PDA

View Full Version : 3 types of curb Curves and the legality of running by them



pferreirag60
23-05-2018, 16:17
Hi,

I just made this drawing sketch to show what i understand is legal or not in PCars2 when running over curbs.

254889


In my view, depending in the type of curbs, this is what type of curbs we can encounter. I think in the top right drawing you will receive a penalty, but in the other two drawings you are ok.

What you think?

Mahjik
23-05-2018, 16:23
It's not that simple, unfortunately. It will be 50% of the car needs to be on the racing circuit. However, "where" the racing circuit is will vary on each track and each corner. Some tracks you can run over the entire curb and the grass outside the curb starts the "out of bounds" area. In other areas/tracks, the curb itself is considered out of bounds so you can only put half of the car on the curb.

ATSS
23-05-2018, 16:28
Two wheels all the time need to be on the curbs / sidelines of the track. That should be the perfect way, not sometimes 50% / sometimes you are off track.
But yeah in tilkedromes example cota you can cut then some corners heh. There is no perfect solution. :/

Keena
23-05-2018, 16:38
Am i right in thinking the white line denotes the boundary? Put all wheels over equals penalty? Kerbs are incidental?

Mahjik
23-05-2018, 16:39
Am i right in thinking the white line denotes the boundary? Put all wheels over equals penalty?

No. It's as it wrote above. 50% of the car needs to be on the racing circuit. What defines the racing circuit may or may not be the "white line".

Keena
23-05-2018, 16:41
Ah ok. Is that an FIA ruling or an SMS one?

pferreirag60
23-05-2018, 16:41
If i didn´t loved PCars2 i had never posted or responded to a topic. But the think that makes me crazy is just the inconsistence in judging curbs, and how you pass them.

I think i must be one of the few that watch races everyday, every type of race, Rally,circuit, ice, kart, motogp, etc... And one think that i noticed, principal in F1 and GT series(IMSA, WEC,Blancpain) if all the drivers everytime they put all four wheels inside an curb, or by mistake they take the 4 wheels of the limit line, they just receive an warning, and not everytime, only if they insist every lap in doing the same, because if it was like in PCars2, no one, I repeat, no one will finish a race without a penalty, I repeat again: Every pilot, had to receive a penalty.

I race exclusivelly in singleplayer mode, and it is a shame that if a just chase an Ai car, and they go all over the curbs sometimes, principal if you are to close to them, they just start to make mistakes, and you are following the ai, that puts all 4 wheels in a curb, you do the same, and....Voilá, penalty time!!!

Keena
23-05-2018, 16:43
No. It's as it wrote above. 50% of the car needs to be on the racing circuit. What defines the racing circuit may or may not be the "white line".

In the case if it not being the white line, what is it that determines the boundary?

Mahjik
23-05-2018, 16:43
Ah ok. Is that an FIA ruling or an SMS one?

Different series have different rule sets and there is no feasible way to implement all them for a racing sim that emcompasses so many different types of racing. This is what SMS decided for PC2. No real information on how it was decided, but that doesn't really matter to be honest as it's what we have today.

Mahjik
23-05-2018, 16:44
In the case if it not being the white line, what is it that determines the boundary?

It could be grass, a wall, a curb, a barrier, etc..

Keena
23-05-2018, 16:49
Ah ok. I was relying on crewchief. Its worth getting to know a circuit well for sure before turning on penalties offline then. Thanks.

Mahjik
23-05-2018, 16:52
Ah ok. I was relying on crewchief. Its worth getting to know a circuit well for sure before turning on penalties offline then. Thanks.

What I found useful was using the replay function when driving offline whenever I got a track cut message. Typically when I view the area from the external view, I was definitely more than 50% off the racing surface. It just didn't appear that way from the cockpit.

Keena
23-05-2018, 17:14
Now that's a good idea. Thanks dude :)

simsimsheree
23-05-2018, 18:46
I think, if a 'racing line guide' can be added to the track, it would be simple to have a switchable track boundary line as well (blue might be nice). I mean, the game already knows exactly where it is.

Set it so that the outside wheels should NEVER touch it or you get a penalty. Then it would be easy to see where you can cheat the curbs a bit, and where you can't. You certainly can't find them by following the AI! They are allowed massively more leeway than we are.

TBH, for me, I think one of the ways the game could be improved bigtime is restricting the AI to exactly the same limits we have, and have them face the same penalties when they abuse track limits. It's weird comparing racing games. GT Sport's AI are restricted to lines FAR tighter than the players, PC2 restricts the players to lines far tighter than the AI...

Both are wrong, IMHO. Same lines for both is obvious. Why either approach is used beats me.

morpwr
23-05-2018, 19:47
Personally I would love to see every race series go to if its not inside the white line its out. Simple and as far as im concerned anything else is cutting the track. Id love to know how the track limits started getting abused so badly in every race series and why it got let go for as long as it has. Unfortunately as long as this gets let go you have no choice but to follow if you want to keep up.

cpcdem
23-05-2018, 20:42
No. It's as it wrote above. 50% of the car needs to be on the racing circuit. What defines the racing circuit may or may not be the "white line".

It was confirmed here some time ago (Bealdor had asked the devs), that it is either that (what you mentioned above), or at least one wheel inside the white lines. So either one wheel inside, or 50% inside the "virtual" circuit. I can confirm this is always the case, in my 100s of hours in time trial mode, where you get an instant message when you brake both of those rules and it is easy to confirm by watching the replay.


Edit: Found this post:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1440422&viewfull=1#post1440422

cpcdem
23-05-2018, 20:53
I think i must be one of the few that watch races everyday, every type of race, Rally,circuit, ice, kart, motogp, etc... And one think that i noticed, principal in F1 and GT series(IMSA, WEC,Blancpain) if all the drivers everytime they put all four wheels inside an curb, or by mistake they take the 4 wheels of the limit line, they just receive an warning, and not everytime, only if they insist every lap in doing the same, because if it was like in PCars2, no one, I repeat, no one will finish a race without a penalty, I repeat again: Every pilot, had to receive a penalty.


This has been discussed A LOT here already, but IMO this is exactly the problem. The definition of track limits is almost perfect I think, but it's the severity on enforcing the rules/track limits that causes the issues. In every real race every driver will go by accident a bit off the track a few times and there will be no consequences, unless it was a blatant cut, or it lead to an overtake. Instead, what we have in PC2 is that you get a very harsh slowdown/penalty, if you even go an inch extra wide, practically gaining absolutely nothing. Instead of focusing on blatant cuts, the game punishes so hard completely unimportant "cuts".

The biggest problem of that, is that a lot of people are getting way too frustrated by it, which makes some leagues running with cut track penalties completely disabled! And that causes then even bigger problems, people need to review the races to check for cuts, definition of "cut" is different between people etc. Please rationalize the system, so we can use it to help producing great races, not causing frustration...

g.stew
23-05-2018, 23:59
Doesn't it also take into account how soon you have 50+% of the car back on the track too after going off? I've found many times if I go off the track and don't cut immediately back on, I won't get a penalty. You're still going to lose a little time but it could be less than the penalty. I'm not sure how it's determined but I just try not to over correct if I'm going off.

Of course, it doesn't help if you're pushing the limits and push a little too far, but then you're taking that risk on purpose anyway for the reward it can bring. If you're not trying to push the limits and just happen to cut trying to evade or recover, you should be able to to avoid the penalty.

Mahjik
24-05-2018, 01:52
It was confirmed here some time ago (Bealdor had asked the devs), that it is either that (what you mentioned above), or at least one wheel inside the white lines. So either one wheel inside, or 50% inside the "virtual" circuit. I can confirm this is always the case, in my 100s of hours in time trial mode, where you get an instant message when you brake both of those rules and it is easy to confirm by watching the replay.

It's actually a little more complicated than that (and I just verified this by looking back at the read-only WMD forums). There is a mask that is applied to the track that stretches from white line to the other side white line. That is considered the racing surface. If the car goes outside the racing surface, there are decision points as to what happens. These decisions are based on the texture outside the white line (tarmac, curb, grass, gravel, etc). What was never explicitly explained is to what happens with each. What we believe happens is tarmac allows up to 4 wheels over before starting the time gained analysis, where are surfaces like curbs and grass only allow 50% of the car over.


Doesn't it also take into account how soon you have 50+% of the car back on the track too after going off?

Yes it does. ;)

specialkone
24-05-2018, 06:35
I’ve been trying Bannochbrae lately. Being the poorly skilled driver that I am, what I do is run default Ai (60%) and figure out what lap times I need to be competitive. At this track with this Mercedes that’s about 2.08.
After practicing, my times are down from 2.17 to 2.07. But I am constantly having trouble with this corner (as you can see from the red lap times). At full throttle I always seem to miss it. It must be my approach because when I look at the videos of the good sim racers going through here, they do not seem to be slowing down.


254943

PS: what a fun track this is.

Racing4Life
24-05-2018, 06:47
The biggest problem of that, is that a lot of people are getting way too frustrated by it, which makes some leagues running with cut track penalties completely disabled! And that causes then even bigger problems, people need to review the races to check for cuts, definition of "cut" is different between people etc. Please rationalize the system, so we can use it to help producing great races, not causing frustration...
+1
I concur ... nearly. ;)

In my opinion the biggest problem is the "tolerance" of cut detection on different tracks, which leads to some kind of frustration.

For example, the cut detection at Nürburgring, Spielberg and Zolder is really great. It's exactly the same way like you know it from other simulations, so you dont need to train yourself to another line. The absolute opposite on well known tracks is Spa, though it got better after the last patch. First Sector is great, too. You even have enough space at the Eau Rouge, curbs at Les Combes can be used widely. Second sector not so good. At Pouhon and the exit of Pouhon you cant barely touch the outer curb without getting a penalty, but you're able to cut at the entry of Pouhon like hell by using the inner curb, if your car height fits. If you like to take a look at this, just load the ghost of the TT-leader with the Porsche 911 RSR and watch his lap.

The third sector is nearly great too since the last patch, except the last left hander at Blanchimont. Again, you cant barely touch the outside curb without getting a penalty.

On the other side there are still some weird penalties which noone really understand. An example for that, the left hander before the chicane at Ruapuna Park Outer Loop. We had a race there a couple of weeks ago, and yes I went a lill wide at that corner. But I know it so I went off throttle directly. But the game didnt care about the fact that I was off throttle, instead it told me to slow down. So I slowed down, before the chicane and even after the chicane, but still the game decided I had to slow down even more. At this point I thought myself, bite me. So I ended up with a penalty of a second, though the entire lap was four seconds slower already.

So there is still room for improvement. :) But dont get me wrong, in my personal opinion there was already a big improvement with the last patch, and only some fine tuning is still left to be done. :)

Zaskarspants
24-05-2018, 09:24
I try to avoid putting more than two wheels over the white line and I only get one or two penalties per 10 laps. I hope that gives me a small amount of latitude if I over do it.

Keena
24-05-2018, 10:01
^ Same, although as an offline player I play with the HUD elements turned off for immersion except for delta widget on one and the telemetry on another so don't get the notification on screen. Also the penalties are not applied to AI offline so for these reasons Ive turned off penalties. It pays not to get into bad habits though hence my adherence of the regulations.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 11:36
To be honest, I've almost always found the tracks limits themselves to be almost perfect. Even in Spa, I think they are very good, but I will check the ghost you mentioned and will correct myself if I see something wrong. One he other hand, for me this is exactly the very big problem:



On the other side there are still some weird penalties which noone really understand. An example for that, the left hander before the chicane at Ruapuna Park Outer Loop. We had a race there a couple of weeks ago, and yes I went a lill wide at that corner. But I know it so I went off throttle directly. But the game didnt care about the fact that I was off throttle, instead it told me to slow down. So I slowed down, before the chicane and even after the chicane, but still the game decided I had to slow down even more. At this point I thought myself, bite me. So I ended up with a penalty of a second, though the entire lap was four seconds slower already.


Exactly, same thing happens to a lot of people all the time. You realize you went just a bit off, you lift for a second, but still get a slowdown message after a while. Then you lift again, and the message does not disappear. You lift more and then you get a penalty. I mean nothing can be more frustrating than that while having close racing.

But the thing is, this is not consistent either, if it was, we would always just take the penalty, get that 1 sec instead of losing 5 in the process of slowing down. But the thing is, that depending on the track and corner, sometimes the message disappears even without slowing down at all! Or in some cases a little slowdown is enough and then you can continue racing. But as it is very inconsistent, then it becomes very important to know how much time the system expects from you to slowdown at each corner. I really hate to say this, but for my next league races, I will be testing how much time the system requires to slowdown after each corner, this has become more useful knowledge, that most other things. Unfortunately this time gained calculation very rarely works nicely, and this is actually to be expected, how can you make it work correctly for so many different car classes that the game has? (Edit: and for so many different people, with different skill levels...)

And before some smart guy tells me to stay within the white lines so I do not need to know how much to give back after a slowdown message, well in a 30 or 50 lap race, it is inevitable that a few times you will accidentally go a bit wide. And if you have 2-3 cars behind you, slowing down means in some cases losing those 2-3 places, because you went an inch wide...And also please keep in mind that offline and online racing is very different. In offline, you get a slowdown and you can easily brake in front of the AI in such a way that they will not overtake you, so usually there's not really a problem. But online this is unacceptable behavior, so such a slowdown really ruins races.

Racing4Life
24-05-2018, 12:35
To be honest, I've almost always found the tracks limits themselves to be almost perfect. Even in Spa, I think they are very good, but I will check the ghost you mentioned and will correct myself if I see something wrong.
Take a look. My personal opinion, move the entire virtual track limits 30-50cm to the right in this left hander, and all is fine. But those are just my $0.02.

I really hate to say this, but for my next league races, I will be testing how much time the system requires to slowdown after each corner, this has become more useful knowledge
Exactly. But afair the plan was to race and not doing math where and how much I can cut to gain an advantage.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 12:58
Take a look. My personal opinion, move the entire virtual track limits 30-50cm to the right in this left hander, and all is fine. But those are just my $0.02.


I think his lines are fine. Close to the limit, but not beyond it, and it's where real drivers go as well, without any risk of invalidating their lap times, as the kerbs are considered part of the track there. (I know this is not written somewhere, but this is how it always works in practice)



Exactly. But afair the plan was to race and not doing math where and how much I can cut to gain an advantage.

Absolutely agreed...

Keena
24-05-2018, 13:47
[QUOTE=cpcdem;1512075]I think his lines are fine. Close to the limit, but not beyond it, and it's where real drivers go as well, without any risk of invalidating their lap times, as the kerbs are considered part of the track there. (I know this is not written somewhere, but this is how it always works in practice)

Redbullring turn 1 exit is a good example.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 14:00
Redbullring turn 1 exit is a good example.

Yes, this corner (and the last one) in RBR gives plenty of space, looks like that green stuff is considered part of the track, like the kerbs. This is where real drivers always used to go as well, until in the last years, at least for the formula 1 they introduced a big sausage kerb there, which the drivers have to avoid, otherwise it slows them down. I'd be fine with the game introducing those as well, maybe even more than actually exist in real life, than handing out time penalties where driver in real races go all the time.

254961

Malcstar
24-05-2018, 14:27
The exploit for that T1 at red bull is to run it all the way to T2 and slow down there. This is almost the case for a lot of off track penalties. Especially if the next turn is at 1st gear. This is where the system is also flawed.

KANETAKER
24-05-2018, 14:43
In addition to all this, due to the current system, many players do not even dare to touch the curbs because in some cases it is enough to just touch them with 2 wheels to receive the order to decelerate, without even having put more than 50% of the car above the curb, but only the 2 wheels (10 or 20%).

Applying the system of the game in the following video, surely Peugeot would have won 24 hours of LeMans 2011 because Lotterer (at the Audi#2) should have slowed down by "cutting" the last chicanes (and the gap was only 13 sec.).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCs8Nvt65uU

In aerial cameras you can appreciate that detail, clearly noting that it has more than 50% of the car outside the limits of the track but keeping 2 wheels inside it, or directly has the whole car on the curbs but at that time assuming that the curbs are considered part of the track. The problem is that the curbs are behind the white line (which delimits the limits of the track) and that prevents players from even touching them,

Racing4Life
24-05-2018, 15:01
I think his lines are fine. Close to the limit, but not beyond it
Really?

I took tje liberty to make some screenshots. :)

1. Entering Pouhon
254962

Imho this is way outside of the track and noone would consider running completely on grass.

2. Middle of Pouhon
254963

Thats really on the edge. I guess one more centimeter and the lap would have been invalid

3. Exit Pouhon
254964

Again imho completely on the edge. And to be honest, I dunno why, but I cant go that far outside. And Yes, I rechecked with the replay. As soon as my wheel start to rattle, because I'm already at the curb the lap is invalid nine out of ten times.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 15:09
In all cases he has at least one wheel inside the white lines, why would you want that to be penalized? There's no racing discipline where this would be considered off-limits as far as I know.

Keena
24-05-2018, 15:47
I wonder if this is the track limit model that was chosen? Would certainly fit into the variable surface conditions.
https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3.pdf

ELAhrairah
24-05-2018, 15:51
This corner at Le Mans, the first Mulsanne chicane, has in my opinion wrong virtual track rules. It basically means ypu cannot take that kerb. It might have changed but I remember it being absolutly idiotic.

254965

Keena
24-05-2018, 15:54
@ ElArairah Im guessing you could take the kerb, just not drop a wheel off the inside of the kerb on the bollard side as we look at it. Whether or not that is the correct choice is beyond my payscale, but Im curious if the set of rules as laid down in the Motorsports Association document in my post above yours is accurate as a ruleset chosen to be implemented in game. If so then it should remove the ambiguity.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 16:02
This corner at Le Mans, the first Mulsanne chicane, has in my opinion wrong virtual track rules. It basically means ypu cannot take that kerb. It might have changed but I remember it being absolutly idiotic.


I think most of the cases where you get a penalty there, it's actually because of a cut or "cut" way earlier, just before the start of the straight, but the system finishes the calculation of if you did gain time or not, at the time you reach the chicane. Very confusing (and often wrong) in my opinion.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 16:05
I wonder if this is the track limit model that was chosen? Would certainly fit into the variable surface conditions.
https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3.pdf

That's interesting, so there do exist leagues that use the rule that no wheel at all must be outside the white lines, thanks for posting! Are there other series that use that, too?

Racing4Life
24-05-2018, 16:11
In all cases he has at least one wheel inside the white lines, why would you want that to be penalized? There's no racing discipline where this would be considered off-limits as far as I know.

I absolutely comply with you. From the start I've said "one part of the car between the lines is fine." And always the answer was, you have to stay completely within the line, max 50% out. The first picture is "a lill more" out the third likewise. But for me its ok.

I just dont get why I always get a penalty whenever I try to go that wide. Except for the first image; Tried that once, resulted in a high speed impact. ;)

Maybe I'll make a video and compare it with the screenshots. But not today, I'm already done after ten hours at the office.

Keena
24-05-2018, 16:18
That's interesting, so there do exist leagues that use the rule that no wheel at all must be outside the white lines, thanks for posting! Are there other series that use that, too?

https://www.msauk.org/Events/MSA-Championships

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 16:19
I absolutely comply with you. From the start I've said "one part of the car between the lines is fine." And always the answer was, you have to stay completely within the line, max 50% out. The first picture is "a lill more" out the third likewise. But for me its ok.

I just dont get why I always get a penalty whenever I try to go that wide. Except for the first image; Tried that once, resulted in a high speed impact. ;)

Maybe I'll make a video and compare it with the screenshots. But not today, I'm already done after ten hours at the office.

Oh, there had been A LOT of times where I had the same question like you, why on earth I am getting an invalidation, while I was still with 2 wheels on the white lines. Until I reviewed the replay and EVERY single time I realized I had actually gone a bit off :). Maybe just a few centimeters, but indeed all wheels out. Check your replays, too, I am sure you will also be surprised at first, but you will see the same thing.

Just keep in mind though, that sometimes you get an invalidation/slowdown warning while taking a turn, not because you went wide in that turn, but because of a cut earlier in the lap. The cut tracking detection is I think very good, but the general penalty implementation has a lot of problems in my opinion.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 16:21
https://www.msauk.org/Events/MSA-Championships

Hehe! OK, I meant a league run by a different federation than MSA :)

Keena
24-05-2018, 16:58
Hehe! OK, I meant a league run by a different federation than MSA :)

;) Now that I don't know. I might have a poke around on the FIA website later as a start. Life is exciting here in our house obviously ;)

Sampo
24-05-2018, 20:03
I added a new version of pc2info because of this discussion. You can see what kind of terrain the game thinks is under the tyres and other stats as well. The number of tyres shown on track is just my interpretation of the info the game gives out. Only for PC with the memory map interface for now (working on udp, but slowly). There could be better programs that show this kind of info.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?60868-PC2Info-a-PC-program-that-shows-most-memory-mapped-stats-the-game-provides

Dave White
25-05-2018, 14:28
I added a new version of pc2info because of this discussion. You can see what kind of terrain the game thinks is under the tyres and other stats as well. The number of tyres shown on track is just my interpretation of the info the game gives out. Only for PC with the memory map interface for now (working on udp, but slowly)
It would be great to have an app like this which could indicate immediately when you fully exceed the track limits (with an audible alarm) so that we can tell when we are just over the limit and lift off a little to avoid the heavy slowdown penalty that comes if we wait for the warning to appear. Personally I'd need the udp version as I'm on PS4, but it'd be great to have it at some point.

simsimsheree
25-05-2018, 20:06
The inconsistencies from corner to corner and track to track is really why I think a nice blue 'Limit Line' option (like the racing line guide) ought to be in the game. Basically, put a wheel on it at all and get the penalty. Pretty easy to see, easy to practice with, easy to watch a replay and see that you DID touch it...

I guess it would be different depending on car width, but that's easy enough to calculate ('move line 3" inwards', 'move line 6" outwards', etc.) and display. Or possibly anchor the outside of the line and vary its width depending on car width.

I think it could be done, and mitigate a lot of the complaints.

And yes, I completely agree with the complaints about the slowdown exploits. Several corners can be cut scot free because the penalty system regards slowing for the next corner as you serving the penalty. Doh!

If only SMS would abandon slowdowns altogether (which exist in no real life series AFAIK, because of safety concerns) and simply have time penalties that cannot be lost at all (until you do a drive-through, at least!), most of the angst disappears. Slowing for the next corner wouldn't mitigate the penalty, for sure! And a ton of racing incidents would disappear with cars slowing on the racing line.

belaki
26-05-2018, 15:04
After complaining about it I finally determined that its part of my job to identify the acceptable track limits during practice. It varies with each course and the 50% rule is not a sufficient rule to work under. If I have to jump into a Clio and drive the course at 10 mph, I'll do it. When I'm finished I know the actual track boundaries and then its my judgement as to where and when to push the track limit, and I usually know before the race director whether or not I caused a violation.

More importantly, I'll know what mistake was made prior to the violation that put me out of position.


It's a little painstaking, but you'll appreciate the insights you'll discover.

simsimsheree
26-05-2018, 17:33
After complaining about it I finally determined that its part of my job to identify the acceptable track limits during practice. It varies with each course and the 50% rule is not a sufficient rule to work under. If I have to jump into a Clio and drive the course at 10 mph, I'll do it. When I'm finished I know the actual track boundaries and then its my judgement as to where and when to push the track limit, and I usually know before the race director whether or not I caused a violation.

More importantly, I'll know what mistake was made prior to the violation that put me out of position.


It's a little painstaking, but you'll appreciate the insights you'll discover.

This...

Mind you, a visible 'track boundary line' could certainly speed up this process.