PDA

View Full Version : The "art" of programming physics.



Twinz
28-06-2018, 14:06
I used to prefer PC1 over PC2 because, with my ancient driving force GT wheel, the FRS in PC1 "felt" more like the FRS I compete with IRL than the 86 did in PC2.

I thought this was partially due to the unavailability of track-ish tires in PC2 for the car, but my real car wasn't such a nightmare to handle IRL with even the crappy stock tires. I started to think that many in the sim community defined "real physics" as a car that tries to kill you the millisecond any slip angle is introduced. (So many people were talking about the much-improved physics of PC2 while I knew my real car simply wasn't that hard to drive.)

I recently upgraded from my decade-old wheel to a CSL elite and V3 pedals and *now* PC2 "feels" more like my real-liife car than PC1. The tires in PC2 still aren't as good as the NT01's in PC1 but the car in PC2 now drives more-or-less the way my real car does on normal street tires. The 86 in PC2 was trying to tell me what was going on all along, but I wasn't getting the information in useful manner thanks to my old crappy wheel. Basically it seems PC1 did a better job of compensating for my crappy hardware, but PC2 provides more accurate information if you have the hardware to access it.

I'm not a programmer, but I can only guess that there is an art to "filling in the blanks" between all the information we get when driving IRL and the limited amount of information software can communicate through various hardware.

After almost a year of owning PC2, I finally prefer it over PC1 and I have a new appreciation for all the work that went into both titles.

cluck
28-06-2018, 14:20
It's a very difficult job, I'm sure, for any developer to try and convey what we feel through both our real-life wheels and our real-life butts, through the huge array of equipment us gamers have. Then you throw that set of complications into the hotpot with the various preferences of what people like, add a dash of what some people think it 'should' feel like and you've got the recipe from hell! That any developer is able to conjure up something even remotely good, out of that mix, is a minor miracle in itself so I doff my hat to each and every one of them.

Sankyo
28-06-2018, 14:51
So actually the word "physics" in the title should be "force feedback"? :)

Theruleslawyer
28-06-2018, 15:17
Well better wheels convey subtle information a lot better. Cheap wheels have to be turned up to 11 to feel anything so there is very little difference between hitting a wall and ripple in the track surface.

Kinda of like
Vibration- 0 or 1 Binary FFB
Cheap wheel - 0-10 levels
Good belt wheel- 0-30 levels
DD wheel- 0-100 levels

(vaguely based on Nm torque available on wheels.)

Twinz
28-06-2018, 15:45
So actually the word "physics" in the title should be "force feedback"? :)

Not necessarily. The force feedback on PC1 was almost non-existent on my old wheel yet it "felt" more like real life than PC2. (In the absence of FFB)

The "art" is how the software convices us that what we are doing is realistic. Even though the FFB is better on PC2 there are still gaps to fill in.

MaximusN
28-06-2018, 15:50
Well better wheels convey subtle information a lot better. Cheap wheels have to be turned up to 11 to feel anything so there is very little difference between hitting a wall and ripple in the track surface.

Kinda of like
Vibration- 0 or 1 Binary FFB
Cheap wheel - 0-10 levels
Good belt wheel- 0-30 levels
DD wheel- 0-100 levels

(vaguely based on Nm torque available on wheels.)

Also if the internals of a DF GT are comparable to a DF PRO then the wheel movement is horribly slow. When steering yourself you feel like you have to drive the gears, and the speed of the motor is so heavily reduced(to up the NM's)that it can't come near the speed a real car can drive a wheel when autocorrecting itself. So you actually have to help the car autocorrect itself, which takes the auto part out of the equation. A G25 is better in this department, T500 is already another world and the new Fanatecs(at least the v2.5) does even better.

Twinz
28-06-2018, 16:14
Re: FFB "force"...

I haven't decided if extra force is need to compensate for the missing lateral g-forces when driving in a sim, but I spent a lot of time dialing-back my CSL Elite wheel to try and get it to feel like my FRS and thought I was close until got in my car to run an errand, and my real car's wheel felt much lighter. Getting back into the sim afterwards, my gain 80 setting felt like what I imagine my FRS would feel like with no power steering. (Otherwise default raw settings)

I try to just barely avoid ABS on track, but I hit it every now and again. I think wheel is too heavy *edit* at 80 gain *edit* but the ABS effect needs more cowbell....road detail seems to feel believable though at my current setting.

Is there a way to turn up ABS effect without turning up the road noise?

cpcdem
28-06-2018, 16:52
I used to prefer PC1 over PC2 because, with my ancient driving force GT wheel, the FRS in PC1 "felt" more like the FRS I compete with IRL than the 86 did in PC2.


Very surprised to hear that, because until a few months ago I was also using a DFGT. In PC1 it just felt "wrong" to me, could not see much correlation really between the road and the wheel, although I had tried so many different settings, Jack Spade files etc etc. I was coming to the conclusion that my wheel was flawed, but then again it was feeling a lot better in RRE and in AC...And then PC2 was released and it again gave life to my DFGT, it was a pleasure driving with it. I could had still stayed with it for PC2, if it hadn't started having lot's of problems later with its buttons not responding etc.

MarleyMoo
29-06-2018, 06:01
Also if the internals of a DF GT are comparable to a DF PRO then the wheel movement is horribly slow. When steering yourself you feel like you have to drive the gears, and the speed of the motor is so heavily reduced(to up the NM's)that it can't come near the speed a real car can drive a wheel when autocorrecting itself. So you actually have to help the car autocorrect itself, which takes the auto part out of the equation. A G25 is better in this department, T500 is already another world and the new Fanatecs(at least the v2.5) does even better.

Well, I've had both DFGT and DFPro. DFGT is *much* faster. They're not comparable. DFPro is the only horribly slow wheel I ever had.

Not saying that DFGT is fast enough by today's standards.

Gav88888
29-06-2018, 07:11
I always wondered if a relatively easy way to replicate what FFB in real life feels like is to put some kind of gauge on the steering column or wheel to measure how much force is being used to turn left and right, then replicate that in the game?

Twinz
29-06-2018, 11:02
Just reread my FFB post and clarified that the "heavy" part is due to current settings. I'm sure I can change the settings to lighten it up. I just need to take some time to mess with the settings some more when I get a chance.

I'm not sure that matching real life forces will result in real life "feel" though because there are other forces completely absent in the sim that the extra wheel force may need to compensate for. (No lateral G's for instance)

It's the whole "art" question. The forces I need from the sim wheel to make me *think* I'm in the real car may not be identical to the forces I get from the real car's wheel.