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Thread: Invalid Lap Time & Next Lap Invalidated Toggle Option

  1. #21
    WMD Member flymar's Avatar
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    But "valid" lap times only matter during TT and qualify. You can still see the time in lap info?
    If you think that doing the next lap is waste of the precious time in your life I don't know why you are playing the game, because it's about doing laps over and over again
    Btw, I know about the issues in some places track limits are too hars or too loose and I think we should aim for eliminating those places and not the whole system.
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  2. #22
    Kart Driver Bounty_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioForce View Post
    Bounty is right. Its a kind of penalty and has to disappear when penalties are off.
    Quote Originally Posted by flymar View Post
    But "valid" lap times only matter during TT and qualify. You can still see the time in lap info?
    If you think that doing the next lap is waste of the precious time in your life I don't know why you are playing the game, because it's about doing laps over and over again
    Btw, I know about the issues in some places track limits are too hars or too loose and I think we should aim for eliminating those places and not the whole system.
    I think there are as many opinions on how invalid lap times should work, how players should approach invalid lap times, and what penalties should entail as there are people who love and enjoy this game. I also think it's a wonderful thing to see so many people expressing theirs. My intent with this thread is aimed at the fact that being a form of penalty, it should be turned off when flags/penalties are toggled "off". I don't think this would in any way whatsoever eliminate the whole system.

  3. #23
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    What frustrates me is going v slightly wide at some long tracks say the Porsche Curves at Le Mans and having the next lap invalidated when the next lap is 20-30 seconds away, no possible chance of a cheat for the next lap at that corner.

  4. #24
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    Lightbulb Breaks immersion and realism - please read the arguments

    I am impressed by everything Project cars has been able to achieve, the balance is not easy. I hope the following helps a little bit for it not to be considered as a hollow comment, but as a respectful constructive point to be considered, at least, I'd be hopeful it may be:

    I was a pro driver (Karting, Formula 3, and touring cars) since 1990 to 1998, I still go to do some track days and some laps in 125cc shifters in Mexico, and still involved in motorsports, but furthermore, in 2005, worked with ISI on a project to promote sim racing with pro drivers (GPLegacy.com) and we managed to produce some special developments with rfactor, not the regular mods you see around, but thoroughly researched and tested physics and systems that helped drivers like Memo Rojas (Grand Am), Chapulin Diaz (latest drive on ALMS, previously Grand Am and Champ Car), Checo Perez (currently F1) and pretty much the whole escuderia Telmex drivers from Mexico as well as the Mexican A1GP team in training, to this day, what we started is in place in Argentina with professional sim racing to real driving systems (www.vracer.com.ar), I was also one of the editors of review magazine Autosimsport which back in the day was the only editorial system for pro reviews of sim racing software.

    I mention the above not to brag, but on the contrary, just to add my two cents to this particular point about this system of invalidated laptimes through track delimitation:

    The balance of the game is so brilliantly executed that the immersion is great, until you go wide in a turn or miss a breaking point, and suddenly this piece of code (programming) breaks the immersion by reminding you on screen: "Cut Track, Lap time invalidated"... it's a complete "go back to gaming mode" sad thing...

    Now, it is understandable, however, here are some points to consider:

    1.- Surface and loss of grip
    The game is, again, so well made, that as in real life, as a driver, you get your penalty by losing control of your car every time you lose grip with your tires, whether on a kerb, grass, dirt, or bumpy surface... This has been brilliantly achieved. In earlier games or games not well programmed, indeed, it may be an advantage or a cheat, to cut corners by doing this if the materials and objects were smooth as the track itself, but you can try this in Project cars and you will see that you will hardly ever gain time even if you do it on purpose.

    Most of these objects already cause a lot of drag (slows your car) just like a sand-trap, or gravel-trap, just like it happens, so you have that as an added point, not to mention the real objects that are well positioned in the tracks that will hamper your progress as security systems (tire-walls, advertisements, etc)

    2.- Loss of challenge
    Contrary to what it may seem, in racing the main challenge is not to have "the cleanest, all 4 wheels on the road at all times" laps, of course it "would be" in the idyllical sense, but that's not how it works in real life when you're going for the edge, and it affects the way you will handle yourself even psychologically inside of the car -- yes, even in a game. When you're going for the fastest times and going to find the limit on a turn for instance, you will go for a further breaking point, and will miss the apex a few times, you will run wide a few times, you will probably hit too much of a kerb that will make you struggle with the car or have to compensate by countersteering, all of these are part of real life racing.

    After racing for a while, I found myself not going for that edge in game, even when the AI clearly missed those points every now and then, because no one wants to see that "warning" or "words" lap after lap, even if you're not going for "lap times", it's a constant reminder that "you're doing something you're not supposed to" even if you're losing time by accident (running wide, coliding with another car, struggling in overtaking maneuvers where you may hit a kerb and for a second get off track and having to return), so you become a gamer trying to stay within the limits of the "game", not a "driver" trying to "race" to the best of your ability.

    3.- Loss of atractiveness versus other software like Assetto Corsa or SimBin games
    Hotlaps and going for lap times is a big part of racing, it's not just for the regular gamer, it tries to attract - and Project cars, I would say, is probably the most successful and best balanced game to do this - both gamers, car enthusiasts, sim racers, and drivers alike, so you can't take the challenge of going for lap records for granted or treat it as a "minor" feature in game:

    Consider you are going for laptimes in Nordschleiffe, laps that take over 7 minutes (at best, and average over 9 to 10 minutes), where you may have a perfect lap for 19 kilometers, and you spin off in one of the turns, you still can recover in that lap, and chances are you may still get a "decent" time, even against your friends if you're playing with them at home for instance (which is something some of my racing friends, track marshals, and others do at home every now and then), and it happens with all of the guys going for "that" hotlap. Having the lap "tainted" or unregistered because out of 10 minutes, you had 1 mistake, and having to do 1 more lap of another 10 minutes... you do the math. We preferred doing the hotlaps on Assetto Corsa and get rid of the grief that feature brought on.

    All in all, the game is brilliant, don't break the immersion and the great work by not making this feature not possible to toggle "off"

    In terms of what I saw with some comments about "having a lap not being fair" because you "did it by cutting the track" or something that sounded like "you didn't deserve that time", well, in that case, if things are going to those extremes, those laps shouldn't count if you were racing with aids either, or with the racing line turned on, or steering aid, or even stability control, those pose a lot more advantages than a cut corner, so let's be a little more balanced in those comments

    Congratulations on an AWESOME and well balanced game, I hope this message helps in some way and that it can reach the right people.

    Best wishes,
    Sergio Bustamante
    www.gplegacy.com

  5. #25
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    Should i be getting a 5 sec penalty there online?
    Some areas are to extreme.

  6. #26
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    3 corners before the start line at Norschleife at the end of the long straight if you do a mistake your NEXT LAP TIME will be invalidated. But why? You cant get any profit from that for the next lap. Realy this is the most annoying thing in the game. Okay take my next lap time if i am out of the track at the first corner to get higher speed in the straight or something like that. But why would you take away my next lap time when i am far away from the finish line?
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  7. #27
    Superkart Pilot Kruleworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker777 View Post
    "next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.
    while i do hate it, i have to grudgingly admit it's making me a better racer
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnerss View Post
    I am impressed by everything Project cars has been able to achieve, the balance is not easy. I hope the following helps a little bit for it not to be considered as a hollow comment, but as a respectful constructive point to be considered, at least, I'd be hopeful it may be:

    I was a pro driver (Karting, Formula 3, and touring cars) since 1990 to 1998, I still go to do some track days and some laps in 125cc shifters in Mexico, and still involved in motorsports, but furthermore, in 2005, worked with ISI on a project to promote sim racing with pro drivers (GPLegacy.com) and we managed to produce some special developments with rfactor, not the regular mods you see around, but thoroughly researched and tested physics and systems that helped drivers like Memo Rojas (Grand Am), Chapulin Diaz (latest drive on ALMS, previously Grand Am and Champ Car), Checo Perez (currently F1) and pretty much the whole escuderia Telmex drivers from Mexico as well as the Mexican A1GP team in training, to this day, what we started is in place in Argentina with professional sim racing to real driving systems, I was also one of the editors of review magazine Autosimsport which back in the day was the only editorial system for pro reviews of sim racing software...

    Nonsense. Nobody comes onto a forum with one post and throws up their racing CV. I call shenanigans.

    Secondly, if you were a pro driver you would know how racing actually works, and this is not how it works. Lap times are not invalidated for skimming the edges, and next laps are NEVER invalidated. As a big motorsports fan (would you like me to submit a CV of all the racing I watch?) I've never heard of or seen this in any type of racing - other than mountain biking where you're disqualified for going through the tape and not re-entering the track at the same point, hardly applicable here.

    The problem with "this and next lap times invalidated" is that you have to do the whole track again for no reason! That's especially annoying at long tracks like Le Mans. It's complete nonsense. I could maybe, maybe understand invalidating a current lap time for skipping a corner (although every other racing game ever made has sorted this by simply slowing you down for a few seconds, or making the terrain off-track "sticky" - see Forza 4). It's a pathetic, badly conceived game design and it needs to be sorted by an update pronto.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker777 View Post
    "next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.
    This. I could live with current lap, but making you do the whole track over again is absolutely pointless (and completely unrealistic for what is supposedly a "sim").

  10. #30
    GT3 Pilot Schnizz58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrook View Post
    This. I could live with current lap, but making you do the whole track over again is absolutely pointless (and completely unrealistic for what is supposedly a "sim").
    The track limits in practice sessions are pretty lenient to begin with. And who really cares if a lap gets invalidated in a practice session? For time trials and qualifying sessions I have absolutely no problem with strict track limits but it should invalidate the lap only if you gained an advantage by leaving the track.

    I will grant you that the track limits are pretty strange in some places. You can get a track limit warning for running through the gravel. Who drives through a gravel trap to gain time (aside from the AI)? Hitting the gravel is its own penalty. And I have had laps invalidated for seemingly no reason when I'm sure I still had two tires on the track.
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