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cpcdem
19-08-2018, 22:00
Yeah... I think you hit on something, race preference probably factors into how you feel about tuning. If you're running longer races, then stability/predictability at threshold becomes more and more important. Running hard and consistent for 5 or 10 laps isn't the same as doing it for 25 laps over changing track conditions (weather, temp, etc). The improved stability is also essential for maintaining tires over longer stints. I could see the shorter stints you race, the less important tuning being.

Edit: Also... We should start talking about what we tune and why, instead of whether or not to tune. If you don't tune, you don't tune. If you do, then sharing thoughts and info will benefit all. :)

Agreed, but we need a new thread for that, because judging by the title, doing it in this one would be going offtopic in an offtopic thread that was created by splitting offtopic content from another offtopic thread :)

GrimeyDog
19-08-2018, 23:55
Agreed, but we need a new thread for that, because judging by the title, doing it in this one would be going offtopic in an offtopic thread that was created by splitting offtopic content from another offtopic thread :)

LOL what a Mind bender.

GrimeyDog
20-08-2018, 00:11
Ok here we go... props to Mad AL!!! Long Beach, BMW 1series M coupe time is now .320 lower with a time of 1:30.144!!! Mad Al put that work In!!! I duuno if i can beat that with a stock tune:confused: That little edge i got to get the top time wasn't easy driving stock tune... it felt like it was at the limit and i dunno how much more or if stock tune can give better results.

Mad Al ... yup we know your watching post and share your thoughts.

Mad Al
20-08-2018, 00:57
well, I could only get within 3/4 of a second with the gamepad and a single screen... so that was with a wheel in VR (yes I'm Mad Al2 as well).

my take on tuning, I generally don't bother, mostly because when I do I generally make matters worse (only with cars, I'm fine with setting up a bike).. in fact most of the time I forget to even take out fuel for Q runs
On the secondary subject, aids or none, I was doing a consistent 30.6 with all the aids on, and dropped half a second (but slightly less consistent) with them off. They definitely help more with the gamepad, mostly due to the less accurate braking (I'm fine on throttle control).. maybe I need to develop a load cell trigger for braking on a gamepad.

and a final thought.. outright speed is less important than consistency.. I'd rather be a few tenths off and keep it on the island that be faster and throwing it into the weeds every other lap... useful when racing bikes.. as falling off was potentially expensive and bloody painful (luckily I only ended up in the hospital once and only threw it down the road 5 times in 5 seasons, two of those being due to mechanical failures, two due to overheating the front tyre.. including the one in the avatar)

GrimeyDog
20-08-2018, 02:15
well, I could only get within 3/4 of a second with the gamepad and a single screen... so that was with a wheel in VR (yes I'm Mad Al2 as well).

my take on tuning, I generally don't bother, mostly because when I do I generally make matters worse (only with cars, I'm fine with setting up a bike).. in fact most of the time I forget to even take out fuel for Q runs
On the secondary subject, aids or none, I was doing a consistent 30.6 with all the aids on, and dropped half a second (but slightly less consistent) with them off. They definitely help more with the gamepad, mostly due to the less accurate braking (I'm fine on throttle control).. maybe I need to develop a load cell trigger for braking on a gamepad.

and a final thought.. outright speed is less important than consistency.. I'd rather be a few tenths off and keep it on the island that be faster and throwing it into the weeds every other lap... useful when racing bikes.. as falling off was potentially expensive and bloody painful (luckily I only ended up in the hospital once and only threw it down the road 5 times in 5 seasons, two of those being due to mechanical failures, two due to overheating the front tyre.. including the one in the avatar)

Agree 100% Nice Time too:cool:

cpcdem
20-08-2018, 03:09
The battle rages on! Managed to break the 1:30 barrier, let's see how further down we can get it. Who said that TT is not perfect for improving one's skill?

I used default loose setup, and both TC and ABS enabled. Made some attempts also without them, but clearly that's not for me :)

GrimeyDog
20-08-2018, 08:50
The battle rages on! Managed to break the 1:30 barrier, let's see how further down we can get it. Who said that TT is not perfect for improving one's skill?

I used default loose setup, and both TC and ABS enabled. Made some attempts also without them, but clearly that's not for me :)
Im Gonna give it a Go when i get in from work....

I Must admit this TT stuff is Great and Gives the Game New Life :eagerness: but if I cant keep up I'm gonna Get on the TT is Boring band wagon because the times are getting too quick to keep up with:cower: :p LMAO.

morpwr
20-08-2018, 11:16
Im Gonna give it a Go when i get in from work....

I Must admit this TT stuff is Great and Gives the Game New Life :eagerness: but if I cant keep up I'm gonna Get on the TT is Boring band wagon because the times are getting too quick to keep up with:cower: :p LMAO.


I managed to match my time with a mostly default setup last night. Just air pressure and no bump stops. I just hate bump stops. Now if I can get into the 1:30s ill be happy.

Haiden
20-08-2018, 11:20
Agreed, but we need a new thread for that, because judging by the title, doing it in this one would be going offtopic in an offtopic thread that was created by splitting offtopic content from another offtopic thread :)

That's true. But the thread title and debate seems pointless, since no one cares which way you go. At least talking about what to tune would be a productive conversation.

GrimeyDog
20-08-2018, 11:28
That's true. But the threat title and debate seems pointless, since no one cares which way you go. At least talking about what to tune would be a productive conversation.

This I Agree with because its all about individual Choice and Preference... What 1 Loves the other May Not.

Konan
20-08-2018, 13:22
Also... We should start talking about what we tune and why, instead of whether or not to tune. If you don't tune, you don't tune. If you do, then sharing thoughts and info will benefit all.

...et voila...

rich1e I
20-08-2018, 15:12
Long Beach? If you manage to get a top time AND not use the pit exit lane, which the game should not allow anyway because nobody uses it IRL, then it's an even bigger achievement :cool:

Haiden
20-08-2018, 15:55
Long Beach? If you manage to get a top time AND not use the pit exit lane, which the game should not allow anyway because nobody uses it IRL, then it's an even bigger achievement :cool:

I wish that rule was enforced more.

Mad Al
20-08-2018, 16:00
I wish that rule was enforced more.

That's somewhat complicated as most pit exit lanes are valid to use and the general issue is people crossing from the pit lane exit onto the track, not the other way around, it would have required some additional coding to add an exclusion for one track.

cpcdem
20-08-2018, 16:04
That's true. But the thread title and debate seems pointless, since no one cares which way you go. At least talking about what to tune would be a productive conversation.

I think both discussions are useful. About "to tune or not to tune" (and I am now getting offtopic here :)), a lot of people believe that being fast is all about tuning, I am sure you get that very often is public lobbies, people asking for the setup, asking what's the setup trick you use etc etc. While in reality, it's only practice, practice and more practice that can give real improvements, tuning can hardly gain you a second in most of the cases, usually a lot less (I know it helps with stability in long races, more about it later). I used to think the same thing myself and I admit I still often think of it, when I join a public lobby and I am 2 seconds or more slower in some class I sometimes think that the other guys has a good tune, until I remember the rule above, forget about tuning and I go spend the practice time needed to become competitive.

About what to tune, I think it's important to realize we are not adjusting parameters of the real world, but of the model the devs have created in each sim. I read so often people giving advice about how to adjust the setup, based on real life racing experience, going into details like toe will do that and this, in conjunction with x% critical dampening and y rack etc etc, which might indeed hold true in RL, but a sim is not real life, we are very very far from being able to precisely simulate detailed car dynamics with a personal computer, which also needs to take care of things like graphics display, AI, track conditions and so on and on and on. I was amused that even in Grid Autosport, which has very basic physics simulation, people were suggesting that x percent diff, combined with aero (general, front/rear adjustment was not available...) and brake bias (which worked the opposite way than in RL...) would give this and that result etc. From what I read in rF2 it is always faster to go to the absolute minimum allowable tire pressures, in PCARS2 a 100lt full fuel tank only gives a few tenths per lap deficit, in PCARS1 it was fastest using zero camber etc etc. No sim at all gets close to reality regarding tuning IMO. In all sims, some aspects of tuning make a very small difference and some others a much bigger difference than in real life.

So, in my opinion, we need to tune according to the specific sim we are racing at and the way it has modeled various aspects of the car. For example in PCARS2, depending on the car used:

- it is important to have good tire temps and pressures, so if they go very off, yes it is very useful to tune those, especially for long races. In PCARS2, also brake ducts have a big influence on that (but not on speed, like it was in PCARS1), so they also need to be taken into account, while this does not happen in other sims.
- I think also brake bias is often important to adjust, to bring it to the rear because in most cars by default it is put very conservatively to the front for stability, which causes trouble at turn in.
- Brake pressure, for cars which do not have ABS, to help avoiding locking up
- Diffs, for cars that are very oversteery or understeery on power
- Downforce, for obvious reasons. Need to take into consideration how much effect this has on drag, for each car. For example, for some cars, front downforce has no drag penalty at all.
- Ride height, lowering it usually gives improved stability in flat tracks (it certainly does in the road cars)
- TC level, in many cars it's faster with TC off, but using a bit of TC as safety net is a good compromise.
- Engine braking, as it can make the car more stable under braking/downshifting, which can be very useful in long races.
- Roll bars, increasing front/decreasing rear can lead to more oversteery behavior and vice versa if that's needed, but IMO this is trail and error to find the suitable values. Just adjust values, test and see if it was helpful or not, I would not compare the in game values to the real life ones, in order to decide what I need to use...

Wondering what your thoughts are...

Haiden
20-08-2018, 16:05
That's somewhat complicated as most pit exit lanes are valid to use and the general issue is people crossing from the pit lane exit onto the track, not the other way around, it would have required some additional coding to add an exclusion for one track.

True and understood. But on tracks like Donington, it would be nice if that triggered a cut track. I've seen guys stealing a lot of track from that lane, and it really makes a difference for entry in T1.

Haiden
20-08-2018, 16:31
I think both discussions are useful. About "to tune or not to tune" (and I am now getting offtopic here :)), a lot of people believe that being fast is all about tuning, I am sure you get that very often is public lobbies, people asking for the setup, asking what's the setup trick you use etc etc. While in reality, it's only practice, practice and more practice that can give real improvements, tuning can hardly gain you a second in most of the cases, usually a lot less (I know it helps with stability in long races, more about it later). I used to think the same thing myself and I admit I still often think of it, when I join a public lobby and I am 2 seconds or more slower in some class I sometimes think that the other guys has a good tune, until I remember the rule above, forget about tuning and I go spend the practice time needed to become competitive.

About what to tune, I think it's important to realize we are not adjusting parameters of the real world, but of the model the devs have created in each sim. I read so often people giving advice about how to adjust the setup, based on real life racing experience, going into details like toe will do that and this, in conjunction with x% critical dampening and y rack etc etc, which might indeed hold true in RL, but a sim is not real life, we are very very far from being able to precisely simulate detailed car dynamics with a personal computer, which also needs to take care of things like graphics display, AI, track conditions and so on and on and on. I was amused that even in Grid Autosport, which has very basic physics simulation, people were suggesting that x percent diff, combined with aero (general, front/rear adjustment was not available...) and brake bias (which worked the opposite way than in RL...) would give this and that result etc. From what I read in rF2 it is always faster to go to the absolute minimum allowable tire pressures, in PCARS2 a 100lt full fuel tank only gives a few tenths per lap deficit, in PCARS1 it was fastest using zero camber etc etc. No sim at all gets close to reality regarding tuning IMO. In all sims, some aspects of tuning make a very small difference and some others a much bigger difference than in real life.

So, in my opinion, we need to tune according to the specific sim we are racing at and the way it has modeled various aspects of the car. For example in PCARS2, depending on the car used:

- it is important to have good tire temps and pressures, so if they go very off, yes it is very useful to tune those, especially for long races. In PCARS2, also brake ducts have a big influence on that (but not on speed, like it was in PCARS1), so they also need to be taken into account, while this does not happen in other sims.
- I think also brake bias is often important to adjust, to bring it to the rear because in most cars by default it is put very conservatively to the front for stability, which causes trouble at turn in.
- Brake pressure, for cars which do not have ABS, to help avoiding locking up
- Diffs, for cars that are very oversteery or understeery on power
- Downforce, for obvious reasons. Need to take into consideration how much effect this has on drag, for each car. For example, for some cars, fron downforce has no drag penalty at all.
- Ride height, lowering it usually gives improved stability (it certainly does in the road cars)
- TC level, in many cars it's faster with TC off, but using a bit of TC as safety net is a god compromise.
- Engine braking, as it can make the car more stable under braking/downshifting, which can be very useful in long races.
- Roll bars, increasing front/decreasing rear can lead to more oversteery behavior and vice versa if that's needed, but IMO this is trail and error to find the suitable values. Just adjust values, test and see if it was helpful or not, I would not compare the in game values to the real life ones, in order to decide what I need to use...

Wondering what your thoughts are...

I agree, trying to make one-to-one equivalencies with RL settings is not a good idea. But you're right, a lot of people do make the attempt. I think you make a good point about tuning being difference from sim to sim, and it's worth noting that we're talking about PCars2 specifically. That's also why I tend to focus more on the "if this, then look here" kind of logic, which just says, "this is something to consider." How much, how little, or if you adjust it at all, depends on your personal preference and style. As for the above settings...

- Agree about tires. If I have to choose between the two (pressure or temp), I try to get the pressures correct, to maximize the contact patch. In PCars2, I haven't really run into issues of not being able to get both in the zone. With AC, I often have to settle for pressure or temp, and it's often confusing as to why the temps don't get inline. I like PCars2 better in this regard.
- Agree on brake bias. The defaults are usually too far forward, because understeer and front locking is easy for casual racers to handle. I think it's good have this mapped for long races, too. I often find the need to adjust it for long races, or mid-length MP racers, with mandatory pit stops, but you don't want to waste time changing tires.
- Brake pressure. Absolutely must in cars without ABS. I typically tune it to avoid lockup in the hardest braking zone. T1 at Monza, Imola, or Barcelona would be an example.
- Differential. Same. A click or two lower on the rear can improve entry. A click higher on the front can improve traction on exit. But I don't usually have a problem with that, so I tend to lower the front a click or two for more power.
- Ride Height - Same thoughts. I usually drop cars at least one click--front and rear--to start. The defaults seem to all be able to take one or two clicks.
- TC - Same thoughts. Although, after the recent test of Assists On/Off--which didn't make a difference to my exits. I've been turning them off, and then only switching them on when it rains.
- Braking Mapping. I used to either set that to 0 or 1, but after recent tests, I now increase it to 10. The stability it provided under braking wasn't needed, but the drag was slowing me down. I find I take corners better without it.
- Roll bars. I agree on the use--handling oversteer/understeer. Oddly, I don't think I've adjusted it on many cars in PCars2. While softening it can help with oversteer/understeer, IMO, it comes at a price, because the softer you go, the more body roll is allowed. On tracks with chicanes or a high-speed complex like Silverstone's Maggot/Becketts, that body roll can be a hindrance. Also, the only time I look at Roll Bars is when I'm getting oversteer mid-corner, or see one side lifting in replays under heavy cornering. If the OS is happening on entry or exit, I'd look at Diff or Springs rate.

Atak Kat
20-08-2018, 17:01
Some things I almost always tune, and why, are below. I'm sure there are strange things in my methods, or ways to edge out a bit more. But below is often a starting point and get's me able to have a chance at a top 5 grid position for the start (unless I accidentally end up in a lobby full of speed-demons). Fine-tuning from the below, based on how it drives, air/track temps, track, and weather conditions.
(most of this based on the GT3 cars, pretty much any of them, but so far seems to also be an OK starting point for other cars as well)

Tire pressures - usually starting 1.3-1.35 (fronts usually about 0.05 higher than the rears), then adjusting as I see how quali goes (trying to get to 1.75/1.8 range). Look at the general temps and if conditions seem a bit 'cold' I might raise the pressures a bit more to start.
Tires - almost always choose Soft Slicks to start. Only go to Hards if the track temp seems really hot (like over 40C) or if the race is going to be longer than 15 laps (even up to 20 I might stay with softs.)
Brake balance - almost always shift it a couple of clicks more to the rear (vs. default). Seems to suit me better and prevent me locking the fronts especially when I'm just about to turn in. I have the balance mapped to a knob on my button box and then make further adjustments there when driving the car. I usually go as far to the back as I can, until I notice the rear is locking (and kicking out) on heavy braking and turn-in... then just gradually go one click to the front until it disappears.
Brake pressure - I usually find this is a bit high, and can cause locking for me. I start around 90%, and find this works better for me rather than messing with the ABS.
Brake ducts - almost always they are too open, and can close to 50% range. Then, further adjust as I see the brake temps in quali, but around here is usually decent. Keeping them more closed will give you a bit of extra speed on the longer straights, but also it will keep your brakes a bit hotter, and result in your tire pressures going up a bit. So sometimes I manage this more to control the tire pressure when hot, rather than the actual brake temps (to be honest, I have never really noticed to much impact on the braking when the brakes are really hot... maybe in longer races it does).
Downforce - hard to say, but I prefer a bit more downforce both front and rear. Even at the cost of some speed on the straights, I like the extra DF and it just gives me more consistency. I might lighten it up a bit on some tracks if I'm way off the pace vs. the other cars (either online or AI).
Camber - I don't mess too much with the default. I might get to this only if I really notice the inside/outside tire temps are very different. If anything I usually reduce the camber, rather than increase it (so, more towards straight up and down, rather than more angled)
Steering Ratio - I always make it tighter. Otherwise, I find myself running wide on every corner, and it's not the car... it's me just not giving enough steering input. So usually around 9.5:1 or 10.0:1 (this on PS4). But I find that on PC, this is too tight, and on PC it's more like around 12.0 or 12.5. Not sure why it would be different between PS4/PC, but it's one thing that I personally think is different between PS4 and PC setup (it was one of the first things that I found when driving PC2 with my new PC)
Anti Roll Bars - almost always I reduce them a few clicks from the default. I find it give me more stability and less surprises in the corners, which equals more consistency. Can't give a range, but just softer. If I'm getting too much understeer, I soften the front. If too much oversteer, soften the rear.
Spring Rates - I don't often change. Maybe if the ARB adjustments are not working the way I would like. I usually only get into the Spring Rates if I'm really deep in a tune and trying something new to see if I can find a few 10ths here and there.
Ride Height - I will usually lower it a bit. But not too low, I'm convinced there are tracks and corners where the car steps out in a corner because it is bottoming out (again, maybe I'm imagining it.) Sometimes I will watch the telemetry screen to see if anything goes drastically RED in some of the corners. But, if there is RAIN expected, I definitely increase it a 3-5mm from my base setup (perhaps more), because I'm also convinced the low ride-height is what causes a lot of the aquaplaning in the wet.
Dampers - almost never tune because I don't know what I'm doing here. Need to educate myself or use the tuning software to learn something here.
Fuel - always reduce to about 30L - I'm rarely in races much more than 10 laps. I don't really try to run low-fuel for qualifying too much. Only if I'm really happy with everything else in the tune. Then, I might mess around with low fuel to try to get a fast quali lap. But normally I just qualify with race fuel load.
Radiator - usually reduce to 50%, and go from there. In really hot conditions, perhaps up to 65/70% but rarely more than that. Smaller settings can give a bit of extra speed on the longer straights.
Engine Braking - I always put it to the highest number, and then back off a click or two. If you are in a corner, and downshift a bit early, the lower settings can cause your rear end to step out and lose control. I'm getting better at the downshift timing lately though.
ECU - almost always start with Traction Control around 10 or 11%. I'm getting better on the throttle control, so starting to increase this a bit. Depending on the car, I find that keeping this to a lower number (even 8%) can make a big difference to how long your rear tires can last (Porsche GT3 especially)
ABS - I don't really mess with too much.
Diff settings are still a bit of a black box for me. Right or wrong, I tend to set clutches 4, Preload about 100Nm, Power 50-60, Coast 40-45. I find this gives me a pretty decent balance overall, at least as far as I can tell. I might lower the Power a bit if I find that I'm pushing to the outside when I'm exiting a corners on the gas.


Ready to learn something.

Schnizz58
20-08-2018, 17:19
I'm enjoying this discussion (and the one in the other thread) even if I'm not contributing much. Up until now I've been taking the default loose tune and adjusting things when something annoys me. That gets the tune into the "doesn't suck" realm but is well short of optimum. I started looking at the PC2 Tuner app the other day (thanks Haiden - somehow I was never aware of its existence) and it has made a world of difference for me. In my engineer's brain it immediately made sense to me. It's great for getting the bump settings right; one thing I wish it did was a step function input in the other direction for help in setting rebound values.


- it is important to have good tire temps and pressures, so if they go very off, yes it is very useful to tune those, especially for long races. In PCARS2, also brake ducts have a big influence on that (but not on speed, like it was in PCARS1), so they also need to be taken into account, while this does not happen in other sims.
- Agree about tires. If I have to choose between the two (pressure or temp), I try to get the pressures correct, to maximize the contact patch. In PCars2, I haven't really run into issues of not being able to get both in the zone. With AC, I often have to settle for pressure or temp, and it's often confusing as to why the temps don't get inline. I like PCars2 better in this regard.
This is one of the few things I have been trying to get really dialed in on my tunes. Lighter cars have trouble getting up to temperature (Ginetta G40 Junior for example) but I've had no trouble with the GT4, GT3 and ST classes.


- I think also brake bias is often important to adjust, to bring it to the rear because in most cars by default it is put very conservatively to the front for stability, which causes trouble at turn in.
- Agree on brake bias. The defaults are usually too far forward, because understeer and front locking is easy for casual racers to handle. I think it's good have this mapped for long races, too. I often find the need to adjust it for long races, or mid-length MP racers, with mandatory pit stops, but you don't want to waste time changing tires.
Good information! This is not something I've paid a lot of attention to so far unless I'm locking up the rears. Sounds like I need to give it more thought.


- Brake pressure, for cars which do not have ABS, to help avoiding locking up
- Brake pressure. Absolutely must in cars without ABS. I typically tune it to avoid lockup in the hardest braking zone. T1 at Monza, Imola, or Barcelona would be an example.
Totally agree here. Most of the cars I've been driving in PC2 have ABS so I just set it to 100%. But in PC1 I was very careful to set it to avoid lockups as Haiden suggests.


- Diffs, for cars that are very oversteery or understeery on power
- Differential. Same. A click or two lower on the rear can improve entry. A click higher on the front can improve traction on exit. But I don't usually have a problem with that, so I tend to lower the front a click or two for more power.
I like a bit of power-on oversteer on corner exit but some cars are ridiculous. So in those cases I end up increasing the power ramp. Aside from that, I don't mess with it much.


- Downforce, for obvious reasons. Need to take into consideration how much effect this has on drag, for each car. For example, for some cars, fron downforce has no drag penalty at all.
On a power track, I will start with only a little DF and increase it if the car is too much of a handful.


- Ride height, lowering it usually gives improved stability (it certainly does in the road cars)
- Ride Height - Same thoughts. I usually drop cars at least one click--front and rear--to start. The defaults seem to all be able to take one or two clicks.
This is also good to know. I've not adjusted it much unless I know the track is not too bumpy.


- TC level, in many cars it's faster with TC off, but using a bit of TC as safety net is a god compromise.
- TC - Same thoughts. Although, after the recent test of Assists On/Off--which didn't make a difference to my exits. I've been turning them off, and then only switching them on when it rains.
Ditto. I set it to a fairly high value except for wet setups.


- Engine braking, as it can make the car more stable under braking/downshifting, which can be very useful in long races.
- Braking Mapping. I used to either set that to 0 or 1, but after recent tests, I now increase it to 10. The stability it provided under braking wasn't needed, but the drag was slowing me down. I find I take corners better without it.
On some of the cars I was driving early on, it was too low and sometimes would cause the rear to break loose. I usually keep it in the middle somewhere.


- Roll bars, increasing front/decreasing rear can lead to more oversteery behavior and vice versa if that's needed, but IMO this is trail and error to find the suitable values. Just adjust values, test and see if it was helpful or not, I would not compare the in game values to the real life ones, in order to decide what I need to use...
- Roll bars. I agree on the use--handling oversteer/understeer. Oddly, I don't think I've adjusted it on many cars in PCars2. While softening it can help with oversteer/understeer, IMO, it comes at a price, because the softer you go, the more body roll is allowed. On tracks with chicanes or a high-speed complex like Silverstone's Maggot/Becketts, that body roll can be a hindrance. Also, the only time I look at Roll Bars is when I'm getting oversteer mid-corner, or see one side lifting in replays under heavy cornering. If the OS is happening on entry or exit, I'd look at Diff or Springs rate.
This is the main tool I use to combat mid-corner over/understeeer but Haiden is on point. Too much body roll can be a problem and it can disrupt aero performance of cars that rely heavily on aero (prototypes and some open wheelers).

Another thing I've never spent much time working on are bump stops. Are they that critical and how do you go about setting them up? I would guess the approach would be start without them and if you're bottoming out increase?

rich1e I
20-08-2018, 17:35
True and understood. But on tracks like Donington, it would be nice if that triggered a cut track. I've seen guys stealing a lot of track from that lane, and it really makes a difference for entry in T1.

Yep, Donington is another example. Long Beach gives you at least half a second if you use that lane. The problem for coders is that the game must allow to drive on that lane for cars that pitted but invalidate the lap if a car crossed the line from the track. I can imagine it's not that simple to code something like that.
I think people just shouldn't use it. It's silly in my view and if you get used to it you can ruin other people's and your own race as well.
It's actually a shame that top league organizers like AOR allowed to use it.

Haiden
20-08-2018, 18:36
@Atak Kat - I forgot about Brake Ducts. That's one of the first things I drop. Immediately lower it to 55%, then adjust from there. 75% is just too much for most tracks. Camber I'm the same. Unless the outside or inside is giving me trouble, I leave it at default. Once in a blue moon, I've increased it to improve cornering, but that was definitely more the exception.

Question regarding tires... What about really rough tracks, like the Nords. I find Hards seem to work better there, and I've always assumed it was because they just hold up better on that surface, less deformation. I've been meaning to test it on other tracks like Bannochbrae and Watkins, but I always forget when I'm practicing, and then never want to risk it blind when the race starts...LOL. Have you compared Softs and Hards on a rough track?

@Schnizz58 - Definitely worth messing around with Brake Bias. I find that a click or two to the rear, can resolve many front locking issues and let you run higher brake pressures, which improves your braking overall. I prefer that approach when possible, because although lowering brake pressure can also reduce lock up issues, it does so by reducing the brakes ability to slow the car, instead of improving it. You also might see improvements on turn-in shifting some of that to the rear. Trick is, too much to the rear, and you'll have oversteer issues. Some cars just can't handle much on the rear.

You can thank MoPwr for the PC2 Tuner tool. He turned me on to it. Give the it a shot. If it weren't for that tool, I wouldn't mess with Bump and Rebound, either. But the tool makes it easier to adjust those and set your suspension to your preference--oversteer or understeer leaning.

Atak Kat
20-08-2018, 19:14
@Atak Kat - Question regarding tires... What about really rough tracks, like the Nords. I find Hards seem to work better there, and I've always assumed it was because they just hold up better on that surface, less deformation. I've been meaning to test it on other tracks like Bannochbrae and Watkins, but I always forget when I'm practicing, and then never want to risk it blind when the race starts...LOL. Have you compared Softs and Hards on a rough track?

Haiden, sorry but I can't really tell you much on that. Although I do enjoy Norschleife, I don't think I have enough knowledge to know if they make a difference. Or, said differently, I'm not consistent enough there to really tell. In general I just find the hards a bit more slippy on braking or cornering, so I just default to the softs unless the conditions clearly seem to favour the hards. Problem is that I have yet to really find a race where choosing the hards really paid off.... too often I end up dropping back, and then in the last laps I'm not really gaining enough on the leaders to make a difference. I'm usually on circuits and haven't really gotten into longer races so I might not have the right experience to tell.

But for the brake balance I really think this is important. When you get it back further, I find I can brake harder and slow the car much faster. Less lock ups and you can actually control the car more when steering into the corner on the brakes. If anything it just gives more confidence and feeling like you are in control.

Schnizz58
20-08-2018, 20:06
Question regarding tires... What about really rough tracks, like the Nords. I find Hards seem to work better there, and I've always assumed it was because they just hold up better on that surface, less deformation. I've been meaning to test it on other tracks like Bannochbrae and Watkins, but I always forget when I'm practicing, and then never want to risk it blind when the race starts...LOL. Have you compared Softs and Hards on a rough track?

Do you mean rough as in surface abrasiveness? If so, I'm pretty sure that one of the mods commented one time that all tracks have the same roughness with respect to things like tire deg.

Olijke Poffer
20-08-2018, 20:09
Some things I almost always tune, and why, are below. I'm sure there are strange things in my methods, or ways to edge out a bit more. But below is often a starting point and get's me able to have a chance at a top 5 grid position for the start (unless I accidentally end up in a lobby full of speed-demons). Fine-tuning from the below, based on how it drives, air/track temps, track, and weather conditions.
(most of this based on the GT3 cars, pretty much any of them, but so far seems to also be an OK starting point for other cars as well)

Tire pressures - usually starting 1.3-1.35 (fronts usually about 0.05 higher than the rears), then adjusting as I see how quali goes (trying to get to 1.75/1.8 range). Look at the general temps and if conditions seem a bit 'cold' I might raise the pressures a bit more to start.
Tires - almost always choose Soft Slicks to start. Only go to Hards if the track temp seems really hot (like over 40C) or if the race is going to be longer than 15 laps (even up to 20 I might stay with softs.)
Brake balance - almost always shift it a couple of clicks more to the rear (vs. default). Seems to suit me better and prevent me locking the fronts especially when I'm just about to turn in. I have the balance mapped to a knob on my button box and then make further adjustments there when driving the car. I usually go as far to the back as I can, until I notice the rear is locking (and kicking out) on heavy braking and turn-in... then just gradually go one click to the front until it disappears.
Brake pressure - I usually find this is a bit high, and can cause locking for me. I start around 90%, and find this works better for me rather than messing with the ABS.
Brake ducts - almost always they are too open, and can close to 50% range. Then, further adjust as I see the brake temps in quali, but around here is usually decent. Keeping them more closed will give you a bit of extra speed on the longer straights, but also it will keep your brakes a bit hotter, and result in your tire pressures going up a bit. So sometimes I manage this more to control the tire pressure when hot, rather than the actual brake temps (to be honest, I have never really noticed to much impact on the braking when the brakes are really hot... maybe in longer races it does).
Downforce - hard to say, but I prefer a bit more downforce both front and rear. Even at the cost of some speed on the straights, I like the extra DF and it just gives me more consistency. I might lighten it up a bit on some tracks if I'm way off the pace vs. the other cars (either online or AI).
Camber - I don't mess too much with the default. I might get to this only if I really notice the inside/outside tire temps are very different. If anything I usually reduce the camber, rather than increase it (so, more towards straight up and down, rather than more angled)
Steering Ratio - I always make it tighter. Otherwise, I find myself running wide on every corner, and it's not the car... it's me just not giving enough steering input. So usually around 9.5:1 or 10.0:1 (this on PS4). But I find that on PC, this is too tight, and on PC it's more like around 12.0 or 12.5. Not sure why it would be different between PS4/PC, but it's one thing that I personally think is different between PS4 and PC setup (it was one of the first things that I found when driving PC2 with my new PC)
Anti Roll Bars - almost always I reduce them a few clicks from the default. I find it give me more stability and less surprises in the corners, which equals more consistency. Can't give a range, but just softer. If I'm getting too much understeer, I soften the front. If too much oversteer, soften the rear.
Spring Rates - I don't often change. Maybe if the ARB adjustments are not working the way I would like. I usually only get into the Spring Rates if I'm really deep in a tune and trying something new to see if I can find a few 10ths here and there.
Ride Height - I will usually lower it a bit. But not too low, I'm convinced there are tracks and corners where the car steps out in a corner because it is bottoming out (again, maybe I'm imagining it.) Sometimes I will watch the telemetry screen to see if anything goes drastically RED in some of the corners. But, if there is RAIN expected, I definitely increase it a 3-5mm from my base setup (perhaps more), because I'm also convinced the low ride-height is what causes a lot of the aquaplaning in the wet.
Dampers - almost never tune because I don't know what I'm doing here. Need to educate myself or use the tuning software to learn something here.
Fuel - always reduce to about 30L - I'm rarely in races much more than 10 laps. I don't really try to run low-fuel for qualifying too much. Only if I'm really happy with everything else in the tune. Then, I might mess around with low fuel to try to get a fast quali lap. But normally I just qualify with race fuel load.
Radiator - usually reduce to 50%, and go from there. In really hot conditions, perhaps up to 65/70% but rarely more than that. Smaller settings can give a bit of extra speed on the longer straights.
Engine Braking - I always put it to the highest number, and then back off a click or two. If you are in a corner, and downshift a bit early, the lower settings can cause your rear end to step out and lose control. I'm getting better at the downshift timing lately though.
ECU - almost always start with Traction Control around 10 or 11%. I'm getting better on the throttle control, so starting to increase this a bit. Depending on the car, I find that keeping this to a lower number (even 8%) can make a big difference to how long your rear tires can last (Porsche GT3 especially)
ABS - I don't really mess with too much.
Diff settings are still a bit of a black box for me. Right or wrong, I tend to set clutches 4, Preload about 100Nm, Power 50-60, Coast 40-45. I find this gives me a pretty decent balance overall, at least as far as I can tell. I might lower the Power a bit if I find that I'm pushing to the outside when I'm exiting a corners on the gas.


Ready to learn something.

Nice read. Thanks for putting it on euhhh “paper” bits&bytes.
Click click Bookmarked this thread..

Haiden
20-08-2018, 20:30
Haiden, sorry but I can't really tell you much on that. Although I do enjoy Norschleife, I don't think I have enough knowledge to know if they make a difference. Or, said differently, I'm not consistent enough there to really tell. In general I just find the hards a bit more slippy on braking or cornering, so I just default to the softs unless the conditions clearly seem to favour the hards. Problem is that I have yet to really find a race where choosing the hards really paid off.... too often I end up dropping back, and then in the last laps I'm not really gaining enough on the leaders to make a difference. I'm usually on circuits and haven't really gotten into longer races so I might not have the right experience to tell.

But for the brake balance I really think this is important. When you get it back further, I find I can brake harder and slow the car much faster. Less lock ups and you can actually control the car more when steering into the corner on the brakes. If anything it just gives more confidence and feeling like you are in control.

The only tracks I've noticed any difference are Nords and Barcelona. The latter is just because I tend to have issues with the left running hot at Barcelona. Happens in just about all sims, and I've noticed it's a RL issue with that track too. In AC, Medium compound is a good option, but with PCars, there's only Hard and Soft. It depends on the race length and weather, then as to which compound I choose. Nords is the one I'm not sure about. Hard to test lap times on that track.

Also, I find that although the Hards are a bit slipperier, they get much better after they warmed up. Unfortunately, they can take 3-4 laps to warm up, depending on the track. That's more than enough time for an insurmountable gap to develop, if the race isn't long enough.



Do you mean rough as in surface abrasiveness? If so, I'm pretty sure that one of the mods commented one time that all tracks have the same roughness with respect to things like tire deg.

Not sure what you mean. Yes, I'm talking about surface, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing, because I don't see how tracks like Nords and Silverstone could possibly have the same roughness. What I was referring/asking was whether or not rough, bumpy tracks like Nords can cause more deformation in soft tires, to the point where the contact patch is diminished or disrupted. Or is the concern on tracks like just about the rough surface beating the hell out of the tires, and Hards are the better choice because the Softs don't last as long.

Schnizz58
20-08-2018, 20:56
Not sure what you mean. Yes, I'm talking about surface, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing, because I don't see how tracks like Nords and Silverstone could possibly have the same roughness. What I was referring/asking was whether or not rough, bumpy tracks like Nords can cause more deformation in soft tires, to the point where the contact patch is diminished or disrupted. Or is the concern on tracks like just about the rough surface beating the hell out of the tires, and Hards are the better choice because the Softs don't last as long.
What I'm talking about is the texture of the asphalt itself. Some tracks are smooth, some are rougher and therefore cause more tire deg. But I think you're talking about something other than that so it's a moot point.

If I understand correctly, you're talking about how bumpy a track is and for sure Nords is about as bumpy as they come.

Mad Al
20-08-2018, 21:35
I managed to match my time with a mostly default setup last night. Just air pressure and no bump stops. I just hate bump stops. Now if I can get into the 1:30s ill be happy.

Just to be really annoying.. I had another go and got into the 30s with the gamepad and default setup (just turned off SC) ;)

Haiden
20-08-2018, 21:51
What I'm talking about is the texture of the asphalt itself. Some tracks are smooth, some are rougher and therefore cause more tire deg. But I think you're talking about something other than that so it's a moot point.

If I understand correctly, you're talking about how bumpy a track is and for sure Nords is about as bumpy as they come.

Yes. That's what I meant. I thought surface texture was what you were referring to, but wasn't completely sure.

That's the reason I run Hard compound on Nords. I think it performs better once the tires is warm. Might just be in my head, though. Or maybe it's because the Soft degrade faster, and I'm only remembering how they performed closer to the end of the race.

morpwr
20-08-2018, 22:18
Just to be really annoying.. I had another go and got into the 30s with the gamepad and default setup (just turned off SC) ;)

Just the fact you can do that with a controller and a wheel sucks.lol But ill get there.

hkraft300
21-08-2018, 08:25
The only tracks I've noticed any difference are Nords and Barcelona. The latter is just because I tend to have issues with the left running hot at Barcelona. Happens in just about all sims, and I've noticed it's a RL issue with that track too. In AC, Medium compound is a good option, but with PCars, there's only Hard and Soft. It depends on the race length and weather, then as to which compound I choose. Nords is the one I'm not sure about. Hard to test lap times on that track.

Also, I find that although the Hards are a bit slipperier, they get much better after they warmed up. Unfortunately, they can take 3-4 laps to warm up, depending on the track. That's more than enough time for an insurmountable gap to develop, if the race isn't long enough.

Not sure what you mean. Yes, I'm talking about surface, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing, because I don't see how tracks like Nords and Silverstone could possibly have the same roughness. What I was referring/asking was whether or not rough, bumpy tracks like Nords can cause more deformation in soft tires, to the point where the contact patch is diminished or disrupted. Or is the concern on tracks like just about the rough surface beating the hell out of the tires, and Hards are the better choice because the Softs don't last as long.

Nords also has twisty mid-speed sections where the tires are highly loaded turn after turn with no respite until the next straight stretch. This can easily heat the soft tires as fast as you really quick guys drive.
Even if it was smooth tarmac it's still heavily loaded and that might be why the hard are necessary.