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Cbrriderr
26-11-2018, 11:42
Just about 9/10 races drivers crash into each other on Turn 1. it has been like for ever. Why cant the drivers figure this out, and stop this. it ruins the race for everyone. I usually qualify in top 5 every time, and every time I get hammered from a driver next to me or behind, no matter how careful I enter T1. I am getting really sick of this. But I do love racing Online. maybe PC2 needs to come up w a penalty system for this T1 or something, I dont know but it is getting old.
what are your 2 cents on this matter?

Ashleyqprw12
26-11-2018, 12:28
Just the sad reality of online racing, try only using lobbies with a C rating or higher as then most are cleaner racers. I found it easier to achieve this by not posting a time and starting from the back, T1 antics can be so frustrating!

deknegt
26-11-2018, 12:31
Just about 9/10 races drivers crash into each other on Turn 1. it has been like for ever. Why cant the drivers figure this out, and stop this. it ruins the race for everyone. I usually qualify in top 5 every time, and every time I get hammered from a driver next to me or behind, no matter how careful I enter T1. I am getting really sick of this. But I do love racing Online. maybe PC2 needs to come up w a penalty system for this T1 or something, I dont know but it is getting old.
what are your 2 cents on this matter?

It's a problem that has hampered online racing titles since time immemorial, the all-or-nothing nature of public racing tends to mean that everyone wants to win places at the start so they can get a great result, often they don't care about the collateral damage or even ruining their own race. They're often the same kind of people that will just leave if they break the car or end up at the very back of the pack due to any penalties they might receive.

Ultimately it's hard to fix because it's just part of the public racing experience, whether you're playing PC2 or any other racing title. If a race is short, drivers are going to take massive risks to try and get an advantage. Everyone thinks they can win in T1, most of the times it ends in drama. Personally I even avoid qualifying altogether sometimes and just limp behind the back of the pack and start making moves further along when it's actually safe to do so. Or when I qualify high, I purposfully go wide into T1 to avoid all the carnage going on. Sometimes it's just a matter of hoping you'll get lucky and you won't get swept by another car that got punted by someone.

The only real 'fix' is a proper rating system, PC2 has one that's pretty good all things considered, but it paints with broad strokes and even people that are collateral to the carnage can be dinged on their license because of it. Also most open lobbies have a really low license because they want a full race, so the bad drivers can join too. The races that do have very harsh licenses are sparsely populated, and to be able to get into those you'll need to find a way to get your own license up, which ultimately means having to drive in those messy lobbies and be safe enough to just get that higher license tier you need.

The best (imo) solution is to find a racing league to join, they often have multi-race championships and punish bad drivers accordingly by giving away penalties or even possibly banning them altogether if they keep misbehaving. You'll also know the drivers you're facing at least somewhat, and there can be a distinct responsibility between everyone to have a clean and good race without incidents. Races are often longer too, thus there's less reason to make silly risks early on because a race can last anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours depending on what league you join.

Biggest disadvantage to league racing is that they're schedules, often once or maybe twice a week at a set time, it lacks the drop-in-drop-out 'race whenever' nature of open lobby racing. But that's simply a trade-off between regulated racing and open lobby racing.

hkraft300
26-11-2018, 12:51
If only it was just T1 crashing...
I've noticed lately the quality of public online has taken a serious nosedive.
But back on topic: I think the 5 lap races are extra incentive for T1 crashes. If you don't qualify front row, you're making a mad dash to the front. There's no time to read an opponent, close the distance, set up a pass, execute, defend and pull away. There's no time for the race to develop in <30 minute races.
If you qualify front row, you can generally get through before the wreck happens which catches out P3-8. So you're better off starting at the back, because by T3 you're well up in p4/5. But then, having navigated the noobs and wreckers you're so far behind it's a tough ask to reel in the leaders especially if you've only got a handful of laps.

nono782
26-11-2018, 12:58
Crash at T1 is not the worst thing.
I often see crashes on the straight before T1 because those who start faster don’t brake to avoid the ones before them.
It’s like people turned their brain off when playing online.

Mahjik
26-11-2018, 13:14
I've noticed lately the quality of public online has taken a serious nosedive.


That's what happens in sim titles go on sale....

FS7
26-11-2018, 14:40
I haven't played online racing sims in a while, but back when I played regularly my way to avoid rammers was to create a lobby, ban all driving aids, and enable full damage. That usually keeps most of the bad players out. Public lobbies are a disaster in every racing game I've played.

Swass
26-11-2018, 14:42
First one to turn 1 wins!

beatrunner
26-11-2018, 14:56
Just the sad reality of online racing, try only using lobbies with a C rating or higher as then most are cleaner racers. I found it easier to achieve this by not posting a time and starting from the back, T1 antics can be so frustrating!

this for me is the only good advice here. but for one that's new to PC2 its not an option sadly. in higher rated lobbies i had a lot of absolutely clean races...going two wide throu corners for whole laps, turn after turn. but it needs skill on both sides: the opponents and yourself...

wesker6664
26-11-2018, 15:02
If only it was just T1 crashing...
I've noticed lately the quality of public online has taken a serious nosedive.
I think that might be related to the fact that more and more lobbies are set with damage "off", then people act like d*cks.... On a side note i've also noticed quite a few new players lately, this is great !

nono782
26-11-2018, 17:12
I completely disagree with damage on being safer.
You often know damage is on when you crash or get crashed, unless you check each and every setting before you join the race.
It’s a game killer. You are wrecked, you are out.

srr3737
26-11-2018, 17:17
Join a league..

cpcdem
26-11-2018, 19:30
Join many leagues so you can do many races per week :)

Malcstar
26-11-2018, 22:14
Yes T1 with damage + public lobby = car roulette. If qualifying time permits it, observe monitor to be aware of unsafe drivers. Just stay away from U lobbies when points are on, it's a high risk for frustration.

eracerhead
26-11-2018, 22:49
There just seems to be little understanding of basic racecraft such as anticipating that the driver ahead will be braking for a corner or chicane. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been taken out at Zolder; absolutely no one should be attempting a pass in either zone, and yet I see (and often am a victim of) carnage there every race. Any intro racecraft video will tell you not to overtake in a corner, and yet that’s where most pass attempts are made online. Mindboggling.

beatrunner
27-11-2018, 05:48
Join a league..

Ofc in leagues its cleaner. But I as a casual racer am allways a bit sad about such answers. If everybody joins leagues there will be less and lesser good racers.outthere to race with in higher ranked and safe lobbies for us nonleague enthusiasts

MartinMWWebb
27-11-2018, 08:06
Ofc in leagues its cleaner. But I as a casual racer am allways a bit sad about such answers. If everybody joins leagues there will be less and lesser good racers.outthere to race with in higher ranked and safe lobbies for us nonleague enthusiasts

I feel you on this one!

Urban Chaos 2.0
27-11-2018, 09:06
People just can't drive, yo.

FlakNine
27-11-2018, 09:14
Ofc in leagues its cleaner. But I as a casual racer am allways a bit sad about such answers. If everybody joins leagues there will be less and lesser good racers.outthere to race with in higher ranked and safe lobbies for us nonleague enthusiasts

Agreed it would be great if the public lobbies worked better so you could jump into a race and be confident about having some clean fun racing. Sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

Having said that, you don't need to actually commit to a full league to join in racing with one of the organised racing groups. I race with the ART Sim Racing group, we have league races on Wednesday nights but there are sometimes one-off endurance races on Mondays plus shorter "fun night" races on Tuesdays. Even if you join a league and can't make every race it's not a big problem.

There are a variety of different abilities racing, I'm usually somewhere in the middle of the pack - but I can vouch for it being very clean racing with a bunch of friendly people. We are looking for more racers to join us - why not give it a try? Just find us on Discord (https://discordapp.com/invite/fDfXjNB).

beatrunner
27-11-2018, 09:17
I completely disagree with damage on being safer.
You often know damage is on when you crash or get crashed, unless you check each and every setting before you join the race.
It’s a game killer. You are wrecked, you are out.

it belongs to my "daily routine" as a simracer to check the settings of a lobby before i join it. and i usually dislike lobbies with anything but real settings (damage on and all this stuff). but then its also a question of "pre race communication". when i am the host i usually mention before race start that damage and mech.failures are on so people are aware of the "danger".

and i feel you nono782: i've had countless races where i was not able to win due to aero- or suspension damage. but for me this is part of the "adrenalin pushing fun" of simracing. if i know I or anybody else can have huge mistakes/crashes and still be able to win its only half the "fun". even if this means you can have a hard time when you got hit. but this leads to a change of behaviour in the following races. because when damage is off, not only the one "getting hit from behind" but also the attacker get damage and will have trouble having a clean fight for win.

but ofcourse, this does not really work in U-lobbies where everybody drives in: enthusiasts, complete newbies/kids which got PC2 in a cheap sale, griefers and so on....
but above D or even F-level this for me rarely happens.

have to admit: i usually start in front rows and am a fast starter, so most carnage happens behind me and i most of the time come away cleanly.

nono782
27-11-2018, 10:41
I understand.
For you it’s *adrenalin pushing fun*, but for me it’s *an annoying thing*
You are right, I hate myself when I join without checking for this setting, it should be my daily routine too.

wesker6664
27-11-2018, 12:14
I completely disagree with damage on being safer.
You often know damage is on when you crash or get crashed, unless you check each and every setting before you join the race.
Ahem.. damage settings are very visible on the HUD (of course detailed infos can only be found in the lobby settings). Generally speaking people behave differently depending on the damage settings, that's a fact ! For example if damage is off some players will sometimes just plow on purpose into the car in front (to push it wide and/or avoid braking), they rarely do that if damage is activated.

hkraft300
27-11-2018, 14:03
Join a league..

I've been in league races and seen bad behaviour in them, to the point the offenders ended up with consequtive DQ and eventually quit.


People just can't drive, yo.

Unfortunately people do have a conflated sense of their abilities on console coming from other racing games. I was one of them.
Race start nerves are a real thing and some people aren't ready for that adrenaline dump when the light goes green and there's a bunch of cars around.
Lack of VR and side mirrors is a big issue too. People just don't judge the width of their cars very well.

There are also just plain idiots.

satco1066
27-11-2018, 14:14
or setup your own lobby with a dedicated server.
there you have a web interface with kickbuttons.
from time to time just act as race director, watch idiots, warn and if needed kick them.
Put them on the black list.
After some sessions your lobby gets cleaner.

beatrunner
27-11-2018, 15:48
Lack of VR and side mirrors is a big issue too.

You are so right with that. Since i jumped into VR i hardly had any big problems as i really feel and see where me and the opponents are in a natural way...

hkraft300
27-11-2018, 21:57
You are so right with that. Since i jumped into VR i hardly had any big problems as i really feel and see where me and the opponents are in a natural way...

Unfortunately it's not an option on console.
Even if it was, from seeing the obvious wrecking online lately I don't think VR will help a great deal.

Mahjik
27-11-2018, 22:13
T1 crashes aren't typically related to not having visibility. I had posted this on Steam for the OP who posted there:

The problem is that most sim racers don't have braking points. What happens is they don't know when to brake when there are other cars around them as they don't have their own visual cues when they need to brake. This has them slamming into others as they wait until they see another car's brake lights before hitting their own brakes.

Racing in a crowd is not easy. Unfortunately, most sim races don't understand their issue to be able to address it.

Even with VR, if you don't have situational awareness, it won't help. Racing in a crowd isn't easy and it does require understanding when a mistake happens, why the mistake happened, and wanting to fix the mistake. Most "gamers" don't care to go through all that.

hkraft300
28-11-2018, 04:26
Oh ye that's a huge thing.
Even with VR if you have a car on your outside you can't see the brake boards on the track edge/fence and while looking around at other cars you lose your braking references.
Personally if I'm mid pack I'll touch the brakes so my rear lights light up. Let the cars behind me see I'm stopping and I'll do that way early. They'll usually dive around me and tangle with another car!

DECATUR PLAYA
28-11-2018, 06:59
Oh ye that's a huge thing.
Even with VR if you have a car on your outside you can't see the brake boards on the track edge/fence and while looking around at other cars you lose your braking references.
Personally if I'm mid pack I'll touch the brakes so my rear lights light up. Let the cars behind me see I'm stopping and I'll do that way early. They'll usually dive around me and tangle with another car!

^RaceKraft.

beatrunner
28-11-2018, 17:56
...ofcourse my story.about VR beeing the cure for most of the problems is combined with me knowing most of the tracks “by heart“ and not needing any visual reference for breaking points...

Lack of track- and drivingknowledge of newbies can notbe compensated by any technology. If driving with unexperienced people only way to avoid “carnage“ is to avoid the unexperienced drivers.

But not by driving in any league but by joining lobbies with high safety ranking.

Why? Unexperienced means not having much of clean rscing and thus having liw safety rating.....

hkraft300
28-11-2018, 22:01
There's also gamers.
Sim racing community approaches racing as a simulation of real racing, with real consequences. They observe racing etiquette, safety, damage everything in a motorsports context.
Gamers aren't sim racers and are often not motorsports enthusiasts. They can maybe name a few of the latest supermarkets on the market right now but that's as far as they go. They get on track with the same smash and grab attitude they've been playing GTA...

nono782
28-11-2018, 22:51
Yes but it’s a matter of attitude.
In GTA I did not crash other players during races.
In any game you have 3 categories of players : the fair players, the selfish players and the griefers.
I think we mostly talk about the selfish players. They don’t mean to ruin the game but they do because they play online like they would do offline against AI.

hkraft300
29-11-2018, 12:37
Experienced or not, it does come down to attitude. With experience maybe someone realises trying to ram through a field of cars just doesn't work. With the right attitude, you don't need experience to tell you that.

SirBarnabus2nd
29-11-2018, 15:57
A useful tip that works for me to help prevent these crashes is to brake very lightly in the approach to your braking points (so that you dont even slow down but the brake lights turn on). This means that the people following you who are waiting to for you to brake before braking themselves, see the brake lights turn on, and start braking in advance of reaching the braking point and thus are slowed down sufficiently to make the corner without having to crash to slow down (this must be a world record for use of word brake/braking in a single sentence) . The reality is that the majority of T1 incidents are accidental, people dont realise they are in a slip stream (particularly at a track with a long run to T1 like monza or catalunya) so are sucked along behind the person leading them and smash into the back of them (of course there are people just out to cause trouble). This trick gets them slowed down before it is too late and a crash is inevitable.

Give the trick a go. Its not a miracle cure but definitely helped me get the S safety licence quicker

hkraft300
29-11-2018, 22:13
This helps to avoid getting rammed yourself if you're mid pack. The cowboys dive around you and just hit the cars in front! But you're prepared to avoid that wreck.


^RaceKraft.

My middle name :D

iggy
07-12-2018, 15:43
Sorry, I haven't read this whole thread... But basically I've mostly given up on public lobbies. Or when I do run them, I go in with the attitude that it doesn't matter if I win or loose, or even if I get wrecked before the first turn.... Lower your expectations, and when you get a good race you'll be happy.

But... that's not what I came to say... The solution is to find a group of people who race regularly and race with them. There will still be some opening lap wrecks, but it's much less frequent. The tricky part is finding a group of people who like similar types of cars/racing as you...

Janneman60
08-12-2018, 09:17
A few weeks ago I started with pc2 again after as year break. I didn't wanted to do the AI again so straight to online racing. First qualifying was in the midfield and yes the race was bad. At turn 1 I was one of those guys to brake to late and wanting to much and so ruinining the race for others. I learned from that but guess I am not the only one.

Because I was learning .I drove in the midfield for a while and that is not the place to be. People losing control in front of you is tricky, but that idiots who are just on the track to drive you off are frustrating.

Now I am getting better and qualify more to the front. Give some room to others at the start and then the great battles are fantastic.

BrunoB
08-12-2018, 13:06
This wrecking behaviour is something that more or less is destroying public MP races worldwide.

The only way to get both the intentionally wreckers and the more goofy unintentionally guys to stop others from getting enjoyment of MP races is the same as in RL.
In RL your car get smatched and damaged if you get yourself into accidents on track.
It costs both a lot of money but also teleports you out of the race (if the accident is severe).
OK?
In virtuel racing this teleport thing could be rather easily reproduced!
Yes even without banning people from participating in MP races.
How?

If a rather simple algoritm was included in the sim that as soon as a driver caused a severe wreck teleported this driver into some kind of ghost mode - where he still could see other cars but other cars couldnt see (and feel) him.
He could still race MP - but couldnt cause accidents for others.

This special MP ghost mode is allready included in iRacing - though not as an educating/idiot training tool :-)
A further but still rather simple algoritm could be to give the guy some number of races quarantine until he the next time was allowed to participate without the special ghost mode.
Until he has learned it :-)

Cholton82
08-12-2018, 18:04
I think one of the problems policing this is that some people would argue they have bought the game to play how they want even if that means they get fun out of intentionally wrecking others online , maybe open lobbies for people who just want to mess about and lobbies where you must agree to play by the rules or find yourself facing bans from said lobby.

I’d prefer a stricter policy myself as I play as fair as possible but some would disagree

satco1066
08-12-2018, 23:42
This wrecking behaviour is something that more or less is destroying public MP races worldwide.

The only way to get both the intentionally wreckers and the more goofy unintentionally guys to stop others from getting enjoyment of MP races is the same as in RL.
In RL your car get smatched and damaged if you get yourself into accidents on track.
It costs both a lot of money but also teleports you out of the race (if the accident is severe).
OK?
In virtuel racing this teleport thing could be rather easily reproduced!
Yes even without banning people from participating in MP races.
How?

If a rather simple algoritm was included in the sim that as soon as a driver caused a severe wreck teleported this driver into some kind of ghost mode - where he still could see other cars but other cars couldnt see (and feel) him.
He could still race MP - but couldnt cause accidents for others.

This special MP ghost mode is allready included in iRacing - though not as an educating/idiot training tool :-)
A further but still rather simple algoritm could be to give the guy some number of races quarantine until he the next time was allowed to participate without the special ghost mode.
Until he has learned it :-)

First of all: Why the hell do you mention in every second post iRacing? If you like it so much, stay with it.

And, nope, this special mode makes no sense. Most of the racers that get ghostet would leave the server. Why should they race half an hour, just as ghost.
The damage they did to others would NOT help that poor guys that got pushed out by idiots.

BrunoB
09-12-2018, 12:42
First of all: Why the hell do you mention in every second post iRacing? If you like it so much, stay with it.
First of all: Anybody with some kind of intelligence will ask has any existing sim such kind of MP "ghost" mode.
Is it possible to include?
Thats the reason I argumented for sceptical people with some kind of intelligence that such a mode does allready exist - in iRacing :-)

Second of all: I see no reason from now on to respond to any of your confronting outpourings - because they are more or less only rather hostile and therefore worthless to respond to.

Hehe and just like I dont want to tell people what game they should be playing I consider it complete worthless to read some confronting outpouring of what I should play.

Have a nice day:-) :-)

BrunoB
09-12-2018, 12:52
I think one of the problems policing this is that some people would argue they have bought the game to play how they want even if that means they get fun out of intentionally wrecking others online
Agree.
And against such kind of legal attitude(legal because they have payed for the game) there is (IMO) more or less only 2 solutions.
1. Ban such people from the servers or
2. Include some feature in the game that make it impossible for such behaviour to destroy the racing enjoyment for others.

DECATUR PLAYA
12-12-2018, 05:06
Watch the good guys in the room. They always get thru. Watch the techniques that some use to get thru. You know its coming so let it happen and then drive thru. Dont let it frustrate you just learn how to get thru. Again watch the good guys the fast guys they always get thru. Do they get caught up yeah every once in while but most of the time the get thru.

The other thing I wanted to talk about is in this conversation we always talk about the rammers or the trailing guys and most of the time its the trailing guys fault but I think we need to also talk about the leaders. Just because your up front doesnt mean you can drive Miss Daisy into the turn. As some have said its a lot of pressure leading a bunch of angry drivers into that first turn and sometimes guys screw it up really bad. The best chance the field has of getting into turn 1 cleanly is the leader getting in quickly and cleanly. Some guys freeze up and slow way down to take the turn and in this case you actually caused your own problems. Sometimes fast guys come in late in qualifying and dont get a good time so they are trapped mid pack. Those guys are gonna come up screaming thru the field and cause a log jam at that first turn. When you see this happening use your racecraft and back off. 1 of 2 things will happen 1) A big wreck 2) everybody has to slowdown so much that exiting the first turn your right there. Turn 1 is not a big deal. You just got to know when to go and when to slow. The good guys always get thru. I have seen it and done it to many times for it to be luck.

MartinMWWebb
12-12-2018, 08:50
I've managed to get through without issue quite a few times.. but still it is sometimes unavoidable when someone comes charging like a bullet from behind through the pack

hkraft300
12-12-2018, 11:33
Need to watch that rear view mirror mate :glee:

Twinz
12-12-2018, 12:06
Need to watch that rear view mirror mate :glee:

-Then get some popcorn and watch your rearview mirror like a tiny horror movie.

Knowing you are about to be rammed doesn't mean there is anything you can do about it. (Turn one usually involves being surrounded by other cars)

Atak Kat
12-12-2018, 12:38
I've found some success making it through T1 (usually).

I'm not often in top 3, but when I am, I find that is the worst situation. That's where I find the least possibility to get through T1. The front rows of the grid have delusions of grandeur from their great qualifying times, and often end up taking me out. I will admit, I've made the same errors/mistakes.

Otherwise, the early/light braking mentioned by hkraft300 often helps. It certainly works on me if I'm behind a car and I see his brake lights.

Then, if I can, I try to go to the outside of the turn, of course trying not to cut anyone off. But I find that everyone dives inside and this makes chaos. When I go to the outside, and try to stay really really wide around T1, it's usually successful. The only risk is usually the kamakaze coming into T1, which is unavoidable in any situation. Otherwise, I might lose a spot or two, but I will make it through, and more likely several others will get taken out and I end up further ahead than behind.

dan2312
13-12-2018, 00:01
in most races end up like this, even when in 1st place and your up against amateur drivers! im sorry but i could not help myself! i was laughing so hard, the 1st thing i thought of was pcars 2 online!

so many players are just like the cops from the clip in the game

https://youtu.be/LMagP52BWG8


Go on, tell me im wrong when your racing with a bunch of U class racers, u just have to think of it as of a typical race when your trying to win! :D

DECATUR PLAYA
18-12-2018, 07:00
https://youtu.be/hRF-pgMWpwQ

This is my attitude towards turn 1. Chrome spray.