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Rodders
23-05-2018, 19:14
This is a request to ask if there is any chance that the track cut penalty system could be changed to a strike based system in PCars 2? Or the option to have a strike based instead of slowdown based system at the hosts discretion?

Can I ask forum posters - please please please don't turn this into a debate about what is or isn't wrong with the current system. I'm not here to debate that. This is a simple question if it is possible it could be changed so that instead of a slow down the server host can set a threshold on how may cuts are allowed before a drive through is given to the player?

My reason for asking this - the current penalty system is by far the largest contention point of anything in the game (bar maybe the driver rating depending who you speak to :)). This became really clear while in the process of trying to setup a 4 club league and whether penalties are on or off has been a real bone of contention (All clubs agree the current system in PCars 2 is terrible (as bad as it's been), especially for league racing in tight packs but the ball ache of having to manually monitor races for cutting has led to a split vote on the matter).

I'll get down on my knees and beg if I have to. OK I'm on my knees now. I've clasped my hands to my chest. I'm looking up with big puppy dog eyes. Pweeeeeaaase say there's hope? You'll change this :dispirited: to this :glee:

Cheers.

simsimsheree
23-05-2018, 19:29
Can't you simply ignore the slow down penalty and accept the time subtraction penalty? You can set how many of those you can get before forced to do a drive-through, right?

That's pretty much how it works in some real life series.

AbeWoz
23-05-2018, 19:39
Can't you simply ignore the slow down penalty and accept the time subtraction penalty? You can set how many of those you can get before forced to do a drive-through, right?

That's pretty much how it works in some real life series.

no. there are no real-life series that give you penalties the way PC2 does.

you get multiple warnings for exceeding track limits, and then drivethrus, and stop and hold penalties are given.

F1 has their own odd-ball system that might be close to PC2, but you still get multiple warnings before time penalties are assessed.

cpcdem
23-05-2018, 20:58
I am also prepared to beg on my knees for introducing something like this! :)
Also in my opinion, the current penalty system is by far the single most annoying aspect of the game right now, at least for online racing.

Mad Al
23-05-2018, 21:18
no. there are no real-life series that give you penalties the way PC2 does.

you get multiple warnings for exceeding track limits, and then drivethrus, and stop and hold penalties are given.

F1 has their own odd-ball system that might be close to PC2, but you still get multiple warnings before time penalties are assessed.

You should try watching the French Moto3 Grand Prix from last week, they were handing out time penalties all through the race.. and those were not just add 5 seconds, these were all calculated in the exact way PC2 does it... you cut a corner, they calculate how much you gained and slap that on your time whilst still racing.. no BS after the event.

cpcdem
23-05-2018, 21:23
You should try watching the French Moto3 Grand Prix from last week, they were handing out time penalties all through the race.. and those were not just add 5 seconds, these were all calculated in the exact way PC2 does it... you cut a corner, they calculate how much you gained and slap that on your time whilst still racing.. no BS after the event.

We will never agree on that I am afraid. As Rodders said, I think there's no point discussing (anymore, it's been discussed so much already!) what is the right and wrong way, all he asked for, and I absolutely concur, is to give us the option to control ourselves how much harsh the system should be. Nothing more than that.

Rodders
23-05-2018, 23:02
Can't you simply ignore the slow down penalty and accept the time subtraction penalty? You can set how many of those you can get before forced to do a drive-through, right?

That's pretty much how it works in some real life series.

If penalties are on that's what I do atm and I encourage others to do the same.

Mad Al
23-05-2018, 23:03
nobodies arguing, just pointing out that any series could indeed run the same system as used in game.. the tech is available, as shown by the Moto GP series..

Gromran
24-05-2018, 12:44
If penalties are on that's what I do atm and I encourage others to do the same.
So you want to change the system because you can't drive?

Charger
24-05-2018, 13:28
So you want to change the system because you can't drive?

Lol, come race with us, he can drive, it has nothing to do with his ability, we want a 3 strike system or something similar instead of having to slow down which is counter productive to close door to door racing.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 13:37
Lol, come race with us, he can drive, it has nothing to do with his ability, we want a 3 strike system or something similar instead of having to slow down which is counter productive to close door to door racing.

Exactly.

Btw, I think there's already some kind of 3 strike system, if you get a few warnings and choose to not slowdown, but take the 1 or 2 seconds penalty instead, then after the 3rd or so time, you get an extreme 15 penalty or so. And that renders useless also the workaround we have, to just take the penalties, instead of slowing down and have the door to door race ruined. Does not seem to happen always, maybe it's track specific, or corner specific.

Personally I think we need an option to adjust the calculation of time gained/needed to be given back, with a 1...10 or similar slider. Then we can check for ourselves and calibrate it so that people who blatantly cut the track receive harsh penalties, but brief off track moments are not being penalized. Which is what happens in real life racing, too...

rich1e I
24-05-2018, 14:26
but brief off track moments are not being penalized. Which is what happens in real life racing, too...

That's wrong. Track limits are being enforced very strictly in RL. I don't know how you come to this conclusion.
Ian Bell once said here on the forums that warnings are not coming because it's going to be exploited. How should that work out? I have 2 free off-tracks and gain a few seconds, after that I'll be a good boi? Doesn't work.
I think the main problem is that people don't want to adjust their driving. If you're door to door with another car and the next turn is too tight for 2 cars someone has to back off. You can't go 2 wide through Eau Rouge, it doesn't work. People want to go 3 wide through tight hairpins because they're 'battling', run out of space and go completely off-track because nobody wants to give up his position? I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that. Rules say we must stay on track all of the time, so I have to adjust my driving and if I make a mistake I'll have to take the penalty.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 14:29
OK, let me rephrase. Brief, accidental off track moments that gain you nothing, are not penalized in real life racing.

KANETAKER
24-05-2018, 14:30
I understand that this system of 3 strikes works like this: The first 2 times you cut a curve or abuse the limits of the track you only receive a warning, and only on the 3rd occasion should the order to reduce your speed appear (or to give up the position if you had a car stuck behind you) at the cost of receiving a time penalty or a DT. And the same sanction must be increased progressively in case the offender is recidivist:

+ 5s> + 10s> + 15s> + 20s> DT or + 25s> Stop & Go (10 sec.) Or + 35s> Stop & Go (1 min.)> DQ.

But my question would be if that should apply only for each curve separately? Or if it would be in general in a single round? That is, in the last case assuming that in a single round a player commits 3 or 4 curve cuts or abuse of the track limits.

On the other hand, in the case of runway limits, some cases have to be reviewed where the system unjustly imposes sanctions for that reason, when in fact in some sectors or curves, exceeding the runway limits does not imply any advantage and on the contrary, it means losing more time than one would gain, which worsens if, after losing time, we are forced to lose even more time than we have lost making an error. Or perhaps it is an artificial and unreal way of compensating in certain curves the absence of gravel that existed until several years ago and that instead were replaced with asphalt loopholes. Some Examples: SPA (2nd sector), Hockenheim (1st and last corner), Monza (parabolica), LeMans (Arnage, Porsche and Corvette curves).

Rodders
24-05-2018, 14:36
So you want to change the system because you can't drive?

I'll ignore the (wrong) assumption I want this as I can't stay on track.

Some have mentioned that we could essentially use the current system to have a pseudo strike based system as it is (ignore the cut , take the second(s) penalty and then when you get enough of them you get a drive through anyway (this is set by the host between 5-30 seconds - as soon as you get that amount of time penalty you get a drive through).

The difference between that and a true strike based system is that currently for every cut you get penalised - 1 second, 3 seconds, 5 seconds - drive through. If you never reach the threshold for a drive through you still have the few seconds penalty.

A true strike based system gives no penalty until that threshold is met. This means you can make the odd little mistake or get the odd cut (for example when avoiding what would otherwise be an accident) and it has no effect on you. One of the problems with just taking the penalty seconds is that at the end of the race places can be lost just because of those few seconds, and in league and event racing where it's close, this matters. What would otherwise be an epic fight is reduced to who got the most penalty seconds (often through no fault of their own or even worse, for taking avoiding action to stop a larger incident occurring - penalised for doing the right thing).

So ignoring the cuts is a partial workaround of the current system but it's not a proper alternative for a true strike based system.


And to go back to my original post - I'm not demanding this is changed, I am simply asking if it's possible it might be? I'd just like to know if there is a chance SMS have the dev time/inclination/desire etc to change it or if it's the case that this will not change in PCars2. I'd just like to know one way or the other. I'd be over the moon if it will be.

Nakamuza
24-05-2018, 14:43
Lol, come race with us, he can drive, it has nothing to do with his ability, we want a 3 strike system or something similar instead of having to slow down which is counter productive to close door to door racing.

Yea a warning would be nice as receiving a big slow down penalty because you were pushed wide trying to overtake someone on the outside rather dampens the excitement of making such a move. Also some corners are bugged and even with 2 wheel inside of the white line you still receive a slow down penalty, whereas with a strike based or similar system both of these instances wouldn't ruin the racing.

Rodders
24-05-2018, 14:45
I understand that this system of 3 strikes works like this: The first 2 times you cut a curve or abuse the limits of the track you only receive a warning, and only on the 3rd occasion should the order to reduce your speed appear (or to give up the position if you had a car stuck behind you) at the cost of receiving a time penalty or a DT. And the same sanction must be increased progressively in case the offender is recidivist:

+ 5s> + 10s> + 15s> + 20s> DT or + 25s> Stop & Go (10 sec.) Or + 35s> Stop & Go (1 min.)> DQ.

But my question would be if that should apply only for each curve separately? Or if it would be in general in a single round? That is, in the last case assuming that in a single round a player commits 3 or 4 curve cuts or abuse of the track limits.

On the other hand, in the case of runway limits, some cases have to be reviewed where the system unjustly imposes sanctions for that reason, when in fact in some sectors or curves, exceeding the runway limits does not imply any advantage and on the contrary, it means losing more time than one would gain, which worsens if, after losing time, we are forced to lose even more time than we have lost making an error. Or perhaps it is an artificial and unreal way of compensating in certain curves the absence of gravel that existed until several years ago and that instead were replaced with asphalt loopholes. Some Examples: SPA (2nd sector), Hockenheim (1st and last corner), Monza (parabolica), LeMans (Arnage, Porsche and Corvette curves).

I'll use the strike system I've experience of which was in AMS to answer this.

In AMS the host could set the threshold cuts that meant a DT - I think it was from 3 to 10.

These cuts were accumulative over any part of the track. You could theoretically get a DT over just one lap or even a small section of the track if you done several cuts in a row. Any cut meant a single strike no matter how large or small - tiny apex cut or an entire chicane jumped over - 1 strike.

This did open up the possibility to abuse the system where, for example, the threshold is 3 cuts and you get none the entire race then on the final lap decide to just drive over 2 chicanes, gain 10 seconds and get no penalty for it. However, huge cuts like that are rather easy to spot so, certainly in league and events that clubs run (that will be reviewed) anyone doing this will be caught and there will be consequences so it simply doesn't happen. I'd consider kicking anyone out RWB that tried to do this as frankly it's not the sort of attitude I want in the club.

In pub lobbies it could be more of a problem but again, good lobbies are admin'd and certainly in RWB lobbies anyone doing this sort of thing will be kicked pretty quick and likely end up on our server blacklist. So again the potential exploit of the approach can me easily mitigated.

I think the perfect solution would be for the host to have the option of what system to use.

And to re-iterate my original ask - I just want to know if there is hope the system might be changed. Just a yes or a no from SMS would give me hope or remove false hope ;)

rich1e I
24-05-2018, 14:56
Rodders, can you trust your community and club members? Why not turn the penalty system off for your leagues and club races?

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 15:03
This did open up the possibility to abuse the system where, for example, the threshold is 3 cuts and you get none the entire race then on the final lap decide to just drive over 2 chicanes, gain 10 seconds and get no penalty for it. However, huge cuts like that are rather easy to spot so, certainly in league and events that clubs run (that will be reviewed) anyone doing this will be caught and there will be consequences so it simply doesn't happen. I'd consider kicking anyone out RWB that tried to do this as frankly it's not the sort of attitude I want in the club.


Additionally, the game already distinguishes complete cuts to going wide moments. So blatant cuts can continue being heavily penalized (as they should), but give as a 3-strike or similar system for the brief off track moments.

pferreirag60
24-05-2018, 15:15
That's wrong. Track limits are being enforced very strictly in RL. I don't know how you come to this conclusion.
Ian Bell once said here on the forums that warnings are not coming because it's going to be exploited. How should that work out? I have 2 free off-tracks and gain a few seconds, after that I'll be a good boi? Doesn't work.
I think the main problem is that people don't want to adjust their driving. If you're door to door with another car and the next turn is too tight for 2 cars someone has to back off. You can't go 2 wide through Eau Rouge, it doesn't work. People want to go 3 wide through tight hairpins because they're 'battling', run out of space and go completely off-track because nobody wants to give up his position? I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that. Rules say we must stay on track all of the time, so I have to adjust my driving and if I make a mistake I'll have to take the penalty.

I´m sure we aren´t seeing the same races! What I see, and I look at all kinds of races everyday(petrol Head). In every type of races I see, there are time penalty for infringing the track limits, but they are aplied only if you do the same, more than 3 times, otherwise you will only receive warnings. So... you are totally wrong in your conclusions.

Only the slow players are ok with the current penalty system.... A fast player will make a small or more mistakes during a long race( my small races are 40 minutes long). Just watch any GT race, and you will notice that every drive sometimes will put all four wheels outside the track limits, but will only receive a penalty if they repeat the same thing more than at least two times.(In real life you only gain time if cuting chicanes, but in curves, if go outside of the limits, you are loosing time.

rich1e I
24-05-2018, 15:45
I´m sure we aren´t seeing the same races! What I see, and I look at all kinds of races everyday(petrol Head). In every type of races I see, there are time penalty for infringing the track limits, but they are aplied only if you do the same, more than 3 times, otherwise you will only receive warnings. So... you are totally wrong in your conclusions.

Only the slow players are ok with the current penalty system.... A fast player will make a small or more mistakes during a long race( my small races are 40 minutes long). Just watch any GT race, and you will notice that every drive sometimes will put all four wheels outside the track limits, but will only receive a penalty if they repeat the same thing more than at least two times.(In real life you only gain time if cuting chicanes, but in curves, if go outside of the limits, you are loosing time.

That's absolutely possible that we're not watching the same races. As soon as you get a warning as a driver track limits are being enforced.

Edit: Staying on track in RL is normal because it's safer. Team owner, teammates, mechanics and sponsors are not so happy when you wreck the car. That's why they get warnings when it happens. In virtual racing going off track has no consequences, that's why a warning system would be a joke because staying on track is absolutely not normal.

Rodders
24-05-2018, 16:01
Rodders, can you trust your community and club members? Why not turn the penalty system off for your leagues and club races?

I trust my club members but this isn't a matter of trust. With limits off people inevitably don't try so hard not to cut and bad habits drift in, even simply not appreciating they are cutting certain corners each lap. This leads to having to go back to the old style manual race review for cutting which is very time consuming.

Basically some form of track cut monitoring is always required. Take any bunch of humans put to any activity and without controlled boundaries there is an inevitable drift towards disorder. If everyone in the club were ultra disciplined individuals then it might just be possible, but they are not. They are normal peeps with all the flaws that can entail.

Mahjik
24-05-2018, 16:14
OK, let me rephrase. Brief, accidental off track moments that gain you nothing, are not penalized in real life racing.

That actually depends. In some situations, it is.. I don't know if you recall the Mexico F1 race, but the drivers were told one specific corner would be penalized for any deviation and they were (for even small infractions).

However, to be honest, it's nearly impossible to do it in real time today for every corner. If it was feasible, I'm sure some sports would look at some automated way to do it but it would requirement investments in the tracks, not just cars which doesn't really make it feasible. In a computer realm, developers have more control and more data to automate things that are costly to do in real life..

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 16:34
That actually depends. In some situations, it is.. I don't know if you recall the Mexico F1 race, but the drivers were told one specific corner would be penalized for any deviation and they were (for even small infractions).

However, to be honest, it's nearly impossible to do it in real time today for every corner. If it was feasible, I'm sure some sports would look at some automated way to do it but it would requirement investments in the tracks, not just cars which doesn't really make it feasible. In a computer realm, developers have more control and more data to automate things that are costly to do in real life..

I do not recall that particular one, but yeah, I do remember other F1 races, where they had warned the drivers for specific corners. But that was for corners where you could indeed gain a lot of time by doing a small cut or going wide (like one of the last turns in Yas Marina) and I agree those cases should be penalized.

But the current situation we have in PC2 is that we often gain absolutely nothing or even lose a bit going just a bit wide in some corners, in others we go wide and anyway we have to lift, as we have 2 wheels on the grass, but the system still gives us a slowdown. And even worse, many times we slow down a lot and still get a time penalty at the end.

I completely understand it that it is impossible to make the system perfect, a compromise needs to be used. But currently the compromise used is to very often heavily penalize drivers who play by the rules and have the odd off track moments... I think it needs to become a lot more lenient for those minor going wide moments, or much better, let us customize it the way we feel fits better during online racing.

Zaskarspants
24-05-2018, 16:55
I am quite relaxed about penalties but I do not play online so the pain they inflict is dulled by the knowledge i can restart.

If off track car damage is scaled down by the simulation scaling it up may provide a realistic way of discouraging going wide.

fresquito
24-05-2018, 17:32
I'd like a strike system, but I think the current system is fine as it is now. It was awful in the past, but not anymore, IMO. So, in other words, I'd like a strike system because I find it more realistic, not because I think the current system is annoying or poorly implemented.

Charger
24-05-2018, 18:02
Let's get this into context first, when we are talking about cuts i.e. running through a chicane, the game does a good job of detecting those and gives you an appropriate penalty, these are very few in my experience.

We are talking about extends that get harshly punished in the heat of battle, having to run a foot wider in an overtake and you get a slow down or avoiding a crash in front of you and you go around and get a give position back penalty, sometimes they just make no sense.

This one rule for kerbs and one rule for white lines is confusing, I have always been under the assumption that 2 wheels on the tarmac is a legal move but sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, it seems random.

Try COTA for 50 laps with 32 real people and come back and tell me the extending penalties are fair!

simsimsheree
24-05-2018, 19:39
I think the OP simply refuses to acknowledge that his system will be gamed to hell if you get a certain number of 'freebies'. The unscrupulous will look to using them when most advantageous, when they offer the most tactical advantage, when they offer the most opportunity to gain a position...

The OP thinks this is simply a way to mitigate accidental offs, but the truth is, any advantage offered will be abused by those looking more to winning than emulating the sport properly.

For me the larger issue is, firstly, the slowdown penalty. That is definitely not used in any real series (AFAIK) due to the obvious danger posed to other cars (as we all well know!). If SMS remain wedded to this stupid idea, which has nothing whatsoever to do with 'simming', they at least ought to allow the penalty to be served ONLY well offline, and preferably ONLY in designated 'slow zones' that other drivers will know to avoid. Either that, or a draconian penalty for causing contact with the car behind while serving a slowdown penalty. At least 30sec. That ought to incentivize finding somewhere safe to do it!

Secondly, although not an online issue, it is in a way, as many learn the track and the game from playing the AI. Why the AI are scripted to massively abuse track limits the player isn't allowed to is firstly setting a very bad example, and secondly, not preparing the player for dealing with idiots slowing down to serve the stupid penalty. If the AI cut, they should serve the same penalty as the player. And their track limits should be identical to us. If they can't be scripted to follow our limits (I see no reason why not... Gran Turismo has always managed AI scripting that has them abide by even tighter track limits than the player!), then we should be allowed to follow theirs.

But this '3 freebies' idea simply ignores what less scrupulous players will do with it. It is a fantasy, no closer to reality than the system he rails against.

Charger
24-05-2018, 19:48
I think the OP simply refuses to acknowledge that his system will be gamed to hell if you get a certain number of 'freebies'. The unscrupulous will look to using them when most advantageous, when they offer the most tactical advantage, when they offer the most opportunity to gain a position...

The OP thinks this is simply a way to mitigate accidental offs, but the truth is, any advantage offered will be abused by those looking more to winning than emulating the sport properly.

For me the larger issue is, firstly, the slowdown penalty. That is definitely not used in any real series (AFAIK) due to the obvious danger posed to other cars (as we all well know!). If SMS remain wedded to this stupid idea, which has nothing whatsoever to do with 'simming', they at least ought to allow the penalty to be served ONLY well offline, and preferably ONLY in designated 'slow zones' that other drivers will know to avoid. Either that, or a draconian penalty for causing contact with the car behind while serving a slowdown penalty. At least 30sec. That ought to incentivize finding somewhere safe to do it!

Secondly, although not an online issue, it is in a way, as many learn the track and the game from playing the AI. Why the AI are scripted to massively abuse track limits the player isn't allowed to is firstly setting a very bad example, and secondly, not preparing the player for dealing with idiots slowing down to serve the stupid penalty. If the AI cut, they should serve the same penalty as the player. And their track limits should be identical to us. If they can't be scripted to follow our limits (I see no reason why not... Gran Turismo has always managed AI scripting that has them abide by even tighter track limits than the player!), then we should be allowed to follow theirs.

But this '3 freebies' idea simply ignores what less scrupulous players will do with it. It is a fantasy, no closer to reality than the system he rails against.

Well AMS did it well and if you are doing 50 laps having a 3 strike system with no slowdowns is preferable, whichever way you do it slowdowns should not be part of racing that we agree on.

Rodders
24-05-2018, 19:57
I think the OP simply refuses to acknowledge that his system will be gamed to hell if you get a certain number of 'freebies'. The unscrupulous will look to using them when most advantageous, when they offer the most tactical advantage, when they offer the most opportunity to gain a position...

The OP thinks this is simply a way to mitigate accidental offs, but the truth is, any advantage offered will be abused by those looking more to winning than emulating the sport properly.

For me the larger issue is, firstly, the slowdown penalty. That is definitely not used in any real series (AFAIK) due to the obvious danger posed to other cars (as we all well know!). If SMS remain wedded to this stupid idea, which has nothing whatsoever to do with 'simming', they at least ought to allow the penalty to be served ONLY well offline, and preferably ONLY in designated 'slow zones' that other drivers will know to avoid. Either that, or a draconian penalty for causing contact with the car behind while serving a slowdown penalty. At least 30sec. That ought to incentivize finding somewhere safe to do it!

Secondly, although not an online issue, it is in a way, as many learn the track and the game from playing the AI. Why the AI are scripted to massively abuse track limits the player isn't allowed to is firstly setting a very bad example, and secondly, not preparing the player for dealing with idiots slowing down to serve the stupid penalty. If the AI cut, they should serve the same penalty as the player. And their track limits should be identical to us. If they can't be scripted to follow our limits (I see no reason why not... Gran Turismo has always managed AI scripting that has them abide by even tighter track limits than the player!), then we should be allowed to follow theirs.

But this '3 freebies' idea simply ignores what less scrupulous players will do with it. It is a fantasy, no closer to reality than the system he rails against.

So I wrote this a few posts back:

"This did open up the possibility to abuse the system where, for example, the threshold is 3 cuts and you get none the entire race then on the final lap decide to just drive over 2 chicanes, gain 10 seconds and get no penalty for it. However, huge cuts like that are rather easy to spot so, certainly in league and events that clubs run (that will be reviewed) anyone doing this will be caught and there will be consequences so it simply doesn't happen. I'd consider kicking anyone out RWB that tried to do this as frankly it's not the sort of attitude I want in the club.

In pub lobbies it could be more of a problem but again, good lobbies are admin'd and certainly in RWB lobbies anyone doing this sort of thing will be kicked pretty quick and likely end up on our server blacklist. So again the potential exploit of the approach can me easily mitigated. "

Care to reword the insult you just threw at me? Top tip - if you want to make a point and especially if it involves insulting someone, try and have half a clue what you are talking about.

I actually have experience of a strikes based system. I very much doubt you do.

theoracleprodigy
24-05-2018, 20:59
By far the biggest issues I have seen with the track limits are when avoiding cars. I have had so many issues with people crashing and you have to run around them. Then you are told to go back to x place. So you have to wait for other to get off the grass and then pass you again. I don't know how you resolve for that though because people could take advantage of it. I guess if the system could look at the track and somehow acknowledge that an accident happened which you didn't take part of then you shouldn't get a penalty.

Other than that I have seen tracks which seem to have odd limits. I can't think of the track now but every time you cut a corner by the pits area it gives you a penalty. I know they fixed it a bit but it used to be so bad you couldn't even be on the track toward the inside without sometimes throwing a dq for pit speed. You can still get flagged on that track though and not go over any curb. I think that is Hockenheimring on the last corner before the start finish.

I think Spa-Francorchamps on eau rouge is too quick to penalize as well and could think of many other examples like that. I agree with the OP if nothing is gained then you shouldn't get a penalty. Often when you exceed limits your in a bad spot already. You have lost time and now you have a penalty on top of it. I don't mind something saying you have exceeded track limits but if nothing is gained why should you have an extra penalty on top of it? Clearly cutting a chicane is quite different than exceeding a limit which already slowed you down.

simsimsheree
24-05-2018, 20:59
Rodders, it's not an insult. It is simply once again a demonstration that this idea is something that a) only works in high lap count rooms, which is hardly indicative of the situation in most public lobbies (don't pretend for one minute that, if this idea is offered as an option, casual users will enable it and make low lap count racing even more of a gamer hell), and that it still ignores the reality of gaming. You already acknowledge the exploit, but simply don't care one iota what it does to casual racing.

Any idea that ONLY works in well administered league rooms, doing high lap count tightly regulated racing will be abused in situations where it can.

SMS face the dilemma, do you make a game ONLY for hardcore league simmers (and probably go out of business) or do you set up systems that work for both types of player (and probably anger both!)?

Bottom line, way I see it, this is a hardcore response to an issue that shouldn't even affect tightly regulated leagues. You know the track boundaries. Don't exceed them! If in a top league, you definitely have the skills... and you have the review capabilities. But you are asking for something to be unleashed on the more casual players that will make it even worse than it already is. So, pocket your outrage and try to view the game from more than your limited needs.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 21:08
Rodders, it's not an insult. It is simply once again a demonstration that this idea is something that a) only works in high lap count rooms, which is hardly indicative of the situation in most public lobbies (don't pretend for one minute that, if this idea is offered as an option, casual users will enable it and make low lap count racing even more of a gamer hell), and that it still ignores the reality of gaming. You already acknowledge the exploit, but simply don't care one iota what it does to casual racing.


Why do you still ignore the fact that there will be no exploit? The game already recognizes track cuts, those can still be penalized as they are now. We just need more control on the other cases, minor going wide excursions.

simsimsheree
24-05-2018, 21:13
Wide excursions can provide advantage. That's why there IS an outer track boundary! And why there is a penalty, IRL as well as gaming.

Bottom line is, you are setting up SMS for a massive amount of work (and possibly tax the system even higher than it now is) to go back to every track, and minutely examine every boundary, with every type of car and every type of weather, to find out which ones do give advantage and which ones don't...

BTW, read the OP... He is specifically talking about cuts.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 21:18
Bottom line is, you are setting up SMS for a massive amount of work (and possibly tax the system even higher than it now is) to go back to every track, and minutely examine every boundary, with every type of car and every type of weather, to find out which ones do give advantage and which ones don't...

I am sorry, but what any of that has to do with what we are discussing here?

simsimsheree
24-05-2018, 21:47
You mean the bit about thinking that this only has to do with running wide? LOL

Rodders
24-05-2018, 22:31
Bottom line is, you are setting up SMS for a massive amount of work (and possibly tax the system even higher than it now is) to go back to every track, and minutely examine every boundary, with every type of car and every type of weather, to find out which ones do give advantage and which ones don't...


Mate are you even reading what I write or don't understand it? You previous point you said I don't acknowledge something I specifically covered and now you complain I am setting up SMS for a massive amount of work and I already said I am asking if it is possible this will be changed - ie I am asking a question and I could get a yes or no answer. 3 times here I made a point of making it clear I just wanted to know if it was possible this could happen. If I do get an official response and it's a no I know there is a good chance that it is because it is too much work for what they think isn't an important enough issue to warrant it. And while I'd be disappointed that's fair enough. I asked a question, I got an answer. Tis all I want.

I'm all for debate and discussion but all you are doing is causing friction by directly making out I have no idea what I'm talking about or am otherwise some sort of unreasonable person demanding change. Neither is true so yeah, damn right I find it insulting, especially after I took great care in what I asked and how I asked it.

I very much doubt you even know how much work this would actually be to introduce to the game so again are making bold assertive statements that are based on your imagination rather than observation or fact.

Charger
24-05-2018, 22:44
Simsimsheree, I mean no disrespect here but you play on console and I am not sure if there are differences here as we play on PC, this isn't about just for leagues, 90% of our racing is nightly 5 or 6 lap races with 10 min qualy, the problem exists there also, these extension penalties and having to slow down are killing pack racing full stop, we have maybe an average of 15 random racers in our open lobbies each night, we monitor them so that people that do cut and ram are ejected, we monitor them the same way we do our league races.

We are not asking for it to be more hardcore but an extra option where we could choose between getting an instant penalty for an extension to adding an option for a 3 strike or some sort of system where you get warnings and if you don't clean up your act you get a time penalty or drive thru, it is the slowing down bit we have a problem with, I can't think of any real life racing where slowdowns are imposed as it is dangerous, penalties are issued by officials during a race or post race and give DT's or time penalties.

The worst thing you can have when you have maybe 6 people behind you is to slow down, it causes carnage, there is also the issue with these penalties where you run off a tiny bit and are fighting to get back on track you have already lost time and then get a slowdown and you do slowdown but it doesn't go away, hence you have been penalised 3 times for an incident you actually gained no time for in the first place.

SMS have catered for every type of person to make it as pick up and play as possible, controller players have more assists to help them out as well, so I don't see how this is going to make it more hardcore, in fact the opposite it makes it safer for all and people can keep close racing and take any penalty after.

People that say keep within the track limits are obviously not doing any close racing with fast players going 3 into a corner, yes you have to yield on some corners but is it fair the the guy on the inside can go tight and cut the track slightly but the guy on the outside who can easily hold the line gets slightly pushed and get a slowdown for going 6 inches over an imposed limit even when he still maybe has 2 tyres on track, no it isn't.

Also anyone that says they have never got a penalty for avoiding an accident in front of them and done exactly the right thing and drove around and not got a give position back is a dreamer, that is just wrong in my opinion.

Oh and FYI, IRacing really only cater for hardcore simmers and they do rather well out of it and are not going out of business soon, I personally don't play it as I don't like their pricing model, I like PCars because it does cater for all levels and can be pick up and play or as hardcore as you want it to be, I personally have spent over 3k on immersion because I enjoy this game even with it's flaws but this slowdown thing is one thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

cpcdem
24-05-2018, 23:54
^^^ Very nicely summed up Charger. This post can be used as a very good reference to anybody asking what is the problem with the penalty system as is implemented now.

I would only add that online racing is very different to offline, in offline races you don't care if you cause an accident behind you by slowing down, you can also make sure that nobody passes you when you do that. In online racing, that's completely different, so those of you who only race offline and are happy with the way it is now, please understand that for those of us who mostly race online, the situation is very different and it does cause real problems to plenty of people.

Charger
25-05-2018, 00:39
^^^ Very nicely summed up Charger. This post can be used as a very good reference to anybody asking what is the problem with the penalty system as is implemented now.

I would only add that online racing is very different to offline, in offline races you don't care if you cause an accident behind you by slowing down, you can also make sure that nobody passes you when you do that. In online racing, that's completely different, so those of you who only race offline and are happy with the way it is now, please understand that for those of us who mostly race online, the situation is very different and it does cause real problems to plenty of people.

Well added, that was also a point I was going to make ;-)

hkraft300
25-05-2018, 01:30
Maybe its a good option to have for league racing, in long races.
Or well regulated lobbies.
We wouldn’t have to change the system, just a parameter in the penalty options. “Number of warnings” for example.
So then we can add a combination of warnings and time penalty. For example 3 warnings, 15s time penalty, DT on.
Or, for what rodders and league admins may want: no slowdowns or time penalty.
Warnings 3, penalty time 0s DT on. So after 3 warnings they get a DT etc.

Or ignore the slowdown.
I do.

simsimsheree
26-05-2018, 08:01
Is something 'possible'? Of course it is.

Is something going to be done by SMS? It depends...

How much work would it be, how much extra playability to the game would it add?

Accurate track cutting and running wide detection is a massive enterprise (You want proof? It hasn't already been done! It is constantly being tweaked, without total success. Sounds like a lot of work to me...) when you take into account every car, every corner, every track (what gives one car an advantage may not give another, with different power and handling traits).

As I said earlier, I believe the better approach is not 'freebies'. That will be gamed to hell. Why not the far simpler solution of no slowdowns, just time penalties that cannot be run off..? Impossible to game. I agree that slowdowns are an abomination, but any system of freebies will also end up as abominable.

Short of a complete rewrite of the penalty system for more accuracy in determining what constitutes an off that gains you an advantage and what doesn't, the detection system we have at the moment is adequate. It is simply the penalty served that sucks. A time penalty served at race end solves the main problem without adding an element that CAN be gamed.

BTW, the penalty system is identical between console and PC.

hkraft300
26-05-2018, 10:00
I don't see a warning system working in the wild west public lobbies. People will cheat it.
Well regulated league races where warnings are shown, and the moderator reviews the race replay to distribute penalties is the type of races warnings would work in. Because anyone taking advantage will be reprimanded post race.

cpcdem
26-05-2018, 10:54
Accurate track cutting and running wide detection is a massive enterprise (You want proof? It hasn't already been done! It is constantly being tweaked, without total success. Sounds like a lot of work to me...) when you take into account every car, every corner, every track (what gives one car an advantage may not give another, with different power and handling traits).


You keep saying things that have absolutely nothing to do with what was proposed. Accurate track cutting and running wide detection has already been implemented in PC2, months ago (or even earlier I guess) and it is working very well. Go to time trial and run a few laps, time will be invalidated only when you get out of the limits and in my experience this is always 100% correct there (problem is that next lap is also invalidated, but that's another story).

The problem is how this (correct) detection is translated into a slowdown/penalty during races. You go a little wide to avoid an accident, you get a slowdown warning. You go wide and lose time, you get a slowdown warning again. You are in a close door to door fight, after 20 laps you go just half a meter wide, you get a slowdown penalty, fight ruined. All is being asked, is to still penalize blatant track cuts, but give us a x-strike system for those going wide moments, in order to improve the quality of online races.

For the 3rd time, no, they do not need to go corner by corner at all.

MaximusN
26-05-2018, 11:16
You keep saying things that have absolutely nothing to do with what was proposed. Accurate track cutting and running wide detection has already been implemented in PC2, months ago (or even earlier I guess) and it is working very well. Go to time trial and run a few laps, time will be invalidated only when you get out of the limits and in my experience this is always 100% correct there (problem is that next lap is also invalidated, but that's another story).

The problem is how this (correct) detection is translated into a slowdown/penalty during races. You go a little wide to avoid an accident, you get a slowdown warning. You go wide and lose time, you get a slowdown warning again. You are in a close door to door fight, after 20 laps you go just half a meter wide, you get a slowdown penalty, fight ruined. All is being asked, is to still penalize blatant track cuts, but give us a x-strike system for those going wide moments, in order to improve the quality of online races.

For the 3rd time, no, they do not need to go corner by corner at all.
And even worse if you need to go slightly offtrack to avoid a car that has spun, is pointing in the wrong direction and have to give up (at least) one position to that car or the car behind you. That is really maddening. You'd be better off smashing through the car, but that goes against every instinct I have...

On most tracks I can avoid pure track-only penalties*, but accident avoidance should be stimulated instead of punished. It shouldn't be that hard to detect you are overtaking a car that is going less than 50% of the normal speed. And the normal track penalty calculation could still apply, so you don't gain anything. IMHO the offtrack passing penalty causes more harm than it does good. I honestly think it should not have been implemented unless it also checks if there is a valid reason for 'passing' off-track.

*= Some have weird/unexpected detection lines which you have to transgress to even know about them)

simsimsheree
26-05-2018, 18:05
The game detecting cars out of sorts before you either contact them or go off to avoid is WAY beyond the capabilities of today's systems. How would you implement it? A car totally facing the wrong way? A car simply wagging its tail a bit?

If you think about the issue, you start to realize the complexity in tracking the attitude of every car vs. what is an 'acceptable' attitude at every point on the track. AFAIK, no racing game has ever achieved it. Heck, most of them can't even distinguish between a dive-bomb and a brake check!

I think at this point, we have to accept the penalty detection as being as good as it can currently get.

What we don't have to accept is SMS's unrealistic slowdown penalties. But we already have the tools to deal with it... Instruct all drivers to ignore the slowdowns, and take the time penalty. TBH, most of the time the time penalty is less than a slowdown gives you anyway!

League rooms can review incidents that force offs because of accidents ahead and adjust race finish times accordingly if penalized. Public rooms will gain fewer accidents as drivers collide with people taking the slowdown in bad track areas. But it deals with the 'occasional off' issue without adding an element that will be gamed to hell.

The idea that only offering the '3 freebies' as an option doesn't recognize that this is an option that will almost ALWAYS be taken in public rooms. Then gamed to hell. About the only way I can see it working is a race distance minimum of say 100 miles before you have the option of enabling it. That ought to keep it out of the casual rooms and only in the hands of serious rooms.

Is that acceptable?

Mind you, you have to realize that SMS have heard all this before, going back to PC1 (probably Shift too, LOL). So far, they have stubbornly stuck to their guns, and refused to implement a true to life penalty system. So, if anyone is holding their breath, where do we send your family the flowers?!

TX3 StorM
26-05-2018, 18:16
In my opinion the system should be like this.


You have 15 warnings available, if you go over you get a penalty.
As simple as that.

rich1e I
26-05-2018, 18:24
15? Nah, I plead for 20 free off-tracks. You never know lol

iRacing has slow downs, there's no other way to enforce track limits. Just turn penalties off and discover new apexes!

simsimsheree
26-05-2018, 18:33
In my opinion the system should be like this.

You have 15 warnings available, if you go over you get a penalty.
As simple as that.

LOL... OP only wanted 3 freebies! Way to ratchet it up!

What race series IRL gives you 15 warnings?!

You see? No limit will be enough for SOME people. There's probably someone that thinks 15 aren't enough!

The issue isn't getting penalties. The issue is how they are served. Slowdowns are a slap in the face for anyone that wants to approach the game as a simulation of the actual sport. But freebies are as unrealistic as the slowdowns. Real life 'freebies' are judged by a panel of stewards, and FAR more carefully judged as to whether they gave you an unfair advantage that simple track penalty detection in the game (this is the point I've been unsuccessfully trying to point out here) cannot.

Yes, most series will give you a warning, but sometimes if the exploit is deliberate enough, and gains you enough, you don't get the warning, you just get the penalty (anyone remember if Verstappen got a warning first before he got the cut penalty at COTA last year? No, he didn't...). This is the increased level of detection and calculation beyond our current systems that prevents this idea working well, IMO.

Basically, the system has to look at every single track excursion and cut, look at whether you gained a tactical advantage on the car ahead (which may not be apparent for several corners) and decide if you get a freebie or the penalty. That's a whole extra level of calculation on a system already pretty taxed...

Charger
26-05-2018, 19:22
The thing is you can ignore the slowdown and penalty warnings and take the x amount of seconds it gives which is very inconsistent, last night in a race I was behind one of our racers and he got an extend penalty and so did I, he got 3 seconds and I got 1, we were bumper to bumper he gained no more time than I did, in fact we both lost time going off and fighting the kerbs.

If the penalty was 1 sec per incident it maybe wouldn't be so bad but it can be 1/2/3 and then it's 6/8 or whatever it decides to give you, losing a race over these penalties is just silly, it also had the opposite side effect of overtaking and racing because if a front runner has 1 or 2 secs penalty the guy behind will not bother passing but stick on the bumper because they know that they will get the win anyway when they cross the line, that is not racing to me.

TX3 StorM
26-05-2018, 20:30
When I say 15 warnings I'm talking about the actual track limits, where going off by 2 cm from the white line is considered a track cut for the game. Otherwise yeah it would be much lower, down to 3.
And you know iRacing allows around 18 warnings for a race sometimes.

cpcdem
26-05-2018, 22:19
I had a league race yesterday, in Donington. For 12-13 laps, I had a great fight with another guy for 1st. For all those laps, neither of us got a slowdown warning, even though we were always less than 0.5 sec apart fighting. It was very intense and a big adrenaline rush. Suddenly, I made a small mistake, went just a bit wide. Did not know if it was off track or not, it was a tough call, but a couple seconds later, *diiiinngg*, got it...So end of battle, I just gave the place to him, with yet again another time a very disappointing feeling of a ruined fight, for just a few cm...

At the end that wasn't what decided the result of the race, because the other guy also made a mistake later and I passed him (until I made another one myself and crashed on a wall :)), but still, it's a really disappointing way to end a fight. We discussed that after the race and he told me that if he knew I was under a slowdown, we wouldn't had passed me, he does not like winning like that (and I don't, either). He actually suggested what you guys are saying, to just take the penalty and move on, but that's no solution either, as indeed this would completely destroy the race to the end, because he would just wait behind me till the end, without any need to overtake.

Funny thing is that the guys in the league were always racing with penalties disabled, because of the issues we are discussing, but because in this track you can gain a lot of time by cutting a certain corner, I suggested that maybe it's better to turn them on :)

BasvV
27-05-2018, 21:36
Yes it is very annoying. What annoys me the most is the system in qualifying. That a lap not counts when cutting o corner is fair, but it also counts for the lap after that. That is just ridiculous.
Also an example; one time in qualifying i braked to late for the last double left handers at Imola. I ran wide, losing time, over the outside curb, and still got a penalty, for the current lap (which was slower anyway), but also for the next lap. I can't believe that this has ever happened in a real racing series, eventually not in karting what i had experienced.

cpcdem
27-05-2018, 21:58
Well, at Imola it's at least only the 2 last corners, or 3 actually because next laps invalidates also in the right kink after the chicane. But there are other tracks where next lap gets invalidated when you go wide even as many as 5-6 or more corners behind the start line...And as was noted previously, this is new in PC2, in PC1 the "next lap invalidation" system was very sensible I think.

I understand that in PC1, the system could be gamed in a couple specific tracks, but now we've gone to the other extreme of invalidating next laps at places where it is very illogical to do so.

hkraft300
27-05-2018, 23:14
It's not how many corners.
At all tracks, during practice /qualifying, if you breach track limits anywhere in sector 3 you invalidate the next lap.

cpcdem
28-05-2018, 07:03
It's not how many corners.
At all tracks, during practice /qualifying, if you breach track limits anywhere in sector 3 you invalidate the next lap.

I think it's not exactly like that, for example indeed in LeMans Bugatti anywhere in sector 3 invalidates your next lap, but in Watkins Glen, you can get away with it after the first 2 corners of sector 3. Same in Barcelona, sector 3 begins at the end of the back straight, but going out at the corner just after it invalidates only your current lap, not the next one as well. But if you do that a couple corners later, then you're doomed :)

CoproManiac
28-05-2018, 08:04
I agree, a strike based system would be a huge improvement over the current system for reasons others already mentioned. I doubt it will be implemented in PCars2, but I would love to see it implemented in upcoming releases.

If such a system were ever to be implemented, it would be beneficial to also include an option to force a slowdown in order to prevent exploits in short online races (5-6 laps).

Slowdowns = on
1 off-track = slowdown

Strikes = on
Every 3 strikes = 3 second penalty
After 10 strikes = an additional 15 second penalty
After 20 strikes = Disqualification from race

Ofcourse it would be possible to customize the amount of time per penalty and the amount of strikes for when a penalty were to be given, and to turn off DQs etc.

Also, if a CUT was made, you could force a slowdown even with the strike based system activated. Like, 'slowdown 2 seconds within the next xx seconds' and show a timer how much of those 2 seconds are left to slowdown. People can then find a proper place to slowdown without causing dangerous situations or spread the slowdown over multiple parts of the track.

A fully customizable strike based system would highly benefit league and longer public races. The current system already spots off-tracks pretty decently, that system could stay in place and only the way penalties are given could be adjusted.

Rodders
28-05-2018, 17:01
Well you's did well guys but it was almost impossible not to have a bit of "what's wrong with the current system" debate here, which I was trying to avoid to keep the thread clean(ish) and on topic.

Can't beat it join it then :p (thread has largely served it's purpose anyway).

The current and next lap invalidated thing might be one of the most pointless (I know why it's there but it's simply not valid in 99.9% of situations) and irritating mechanics in the game. MAYBE it's of use on the last corner or 2, but the entire last sector (usually)!! I was amazed when this made it into PCars2. It was such an obviously poor game mechanic that served such a tiny purpose, while almost always otherwise only managing to piss off players, that I thought it was a given it would be removed or heavily adjusted.

noroardanto
29-05-2018, 13:32
How about an option to turn off the corner cutting penalty in trade of the lap times not listed on lap records?

Stewy32
29-05-2018, 18:15
How about an option to turn off the corner cutting penalty in trade of the lap times not listed on lap records?

Use Free Practice mode.

r200ti
29-05-2018, 22:41
given how you cant join a race midway to get some track time in, points are hard to come by and servers arent all that numerous - having your only chance at a qualy lap taken away because you slide 1 cm to far on cold tyres on a track youve never driven half way round the lap is indeed a little harsh. (my 2p worth)


Yet the times ive seen people cut chicanes with no penalty.....

Javaniceday
10-07-2018, 15:27
I forget the exact wording. This is great! It's the first time I see this dialog box pop-up. Unfortunately, I didn't get a warning, I actually got a 1 sec penalty, before the game processed the warning.

So... I mean, the functionality exists. Can we scrap the 1 sec, 2 sec penalties, for track extending, and go with the warnings, say, 2 or 3 of them, before penalties start being handed out??