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View Full Version : Hey SMS... tell us about your StarVR partnership!



Myrdo
06-09-2018, 16:39
(Update - Sept 10): in another thread forum member Flashgod posted about a 'starvrsettings.xml' in the game directory following patch 7! Folks at SMS, can you give us any tidbit of info?? Even a 'hey, we're working on implementing some new features' or something? A nod nod, wink wink?

So I've been pretty preoccupied with devouring every StarVR One article & video for the last few weeks since it has been announced at SIGGRAPH 2018. Even going so far as to study youtube videos in other languages that I don't understand (no subtitles available either), hoping to visually glean more info out of a new slide, or a different angle on the hardware connections, etc. Just can't get enough.

Disclaimer: I basically exclusively play PCars 2, in VR, in the little free time I do have. I've spent a ton of money investing in high end racing peripherals, 80/20 rig, motion chair with high speed linear actuators, HTC vive, etc, etc. I realize this is not everyone's cup of tea. I also follow every little VR rumor & development in the hopes of seeing what is coming next and how soon, that will hopefully move beyond the limitations of 1st gen VR and really smash down the doors to awesome.

I can't post links as I rarely post (so cut/paste into your browser if you want to see for yourself). I do a lot of forum reading though. So cut/paste, or a moderator, please help me out!

Main product website: starvr.com/products/
Product overview video: youtube.com/watch?v=KtlFJ3aV8Os

I frankly can't believe that a headset is imminent to release that takes all the aspects of VR that are important to me, and leaps them forward this far. I figured we were still 2 years minimum away. This has essentially full human field-of-view, eyetracking (enabling foveated rendering to be implemented), top end custom AMOLED screens with full RGB (tackling screendoor effect plus deep rich colors), dual input VR SLI mode (i.e. one cable per screen, enables possibility of one GPU per eye - please don't comment and complain about regular SLI not working with or without VR, or the gains of regular SLI being poor and game dependent... this is a new implementation, and I am excited to hear more concrete details. Especially if this will be a hardware-level feature that will simply work independent of game, game engine, etc.)

Yes, it will be expensive (main audience is enterprise/commercial, but they will not restrict consumers from purchasing). With any luck I can still scrounge together the dough to buy it. Yes, it will require high-end hardware (that has not stopped me yet). Don't get caught up in those details - I am posting this in the hopes SMS will shed some light on their partnership with StarVR.

It could have massive implications on VR sim racing. More importantly, potential for massive implications in the near term, and from what I've seen, potentially even integration into Project Cars 2 that could be a game changer compared to the options we have now for high VR performance in PC2.

Here's what I'm referring to:


(1) A StarVR 'partners' graphic listing Slightly Mad Studios. Note the other partners, only a few other game developers listed... mainly business software tools (ie. 3D rendering tools, etc).


- Source: starvr.com/
(scroll to almost the bottom to see the partners graphic).


(2) The product page for StarVR One. Project Cars 2 is the showcase for why a wide FOV headset is simply on another level.


- Source: starvr.com/products/


- Scroll down about 30% of the page. Click on the 'Others' button and 'StarVR' button to see the representation of FOV in the Vive/Rift vs FOV in the StarVR One. I personally cannot wait for wide FOV, can't wait for the sense of speed it will bring from peripheral vision scenery whipping by! I miss that in today's 110 degree Vive field of view.


(3) Interview with StarVR from VoodooDE at IFA 2018 in Berlin.


(a) StarVR rep discusses foveated rendering, and how in the first demo they gave to the interviewer (the lab), they didn't leverage foveated rendering as it was utilizing the standard OpenVR driver. However, the next demo (a Porsche/ZeroLight collaboration), foveated rendering was in use through their partners using their StarVR SDK API.



- To quote: "Here, what we are going to show you, is what all of our partners and our software partners are doing, is building applications that are natively supporting the StarVR headset". (remember SMS listed as a partner?!)
- Source (YouTube, timestamp 6min 12sec): youtu.be/cw4DCgSOuj0?t=6m12s



(b) StarVR rep discusses dual USB-C display cables, 'dual-input VR SLI mode', working with Nvidia on a new SLI mode different from traditional SLI, one GPU per eye, etc.



- Source (YouTube, timestamp 6min 54sec): youtu.be/cw4DCgSOuj0?t=6m54s

That's alot of info, but I wanted to show it's not just random rumors.

So c'mon SMS, give us something to drool over!!

- Are you working to implement some or all of the features of the StarVR into PC2, or is this exclusively looking forward to PC3?

- Integrating foveated rendering into PC2 seems like a serious long-shot. Proprietary engine, already released game... but one can dream. I've seen mention of up to 50% less GPU load using this technique... All of a sudden my 1080ti could handle some seriously high fidelty display settings in VR... wow.

- Dual-input VR SLI seems like a more likely fit... PC2 pushes my 1080ti beyond its limits, and we need the performance boost. Imagine doubling performance with one gpu per eye, leveraging the falling prices of 10 series nVidia gpu's as the 20 series rolls out. I'd be in!

John Hargreaves
06-09-2018, 16:52
That's some impressive detective work there old boy :yes: I guess all these kind of things go on behind closed doors until they are ready to release the info, but you have certainly picked up some good clues there. Thanks for posting this, I found it an interesting read.

Mad Al
06-09-2018, 18:15
There may be a tie to ioTech, which looks like SMS branching into high end simulation for professional use using VR


and yes I noticed lots of use of PC2 for StarVR's demos

Javaniceday
06-09-2018, 19:16
Noting the foveated rendering capability, will the current batch of GPUs be able to power this VR headset? Or do you think we'll need to wait for post RTX GPUs? (currently I have a 1070 with a rift)

bporion
06-09-2018, 20:23
well kept us up to date it is for sure the future of vr !

BigDad
07-09-2018, 09:23
Well I have all my RTX money that I won't be spending so maybe another 1080Ti and a new StarVR for me ;)

morpwr
07-09-2018, 11:04
I want one.:D

Invincible
07-09-2018, 11:21
I want one.:D

You're not the only one :p

Myrdo
11-09-2018, 02:08
Noting the foveated rendering capability, will the current batch of GPUs be able to power this VR headset? Or do you think we'll need to wait for post RTX GPUs? (currently I have a 1070 with a rift)

I'd say anyone's guess really... I think a number of things would have to fall into place though. I'd think we'd need the Madness Engine to be updated to implement eyetracking and foveated rendering, which I'd imagine is no small feat. Resolution is higher in the StarVR (or at least the "equivalent" resolution I've seen quoted.. they say its hard to make apples to apples comparisons between current gen pentile displays and their full-stripe RGB panels...), and Pcars 2 seems to push Pascal cards beyond their limit already... But hey, I'd be just as stoked as you if it does happen and works well with a 1070!

Qxs
11-09-2018, 04:09
Unless they are doubling the pixel density, I don't see any point to pursuing more VR for simracing...
I bought the Oculus Rift last year and indeed the immersion is superior to triple screen, but the resolution (pixel density) was like going back to 640x480 60hz CRT...
Is that what is happening, much better picture quality, and if so, how is that being done with Nvidia not releasing a card that will do it?

morpwr
11-09-2018, 10:47
Unless they are doubling the pixel density, I don't see any point to pursuing more VR for simracing...
I bought the Oculus Rift last year and indeed the immersion is superior to triple screen, but the resolution (pixel density) was like going back to 640x480 60hz CRT...
Is that what is happening, much better picture quality, and if so, how is that being done with Nvidia not releasing a card that will do it?

If im not mistaken it has to use sli. But it looked like its a proprietary thing not an in game one from what I got. But I could be wrong.

Myrdo
11-09-2018, 15:56
If im not mistaken it has to use sli. But it looked like its a proprietary thing not an in game one from what I got. But I could be wrong.

That's not quite what I took away. It has two USB-C cables from the headset (one per display). The cables connected to the headset are 90cm long (for connecting to a backpack PC for example), and they also supply 2 x 5m type-c extension cables (for going back to a stationary PC). To connect to the PC, there is an optional adapter box, accepting the 2 x USB-C cables as inputs, and outputting up to 2 x display port, and 2 x USB. From the demoing they did at IFA Berlin, apparently one demo was using a single GPU (the Lab demo, and I assume just using one of the displayport outputs from the adapter box), and the second demo (the Porsche/ZeroLight collaboration), was using foveated rendering and dual-input (ie 2 GPU) SLI mode.

Either way, I can't wait to hear what is planned for PCars 2.

Urban Chaos 2.0
29-11-2018, 18:08
Project CARS Pro powers StarVR for the new Porsche 911 Carrera S debut at The LA Autoshow

262548

Slightly Mad Studios, in collaboration with Porsche, is proud to present an exclusive experience built on the Project CARS Pro platform which will be officially launched in 2019. The “Porsche 911 VR-Racing Experience” will be on display at the 2018 Los Angeles Auto Show.

262549

This bespoke Porsche experience was created by Slightly Mad Studios in close collaboration with Porsche and StarVR to deliver truly unique, intense, and unrivaled levels of immersion featuring the all-new Porsche 911 Carrera S.

262550

“Using Project CARS Pro in the unveiling experience of the new Porsche 911 Carrera S is very special for us,” said Stephen Viljoen, Chief Commercial Officer at Slightly Mad Studios. “We’re developing the professional version of Project CARS for the automotive world to deliver a unique and distinct product with the ability to create unparalleled client experiences, and working with Porsche on this project, utilizing our professional simulation product before its official debut in 2019, is very exciting!”

262551

bporion
29-11-2018, 20:25
street cars ! :(

Urban Chaos 2.0
29-11-2018, 20:34
Yes, street cars. That's what many of us want. Certainly, most people want more road cars in this sim. And for good reason.

Also: This is just a special event showcasing the new Porche Carrera S on the new PCPro platform. I do hope that soon it drops into PC2 as free DLC.

davekojo
29-11-2018, 21:41
For everyone who's interested this isn't part of the game. Its SMS licencing/developing for manufactures to sell/advertise. Think like the RFactor Pro engine. There's an instagram post by Pcars specifically stating that this demo/tech is B2B only.

I'm guessing its taking what they did with the Mclaren Vesario partnership further. It could also mean that funds for PCars 3 will be coming in via manufacturers or never coming because they are too busy with the manufacturer platform.

bporion
29-11-2018, 21:47
Yes, street cars. That's what many of us want. Certainly, most people want more road cars in this sim. And for good reason.

Also: This is just a special event showcasing the new Porche Carrera S on the new PCPro platform. I do hope that soon it drops into PC2 as free DLC.

its a racing sim not a driving sim . anyway to each his own .

RacingAtHome
29-11-2018, 22:52
its a racing sim not a driving sim . anyway to each his own .

To race, first you must drive your own car.


For everyone who's interested this isn't part of the game. Its SMS licencing/developing for manufactures to sell/advertise. Think like the RFactor Pro engine. There's an instagram post by Pcars specifically stating that this demo/tech is B2B only.

I'm guessing its taking what they did with the Mclaren Vesario partnership further. It could also mean that funds for PCars 3 will be coming in via manufacturers or never coming because they are too busy with the manufacturer platform.

I expected as much. Hopefully, it chucks some massive funds into SMS and PCARS3 giving us an even bigger bucketload of content. Including Suzuka.

beetes_juice
29-11-2018, 23:39
For everyone who's interested this isn't part of the game. Its SMS licencing/developing for manufactures to sell/advertise. Think like the RFactor Pro engine. There's an instagram post by Pcars specifically stating that this demo/tech is B2B only.

I'm guessing its taking what they did with the Mclaren Vesario partnership further. It could also mean that funds for PCars 3 will be coming in via manufacturers or never coming because they are too busy with the manufacturer platform.

From what I gather this is nothing like rfPro or acPro. This is more or less a "show off" for high-end car buyers. A show off of graphics and next-gen VR hardware. If anything I bet physics are toned down to support that absurd - yeah I want one - HMD.

Christiaan van Beilen
30-11-2018, 00:02
street cars ! :(

Who cares... I just hope Project CARS 2 will get patches still so that all these collaboration efforts trickle down to us in one form or another. The team always learns a lot during these times, so I am sure they will have refined a lot of things under the hood. :)

bporion
30-11-2018, 00:35
To race, first you must drive your own car.



I expected as much. Hopefully, it chucks some massive funds into SMS and PCARS3 giving us an even bigger bucketload of content. Including Suzuka.

well not really most racers start in karts and at that age you dont have your drivers license .

satco1066
30-11-2018, 10:40
From what I gather this is nothing like rfPro or acPro. This is more or less a "show off" for high-end car buyers. A show off of graphics and next-gen VR hardware. If anything I bet physics are toned down to support that absurd - yeah I want one - HMD.

USD 3200.- for developers ;)

BrunoB
30-11-2018, 15:44
I think there is something fishy going on behind the pCarsPro and StarVR announcement.
Hehe I would not dare to buy any available StarVR stocks :-)

https://www.roadtovr.com/report-acer-sell-disband-starvr-soon/
Report: Acer Could Sell or Disband StarVR Soon
Scott Hayden - Nov 29, 2018

StarVR Corporation, an Acer and Starbreeze partnership behind the wide field of view (FOV) VR headset StarVR One, could be on the ropes after its delisting from the Taipei stock exchange earlier this month.
Digitimes reports that Acer, a 63 percent majority stakeholder in the company, has given StarVR three months to turn profitable, citing an anonymous ‘market watcher’ source.

Another Digitimes source maintains that Acer is also actively looking to sell the company to firms based in China or Japan.
Sweden-based game company Starbreeze, which currently owns a 33 percent interest in StarVR, says in a recent announcement that stakeholders will meet next month “to decide whether StarVR Corporation should cease to be a public company.”

Christiaan van Beilen
30-11-2018, 21:22
I think there is something fishy going on behind the pCarsPro and StarVR announcement.
Hehe I would not dare to buy any available StarVR stocks :-)

Maybe Ian will buy the company and get into the hardware business to bring VR to new heights for us sim racers. ;)

Twinz
01-12-2018, 01:29
If someone would develop a one-card-per-eye API (and it was adopted by games) VR would have somewhere to go.

Right now, it doesn't look like there is enough GPU power available.

Christiaan van Beilen
01-12-2018, 03:34
If someone would develop a one-card-per-eye API (and it was adopted by games) VR would have somewhere to go.

Right now, it doesn't look like there is enough GPU power available.

I think you are better of getting a dual GPU card in that case. That way the timing between the output for both eyes can be synced internally on the card without much complexity.

I have been saying this for 10 years now but the industry is coming to a halt in terms of development. You could also say it has just about reached adulthood and it won't develop much anymore from here on out.
Most general gaming can be done on a 8-10 year old computer nowadays, albeit you shouldn't expect ultra settings anymore or a proper VR experience. This would have been unthinkable in the 90s and early 00s, as development was so fast that a PC was simply EOL within 3 years.

IT has become pretty dull in terms of hardware. Liquid cooling and subzero cooling were all things from the early 00s, as were most other things we have today, which is merely a refinement of what we used to have back then.

I mean... nobody takes apart an old freezer to cool their CPU anymore, or uses an old fashioned external aquarium pump in their water loop. :p

I am still wondering why I haven't seen ammonia being used as coolant these days. Works excellent in 12v caravan/trailer fridges. Vaporized ammonia subtracts heet from its surroundings as it condenses. ;)
It is a noiseless cooling solution and can last decades in a properly seal AIO solution. :)

RacingAtHome
01-12-2018, 10:42
well not really most racers start in karts and at that age you dont have your drivers license .

Car meaning vehicle...

You drive a kart. You need to know how to drive a kart before you can race it.

PostBox981
01-12-2018, 11:08
Right now, it doesn't look like there is enough GPU power available.

This is exactly where the new StarVR eyetracking tech comes into play. You get high density only in the area that your eyes focus on with all the rest around that you see but not focus on becomes calculated on a lower stage. I havenīt seen any figures yet but Iīd expect a fairly reduced calculation load. Or the other way round a highly improved resolution with current hardware.

BrunoB
01-12-2018, 13:06
This is exactly where the new StarVR eyetracking tech comes into play. You get high density only in the area that your eyes focus on with all the rest around that you see but not focus on becomes calculated on a lower stage. I havenīt seen any figures yet but Iīd expect a fairly reduced calculation load. Or the other way round a highly improved resolution with current hardware.
Exactly.:yes:
Foveated rendering with or without eye tracking will probably solve most of the GPU demanding problems targeting higher VR resolutions.

Thats also the reason my humorously meant comment on the status of StarVR is a bit ironic.
Because the StarVRs devs have obviously the right tecnical intentions - but have until now not been able to prove or show a useable economical model.

davekojo
01-12-2018, 22:33
Exactly.:yes:
Foveated rendering with or without eye tracking will probably solve most of the GPU demanding problems targeting higher VR resolutions.

Thats also the reason my humorously meant comment on the status of StarVR is a bit ironic.
Because the StarVRs devs have obviously the right tecnical intentions - but have until now not been able to prove or show a useable economical model.

I don't know the exact details of how they do the Foveated rendering, but would the eyetracking and conversion for rendering calculations put more strain on the CPU? You may just be moving the problem from one component to another. For those who can afford the compute it may be great. But it doesn't solve the whole price - performance issues of VR.

Twinz
02-12-2018, 02:57
I think we have more CPU headroom than GPU.

It would cost more money on the CPU side of course, but if they can shift some of the load to the CPU side, money might solve our current stalemate in VR. (Right now, no amount of money seems to he able to solve the GPU bottleneck blocking 4k VR)

isamu
02-12-2018, 05:20
There are so many uncertainties and unanswered questions regarding the StarVR One and their plans that it's driving me up the friggin' wall.

I have this headset on my mind almost 24/7! I'm infatuated with the idea of owning a badass headset like this one, to play PCars 2, AC, Iracing, etc. But the thing that's frustrating me the most is the silence from both StarVR and the developers. Yes, not all of us are going to buy a StarVR One, but SMS surely knows that *some* of us are willing to buy the headset just for PCars 2, so why not throw us a bone and tell us whether or not we're wasting our time dreaming of using this headset with the game? I'd even be willing to buy the pro version of the game if it means it will contain all the content of the normal version(career, online multiplayer, etc), but we haven't heard anything from SMS and the silence is deafening! If not that, then patch the regular version of PCars 2 with full support for the StarVR One, and charge us a fee for the "Upgraded" patch.

I hope Ian will read this thread and tell us *SOMETHING* about the StarVR One partnership.

satco1066
02-12-2018, 10:31
if you look into your documents\project cars 2 folder you'll find a "starvrsettings.xml" since patch 7.1. So maybe it's compatible since 2 months.

if you haven't heared anything, just roumors , jump off the whining train. This is normal while development.
e.g. Oculus announced a new product in early spring. Then we heared nothing , just only stupid rumors, and in end of september they introduced Oculus Quest.
Now we know, but didn't get any news ( news, not messages from stupid, ignorant analysts ) since then. Who cares?

Can i sleep like a baby every night.
YES I CAN. As it does not matter.
Slow down your life mate :p

BrunoB
02-12-2018, 12:36
I don't know the exact details of how they do the Foveated rendering, but would the eyetracking and conversion for rendering calculations put more strain on the CPU? You may just be moving the problem from one component to another. For those who can afford the compute it may be great. But it doesn't solve the whole price - performance issues of VR.
Eye tracking have been used for several years in games without severe impact on CPU/GPU usage.
My personal guess is that a competent used Foveated Rendering will lower the mentioned calculation impact with about 200-300%(=2x-3x).
Hehe thats probably also the reason biological evolution have decided only to "render" a very tiny part of the retina sharp and let the rest of the peripheral vision stay unsharp.
Because that is a much more economical use of brain power :-)

Check this older nVidia article out about different types of foveated rendering.
https://www.roadtovr.com/nvidia-perceptually-based-foveated-rendering-research/

PostBox981
02-12-2018, 17:15
If eye tracking was more costy than rendering the complete high res display then I donīt think any company in the world would put all their time and money on developing it.

Invincible
03-12-2018, 08:04
If eye tracking was more costy than rendering the complete high res display then I donīt think any company in the world would put all their time and money on developing it.

This. If it would cost more rendering power than rendering the whole display, it would contradict the point of eyetracking completely.

isamu
03-12-2018, 16:24
https://uploadvr.com/starbreeze-loses-ceo-files-reconstruction/

:concern::(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Urban Chaos 2.0
03-12-2018, 18:59
https://uploadvr.com/starbreeze-loses-ceo-files-reconstruction/

:concern::(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Damn. The timing of such a thing is almost comical. How did this happen?

BrunoB
04-12-2018, 11:18
Maybe Ian will buy the company and get into the hardware business to bring VR to new heights for us sim racers. ;)
:p:p:p:p

satco1066
04-12-2018, 12:14
if 5000 forum users preorder that device, he is in ;)