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Stewy32
09-07-2018, 17:54
I noticed this the other day when accidentally missing my breaking point so thought I would investigate.


As an example let's take the Harbourside Chicane after the tunnel at Azure Circuit.
I am running in P4,3 seconds behind P3.Due to how slow the chicane is if I cut the chicane with only a small lift I easily overtake P3.I am told to give the position back,however,after I have given the position back their is no further penalty.Therefore, I have gained a couple of seconds and closed right up to behind someone.

[I WILL POST EVIDENCE WHEN I HAVE TIME TO GET SOME-BUT IF SOMEONE CAN GET SOME FOR ME OR TEST IT OUT TO SEE IF IT JUST ME OR JUST XB1 THAT WOULD BE APPRECIATED].

Mahjik
09-07-2018, 17:58
The time measured is not in relation to the next car, it's related to your own potential lap time. What happens if you cut, get a slow down and the driver in front of you spins out. You aren't forced to slow down more because the driver in front spun out. What happens if there is no car in front of you... This is why it's not related to the driver in front but your own lap time/speed.

A Scott
09-07-2018, 18:00
I noticed this the other day when accidentally missing my breaking point so thought I would investigate.


As an example let's take the Harbourside Chicane after the tunnel at Azure Circuit.
I am running in P4,3 seconds behind P3.Due to how slow the chicane is if I cut the chicane with only a small lift I easily overtake P3.I am told to give the position back,however,after I have given the position back their is no further penalty.Therefore, I have gained a couple of seconds and closed right up to behind someone.

[I WILL POST EVIDENCE WHEN I HAVE TIME TO GET SOME-BUT IF SOMEONE CAN GET SOME FOR ME OR TEST IT OUT TO SEE IF IT JUST ME OR JUST XB1 THAT WOULD BE APPRECIATED].

Sadly its not just you, you can abuse track limits at numerous circuits gain a advantage with no penatly, due to the pentaly system being toned down to the point its useless,
on realise online was a good experience 6 months on due to self pro claimed "Pro's" complaining this is the result.

cpcdem
09-07-2018, 19:10
The time measured is not in relation to the next car, it's related to your own potential lap time.

Are you sure about that, have the devs said this is the case? Because if it is designed to work like like that, then there's clearly some bug in the calculation. Almost every single time I make a mistake and go slightly off, losing time comparing to my best time (time lost either because of wrong line, or because I had to lift off anyway), I still get a slowdown warning. Even if I have even lost A LOT of time already.

On the other hand, in wet conditions, I often see that off track moments many times do not result to a slowdown warning, even if a little time is indeed gained actually. The only difference I see between wet and dry is that in the wet you are slower in general anyway, so that had led me to believe that the calculation takes place always against a generic time/speed, not to the real potential time.

Mahjik
09-07-2018, 21:18
Are you sure about that, have the devs said this is the case? Because if it is designed to work like like that, then there's clearly some bug in the calculation. Almost every single time I make a mistake and go slightly off, losing time comparing to my best time (time lost either because of wrong line, or because I had to lift off anyway), I still get a slowdown warning. Even if I have even lost A LOT of time already.

Keep in mind, I didn't say best time. ;)

cpcdem
09-07-2018, 21:34
Keep in mind, I didn't say best time. ;)

Ah, OK, I saw you said "potential" and I took it the way it's used sometimes in game (time result of adding all best sectors, which is actually even faster than the fastest time :)).
I misunderstood, so could you please elaborate on what you mean by potential time on this matter?

Mahjik
09-07-2018, 21:38
Potential meaning what the sim thinks you could get on your current lap based on where you are at and what you have done. So it runs a calculation to see if where you had a "track cut violation" would give you a faster or slower time based on it thinks you could do on the lap. It's likely not a perfect calculation, but it's probably closer to be right more times than wrong.

cpcdem
09-07-2018, 21:52
Potential meaning what the sim thinks you could get on your current lap based on where you are at and what you have done. So it runs a calculation to see if where you had a "track cut violation" would give you a faster or slower time based on it thinks you could do on the lap. It's likely not a perfect calculation, but it's probably closer to be right more times than wrong.

Well, that's the million dollar question, what this calculation is based on! :)

Unfortunately, on my experience at least, this calculation is almost always very wrong I am afraid. And turning it off is not a solution either unfortunately, because then people start blatantly cutting chicanes, so we have to live with this. But it is very frustrating that even when you already lose a lot of time, you are still penalized in addition. Same for everybody, so not unfair, but very frustrating. This and the next lap invalidation when you are still halfway through the current lap.

Btw, it's funny that somebody yesterday accused me during online of being "best friends with the race director"!!! :)

blackduckrun
09-07-2018, 22:46
Potential meaning what the sim thinks you could get on your current lap based on where you are at and what you have done. So it runs a calculation to see if where you had a "track cut violation" would give you a faster or slower time based on it thinks you could do on the lap. It's likely not a perfect calculation, but it's probably closer to be right more times than wrong.

Do you know this is how it works, or are you making assumptions? From what I've experienced it is simply that if you've gone just a pixel outside of the sometimes arbitrary line, you get a penalty. Too many times I've gone wide into the dirt on exit, loosing time all the way down the next straight, lifting for the next few corners just to cop a penalty anyhow. Not surprisingly, it really sours the experience. But maybe it changed in patch 6, I wouldn't know though, this combined with taking away the hosts ability to kick the douchebags; I just haven't bothered. This game is/was more strict about it's cut tracks than any professional real cars on real tracks racing series I've ever followed, and being the amateur that I am, it just doesn't seem right.

Mahjik
10-07-2018, 01:43
This and the next lap invalidation when you are still halfway through the current lap.

Now, we all know the "next lap invalidated" is the 3rd sector so let's not be sensational...


Do you know this is how it works, or are you making assumptions?

I make it up as I go.... :beguiled:

cpcdem
10-07-2018, 02:01
Now, we all know the "next lap invalidated" is the 3rd sector so let's not be sensational...


Try to go a bit wide in the middle of sector 2, get a warning and do not slow down during qualifying (maybe you may want to make it in time to the start line for another lap), you will most likely be in sector 3 when the system invalidates the current lap, and because you are in sector 3 now, it will also invalidate your next lap, for an incident that happened in sector 2. OK, I admit, I was being a bit smart-*** with my comment about "halfway" :), but I've been actually caught by exactly this, at least a few times.

Mahjik
10-07-2018, 02:06
BTW, just to be complete, the OP has two different "capabilities" that are being discussed which are being represented as the same but are different:


Give back a position because it was gained going off the racing surface
Slow down penalty for going off the racing surface

Those are separate things. i.e. just because you get the first one doesn't mean you also have a slow down penalty. Now, you might need to slow down to give back the place or you might not, but they are separate things.

hkraft300
10-07-2018, 03:24
Try to go a bit wide in the middle of sector 2, get a warning and do not slow down during qualifying (maybe you may want to make it in time to the start line for another lap), you will most likely be in sector 3 when the system invalidates the current lap, and because you are in sector 3 now, it will also invalidate your next lap, for an incident that happened in sector 2.

I’ll second this.
But Mahjik’s comment stands. If you’re invalidated in sector 3, even if the infringement is in s2, your next lap will also be invalid. The penalty is in S3, because you didn’t slow enough.
If you slow down for the warning to go away then you’re good for the next lap.

hkraft300
10-07-2018, 03:32
I've gone wide into the dirt on exit, loosing time all the way down the next straight, lifting for the next few corners just to cop a penalty anyhow. ... This game is/was more strict about it's cut tracks than any professional real cars on real tracks racing series I've ever followed, and being the amateur that I am, it just doesn't seem right.

The penalty I’ve received is proportional to how much I’ve cut/extended. If I drop half a wheel beyond the line, the warning goes away at the next corner. If I’m all 4 wheels off, I have to slow much more maybe you don’t slow enough.

Frankly for online racing it’s not strict enough as it’s exploited too much too easily.

Track limits can have a slightly relaxed enforcement irl because there are dangers, debris and curbs that can do physical damage to the car (Austrian GP ‘18) or pop a tire or bend the lower A-arms of the mclaren F1 GTR at Le Mans back in 97/98.

cpcdem
10-07-2018, 03:38
BTW, just to be complete, the OP has two different "capabilities" that are being discussed which are being represented as the same but are different:


Give back a position because it was gained going off the racing surface
Slow down penalty for going off the racing surface

Those are separate things. i.e. just because you get the first one doesn't mean you also have a slow down penalty. Now, you might need to slow down to give back the place or you might not, but they are separate things.

I think what the OP meant, is that he found an exploit, that you can on purpose blatantly cut the track, gaining a lot of time and speed, which you can then use to easily pass another car, AFTER you get a slowdown warning. You need to pass that other car, in order to trigger the "give back position" message, which is correct, but overrides the previous "slow down" warning, which is not active anymore. So you simply give the position back, but in the process you have gained A LOT of seconds from the blatant cut. I am gonna give it a short test to see if that actually works, but I think it does, because I have also noticed that one message overrides the other.

cpcdem
10-07-2018, 03:42
I’ll second this.
But Mahjik’s comment stands. If you’re invalidated in sector 3, even if the infringement is in s2, your next lap will also be invalid. The penalty is in S3, because you didn’t slow enough.
If you slow down for the warning to go away then you’re good for the next lap.

Yeah, OK, it's a sort of an edge case anyway, so not really important. The important thing is to get that next lap invalidation sorted when you're 4-5 corners before the finish line and more importantly make the "give back" time closer to what, if any, time was gained. And even most importantly take car of the exploit the OP reported, because this is actually the topic of the thread that I derailed :)

cpcdem
10-07-2018, 04:39
I think what the OP meant, is that he found an exploit, that you can on purpose blatantly cut the track, gaining a lot of time and speed, which you can then use to easily pass another car, AFTER you get a slowdown warning. You need to pass that other car, in order to trigger the "give back position" message, which is correct, but overrides the previous "slow down" warning, which is not active anymore. So you simply give the position back, but in the process you have gained A LOT of seconds from the blatant cut. I am gonna give it a short test to see if that actually works, but I think it does, because I have also noticed that one message overrides the other.

Nah, can't reproduce it, if it's possible to do it, then it is extremely difficult and can only be done by accident. I think what @Stewy saw was the previously reported problem that if you get a slowdown warning, you can go off track again, the slowdown briefly disappears and reappears later for the 2nd infraction, you can go off again etc, so you can manage this way to delay the slowdown a lot. I don't think it's practical to do it really though and if someone does do it, it's too obvious so it should get him kicked quickly.

Btw, after spending more than an hour cutting the track over and over again :), I see that what's really the problem with the "slowdown" system, is that it is very unbalanced. I could blatantly cut the first chicane in Monza, gaining about 10 seconds of time, but the system asked me to slowdown until I gave back around only 5. Similar for many other corners, I can gain a lot of time by blatantly cutting and the game asks me to give back much less. But on the complete opposite situation, if I lose some time by going wide, or gain just one or two tenths, then the system usually asks me to give back around a second or two! So I think it's calibration to the system that's needed, to make it ask for a lot more time back when the cut gains the player much time, and make it ask much less, when the "cut" is very minor or even has already lead to time lost.

hkraft300
10-07-2018, 09:10
Btw, after spending more than an hour cutting the track over and over again :), I see that what's really the problem with the "slowdown" system, is that it is very unbalanced. I could blatantly cut the first chicane in Monza, gaining about 10 seconds of time, but the system asked me to slowdown until I gave back around only 5. Similar for many other corners, I can gain a lot of time by blatantly cutting and the game asks me to give back much less. But on the complete opposite situation, if I lose some time by going wide, or gain just one or two tenths, then the system usually asks me to give back around a second or two! So I think it's calibration to the system that's needed, to make it ask for a lot more time back when the cut gains the player much time, and make it ask much less, when the "cut" is very minor or even has already lead to time lost.

I think what you're seeing there is the penalty for cutting the inside of a corner is too lenient and running wide is more stringent. It's not just Monza.

Chawabax
10-07-2018, 13:25
The time measured is not in relation to the next car, it's related to your own potential lap time....

I agree with this, but I think that the "potential lap time" somehow remains the same even if track (rain) or car (tires, engine) conditions change. Or at least it does not change in perfect accordance with changing conditions

I noticed that at the beginning of a race is easy to receive penalties.
During the race your tires loose efficiency and your laptime will be higher: it is much easier to avoid penalties simply completely releasing the throttle during a long braking (end of a straight line)
At the end of the race your fuel is close to zero and your laptimes tend to improve... again difficult to avoid penalties

Same if the race starts with good weather but then raining... easy to avoid penalties during the rain period (if you cut the penalty advice is on screen, but sometimes disappears without slowing down at all)

Should be better calibrated but It's not bad, not bad at all

cpcdem
10-07-2018, 15:39
I think what you're seeing there is the penalty for cutting the inside of a corner is too lenient and running wide is more stringent. It's not just Monza.

Yeah, you just said in one phrase what I said in a few lines :).

Yes, it's in all tracks, I tried Hockenheim for example, cut the first corner and gained around 5 seconds, but the system asked me to give back around 2. Same in Monaco, first corner, could gain a lot of time and could make the slowdown message go away by giving away around a second or two again. Those were blatant cuts. But when I had small very brief off-track moment that gained me nothing, I again had to give away around a second!!

In my opinion, unfortunately the way the system is now is very bad. If you are a troll or a blatant track cutter, you can actually do fine with it, you can cut the track all the time and get a relatively small penalty for doing so. But if you are a fair racer, who respects track limits but has the occasional moment going 10cm off the track once or twice per race, then you get a disproportional penalty for it, which can easily ruin your race or fights, especially in close racing.

Stewy32
10-07-2018, 18:09
Tomorrow I will try and reproduce it.I did it in an LMP2/LMP3/GTE/GT3 multiclass race at the Nouvelle Chicane.It may be XB1 only but I have noticed it works.

cpcdem
13-07-2018, 21:04
I think what you're seeing there is the penalty for cutting the inside of a corner is too lenient and running wide is more stringent. It's not just Monza.

Hmmm, just now I realized what you said. No I don't think this is the case, it's lenient if you really blatantly cut a chicane, but going just a bit to the inside is like a death penalty in PC2 :)

Just had a race in Silverstone National with the TCs, first lap somebody pushed me out wide to the left at the exit of the corner onto the Hangar straight, ended up in the grass, lost speed, lost my place to him already and allowed others to close down on me on the straight, and bang, slowdown penalty!!! Another 3 places lost because of that. Anyway, I said it's long race, let's try to recover, managed to do that, was 1st 4 laps before the end. And then I made a small mistake in the last turn, went just a very little to the inside of the white line, lifted throttle but no good, slowdown warning again. 2nd place was 1 second behind, passed me comfortably of course and had to give him another 3 seconds till the message went away. It was not only me, after the race others were talking about the penalties being insane, too.

Come on guys, I know it is not really a problem in offline racing, but why letting something like this cause so much frustration online, after so many patches? Unfortunately we cannot completely disable track limits (although several leagues have been forced to do exactly that) because then people start cutting blatantly, please put a little more care into multiplayer and improve issues like that. It's such a fantastic game when it works well, it's a shame frustrating people away from it online because the system is not calibrated (or because of the lots of multiplayer bugs, but that's another topic).

F2kSel
14-07-2018, 00:14
Exactly why I haven't raced online this year, people were just taping or pushing cars into the penalty traps. I think just a couple of warnings first is all that's needed that's what happens in real racing they don't penalize every indiscretion.

The slowdown should always apply if you pass cars by cutting even if pushed.

A Scott
14-07-2018, 03:28
I know everyone is different online, & with like minded people the pentalys are annoying, however at the moment am having a ton of races ruined by people just abusing track limits & getting away it, unless you play them at thier own game which a lot more seem to be doing so thier not cheated, if you race properly your just loosing points most races.

cpcdem
14-07-2018, 06:16
Exactly why I haven't raced online this year, people were just taping or pushing cars into the penalty traps. I think just a couple of warnings first is all that's needed that's what happens in real racing they don't penalize every indiscretion.

The slowdown should always apply if you pass cars by cutting even if pushed.

Agreed. Hasn't stopped me for racing (on the contrary!), but it is so much unneeded frustration at times. I just did a race in RRE and it was refreshing after a year racing in PC2 to have at last a great race online where we could race fiercely and to the limit, without worrying that we would go 1cm out of the track and given a death sentence for doing so. And nobody abused track limits, at least in this race, it was fair and intense. But on the other hand, in general PC2 is so much better in almost every aspect, so it is no option for me going to another sim, I just hope that eventually the penalties in PC2 will become a little more close to real life. Just make it not penalize you when you have already lost time or gained nothing, that's all we ask, I think it's not much and it will greatly improve the multiplayer experience.

MaximusN
14-07-2018, 06:46
I think what you're seeing there is the penalty for cutting the inside of a corner is too lenient and running wide is more stringent. It's not just Monza.
Ah okay, that might explain a lot of the discussions, because I ended up with the latter most of the time. And I felt I was (almost) losing time and still getting slapped with a relatively hefty slowdown.

And in some way it's a bit weird because people who cut corners on purpose tend to cut the apex.

hkraft300
16-07-2018, 03:00
Hmmm, just now I realized what you said. No I don't think this is the case, it's lenient if you really blatantly cut a chicane, but going just a bit to the inside is like a death penalty in PC2 :)

Going wide on exit I find is lenient for me. But I'm not that fast. A bit of a lift or a short shift does it. Most of the time if I lose time running wide, ignoring it works fine and the warning goes away at the next corner.

That said: I haven't raced Silverstone national. Some exit curbs of some tracks are more punishing for penalties than others. Which makes sense because some exits are more advantageous than others.


Ah okay, that might explain a lot of the discussions, because I ended up with the latter most of the time. And I felt I was (almost) losing time and still getting slapped with a relatively hefty slowdown.

And in some way it's a bit weird because people who cut corners on purpose tend to cut the apex.

I think we should drive according to how much of an "off" we've had. If I've had a little off at radillion I might just short shift and wear the warning til the next brake zone and it goes away. Or if I've gone really wide I'll just make sure I'm nice and slow to re join the track "serving" my penalty time in the process. There are ways around it, and often enough I've seen people exploit these cuts for the extra .5 seconds here and there.
As lenient as cutting the inside kerbs are, often enough there's dirt and sausages and what not. Not always though and those places are exploited.

cpcdem
16-07-2018, 05:40
Going wide on exit I find is lenient for me. But I'm not that fast. A bit of a lift or a short shift does it. Most of the time if I lose time running wide, ignoring it works fine and the warning goes away at the next corner.

That said: I haven't raced Silverstone national. Some exit curbs of some tracks are more punishing for penalties than others. Which makes sense because some exits are more advantageous than others.


Well, as I said I was pushed out to the grass in the straight, lost a place and my speed over there because of that, lost a lot of time already and then I got a slowdown as well.

Yeah, I know, sometimes the warning goes away anyway, but you do not know when it does and when it will simply give you a 2 second penalty for already losing 1. I had planned to be doing penalty tests before races, so I am prepared for that kind of stuff, but at the end I never did it, this is an awfully bad thing we are forced to do and I avoided it. But looks like I will for next races, as it is also not worth practicing for so long for a race, for it to be ruined by the "detection" system.

Today we had a race at Cadwell, it is so tight over there, it is extremely easy to do a small mistake, lose the braking and go a little wide. Of course again, no matter if I gained or lost anything, diiiiiiing, slowdown. But this time at least I did not care, I was crashed at the first lap and lost a minute in the pits for repairs and was last anyway, so I just took the penalties and kept my sanity.

hkraft300
16-07-2018, 15:22
Eh.
For a league race I guess you could turn off penalties.

cpcdem
16-07-2018, 16:17
Eh.
For a league race I guess you could turn off penalties.

One of the leagues I am racing at, they had penalties turned off, but I convinced them to turn them on, because some people where often completely straightening the chicanes this way and we didn't want to have somebody review all the replays for 1 hour races in total. My bad I guess :)

hkraft300
16-07-2018, 19:00
You do want someone to review race replays to DQ and ban cheaters like that though. Especially if they’ve been caught/ reported.

cpcdem
16-07-2018, 19:49
You do want someone to review race replays to DQ and ban cheaters like that though. Especially if they’ve been caught/ reported.

Ideally yes, but when you have race organizers who already go through the trouble of setting up everything, websites, forums, calendars, dedi servers etc out of their free time and their pockets, you can't really ask them to spend even more time and effort on reviewing the whole races for 15 drivers if they cut the track. Although some clubs do that and it is great, but I am sure they would all hope not to have to go through this.

But anyway, when a feature (which is basic for any sim) is not working properly, I think the natural expectation is that it gets improved, not that we have to turn it off. When the game was released, I thought it was just a temp problem which would be eventually improved and this is to be expected with a new game. Bun instead of that, during the last 10 months what happened is that after a couple of patches it became even a lot worse, after huge discussions here and elsewhere eventually that change was mostly reverted back, but we are still left with a system that's ruining races and fights, causing so much frustration.

cpcdem
19-07-2018, 01:50
So, league race in RBR today, with the TCs. Testing had shown during the practice session that if you go a little wide at least in corners 1 and 2, you always get a slowdown warning, no matter if you gain or lose time, but for those corners you can every single time ignore the message, go full throttle and it will eventually go away by itself. In most of the other corners, you need to slowdown, otherwise you do get a time penalty/lap invalidation.

Some of the people realized this, some others not, so in the discord channel during the race it was for a large part of it all about ("aha, you went wide, now you will get a slowdown! - Oh wait, you didn't?"). At the end, I finished in 3rd place, but was promoted to 2nd (guy in 1st was way faster than us), because the guy in 2nd did not know that going wide in turns 5-6 results to a penalty indeed, so he did get a 2 second one in the final laps.

That's what for a large part close racing has come up to, knowing from heart when, where and for how long you need to slowdown to keep the system happy. Penalty hunting has become a big part of it. IMO this is really bad and needs improving. At least give us some kind of indication of how much the system expects us to slow down, to make things a little more transparent at least.