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Hazlazm
05-12-2018, 13:26
Hey all.

I played Project Cars 1 in the past on my PS4 with a controller. I recently bought Pcars 2 for the PC now that I have, also quite recently, bought a wheel and now I understand when people say "when you have switched from a controller to a wheel setup, you will never go back" and that is very much true, at least for this game.

Anyways, I have always had problems understanding tuning even when reading the in-game descriptions. So I thought I would once and for all, hopefully, get an answer to some questions I have had for a long time and which I have found myself thinking about not only when playing Pcars but other games as Dirt Rally, Forza and so on. I know tuning has a lot to do with testing the car out, find something you dislike and try to tune it but I generally don't feel any differences when I tune except for obvious things like the car not being oversteery and then after tuning it is very oversteery for example.


1. When I have adjusted e.g Camber Angle I have Always wanted the same value in the front as the rear. Same with toe-in and lots of other settings and I know this is wrong since many default setups have different values between front and rear. Why would you want a higher Camber Angle on the front than the rear and vice versa? Does this have to with the drivetrain? Why would you want a higher Tyre Pressure in the front and lower in the back and vice versa? Why stiffer springs in the front and lower in the rear and vice versa? You get the point.

2. What should I do to decrease oversteer? I have just begun the A class series and I tested the cars out on a dry track before I decided which one I wanted to drive in the career and I settled with the Mercedez 190E but in the career I have encountered lots of oversteer issues (probably to do with higher/lower temperatures) which I didn't experience on the Nürburgring Sprint.

3. This doesn't have to do with tuning but should you release the gas when you shift gears? I know you do in normal cars in real life, but how is with racing cars? I haven't noticed a difference when doing it in-game but maybe I'm not observant enough.

4. Camber Angle - increase is more MINUS right? So -3.7 camber angle is more as in increased compared to -3.5?

5. Do Steering Ratio increase/decrease your Degrees of Rotation? If a car has 540 DOR and you lower the Steering Ratio it will decrease your DOR to e.g 500?

6. When people talk about soft-lock when it comes to DOR, do they mean that if a car has 720 DOR and you turn your wheel to that DOR you can still keep turning your wheel but nothing will happen in-game as in the car wont turn anymore since it's already at its max DOR?

That's it for now. I am just about to launch the game so I might get reminded of something I have forgotten to ask about. Anyways, I thank you in advance for reading and hopefully replying. :)

Invincible
05-12-2018, 13:49
1. I'll leave that to someone else, who actually knows what he's doing in the tuning menue.

2. There are several options: stiffen front suspension and sway bar, softer suspension and sway bar at the rear. Less tire pressure at the rear. More caster at the rear can work too. More downforce at the rear. Try some options and see what works for you.

3. Depends on the transmission type. But in general, you don't have to.

4. Yes

5. erm... idk.

6. Yes. When you turn past the soft-lock point, the input is still recognized by the game, but it doesn't do anything since the car has already reached max lock.

sliedard
05-12-2018, 15:33
[QUOTE=Hazlazm;1551767]Hey all.

I played Project Cars 1 in the past on my PS4 with a controller. I recently bought Pcars 2 for the PC now that I have, also quite recently, bought a wheel and now I understand when people say "when you have switched from a controller to a wheel setup, you will never go back" and that is very much true, at least for this game.

Anyways, I have always had problems understanding tuning even when reading the in-game descriptions. So I thought I would once and for all, hopefully, get an answer to some questions I have had for a long time and which I have found myself thinking about not only when playing Pcars but other games as Dirt Rally, Forza and so on. I know tuning has a lot to do with testing the car out, find something you dislike and try to tune it but I generally don't feel any differences when I tune except for obvious things like the car not being oversteery and then after tuning it is very oversteery for example.


1. When I have adjusted e.g Camber Angle I have Always wanted the same value in the front as the rear. Same with toe-in and lots of other settings and I know this is wrong since many default setups have different values between front and rear. Why would you want a higher Camber Angle on the front than the rear and vice versa? Does this have to with the drivetrain? Why would you want a higher Tyre Pressure in the front and lower in the back and vice versa? Why stiffer springs in the front and lower in the rear and vice versa? You get the point.

2. What should I do to decrease oversteer? I have just begun the A class series and I tested the cars out on a dry track before I decided which one I wanted to drive in the career and I settled with the Mercedez 190E but in the career I have encountered lots of oversteer issues (probably to do with higher/lower temperatures) which I didn't experience on the Nürburgring Sprint.

3. This doesn't have to do with tuning but should you release the gas when you shift gears? I know you do in normal cars in real life, but how is with racing cars? I haven't noticed a difference when doing it in-game but maybe I'm not observant enough.

4. Camber Angle - increase is more MINUS right? So -3.7 camber angle is more as in increased compared to -3.5?

5. Do Steering Ratio increase/decrease your Degrees of Rotation? If a car has 540 DOR and you lower the Steering Ratio it will decrease your DOR to e.g 500?

6. When people talk about soft-lock when it comes to DOR, do they mean that if a car has 720 DOR and you turn your wheel to that DOR you can still keep turning your wheel but nothing will happen in-game as in the car wont turn anymore since it's already at its max DOR?

That's it for now. I am just about to launch the game so I might get reminded of something I have forgotten to ask about. Anyways, I thank you in advance for reading and hopefully replying. :)[/QUOTE

sliedard
05-12-2018, 15:35
Yorkie 065 Youtube...

Hazlazm
05-12-2018, 16:13
Yorkie 065 Youtube...


I have watched his videos for a bit and might continue to do so but I am not interested in becoming an expert in this game. I don't have that kind of dedication/time.


1. I'll leave that to someone else, who actually knows what he's doing in the tuning menue.

2. There are several options: stiffen front suspension and sway bar, softer suspension and sway bar at the rear. Less tire pressure at the rear. More caster at the rear can work too. More downforce at the rear. Try some options and see what works for you.

3. Depends on the transmission type. But in general, you don't have to.

4. Yes

5. erm... idk.

6. Yes. When you turn past the soft-lock point, the input is still recognized by the game, but it doesn't do anything since the car has already reached max lock.

Appreciate your reply, thanks!

blinkngone
05-12-2018, 17:33
I have watched his videos for a bit and might continue to do so but I am not interested in becoming an expert in this game. I don't have that kind of dedication/time.



Appreciate your reply, thanks!

Hey, for the 190E increase rear toe to 0.8 from 0.6. Then adjust the LSD to see if this reduces the oversteer.
262691

cpcdem
05-12-2018, 18:33
Regarding camber, I think this setting is the "unloaded" camber, so theoretically at least, when you put fuel in the car, drive at high speed so the aero kicks in etc, the actual camber angle changes, so you may want to take this into account while setting the starting camber value. I have no idea if this is modeled (and how close to reality) in the sim though. Also I guess it could also make sense to choose different camber values front-rear as another means of affecting under/over steer balance. Again, no idea if this is actually modeled. Personally I think I have never adjusted camber in PCARS2.

At which phase are you getting oversteer? During deceleration for a corner, during the corner, in the exit, when downshifting? Which corners, slow, medium, high speed? With which car? Are your tires in the correct temperature and pressure? Depending on the answers you'll need to change different setup items (apart from the possibility to learn to deal with it as it is :)), usual things to change are tire pressures, brake bias, ARBs, Diff, Aero, engine braking.

Depending letting off the gas when accelerating, it again depends on the car. For GT3s for example, you shouldn't, the "electronics" take care of doing that. For some road cars you need to do that to be fast, depending also on the auto-clutch setting you are using. But it's all different for different cars.

Miker
05-12-2018, 22:05
Watch the Chris Hayes series on tuning on you tube, makes it very accessible and the basic fundamentals very clear.

My personal tip is that’s all too easy to waste time tuning which would better served practicing, forget tuning a car until you can drive it to consistent lap times and really understand what you need to change about its handling to make you faster....

Hazlazm
05-12-2018, 23:24
Hey, for the 190E increase rear toe to 0.8 from 0.6. Then adjust the LSD to see if this reduces the oversteer.
262691

Will try that. Thanks! I did mess stiffen the front springs and soften the rear a little as well as lowered the LSD Preload but only to 50 (60 is default). I think it got a little bit but not enough.


Regarding camber, I think this setting is the "unloaded" camber, so theoretically at least, when you put fuel in the car, drive at high speed so the aero kicks in etc, the actual camber angle changes, so you may want to take this into account while setting the starting camber value. I have no idea if this is modeled (and how close to reality) in the sim though. Also I guess it could also make sense to choose different camber values front-rear as another means of affecting under/over steer balance. Again, no idea if this is actually modeled. Personally I think I have never adjusted camber in PCARS2.

At which phase are you getting oversteer? During deceleration for a corner, during the corner, in the exit, when downshifting? Which corners, slow, medium, high speed? With which car? Are your tires in the correct temperature and pressure? Depending on the answers you'll need to change different setup items (apart from the possibility to learn to deal with it as it is :)), usual things to change are tire pressures, brake bias, ARBs, Diff, Aero, engine braking.

Depending letting off the gas when accelerating, it again depends on the car. For GT3s for example, you shouldn't, the "electronics" take care of doing that. For some road cars you need to do that to be fast, depending also on the auto-clutch setting you are using. But it's all different for different cars.


Hmm, alright. I think, at least for starters, that I will follow the default setup (loose/stable) as a guideline, as in if e.g front tyre pressure is higher than the rear, then I wont bring them to the same value or do the reverse.

I started with Ginetta Junior and it worked fine then moved on to Ginetta GT5 which was a blast and then I moved to GT3 and picked the Mustang Boss and had so much trouble that I just retired more or less every race so I could redo the series with a different car but I changed my mind and chose the A series. I didn't have much trouble with the Mercedez 190E in the first game but now I encountered oversteer when coming out of a corner and accelerating. I try to be more gentle with the gas but then I feel as if I'm to slow instead. I have a much harder time in qualifying since the tyres are cold but when they're warm it's still a tad too much oversteer on corner exit, and it happens mostly on slow/medium corners.


Watch the Chris Hayes series on tuning on you tube, makes it very accessible and the basic fundamentals very clear.

My personal tip is that’s all too easy to waste time tuning which would better served practicing, forget tuning a car until you can drive it to consistent lap times and really understand what you need to change about its handling to make you faster....


Will check that out.

Good tip actually. I don't find tuning much fun either and I only tune when I try to solve a problem, especially if it's with a car I like. I don't tune to try and beat other drivers records or get personal best and try to beat that and so on. Might do that in the future though, depending on how much interest I will have in the game once I have spent lots of time in the career mode.

hkraft300
06-12-2018, 07:08
1. This video will give you a good idea of why soft vs stiff springs to begin with:


http://youtu.be/hGZRairqHNI

Now the rest get a bit more complicated and it has to do with a combination of suspension kinematics (design), weight distribution (drivetrain) and desired grip characteristics.
A car that shows stiff springs in the front vs rear might have very close actual stiffness. This is due to the motion ratios. The length of the suspension arms and where the springs are located along those arms (think mcpherson struts in a regular car vs inboard springs in a prototype) will affect the spring rates you want, as well as the weight distribution.
So a car with 1:1 motion ratio, 50:50 weight distribution (Centre of gravity) and equal tire width would want the same spring rates front and back for equal grip levels. Theoretically this should give you a neutral balance. Then the front vs rear engine thing happens and you end up with needing to stiffen one end over another to neutralise/ get the desired handling characteristics by altering the grip level. This gets complicated again by aerodynamics, but that's a lesson for another day.
Now going back to camber: depending on the amount of body roll and dynamic camber change (kinematics) the car experiences (as well as staggered tire width), your tires will heat across the width of it at different rates. You want to adjust camber to control those temps. If the inside of the tire is too hot, you're wearing the insides edge much more than the outside (think stance cars). This also means you're not using the entire available tire width for maximum grip. Same for the opposite: if your outside is hotter than the inside, your tire is rolling over to its sidewall.

This should all raise more questions than you've asked, becauseI missed a crap ton of details. You'll want to dig a little deeper to fill in the gaps.

Bealdor
06-12-2018, 07:42
Now going back to camber: depending on the amount of body roll and dynamic camber change (kinematics) the car experiences (as well as staggered tire width), your tires will heat across the width of it at different rates. You want to adjust camber to control those temps. If the inside of the tire is too hot, you're wearing the insides edge much more than the outside (think stance cars). This also means you're not using the entire available tire width for maximum grip. Same for the opposite: if your outside is hotter than the inside, your tire is rolling over to its sidewall.

@Hazlazm: To add to that, you should keep in mind that you actually want the inside of the tire to be slightly hotter than the outside (5-10°C delta). Your target should not be to equal them out completely.

And as cpcdem already mentioned, it's important to know in which situations the car behaves in an undesired way to indentify the issue and know what to adjust.

hkraft300
06-12-2018, 10:59
@Hazlazm: To add to that, you should keep in mind that you actually want the inside of the tire to be slightly hotter than the outside (5-10°C delta). Your target should not be to equal them out completely.



This is very important because tracks do have straights and med-low load corners where you're not utilising the full width of the tire.
I should've been more clear about that.

cpcdem
06-12-2018, 13:05
I started with Ginetta Junior and it worked fine then moved on to Ginetta GT5 which was a blast and then I moved to GT3 and picked the Mustang Boss and had so much trouble that I just retired more or less every race so I could redo the series with a different car but I changed my mind and chose the A series. I didn't have much trouble with the Mercedez 190E in the first game but now I encountered oversteer when coming out of a corner and accelerating. I try to be more gentle with the gas but then I feel as if I'm to slow instead. I have a much harder time in qualifying since the tyres are cold but when they're warm it's still a tad too much oversteer on corner exit, and it happens mostly on slow/medium corners.

Ahh, the 190E! Not sure why, but when I had tried it, it didn't click with me, although many people love it. Just had a quick look again, yeah, hard to handle it, probably because it is a front engined heavy and powerful RWD car I guess. The game does give a "Control Difficulty" 3/3 for it!

Main thing with it, I think is to get used to properly apply throttle on corner exit, do not go full throttle too soon, be patient while you are still turning, it needs practice of course to learn how much it can handle. If you want to make setup adjustments to help you with this, you can go to the Diff page and increase the Power Ramp value from 35 to something much higher (maybe try 70 at first), this will make the car rotate much less under acceleration, especially in slow corners. If that makes you comfortable with it, then later try slowly lowering the value again and see if you can manage it better now.

Hazlazm
07-12-2018, 14:54
Thanks for all your informative replies even though I might not even understand half of the things regarding how a certain part of a car works/how it behaves and such, haha.


Ahh, the 190E! Not sure why, but when I had tried it, it didn't click with me, although many people love it. Just had a quick look again, yeah, hard to handle it, probably because it is a front engined heavy and powerful RWD car I guess. The game does give a "Control Difficulty" 3/3 for it!

Main thing with it, I think is to get used to properly apply throttle on corner exit, do not go full throttle too soon, be patient while you are still turning, it needs practice of course to learn how much it can handle. If you want to make setup adjustments to help you with this, you can go to the Diff page and increase the Power Ramp value from 35 to something much higher (maybe try 70 at first), this will make the car rotate much less under acceleration, especially in slow corners. If that makes you comfortable with it, then later try slowly lowering the value again and see if you can manage it better now.


I loved it in PC1 and I find that I am liking it more and more now after I copied blinkngone LSD settings. What is the consequence of having a high Power Ramp? I'm not in-game so I can't read it's description right now but even so, I might ask here since the in-game explanation might not be adequate.

cpcdem
07-12-2018, 18:04
I loved it in PC1 and I find that I am liking it more and more now after I copied blinkngone LSD settings. What is the consequence of having a high Power Ramp? I'm not in-game so I can't read it's description right now but even so, I might ask here since the in-game explanation might not be adequate.

You can read here for details http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?52783-Magic-inside!-Need-Help-With-Differentials , but in very short, it does not allow giving much more torque to the outer wheel while cornering and accelerating, which has the result that the car does not rotate too much, so you reduce oversteer this way. Disadvantage is the same thing, makes it more difficult to rotate the car under acceleration.

Also normally I think it should be making acceleration slower (since less torque is applied to the "important" wheel - someone correct me if I am wrong), but I do not think this is actually modeled in the game, at least it's not something I am noticing. Last night I increased the angle to the full, 90 degrees and the car actually felt very good and fast, maybe give this a try.