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Thread: MULTIVITZ - Tuning Thread

  1. #241
    Superkart Pilot
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    Glad to see you back. what is this Jaunt you mention, please elaborate.
    DS4 SETTINGS- Mode 2,on,on,off. All deadzone's-0, SteeringSen-10, ThrottleSen-50, BrakeSen-50, ClutchSen-50. SpeedSensitivity-45, Controller FS-50.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadzone View Post
    Glad to see you back. what is this Jaunt you mention, please elaborate.
    Thanks, I have been around 'Seek and you shall find', don't allow any more complex versions of this saying reduce the massively powerful truth this saying has.

    Horses get driven and you can go for a jaunt on one.
    The reins are used to turn the horses head in time with the gallop of it's legs(the horse transferes weight to it's hooves!) The bobbing motion of the ride is called the jaunt. It has rhythm, pace(time spent in the motions), limits, and events.

    In a car the steering wheel turns the car in time to the weight transferes, the rhythm comes from your driving style and the road, the pace is controlled but the dampers(and other things), limits are the tyres grip, events are interruptions to the jaunt, say inpatient driving style!?

    Try and find some articles about these aspects of car tuning and get back to me for a chat. That way we both can add more and help others better.

    The jaunt could be said ' its the collective sum of the ride frequency and it's behavour! '.
    The cars ride frequency gets tuned to the track for improved results? I hope this helps.
    Last edited by MULTIVITZ; 01-07-2015 at 12:54.
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  3. #243
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    MULTIVITZ©

    OK don't get too excited, it's only me. Howz yo feel out there?
    I bet you all feel pretty much the same as you did last time you were here. I mean energy levels, skill, endurance. I'm not talking about how confident you've all become, what mountains you've conquered, or tunnels you've been through!
    How do you feel, no, not wiv me hands. How connected are the feelings you're getting from your environment? You know when you do sport driving it requires nutrients to feed and nourished the connect between the contact points and your brain. The spine has brain cells in. The body in turn is in a sea of energy plasma called the air around us.
    Halides are building up in all and everyone of us. In every cell. Every cell needs Iodine, but you knew that? Every cell needs Boron, google it. You won't find quick info! Your brain won't grow altered protein(brain plasticity) to learn new skills without Boron. You won't remember new tracks fast, if at all. You won't remember where you left your car keys to even go for a drive! And we all thought that's normal lol
    A friend once said to me 'what's the point in owning a car, you drive from A to B and back again, you don't get anywhere!'. I think he was missing the point, driving is a journey of experience, not transport, get on a bus for that. If one can't remember the journey, or learn from it then the point of experience is marred (google it, are you paying attention at the back?!).
    Borons only found at a few places on earth, pesticides remove it from soil, fact. I'm regrowing my teeth. Ha ha ha... I am.

    Anyway that's enough rambling. Now. To business, as you know the driving school got closed down due to lack of interest....I know I know the dolly birds and flash décor didn't work. We tried everything from over inflated claims, sorry lieing, about telemetry apps, free pit works, career bonuses, you name it. Nothing seemed to work. But there's hope in the future, no it's not Hamilton self drive assist, no I told you turn the F#@£in things off, and use the force Luke.
    Word on the circuit is there's this rich guy who luvs cars and has access to loads of 'em. I've managed to get a meeting with his top brass next month, let's hope he don't shitout at the last minute.
    Last edited by MULTIVITZ; 12-08-2017 at 10:53. Reason: Adding content.
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  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jussi Viljami Karjalainen View Post
    I only made the calculator so that the numbers in the setup screen actually translate into something meaningful and comparable between cars, and to remove as much unnecessary testing with guesswork setups that are never going to make sense (like racing car setups with 100% higher rear spring suspension frequencies, or locked down supercritical damping, or completely underdamped settings, etc.). If you don't know what the numbers actually mean for the car you can easily end up testing more or less ridiculous combinations for hours on end trying to blindly find something that'll work, especially if you try to employ something you've learned with one car in another, which might well have completely different geometry, that you can't check. It's kind of like looking at how the tyre temperatures are coming out when adjusting for tyre pressure and camber instead of just guessing, giving you actual metrics to work with.

    It's also really useful for finding specific issues with cars. Like at one point the BMW M3 GT4 had significant issues while entering corners with bumps on the entrance, or just in situations where you were being rough with it. It could have been caused by many things, like too rear biased springs, too much rear rebound damping causing oversteer in braking or lift-off situations, too much rear bump damping causing the rear to break loose in the bumps, diff issues, or many other things, but when I fed the setup into my calculator, I instantly saw that the rear damping was just too low (average was significantly under 50% critical at 3 in/s), it couldn't control the rear springs properly and the tail wanted to oscillate a lot longer than the front. So I just found damper values that made sense for the situation and instantly the car was fixed, handling bumps with ease. At one point the BMW M3 E30 Gr.A had issues with very sudden and terminal understeer, even if the actual front end grip level was fairly high. It just wanted to lose the front grip suddenly. On top of that the car was overall bouncy and unstable when hitting disturbances with only one side. Feed it into the calculator, and I instantly saw that the front suspension frequency was 60% higher than the rear and just massively stiff overall, which robbed the front end of any progressiveness, the damping was very low which made the car oscillate too long (bouncy), and the anti-roll bars were overly stiff, which made hitting asymmetric bumps disturb the other side of the car too harshly (suspension wasn't independent anymore). Fix the front bias to something more sensible, up the dampers to more suitable range, and lower the ARBs, and the car became a ton more progressive and dynamic during entries, didn't get bothered by bumps, and maintained stability over kerbs etc. One of the LMP2 cars felt significantly more difficult to drive than the others even when set up similarly, it was less settled over bumps and overall less calm and trust inspiring, the calculator revealed that even though the weight, weight distribution, motion ratios, springs and damper settings were almost identical with another car, the damper digression knee was different, which caused it to need very different damper settings to hit the same actual damping rates as the other car. Adjust them again with that taken into account, and the car was just as great as the other one (and trying to replicate the "bad" setup in the other car also gave similar problems). There were tons of situations like these where I could fix problems in car behavior by just looking at how the suspension metrics came out. Trying to figure those out by adjusting one thing, then driving a few laps, adjusting another, driving a few laps again, etc., would have taken days, instead it took minutes. =)

    It's not a cure all, and mostly it's useful for finding a nice baseline to start from, but it can be immensely helpful at preventing "silly stuff". =)

    Personally, after I've gotten a baseline for a car that I'm comfortable with, I've mostly found that other than aero and gearing (and diff on occasion) adjustments there's really not too much to be gained by fiddling too much with the springs and dampers, a car that corners neutrally and handles bumps well on one track tends to corner neutrally and handle bumps well on other tracks as well. Occasionally stiffening up a bit for a smooth track or softening the setup for a bumpy track can be beneficial, but even then I like to maintain the same front/rear and damping bias in the car, to retain the basics of the handling even though the stiffness changes, making it easier for me to get comfortable with the car on the new track. =)


    I think you're playing down the black art. I was one of the consultants for the Fms4 tuning calculator, it's not bad, it gave the user a base line tune. Something a game developer would spend time doing, so the players could have a coherent starting point to tune from in a realistic POV. Oh no, we don't see that? We don't see that because we don't really know what we're doing, do we. I've seen it time and time again, some cars are spot on, most are set up by a child, probably on a child's wage!
    We contacted one of the fathers of down force, we did(I'm not going to drop names). And we had a chat, and it went straight away into suspension frequencies. Great, we thought, thank you very much. The initial excitement wore off when we introduced driving style into the equation.
    When anyone says it's a Black Art, it means things are hidden, the moments, the fluctuations, air pressure, heat, driver intention/reluctance, chassis flex, setup anomalies. I would go on, but then you sit behind the wheel can you see any of the things in that brief list? No? Can YOU see any thing on that list? Maybe with your eyes if you take them off the road for a bit? Driving blind is fun(please, not on a public road!!).
    So there's major factors effecting the limits of our car performance, so let's rigup some sensors and aquisition the data to monitor, in real time, for some illuminance on the matter. Ah ha, there they are, quick, gather around, feast your eyes on the data patterns.
    NO. Sorry, but no. All things on that list, and more CAN be seen. But but Multi' you're wrong blah blah blah.........
    Even on a simulator all things can be seen, it takes some time, I'm quick, some teams take days to spot and solve. I have video's of me tuning the Capri in a simulator called Project Cars. Thirty minuites for a good baseline tune suited to the chassis that withstands a flamboyant flaying from the controls, without excess slip. It's called 'Crashproof' in the art. Understeer gives a similar effect,(Audi, bringing understeer to the masses(C Harris)).
    I see with my eye's, I look at a car and see it's surfaces, aero add ons, suspension design, wheelbase, tyre sizes, brake size, ride height, etc. See what you've got, take what you see to your heart. Except vortex's, they make you feel happy, you get them in turbos, airflows off sharp edges, inside pipes, in cavities, off your door mirrors, in ya cup o tea......to be any good at a black art you need to be outside the box looking with all your senses, on a simulator we can surmise, we understand how moments of forces interact through the different components, of the car, and their mathematical proportional relationship to each other. Don't we?
    Surmising means having an idea and testing it based on the evidence, then seeing results and testing again, reiteration, it's a simulator. A suspension test rig can do things like that, but it has trouble with vortexes. A suspension calculator won't find the final pieces/adjustment to a track pacific setup, bumpstop behaviour, aero trim, tyre wear, fuel load effect, and certainly not Aero load! You can put together some software that works for a vehicle, and we'll see some for simulators. But the icing on the cake comes from the humble experience of the tune/engineer, the surmiser, the one who looks at what they've got, and asks.
    Remember the question is far more important than the answer. Has anyone mentioned road spring damper dynamic Threshold's yet anyone....put up your hand.....anyone?





    (I hate using hints, so passive, so last century lol)



    Don't worry Ian, I'm not not running mock, it's just the forces interacting with the plasma(hint- that's where the dynamic memories are stored, NOT in one's brain matter, contrary to popular belief!)
    Last edited by MULTIVITZ; 12-08-2017 at 16:50. Reason: Trying not to be grammaphobic?

  5. #245
    GTE Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Suspension calculator will get you pointing in the right direction.
    It's the experience of the engineer, the wisdom of the black art, that'll get you on the bull's-eye.

    I very much appreciate Jussi's calculator. Got me in the ball park. After that it's testing and fine tuning to dial the car in.
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
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  6. #246
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    Everyone should use the calculator and it will only get better, you heard it here first?
    As mentioned by others, there's different ways a suspension can be setup. I'm referring to high bound damping vs high rebound. They can both be hard or soft, they can both allow the vehicle to lean over into a corner or resist body roll. They both effect frequency, but in essence Jaunt is the real takeaway. Wouldnt you agree? Jaunt is your cars dynamic ride height, that is your rake, your diffuser stance, your CoG that's waiting to do work on the axle. It's the tuners job to project the plan in setup and test execution. What does the tuner want the axles to do, how will they effect each other, how flexible are the drivers skills and attitude. Has he got balls, can she grow some? Where is the CoG going to? An in depth tuning tutorial for the calculator would be immense, but unless the user is well rounded in car knowledge using it could be troublesome, almost pointless? Pc has been a learning curve for everyone. For me , it seemed half baked, with lots of fundamentals missing, they were missed, not all on purpose, some couldn't be helped, we all tried our best.

    Now if you haven't heard of Damper Threshold tuning put ya hand down! Anyone.....?


    Shut up Luke, I know the class hasn't started, it's like one of those authoritarian open university type online courses, you know the ones where you get taught a complete load of rubbish then have to parrot it back to test your memory. No this ain't like one of those....sorry I'm getting confused with public schooling, my bad!
    Last edited by MULTIVITZ; 12-08-2017 at 12:16.

  7. #247
    GTE Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Calculator is useless if you don't know how a difference in frequency will affect your balance, or what critical damping means.

    Aero-heavy cars experience CoP changes with rake and ride height, so controlling/influencing that brings obvious benefits. How important is "jaunt" for less Aero-dependant cars?

    I suck at testing execution. It's all well and good at 90%, but I don't have the talent not pace to keep the car at 100% to see what the car is really doing.
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
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  8. #248
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    Quite, but you can't condem it that easily. When you know what you're doing, like me, tuning setup calculators can be the dog's dangleyz. You still need appropriate testing and assessment, which is fun for all involved, and everyone gets to sample the merchandise afterwards.

    Jaunt, the dance of being out of control, the collection of harmonic undulations. It appears as the road bullies your ride into submission. Over harsh steering commitment can cause excessive jaunt, when uncommitted and relaxed style is used, speed can be gained after timing the jaunt for the exit/direction change. It should be felt all the time in your elbows and seat, the brake pedal gets crazy abuse.
    Correct jaunt can gain small cornering G's, it depends on the track. Bottoming out can do various things to the jaunt, it usually kills it!


    Don't worry about the Centre of Pressure, that goes forward the faster you go. That's why a heavy set front wing is silly for high speeds, but with modern aero packages and careful air flow/service flow management, car handling is kept balanced under high aero applications. Don't forget tuning the bumpstops can regulate the rake in corner. Don't mention it.....

    90%..... any more of that and you, me and my ruler are having a driving lesson, military style!
    Last edited by MULTIVITZ; 12-08-2017 at 20:06.

  9. #249
    GTE Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Ohh. Like trail braking. Get the nose turned. Get the rear to squat on exit.

    I hate driving the NASCAR.

    Damper Code is improved for pc2. You'll have fun with that.
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
    G29 settings (PC1).
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