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Cbrriderr
05-02-2019, 08:34
what is wrong w this car. nothing works. always power oversteer on corner exit, no good corner entry. any good tips?
i drive the F3 on iracing and car is way more responsive

blinkngone
05-02-2019, 09:52
What's the matter really, in the Event you are at 1:36.996 +0:03.393 . In TT you are at 1:35.477 +0:00.707. Conditions might be different.

In a different event with a different class car you are at 1:41.319 +0:03.759. Most of the guys in front of you in this event are racing all the time.:)

Cbrriderr
06-02-2019, 08:42
In community event condition is same for all. I just can't get car to be stable no matter, thus putting a slow lap time. Being 4 sec off 1st place on a short track like this is bad.

Bealdor
06-02-2019, 08:52
Try this suspension setup:

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What are your differential settings?

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 09:12
In TT he is just using Viscous at 250 NM. 2 out of 4 of the top runs in TT use this. The WR uses a Ratchet.:D Engine Braking 0.
WR
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blinkngone
06-02-2019, 09:41
Try this suspension setup:

264526

What are your differential settings?
cbrrider's Dampers
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blinkngone
06-02-2019, 09:58
In community event condition is same for all. I just can't get car to be stable no matter, thus putting a slow lap time. Being 4 sec off 1st place on a short track like this is bad.

Lowrider is using SirBangelot[BEL] setup from TT and in the Event he is at 1:34.498 +0:00.895 .

The only run using the low Damper settings is Robert C which is a patch 5.0 you shared.
Robert's Dampers from 26/05/2018 22:54.
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Bealdor
06-02-2019, 09:58
No disrespect but those are damping values for a family car when combined with default FC springs (30-40 Crit. damping).
With those dampers the chassis will bounce and wobble over every bump, resulting in loss of grip and an unstable aero platform.

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 10:24
No disrespect but those are damping values for a family car when combined with default FC springs (30-40 Crit. damping).
With those dampers the chassis will bounce and wobble over every bump, resulting in loss of grip and an unstable aero platform.
Suspension.
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Cbrriderr
06-02-2019, 10:33
i have tried most top setups frpm top 10 drivers. yes they use this setup, high preload, 45/45 on diff,
same issue for. the car will almost snap oversteer on corner exit, and have a understeer feel on corner entry. currently playing w chassis balance, like 44/56 and diff settings. trying all sort of variations, but same results
car will oversteer corner exit. i do not understand it?
in iracing all open wheel car, F3, FR3.5 are very stable, easy to control, steer input a awesome
on pc2 this FC car, steer input is really bad.
BEALDOR-
So for good suspension setup we want the shock to be soft enough yet still perform good. having a shock spring on max, and max out all damping will actuality mess car up. we want soft as possible with out compromise control. we want the shock to be able to com, and rebound in its sweet spot; On all monoshocks, sweet spot is 1/4 way from bottom of shock, and 1/4 way from top of shock.
we dont want shock bottoming out, and also extending all way top. we dont want it also compressing really fast, thus causing a pogo stick effect

Bealdor
06-02-2019, 10:34
As I said, family van suspension:

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Not sure what's going on here. Maybe there's an issue with the suspension geometry ingame?
Because I can't imagine how you can drive this car competitively with such a setup.

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 10:43
i have tried most top setups frpm top 10 drivers. yes they use this setup, high preload, 45/45 on diff,
same issue for. the car will almost snap oversteer on corner exit, and have a understeer feel on corner entry. currently playing w chassis balance, like 44/56 and diff settings. trying all sort of variations, but same results
car will oversteer corner exit. i do not understand it?
in iracing all open wheel car, F3, FR3.5 are very stable, easy to control, steer input a awesome
on pc2 this FC car, steer input is really bad.
BEALDOR-
So for good suspension setup we want the shock to be soft enough yet still perform good. having a shock spring on max, and max out all damping will actuality mess car up. we want soft as possible with out compromise control. we want the shock to be able to com, and rebound in its sweet spot; On all monoshocks, sweet spot is 1/4 way from bottom of shock, and 1/4 way from top of shock.
we dont want shock bottoming out, and also extending all way top. we dont want it also compressing really fast, thus causing a pogo stick effect

Hi, when they use a Ratchet in LSD the other settings don't matter. Jussi has described the Ratchet as the worst possible LSD. Currently in real life I have found rock climbers using it. It's in the game because the Mustang Cobra used it. That people can use this in game just shows their throttle control is amazing. The rear toe for the Ratchet is at 0.3.

You have rear toe at 0, Default is 0.6. At 0 it would be very easy to snap oversteer on excessive throttle on exit.

You use RobertC's setup, he has run this car 4 times and is the only one using these soft dampers/stiff springs settings that I have found. Not picking on him but he doesn't do very well with it either on the tracks he runs.
You drive his setup better than he does.:)

Bealdor
06-02-2019, 10:55
BEALDOR-
So for good suspension setup we want the shock to be soft enough yet still perform good. having a shock spring on max, and max out all damping will actuality mess car up. we want soft as possible with out compromise control. we want the shock to be able to com, and rebound in its sweet spot; On all monoshocks, sweet spot is 1/4 way from bottom of shock, and 1/4 way from top of shock.
we dont want shock bottoming out, and also extending all way top. we dont want it also compressing really fast, thus causing a pogo stick effect

A good damper setup means highest slow damping and lowest fast damping that is still working fine on your chassis.
A good start for racecars is generally at 70% slow and 30% fast damping. On high DF cars like formula or LMP it's common to go even higher on slow damping (80 - 100%+).
A slow damping of 30% doesn't sound like "without compromising control" to me at all.

Asturbo
06-02-2019, 11:08
What tyres are you using?
If I remember correctly this car has problem with the slick tyres that I think was patched. But last time I checked, the fastest ones was still the sport tyres not the default slicks.

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 11:14
What tyres are you using?
If I remember correctly this car has problem with the slick tyres that I think was patched. But last time I've checked, the fastest ones was still the sport tyres not the slicks.

In TT they only get Slicks using Automatic by Weather. Every setup I checked uses this.

cpcdem
06-02-2019, 18:23
Guys, remember that real life and game are two different things. What works in game does not necessarily work in real life, too, and vice versa.

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 18:35
Guys, remember that real life and game are two different things. What works in game does not necessarily work in real life, too, and vice versa.

Say what?

Another challenge?:D

Go ahead and try that setup, I am interested in your thoughts. You think it's a Kramarsky?

cpcdem
06-02-2019, 18:44
Say what?

Another challenge?:D

Go ahead and try that setup, I am interested in your thoughts. You think it's a Kramarsky?

Possibly :). I am not good with the formula cars though, will need to practice a lot, so expect feedback many hours later :). Which setup is it, from who should I download it?

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 18:52
Possibly :). I am not good with the formula cars though, will need to practice a lot, so expect feedback many hours later :). Which setup is it, from who should I download it?

Hey it's cbrrider, also try Leynad's.
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cpcdem
06-02-2019, 21:31
OK, did a 34.6 in time trial in default setup, will now check the community event as well and play around with setups.

But, so far, I am with Cbrriderr on this. Obviously I have not raced many real Formula cars in my life, but drifting and going always sideways in and out of corners with a high downforce car feels very very wrong...

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 21:49
OK, did a 34.6 in time trial in default setup, will now check the community event as well and play around with setups.

But, so far, I am with Cbrriderr on this. Obviously I have not raced many real Formula cars in my life, but drifting and going always sideways in and out of corners with a high downforce car feels very very wrong...

Ok, that's a little quicker than the Default behind you as usual.:)

In the Event blackduckrun has the quickest Default and he is pretty good in other Events.

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 22:00
Oops, you now have the WR, another surprise.:D Sliding and drifting all over the place...
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cpcdem
06-02-2019, 22:05
Ok, that's a little quicker than the Default behind you as usual.:)

I think that's mainly because people believe it's the setups that make a big difference, so they start changing everything in the setup, until they eventually get used to the car and track and do good lap times. But that's due to the long practice they've put while trying their setup changes, I am sure in most cases people can do better lap times if they restart their setups from scratch. In the beginning I was 5 seconds of the pace a couple hours ago, but insisted there, trying to learn the car..

Of course not all setups are like that, some are really good, but usually IMO it's just a couple or 5-10 changes that are enough to bring it close to each person's and track's needs. Many times I've seen you mentioning the exact changes someone has done, when you post their setup, and I think this is extremely valuable, so people can review them and maybe decide which changes they want to keep and which not. And I also like that you warn people for example that they should not keep brake ducts closed during a race, because this will lead to problems, or that a diff setting is very aggressive, suggesting to tone it down a bit. I think you are helping a lot people to understand the setups you post, I wish everybody tries to do that at least.

cpcdem
06-02-2019, 22:06
Oops, you now have the WR, another surprise.:D Sliding and drifting all over the place...


Watch the replay, it should be fun watching the car going sideways all the time :). Btw, there's room for improvement, working on it...

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 22:18
Watch the replay, it should be fun watching the car going sideways all the time :). Btw, there's room for improvement, working on it...

Yeah I watched it. You had one corner, a left, that was iffy. I ran your run with the former WR holder. You lost a little time in sector 3 but had gapped him by half a second before that so yeah you can go quicker with more practice.:) So not a bad car without any adjustments after all.

From trackside it looks like you are just cruising around on a Sunday drive to church. I'll try different views.

Yeah from Chase cam that 1st left was bad. The only other slide was that first right up the hill where he was able to pull back a few tenths. Probably felt worse driving it than I can perceive watching it but good job keeping it together.

cpcdem
06-02-2019, 22:37
To me, it is enjoyable when you consider it a rallycross car (ok, a bit hyperbole!), because it needs similar driving style, constantly correcting out with counter steer while going through the corners. But when you remember it is a Formula car actually, well, it does not feel very right :)

Definitely not cruising, I guess the replay softens the rough edges, I'm sweating a lot right now and we're in the middle of the Winter :). There's a potential for a 34.0 for me in default, just can't get the drifting always right :)

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 23:25
To me, it is enjoyable when you consider it a rallycross car (ok, a bit hyperbole!), because it needs similar driving style, constantly correcting out with counter steer while going through the corners. But when you remember it is a Formula car actually, well, it does not feel very right :)

Definitely not cruising, I guess the replay softens the rough edges, I'm sweating a lot right now and we're in the middle of the Winter :). There's a potential for a 34.0 for me in default, just can't get the drifting always right :)

Hey, thanks so much for the help.:)

cpcdem
06-02-2019, 23:29
Done a 34.0 in time trial, so moved to the community event now. But here the conditions are very different, this is setup with a February date and track temps of 4C(!!!). This makes the car even more tail happy, no wonder why Cbrriderr had a problem with it. Will give it some try with default, but looks like it will need some setup changes to keep the tail a bit more planted...

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 23:46
Done a 34.0 in time trial, so moved to the community event now. But here the conditions are very different, this is setup with a February date and track temps of 4C(!!!). This makes the car even more tail happy, no wonder why Cbrriderr had a problem with it. Will give it some try with default, but looks like it will need some setup changes to keep the tail a bit more planted...

Yeah I think they use real weather so a bit chilly now, at least you don't have snow. Maybe Asturbo's Sport tires will be better.

cpcdem
06-02-2019, 23:53
Yeah I think they use real weather so a bit chilly now, at least you don't have snow. Maybe Asturbo's Sport tires will be better.

I gave them a try, but it's much worse with them. From what I remember, Sports being better than slicks for this car was a bug, which was fixed in one of the later patches.

blinkngone
06-02-2019, 23:58
I gave them a try, but it's much worse with them. From what I remember, Sports being better than slicks for this car was a bug, which was fixed in one of the later patches.

Ok, in rain I ran front toe -0.7 and rear +1.0, worked great. Even in Thunderstorms at Hockenheim. Similar temps.

How close are you to blackduckrun's Default run at 1:35.460 +0:01.857?

blinkngone
07-02-2019, 00:40
Ok, thanks for your TT efforts. At least the evidence is that the car in-game is not flawed and the Default Loose setup is usable. It is just difficult for the majority of drivers to get comfortable with.
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cpcdem
07-02-2019, 00:47
Ok, in rain I ran front toe -0.7 and rear +1.0, worked great. Even in Thunderstorms at Hockenheim. Similar temps.

How close are you to blackduckrun's Default run at 1:35.460 +0:01.857?

Around 3 tenths slower. There's room for improvement, but it's very difficult not to always lose it at some part of the track! I also gave a short test to the setups of the top guys, but it didn't seem to make things much better...Will give it a try again tomorrow, but the conditions for this event look very tricky...

cpcdem
07-02-2019, 00:50
Ok, thanks for your TT efforts. At least the evidence is that the car in-game is not flawed and the Default Loose setup is usable. It is just difficult for the majority of drivers to get comfortable with.


Usable yes, but to me it is flawed :). I would not expect a high downforce car to be so drifty and tail happy. Then of course, that might just be my own expectations, but SMS wanted to create a different car (it's fantasy anyway), which is fair enough.

blinkngone
07-02-2019, 01:27
Usable yes, but to me it is flawed :). I would not expect a high downforce car to be so drifty and tail happy. Then of course, that might just be my own expectations, but SMS wanted to create a different car (it's fantasy anyway), which is fair enough.

Well, maybe the expectations are flawed. The Formula C from PCars 1 is 13 seconds quicker than the Formula C in PCars 2, nearly matches times of the Formula Renault 3.5 in PCars 2 which is actually a high downforce car with over 500 hp. So maybe the performance is just in line where it should be based on the newer game.

According to the specs the Formula C 0 to 100 is 2.0 seconds and the Formula Renault is 2.9 seconds. So maybe it should be really slidy(tail happy) at low speed cornering when you try and get on the gas.
Maybe it's a misprint though. The 0 to 100 time would make it the quickest accelerating vehicle by far in PCars 2. Has to be a Glitch in specs. People have been complaining about the C since launch but some of the problems were addressed in patches. Maybe the rear tires are just too narrow, along with the track width too wide.
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blinkngone
07-02-2019, 17:36
I watched many TT runs in replay, examined setups. The setups are all over the place indicating just how uncomfortable people are driving this car. In the replays you don't get an idea of just how nervous the cars are to drive. I also watched youtube videos of the closest class I could find, the Formula 3. The F3s look very similar, kind of darty on exit. Anyway the best setup I have tried was Bealdor's. I went with more front downforce(21/18) than rear because I couldn't get the front end to grip on the cold track surface. Have not tried moving the weight balance more forward(43/57 is Default).
I went to 120 on preload because I don't have much control of my right foot and this seemed to make the transitions less abrupt(which upsets the chassis).
Track conditions I am using.
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couchflyer
09-02-2019, 18:26
Usable yes, but to me it is flawed :). I would not expect a high downforce car to be so drifty and tail happy. Then of course, that might just be my own expectations, but SMS wanted to create a different car (it's fantasy anyway), which is fair enough.

Perfectly stated.

blinkngone
12-02-2019, 11:36
Perfectly stated.
Yeah ok. Somehow Rinpoku managed to take the event with his mighty gamepad at a 1:33.119 .:eek:

cpcdem
12-02-2019, 16:33
Yeah ok. Somehow Rinpoku managed to take the event with his mighty gamepad at a 1:33.119 .:eek:

Even if it was a car with 3 bicycle wheels, somebody (one of the best guys again) would still top the charts anyway. But that doesn't mean the car makes sense :)

Keena
23-02-2019, 20:39
I think that's mainly because people believe it's the setups that make a big difference, so they start changing everything in the setup, until they eventually get used to the car and track and do good lap times. But that's due to the long practice they've put while trying their setup changes, I am sure in most cases people can do better lap times if they restart their setups from scratch. In the beginning I was 5 seconds of the pace a couple hours ago, but insisted there, trying to learn the car..

Of course not all setups are like that, some are really good, but usually IMO it's just a couple or 5-10 changes that are enough to bring it close to each person's and track's needs. Many times I've seen you mentioning the exact changes someone has done, when you post their setup, and I think this is extremely valuable, so people can review them and maybe decide which changes they want to keep and which not. And I also like that you warn people for example that they should not keep brake ducts closed during a race, because this will lead to problems, or that a diff setting is very aggressive, suggesting to tone it down a bit. I think you are helping a lot people to understand the setups you post, I wish everybody tries to do that at least.

I remember you and me having a conversation about a BMW that I'd spent ages mucking about with trying to get it feeling comfortable. You came along and beat me with the default and I realised afterward that I'd spent so long tinkering that I was never, as you say, learning the car. I just jumped in the Formula C this evening (coming to the end of my Ginetta Juniors career season and thinking about Formula C next so thought I'd refresh my sensations of it) with that conversation in mind and did a couple of laps using the default stable. 1st lap felt horrible, 2nd better, 3rd put me on the front page of the TT board- I cant remember what position exactly but I think about 7th?

Just goes to show.

As an aside I got VR as a Christmas present from my wife and after being inside the Ginetta Junior, sitting outside in that Formula C with the increase in speed was initially quite something. That's without the G forces, wind noise, real life consequences etc. I went back to the informative flavour of FFB from Jack Spades files as I was curious about its ability to change to stop clipping and Im really very impressed.

Even now it brings a big cheesy grin to my face when I jump in and hit the track. Thanks SMS guys and girls :)

cpcdem
24-02-2019, 11:16
Hey, glad you are enjoying VR! I may try it as well some day, although I am pretty sure I cannot handle it physically.

About setups, I've also had similar experiences, did not just come up with this conclusion out of nowhere. A couple years ago I started playing AC and got obsessed with doing hotlapping in Mugello with the Ferrari GT2, I was initially 5 seconds off pace and as almost everybody blamed that on my non-existing setup. So I started asking people for setup advice, did my own research etc etc, started heavily adjusting the setup and then at some point I was thinking I had made it almost perfect and was only fine tuning it being very happy about it, doing 1.50s, while I had started with 1.53s. Until one day I tried with default setup again and very soon I was able to do 1.49s with default...

Since then, I try to always have it in my mind that it's 95% practice that affects your speed and only the rest is setup work. Although some times it is hard to swallow when I try a new car that I may be several seconds of pace...but now, I simply insist with it, doing 20+ laps (or even many more) with it until I get the hang of it and become competitive, instead of messing with the setup. Only after I am very comfortable with the car, I may try setup adjustments to bring it closer to my liking. Except for the few cars in PCARS2 that have serious problems with default setups, but IMO those cars are very few.