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View Full Version : In praise of the Genius at SMS who picked the 924 Carrera GTP for inclusion



kondor999
21-06-2018, 04:35
I was completely unaware (somehow) of the Porsche 924 GTP's existence until the latest DLC, but once again SMS has blown me away with another really inspired car choice. This one is right up there with the Panoz GTR-1 (otherwise known as Possibly the Greatest Car in Sim Racing) ;)

If you haven't tried it yet, go out on the hard slicks, dial the brake balance a bit rearward, and prepare yourself for one of the sweetest-handling cars I've ever tried (and this happens to match what everyone said who drove the car IRL).

I found an excellent little documentary about this rather obscure car. Check it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjLcF-iHAhU

Just to show you can beat the M1's at reasonable difficulty levels: I was able to grab pole at Brno with AI=95, Aggro=50 by about 0.161s without a lot of trouble. Pretty sure I could get pole at AI 100 if I cleaned up my braking a bit.

Pole lap starts at 8:10 (sorry, editing this stuff with an iphone is a pain)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hnQpkuxV28

Sessionerror
21-06-2018, 06:11
I found an excellent little documentary about this rather obscure car. Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjLcF-iHAhU

I've been to the Porsche museum for a 24h of Le Mans public viewing last saturday, and saw exactly this beauty standing there! Had to drive it afterwards in Project CARS 2 immediately :) Thanks for sharing this documentary ;)

balderz002
21-06-2018, 09:05
Other than a quick couple of laps when the pack came out, I haven't yet given this car any real quality time......

How does it stack up against the M1 Procar? I'm just guessing, but the M1 is faster on the straights? The 924 faster round the bends?

blinkngone
21-06-2018, 12:00
Other than a quick couple of laps when the pack came out, I haven't yet given this car any real quality time......

How does it stack up against the M1 Procar? I'm just guessing, but the M1 is faster on the straights? The 924 faster round the bends?

It's not close right now, multiple seconds slower. http://cars2-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=4241994684&vehicle=1368036017

banner77amc
21-06-2018, 13:02
Other than a quick couple of laps when the pack came out, I haven't yet given this car any real quality time......

How does it stack up against the M1 Procar? I'm just guessing, but the M1 is faster on the straights? The 924 faster round the bends?

Yeah its not a car you do the Group 5 challenge with on expert level. The M1's are plentiful and phast.

rich1e I
21-06-2018, 14:23
From the 'Physics of Spirit of Le Mans DLC' thread:


This car is around 100kg lighter than the BMW M1 Procar and with 160hp less, but it has more rubber at both ends; thing has a surplus of grip in the dry and wet. While it can struggle on top speed tracks, it is so easy to chuck around that time can be made up quickly in twisty sections of tracks and it has come out ahead in testing here at the shorter tracks.

blinkngone
21-06-2018, 14:36
From the 'Physics of Spirit of Le Mans DLC' thread:

Ok, so maybe people just haven't tried tuning it enough yet? At Donington Park National the 924 is 1:10.560 and the Procar is 1:07.580. It's worse if you just compare Default. Have you had a chance to compare these cars yourself?

Ok I just checked Silverstone National and the 924 was run by a great driver and it's still off. What is considered a short track where the 924 might be ok?

Mowzer
21-06-2018, 17:53
Personally the 924 GTP has always been one of my favourite race cars ever and like you say bravo to SMS for including it in the game :glee:.

blinkngone
21-06-2018, 18:46
Cool stunt car, you can get it up on 2 wheels on level ground.
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rich1e I
21-06-2018, 19:04
Ok, so maybe people just haven't tried tuning it enough yet? At Donington Park National the 924 is 1:10.560 and the Procar is 1:07.580. It's worse if you just compare Default. Have you had a chance to compare these cars yourself?

Ok I just checked Silverstone National and the 924 was run by a great driver and it's still off. What is considered a short track where the 924 might be ok?

I haven't compared the two cars yet. Silverstone nat may be a short track but it has 2 long straights. Leaderboards on PC will tell soon.

blinkngone
21-06-2018, 19:08
Ok, I took the 924 to the Willow Springs Horse Thief Mile which is a twisty track with almost no straights. I had to max out the springs to keep it from rolling over but I could only manage to get within 2.3 seconds of the Procar which is almost the same gap between the cars at Silverstone National.
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Ok, switched to Hard tires as kondor suggested, Automatic by Weather is Soft. First try was a wreckfest so I took it easy the next time on the outlap and went for it on lap 2 and 3, close but it really takes effort to get that close to the Soft tires on this track.
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Ok, managed to get within a second of the Procar at Nurburgring Mullenbach but I am not sure I can get that next second. Also I don't know if the Procar run can be improved.
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Malcstar
21-06-2018, 19:55
SMS needs to look to the wide pull of talent for testing in regards towards the comparison. Not saying they don't have fast drivers in house it just looks obvious that not many of them are in the testing department imo. Anyhow I'm at work and this is pretty interesting because I like the Pro Car, can't wait to check both out. Love to see more of these types of cars in lobbies.

ramiro000
21-06-2018, 20:17
Considering the times here (https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/database/races/1980-le-mans-24-hours) I'd say that the difference in time is pretty realistic between the two cars. If it matches with RL, I'm happy with that, personally. Other than that, I love the car, it is one of the weird ones that drive wonderfully and are a joy to drive!

GrimeyDog
21-06-2018, 21:20
I was completely unaware (somehow) of the Porsche 924 GTP's existence until the latest DLC, but once again SMS has blown me away with another really inspired car choice. This one is right up there with the Panoz GTR-1 (otherwise known as Possibly the Greatest Car in Sim Racing) ;)

If you haven't tried it yet, go out on the hard slicks, dial the brake balance a bit rearward, and prepare yourself for one of the sweetest-handling cars I've ever tried (and this happens to match what everyone said who drove the car IRL).

I found an excellent little documentary about this rather obscure car. Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjLcF-iHAhU

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this car...If Not for you sharing your thoughts i may have Not taken the time to Drive this car and really see how Great it truly is:D This car totally escaped my radar.

The car feels even more amazing driving a H pattern shifter!!!

blinkngone
21-06-2018, 23:34
Considering the times here (https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/database/races/1980-le-mans-24-hours) I'd say that the difference in time is pretty realistic between the two cars. If it matches with RL, I'm happy with that, personally. Other than that, I love the car, it is one of the weird ones that drive wonderfully and are a joy to drive!

Ok, thanks for the link. So it is just slower than the Procar and it is stuck in the Group of 2 cars. I guess it will be ok in multiplayer when the host can select it as the only car and keep the BMW out or it can be just like running 2 different classes together. With the Default springs and wide tires I found this car easy to roll over. I maxed out the springs and increased the front soft bump and this seemed to really stabilize the car. I cut the gap to the Procar to 1.766 seconds at Silverstone National and I think I can get closer than the 1 second I am behind at Mullenbach. I can only work the little tracks so hopefully others will work on the longer tracks. I guess the 924 will be ok at some tracks, my time at Silverstone National with it would put in 5th on the Procar Leaderboard so a good driver(which I am not) with the 924 will be in the mix with the slower Procar drivers in a multiplayer race.

Ok, went back to Mullenbach with the revised Soft Bumps and ran a 00:41.438 further cutting the gap to the Procar. I may have to throw out a Lifeline to a good driver I know to get his assistance.:D

Another attempt 00:41.064, quicker than the 2nd place Procar, more bump/rebound, camber and more aggressive LSD.

kondor999
22-06-2018, 02:17
Try the 924 at Brno, and remember this is a momentum car. You have to be smooth and resist the temptation to overdrive the car. Sliding it is fun, but that'll kill your lap times because you just don't have the HP to recover all the velocity you're scrubbing away.

If over-driven, this car is actually slower on tight courses. Set it up so the car is balanced on corner exit especially. You have to maximize your corner exit speeds above all else. Every bit of wheelspin on exit is lost time down the next straight, and your engine is both peaky and underpowered.

I'm exclusively an offline racer (young child, frequent interruptions). With AI at 90 at Brno, I can beat the M1's pretty handily - but it's a challenge for sure.

blinkngone
22-06-2018, 02:33
Try the 924 at Brno, and remember this is a momentum car. You have to be smooth and resist the temptation to overdrive the car. Sliding it is fun, but that'll kill your lap times because you just don't have the HP to recover all the velocity you're scrubbing away.

If over-driven, this car is actually slower on tight courses. Set it up so the car is balanced on corner exit especially. You have to maximize your corner exit speeds above all else. Every bit of wheelspin on exit is lost time down the next straight, and your engine is both peaky and underpowered.

I'm exclusively an offline racer (young child, frequent interruptions). With AI at 90 at Brno, I can beat the M1's pretty handily - but it's a challenge for sure.

Hey, kondor I'm not the driver you are.:D I can't do long tracks either. I was just trying to find a short track where someone might be able to beat a Procar on the TT leaderboard. I don't know if I can do it but it is fun trying.:D Maybe, because of this thread, some of the better TT drivers will start running this car. It looks really good to me with the oversized tires and the wheels, much better than the Procar.;) None of the really good TT drivers have run the Procar at Brno, the best TT time is 2:03.808, you can beat the Procar at 90 at this track but at that level I am not sure the AI is running that quick. How quick were the Procars at 90?

See, I have never driven a Procar before that I can remember, I know it's the first time at Silverstone National.:D I set the AI to 90 and had no problem with them, they do their quickest lap on the last lap but they are too far back.
Anyway my time is almost 2 seconds off the TT WR. Maybe I'll try running the 924 against them.
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Ok, came in 2nd first try, Kieran rammed me bad(and was suitably punished:D) and I couldn't make up the distance lost trying to recover in just 3 laps so I can see how someone as good as you can beat them, but at 90 the Procars are still slow compared to how they would run in TT.
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poirqc
22-06-2018, 03:41
It is a super nice car indeed. In spite of the clutch debate, most manuals rocks in this game! :D

kondor999
22-06-2018, 05:29
It is a super nice car indeed. In spite of the clutch debate, most manuals rocks in this game! :D

The whole clutch thing is kinda ridiculous.

IRL, the clutch take-up varies so much from one car to the next, but with the sort of clutches I've run in my various track day cars (in particular the Competition Clutches Stage 3 Ironman I had in my supercharged S2000), there was nearly zero take-up at all and the bite point was right at the floor. Not pleasant, the thing was basically a f*cking light-switch, which is also why it was indestructible.

I guess my point is that you could try to code logic to force people to use the clutch pedal the "right" way and still never come close to what it's like anyway. I'm not sure what the point is of trying to replicate this facet of driving unless we have true FFB clutches that can be programmed to have variable bite points and take-up (and be able to feel that).

blinkngone
22-06-2018, 08:47
I haven't compared the two cars yet. Silverstone nat may be a short track but it has 2 long straights. Leaderboards on PC will tell soon.

Ok rich1e I, I had to ask cpcdem for some assistance but he take the record at Mullenbach from the Procar with a 0:40.595 for the 924 to a 0:40.778 for the Procar. So track specific.

Zaskarspants
22-06-2018, 10:44
The 924 is such fun to drive, but as others have said it likes going onto two wheels.

I tried Oulton park against the BMW where I was 4s slower and Hockenheim international 2s slower. As said above it is hard not to slide this car about with glee, slower but so much fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAaKMaIfrBI

cpcdem
22-06-2018, 14:43
Ok rich1e I, I had to ask cpcdem for some assistance but he take the record at Mullenbach from the Procar with a 0:40.595 for the 924 to a 0:40.778 for the Procar. So track specific.

With so few entries in those combos, unfortunately I do not think you can really compare times, because we do not know how much did the guy push in his lap with the Procar, if he just casually made a lap good enough for the WR, or he then also tried to improve the time further...I think it's better to do a few laps yourself if you can with each car, so you can see with which one you get better times. I know it can be at times difficult for you, so I will also give it a test with the Procar to get an idea, too.

blinkngone
22-06-2018, 17:15
With so few entries in those combos, unfortunately I do not think you can really compare times, because we do not know how much did the guy push in his lap with the Procar, if he just casually made a lap good enough for the WR, or he then also tried to improve the time further...I think it's better to do a few laps yourself if you can with each car, so you can see with which one you get better times. I know it can be at times difficult for you, so I will also give it a test with the Procar to get an idea, too.

No worries, I think the Procar is just faster. I just wanted a Procar slower at 1 track!;) For the people who like these cars I'm sure everything will be apparent in multiplayer, the average drivers will gravitate to the Procar leaving some room for the better drivers to make progress with the 924 if they want to.

blinkngone
22-06-2018, 17:46
Ok, all things are back in order in the PCars 2 universe, the Procar is faster than the 924 again. The 924 is closer at Mullenbach than any track I have found. Maybe it would be close at Ruapuna A as well.

poirqc
22-06-2018, 21:18
The whole clutch thing is kinda ridiculous.

IRL, the clutch take-up varies so much from one car to the next, but with the sort of clutches I've run in my various track day cars (in particular the Competition Clutches Stage 3 Ironman I had in my supercharged S2000), there was nearly zero take-up at all and the bite point was right at the floor. Not pleasant, the thing was basically a f*cking light-switch, which is also why it was indestructible.

I guess my point is that you could try to code logic to force people to use the clutch pedal the "right" way and still never come close to what it's like anyway. I'm not sure what the point is of trying to replicate this facet of driving unless we have true FFB clutches that can be programmed to have variable bite points and take-up (and be able to feel that).

I won't reopen the whole debate. But here's an example, in my daily driver, thank god it happen super rarely, I almost want to die from the sound and vibration the miss shift makes. Instantly, I have the reflex to disengage everything and do it more slowly. In pCars 1, you had to neutral and shift in again. In pCars 2, you leave everything there and things place themselves. Personally, id like to be forced to disengage before shifting again. But that's only my opinion.

With that said, clutch slipping and most cluth usage, seems to make the car behave as expected.

I learned to drive with a Renault Encore 1.5. The cluth was super tight and low. It was indeed unpleasant to drive! :)

morpwr
22-06-2018, 21:56
I won't reopen the whole debate. But here's an example, in my daily driver, thank god it happen super rarely, I almost want to die from the sound and vibration the miss shift makes. Instantly, I have the reflex to disengage everything and do it more slowly. In pCars 1, you had to neutral and shift in again. In pCars 2, you leave everything there and things place themselves. Personally, id like to be forced to disengage before shifting again. But that's only my opinion.

With that said, clutch slipping and most cluth usage, seems to make the car behave as expected.

I learned to drive with a Renault Encore 1.5. The cluth was super tight and low. It was indeed unpleasant to drive! :)


First stick was a 73 road runner i learned to drive on the way home. The car was horrible to drive in stop and go traffic because you couldn't hold the clutch in that long. Back in the day before all these hi tech clutches. Usually you ended up with a super heavy clutch pedal if you wanted something for a performance clutch back then. Glad they aren't like that anymore. Now its all light pedals,hydraulic throwout bearings and multi disc clutches.

poirqc
23-06-2018, 01:46
First stick was a 73 road runner i learned to drive on the way home. The car was horrible to drive in stop and go traffic because you couldn't hold the clutch in that long. Back in the day before all these hi tech clutches. Usually you ended up with a super heavy clutch pedal if you wanted something for a performance clutch back then. Glad they aren't like that anymore. Now its all light pedals,hydraulic throwout bearings and multi disc clutches.

I learn to drive with 2 cars. The mentioned Renault Encore. The 2nd one was a Subaru Loyale 90'. This one was a complete opposite. The bite point was really high and the clutch was super mushy, in contrast.

Constantly switching between the two, I was constantly stalling in the first one. It was a slip fest in the other. My father went crazy about it! :D

It was unpleasant for both of us, to say the least! :D

Zaskarspants
23-06-2018, 09:38
Knockhill, I was faster with the Porsche by a second or two. BMW - 53.0 s, Porsche - 51.5 s.

The 924 has a narrow power band compared to the BMW, I got the car faster by arranging the gears to be close and not too high.

blinkngone
23-06-2018, 10:43
Knockhill, I was faster with the Porsche by a second or two. BMW - 53.0 s, Porsche - 51.5 s.

The 924 has a narrow power band compared to the BMW, I got the car faster by arranging the gears to be close and not too high.

Hey, Zaskars, thanks for searching for a suitable track. No one has run the Porsche at that track on PC, the Procars are in the 49s(WR Default 0:49.231). So about a 2 second gap to your 924 run which seems normal.

Zaskarspants
23-06-2018, 11:28
I think the Porsche could be faster if it didn't keep lifting the inside wheels. That often happens befor the grip is lost. Lower ride height may help but I have not touched suspension adjustments yet.

Presumably spring rates and damping would need to be calculated / adjusted too?

blinkngone
23-06-2018, 12:40
I think the Porsche could be faster if it didn't keep lifting the inside wheels. That often happens befor the grip is lost. Lower ride height may help but I have not touched suspension adjustments yet.

Presumably spring rates and damping would need to be calculated / adjusted too?

Yes I definitely would try the increased springs! I tried more damper but the springs helped the most.

kondor999
23-06-2018, 21:23
Just to show you can beat the M1's at reasonable difficulty levels: I was able to grab pole at Brno with AI=95, Aggro=50 by about 0.161s without a lot of trouble. Pretty sure I could get pole at AI 100 if I cleaned up my braking a bit.

Pole lap starts at 8:10 (sorry, editing this stuff with an iphone is a pain)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hnQpkuxV28

blinkngone
23-06-2018, 23:48
Just to show you can beat the M1's at reasonable difficulty levels: I was able to grab pole at Brno with AI=95, Aggro=50 by about 0.161s without a lot of trouble. Pretty sure I could get pole at AI 100 if I cleaned up my braking a bit.

Pole lap starts at 8:10 (sorry, editing this stuff with an iphone is a pain)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hnQpkuxV28

Hey kondor, please I am not doubting your ability.:D Sorry I can't see your video of you smacking the Procars round, I'm on Inernet explorer and MS's recent update killed it.:( It's great that you like the 924 and get great results with it as well.

Zaskarspants
24-06-2018, 11:18
Smooth driving Kondor999, my contribution is not so smooth. I managed 51.6 here, with my best unrecorded 51.2s.

I was going to try lowering the ride height but default loose is lowest so I tried adjusting arb, first time for everything. I tried front and back and discovered increasing rear arb to max ( 2 clicks up) stops the car lifting the inside wheels somewhat. I also moved the gears to be much closer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Tos5R6iF4

Jezza819
24-06-2018, 23:47
I tried them both at RedBull GP. The BMW was 4 seconds faster than the Porsche so I didn't bother with it anymore.

kondor999
25-06-2018, 04:07
I tried them both at RedBull GP. The BMW was 4 seconds faster than the Porsche so I didn't bother with it anymore.

Hey, I'll go there next and see what I can do. What AI strength are you running? I've settled on 95-100, depending on the track. I put it at 105 if I want to be mid-pack all the time ;)

Jezza819
25-06-2018, 18:32
Hey, I'll go there next and see what I can do. What AI strength are you running? I've settled on 95-100, depending on the track. I put it at 105 if I want to be mid-pack all the time ;)

65 strength, 80 aggression.

blinkngone
26-06-2018, 17:31
65 strength, 80 aggression.

Hi Jezza, I ran something similar to you with your 924. I used 100/100 and I had tuned my 924 a little and was able to run a best of 3 laps of 1:41.009(2nd lap). I lost 3rd place on the 2nd lap and on the third lap the 2 trailing cars held back then blasted past in the last 2 corners. What I was mostly interested in is how fast the lead AI would push their lap times. The 924 in 3rd pushed it's lap time to a 1:37.500, it did this lap to pass me and catch the 2 leaders. This lap by the best 924 AI was quicker than the best lap of the Procars run in your test of 1:38.301(which was you) which was Procars only. In your second test you drove the 924 to a best lap of 1:42.420 and the quickest Procar lap dropped to a 1:39.826 while the AI in your first test made a lap of 1:38.661. I think the AI's time for the Procar was worse in your 2nd run because you were now driving the slower 924 and the AI had adjusted to you. If I were able to run more laps or run a quicker lap time I believe the AI would have equaled or come closer to the TT record for the 924 at this track of 1:36.646 using 100/100. In a mixed race at this track and these settings this would just push the Procars even faster.

So, yes you can adjust the AI and make a race for yourself with the 924 against the Procars but I agree with your conclusion that the 924 is just simply slower.
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Well this test s****d, I picked class and they gave me 5 Procars to run against.:D Well anyway they did slow down to let me keep up.:cool:
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Here we go, all Procars, I was able to push the leader and the best lap was 1:35.480, well under the 1:36.600 when I was slowing them down with the 924.
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rosko
26-06-2018, 21:17
Race it in its own series like the M1 imo.

pferreirag60
28-06-2018, 15:16
You can win with the Porsche against the Bmw with some dificult at 100:100 and even get the pole at the Sonama Raceway, Iīve recorded the race, but havenīt loaded in youtube, if anyone is interested, i could load the race. (30minutes race)