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Lakiboom
02-03-2019, 14:40
We had a race yesterday at Circuit of Americas and our opinion: there are worst and unrealistic curbs at this track. At what tracks do you think it's bad too?

Zaskarspants
02-03-2019, 15:19
My impression is that the kerbs in the game vary, like real kerbs. The kerbs at cota are indeed steep high and serrated and it takes skill and nerve to cross some of them whilst navigating this circuits complex corners. Personally I love the challenge and the variability of the the kerbs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7X6kp71JJg&list=PLdgLGqlRYCRKqE0CR-EOQtNTIBCatjBiO&index=11

If you find the kerbs jolts too much reduce your FX, mine is unboosted at zero, and use the raw ffb setting as the other two can give an exaggerated kerb effect. With some cars you do need to be more careful than I am with the caterham, that car is great for taking risks with.

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 15:32
We had a race yesterday at Circuit of Americas and our opinion: there are worst and unrealistic curbs at this track. At what tracks do you think it's bad too?

I agree at COTA they are the absolute worst, you see videos of real races in this track and you try to follow the same lines with the same cars in the sim and it is simply impossible, the curbs suck you like they are black holes, such a huge immersion breaker and a big practical problem.

The same problem exists on many other tracks, but not that much and for the whole length of the track. First that comes to mind is Barcelona, especially those curbs at the corners of the middle sector and especially in the national configuration, you need a lot of luck to go through there. Mugello is also very bad, especially that final S, before the final corner, where it's like you are driving a boat, rather than a car, especially if you go there with a high downforce car. Hockenheim, especially that first corner etc etc etc....

Zaskarspants
02-03-2019, 15:51
In this video I am using a high df low ground clearance car and kerbing it with glee at cota. Black holes is complete hyperbole imho.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRwCMilvfbM&index=8&list=PLdgLGqlRYCRKMHmAAcO0nrgbG0UDwroMa&t=0s

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 15:56
Of course it is a hyperbole, I do not literally mean that they are that strong like black holes :)
But every single time you try to go over them on throttle, they suck the car in an extremely unrealistic way IMO.

Zaskarspants
02-03-2019, 16:18
Of course it is a hyperbole, I do not literally mean that they are that strong like black holes :)
But every single time you try to go over them on throttle, they suck the car in an extremely unrealistic way IMO.

Yes I realise that. I still think your description is not representative of the kerbing behaviour exemplified in the videos I have posted.

SPC4S4
02-03-2019, 16:42
Not necessarily without consequences, but I have been able to tone-down the car-tossing effects of some curbs (car / track combo dependent) by softening the fast bump. Perhaps more of a tip to be placed in the Car Setup forum, but maybe it will help those a bit who are struggling and frustrated from being tossed about in lousy fashion (whether authentic tossing or perceived as unrealistic).

sisollazzo
02-03-2019, 18:09
I have the same problem on this track and in Le Mans by the last two fast corners.
Does it depend from the set up?

Maskmagog
02-03-2019, 18:20
I have exactly zero experience from this IRL, but I thought this was interesting, by Ross Bentley (speedsecrets):

https://locktonmotorsports.com/get-charged/august-2015/using-the-curbs

This was also interesting:
https://oakmanonracing.wordpress.com/2015/08/30/how-to-use-curbing/

SPC4S4
02-03-2019, 19:00
I have the same problem on this track and in Le Mans by the last two fast corners.
Does it depend from the set up?

There are several factors that dictate how a car responds to curbs. Yes, setup is one factor but changing it alone won't wholly fix the problem. Ferrari 333 on Catalunya is a recent example that I have been working around. Sometimes I find that going to neutral throttle as I pass over the some curbs keeps me out of trouble. Not OFF throttle, NEUTRAL. Think about 20% throttle. You just need to experiment and adjust your car or your behavior with a certain curb as required on a case by case basis. If you avoid curbs entirely, you are certainly leaving a bunch of time on the table.

rich1e I
02-03-2019, 19:51
I have exactly zero experience from this IRL, but I thought this was interesting, by Ross Bentley (speedsecrets):

https://locktonmotorsports.com/get-charged/august-2015/using-the-curbs

This was also interesting:
https://oakmanonracing.wordpress.com/2015/08/30/how-to-use-curbing/

Very nice read! Although I can't confirm all these huge issues some are having with kerbs I just stay away from some. COTA T2 for instance. You can definitely ride it, but you have to fight it with the wheel, so I better stay away from it. T3, 4 and 5 are totally fine, you have to ride the kerbs there to have a good line and carry enough speed.
Mugello T8 is a killer so I just stay away from it. If I find myself turning in too early it really unsettles the car.
The only effect I find a little overdone is the sucking effect on corner exit, mostly at Laguna Seca and sometimes Monza and surely on other tracks that I can't remember now.
So the general rule is: Ride the kerbs you can ride and stay away from those that unsettle your car.

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 20:53
Yes I realise that. I still think your description is not representative of the kerbing behaviour exemplified in the videos I have posted.

I do not mean it in a bad way, but in the video you are sliding all over the place anyway (not saying something bad about your driving, I know you are very good - maybe it's just the car, with which I have zero experience), so it does not make any difference when the curbs cause you to slide as well. Not to mention that in most of the cases you are simply avoiding the curbs, while IRL cars attack every single one of them...

I stand by what I said, IMO curb behavior is unfortunately a sad aspect of how this sim works.

Sampo
02-03-2019, 21:33
During development, I seem to remember people talking about riding the curbs and when on throttle and having one of your rear tyres on the track and one on a curb that has less grip than the track, the tendency would be to skew the front of the car towards the outside of the track. I'm talking about RWD cars on exit curbs on the outside of the track of course.

I think the second link in Maskmagog's post is also a good read.

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 22:13
Guys, I think things are pretty simple. Simply watch a video (from an in-car camera) of any real life race at any track, but COTA in particular and notice how cars attack curbs at full throttle. GT3 cars for example. Now try to do the same in PCARS2 with the same cars and on the same curbs.

Maskmagog
02-03-2019, 22:51
With all respect cpcdem, I start to think that it's not that simple. Professional drivers in real life are just that, professional drivers, with a professionally setup car for that specific track and conditions. I am/have neither of those things. If you read my links, or surely others, it's clear that it's not just to attack the curbs. You need, at least in some cases, know how the car will react, and be prepared to counter and adjust, immediately. Skills that take a long time to learn. Countless hours in games that maybe not simulates all of these things properly might not count in that case.

I'm not saying curbs are perfect in PC2. I have questioned their behaviour many times. But I have to remember that I don't know how it is to do it IRL, or what it takes to do it in terms of skill and setup.

WGIstation6a
02-03-2019, 23:16
I have a league race at cota tomorrow. I was also having troubles with the curbing. Try raising the ride height some. That helped me a ton. It seemed I was bottoming the front out on the curb and getting pitched into oversteer. Also soften fast dampers both bump and rebounds some. I did have to firm up the slow dampers and bars a bit to try and stabilize the car while cornering.

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 23:21
With all respect cpcdem, I start to think that it's not that simple. Professional drivers in real life are just that, professional drivers, with a professionally setup car for that specific track and conditions. I am/have neither of those things. If you read my links, or surely others, it's clear that it's not just to attack the curbs. You need, at least in some cases, know how the car will react, and be prepared to counter and adjust, immediately. Skills that take a long time to learn. Countless hours in games that maybe not simulates all of these things properly might not count in that case.

I'm not saying curbs are perfect in PC2. I have questioned their behaviour many times. But I have to remember that I don't know how it is to do it IRL, or what it takes to do it in terms of skill and setup.

Exactly, this is why I suggested to watch a race from an on board camera, so you can see the steering and throttle input of the driver. As you will see, they make absolutely no correction whatsoever when riding the curbs. OK, I am sure you will find a few cases when the curbs are slippery so they did need to react, but those cases are the exceptions. In pCARS2, all RWD curbs always rotate wildly over the curbs (except for some curbs in some tracks).

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 23:24
I have a league race at cota tomorrow. I was also having troubles with the curbing. Try raising the ride height some. That helped me a ton. It seemed I was bottoming the front out on the curb and getting pitched into oversteer. Also soften fast dampers both bump and rebounds some. I did have to firm up the slow dampers and bars a bit to try and stabilize the car while cornering.

The same problem exist also with (RWD) road cars in the sim, which have high ride height. Yeah, I agree, you can find ways to make the effect less extreme, but I think it's most important to fix the problem in the physics, rather than making us try to find unrealistic setups to workaround this...

WGIstation6a
02-03-2019, 23:30
I’m not sure how raising the ride height a small amount to avoid bottoming out is unrealistic. Make it work or don’t. At this point the game is what it is.

Maskmagog
02-03-2019, 23:40
Exactly, this is why I suggested to watch a race from an on board camera, so you can see the steering and throttle input of the driver. As you will see, they make absolutely no correction whatsoever when riding the curbs. OK, I am sure you will find a few cases when the curbs are slippery so they did need to react, but those cases are the exceptions. In pCARS2, all RWD curbs always rotate wildly over the curbs (except for some curbs in some tracks).

I'll try to find some videos. But: remember I'm not claiming anything, I don't have the knowledge for that. I've never driven a race car at a race track. Read the links, they are not long. I thought they were interesting. Maybe you knew all this already, I didn't. You don't always get the full story when watching a driver at full speed. Sometimes things look easier than they are, that's all. And I don't mean that drivers do any big corrections, I'm talking micro adjustments.

cpcdem
02-03-2019, 23:52
I'll try to find some videos. But: remember I'm not claiming anything, I don't have the knowledge for that. I've never driven a race car at a race track. Read the links, they are not long. I thought they were interesting. Maybe you knew all this already, I didn't. You don't always get the full story when watching a driver at full speed. Sometimes things look easier than they are, that's all. And I don't mean that drivers do any big corrections, I'm talking micro adjustments.

Thanks for the links, I did read them and I found them interesting. I am not a real life racer either, I just like motorsports a lot, so watch races a lot, and after so many 100s or 1000s of hours watching onboard footage, I think it's pretty clear that most curbs in real life do not behave at all anything like they do in PCARS2. I assume what the guys talk about in your links about some curbs unsettling the car, is that you can get minor traction losses, but nothing that those huge rotations we get in the sim. Also I think they agree that drivers should generally always fully attack the "apex" curbs, which is exactly a no no in PCARS2. It is of course easy to find on board footage in youtube, just see how drivers go full throttle over the curbs, fully attacking them, and even when they have a large steering angle!

About the argument "the game is what it is", I get that unfortunately, I am just hoping that bringing those subjects up, will help making sure those problems do not remain in PCARS3 as well. I do not know what was happening in WMD, but seeing such a very big (IMO) problem for a sim existing in the end product after so much time of testing is very worrying. Always IMO.

Lakiboom
03-03-2019, 07:36
Just watch this video for example. Cars use this SS curbs and it looks stable. In PCars2 this curbs want to kill you every time. I know it can be dangerous IRL and not every corner. But in game at COTA it feels not right for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROznN5cxNAo

Zaskarspants
03-03-2019, 09:48
I do not mean it in a bad way, but in the video you are sliding all over the place anyway (not saying something bad about your driving, I know you are very good - maybe it's just the car, with which I have zero experience), so it does not make any difference when the curbs cause you to slide as well. Not to mention that in most of the cases you are simply avoiding the curbs, while IRL cars attack every single one of them...

I stand by what I said, IMO curb behavior is unfortunately a sad aspect of how this sim works.

Thanks for looking at my vids. I am avoiding some but clearly not all. Some of them have sausages of concrete and these are best avoided although the caterham can cope.

I read those links and the kerbing advice and decreased my latest tt time in stoopid challenges by following that advice, I felt the car behaved similarly to that described in the links above. As for skidding off kerbs, yes, it can be dicey but I am clearly using kerbs you say you cannot. The crazy driving is perhaps cos I am racing and trying to beat the AI at maximum, I am going at time trial speed and using lines that are risky. The caterham is a skiiidy fun car and I was very much on the ragged edge with the g54. In a slower car that is my most used, the g40, my racing is less crazy and still over the kerbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGOujT3zSu4&list=PLdgLGqlRYCRKYOQqs2OvQinRpIC4KCUBt&index=11

Forgive me if my memory fails me but the last time we were discussing this I suggested you try raw rather than informative to address you kerbing concerns and iirc you found that a very helpful change so I was surprised at your posts here. The way informative compresses the dynamics of the ffb can sometimes give inconsistent kerb feels in my experience.

cpcdem
03-03-2019, 12:21
Yes, thanks a lot for the suggestion to use raw, but that was for the overall FFB feel, it helped me a lot to get a consistent feel, while previously , due to the auto calibration of Informative, I could not get the Volume adjustment to give me a consistent result. Nothing to do with cerb behavior though.

In your video, you are again trying to avoid all the dangerous (not IRL, just game) curbs, and are using the National configuration, in which some of them are missing. Still, you do get plenty unrealistic car responses (sudden huge rotations) when you do attack them. A video is 10,000 words, why don't you just compare the behavior you are seeing with the real specific thing in action, rather that the generalized comments in the above links? The difference is so huge...

And yeah, actually I have also noticed that the GT5 does handle curbs a little better than other cars (edit: ignore that, I just tried it again, the GT5 handles curbs just as bad as every other RWD car in the game). And all FWD cars (in this game) handle them A LOT better, for the most part FWDs have zero problems with the curbs (except when braking, but that probably does make sense), which I think is a pretty god pointer that there's something going very wrong in the physics.

rich1e I
03-03-2019, 12:24
Just watch this video for example. Cars use this SS curbs and it looks stable. In PCars2 this curbs want to kill you every time. I know it can be dangerous IRL and not every corner. But in game at COTA it feels not right for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROznN5cxNAo

It seems to me that many different people experience different things when talking about a specific topic, for whatever reason. Saying that kerbs want to kill you all the time might be true in your and other cases, but not for me, so maybe you could provide a small video with you driving through these sections without forcing the effect to prove your point. Angle is a factor for instance. I can take the same lines through T3, 4 and 5 as people do IRL, kerbs are absolutely fine, so the issue is clearly subjective.

Zaskarspants
03-03-2019, 13:54
Cpdem, I have great respect for your expertise and value your input to the forum and have found many of your posts very useful but in this case I think we will have to just disagree and leave it there.

Edit, I used the national layout in the videos cos the g40 is slow and the straights get very long. It is an existing video not one done specifically for this thread, as were the others.

cpcdem
03-03-2019, 20:57
Hey, I never claimed to be an expert or anything, as I said I only say what I see in real life footage and compare it to what I see in the game. I did not imply you did the video in such a way to prove your point, on the contrary I think your video among other things proves well the point that curb behavior in pCARS2 is very unrealistic. Of course as always it's just my opinion and it is absolutely fine to disagree, even completely disagree as in this case :)

hkraft300
04-03-2019, 08:10
Cpcdem is really fast. I'm much slower and the kerbs don't hurt me quite as much. Could be that he's on the very limit and I'm not, so I have a little wiggle room to react.

Zaskarspants
04-03-2019, 10:46
Hey, I never claimed to be an expert or anything, as I said I only say what I see in real life footage and compare it to what I see in the game. I did not imply you did the video in such a way to prove your point, on the contrary I think your video among other things proves well the point that curb behavior in pCARS2 is very unrealistic. Of course as always it's just my opinion and it is absolutely fine to disagree, even completely disagree as in this case :)

No don't worry, I didn't think you thought that, I added the note just for clarity for everyone. And still I respectfully disagree. My vids show that hitting kerbs is not without risks but those risks can clearly be taken successfully, with a range of cars. Kerbs vary, car behaviour varies and we all bring our own style and expectations into the mix, often as non race drivers so personal subjective experience of the game varies. Fwiw I also think that irl videos do compare well with pcars vids.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 11:36
Cpcdem is really fast. I'm much slower and the kerbs don't hurt me quite as much. Could be that he's on the very limit and I'm not, so I have a little wiggle room to react.

This is no argument as he can't carry so much more speed from T1 to T5 at COTA than others. The difference in speed between a good and bad exit is irrelevant for a potential issue with riding the kerbs there imo.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 12:31
No don't worry, I didn't think you thought that, I added the note just for clarity for everyone. And still I respectfully disagree. My vids show that hitting kerbs is not without risks but those risks can clearly be taken successfully, with a range of cars. Kerbs vary, car behaviour varies and we all bring our own style and expectations into the mix, often as non race drivers so personal subjective experience of the game varies. Fwiw I also think that irl videos do compare well with pcars vids.

But, in your video, you are simply avoiding the problematic curbs! Turns 2 to 6, you simply do not attack them, probably subconsciously, because you know that if you attack them, you will have big trouble. This is not the racing line people drive in real races, in real life they do attack every single one of those curbs, just watch Lakiboom's video, or any other footage from this track you can find.

Still, a few times you did attack them and got the behavior you got at 1:24 or 3:52, what does that have to do with reality?

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 12:57
Cpcdem is really fast. I'm much slower and the kerbs don't hurt me quite as much. Could be that he's on the very limit and I'm not, so I have a little wiggle room to react.

Get any GT3 car in Mugello, do not worry about going fast in most of the lap, just go full throttle in the last S, before the final corner. Doesn't the car have the behavior of a boat as it hits the curbs? If you were in a real race car and got this behavior, wouldn't you describe it as "the car is trying to kill me"?

Zaskarspants
04-03-2019, 13:06
But, in your video, you are simply avoiding the problematic curbs! Turns 2 to 6, you simply do not attack them, probably subconsciously, because you know that if you attack them, you will have big trouble. This is not the racing line people drive in real races, in real life they do attack every single one of those curbs, just watch Lakiboom's video, or any other footage from this track you can find.

Still, a few times you did attack them and got the behavior you got at 1:24 or 3:52, what does that have to do with reality?

I accept you have a different reading of this. On the last thread where this was debated iirc many videos were posted and people on both sides of the debate saw their arguments vindicated often by the same video. We all experience the game differently as I suggested above so perhaps we should leave it there.

Ps, I would love to see you on the stoopid time trials as we can't race together online with me being Xbox.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 13:13
I accept you have a different reading of this. On the last thread where this was debated iirc many videos were posted and people on both sides of the debate saw their arguments vindicated often by the same video. We all experience the game differently as I suggested above so perhaps we should leave it there.


Just to be clear about this, with which part(s) of my previous post do you disagree? Weren't you avoiding the curbs? Don't real life race cars attack them? Didn't you get an unrealistic response the few times you did attack them?



Ps, I would love to see you on the stoopid time trials as we can't race together online with me being Xbox.

Problem with TT challenges set up by others, is that they are very rarely using car/track combos that I enjoy. We can always pick a combo we both like and try it, the PC leaderboards are public, for your time I will believe you! :) We used to do that a few times with other forumers here in the past.

hkraft300
04-03-2019, 13:43
This is no argument as he can't carry so much more speed from T1 to T5 at COTA than others. The difference in speed between a good and bad exit is irrelevant for a potential issue with riding the kerbs there imo.

Just a hypothesis. However A few km/h difference in speed exponentially increases the loading of the tires. So, although he may not me carrying that much more speed, he may very well be on the edge of grip and myself far from it.


Get any GT3 car in Mugello, do not worry about going fast in most of the lap, just go full throttle in the last S, before the final corner. Doesn't the car have the behavior of a boat as it hits the curbs? If you were in a real race car and got this behavior, wouldn't you describe it as "the car is trying to kill me"?

Some kerbs need to be avoided like irl.
Some kerbs that can be hit irl can't be attacked in a sim because of the lack of the physical g-force experienced by the sim racer which limits his/her judgement of the car movement - assuming the kerb is replicated accurately.
Also I use different suspension tuning from default so that has to be a factor.

hkraft300
04-03-2019, 13:46
You could drive over any kerb if you're driving slow enough :glee:
Maybe you're driving too bloody fast to take so much kerb :p

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 13:55
No disrespect here, cpcdem, I disagree with most things you say. I've said this over the last 2 or 3 pages and I can repeat it: I have no issues with riding the kerbs at COTA and taking the same lines as IRL. Also, Maskmagog posted 2 links that explain how bad kerbs can unsettle racecars IRL, even to the point of breaking the suspension. You keep repeating your stuff regardless of the proof provided and keep saying things that are simply not true. Drivers attack the kerbs IRL, I can attack them too and I'm no alien whatsoever, so why can't you take the same lines?

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 14:00
Just a hypothesis. However A few km/h difference in speed exponentially increases the loading of the tires. So, although he may not me carrying that much more speed, he may very well be on the edge of grip and myself far from it.



Some kerbs need to be avoided like irl.
Some kerbs that can be hit irl can't be attacked in a sim because of the lack of the physical g-force experienced by the sim racer which limits his/her judgement of the car movement - assuming the kerb is replicated accurately.
Also I use different suspension tuning from default so that has to be a factor.

First racing video that shows up when I search for "GT3 Mugello":

https://youtu.be/9jc0U4zUMhw?t=162

Only thing you can notice, is that the car loses a bit of traction, so loses some acceleration when going over the curbs, the "destabilization" mentioned in some previous links. And notice how he goes full attack, full throttle. Now try doing this in PCARS2, what you get is an instant extreme rotation of the car, for which you must be ready to catch it with counter steering, as if you were driving rally cars...Of course in the real life video you see no counter steering at all. If curbs in real life behaved as in PCARS2, there would not be any race drivers still alive...

hkraft300
04-03-2019, 14:06
Full attack, full throttle but How's his suspension setup? Steering angle?
Kerbs are used to rotate the car irl. If you anticipate the rotation you can catch the "spin" and let the kerb turn the car for you with minimal steering. Like I mentioned before if you take the kerb wrong, irl you have the real g-force pants feel to catch/correct.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 14:21
Full attack, full throttle but How's his suspension setup? Steering angle?
Kerbs are used to rotate the car irl. If you anticipate the rotation you can catch the "spin" and let the kerb turn the car for you with minimal steering. Like I mentioned before if you take the kerb wrong, irl you have the real g-force pants feel to catch/correct.

I just posted a video with a full race, please tell me when do you see a noticeable extra rotation when the driver fully attacks the curbs at full speed? No matter how hard he hits the curbs and how deep he goes on them...

Lakiboom
04-03-2019, 14:29
Just compare curbs in AC or RRE. They are so much better you can use them without fear. In Pcars2 curbs (ok, not all) like mud that pulls you inside at any conditions. You can say it's all about your setup, speed and etc. But no, it doesn't feel right.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 14:36
Just compare curbs in AC or RRE. They are so much better you can use them without fear. In Pcars2 curbs (ok, not all) like mud that pulls you inside at any conditions. You can say it's all about your setup, speed and etc. But no, it doesn't feel right.

The thing is that one can tell you that the other sims are wrong and PCARS2 is right...For this reason I think it's always better to compare directly with real life instead!

Twinz
04-03-2019, 15:46
Maybe it's because I have no RL experience riding curbs so I had no specific expectations going in, but all the negative effects I have experienced in PC2 whilst curb-riding have "made sense" to me.

Some curbs are obviously built in a way to discourage being ridden and are very unsettling to go over while others are shaped flatter and smoother...but still covered in paint, and predictably slippery compared to bare asphalt.

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 15:49
I watched the Challenge races from 2018 at COTA and didn't notice curb problems in the various classes either. Most of the not contact spins were turn 1 and 10 unrelated to curb contact. Heck they even gave the cars a pass to run as much of the curbs as they wanted turns 13 through 18 and many of them did.
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Zaskarspants
04-03-2019, 15:53
Just compare curbs in AC or RRE. They are so much better you can use them without fear. In Pcars2 curbs (ok, not all) like mud that pulls you inside at any conditions. You can say it's all about your setup, speed and etc. But no, it doesn't feel right.

I don't like playing off Sims against eachother as it looks a bit devisive and can just cause partisan bickering but I suggest that any sim that allows kerbing "without fear" would be less exciting and not as accurate.

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 16:10
I don't like playing off Sims against eachother as it looks a bit devisive and can just cause partisan bickering but I suggest that any sim that allows kerbing "without fear" would be less exciting and not as accurate.

Yeah and we have pretty much beaten the COTA problems to death in another thread. On the other hand we are in for a long wait before the next SMS game is released so we might as well continue the debate to avoid boredom.:D

The cockpit view I saw shows the cars mostly going in the mid 50s mph range over the curbs after turn 6 and even slowing to the 40s at the entrance to turn 10 before the bump. The cars in game appear to be much faster than real life(only 90s on the back straight) which could contribute to the issues people have with the curbs. The curbs are painted but they appear to have plenty of rubber built up on them to the point where there is almost solid black rubber strips covering the paint after numerous laps.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 17:00
I decided to take the Bentley to COTA as it has been a very successful weekend for the brand and show that you can ride kerbs there. Tyres are stone cold and I feel I could've straight lined even more through T3, 4 and 5 so I took them at a terrible angle. Normally there are also huge yellow sausage kerbs there to make sure that people don't cut too much which we don't even have there. You definitely find one at the penultimate corner, right at the apex, so we're being lucky already actually :p

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e-i/video/70513335

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 17:56
Um ok, people are just talking past each other. If I try and use the curbs just enough to avoid a penalty some curbs push me inside forcing me to miss the next turn. If I go way over accepting the penalty no problem.
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If I take the penalty no problem.
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See what kind of lap time you can run by using the curbs without penalties in TT. I would like to try following your Ghost.

Juxtapuh
04-03-2019, 18:15
y'all should be happy the don't have the turtles too!

*edit (addendum)
I've talked a guy that has actually driven the track and he states that without the turtles there he would drive the curbs as part of the track as this section of track (3,4,5) is very important to getting a good lap time

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 18:32
y'all should be happy the don't have the turtles too!

*edit (addendum)
I've talked a guy that has actually driven the track and he states that without the turtles there he would drive the curbs as part of the track as this section of track (3,4,5) is very important to getting a good lap time

Yeah they(Turtles) would eventually cause your suspension to fail if you make a mistake. Possibly why we don't have them in game. That said it's almost going back to the penalty discussion gain. The Challenge cars don't have to deal with the PCars 2 penalties.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 18:32
And it is not only COTA where we have this problem in PCARS2, it's more or less in all the tracks, cars have this behavior over a lot of curbs. It's just more extreme in COTA.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 18:46
I decided to take the Bentley to COTA as it has been a very successful weekend for the brand and show that you can ride kerbs there. Tyres are stone cold and I feel I could've straight lined even more through T3, 4 and 5 so I took them at a terrible angle. Normally there are also huge yellow sausage kerbs there to make sure that people don't cut too much which we don't even have there. You definitely find one at the penultimate corner, right at the apex, so we're being lucky already actually :p

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e-i/video/70513335

But you go off-throttle, sometimes completely, when you are riding the curbs!!! Of course this way you will have no problem with them. But this way you will be 5 seconds off the pace and of course this is absolutely not what people are doing in real life.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 19:35
Are we moving the goal posts now? I'm going too slow? This is ridiculous. The statement was, you can't ride the kerbs because they want to kill you all the time, and that is not true. In the important section, T3 - T5, I hit the kerbs at reasonable speed, almost 200 km/h to be precise. Of course you have to slow down there a little bit, nobody goes flat out through there. The rest was just additional to show that you actually can ride the kerbs, which you are denying here.

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 20:05
Yeah I have watched some TT runs at the same sections, similar to your run, a 2:05.420 WR in the Bentley so not slow. The curb I had problems with was turn 2 but I noticed no one else had used this curb so most likely my fault for not knowing the track.
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cpcdem
04-03-2019, 20:10
Are we moving the goal posts now? I'm going too slow? This is ridiculous. The statement was, you can't ride the kerbs because they want to kill you all the time, and that is not true. In the important section, T3 - T5, I hit the kerbs at reasonable speed, almost 200 km/h to be precise. Of course you have to slow down there a little bit, nobody goes flat out through there. The rest was just additional to show that you actually can ride the kerbs, which you are denying here.

No, you missed the point, what I am saying is that the car behavior over curbs is unrealistic. In real life, drivers go over the curbs at full throttle, I mentioned this a dozen times in this thread, and they can ride them this way just fine, you can watch it in the real life footage shown in this thread. In PCARS2 you cannot do that, or if you do, you must be on your toes to catch up an unrealistic slide with unrealistic counter steering. What you showed, is that if you ride the curbs in a non-realistic (from a racing POV) way, you can avoid the problems. I am sorry but it is you who moved the goal posts.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 20:14
Ford GT LM GTE. At race pace. This is actually what people are doing IRL. What you're claiming is just not true, again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4BUqLF8Rzo

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 20:22
No, you missed the point, what I am saying is that the car behavior over curbs is unrealistic. In real life, drivers go over the curbs at full throttle, I mentioned this a dozen times in this thread, and they can ride them this way just fine, you can watch it in the real life footage shown in this thread. In PCARS2 you cannot do that, or if you do, you must be on your toes to catch up an unrealistic slide with unrealistic counter steering. What you showed, is that if you ride the curbs in a non-realistic (from a racing POV) way, you can avoid the problems. I am sorry but it is you who moved the goal posts.

You're just repeating the same stuff over and over again, although links have been posted, gameplay footage and real life videos. Impossible to have a conversation that way. I realized that some time ago already. I guess I'm out again.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 20:23
I will ignore your again personal insulting tone and will say that the only reason he is not going full throttle all the time, is that because he is in a sequence of Ses, where you cannot go full throttle all the time obviously, not because of the curbs. Watch the Mugello video instead, for a case where they do go full throttle. And what you did in the video, is to completely lift off the gas in most of the apexes, which is clearly very different to what is happening in real life. Watch also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbkxuOUlbCQ, is that anything close to your video?

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 20:26
I will ignore your again personal insulting tone and will say that the only reason he is not going full throttle all the time, is that because he is in a sequence of Ses, where you cannot go full throttle all the time obviously, not because of the curbs. Watch the Mugello video instead, for a case where they do go full throttle. And what you did in the video, is to completely lift off the gas in most of the apexes, which is clearly very different to what is happening in real life. Watch also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbkxuOUlbCQ, is that anything close to your video?

Hey, I watched a video of the Ferrari GTE and he was definitely part throttle through 3,4 and 5. Off or no more than 3 Green LEDS.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 20:34
And of course, I'm being the aggressor again with my 'personal insulting tone', wherever you may find it. Please moderators, save this guy, he's a victim.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 20:45
Yeah they(Turtles) would eventually cause your suspension to fail if you make a mistake. Possibly why we don't have them in game. That said it's almost going back to the penalty discussion gain. The Challenge cars don't have to deal with the PCars 2 penalties.

Do they actually call those yellow kerbs turtles? I said sausages, not sure if that's the right term.

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 21:28
I will again ignore your insults because something useful may come out of this. You are right, the Bentley in the game does handle the curbs way better than the other GT3 cars. I just tried it in Mugello and I can ride through that final S with no major issues. In COTA, sometimes I get than instant rotation, sometimes not, but in general it is night and day compared to other cars (even when I do use throttle while cornering). Another car that felt handling curbs better is the BWM M6, but not in Bentley levels. Cars like the Audi, Lambo etc are the usual nightmares.

I do not know if you already knew about the Bentley standing out from other cars, but I am wondering what is special about it, making it handle curbs better. Possibly the weight distribution? I will test with a few more heavier cars (apart from GT3s) to see if I can spot a pattern.

hkraft300
04-03-2019, 22:37
But are you doing real race car speeds or faster?
With an unloaded inside wheel and a locked-enough diff, when the inside wheel lifts you'll get rotation towards the inside of the corner. Like torque vectoring.
Bentley suspension is softer iirc I'll check jussi's calculator and get back on that.

rich1e I
04-03-2019, 22:49
That is, again, very generous of you to ignore those repeated imaginary insults. Thank you.
Try doing unrealistic things and soften the suspension, and maybe also increase ride height. I heard that in an alternative universe teams do that to deal with kerbs.

hkraft300
04-03-2019, 22:51
Bentley (according to Jussi's calc) has front and rear springs at 300 front 140 rear (3.08Hz and 2.98Hz). Slow damping is at 76% and fast damping ~60%.
Audi LMS with 220 f+r springs default is ~4Hz and 3.3Hz. Same frequency as the 488 (with 280f 180r springs).
Lamborghini is at 4.2 and 3.6 Hz (220f/270r springs).

Have you tried kerb smashing the McLaren, Acura or Ginetta?

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 22:54
Do they actually call those yellow kerbs turtles? I said sausages, not sure if that's the right term.

Both of us are correct, isn't that great for a change?:D You are correct in that there is a sausage style curb barrier at the corner you described earlier as well as one other. These are the elongated type that the cars can actually jump without severe consequences. The Turtles that are on the real track through 3, 4 and 5 will actually cause you damage if you directly hit them. I have only seen the K-PAX Bentley driver nudge one a little once but he didn't take a direct hit.

The other sausage style curb we have in game.
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The Turtles on the real track are something like these we have in the game except the real ones are raised up over 6 additional inches through 3,4 and 5.
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rich1e I
04-03-2019, 23:03
Lamborghini. Same(ish) lines as IRL. Impossible he said, and that's wrong.

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e-i/video/70538179

Edit:
Yep blink, I saw that Bentley on 2 wheels, he had to straighten the wheel and go straight trough that S section, otherwise he would've spun.

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 23:29
Bentley (according to Jussi's calc) has front and rear springs at 300 front 140 rear (3.08Hz and 2.98Hz). Slow damping is at 76% and fast damping ~60%.
Audi LMS with 220 f+r springs default is ~4Hz and 3.3Hz. Same frequency as the 488 (with 280f 180r springs).
Lamborghini is at 4.2 and 3.6 Hz (220f/270r springs).

Have you tried kerb smashing the McLaren, Acura or Ginetta?

I tried with the 650 S and spun if I missed just a little bit, Default Loose

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 23:34
Bentley (according to Jussi's calc) has front and rear springs at 300 front 140 rear (3.08Hz and 2.98Hz). Slow damping is at 76% and fast damping ~60%.
Audi LMS with 220 f+r springs default is ~4Hz and 3.3Hz. Same frequency as the 488 (with 280f 180r springs).
Lamborghini is at 4.2 and 3.6 Hz (220f/270r springs).

Have you tried kerb smashing the McLaren, Acura or Ginetta?

They seem to be somewhere in between the Audi/Lambo and the Bentley. I do not know if the available options for suspension in the Bentley are wide enough, but I tried max and min settings and it did not seem to make a noticeable difference for our matter. The Diff did though, when I put the power ramp to lower than 35, it started feeling like the other cars over curbs. At 20, it was quite bad. Also the opposite is true, when I put the power ramp at 90, the problematic cars improve a lot, too. But I do not think it's really a solution doing that, not to mention that AFAIK real GT3 cars do not have such adjustable diff.

Also TC helps, if you put it to High and to the default (10%) or less slip allowance, the situation improves as well. Of course this slows you down a lot everywhere else, so you'd need to enabled disable it on the fly, depending on if you are close to those curbs or not. And there are a lot of cars in the game with no TC...

In order to make it more straightforward, I did some testing also in Mugello, where it is simple, you exit out of the previous corner, and it's plain full throttle through the S, till the last corner of the lap. The Bentley in default setup is 95% just fine through there. All they very heavy cars/trucks in the game are fine as well. Lambo/Audi, you need to be prepared to catch the slide. A few times you can make it with no issue, then you try to do the same thing again, and it is like a boat now. Obviously there are a lot of factors into this, has to do with exactly how you hit the apex, with the car itself etc etc, so it is not a simple fix, but IMO it's very important to somehow fix it. In real life footage, (all) cars drive over those same curbs (every single time), with no issue.

supremedk
04-03-2019, 23:36
since the Bentleys are on topic and i am a mechanic on the #9 KPAX Bentley i will chime in on some of the real world stuff we experience at COTA. I can never seem to get into a rhythm there in PC2 so i rarely drive it. As me mentioned we just raced there this past weekend and i will post a link to the race replay so you can see some of what i mention. The drivers will use as much of the kerbs there as they can get away with, wether it be a track limits violation call or the "sausage" or "apex" kerbs being the proverbial smack on the hand.

On the last right hander in the esses there are no apex kerbs and you will see most drivers with their entire cars into the paint, no wheels on the "racing surface" and it doesn't upset the cars, and for some reason doesn't get a track limits call from race control. We tune the high speed compression on the dampers to not upset the car so the kerbs can be used at cota, and at other circuits that have useable kerbs.

The Apex and exit "sausages" were responsible for destroying 3 engines this event. At 1:31.00 into the race replay they show Wolf henzler launch his car off the turn 1 exit kerbs, this cracked the engine case in two and cracked the gearbox as well. same thing happened to one of the Wright Motorsports cars on thurs practice and it happened to our car in a private test a few days prior to the event, those things can be gnarly when taken wrong!!!

so im not sure why the game kerbs affect the car that much when in real life its more the "sausage" kerbs that do.

if you go to 1:22.xx in the replay you can see me in action operating the wheel gun on the #9 cars pit stop. don't make fun of how i pranced across the front, i need to fix that, LOL


https://sportscar365.com/features/videos/cota-race-1-replay/

cpcdem
04-03-2019, 23:46
Haha, come on, be honest about it, you run across in front of the camera twice just for the publicity, right? :)

Thanks for your info! So what changes are you doing regarding better managing the curbs? Dampers only, or does the traction control or diff settings actually play a role as well? Btw, what diff changes are possible IRL?
Also which tracks do you guys consider hard on the curbs?

blinkngone
04-03-2019, 23:54
Hi, are these "sausages"? I see drivers running over these a lot. Meh you are right, Henzler caught these completely wrong and it sent him flying across the track. There are gouges all over them but also rubber so maybe luck is also necessary.
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supremedk
05-03-2019, 00:15
I'm just a mechanic so I'm not in the debriefs with the drivers/engineers ,so I'm not sure how much emphasis is put on the kerbs. But, i feel i can safely say that set up I.E. spring rate,cambers etc are all mostly for the handling of the car. if we can't manage the kerbs with dampers we will try to minimize their use because its just slowing you down.We keep an eye on the floors for bottoming and kerb strikes, sometimes we need to raise the car(ride height) if its too much. Cota is pretty smooth so the high speed compression adj isn't used a ton so you can tune it to the kerbs without too much affect on the rest of the handling.
We can adjust the diff preload externally and we can adjust the face count by removing it. We actually don't adjust the diff all that much, there is a working window we try to keep it in that works well at most places, and TC is the same unless its wet, there is a window that works pretty well, you may grab a few clicks here and there. Brake bias is a pretty active adjustment, always changing with tire wear, fuel burn, especially on the Porsche which holds the fuel above the front axle.

Watkins Glen has a few kerbs that are steep and will bounce the car out if you try to get too aggressive, i will think on that and see if i can remember more.

blinkngone
05-03-2019, 00:26
since the Bentleys are on topic and i am a mechanic on the #9 KPAX Bentley i will chime in on some of the real world stuff we experience at COTA. I can never seem to get into a rhythm there in PC2 so i rarely drive it. As me mentioned we just raced there this past weekend and i will post a link to the race replay so you can see some of what i mention. The drivers will use as much of the kerbs there as they can get away with, wether it be a track limits violation call or the "sausage" or "apex" kerbs being the proverbial smack on the hand.

On the last right hander in the esses there are no apex kerbs and you will see most drivers with their entire cars into the paint, no wheels on the "racing surface" and it doesn't upset the cars, and for some reason doesn't get a track limits call from race control. We tune the high speed compression on the dampers to not upset the car so the kerbs can be used at cota, and at other circuits that have useable kerbs.

The Apex and exit "sausages" were responsible for destroying 3 engines this event. At 1:31.00 into the race replay they show Wolf henzler launch his car off the turn 1 exit kerbs, this cracked the engine case in two and cracked the gearbox as well. same thing happened to one of the Wright Motorsports cars on thurs practice and it happened to our car in a private test a few days prior to the event, those things can be gnarly when taken wrong!!!

so im not sure why the game kerbs affect the car that much when in real life its more the "sausage" kerbs that do.

if you go to 1:22.xx in the replay you can see me in action operating the wheel gun on the #9 cars pit stop. don't make fun of how i pranced across the front, i need to fix that, LOL


https://sportscar365.com/features/videos/cota-race-1-replay/

Congrats to you and your team! Are you working both in IMSA and Challenge racing now?

cpcdem
05-03-2019, 00:33
Oh, that's very interesting, because in game the curbs of Watknis are very easy to ride, at least 90% of them! Many thanks for stepping in, fantastic to hear all that stuff from the "inside", while ourselves we obviously mostly speculate on how things work, watching and reading from here and there. Please step in more often, and for myself, when you read I am saying something technically stupid, please do correct me. Wish you all the best success with your team and career, I am sure many of us here totally envy you! :)

rich1e I
05-03-2019, 10:13
since the Bentleys are on topic and i am a mechanic on the #9 KPAX Bentley i will chime in on some of the real world stuff we experience at COTA. I can never seem to get into a rhythm there in PC2 so i rarely drive it. As me mentioned we just raced there this past weekend and i will post a link to the race replay so you can see some of what i mention. The drivers will use as much of the kerbs there as they can get away with, wether it be a track limits violation call or the "sausage" or "apex" kerbs being the proverbial smack on the hand.

On the last right hander in the esses there are no apex kerbs and you will see most drivers with their entire cars into the paint, no wheels on the "racing surface" and it doesn't upset the cars, and for some reason doesn't get a track limits call from race control. We tune the high speed compression on the dampers to not upset the car so the kerbs can be used at cota, and at other circuits that have useable kerbs.

The Apex and exit "sausages" were responsible for destroying 3 engines this event. At 1:31.00 into the race replay they show Wolf henzler launch his car off the turn 1 exit kerbs, this cracked the engine case in two and cracked the gearbox as well. same thing happened to one of the Wright Motorsports cars on thurs practice and it happened to our car in a private test a few days prior to the event, those things can be gnarly when taken wrong!!!

so im not sure why the game kerbs affect the car that much when in real life its more the "sausage" kerbs that do.

if you go to 1:22.xx in the replay you can see me in action operating the wheel gun on the #9 cars pit stop. don't make fun of how i pranced across the front, i need to fix that, LOL


https://sportscar365.com/features/videos/cota-race-1-replay/

Huge congratulations on a stellar weekend, man! First ever win for the Gen2 Bentley. I hope you recovered from all the champagne ^^ Regarding your performance in front of the camera: It was just an 8/10 but not too bad :p
Having someone from the K-PAX team on forums is truly awesome. I have to say, the Bentley is one of my favourites, in-game (although it's the first gen) and IRL. Unfortunately the digital Bentley has never been top tier. It got a weight reduction once because it was light years off-pace, but it's still not where it should be, unfortunately.

supremedk
05-03-2019, 14:26
Thanks guys!! its quite a turn around from last season, we wrote off two chassis in the first 3 races. If you search Alvaro Parente st pete crash and Alvaro Parente VIR crash you can see them.

I do also work in IMSA for RISI Competitizione, although we just released yesterday the fact that we are pulling out of Sebring due to BOP concerns and Ferrari not wanting their factory drivers doing double duty on that IMSA/WEC double header weekend. That stinks, especially after our P2 Daytona finish(even though it was rain aided).

I did manage to find a new IMSA gig with Precision Performance Motorsports, they are a new GTD Lamborghini team, Daytona was their first event, so this will be their first Sebring, we shall see how it goes.

I don't want to hijack this thread, you guys had a pretty good conversation going. I am more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences, feel free to DM!!

My SN in game is SLOWLEAK, add me and lets have a race!! I'm always looking for a fun clean race when Im home and I'm on constantly!!!

rich1e I
05-03-2019, 17:43
Thanks guys!! its quite a turn around from last season, we wrote off two chassis in the first 3 races. If you search Alvaro Parente st pete crash and Alvaro Parente VIR crash you can see them.

Last weekend's podiums and wins will surely wing the whole team and hopefully lead to more success. It could be a good season because, if there's such a thing as a 'cosmic budget' for bad luck, Soucek has pretty much consumed it during the Bathurst 12hr, for all drivers together. ^^

bradleyland
05-03-2019, 19:26
The only effect I find a little overdone is the sucking effect on corner exit, mostly at Laguna Seca and sometimes Monza and surely on other tracks that I can't remember now.

Road America.

I find the curbs at Road America laughably inaccurate. Watch this 2012 IMSA race ending at Road America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25XMZ8LZ5Wk

They are all over the curbs. Try taking that line in an LMP2 car in pCARS 2. Good luck.

bradleyland
05-03-2019, 19:39
Hi, are these "sausages"? I see drivers running over these a lot. Meh you are right, Henzler caught these completely wrong and it sent him flying across the track. There are gouges all over them but also rubber so maybe luck is also necessary.
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That's one type. The other type runs around the radius of the inner curb. Here's one at Circuit de la Sarthe:

https://cdn-8.motorsport.com/static/img/amp/400000/450000/456000/456600/456602/s6_107049/lemans-24-hours-of-le-mans-2014-the-new-kerb-at-ford-chicane.jpg

Red Leader
05-03-2019, 20:11
Road America.

I find the curbs at Road America laughably inaccurate. Watch this 2012 IMSA race ending at Road America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25XMZ8LZ5Wk

They are all over the curbs. Try taking that line in an LMP2 car in pCARS 2. Good luck.

+1

The curbs can be outright spastic. Nearly all tracks have that problem but it's severe at Road America.

And yes, it's definitely problematic in LMP2s, you really have to avoid touching them or risk immediate spins/crashes.

rich1e I
05-03-2019, 22:51
That's one type. The other type runs around the radius of the inner curb. Here's one at Circuit de la Sarthe:

https://cdn-8.motorsport.com/static/img/amp/400000/450000/456000/456600/456602/s6_107049/lemans-24-hours-of-le-mans-2014-the-new-kerb-at-ford-chicane.jpg

Would be awesome if we had all these 'little' sausage kerbs and all the rest at Le Mans, especially at the Ford chicane, because we have nothing there, just a flat something that invites people to eat too much of it.

Road America is not even second or third track that'd come to my mind when speaking of corner exit kerbs because they're really thin and you can't really ride them. At the last corner the kerb on the exit is so small, once you hit it and don't steer away from it you're pretty much finding yourself cutting the gras there. Not very accurate, but it's fine with me. Ian said it himself, track accuracy could've been better in many cases.

I think most people don't want to adapt their driving, same with the penalty system. I know that kerb at the last corner at Road America is terrible so I try to avoid it. If you can't avoid it it's still possible to 'fight' the kerb with the wheel. In that particular case the kerb might be off, but kerbs can spin you around if you just floor it as if there was no tomorrow. Basically Road America is not very accurate, still fun but not accurate, it's just the SMS' version of the track and in that version the kerbs are just like that. That's the way I see it. If you take RL as a reference all the time and complain that things just aren't like that or like that, you can basically throw your PC or console out of the window because this is simracing, compromises have to be made. If you expect SMS to laserscan all of their locations and track variations and get every single detail right, then that's a bit naive in my view, with all the respect.

I think we have a great variety in PC2 and in many cases the tracks are good enough and actually quite accurate, apart from the kerbs of course ;)
We have tracks where all the major GT series take place. IMSA, WEC, Blancpain GT Series, Intercontinental GT Challenge, British GT, ADAC GT Masters, Indycar, NASCAR and I'm sure I forgot a few. That's quite something.

cpcdem
06-03-2019, 00:15
I agree, and if the physics of the game improved, too, giving a somewhat realistic behavior of cars over curbs, that would be even more awesome!

hkraft300
06-03-2019, 02:47
McLaren F1 at its first year of le mans, during the pre-race practice, bent its front control arms riding on the kerbs. McLaren shipped out overnight reinforced control arms or the cars could not have survived the race.

Bealdor
06-03-2019, 11:30
They seem to be somewhere in between the Audi/Lambo and the Bentley. I do not know if the available options for suspension in the Bentley are wide enough, but I tried max and min settings and it did not seem to make a noticeable difference for our matter.

Suspension stiffness shouldn't have a huge effect anyway because the amount of weight transfer is constant, no matter how stiff your springs are.


The Diff did though, when I put the power ramp to lower than 35, it started feeling like the other cars over curbs. At 20, it was quite bad. Also the opposite is true, when I put the power ramp at 90, the problematic cars improve a lot, too. But I do not think it's really a solution doing that, not to mention that AFAIK real GT3 cars do not have such adjustable diff.

Also TC helps, if you put it to High and to the default (10%) or less slip allowance, the situation improves as well. Of course this slows you down a lot everywhere else, so you'd need to enabled disable it on the fly, depending on if you are close to those curbs or not. And there are a lot of cars in the game with no TC...

Yeah, we already established that some time ago. It seems that there's a grip difference between track and curbs which you can compensate for by opening the diff a little.
The question where this comes from is much more complicated imo.
It could actually be less grip on curb surfaces but it could also be a temporary change in tire patch size (caused by the curb's uneven surface), an issue with the new driveline model or an issue with the curb modelling itself. We'll never know.

The fact that the Bentley and the BMW are less sensitive to this is probably because they're front engine cars.
Their center of gravity is closer to the front which increases its distance to the axis of rotation, which in this situation is your rear axle.
This increases the car's inertia which lowers the effect of the yaw moment that's trying to rotate your car towards the curb.

In other news, there's a 200+ posts long thread at the ACC forums about curb issues. lol

rich1e I
06-03-2019, 13:05
Suspension stiffness shouldn't have a huge effect anyway because the amount of weight transfer is constant, no matter how stiff your springs are.




Teams do actually soften the suspension for the Nordschleife for instance to absorb better bumps and hits through kerbs. The K-PAX guy also said they tune dampers to deal with kerbs and I'm sure he doesn't mean they make them stiffer.
What's the thread title you're referring to, btw?

Bealdor
06-03-2019, 13:15
Teams do actually soften the suspension for the Nordschleife for instance to absorb better bumps and hits through kerbs. The K-PAX guy also said they tune dampers to deal with kerbs and I'm sure he doesn't mean they make them stiffer.

That's a totally different issue. I was specifically talking about the "magnetic" curbs problem here.
And yes, you should adjust your dampers to handle curbs better (the default setups are really bad at this tbh.), but that's not the cause of that game specific issue.


What's the thread title you're referring to, btw?

https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/curb-behaviour.51750/

cpcdem
06-03-2019, 13:49
Bealdor, thanks for your input!



Yeah, we already established that some time ago. It seems that there's a grip difference between track and curbs which you can compensate for by opening the diff a little.

Not just a little though, it makes a difference when I put it to 80+ power ramp angle...



The question where this comes from is much more complicated imo.
It could actually be less grip on curb surfaces but it could also be a temporary change in tire patch size (caused by the curb's uneven surface), an issue with the new driveline model or an issue with the curb modelling itself. We'll never know.

The fact that the Bentley and the BMW are less sensitive to this is probably because they're front engine cars.
Their center of gravity is closer to the front which increases its distance to the axis of rotation, which in this situation is your rear axle.
This increases the car's inertia which lowers the effect of the yaw moment that's trying to rotate your car towards the curb.

I agree that it is probably complicated, but I really hope we will know, or at least it will be fixed for PCARS3. And if it does get fixed, I guess there will be no harm for the devs telling us what was causing it in PCARS2. Yeah, that was my theory as well, that the front engine decreases this effect. Also the bigger weight does that, too, but this is to be expected. And the FWD cars do not suffer from this problem, was wondering if it's just due to the front axle giving power, or its the front engine that makes a difference as well again. AWD cars have the problem as well.



In other news, there's a 200+ posts long thread at the ACC forums about curb issues. lol

Thanks, will get a good read on that, too. Just notice though how the OP is complaining that once every 100 times, the curb behavior is unrealistic. In PCARS2 it's more like 70 out of 100 times (for specific curbs)...

Bealdor
06-03-2019, 13:56
Thanks, will get a good read on that, too. Just notice though how the OP is complaining that once every 100 times, the curb behavior is unrealistic. In PCARS2 it's more like 70 out of 100 times (for specific curbs)...

That one was more like a tongue in cheek from me because some people make it look like PCARS 2 is the only game suffering from curb issues. :p
Their problems also seem to look quite differently so it's not a fair comparison anyway.

cpcdem
06-03-2019, 14:11
That one was more like a tongue in cheek from me because some people make it look like PCARS 2 is the only game suffering from curb issues. :p
Their problems also seem to look quite differently so it's not a fair comparison anyway.

Well, I did play ACC for a while (until I got too bored with it, but will try again now that it has a little more content) and this was the first thing I noticed, that the curbs felt realistic, they did unsettle the car as you would expect, but they do not cause that huge unrealistic rotation we have in PCARS2. Except for that time shown in the video, really curious to read the details in that thread, what people (and devs?) say about what caused it.

In my 100 hours in RRE I never experienced such a thing either, nor in the few hours I got into rF2...So in general I would say that PCARS2 is the only sim that's suffering from serious curb issues.

Twinz
06-03-2019, 15:36
Just started messing with iracing and found the curbs at Laguna more unsettling than in PC2.

Since I have never been to Laguna IRL, I don't know which sim is closer to RL.

However, I don't know that asking developers to change the code so that we can make our simulated cars do what the pros do in youtube videos with their real race cars is a good standard. After all, if we could do what the pros do with real cars, we would probably be riding curbs in, well, real race cars.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think everything the pros do in their race cars is "magic" or anything. But one thing pros tend to do in their respective fields is "make it look easy". Driving a car at the ragged edge of traction while negotiating a turn **and** instantaniously-changing grip level and surface contour (curbs) seems like just the type of thing that would separate pro drivers from the rest of us.

cpcdem
06-03-2019, 15:57
Well, true, anyway what we are doing is not really realistic, cornering at speeds of more than 200 km/h without "feeling" anything, not feeling the forces that make it so difficult for drivers IRL. We do not feel the extreme acceleration and deceleration of real cars, we also do not fear at all pushing over the limit that we may die if we overcook a corner and hit straight on a wall. The fastest sim racers are usually (much) faster that real drivers when they race in a sim. And the opposite is very true of course, sim drivers are very slower than real drivers, when driving real cars.

Sim racing is of course very different than sim racing, but still what can be done realistically, it should be done realistically IMO. I just tried again RRE, AC and ACC, in all three, when you ride a curb, you "feel" the car getting unsettled from the FFB, the sounds and the slight loss of traction/acceleration, but you have no problem maintaining your route and do not feel the car being like a boat. It is only in PCARS where we get that. I did read a lot of reports that it does also happen in AC/ACC, it is/was acknowledged as a bug by their devs, but in 30 mins I could not reproduce it at all in those games. Maybe I am just used to the very extreme curb reaction in PCARS2, so that the "problem" in the other sims feels like absolutely nothing comparably to me.

Sorry, I have no experience with iRacing, so I cannot comment on that. But I can watch onboard videos of real life drivers driving in real races, and I see them riding the curbs with 100% throttle shown in their telemetry and never countersteering, only doing very minor corrections with the wheel. This is only speculation of mine, but I think riding the curbs is very much less of an issue for real life drivers, than many other major things that really need their attention while racing.

rich1e I
06-03-2019, 16:14
Well, I see drivers wrestle their cars all the time, and when driving over kerbs even more. Posting some videos would help analyzing what you're talking about. When I was looking for an onboard video at COTA I found a video of an old 996 GT3 and it looked like very hard work to me. I'm sure there's more videos that show that you have to make corrections all the time.

sisollazzo
06-03-2019, 16:35
In this game there isn t any curbs issue. People always exagerete. Of course the right set up should be foud.

Bliman
06-03-2019, 22:23
In this game there isn t any curbs issue. People always exagerete. Of course the right set up should be foud.

There is definitely a problem with the curbs. Just look at the latest race of Jardier on the RedBull Ring. This is not normal for a car to behave this way imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXDUoVcCOo4

cpcdem
06-03-2019, 22:29
There is definitely a problem with the curbs. Just look at the latest race of Jardier on the RedBull Ring. This is not normal for a car to behave this way imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXDUoVcCOo4

At what time in the video? Btw, from all the tracks in PCARS2, RBR has probably the "easiest" curbs to ride. It's way more problematic in almost all other tracks IMO.

Bliman
06-03-2019, 22:44
At what time in the video? Btw, from all the tracks in PCARS2, RBR has probably the "easiest" curbs to ride. It's way more problematic in almost all other tracks IMO.

Oh yeah sorry. At for example look at 31min40sec to 31min50sec. To me that is very weird. Maybe some can explain this. also at around 38min 50sec he get's pulled in the last corner and the car wants to pull to the grass. A couple of times by the way. I have the feeling it happens when you ride on the curbs only. And not when you slam them hard or go on and over them very quickly.

cpcdem
06-03-2019, 22:50
Yeah, that at 31:50 happens often there, typical behavior in this game. But if that was anywhere close to being the worse curb behavior we get, then we would be almost fine :)

Bliman
06-03-2019, 22:55
Yeah, that at 31:50 happens often there, typical behavior in this game. But if that was anywhere close to being the worse curb behavior we get, then we would be almost fine :)

Can you explain the warming up lap at 31min40sec? That looks so weird to me. But I am surely not an expert as some here. So maybe it's like real life?

cpcdem
07-03-2019, 00:23
Can you explain the warming up lap at 31min40sec? That looks so weird to me. But I am surely not an expert as some here. So maybe it's like real life?

Well, to me it's clearly a big physics problem of the game. Some people believe so, others not, it's a dispute :)

rich1e I
07-03-2019, 09:58
I don't know Jardier's diff settings but it's clearly the sucking effect, Red Bull Ring is one of the tracks I might've forgotten to mention earlier in this thread, but to me in this and many other discussions there's tons of selective perception, cherrypicking, hyperbole and also false statements and that doesn't help to get to the bottom of an issue that people might really have. Instead we need to differentiate and analyze more. Why I'm mentioning this? Because you post a video that shows a tiny moment of that effect ignoring that Jardier was absolutely destroying that Lambo the whole 40 laps and actually riding that kerb lap after lap.

Bliman
07-03-2019, 12:30
I don't know Jardier's diff settings but it's clearly the sucking effect, Red Bull Ring is one of the tracks I might've forgotten to mention earlier in this thread, but to me in this and many other discussions there's tons of selective perception, cherrypicking, hyperbole and also false statements and that doesn't help to get to the bottom of an issue that people might really have. Instead we need to differentiate and analyze more. Why I'm mentioning this? Because you post a video that shows a tiny moment of that effect ignoring that Jardier was absolutely destroying that Lambo the whole 40 laps and actually riding that kerb lap after lap.

That I don't get. Destroying that Lambo? In what sense?
So you disregard that tiny moment or the moments that he get's sucked to the grass in the last corners, why?
Why is that selective perception or cherrypicking? Are you saying that I see things wrong? Because I already said that it looks very weird to me but that experts can have maybe an explanation for it. But that I would like to know what happened then.
And no he was not riding that kerb (if you mean the last corner) the same way, and that makes a big difference.

Sentry87
07-03-2019, 13:11
Meaning he uses the kerbs throughout the race with no consequences... But there is something weird going on with the kerbs sometimes with my experiences. 92% of the time they're fine but sometimes I don't know if I'm hitting them at a weird angle or what but it'll upset the car a little bit.

I believe there was a thread a while ago where someone posted what showed the surface types used for particular curves and kerbs in the game. A certain surface type file would create a specific reaction to the car.

rich1e I
07-03-2019, 13:26
That I don't get. Destroying that Lambo? In what sense?
So you disregard that tiny moment or the moments that he get's sucked to the grass in the last corners, why?


By 'destroying' I mean he drove the §$%%$ out of that Lambo. Combining his best sector times he would've been in the high 27s, race pace, hitting kerbs all the time.
If you actually read my post I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I disregard the sucking effect.




Meaning he uses the kerbs throughout the race with no consequences... But there is something weird going on with the kerbs sometimes with my experiences. 92% of the time they're fine but sometimes I don't know if I'm hitting them at a weird angle or what but it'll upset the car a little bit.

Yep, I think 'angle' is an important factor when hitting kerbs.

Twinz
07-03-2019, 14:40
If I hit a bump with the right front tire and the left front stayed on a flat surface, (like when he hit the curb) I would think the physics were jacked up if my car didn't pull to the right.

The bigger the impact on one of the front tires, the more I expect the wheel to get pulled toward the side that gets the impact.

rich1e I
07-03-2019, 15:35
If I hit a bump with the right front tire and the left front stayed on a flat surface, (like when he hit the curb) I would think the physics were jacked up if my car didn't pull to the right.

The bigger the impact on one of the front tires, the more I expect the wheel to get pulled toward the side that gets the impact.

It's a bit over-done, especially at Red Bull Ring. However, people take as a reference games that lack massively in terms of physics, handling and realism imo. One title should also completely redesign all of their cars because somehow the exhaust pipes seem to end in the cockpit. :confused: That's a serious construction fault and life threatening for any driver.
In that video we can see that you can drive the garbage out of your car in a 40 laps race and use as much kerb as the track limits allow. The statement 'impossible to take RL lines' is false.

DECATUR PLAYA
07-03-2019, 15:42
First I just want to say that I have partially lost or completely lost a many cars going over curbs. So I believe that the blackhole suction effect of the curbs is very real but in how the curb behavior affects every driver is to car, driver, and situation specific to say its broken. I dont think the effect happens because of lack tire physics in this area I think it happens because of the complexity of the tire model in this area specifically tire flex. The effect is just the effect of catching the curb at a bad angle.

Car: Each car on this game responds to curbs differently based on each cars suspension geomtry. Lets also remember that with tuning each cars suspension geomtry can be changed.

Situation: Real simple. Put a number on how many ways and at weird angles the tire can interact with a curb. When you add interactions at different speeds this number is almost infinite.

Driver: I read somewhere once that a driver is defined by his ass. A driver is defined by how well he or she feels the car thru his or her body therefore making a connection with the car. This is very evident when you see a driver deal with wheel slippage in the car. Bottom line if u get a bad reaction from a curb if you lift immediately you 99% of the time you counteract the wheel slippage caused by the curb. Is this easy to do. NO!!!!! This is a ability that seperates drivers and driving ability. Lifting at the first sign of wheel slippage to settle the car happens in a fraction of a second. This is why some drivers have big problems with curbs and some dont. Tuning is a major factor also. The better your suspension system can eat the curb there by reducing impact between the curb and the tire the less chance you will have of wheel slippage.

As far as each curb being designed to exact detail come on guys its video game.

Bliman
07-03-2019, 16:25
By 'destroying' I mean he drove the §$%%$ out of that Lambo. Combining his best sector times he would've been in the high 27s, race pace, hitting kerbs all the time.
If you actually read my post I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I disregard the sucking effect.





Yep, I think 'angle' is an important factor when hitting kerbs.

I have read your original answer to me. And I still don't know with, "he drove the §$%%$ out of that Lambo", what does that mean? Is that good, or sloppy or what does that mean?
I have come to the conclusion because you say "there's tons of selective perception, cherrypicking, hyperbole and also false statements " and also "Because you post a video that shows a tiny moment of that effect ignoring that Jardier was absolutely destroying that Lambo the whole 40 laps and actually riding that kerb lap after lap"
What does that mean? I also said that in the last corner he get's sucked in the grass a couple of times if he rides the kerb there. There seems to be no problem if he goes on the kerb and over it and then comes back on the kerb. It looks like a combination of angle you approach the kerb and how long you ride on it. It also doesn't seem to happen when he goes over them hard up and over them.

rich1e I
07-03-2019, 17:35
I have read your original answer to me. And I still don't know with, "he drove the §$%%$ out of that Lambo", what does that mean? Is that good, or sloppy or what does that mean?
I have come to the conclusion because you say "there's tons of selective perception, cherrypicking, hyperbole and also false statements " and also "Because you post a video that shows a tiny moment of that effect ignoring that Jardier was absolutely destroying that Lambo the whole 40 laps and actually riding that kerb lap after lap"
What does that mean? I also said that in the last corner he get's sucked in the grass a couple of times if he rides the kerb there. There seems to be no problem if he goes on the kerb and over it and then comes back on the kerb. It looks like a combination of angle you approach the kerb and how long you ride on it. It also doesn't seem to happen when he goes over them hard up and over them.

Look, what I wanted to say is that he drove on the limit and the kerbs didn't kill him, in a 40 laps race. The sucking effect is there and nobody denies that. You posted a video to prove something, maybe that kerbs are broken or whatever, but you actually made a point against you because Jardier has shown that these kerbs are no obstacle to drive on the limit for 40 laps.

Bliman
07-03-2019, 17:50
Look, what I wanted to say is that he drove on the limit and the kerbs didn't kill him, in a 40 laps race. The sucking effect is there and nobody denies that. You posted a video to prove something, maybe that kerbs are broken or whatever, but you actually made a point against you because Jardier has shown that these kerbs are no obstacle to drive on the limit for 40 laps.

Ok now I understand. Thanks for explaining. Yes he drove on the limits. But you cannot say that he drove on the limit on the warmup lap.
I also didn't say that he had a problem all the race or that he had problems on every kerb. I said with the time frames where something weird occurs. There are a couple of times more where he rides the kerbs in the last corner and where the kerbs wants to pull him either on the grass or wants to let you stay on the kerbs. I certainly don't meant that whole the video was a showing how the kerbs are wrong. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

Zaskarspants
07-03-2019, 19:17
Forgive me if this was previously posted. Does not delve deep but communicates well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFbzbO-vQVQ

Sentry87
08-03-2019, 00:25
Drove on Mugello today. Now those curbs are dangerous..

pferreirag60
10-03-2019, 18:39
It seams many people have never been walking in a track!

If you look at some curbs in some tracks, you could be sure that you will brake something in a car if you drove the curb. These curbs are done like that, so you don try to drive on them, and receive a penalty if driven (broken car).

So you wanted to just race in the last S in Mugello, flat, without 2 curves :) it is normal that if you climb the curbs in the last S, you will loose the car..if that curbs didnīt existed there, everyone will just ignore the S

cpcdem
10-03-2019, 20:56
It seams many people have never been walking in a track!

If you look at some curbs in some tracks, you could be sure that you will brake something in a car if you drove the curb. These curbs are done like that, so you don try to drive on them, and receive a penalty if driven (broken car).

So you wanted to just race in the last S in Mugello, flat, without 2 curves :) it is normal that if you climb the curbs in the last S, you will loose the car..if that curbs didnīt existed there, everyone will just ignore the S

Except for the fact that drivers in real life race cars do exactly that (riding the curbs) every single time, race after race, lap after lap, and have absolutely no issue at all :)

Edit: https://youtu.be/9jc0U4zUMhw?t=162

(of course I am not talking about the sausage curbs, those can indeed destroy the cars)

Sentry87
10-03-2019, 21:16
However I've seen guys in pc2 drive through those S curve on mugello lap after lap without losing it. I don't know If they are making corrections faster than me, lifting, or maybe I'm just taking those corners wrong. It's like every 6 laps I'll spin out

cpcdem
10-03-2019, 23:18
I also always make it, it's no problem after dealing with that for so long. You just need to be prepared to catch the rotation with counter steering. Like driving rally GT3 cars :)

DTPlatz
11-03-2019, 01:16
We had a race yesterday at Circuit of Americas and our opinion: there are worst and unrealistic curbs at this track. At what tracks do you think it's bad too?

Curbs are fine in the game. A lot of it has to do with how you setup your dampeners. Firm rebound helps to force the suspension to understeer when on a curb. Soft rebound will cause the car want to turn itself when it hits the curb. Normally it is just the front rebound you need to make firm to handle the curbs unless you feel the rear end is to unstable on them.

Just remember, if you do rally cross you do the opposite of what you do for circuit racing as you usually want to drift yourself around turns.

morpwr
11-03-2019, 01:17
I also always make it, it's no problem after dealing with that for so long. You just need to be prepared to catch the rotation with counter steering. Like driving rally GT3 cars :)

It would be interesting to take a poll and see what wheels people have the issues with. There is a reason behind this.

cpcdem
11-03-2019, 01:50
It would be interesting to take a poll and see what wheels people have the issues with. There is a reason behind this.

I have a G29, but I doubt it has to do with that, because I see exactly the same behavior as in Jardier's video posted earlier, and I think he uses a DD wheel. Also I do not get so extreme behavior with all cars, some ride the curbs fine (especially the heavier ones and most of the FWDs). Something that does make a difference is traction control, if you have it at default value (10%) and at the HIGH setting, then it decreases the effect considerably. But this slows you down a lot everywhere else and does not allow you to be competitive, so it is not really an option when you want to fight with the fast guys..

Edit: Nah, ignore that, happens a lot with full TC as well.

cpcdem
11-03-2019, 02:22
One thing that could possibly have an impact though, is CPU power, if physics run at different rates in different machines. A year or so ago we had a patch that made a lot of cars very difficult to drive for some of us, and that had to do with CPU power. For me (with an i5 4460 back then) what fixed that problem was adding -pthreads 4 in my command line args when running the game and eventually the problem was fixed in the next patch anyway. But it is possible that different physics rate might be causing this effect to be more intense for some people and less for others. Especially if the physics rate is not constant even for the same PC, but varies depending on what happens in the race. Just something more to consider...

hkraft300
11-03-2019, 09:49
... You just need to be prepared to catch the rotation with counter steering. Like driving rally GT3 cars :)

Maybe that's what the GT3 drivers are doing in real life too. Which would mean the kerbs are pretty accurate, no?

Zaskarspants
11-03-2019, 09:52
And just possibly most of us are not as good at smashing kerbs as pro drivers?

rich1e I
11-03-2019, 11:15
The Porsche driver was being cautious trough that S. He actually clearly lifted at both kerbs. No full throttle there.

cpcdem
11-03-2019, 15:01
Maybe that's what the GT3 drivers are doing in real life too. Which would mean the kerbs are pretty accurate, no?

It does not look like at all to me like he's counter steering, does not look he has any trouble at all. And he looks like being completely full throttle to me, both aspects I think are more clear a couple laps later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jc0U4zUMhw&t=390

Anyway, just so we are all on the same page, I will later create a video showing the behavior I am getting in game and everybody can compare with/post their own experience.

rich1e I
11-03-2019, 15:27
Well, this time it's a few laps later and he seems to go full throttle through the first part but he's only at 75% or so throttle input in the 2nd part, after the apex he goes full throttle again. No full throttle lap after lap. Same as in-game. If you eat too much kerb you risk to unsettle car, and that's the reason why he lifted earlier in the video because it's definitely not 100% safe driving over kerbs IRL.

bradleyland
11-03-2019, 18:51
Maybe that's what the GT3 drivers are doing in real life too. Which would mean the kerbs are pretty accurate, no?

Watch this onboard from the #63 488 GT3 at Road America. Watch how calm his hands are, even though he's all over the kerbs. I mean, watch at 2:05 when he runs out T14 onto the front straight. Balzan is an absolute monster behind the wheel, but he's not working hard to handle the kerbs. The car is so stable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn8xd8_zk9Y

Load up RA in pCARS 2 and hit those same kerbs. It requires massive steering inputs to pull the car back on the track. You can't just hold the same steering angle like he does in the real car.

Zaskarspants
11-03-2019, 19:29
Watch this onboard from the #63 488 GT3 at Road America. Watch how calm his hands are, even though he's all over the kerbs. I mean, watch at 2:05 when he runs out T14 onto the front straight. Balzan is an absolute monster behind the wheel, but he's not working hard to handle the kerbs. The car is so stable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn8xd8_zk9Y

Load up RA in pCARS 2 and hit those same kerbs. It requires massive steering inputs to pull the car back on the track. You can't just hold the same steering angle like he does in the real car.

This is not a valid comparison unless you compare this Balzan guy irl with him driving pcars2. Can someone give him a call?

Bliman
11-03-2019, 20:49
This is not a valid comparison unless you compare this Balzan guy irl with him driving pcars2. Can someone give him a call?

Why is it not a valid comparison? He doesn't even move his hands very much when attacking those kerbs. He doesn't seem to take a strange line. It looks like he takes a line pretty similar to many racers. So why does it matter that he drives the same corner in pcars2?
You can clearly see that the kerbs behave differently in real life then in the game. Or do you not come to this conclusion?

bradleyland
11-03-2019, 21:33
This is not a valid comparison unless you compare this Balzan guy irl with him driving pcars2. Can someone give him a call?

You can simply watch his hands. The steering inputs required are wildly different. That's not driver.

It's remarkable the lengths people will go to in order to defend this game. The kerb behavior is objectively bad. Can we drive around the issue? Sure. But that doesn't make it remotely realistic.

Zaskarspants
12-03-2019, 10:50
It's science Jim, to make a valid comparison and draw vaild conclusions you need to control the variables and adjust the one parameter you are examining, the game. Ideally you would need the same driver with the same set up on the same car, the same tyres and the same track conditions to compare irl with game.

I do appreciate some people are sad about the kerbs but I have no trouble with them. There will be no adjustments now whatever people think so this is really just navel gazing and or partisan. My advice to those having issues is to adjust your approach, all games interpret reality differently and all require some understanding of their individual characteristics to get the best out of them.

rich1e I
12-03-2019, 11:07
You can simply watch his hands. The steering inputs required are wildly different. That's not driver.

It's remarkable the lengths people will go to in order to defend this game. The kerb behavior is objectively bad. Can we drive around the issue? Sure. But that doesn't make it remotely realistic.

I can't agree with such generalization. You can't take Road America, which is off in terms of accuracy, post a video that shows how nicely the 488 deals with kerbs there and say kerb behaviour is objectively bad, ignoring the evidence that has been provided that kerbs can cause bad damage to a race car. Kerbs are different from track to track and I can only talk for myself, no issues with riding them. Some effects are a bit too strong, but your 'verdict' is definitely 'too much' in my view.
Default setups may be too stiff. Try softening the suspensions a little bit. It'll be much better.

bradleyland
12-03-2019, 13:45
It's science Jim, to make a valid comparison and draw vaild conclusions you need to control the variables and adjust the one parameter you are examining, the game. Ideally you would need the same driver with the same set up on the same car, the same tyres and the same track conditions to compare irl with game.

I do appreciate some people are sad about the kerbs but I have no trouble with them. There will be no adjustments now whatever people think so this is really just navel gazing and or partisan. My advice to those having issues is to adjust your approach, all games interpret reality differently and all require some understanding of their individual characteristics to get the best out of them.

lol, no dude. This isn't science. If it were close, I'd get it. If the real driver's inputs were apparent, but not as exaggerated, I'd completely agree. But you're confusing my assertion. I've already made clear that we're able to drive around the issue. My point is that we shouldn't have to. Curb behavior on some tracks is egregiously bad. I'm harping on Road America because it is the best example of a track where the curbs are notoriously bad.

My only desire is that SMS see this discussion and incorporate the feedback. I'm not saying it's some kind of game breaking issue. It's just a wart on an otherwise great package.


I can't agree with such generalization. You can't take Road America, which is off in terms of accuracy, post a video that shows how nicely the 488 deals with kerbs there and say kerb behaviour is objectively bad, ignoring the evidence that has been provided that kerbs can cause bad damage to a race car. Kerbs are different from track to track and I can only talk for myself, no issues with riding them. Some effects are a bit too strong, but your 'verdict' is definitely 'too much' in my view.
Default setups may be too stiff. Try softening the suspensions a little bit. It'll be much better.

Yes actually, I can. I'd argue this is the best approach: same car, same circuit. Your rebuttal is a strawman. I never said that kerbs can't cause damage. I also never said they're the same on every track. I'm just pointing out that the kerb behavior is unrealistic in some scenarios, and I'd love to see SMS improve it in the next game.

Zaskarspants
12-03-2019, 15:06
I think a scientific comparison would compare telemetry irl with game telemetry with as many variables as possible congruent, that may give objective information. This may have been done during development, perhaps likely so.

The experiential input on this thread is useful I am sure too but much of it is contradictory hence my focus on a more scientific approach.

Bliman
12-03-2019, 15:41
I think a scientific comparison would compare telemetry irl with game telemetry with as many variables as possible congruent, that may give objective information. This may have been done during development, perhaps likely so.

The experiential input on this thread is useful I am sure too but much of it is contradictory hence my focus on a more scientific approach.

You first said this "And just possibly most of us are not as good at smashing kerbs as pro drivers? " and then this "This is not a valid comparison unless you compare this Balzan guy irl with him driving pcars2. Can someone give him a call? " .
With that you implied that a pro driver can drive the curbs better then a sim driver in a sim.
We then say that the difference between a sim driver and real life driver is not so great on these curbs (the way a sim driver takes this corner or kurbs), but the behaviour of the kurbs are certainly different on PC2.
You didn't say that the variables had to be the same and such.
And I agree that is the best to compare with all the variables the same.
But maybe the other way is interesting. Could someone provide real life footage where the car behaves like in the sim on the kurbs.
You know the pulling of the car towards the grass and such.
This is of course feedback for the next game.
Sadly they won't work on this game anymore.

Zaskarspants
12-03-2019, 16:06
I am not sure what you mean, my trajectory throughout has been that comparisons are fraught with passion and subjectivity and so it is very difficult to be persuasive without clear information, evidenced by some of the disagreements we see here.

Even when videos have been cited above it has even been difficult to agree what they do show. The interface between the reduced SIM world, the user and their expectations is a complex one clearly.

Bliman
12-03-2019, 16:13
I am not sure what you mean, my trajectory throughout has been that comparisons are fraught with passion and subjectivity and so it is very difficult to be persuasive without clear information, evidenced by some of the disagreements we see here.

Even when videos have cited above it has even been difficult to agree what they do show. The interface between the reduced SIM world, the user and their expectations is a complex one clearly.

What I got from your previous comments is that a pro driver has much more ability to handle these curbs. And that is why you see so much difference in the video, because the driver is so much better then the sim driver.
That to me is false because we see many times that the curbs doesn't effect there steering ,throttle, etc like it does in PC2.
The difference is to great to just blame it on the driver imo.
I find it weird that there are still people that say that the curbs are fine.
I agree I am not the greatest tuning guy. But I don't get if it can be changed in setup why they didn't go for a default setup that gives much more realistic curb behaviour.

cpcdem
12-03-2019, 16:34
Even when videos have been cited above it has even been difficult to agree what they do show.

They do show that in none occasion, of multiple races, car after car, lap after lap, corner after corner, they never get a behavior that you got in your own video at 1:23, 3:50, 3:53 and 7:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGOujT3zSu4

And you are usually completely avoiding those curbs that show the totaly unrealistic (IMO) behavior, you attacked those only 10-15 times and in at least 4 of those cases you got this over rotation. You were quick to catch the car from spinning, but this is exactly NOT what we see in any of the real life footage videos.

Btw, I guess that if you search long enough, you will find a similar occurrence in real life, too. But that's what, in 0.1% of the cases?

bradleyland
12-03-2019, 17:46
I think a scientific comparison would compare telemetry irl with game telemetry with as many variables as possible congruent, that may give objective information. This may have been done during development, perhaps likely so.

The experiential input on this thread is useful I am sure too but much of it is contradictory hence my focus on a more scientific approach.

I'm all for science. I used a custom written telemetry logger (https://github.com/bradland/ac_telemetry) and RStudio to determine shift points (https://i.imgur.com/oSGjkoG.png) for the 488 GT3 in AC, because the built-in shift lights were completely wrong. However, you don't need telemetry to see that there is zero change in steering angle as Balzan runs off on the curb and then comes back onto the circuit with no change whatsoever in steering angle. Watch his hands. There's literally no movement.

You don't need a well controlled scientific study to see the discrepancy any more than you need a well controled scientific study to see the difference between 5 lbs of horse manure and 50 lbs of horse manure. You can eyeball it. Just be sure to wash your hands after.

rich1e I
12-03-2019, 18:13
Yes actually, I can. I'd argue this is the best approach: same car, same circuit. Your rebuttal is a strawman. I never said that kerbs can't cause damage. I also never said they're the same on every track. I'm just pointing out that the kerb behavior is unrealistic in some scenarios, and I'd love to see SMS improve it in the next game.
You were generalizing and being very vague, now you're acting like you never did. Your words are still there.
So let me recapitulate: You said kerb behaviour is objectively bad. What would be 'good' behaviour? Kerbs that don't unsettle your car? Now, kerbs can unsettle and shake your car and you can see that in pretty much every onboard cam, up to the point to break your car. That's why a 'bad behaviour' can be realistic indeed.
Again, if you soften the suspension and increase ride height it's much better.

bradleyland
12-03-2019, 18:37
You were generalizing and being very vague, now you're acting like you never did. Your words are still there. It's this kind of unserious 'arguments' that make this kind of criticism look bad, really.
So let me recapitulate: You said kerb behaviour is objectively bad. What would be 'good' behaviour? Kerbs that don't unsettle your car? Now, kerbs can unsettle and shake your car and you can see that in pretty much every onboard cam, up to the point to break your car. That's why a 'bad behaviour' can be realistic indeed.
Again, if you soften the suspension and increase ride height it's much better.

I'm sorry, but if you can't read my comments in context, then that's on you. So let me recapitulate: In my previous statement "the kerb behavior" is clearly in reference to the circumstance I'd been referencing the entire time; the curbs at Road Atlanta. Good behavior would be if the car behaved more like the real car on the real circuit, which is best described by observing, you know, real cars. I needn't enumerate a description for what is evident in plain sight.

rich1e I
12-03-2019, 18:46
I'm sorry, but if you can't read my comments in context, then that's on you. So let me recapitulate: In my previous statement "the kerb behavior" is clearly in reference to the circumstance I'd been referencing the entire time; the curbs at Road Atlanta. Good behavior would be if the car behaved more like the real car on the real circuit, which is best described by observing, you know, real cars. I needn't enumerate a description for what is evident in plain sight.

That's actually true. Now, after reading again, I must say I didn't read your comment in context. Sorry for complicating things!

Mad Al
12-03-2019, 20:49
I'm all for science. I used a custom written telemetry logger (https://github.com/bradland/ac_telemetry) and RStudio to determine shift points (https://i.imgur.com/oSGjkoG.png) for the 488 GT3 in AC, because the built-in shift lights were completely wrong. However, you don't need telemetry to see that there is zero change in steering angle as Balzan runs off on the curb and then comes back onto the circuit with no change whatsoever in steering angle. Watch his hands. There's literally no movement.

You don't need a well controlled scientific study to see the discrepancy any more than you need a well controled scientific study to see the difference between 5 lbs of horse manure and 50 lbs of horse manure. You can eyeball it. Just be sure to wash your hands after.

And he's not having additional FFB to replace all the other senses either, so unless you are running pure rack only on your FFB, you'll probably get a load of additional forces that a real driver won't, which may affect your results.

So have you tried to isolate the FFB to exclude it influencing the results.

morpwr
12-03-2019, 21:23
One thing that could possibly have an impact though, is CPU power, if physics run at different rates in different machines. A year or so ago we had a patch that made a lot of cars very difficult to drive for some of us, and that had to do with CPU power. For me (with an i5 4460 back then) what fixed that problem was adding -pthreads 4 in my command line args when running the game and eventually the problem was fixed in the next patch anyway. But it is possible that different physics rate might be causing this effect to be more intense for some people and less for others. Especially if the physics rate is not constant even for the same PC, but varies depending on what happens in the race. Just something more to consider...

I remember that. I actually tested one of the cars with you on Silverstone. I brought up the wheel because I remember having a lot of problems with this in Pcars1. I spent a lot of time tuning that out with the ffb settings. So those definitely do effect that issue. What particular combination for every wheel with Pcars2 I don't know . lol The other thing ive noticed is as my wheels have gotten better t300,pc-racer,osw dd the problem has gotten better in every sim. So I think part of the problem may be we set our wheels up for the most feel under normal circumstances and especially with consumer wheels that have a much smaller range to work with when you get a curb hit you may get a momentary grab because it clipped. Problem is if it only clips at the wheel you have no way to see it like with the ffb graph. But a momentary grab in the wheel especially in the heat of the battle may be very difficult to notice and easily blamed on the game. Just a thought....

cpcdem
12-03-2019, 21:36
I remember that. I actually tested one of the cars with you on Silverstone. I brought up the wheel because I remember having a lot of problems with this in Pcars1. I spent a lot of time tuning that out with the ffb settings. So those definitely do effect that issue. What particular combination for every wheel with Pcars2 I don't know . lol The other thing ive noticed is as my wheels have gotten better t300,pc-racer,osw dd the problem has gotten better in every sim. So I think part of the problem may be we set our wheels up for the most feel under normal circumstances and especially with consumer wheels that have a much smaller range to work with when you get a curb hit you may get a momentary grab because it clipped. Problem is if it only clips at the wheel you have no way to see it like with the ffb graph. But a momentary grab in the wheel especially in the heat of the battle may be very difficult to notice and easily blamed on the game. Just a thought....

Yeah, thought about it as well, so tried with high volume in the FFB and also with very low volume, and the results were identical I think. Do you mean you do not get this over rotation when riding certain curbs at all? For example the ones I pointed out in http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?66231-What-s-wrong-with-curbs-in-this-game&p=1562050&viewfull=1#post1562050 ?

Bliman
12-03-2019, 22:27
By the way I drive with a gamepad. And I get the exact same over rotation. Or sometimes the kurbs feel like glue.

morpwr
13-03-2019, 00:02
Yeah, thought about it as well, so tried with high volume in the FFB and also with very low volume, and the results were identical I think. Do you mean you do not get this over rotation when riding certain curbs at all? For example the ones I pointed out in http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?66231-What-s-wrong-with-curbs-in-this-game&p=1562050&viewfull=1#post1562050 ?

What about using the gain instead? I don't ever touch volume. Normally if I hit a curb no. Obviously its not always perfect.lol Ill try those and see what happens for me. Any particular car you want me to use?

cpcdem
13-03-2019, 00:19
None in particular, I personally see this behavior with almost all the RWD cars, race and road cars, except for the heavy ones.

morpwr
13-03-2019, 00:31
None in particular, I personally see this behavior with almost all the RWD cars, race and road cars, except for the heavy ones.

Ill give it a shot and see what happens.

blackduckrun
13-03-2019, 01:41
I think some people would rather re-write the laws of physics than admit there is any goofiness in what goes on with the kerbs in this game. Not every kerb is attacked the same, some are off throttle and some are on throttle. You won't notice the issues in apex kerbs that are attacked off throttle. For me COTA is the worst; all of COTA's kerbs can be 'attacked' off throttle (that seems to be 0% throttle for the duration a rear tire is touching kerb), with out much drama to speak of, as is the case with pretty much any kerb in the game that can be attacked. But that is clearly not the reality of how drivers attack the kerbs at COTA. Here is Scott Dixon at COTA during Indy Car practice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llNmkjHHH_E), he is pretty ginger on the kerbs at the start of the run, but even what he's doing then would get you a big traction moment in PCARS2. By lap 5 he is, near as makes no difference, flat out through 2 and 3. Not possible in the game in any car I have driven there (only RWD cars, all in game, Indy car included). Something that I find quite telling about COTA in the game is that you can get through sector 1 faster by driving around the kerbs and staying on throttle than by 'attacking' them off throttle. So yeah, you can drive around it, or make some unusual setup changes to cope with it a bit, or chalk it up to 'character' of the game, and I'm happy enough to leave some aspects of reality out of my sim racing, things like injuries from crashes don't appeal to me much, but accurate kerb physics really does seem like one of the aspects of simulation that most people would want. I don't know why people try to explain it away.

hkraft300
13-03-2019, 03:51
.. . Watch how calm his hands are, even though he's all over the kerbs


It does not look like at all to me like he's counter steering, does not look he has any trouble at all.

That's race driver skills. I'll try to explain.
Can you see how little steering the real driver is using at the apex of the kerb? Even when he comes off it he's barely reacted. That's a pro in action, because the fastest way round is using minimal steering because you're at peak grip.

You know when you hit the kerb it's going to spin you, right? Like for a right turn you have you steering turned right as you hit the inside apex kerb with your front right wheel. What happens: the car rotates more than you've asked. Then if you're quick enough you countersteer for the slide and keep going. The race driver knows the kerb will rotate the car so he "doesn't steer it" over the kerbs. He rotates the car partly with a little steering input, and a little with the kerb, resulting in the correct amount of rotation to be pointed at the exit.
Try the C7R at imola or even an LMP2 or GT1 car. If you get it right you fly through S1.

cpcdem
13-03-2019, 04:21
That's race driver skills. I'll try to explain.
Can you see how little steering the real driver is using at the apex of the kerb? Even when he comes off it he's barely reacted. That's a pro in action, because the fastest way round is using minimal steering because you're at peak grip.

You know when you hit the kerb it's going to spin you, right? Like for a right turn you have you steering turned right as you hit the inside apex kerb with your front right wheel. What happens: the car rotates more than you've asked. Then if you're quick enough you countersteer for the slide and keep going. The race driver knows the kerb will rotate the car so he "doesn't steer it" over the kerbs. He rotates the car partly with a little steering input, and a little with the kerb, resulting in the correct amount of rotation to be pointed at the exit.
Try the C7R at imola or even an LMP2 or GT1 car. If you get it right you fly through S1.

I think that's a very good point, but I had thought of that already and payed attention to use as little steering as possible in some of my tests. To me at least, this didn't change much, although you could argue that I still did not do it proper enough and I agree, I cannot tell you that I am absolutely certain I am doing the steering correctly.

But I am doing the same steering in all the other sims, and have no problems over curbs, only minor destabilization which loses me acceleration, but does not spin the car. Are ALL other sims wrong and PCARS2 is right on that matter? I really doubt it.

We also have the infamous video of the real life racing driver who had a big grin on his face when he attempted to ride a curb in PCARS2 and instantly dismissed this behavior, but I will not go there now again :)

DECATUR PLAYA
13-03-2019, 05:47
Watch this onboard from the #63 488 GT3 at Road America. Watch how calm his hands are, even though he's all over the kerbs. I mean, watch at 2:05 when he runs out T14 onto the front straight. Balzan is an absolute monster behind the wheel, but he's not working hard to handle the kerbs. The car is so stable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn8xd8_zk9Y

Load up RA in pCARS 2 and hit those same kerbs. It requires massive steering inputs to pull the car back on the track. You can't just hold the same steering angle like he does in the real car.

Go to 1:49 on the video pay close attention to what he says as he explains driving thru Canada corner and pay close attention to his throttle work off the corner. Also listen to his motor as he navigates the corner as you can hear his throttle work thru and off the corner.

Edit: Also watch the outside kerb snatch his steering wheel as he exits the kerb.

hkraft300
13-03-2019, 06:52
I think that's a very good point, but I had thought of that already and payed attention to use as little steering as possible in some of my tests. To me at least, this didn't change much, although you could argue that I still did not do it proper enough and I agree, I cannot tell you that I am absolutely certain I am doing the steering correctly.



I have the most experience at imola so I keep talking about it. The kerbs are huge in S1.
Its a combination of setup, and taking just the right amount of kerb with the right amount of steering or you're screwed. Hit it wrong you understeer or oversteer, get it right it is phenomenal.
Maybe try the Radical RXC - That thing takes kerbs, the aero loss isn't drastic and the grip loss is progressive. It is really good at road America so I'd guess it'd be great at imola and cota too.

bradleyland
13-03-2019, 13:03
Go to 1:49 on the video pay close attention to what he says as he explains driving thru Canada corner and pay close attention to his throttle work off the corner. Also listen to his motor as he navigates the corner as you can hear his throttle work thru and off the corner.

Edit: Also watch the outside kerb snatch his steering wheel as he exits the kerb.

I'm not saying the curbs should have no effect at all. I'm saying the way cars currently behave on the curbs at RA is far from how the cars behave in real life.

IMO, the corner you've called out is an excellent demonstration of how the game and real life are inconsistent. Look at his throttle position while the car is fully on the curbs.

https://i.imgur.com/55lxnGn.png

If you do that in pCARS 2, your car will pull hard left because of the traction difference. Balzan backs it into this corner under hard braking, even requiring a small amount of opposite lock to straighten the car out. Watch the wheel as he moves from the curb back onto the circuit. There is almost no change in steering angle.

bradleyland
13-03-2019, 13:09
To be 100% clear, I don't think the curbs in pCARS 2 are a complete disaster or anything. I just think they need a little attention. I keep picking on RA because that's the circuit where I see the most deviation from real life.

cpcdem
13-03-2019, 14:07
I have the most experience at imola so I keep talking about it. The kerbs are huge in S1.
Its a combination of setup, and taking just the right amount of kerb with the right amount of steering or you're screwed. Hit it wrong you understeer or oversteer, get it right it is phenomenal.

Yeap, but it's taking the right amount of curb that the physics of PCARS2 require, not that of reality! IMO of course.



To be 100% clear, I don't think the curbs in pCARS 2 are a complete disaster or anything. I just think they need a little attention. I keep picking on RA because that's the circuit where I see the most deviation from real life.

I disagree with that, to me, it is a huge immersion breaker.

DECATUR PLAYA
13-03-2019, 15:45
I'm not saying the curbs should have no effect at all. I'm saying the way cars currently behave on the curbs at RA is far from how the cars behave in real life.

IMO, the corner you've called out is an excellent demonstration of how the game and real life are inconsistent. Look at his throttle position while the car is fully on the curbs.

https://i.imgur.com/55lxnGn.png

If you do that in pCARS 2, your car will pull hard left because of the traction difference. Balzan backs it into this corner under hard braking, even requiring a small amount of opposite lock to straighten the car out. Watch the wheel as he moves from the curb back onto the circuit. There is almost no change in steering angle.

If you go back a few frames before your pic he was half throttle getting on the kerb. He setup his exit off the kerb with his throttle work getting on the kerb. He didnt apex and go immediately back to full throttle. He said himself it was a tricky turn and that there was slick traction on the outside kerb.

As far as how smooth he was on and off the kerbs was due to his driving. He made it look smooth. When he exited that turn in that corner the steering wheel violently snapped to the right as he exited. Quick hands and experience kept that car straight. The kerb itself had a violent effect on the car.

rich1e I
13-03-2019, 18:02
Again, I think it depends on the car/track combo and on your setup. Just took the AMG GT3 out for a spin at Road America and it really was ok. No massive steering input required to get off the kerb, not even in the last corner. Springs 280 front/140 rear. I was a bit surprised because I recall that kerb to bite you more but it really was fine.
https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e-i/video/71109149

I'm wondering why there seems to be such a difference in the experience we all make in this game. It's not about blindly defending it. It's just, kerbs have never been a huge problem for me.

Twinz
13-03-2019, 19:17
I have had no issues with them either. (At least no issues that I wouldn't have expected from just looking at them)

DECATUR PLAYA
13-03-2019, 19:27
Again, I think it depends on the car/track combo and on your setup. Just took the AMG GT3 out for a spin at Road America and it really was ok. No massive steering input required to get off the kerb, not even in the last corner. Springs 280 front/140 rear. I was a bit surprised because I recall that kerb to bite you more but it really was fine.
https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e-i/video/71109149

I'm wondering why there seems to be such a difference in the experience we all make in this game. It's not about blindly defending it. It's just, kerbs have never been a huge problem for me.

Because this game is so intricate it provides a different experience for everybody that plays it. The kerbs are the same for everyone but how that turn or kerb gets attacked is different for every driver on the game.

Also most guys dont tune so tuning out problems is not a option if you dont tune. As you said above by listing your spring settings you can make these cars handle kerbs better with proper tuning adjustment in the springs, dampers, and diff.

cpcdem
13-03-2019, 21:48
Also most guys dont tune so tuning out problems is not a option if you dont tune. As you said above by listing your spring settings you can make these cars handle kerbs better with proper tuning adjustment in the springs, dampers, and diff.

If that was true, then it would mean that all the default setups of almost all the cars in the game are completely unrealistic or very badly made, because the problem with the curbs exists in almost all tracks...

TheSoulReaver03
13-03-2019, 21:48
Because this game is so intricate it provides a different experience for everybody that plays it. The kerbs are the same for everyone but how that turn or kerb gets attacked is different for every driver on the game.

Also most guys dont tune so tuning out problems is not a option if you dont tune. As you said above by listing your spring settings you can make these cars handle kerbs better with proper tuning adjustment in the springs, dampers, and diff.

If you so much as TOUCH a kerb with the Audi R8 in GT3 while even just TOUCHING the throttle, you're gonna be thrown hard to the left. I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem right with a 45 degree ramp angle on the differential, especially considering that the differential gives throttle to the wheels with LESS rolling resistance.

This game shouldn't be "intricate". It should replicate real life as much as possible, hence the term "simulator".

DECATUR PLAYA
13-03-2019, 22:59
If you so much as TOUCH a kerb with the Audi R8 in GT3 while even just TOUCHING the throttle, you're gonna be thrown hard to the left. I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem right with a 45 degree ramp angle on the differential, especially considering that the differential gives throttle to the wheels with LESS rolling resistance.

This game shouldn't be "intricate". It should replicate real life as much as possible, hence the term "simulator".

I could also be mistaken but a 45 degree power ramp angle is pretty aggressive. For max give use a 90 degree angle and work your way down until its comfortable. I use 90 a lot. Guys use all kinds of power ramp angles per their particular driving style but if you look at the leaderboards its normally a lot of high power ramp angles especially in the higher powered cars.

DECATUR PLAYA
13-03-2019, 23:07
If that was true, then it would mean that all the default setups of almost all the cars in the game are completely unrealistic or very badly made, because the problem with the curbs exists in almost all tracks...

I can pretty much agree with this. It is not many cars where the default setup agrees with me. I dont like the defaults and generally start changing them immediately. They are good base setups but not good for pushing the car to the edge in my opinion.

You have to remember though that as much as racing is a battle out on the track between drivers in real life there is a battle also going on between garages. Who can produce the best car for their driver and this is accurately reproduced in PCars 2. The battle in the garage is just as important as the battle out on the track and thats why the base setups are just base setups.

DECATUR PLAYA
13-03-2019, 23:32
^Just wanted add.Thats the great part about Sim racing. At least the playing field is level.

cpcdem
14-03-2019, 00:03
I could also be mistaken but a 45 degree power ramp angle is pretty aggressive. For max give use a 90 degree angle and work your way down until its comfortable. I use 90 a lot. Guys use all kinds of power ramp angles per their particular driving style but if you look at the leaderboards its normally a lot of high power ramp angles especially in the higher powered cars.

Yeah, a 90 degrees power ramp angle helps indeed, it was mentioned here before. But there's nothing more totally unrealistic than a GT3 diff with a 90 degrees power ramp angle...




You have to remember though that as much as racing is a battle out on the track between drivers in real life there is a battle also going on between garages. Who can produce the best car for their driver and this is accurately reproduced in PCars 2. The battle in the garage is just as important as the battle out on the track and thats why the base setups are just base setups.

I agree in general with that, but IMO this is not what we are doing here. What we are doing is that we are trying to find exploits or completely bizarre setup settings to workaround or cover a big flaw in the physics. Agin IMO, setup/garage work should not be about that at all, it should be about adjusting the car to our needs, not to the needs of the wrong physics (in this particular area).

DECATUR PLAYA
14-03-2019, 01:54
Yeah, a 90 degrees power ramp angle helps indeed, it was mentioned here before. But there's nothing more totally unrealistic than a GT3 diff with a 90 degrees power ramp angle...




I agree in general with that, but IMO this is not what we are doing here. What we are doing is that we are trying to find exploits or completely bizarre setup settings to workaround or cover a big flaw in the physics. Agin IMO, setup/garage work should not be about that at all, it should be about adjusting the car to our needs, not to the needs of the wrong physics (in this particular area).

A setup is a setup. There are no exploits that I know only give and take.

About the physics. The majority of the physics are in the tire model. The tire model is what allows you to feel the car. If PCars has the best tire model of any racing game then its hard to compare other sims to PCars because in saying that it has the best tire model you are also saying that it has better physics than any other racing game. I have not played these games so I cant compare.

One of the reasons the kerbs are a problem for a lot of people is because of the tire flex in the tire model. Tire flex is one part of the tire model that gives PCars its bragging rights in the tire model/physics part of the game. The tire flex in the tire model is the reason the tires catch the kerbs at bad angles and causes spins. Other games dont have that type of tire flex in their tire model thats why the tires in those games dont respond to the kerbs the same as PCars.

cpcdem
14-03-2019, 02:58
A setup is a setup. There are no exploits that I know only give and take.

About the physics. The majority of the physics are in the tire model. The tire model is what allows you to feel the car. If PCars has the best tire model of any racing game then its hard to compare other sims to PCars because in saying that it has the best tire model you are also saying that it has better physics than any other racing. I have not played these games so I cant compare.

One of the reasons the kerbs are a problem for a lot of people is because of the tire flex in the tire model. Tire flex is one part of the tire model that gives PCars its bragging rights in the tire model/physics part of the game. The tire flex in the tire model is the reason the tires catch the kerbs at bad angles and causes spins. Other games dont have that type of tire flex in their tire model thats why the tires in those games dont respond to the kerbs the same as PCars.

Hmmm...sorry. I do not know what to say...

DECATUR PLAYA
14-03-2019, 04:08
Hmmm...sorry. I do not know what to say...

Im sure you will think of something. Just joking Cpc. Take what I say with a grain of salt. Im talking like I'm Casey or Jussi and Im not by a long shot. We just having a discussion. Most of what I'm saying I read it right here at some time or another or this is at least the way I understand it. We just having a discussion and everybody is entitled to their opinion.

DECATUR PLAYA
14-03-2019, 04:52
Last thing. Project Cars 1 actually tells you how to set your Fast bump and rebound for kerbs. I dont know why they changed the explanation for PCars 2. This has to be done in conjunction with proper spring settings and it will take some trial and error. When you get it right its like the kerbs aren't there. You can totally abuse the kerbs when you get it right. When the car starts to sort of glide over the kerbs in this way then the kerbs dont cause grip loss because they dont upset the weight balance of the car. At this point you actually can run more aggressive ramp angles because the kerbs will not upset your grip.

I uninstalled my PCars 1. If someone could screenshot the damper page fast bump and rebound explanation it tells you in general how to set it.

cpcdem
14-03-2019, 04:54
Im sure you will think of something. Just joking Cpc. Take what I say with a grain of salt. Im talking like I'm Casey or Jussi and Im not by a long shot. We just having a discussion. Most of what I'm saying I read it right here at some time or another or this is at least the way I understand it. We just having a discussion and everybody is entitled to their opinion.

Yeah, agreed, and really I did not want to be rude, but you really made some very bold statements...

Anyway, I think probably there's no point continuing with this, the thread has served its purpose. For you guys that are happy the way it works, you continue to be happy :). For those of us that think there's a problem, or a very big problem, let's hope that the guys at SMS do not see the problem as well and will make sure it is working well in PCARS3 at least. Should be win-win for everybody.

DECATUR PLAYA
14-03-2019, 05:00
Curbs are fine in the game. A lot of it has to do with how you setup your dampeners. Firm rebound helps to force the suspension to understeer when on a curb. Soft rebound will cause the car want to turn itself when it hits the curb. Normally it is just the front rebound you need to make firm to handle the curbs unless you feel the rear end is to unstable on them.

Just remember, if you do rally cross you do the opposite of what you do for circuit racing as you usually want to drift yourself around turns.

This guy explained pretty good back on page 12.

DECATUR PLAYA
14-03-2019, 05:02
Yeah, agreed, and really I did not want to be rude, but you really made some very bold statements...

Anyway, I think probably there's no point continuing with this, the thread has served its purpose. For you guys that are happy the way it works, you continue to be happy :). For those of us that think there's a problem, or a very big problem, let's hope that the guys at SMS do not see the problem as well and will make sure it is working well in PCARS3 at least. Should be win-win for everybody.

Gotcha I'm done.

Bealdor
14-03-2019, 08:02
If you so much as TOUCH a kerb with the Audi R8 in GT3 while even just TOUCHING the throttle, you're gonna be thrown hard to the left. I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem right with a 45 degree ramp angle on the differential, especially considering that the differential gives throttle to the wheels with LESS rolling resistance.

While that's not completely wrong, the (relevant) driving torque on the wheel with MORE grip is increases with higher locking effect.
That's why you're getting a yaw moment that wants to turn your car towards the side with less grip (i.e. curbs).

rich1e I
14-03-2019, 16:30
I came across an interesting part in a review video for a Fanatec wheel base. Not sure what simulation game he's playing, he was talking about AC and iRacing, but he actually describes that the wheel is capable to translate in FFB what many people here consider as unrealistic. The relevant part is at 17:30 but it's better to start at 17:00.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1044&v=gZH48CZqbZI

hkraft300
14-03-2019, 22:11
Yeap, but it's taking the right amount of curb that the physics of PCARS2 require, not that of reality!.

... And the right amount of steering input and entry angle of the vehicle.
What's correct - sims or life? Should sims emulate other sims?

cpcdem
15-03-2019, 00:05
... And the right amount of steering input and entry angle of the vehicle.
What's correct - sims or life? Should sims emulate other sims?

Life is correct of course, but IMO all other sims emulate this aspect in more or less what we see in all those videos of real life, while PCARS2 has a completely different behavior. Of course you guys obviously disagree with that and that's fine!

hkraft300
15-03-2019, 06:20
I don't think we are hitting the kerbs the same as the pros do. It may look like we're taking similar lines in videos, but there are other variables.

Sankyo
15-03-2019, 11:11
I came across an interesting part in a review video for a Fanatec wheel base. Not sure what simulation game he's playing, he was talking about AC and iRacing, but he actually describes that the wheel is capable to translate in FFB what many people here consider as unrealistic. The relevant part is at 17:30 but it's better to start at 17:00.

Can't watch the video now, but the statement is strange. The part that in general is unrealistic in the games we play is what is transmitted into FFB to start with, because we completely lack the seat-of-the-pants and inner ear sensations of driving a car when playing a game. FFB compensates for that to move all those sensations to the steering wheel, so you get information through the wheel that you won't get in real life. So that has nothing to do with what the wheel is capable of, but with what is programmed to be communicated through FFB.

rich1e I
15-03-2019, 12:41
Can't watch the video now, but the statement is strange. The part that in general is unrealistic in the games we play is what is transmitted into FFB to start with, because we completely lack the seat-of-the-pants and inner ear sensations of driving a car when playing a game. FFB compensates for that to move all those sensations to the steering wheel, so you get information through the wheel that you won't get in real life. So that has nothing to do with what the wheel is capable of, but with what is programmed to be communicated through FFB.

I think, either I failed to express myself correctly or you misread my post. Anyways, when you watch the video you'll know what I mean. I was talking about the car behaviour when driving over kerbs, that's what I was referring to when I said 'unrealistic'.

Sankyo
15-03-2019, 12:54
I think, either I failed to express myself correctly or you misread my post. Anyways, when you watch the video you'll know what I mean. I was talking about the car behaviour when driving over kerbs, that's what I was referring to when I said 'unrealistic'.
Okay, I see what you're getting at now. The guy is discussing FFB effects in different games from pC2 (probably iRacing, knowing his background :)), and mentioning the same effects that are discussed in this thread as being wrong perhaps.

IMO the discussion isn't so much about whether the effects are correct in pC2 (I think they are), but whether their magnitude is correct.
My personal 'horror kerb' is the inner kerb at the exit of the first chicane at Imola. You'll have hit the throttle full power by the time you're exiting the corner, and usually you'll touch this inner kerb when doing so. Every car I've driven on the track gets pulled in very aggressively and turned around if you aren't prepared, and I try to avoid this kerb at all costs. I've always wondered whether the effect is too strong, or that there's something in the default set-up of the cars that magnifies the effect. I've never dived into it, though.

cpcdem
15-03-2019, 13:49
IMO the discussion isn't so much about whether the effects are correct in pC2 (I think they are), but whether their magnitude is correct.


Well, OK, if you argue that the magnitude is ten or at lest five times larger than it should, then I would agree with that!

Sankyo
15-03-2019, 14:15
Well, OK, if you argue that the magnitude is ten or at lest five times larger than it should, then I would agree with that!
Is that value based on facts, or on preference for how large the effect should be to be a nice FFB effect without hampering your driving? ;)

I have no idea how large the effect should be, how strongly it depends on car set-up, whether the effect we see in the game is correct given the particular set-ups of the cars in-game, etc. That's why it's good to have this discussion, but it takes careful analysis to come to proper conclusions. Showing a real-life video stating "I don't see in this effect in this video" without a proper comparison of all the important parameters that play a role hardly gets us any further.

Maybe the kerbs in the game are too slippery, maybe the tyre model is too limited to calculate the interaction between kerb and tyre, maybe the differential modelling in the game is imperfect, or too perfect that it magnifies the effect, we simply don't know what we're looking at unless it's investigated systematically. That may be too much or complicated to do without dev involvement, though. I do hope that in pC3 development this will be addressed, and hopefully with the involvement of Ben Collins, Tommy Milner, Nic Hamilton etc. again.

cpcdem
15-03-2019, 15:02
Exactly, we cannot really tell what's causing this. To do so, we would need to play with various physics options in the code, until the problem goes away, so of course it's only the devs that can really do that. We just have shown dozens of videos, showing that the behavior of PCARS2 is completely different that what we are seeing in real life. FWIW, the behavior of every other sim out there is about the same as what we see in the real life videos (except for some extreme cases, which have already been acknowledged as bugs by their devs...). Only thing we can do here is to point out the problem, hoping that it will be working properly in PCARS3.

Seeing that such a very obvious and problematic disparity with reality (IMO) exists in the game after having so much input from real drivers and consultants for such a wide period of time in WMD makes me being not very optimistic. Seeing that several people are saying that the current behavior is fine, makes me even less optimistic. Again, that's only my opinion, no offense to anybody having a completely different opinion to mine, even to those that believe that what I say is utter nonsense, but what I see myself, is that the problem is way too obvious for anybody to can really argue about it. Just IMO.

Zaskarspants
15-03-2019, 15:18
"An opinion is not necesarily correct just because you're willing to die for it." - Oscar Wilde.

cpcdem
15-03-2019, 15:24
"An opinion is not necesarily correct just because you're willing to die for it." - Oscar Wilde.

I did say multiple times, that it's just my opinion. What else should I say to not get such a comment? To me it is very obviously correct, but of course I may end up being wrong. I also very strongly believe that the flat-earthers are completely wrong, but I could end up being wrong on that, too :)

rich1e I
15-03-2019, 16:06
I've just provided a video that shows that this kind of kerb behaviour is indeed present in other sims like AC or iRacing. In fact the guy talks about it as if it's a well known and common thing, but it's not worth to be mentioned apparently. Just ignore it and let's move on :rolleyes:
That's what I meant with 'selective perception' aka confirmation bias. People only want to see things that confirm their thesis/opinion. Things that contradict them are being ignored. It's human but not sensible and doesn't help to get to the bottom of an issue.
Nothing wrong with an Oscar Wilde citation. Nothing offensive in 'such a comment'.

bradleyland
15-03-2019, 17:40
If you go back a few frames before your pic he was half throttle getting on the kerb. He setup his exit off the kerb with his throttle work getting on the kerb. He didnt apex and go immediately back to full throttle. He said himself it was a tricky turn and that there was slick traction on the outside kerb.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying you should be able to blast through the corner full throttle. I'm saying that if you go full throttle on the RA curbs, the car pulls into the curb like a black hole. I'm also saying that behavior isn't exhibited in this video. You don't see any steering correction when he goes full throttle.


As far as how smooth he was on and off the kerbs was due to his driving. He made it look smooth. When he exited that turn in that corner the steering wheel violently snapped to the right as he exited. Quick hands and experience kept that car straight. The kerb itself had a violent effect on the car.

Watch it again. That flick happened before he even touched the curb. The rear got light under braking. Nothing to do with curb behavior.

bradleyland
15-03-2019, 17:46
Again, I think it depends on the car/track combo and on your setup. Just took the AMG GT3 out for a spin at Road America and it really was ok. No massive steering input required to get off the kerb, not even in the last corner. Springs 280 front/140 rear. I was a bit surprised because I recall that kerb to bite you more but it really was fine.
https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e-i/video/71109149

I'm wondering why there seems to be such a difference in the experience we all make in this game. It's not about blindly defending it. It's just, kerbs have never been a huge problem for me.

We can't see your wheel or your telemetry in this video, so it's hard to evaluate how the car behaved over the curbs.

rich1e I
15-03-2019, 18:19
We can't see your wheel or your telemetry in this video, so it's hard to evaluate how the car behaved over the curbs.

Well, you can take my word for it. I'm not here to troll anyone or just tell outright lies. No massive effort required to get off the kerb, at least not in this particular combo. LMPs might be a different story, i don't know.

cpcdem
15-03-2019, 18:50
I came across an interesting part in a review video for a Fanatec wheel base. Not sure what simulation game he's playing, he was talking about AC and iRacing, but he actually describes that the wheel is capable to translate in FFB what many people here consider as unrealistic. The relevant part is at 17:30 but it's better to start at 17:00.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1044&v=gZH48CZqbZI

I just noticed this behavior at 17:30 at Red Bull Ring. I agree, whatever this game was, this behavior was totally ridiculous, not only the behavior over the curb, but even more the way he caught the spin, that was like playing Grid 2 or Need for speed. With iRacing I have no experience, when I am talking about other sims I mean the ones I have actually used myself, RRE, AC, ACC, rFactor2, AM.

If it was iRacing, I haven't heard the best about the level of realism of iRacing anyway, although as I said I have no personal experience. If it was AC (which look to me like it was) then we need to know which version of the AC tire model it was (I see the video was uploaded early 2017...), what car was it, who made it, was it official content, or was it some modder who did it? In my around 100 hours with AC, I do not remember seeing such behavior, I was driving mainly GT3 cars. If this video shows AC behavior of a particular car that is official content, then IMO this one is clearly very wrong as well.

Btw, just to be clear, I am in no way saying that in general PCARS2 is inferior to other sims or anything like that. Only talking about this particular behavior...well ok and in a couple more :), but all sims have their bad moments.

bradleyland
15-03-2019, 19:02
Well, you can take my word for it. I'm not here to troll anyone or just tell outright lies. No massive effort required to get off the kerb, at least not in this particular combo. LMPs might be a different story, i don't know.

I don't mean to imply that you're dishonest, but it's clear that we have a difference of opinion. You might not be perceiving what we might be able to see.

rich1e I
15-03-2019, 19:27
I just noticed this behavior at 17:30 at Red Bull Ring. I agree, whatever this game was, this behavior was totally ridiculous, not only the behavior over the curb, but even more the way he caught the spin, that was like playing Grid 2 or Need for speed. With iRacing I have no experience, when I am talking about other sims I mean the ones I have actually used myself, RRE, AC, ACC, rFactor2, AM.

If it was iRacing, I haven't heard the best about the level of realism of iRacing anyway, although as I said I have no personal experience. If it was AC (which look to me like it was) then we need to know which version of the AC tire model it was (I see the video was uploaded early 2017...), what car was it, who made it, was it official content, or was it some modder who did it? In my around 100 hours with AC, I do not remember seeing such behavior, I was driving mainly GT3 cars. If this video shows AC behavior of a particular car that is official content, then IMO this one is clearly very wrong as well.

Btw, just to be clear, I am in no way saying that in general PCARS2 is inferior to other sims or anything like that. Only talking about this particular behavior...well ok and in a couple more :), but all sims have their bad moments.

I read and heard bad things about the iRacing tyre model too but to me it looks like he was playing AC. Now, what I find very strange is that in the case of PC2 the verdict is very strict and generalizing and the problem must be the physics, and in this case now there seems to be the need to have a differentiated debate --> What tyre model was it? Was it a mod? No talking about the physics, although AC physics are very strange and odd in my view.
So, basically what I criticize is some sort of double standard when it comes to analyzing strange car behaviour. AC has tons and tons (ok hyperbole :p) of strange car behaviour, but if you go read their forums there's the notion of a Kunos supremacy that works like a religious group: You have to believe.

I hate the fact that we're again comparing different games but there has been the underlying tone in this discussion for some time that other games do some things better. Maybe they do in some areas but they're terrible in many others, so I don't know why they should be the reference for realism. Reality is, exhaust pipes do not end in the cockpit, but it seems to be fine with people as long as it sounds somehow 'awesome'.

cpcdem
15-03-2019, 19:50
I read and heard bad things about the iRacing tyre model too but to me it looks like he was playing AC. Now, what I find very strange is that in the case of PC2 the verdict is very strict and generalizing and the problem must be the physics, and in this case now there seems to be the need to have a differentiated debate --> What tyre model was it? Was it a mod? No talking about the physics, although AC physics are very strange and odd in my view.
So, basically what I criticize is some sort of double standard when it comes to analyzing strange car behaviour. AC has tons and tons (ok hyperbole :p) of strange car behaviour, but if you go read their forums there's the notion of a Kunos supremacy that works like a religious group: You have to believe.

I hate the fact that we're again comparing different games but there has been the underlying tone in this discussion for some time that other games do some things better. Maybe they do in some areas but they're terrible in many others, so I don't know why they should be the reference for realism. Reality is, exhaust pipes do not end in the cockpit, but people seem to be fine with it as long as it sounds somehow 'awesome'.

As I said, I do not think AC is generally better than PCARS2, if I thought so, I would be playing AC and not PCARS2... Actually many of the things PCARS2 (sim/em)ulated (I think the correct is "simulated" btw :)) for the first time, are now done in ACC as well. I have many reasons to not want to race in AC and even in ACC, they both have many things that I do not like and I much prefer PCARS2 despite all its bugs and problems.

But in this particular area of curb behavior, I think PCARS2 is way worse (in the sense of how realistic it is), than all the other sims I have played. I am looking for excuses in AC's part in this instance, because this behavior was not what I was personally seeing when I was playing AC (for 2-3 months in a row, NH summer of 2017). Maybe it happened to me a couple times and I do not remember it, because it was very rare...But in PCARS2 I am getting this strange (IMO) behavior over and over again and to me it is very annoying, an immersion killer and just generally feels bad.

I definitely agree that AC and ACC have some bad issues as well. And I find some of the excuses almost hilarious...But this is not the place to bash another game, the proper thing would be to go in their forum and criticize them there, if I had the guts to do it there :). But I do not really care about doing that anyway, I do not play those games, it's PCARS2 that I play. And I would love PCARS3 to be improved A LOT in this area, among others of course.

rich1e I
15-03-2019, 21:47
I definitely agree that AC and ACC have some bad issues as well. And I find some of the excuses almost hilarious...But this is not the place to bash another game, the proper thing would be to go in their forum and criticize them there, if I had the guts to do it there :). But I do not really care about doing that anyway, I do not play those games, it's PCARS2 that I play. And I would love PCARS3 to be improved A LOT in this area, among others of course.

I'm not bashing it. I played it for about 6 months and I actually went to their forums and mentioned my concerns about the discrepancy there was between what people were saying and what was actually happening in the game. Well, after that I saw that avalanche of arrogance rolling over me xD Wasn't expecting people to applaud to me anyway.
If you want to see people bashing other games then, yeah, AC forums is the place to go, from my experience.

MrTulip
17-03-2019, 06:45
I came across an interesting part in a review video for a Fanatec wheel base. Not sure what simulation game he's playing, he was talking about AC and iRacing, but he actually describes that the wheel is capable to translate in FFB what many people here consider as unrealistic. The relevant part is at 17:30 but it's better to start at 17:00.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1044&v=gZH48CZqbZI

Yes, the one after 17:30 is exactly what we are looking at. As how the guy puts it "touching a sticky kind of kerb". Looking at the HUD it is Assetto Corsa (from 17:30 onwards). This might very well be a thing that happen in any advanced enough sim.

In the FAQ of the NTMv7 tyre article from the last year David Kaemmer mentions that in iRacing they use a higher calculating rate when all fours are not on the same surface:

11) What is the sampling rate of your physics model?

360 Hz, is the short answer. But we calculate forces twice per update step, so we do player tire force calculations at least 4x2x360 = 2880 times per second. More if some of the tires are contacting multiple surfaces (i.e. curbs). We use IEEE floats.

https://www.iracing.com/physics-modeling-ntm-v7-info-plus/

Maybe this is what it is all about and what is needed to fix the pulling kerbs. Just more physics rate for these occasions...

David Wright
17-03-2019, 08:07
360 Hz, is the short answer. But we calculate forces twice per update step, so we do player tire force calculations at least 4x2x360 = 2880 times per second. More if some of the tires are contacting multiple surfaces (i.e. curbs).

Where does the 4x come from? The four tyres? Is he really claiming you can multiply the sampling rate by 4 because there are 4 tyres? And I don't understand the implication the physics sampling rate increases depending on the number of surfaces. Sorry but I think its BS.

Stewy32
17-03-2019, 12:20
I just noticed this behavior at 17:30 at Red Bull Ring. I agree, whatever this game was, this behavior was totally ridiculous, not only the behavior over the curb, but even more the way he caught the spin, that was like playing Grid 2 or Need for speed. With iRacing I have no experience, when I am talking about other sims I mean the ones I have actually used myself, RRE, AC, ACC, rFactor2, AM.

If it was iRacing, I haven't heard the best about the level of realism of iRacing anyway, although as I said I have no personal experience. If it was AC (which look to me like it was) then we need to know which version of the AC tire model it was (I see the video was uploaded early 2017...), what car was it, who made it, was it official content, or was it some modder who did it? In my around 100 hours with AC, I do not remember seeing such behavior, I was driving mainly GT3 cars. If this video shows AC behavior of a particular car that is official content, then IMO this one is clearly very wrong as well.

Btw, just to be clear, I am in no way saying that in general PCARS2 is inferior to other sims or anything like that. Only talking about this particular behavior...well ok and in a couple more :), but all sims have their bad moments.

Red Bull Ring isn't in iRacing, so I'm guessing it wasn't iRacing.

MrTulip
17-03-2019, 17:15
Where does the 4x come from? The four tyres? Is he really claiming you can multiply the sampling rate by 4 because there are 4 tyres? And I don't understand the implication the physics sampling rate increases depending on the number of surfaces. Sorry but I think its BS.

No, I don't think either that the physics tick rate is 2880 times per second, but he is an engineer and literal what he says. I thought about it more now, and I understand that what he says is probably exactly what he means and he uses that terminology because he has a total tyre calculations budget for every tick rate to worry about. He does not think in terms of main simulation tick rates or tyre tick rates, he thinks inside of them.

iRacing has the main physics rate for transmission, suspension, chassis etc. of 360 times per second and it is not enough for tyres, of course. So they have raised it at 720 Hz for the tyres alone. I've understood that PCARS2 does this too, so it is not that special in itself yet. But what I think is special is that they may calculate one or more tyres more than that twice in relation to the main tick rate, when it is needed.

I don't have any reason to doubt the word of the main developer of the tyre model and its calculations, especially when he is the grand old man of the racing sim (game) industry.

Offtopic:

That has not prevented him or the iRacing team of doing bad design decisions in the past, though. I mean wrong priorities which parts of the tyre model should have been looked into and in which order; they preferred concentrating on heat dispersion over grip modeling when doing the same mistake as everybody else at the time that the tyre manufacturer statistics should be read, like they didn't have any kind of bias caused by measuring methods and setup.

Some may find it interesting that in the same article FAQ he actually admits the greatest flaw and the 10 year old problem of iRacing tyre physics modeling here:

7) Why not update all the cars at once with the new tires?

Going to the V7 model is like having a new tire manufacturer come into a race series. Cars are often designed around the tires. Changing tire constructions and/or rubber compounds can change a car’s handling quite a lot, even in the real world. So a lot of testing and setup work needs to be done. It’s better to get feedback from a more limited number of cars at first. If there is something in the model that needs to be changed, we can do that without messing up setups for all the cars. Also, more work is necessary in the V7 code to properly do dirt. I think in the long run it will be better, but we’ll probably stick with V6 on dirt for a while. Dirt masks the over-the-limit breakaway that is one of the biggest issues on pavement.

David Wright
17-03-2019, 18:26
No, I don't think either that the physics tick rate is 2880 times per second, but he is an engineer and literal what he says.

I thought about it more and I understand that he says it is probably exactly what he means: the amount of calculation rounds per tick rate for the tyres. iRacing has the main physics rate for transmission, suspension, chassis etc. of 360 times per second and it is not enough for tyres, of course. So they have raised it at 720 Hz for the tyres alone. I've understood that PCARS2 does this too, so it is not that special in itself yet. But what I think is special is that they may calculate one or more tyres more than that twice in relation to the main tick rate.

I don't have any reason to doubt the word of the main developer of the tyre model, especially when he is grand old man of the racing sim (game) industry.



While I share your respect for DK, the way he expresses himself makes me really skeptical. If the sampling rate for the tyres really is 720 Hz then why not simply state this? Instead he just talks about calculations per update step. If the tyre is in contact with 2 surfaces this will presumably require more calculations but that doesn't mean a higher sampling rate.

The PC2 SETA model calculates the forces in the tyre carcass and the contact patch each update step. Is this two calculations?

You could argue a lower sampling rate will give you a smoother ride over a bumpy surface such as a kerb.

Sankyo
18-03-2019, 08:27
Yeah, sounds like DK let some marketing lingo creep into his technical statement :rolleyes: Stating the total number of tyre calculations per second is not the same as physics tick rate, but hey the number is higher so it sounds better :p

Anyway, I don't think that the kerb problem (in pC2, but apparently also in other games) is a tick rate problem. I have zero evidence for my gut feel, but I personally think its a diff issue (it's the only mechanism I know of that can cause a simulated car being swung around like that).

Is there such a thing as differential latency? I would think that a real-life diff does not react instantaneously as all mechanical components are not infinitely stiff, and that may have some sort of dampening effect. Maybe that's playing a role? There's a lot of mechanical simplifications in race sims, and mechanical flex is one of the things not being included (only BeamNG does that, but then only for the chassis AFAIK).

The other thing is that maybe current tyre models don't like slanted surfaces, but I have no idea how that would result in this kerb-pull effect...

hkraft300
18-03-2019, 13:36
Could the tire flex of the model getting confused by kerbs? Could that also explain some slip behaviour over crests/cambered surfaces?
But then the kerb behaviour at Silverstone doesn't seem so bad to me.

MrTulip
18-03-2019, 17:44
While I share your respect for DK, the way he expresses himself makes me really skeptical. If the sampling rate for the tyres really is 720 Hz then why not simply state this? Instead he just talks about calculations per update step. If the tyre is in contact with 2 surfaces this will presumably require more calculations but that doesn't mean a higher sampling rate.

The PC2 SETA model calculates the forces in the tyre carcass and the contact patch each update step. Is this two calculations?

You could argue a lower sampling rate will give you a smoother ride over a bumpy surface such as a kerb.

I do agree that lower sampling rate could also "help" with the issue in a way how any simplifications, such as using plain lookup tables, would do. But it just introduces other kind of anomalies so it is not a good fix for anything when you don't want to resort to just to thermodynamics or pacejka for tyre modeling with their empirically proven flaws.

I made a mistake earlier when I implied that simply increasing tick rate would solve anything, and I don't mean that PC2 SETA model would not do the same as iRacing. Staring at the tick rate was not very wise when the actual maths done between the updates is what matters and those can be completely independent of the update rate.

But we don't know how many and what kind of calculations per update step iRacing does, as Kaemmer uses "at least" in his sentence, and we don't know how many PCARS2 does either (or at least it didn't hit my eye on the dev forums). I think we are out of our depth here, and probably only who could give out some definite answers would be Andrew Weber and David Kaemmer having a panel about it. They think inside of the tick rate all the time while the rest of us think mostly outside of it.

My feelings about this kerbs handling issue (I think it is one) is that it probably is a real phenomenon that is far too pronounced in PCARS2, as already mentioned in this thread. But I appreciate many other characteristics of PCARS2 tyre model so much more than those of iRacing that I am not too bothered about the odd kerb here and there.

I haven't tested NTMv7 on iR (last one was in fall 2018) so no comments about that yet. We'll see when the Mustang or some other car with enough weight, power and grooved tyre gets updated to it. Maybe we can witness pulling kerbs even on iRacing on some cars when the cork is out of the bottle with the increased lateral grip of NTMv7! ;)

Sankyo
19-03-2019, 14:26
Could the tire flex of the model getting confused by kerbs?
Was thinking along those lines as well. Maybe a slanted surface results in the contact patch doing funky things (maybe it cannot deal well with the car being tilted w.r.t. the road surface) and with that grip disappearing for the tyre touching the kerb. Then again, it doesn't seem to be happening for all (slanted) kerbs in the game?

hkraft300
19-03-2019, 23:03
Was thinking along those lines as well. Maybe a slanted surface results in the contact patch doing funky things (maybe it cannot deal well with the car being tilted w.r.t. the road surface) and with that grip disappearing for the tyre touching the kerb. Then again, it doesn't seem to be happening for all (slanted) kerbs in the game?

Does it happen for FWD/AWD cars, on throttle?
Like the clip cup or megane race cars. If it happens on throttle then maybe it is a tire/kerb interaction. But the front doesn't lose grip in GT race cars over the kerbs, the car still follows the steering and rotates.
So, thinking along the same lines: it points to the rear diff as you suggested.
That's if we're missing any factors in the mechanics of kerb hopping.