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Atak Kat
07-11-2018, 17:09
So, I admit, I've been away from PC2 for a while. Been enjoying AC a lot these days, also GTS to be honest.
But I was back on PC2 last weekend and I immediately realized something I didn't really notice before.

For whatever reason, I find now (after so much time in the other sims), that the cars I'm driving (mostly GT3... but not only) seem to have this strange behaviour where they feel like they are turning into the corner too much, right at mid-corner/apex.

It's strange. I'm ok on turn in, and exit. I'm able to recognize the under/over steer on entry or exit, and adjust my setup or driving to deal with it.

But I really find in PC2, that there's some sort of 'dive' to the inside at mid corner that catches me off guard all the time. I think I'm on a good entry line, and then all of a sudden I'm diving to the inside too fast and I need to counter steer to correct and continue through the corner.

I never really noticed it before, but after lots of time in the other sims, it's almost the main thing I notice now in PC2.

Any ideas or suggestions what to check in my setups for this? Is it something that other people notice about PC2 compared to other sims?

Thanks for your comments.

Twinz
07-11-2018, 17:31
The only time I experience something like this is when I clip the inside of a corner and "catch" what feels like sand in my wheel's FFB. -not like parent that has been light6 dusted with sand, but like soft sand on the side of the road or a sandbox where your foot would sink into it a bit if walked through it.

Otherwise cars generally behave as expected for me. (And the pull from hitting a small sand trap with a tire , kind of makes sense too)

davekojo
08-11-2018, 03:12
Try stiffening the front ARB

Sankyo
08-11-2018, 07:44
So, I admit, I've been away from PC2 for a while. Been enjoying AC a lot these days, also GTS to be honest.
But I was back on PC2 last weekend and I immediately realized something I didn't really notice before.

For whatever reason, I find now (after so much time in the other sims), that the cars I'm driving (mostly GT3... but not only) seem to have this strange behaviour where they feel like they are turning into the corner too much, right at mid-corner/apex.

It's strange. I'm ok on turn in, and exit. I'm able to recognize the under/over steer on entry or exit, and adjust my setup or driving to deal with it.

But I really find in PC2, that there's some sort of 'dive' to the inside at mid corner that catches me off guard all the time. I think I'm on a good entry line, and then all of a sudden I'm diving to the inside too fast and I need to counter steer to correct and continue through the corner.

I never really noticed it before, but after lots of time in the other sims, it's almost the main thing I notice now in PC2.

Any ideas or suggestions what to check in my setups for this? Is it something that other people notice about PC2 compared to other sims?

Thanks for your comments.

What set-up are you using?

Voodoochild
08-11-2018, 10:53
unless it's due to your force feedback clipping, that behaviour can depend from one or a combination of the following:

- front anti roll bar too soft
- coast ramp angle too high (if it happens off the throttle)
- power ramp angle too high (if it happens on the throttle. High pramp angle means a locked diff, which can cause excessive internal wheel slip which causes snap oversteers like you described)

Bealdor
08-11-2018, 10:58
- power ramp angle too high (if it happens on the throttle. High pramp angle means a locked diff, which can cause excessive internal wheel slip which causes snap oversteers like you described)

No.
High power ramp angle means LOW locking effect, which will cause the inner wheel to spin freely and reduce torque on the outside wheel. This will not cause snap oversteer.

"Snap oversteer" happens with low power ramp angles which are causing a high locking effect.
This locking effect PREVENTS your inside wheel from spinning and distributes more torque to the outside wheel.

Voodoochild
08-11-2018, 14:25
"Snap oversteer" happens with low power ramp angles which are causing a high locking effect.
This locking effect PREVENTS your inside wheel from spinning and distributes more torque to the outside wheel.

aren't these 2 sentences contradicting one eachother?

In the first you say that snap oversteer is induced by high locking effect, in the second you say that locking effect prevents your inside wheel from spinning excessively (which is what makes the car spin in the hairpins as soon as you go on the throttle)

I think we're giving the same advice but we need to agree on the meaning on "snap oversteer" and probably i need to review my definition of open and locked diff:
- locked diff: both wheels receive the same amount of torque
- open diff: the outside wheel receives more torque than the inside wheel
Is that correct?

and then:
- snap oversteer: rear loses grip suddenly, front seems to "dive" into the corner and you usually end up facing backwards in a cloud of smoke. Happens usually on corner apexes and is mitigated by lower power ramp angles
- power oversteer: rear loses grip more gradually, rotation of the car is slower and you can more easily save it. Happens usually on corner exits and is mitigated by higher power ramp angles
Is that correct?

Bealdor
08-11-2018, 14:38
Equal torque distribution is only achieved with an open diff.
With zero lock the inside wheel can spin freely and the torque on the outside wheel is limited by what the inside one can handle.

High locking effect means the inside wheel can't spin freely and when it wants to, more torque is distributed to the outside wheel, overloading it and causing the rear to spin out under hard acceleration.

Voodoochild
08-11-2018, 14:48
ok then i got my definitions of open and locked diff the wrong way around, but not the effect of higher or lower power ramp on the car's behaviour

Mahjik
08-11-2018, 14:55
But I really find in PC2, that there's some sort of 'dive' to the inside at mid corner that catches me off guard all the time. I think I'm on a good entry line, and then all of a sudden I'm diving to the inside too fast and I need to counter steer to correct and continue through the corner.


One thing that PC2 does very well which most current titles don't support is scrubbing. What I mean is that there is a technique many real life drivers use where they come into a corner a little hot, allow the car to scrub off speed via friction of the tires, and then when the car is at the proper speed it will grip and settle into the corner. A lot of sims don't really have this scrubbing effect and it was one of the things the SMS physics team worked hard on based on the feedback from their racing drivers. This is likely what you are experiencing.

Note, this can also cause some snap oversteer. If the car begins to understeer, depending on the steering angle you have eventually the car will scrub off enough speed that the front tires will grip. If you have a lot of steering already in the front wheels, when they grip it will suddenly grab that direction which can throw the rear around quickly.

Atak Kat
08-11-2018, 18:13
Great comments and suggestions. Thanks to all of you.

Some short comments.
- Although I tend to keep the front ARB pretty soft, I did think of that, and went back to default setups. Found the same general behaviour.
- Will try some of the suggestions regarding diff and other items.
- I don't think it's inside curb related. I find the same sort of behaviour even when I am not touching the curbs.
- But the description by Twinz is quite accurate. A bit like running the inside tires through a patch of soft sand and what that might be like. It's momentary, but then goes away.
- I don't think its really snap oversteer. The rear is not coming out. It's just that the car feels like it's turning much faster to the inside than it initially was on the corner entry. And this requires some quick steering correction before I end up too far inside.

Interesting comment by Mahjik, thanks. No idea if that's what I'm finding. Will run some more laps and pay a bit more attention to this.

I will keep experimenting, but what is interesting to me is that I notice this very clearly now, whereas before I did not. And that alone is a really great reason to spend time also in other sims. Because clearly I'm able to sense something now, that previously I didn't even realize. And I was more wondering if others had the same observation.

Bealdor
08-11-2018, 19:48
Are you already applying throttle when this occurs?
If yes, try increasing your preload.

hkraft300
09-11-2018, 06:29
Have you checked your rear vs front tire temp? Since the last patch or 2 I've recently noticed with my old setups the rear tires are ~10°c higher than front which on soft tires causes oversteer problems when they're cooked. Having to change my setups a lot to mitigate the problem ie softer rear springs and stiffer front. Stiffer front arb hasn't done enough.

bradleyland
09-11-2018, 15:35
One thing that PC2 does very well which most current titles don't support is scrubbing. What I mean is that there is a technique many real life drivers use where they come into a corner a little hot, allow the car to scrub off speed via friction of the tires, and then when the car is at the proper speed it will grip and settle into the corner. A lot of sims don't really have this scrubbing effect and it was one of the things the SMS physics team worked hard on based on the feedback from their racing drivers. This is likely what you are experiencing.

Note, this can also cause some snap oversteer. If the car begins to understeer, depending on the steering angle you have eventually the car will scrub off enough speed that the front tires will grip. If you have a lot of steering already in the front wheels, when they grip it will suddenly grab that direction which can throw the rear around quickly.

I'd second this ^^

Most titles have tires regain traction in a way that is too linear. In pCARS 2, the tires have very little grip when sliding and then will suddenly catch. I've never driven on slicks, but I have almost driven a real car (on road tires) off due to understeer a handful of times. The sensation when the tires regain grip will startle the hell out of you. It's borderline violent, and feels a bit like you hit something soft that deflected the car in the direction of the steering angle.

DECATUR PLAYA
10-11-2018, 06:10
So, I admit, I've been away from PC2 for a while. Been enjoying AC a lot these days, also GTS to be honest.
But I was back on PC2 last weekend and I immediately realized something I didn't really notice before.

For whatever reason, I find now (after so much time in the other sims), that the cars I'm driving (mostly GT3... but not only) seem to have this strange behaviour where they feel like they are turning into the corner too much, right at mid-corner/apex.

It's strange. I'm ok on turn in, and exit. I'm able to recognize the under/over steer on entry or exit, and adjust my setup or driving to deal with it.

But I really find in PC2, that there's some sort of 'dive' to the inside at mid corner that catches me off guard all the time. I think I'm on a good entry line, and then all of a sudden I'm diving to the inside too fast and I need to counter steer to correct and continue through the corner.

I never really noticed it before, but after lots of time in the other sims, it's almost the main thing I notice now in PC2.

Any ideas or suggestions what to check in my setups for this? Is it something that other people notice about PC2 compared to other sims?

Thanks for your comments.

Raise your preload in 50 point increments and see if the feeling goes away.

CastrolGT
11-11-2018, 12:44
Equal torque distribution is only achieved with an open diff.
With zero lock the inside wheel can spin freely and the torque on the outside wheel is limited by what the inside one can handle.

High locking effect means the inside wheel can't spin freely and when it wants to, more torque is distributed to the outside wheel, overloading it and causing the rear to spin out under hard acceleration.

uuuhhh… isn't that the other way around? I mean, open diff = both wheels free to spin but when a wheel has less weight on it, more torque is by default applied to this wheel(the inside one in the case of a turn) and locked diff is both wheels are forced to spin at the same speed whatsoever.

or maybe that's what you said, but on a different manner

Atak Kat
11-11-2018, 15:57
Thanks Magjik and Bradleyland. I think that's the thing I am finding. Lots of great set up suggestions as well from many others. Appreciated. It's an interesting thing and I'm a bit unsure if I like it or not..... Will keep experimenting but personally I'm torn betwečn what may be more accurate vs what i get the most enjoyment from.
Part of it might also be ffb. Found some appreciation in the Jack spade settings as well.....

See you all out there. Enjoy. Thanks.

Bealdor
11-11-2018, 16:34
uuuhhh… isn't that the other way around? I mean, open diff = both wheels free to spin but when a wheel has less weight on it, more torque is by default applied to this wheel(the inside one in the case of a turn) and locked diff is both wheels are forced to spin at the same speed whatsoever.

or maybe that's what you said, but on a different manner

Same rotational speed does not equal same amount of torque.

When both wheels can spin independently, the torque is equal on both.
For example, when you lift off one of the wheels from the ground it will basically receive 0 torque (only a very small amount is needed to spin it) and as a result the torque on the outside wheel is almost 0 too.

Now when you lock both wheels together and lift one off from the ground all the torque is transferred to the one that's still in contact with the road.
So while they're rotating at the same speed, they do not receive the same amount of torque.

Mahjik
11-11-2018, 17:03
Thanks Magjik and Bradleyland. I think that's the thing I am finding. Lots of great set up suggestions as well from many others. Appreciated. It's an interesting thing and I'm a bit unsure if I like it or not..... Will keep experimenting but personally I'm torn betwečn what may be more accurate vs what i get the most enjoyment from.
Part of it might also be ffb. Found some appreciation in the Jack spade settings as well.....

See you all out there. Enjoy. Thanks.

You can try to stiffen the front ARB to help reduce the after effects until you get used to it. Then start dialing back down the front ARB.

Atak Kat
19-01-2019, 05:07
Hello again to all.
This little *thing* became really annoying to me and I simply could not make any corner without it really bothering me. Became a bit fixated on it, and I simply stopped enjoying the game because I became over-sensitive to this little behaviour. Shelved the game for quite a while, but recently decided to try again (even fresh install...)

I have found, right-or-wrong, that a very small adjustment to the steering linearlty/sensitivity has helped quite a lot. Normally it's set at 50, and I found that adjusting it to 47 or 48 makes a big difference to minimize this behaviour. I tried both PS4 and PC and found that it really helped a lot. (using T300RS).

Perhaps I'm oversensitive. Unfortunately it does not show in my lap times. Hope it might help someone else in case they have a similar frustration.

blinkngone
19-01-2019, 09:31
Hi!:D So is it enough that you can play again? Are you back?

Kryptic seems to have adjusted to his PC. He has a few TT runs now. Are you still driving the Porsche? JTB has many TT runs, the PS4 league guys like his setups.

Atak Kat
19-01-2019, 16:29
Hello Mr.Blink...

Ive been dabbling with PC2 on both pc and ps4. Today found some great online race lobbies with fair racers. Kinda given up on the Porsche.... the way the ffb and behaviour of the car is now... I just can't get on with it anymore. Maybe time to dig it out and try again! Problem is that in PC2 my lap times are pretty sad these days... probably a sign that I'm average, at best. So be it. Still having fun.

But truth be told, I'm enjoying R3E, ACC, AC, and GTS a lot as well. Even a bit of FM7 <gasp>... I would honestly say I don't have a go-to game right now. Enjoying many of them, and the differences they bring. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks for your kind comments and questions.

blinkngone
19-01-2019, 16:32
OK, games are all about fun, all of them.:)

blinkngone
19-01-2019, 16:49
Yeah the FFB is a challenge, no larger topic in the Forums with 3 Stickies.
What I did recently. Accidently realized I had somehow entered the wrong Fanatec wheel base, version 2 instead of 2.5.:) Well this meant I had to redo all my FFB settings. I went to the Tri-Oval to see if I could use my old setups, just so I could evaluate only the car and not my driving, islolate just the FFB. Well none of my old setups worked, all needed adjusting. I was able to improve a couple of GT3s with some tuning, set some WRs, biggest improvement was with the Audi R8 LMS, over 0.120 seconds. With Vintage cars I had some cars I have broken, the AM DBR, can't get it to work. Others to get better I had to do some strange things like run my caster at 0.0? Then I found a guy whose setup seemed to be perfect for my FFB, I just made a run and passed him by a bit, sorry, not on purpose just testing things out. That's why some people have spreadsheets and adjust for car/track. It makes a difference. I am not that good so I just try and get a compromise where I am ok with most cars/tracks, realizing I am not going to be my best possible, just good enough to let me run.

Atak Kat
19-01-2019, 17:48
Agree. i bought the pc2 tuner app from zeretall today. will see what i can discover.... all good fun!

Sankyo
21-01-2019, 07:59
Hello again to all.
This little *thing* became really annoying to me and I simply could not make any corner without it really bothering me. Became a bit fixated on it, and I simply stopped enjoying the game because I became over-sensitive to this little behaviour. Shelved the game for quite a while, but recently decided to try again (even fresh install...)

I have found, right-or-wrong, that a very small adjustment to the steering linearlty/sensitivity has helped quite a lot. Normally it's set at 50, and I found that adjusting it to 47 or 48 makes a big difference to minimize this behaviour. I tried both PS4 and PC and found that it really helped a lot. (using T300RS).

Perhaps I'm oversensitive. Unfortunately it does not show in my lap times. Hope it might help someone else in case they have a similar frustration.
Does steering linearity/sensitivity apply to wheel? I thought it only applied to controllers.

hkraft300
21-01-2019, 08:32
Does steering linearity/sensitivity apply to wheel? I thought it only applied to controllers.

I'm sure it does. Although I run at 50 and adjust steering ratio to suit. Hard to say if you'd really notice the difference in linearity.
Does it help with the deadzone, messing with the sensitivity?
Because steering ratio adjustments affect ffb in my mind.

Atak Kat
21-01-2019, 10:22
Hard to say if you'd really notice the difference in linearity.
Does it help with the deadzone, messing with the sensitivity?
Because steering ratio adjustments affect ffb in my mind.

Exactly what I thought.... how can an adjustment so small make a difference? But for me it seems to. Other points:
- it is beyond me, how I seem to be seeing this behaviour, while others don't have it, or are not sensitive to it. It's really annoying to me now (I don't comment what is/isn't realistic, because that's not the point. Just that I am seeing more and more what I prefer, or what I like).
- For a time, I actually thought maybe my wheel had some fault in the way it works at that particular range of the movement. But since I don't find the same behaviour in any other titles, I'm just not sure. I am still open to the possibility that there is some sort of fault in my wheel. Maybe simply the detail/way PC2 works (ie. tires, physics, behavours, etc) is much higher, and perhaps a hardware issue is coming through the game, where other titles don't have the complexity (accuracy?) and therefore it does not come through in the gameplay?
- But this small adjustment, minimizes the behaviour and for me, I can reasonably enjoy the game again without getting fixated and frustrated. I tried again putting it back to 50, and found the issue back again. So for sure this small adjustment makes a difference in my case.
- Interestingly, I did notice this weekend during some driving that I'm not really liking the deadzone. Seems a bit soft around center. Not sure if related to this change, or just a result of the fact that I keep going back and forth with the many titles and my base-of-reference is getting clouded.

All said, does anyone know if there is any sort of software that can analyze or assess if the sensors in the wheel are working properly on my T300? No idea how that would work, but maybe there's something out there that you can run it through some diagnostics or tests to find out?

blinkngone
21-01-2019, 10:45
:D:D
264021

hkraft300
21-01-2019, 10:48
Exactly what I thought.... how can an adjustment so small make a difference? But for me it seems to.

I might give it a crack.


:D:D
264021

That's living dangerously.

blinkngone
21-01-2019, 11:07
Yeah, you just need to do whatever you can to make the game possible for yourself. My computer doesn't meet minimum specifications, so this is how I cope.

Atak Kat
21-01-2019, 11:25
I might give it a crack.


Interested what you will find.
- I'm reasonably happy with steering ratio in the car setup. I used to make it quite a bit tighter (lower ratio numbers), but I've found now that I prefer most of the steering ratios quite similar to their default values. If I change it, it's usually pretty minor. I've just gotten used to driving with more steering input than I used to, I guess (likely just from playing other games/titles and not messing too much with the default settings).
- Important that this minor adjustment in the steering sensitivity is not really changing at all the way the cars/wheel turns, in general (like steering ratio). My steering input is still the same, generally, as if it was set at 50. I don't notice any real impact in corner entry, exit, etc.
- Where it is making some difference is at that mid-corner moment, where you're coming to the apex, and I constantly seem to find the car diving abruptly to the inside too much and I have to make a steering correction out of the corner to prevent myself from taking the curb/grass too much. It's really unexpected and this little behaviour is what I'm referring to. So that's why I'm wondering if there is just something not right with my wheel, maybe at that point in the steering rotation, it's sending incorrect or 'non-linear' information to the game? The minor adjustment to reduce the steering sensitivity seems to mostly make it go away and the car behaves much better (more predictable) mid-corner than it was previously.

eracerhead
21-01-2019, 13:19
Where it is making some difference is at that mid-corner moment, where you're coming to the apex, and I constantly seem to find the car diving abruptly to the inside too much and I have to make a steering correction out of the corner to prevent myself from taking the curb/grass too much..

I've suffered this same problem with two different wheels (Fanatec GT2 and CSW) in both PC1/2 and would be interested to know if it's solvable.

I tend to believe the points upthread about it being a result of too much initial understeer resulting in tire 'bite' as speeds come down. But at least with my FFB settings it's hard to detect that that's what's occurring.

hkraft300
21-01-2019, 13:35
.
- Where it is making some difference is at that mid-corner moment, where you're coming to the apex, and I constantly seem to find the car diving abruptly to the inside too much and I have to make a steering correction out of the corner to prevent myself from taking the curb/grass too much. It's really unexpected and this little behaviour is what I'm referring to.

This happens to me from rear tires lock at turn in. Either my bias is a click too far to the rear, or compression lock as I downshift just before turn in. The rear tires are already at the limit of grip, then I turn in and they let go, causing oversteer.
Default loose tune? Have you tried pushing the brake bias forward a few %?

Atak Kat
21-01-2019, 14:17
This happens to me from rear tires lock at turn in. Either my bias is a click too far to the rear, or compression lock as I downshift just before turn in. The rear tires are already at the limit of grip, then I turn in and they let go, causing oversteer.
Default loose tune? Have you tried pushing the brake bias forward a few %?

I don't think so. Been pretty careful to consider that, and I'm pretty sure it's not related. I don't think it's oversteer in the sense of the rear end coming out. It's much more like the front just has immediate and sudden grip that perhaps was not there before. But I don't really think I'm in an understeer situation before it happens (fronts I don't think are scrubbing so much... it doesn't really seem like the front of the car is losing grip when going into the corner.... I can usually pick-up when the car is understeering into the corner entry, but perhaps I'm not as observant as I think). So the 'jolt' at mid-corner is more abrupt and quite surprising. Perhaps it is as-designed.

Also, if it was either of these things, then I don't think the adjustment to the steering sensitivity would give me the improvement that I'm seeing?

Atak Kat
21-01-2019, 14:21
I've suffered this same problem with two different wheels (Fanatec GT2 and CSW) in both PC1/2 and would be interested to know if it's solvable.

I tend to believe the points upthread about it being a result of too much initial understeer resulting in tire 'bite' as speeds come down. But at least with my FFB settings it's hard to detect that that's what's occurring.

Seems like you know or understand the behaviour I'm finding.
As experiment, do you mind to just adjust your steering sensitivity (in game) to 47 or 48? Give it a try and let me know if you see a reduction in this 'behaviour'`
It seems just enough to help reduce this, but not so dramatic to cause overall issues with the steering otherwise.

eracerhead
21-01-2019, 19:19
OK; I'll try and find a corner that I'm experiencing that characteristic and we'll compare notes...