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View Full Version : You guys can't talk about realistic physics and drive the Megane TC w/ default setups



seladoor
07-11-2018, 18:37
Seriously... entered a TC lobby with forced default setup. Almost undriveable. Oversteer happens in an instant with no warned and you get literally NO feedback from the brakes.

Does anyone else experience this?

Urban Chaos 2.0
07-11-2018, 18:53
Here are a few easy questions for you (seriously):

What is the definition of oversteer?
What are the primary causative mechanical factors for that kind of behaviour, and under which circumstances can they be detected and mitigated by the driver?

Three very simple questions, which, if you can answer, you will understand why your post should not have been made.

AbeWoz
07-11-2018, 19:53
you also have to drive FWD cars very very differently than RWD cars.

cpcdem
07-11-2018, 21:15
The Megane TC is my favorite car of the game and because I am very comfortable now with it, when I am in a lobby that allows tuning, I try to make it more oversteery, not less :).

But if it's the first time you drive this or other FWD cars, it will be indeed a pain, as AbeWoz said, you need to drive them completely differently than RWD cars. Because FWDs have inherent understeer, they are designed so they get oversteer off throttle, which helps a lot turning them in. Like with the Clio, throttle to keep them in rails, off throttle to rotate them. They need you to put a lot of time on them to get used to the way they drive, but when they start making sense they are fantastic. Although I do know some people who can drive them fast, but still hate RWDs :)

Edit: Ah and of course you cannot push them at all while all tires are cold! Wait until you get some heat especially on the fronts, then start racing them.

MaximusN
08-11-2018, 14:26
The Megane TC is my favorite car of the game and because I am very comfortable now with it, when I am in a lobby that allows tuning, I try to make it more oversteery, not less :).

But if it's the first time you drive this or other FWD cars, it will be indeed a pain, as AbeWoz said, you need to drive them completely differently than RWD cars. Because FWDs have inherent understeer, they are designed so they get oversteer off throttle, which helps a lot turning them in. Like with the Clio, throttle to keep them in rails, off throttle to rotate them. They need you to put a lot of time on them to get used to the way they drive, but when they start making sense they are fantastic. Although I do know some people who can drive them fast, but still hate RWDs :)

Edit: Ah and of course you cannot push them at all while all tires are cold! Wait until you get some heat especially on the fronts, then start racing them.

I do pretty okay racing FWD's once I get into the backwards driving they need(my instinct is RWD, it's way more logical anyway). But man do I hate doing that. I'd prefer driving with an RWD with a controller(or knitting or doing the laundry) to be honest

cpcdem
08-11-2018, 14:51
I do pretty okay racing FWD's once I get into the backwards driving they need(my instinct is RWD, it's way more logical anyway). But man do I hate doing that. I'd prefer driving with an RWD with a controller(or knitting or doing the laundry) to be honest

I am so used now to driving FWDs, that I almost dislike most RWDs, they do not make sense to me the way they drive anymore :). Problem is 95% of the cars in the game are RWDs though, so I probably need to finally quit with the FWDs and get back with the RWD flock :).

Stewy32
08-11-2018, 15:58
-What was the track temperature?
-Which track was it?
-What were the weather conditions?
-Which tyres are we're on the car?
-Are you used to FWD cars?

TekNeil
08-11-2018, 16:17
Here are a few easy questions for you (seriously):

What is the definition of oversteer?
What are the primary causative mechanical factors for that kind of behaviour, and under which circumstances can they be detected and mitigated by the driver?

Three very simple questions, which, if you can answer, you will understand why your post should not have been made.

Bit of a silly presumption...
Even If he can answer all of those in fine mechanical detail, it doesn't mean the physics of the car in question are correct as far as accuracy. Much like the Clio is largely regarded as not the most accurate physics wise, as confirmed by those who've actually raced them.

cpcdem
08-11-2018, 16:26
Bit of a silly presumption...
Even If he can answer all of those in fine mechanical detail, it doesn't mean the physics of the car in question are correct as far as accuracy. Much like the Clio is largely regarded as not the most accurate physics wise, as confirmed by those who've actually raced them.

Link?

Bealdor
08-11-2018, 16:29
Bit of a silly presumption...
Even If he can answer all of those in fine mechanical detail, it doesn't mean the physics of the car in question are correct as far as accuracy. Much like the Clio is largely regarded as not the most accurate physics wise, as confirmed by those who've actually raced them.

One of the Clio Cup drivers (Nic Hamilton) was part of development and he loved it.
There was also a long discussion about this car over at GTP and why it's driving as it should.

TekNeil
08-11-2018, 16:29
I would if I could mate, but it's just from various random reading/watching videos over 'x' months without paying it too much attention. Nick Hamilton 'may' have been an obvious one.

Edit: I was pretty sure I'd come across Nick Hamilton later being quoted as mentioning the physics after his initial comments.

Zeratall
08-11-2018, 16:34
I am so used now to driving FWDs, that I almost dislike most RWDs, they do not make sense to me the way they drive anymore :). Problem is 95% of the cars in the game are RWDs though, so I probably need to finally quit with the FWDs and get back with the RWD flock :).

95% of the game is RWD, because FWD is considered the black sheep in high performance car manufacturing. Your giving the tires both jobs (acceleration, and steering). It's great for gaining traction for front engine mounted cars which is why you see them in a lot of road cars but not so good when your trying to operate at the limit and get around a track the quickest.

They are fun as hell to drive tho, getting too sideways? Plant the throttle, lol like Colin said, when in doubt, flat out.

Urban Chaos 2.0
08-11-2018, 16:58
Bit of a silly presumption...
Even If he can answer all of those in fine mechanical detail, it doesn't mean the physics of the car in question are correct as far as accuracy.

Nonsense. The OP's post in its entirety, expresses a lack of understanding of oversteer, and the reasons a front-wheel-drive cup car (set up they way it is by default, in the case of the Renault), oversteers the way it does when approaching corners incorrectly (as he surely is doing), while failing to manage the brake and throttle when it is necessary to use them. If he understood, even elementarily the affects of operation of such a car, he would not be complaining that it's too difficult to drive ;).


Bit of a silly presumption...
Much like the Clio is largely regarded as not the most accurate physics wise, as confirmed by those who've actually raced them.

Nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever to back up your assertions. In fact, there is much evidence to counteract it ;). See this thread, for example: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?57577-More-realistic-road-car-physics!/page14

E_Luckow
08-11-2018, 17:22
Unfortunately, regarding PCars, this kind of posts are very common... "I can't be fast in this car... for sure, the physics is broken" "I can't fly with this car, PCars is bugged".

"Someone, somewhere said Pcars sucks... I will not check it out... it must be true".

Sorry mates, since the first iteration of the sim it's the same story (BS, in fact) over and over and over. I do really admire the moderators around for their patience.

Urban Chaos 2.0
08-11-2018, 17:38
I came here to talk about driving, not a philosophy lesson. I don't understand like users such as yourself stand defiant with a cyber pickaxe guarding the holy grail that is PC2. Every single issue, piece of criticism or downright negative comments about the game are brushed aside as user idiocy, user problem or user is plain wrong.

Definition of oversteer: In my own words, WHEN A CAR STEERS MORE THAN DESIRED. It's not rocket science.

What are the primary causative mechanical factors for that kind of behaviour? It was the default setup. I don't bloody know

under which circumstances can they be detected They can be detected, specifically when the cars actually oversteer.

and mitigated by the driver? That's why I made this post.

Three very simple questions, which, if you can answer, you will understand why your post should not have been made. Cheers for the help, you absolute trifle.

You just need to word your initial posts better. Otherwise, it comes across as just another silly rant from another silly kid who doesn't know anything about cars. It's the internet. There's nothing else to go by other than what you type.

Your first answer is OK ;)
Your second answer is OK also, but could be better, because you don't need to know exactly what the setup is. Just the variation in the setup options which will lead to extremes of certain behaviours.
Your third answer is OK, but you need to be able to pre-empt the oversteer. In some cars, when it starts, you can't stop it. You can change the direction in which you veer off course though ;).
Your last answer would be great as an inclusion in your first post.

This car, with the standard loose setup, required you to approach corners more slowly than you would in a RWD car, and balance the throttle when pushing it beyond what is "comfortable" upon and during entry. Especially, you should be careful when the track swoops downwards. Too much throttle and you'll have problems. Too little throttle, and you'll have problems. As for the brakes, you also need to be conservative with them when trying to trail brake. I would suggest messing with camber, engine brake settings, etc. but you say the setup was forced. In such a case, you just need to adapt. You'll have to start from ground zero though. Just take your time. Drive normally, slowly, and gradually try going a bit faster. When you start managing throttle during the corner, it will surely feel weird. It's very different from a RWD vehicle, so managing the car will feel quite strange. When you start to get the hang of it, You likely will feel as if you're holding on to the edge of your seat and just hoping things don't wrong, and this feeling will last a few laps. However, your blind faith in the car not continuing to oversteer, will soon become a confidence that it won't.

So yeah. Next time, don't come across as just another one of "those kids" on the internet, and people will be more accommodating, lol.

Rodders
09-11-2018, 06:36
Na they drive pretty much as a FWD car should. I almost learned that the hard way in a real FWD car. Lift off oversteer is very real ;)

MaximusN
09-11-2018, 09:08
Na they drive pretty much as a FWD car should. I almost learned that the hard way in a real FWD car. Lift off oversteer is very real ;)
FWD:

KILL IT WITH FIRE!

:p

MartinMWWebb
09-11-2018, 09:58
Nothing wrong with a bit of lift off oversteer, the Clio is probably one of the most fun cars to drive in the game for me.

MaximusN
09-11-2018, 11:36
Nothing wrong with a bit of lift off oversteer, the Clio is probably one of the most fun cars to drive in the game for me.

I don't mind lift-off steer. Lift-off oversteer is something so unnatural it doesn't compute with me. Releasing the throttle in anything but the lowest gears(not over 2) should be a 100% safe action. Even in racecars IMHO. Porsche's with this behavior I don't like either BTW, so I it's not a blind anti-FWD thing(although I do hate it with firey passion ;) ).

cpcdem
09-11-2018, 12:08
Actually the FWD cars do have a very important advantage over RWD cars, in PCARS2 at least, that they do not get sucked in by the kerbs, but they can ride most of them easily, except for when braking. Now that I am thinking about it, this is probably the main reason why I prefer FWDs in PCARS2...

satco1066
09-11-2018, 12:14
first of all , allready the OPs title is confusing and wrong.
Physics is! Here and IRL.
Regardless if its setup for racing specialists or some old lady, the physics is the same. Just the behaviour is different ;)

BTW: FWD is so much fun. Try Bannochbrae with the Mini Countryman.

Sankyo
09-11-2018, 12:20
I don't mind lift-off steer. Lift-off oversteer is something so unnatural it doesn't compute with me. Releasing the throttle in anything but the lowest gears(not over 2) should be a 100% safe action. Even in racecars IMHO. Porsche's with this behavior I don't like either BTW, so I it's not a blind anti-FWD thing(although I do hate it with firey passion ;) ).
Not sure what you mean with 'unnatural', but it's 100% physics and I think you're well aware of that :). It all depends on characteristics and set-up of the car how much weight transfer happens when you lift the throttle (engine braking, suspension stiffness, weight distribution etc.) and that doesn't depend on which gear you're in that much. Lifting the throttle will move the weight of the car forward and that will unload the rear wheels causing oversteer.

cluck
09-11-2018, 13:17
Not sure what you mean with 'unnatural', but it's 100% physics and I think you're well aware of that :). It all depends on characteristics and set-up of the car how much weight transfer happens when you lift the throttle (engine braking, suspension stiffness, weight distribution etc.) and that doesn't depend on which gear you're in that much. Lifting the throttle will move the weight of the car forward and that will unload the rear wheels causing oversteer.Yup and it's one of the things a lot of reviewers noted about the Peugeot 106 GTi when it came out. Heading into a corner, you'd turn in, lift off, let the back end come round to put you into a lovely 4-wheel drift before you got hard on the power and blasted off to the next corner to do the same again! It's the only car I've owned that I truly miss. As much as it might seems "unnatural" if you drive RWD all the time, for the car itself it is anything but unnatural :)

bradleyland
09-11-2018, 14:49
Seriously... entered a TC lobby with forced default setup. Almost undriveable. Oversteer happens in an instant with no warned and you get literally NO feedback from the brakes.

Does anyone else experience this?

I experience it. I don't blame it on inaccurate physics though. If you want productive feedback on the forum, the first thing you've got to do is get humble. You've got two choices: 1) preserve your fragile ego by blaming the game every time you find a car / track you can't get your hands around, 2) recognize where you struggle and ask for help without blaming the game. Expressing frustration is one thing, but dumping all your problems on the game results in three pages of people chastising you. It's counter-productive.

On to some practical advice.

In racing, FWD cars are setup to oversteer off-throttle. This is done so that you can get on the throttle earlier, without experiencing terminal understeer. It's an inherent trait of FWD cars, and it requires significant adjustment to your driving style.

With FWD, you want to brake a little earlier and then get on the throttle earlier. I frequently find myself applying throttle before the apex in FWD cars. If you do it right, you'll rocket out of the corner like you can't believe. If you do it wrong, you'll find yourself dragging the tail of the car around like a passenger.

Where I really struggle is defending. You have to have the confidence to let the other guy go too deep. When their rear gets loose mid-corner, they'll scrub speed and you'll easily pass them on the straight. The key is in knowing which corners you can afford to adopt this strategy. If the corner is followed by a short straight, you need to go deep in order to defend, because you won't have enough room to make up the lost distance on the straight that follows. It's super tricky, and I'm not the best at it.

I hated TC when I started driving it, but I raced with a group of guys that really loved it, so we raced it a lot. I started out always driving the BMW, but eventually learned a bit about how to drive the FWD cars from my friends. Now I'll hop in just about any of them, depending on the circuit.

Try braking earlier and carry light throttle through the corners. When you start to get it right, you'll feel it.

MaximusN
09-11-2018, 16:13
Not sure what you mean with 'unnatural', but it's 100% physics and I think you're well aware of that :). It all depends on characteristics and set-up of the car how much weight transfer happens when you lift the throttle (engine braking, suspension stiffness, weight distribution etc.) and that doesn't depend on which gear you're in that much. Lifting the throttle will move the weight of the car forward and that will unload the rear wheels causing oversteer.
Very simple I hate FWD cars and the way they drive IRL too. Drove lots, only ever owned one and tend to keep it that way. Unless we are forced to go autonous, then I won't give a crap and don't even want to own a car anymore. Carsharing is fine then

And of course the gear depends, higher gear is less engine braking, so less weight transfer in comparison.

Sampo
09-11-2018, 22:23
And of course the gear depends, higher gear is less engine braking, so less weight transfer in comparison.

I thought it was dependent on the rpms between gears. I mean, if you are in high rpm on gear 5 and change down, you'll get high engine braking. If you're in lower rpm on gear 5 and change down, you'll get low engine braking.

MaximusN
09-11-2018, 22:46
I thought it was dependent on the rpms between gears. I mean, if you are in high rpm on gear 5 and change down, you'll get high engine braking. If you're in lower rpm on gear 5 and change down, you'll get low engine braking.
But there's a gearbox diluting the braking, just like when accelerating, but then negative.

Twinz
09-11-2018, 23:20
Just drove this car for the first time in a lobby with forced default setups (loose) and the car is quite tame.

I have driven FWD cars that were very twitchy IRL and this car is not bad at all.

cpcdem
09-11-2018, 23:39
Just drove this car for the first time in a lobby with forced default setups (loose) and the car is quite tame.

I have driven FWD cars that were very twitchy IRL and this car is not bad at all.

So we were in the same lobby? :)

Twinz
10-11-2018, 00:52
So we were in the same lobby? :)

Might have been...Brands Hatch GP, race started with ~22 drivers?

cpcdem
10-11-2018, 00:55
Might have been...Brands Hatch GP, race started with ~22 drivers?

Ah no, I joined just afterwards, Dubai, same # of players.

bmanic
10-11-2018, 02:40
Bit of a silly presumption...
Even If he can answer all of those in fine mechanical detail, it doesn't mean the physics of the car in question are correct as far as accuracy. Much like the Clio is largely regarded as not the most accurate physics wise, as confirmed by those who've actually raced them.

Link?


I would if I could mate, but it's just from various random reading/watching videos over 'x' months without paying it too much attention. Nick Hamilton 'may' have been an obvious one.

Edit: I was pretty sure I'd come across Nick Hamilton later being quoted as mentioning the physics after his initial comments.

.. how convenient.

This is how "physics reality" rumors spread.

It doesn't take a genius to just watch a few youtube videos of actual races and it all looks pretty accurate to me. Keep in mind that you can still tune that car quite a bit even with the limited stuff for tweaking.

r200ti
11-11-2018, 00:38
The fwd physics is fine imo, i wouldnt say its just like the real thing - it is flawed. However it does mimic what a track setup FWD car does

Its an understandable assumption to think its OTT given what a fast road FWD is like to drive (i.e dead safe) but a race setup is another world. Ill never forget the words 'just watch it on cold tyres'. yeh... the times that went through my head while i was sat facing the wrong way.

Twinz
11-11-2018, 01:47
The fwd physics is fine imo, i wouldnt say its just like the real thing - it is flawed. However it does mimic what a track setup FWD car does

Its an understandable assumption to think its OTT given what a fast road FWD is like to drive (i.e dead safe) but a race setup is another world. Ill never forget the words 'just watch it on cold tyres'. yeh... the times that went through my head while i was sat facing the wrong way.

This thing was a stable grocery-getter in stock form, but it was a different animal when prepped for STF. (Street-Touring FWD) It was fun to drive, but it could get a bit tail-happy when trail-braking.

Urban Chaos 2.0
11-11-2018, 10:07
The fwd physics is fine imo, i wouldnt say its just like the real thing - it is flawed. However it does mimic what a track setup FWD car does

Its an understandable assumption to think its OTT given what a fast road FWD is like to drive (i.e dead safe) but a race setup is another world. Ill never forget the words 'just watch it on cold tyres'. yeh... the times that went through my head while i was sat facing the wrong way.

I'm curious to know in which way you think it's flawed. I disagree, just so you know...

bmanic
11-11-2018, 16:44
.. and I disagree that a fast road FWD is dead safe. You can get into an awful lot of trouble in some of the latest FWD road warriors from various companies. Luckily I don't have personal experience in this but a relative of mine unfortunately has. :)

EDIT: hahaha.. similar situation to what my relative experienced. Just a quick let-go of the throttle (though his was a much more severe sideways thing):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNi8spFLEf4

.. happens at around 0:35 of the video. Typical situation, lots of throttle which results in massive understeer. Panic throttle-off which in turn results in oversteer. Granted, it's raining in the video.

dan2312
11-11-2018, 16:59
The EP3 Civic was known for being rather tail happy for a FWD car.

The camera position could be a bit better, can barely make out the road.

bradleyland
12-11-2018, 19:31
I thought it was dependent on the rpms between gears. I mean, if you are in high rpm on gear 5 and change down, you'll get high engine braking. If you're in lower rpm on gear 5 and change down, you'll get low engine braking.

It can be both:

1) If you downshift without using the clutch, the inertia of the engine's rotation must be overcome as you depress the clutch. This will require a lot of force through the driveline.

2) Once the clutch is fully engaged, the amount of engine braking torque is affected by the gear ratio, just like it is during acceleration.

During acceleration, your engine generates torque. This torque is multiplied by the ratio of the selected gear, plus the final drive. Deceleration is no different. With the throttle closed, the engine generated a fixed amount of resistance. This resistance is also multiplied by the transmission and final drive.

Sampo
14-11-2018, 08:07
I just reread what I wrote and I don't know what I even meant with it. :) It was not what I was thinking, anyway...

TekNeil
14-11-2018, 23:20
Haha...