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ZephyrRacing
15-07-2018, 19:53
I've just been watching some iRacing videos. One thing which looks really good on it are the mirror reflections - they all show reflections of different parts of the car, which looks so natural and seems quite immersive.

For example, the wing-mirrors reflect the sides and the rear of the car, like you'd expect. On the Audi R8 GT3 video I was just watching, the rear view mirror reflected the roll cage at the back of the car, the rear windscreen and the rear wing.

However, on Project CARS 2 (and other games, such as Project CARS 1 and Assetto Corsa) the 'reflection' is pretty much just the rear view display layered on top of each of the mirrors, and so there's no real sense of actual reflection.

My question is: how difficult would it be to implement this in the game, and would it be feasible? Of course, adding reflection data of different parts of each car for the different mirrors would be quite time consuming, but it would be so so immersive in VR! :D

cluck
15-07-2018, 20:32
It's a question of resources. To do it the way iRacing and LiveForSpeed does it would require rendering the entire car from cockpit view, which means some details would have to be sacrificed. It would certainly be nice though, I agree.

ZephyrRacing
15-07-2018, 20:58
It's a question of resources. To do it the way iRacing and LiveForSpeed does it would require rendering the entire car from cockpit view, which means some details would have to be sacrificed. It would certainly be nice though, I agree.

Ah, I didn't know the entire car was rendered.

I thought it was just a case of layering images of certain parts of the car onto each of the mirrors, in a similar way to pre-rendered ('baked') shadows, to give the reflection effect.

MrTulip
15-07-2018, 21:31
Yup, the mirror is not just a picture of the rear view plastered on top of the mirrors. In VR you can move around and see through the mirrors in different angles.

I agree that it would be awesome to see parts of the car in the view too, of course.

MarleyMoo
16-07-2018, 02:02
Yup, the mirror is not just a picture of the rear view plastered on top of the mirrors. In VR you can move around and see through the mirrors in different angles.

I agree that it would be awesome to see parts of the car in the view too, of course.

Well, it still kind of is just a view plastered on top of the mirrors, because the image in the mirror doesn't show stereoscopic depth. For sure you're right that the mirror view does change as you move around, it's just that the left and right displays use the same view in the mirror.

It'd be awesome if I can see my own face in the mirror ;)

MrTulip
16-07-2018, 12:26
it's just that the left and right displays use the same view in the mirror.

Not sure about this, I mean both left and right mirror angels can be adjusted separately in VR. Of course it might be that the actual point where the mirror image is calculated from is the same for both, even though angles differ; I haven't bothered checking that out. But they are very much 3d, and separate of each other.

MarleyMoo
17-07-2018, 06:29
Not sure about this, I mean both left and right mirror angels can be adjusted separately in VR. Of course it might be that the actual point where the mirror image is calculated from is the same for both, even though angles differ; I haven't bothered checking that out. But they are very much 3d, and separate of each other.

Oh I'm saying a single mirror as seen from the left and right eye. The image is the exact same texture, therefore the mirror acts like a small LCD display. It looks flat. Whereas IRL the mirror acts as a hole to peek into mirrored space.

MrTulip
17-07-2018, 21:24
Sorry, this is not what I see, and I look on all mirrors often when I race. The image and the angle are not the same in VR at least, in fact on some cars the mirrors have to be adjusted for them to be of any use.

But I don't do flat screen so it might be like that on those.

Killso2
20-07-2018, 00:13
Ah, I didn't know the entire car was rendered.

I thought it was just a case of layering images of certain parts of the car onto each of the mirrors, in a similar way to pre-rendered ('baked') shadows, to give the reflection effect.

I actually had the same idea as you, but, I think it's a bit complicated to make the pre-rendered interior moves as you move with your head when you're in VR.

Javaniceday
20-07-2018, 00:30
I just want to have the "lens" of the mirror looking back wasn't so wide. Everything in the mirror looks tiny tiny and it makes it hard to use them effectively....

nhitrac
20-07-2018, 06:58
Not sure about this, I mean both left and right mirror angels can be adjusted separately in VR.



Is there a reason why it cant be done in non-VR?

MrTulip
20-07-2018, 13:37
Is there a reason why it cant be done in non-VR?

3d mirrors are good for the feeling of it, but from the pure usability point of view they are not necessarily better. To have the perfect mirror images would mean that you'd have to adjust all mirrors after changing your seat position and height, unless this was somehow automated. It certainly is not something people would like to do every time they change their seat position in the game.

To get those fixed for all cars would probably have been quite a lot of work, or aforementioned automation devised and implemented. 3d mirrors were introduced to PCARS2 quite late in its development, and putting it in initially was probably a low hanging fruit, but doing a polishing run for all cars and use cases would have been other thing. As mentioned earlier some mirrors still shoot off in VR, so it certainly has not been the highest priority. And rightfully so; 2d mirrors are simply more practical all around, and unless you play in VR you are not able to see that much difference anyway.

Again not that I would not want to see perfect mirror implementation myself, just for the feeling of it. :)

venquessa
21-07-2018, 10:22
There seems to be a lot of these excuses:

... we can't do X because performance issues...
... we can't do Y because it's a lot of work...

On the first, PCars does not even come close to maxing out modern hardware with the sliders maxed. My 1070Ti runs mostly around 70% and doesn't even bring the fans on. The CPU is almost completely idle. So do you really mean you need to keep performance light for consoles? I didn't buy a game for consoles I bought a game for the PC, so please use the horse power of modern PCs and make the options switchable or disabled on consoles. Things like proper AI tyre model and ... full adjustable mirrors.

On the second. We paid a lot of money for Project Cars 2, some paid a lot of money for Project Cars 1. We actually EXPECT you do a lot of work. That's how it works. We pay you money, you develop a game. Shying away from things because they are a lot of work and I'm sure putting it off until project cars 3 is just getting old.

Zaskarspants
21-07-2018, 10:43
IIRC modeling the physics of the tyre in pcars2 is very complex using typically 2 cpu cores for the players car, so for the complex model to be used for the AI cars you would need a pc with 60 or so cores.

https://www.titancomputers.com/Titan-Intel-and-AMD-based-Server-Computers-s/290.htm

In a few years I expect 60 cores will be normal and full simulation for the cars possible.

MrTulip
21-07-2018, 11:00
@venquessa Not giving excuses and definitely I'm not representing SMS here with my comments, so I'm not trying to apology on their part either. I'm just saying how it was, from my perspective as a WMD member.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but my personal opinion is that you get an awful lot for your money already.

I personally wanted poppies amongst the grass. Did they happen? No. Am I devastated about that? No.

Competition may do things better regarding mirrors; there are always features where one shines brighter than others. For me the mirrors are just not the most important thing in the world as long as they work and give you a relatively good idea what is happening around you.

venquessa
21-07-2018, 12:04
It's a racing simulator. There are a few things that have to be right. All are to do with racing.

Mirrors are a key part of racing, so they should get plenty of attention. Poppies at the side of the road.... not so much :) Not be able to adjust the mirrors is annoying. I have a 21:9 monitor, so I expand the field of view out and move the driving position forwards so I can see past the unrealistic positioned head stays on the seat. (On that point, when you move the view back the SEAT should move, not sink the drivers head into the seat.) Then I lower the driving position to be able to see the dash behind the steering wheel... you know like in reality. However the mirrors are pointing at nothing when I do that. The off side mirror I can't actually see because it's behind roll cage. If I move the seat back so I can see the mirrors I can't see to my left or right because the head stays get in the way. This leaves me using the "Look behind" button instead.

The AI are a fundamental part of racing, what with them being the competitors for offline racing. They have to be right. I would view the AI and how they race as an absolute critical feature to the game.

I just checked and my CPU is running at 20% with a field of 16, GPU at 75%. So there is room to make the tyre model better for the AI make the game consistently competitive. Even using GPU-Compute. An AI Fidelity slider even. Though granted I do have a bit of a power horse in my PC and not everyone does. The AI simply have to deal with the same race you are, the same tyre constrictions and wear, the same weather and the same rules. If they aren't then, whats the point? You either have to remove difficulty for the "AI Effect" in case they start cheating or just simply lose in a frustratingly unrealistic way. Setting the difficulty low enough to counter the AI cheating and you find yourself driving off into the distance and a boring race.

I think if my money had been spent on the racing aspects I would have settled for less bling, less eye-candy, less cars and less tracks. However, business is business and there are probably 10 times more people who buy it as casual gamers who want bling and a huge number of cars and tracks than there are people like me. :(

MrTulip
21-07-2018, 16:06
It's a racing simulator. There are a few things that have to be right. All are to do with racing.

Mirrors are a key part of racing, so they should get plenty of attention. Poppies at the side of the road.... not so much :) Not be able to adjust the mirrors is annoying. I have a 21:9 monitor, so I expand the field of view out and move the driving position forwards so I can see past the unrealistic positioned head stays on the seat. (On that point, when you move the view back the SEAT should move, not sink the drivers head into the seat.) Then I lower the driving position to be able to see the dash behind the steering wheel... you know like in reality. However the mirrors are pointing at nothing when I do that. The off side mirror I can't actually see because it's behind roll cage. If I move the seat back so I can see the mirrors I can't see to my left or right because the head stays get in the way. This leaves me using the "Look behind" button instead.


Ok, I do get your point and frustration with the mirrors. Lining them up on flat screens can be problematic (impossible even) when one uses natural or close to natural FOV.

Don't forget the virtual mirror! The edit screen for the HUD has bugged in the past, so it has been easy to miss; it just didn't become visible when it should.