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Thread: Baseline Wheel FFB Values - Google Sheet & FCM. Universal

  1. #1401
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpmmuc View Post
    I tried this calc sheet and also the FCM v1.2 tool. After using the calculated parameters the FFB was in general very weak with spikes on higher forces like curbes, summed up there was no natural feel.

    I think the calculations are done in a good way but the input data from wheelcheck are only acceptable or useful for wheels with high internal friction and weak forces. The forces are measured without any counter forces and only depend on the amount of degrees from the wheel rotation.

    This means for my Thrustmaster T300 and for my TS-PC Racer the wheel reached very fast a high degree of rotation which results in the tools in a big reduction of the forces in low range and a nearly no reduction in high range. I tried also the internal force test from the FCM tool, where my wheel was after 40% of the force test at the end of the 900 degree rotation so it bounced already at the end. This was absolutely not usable.
    Attachment 236677

    Wheelcheck output used in the calc sheet:
    Attachment 236679

    The result was a very dead FFB without a proper feeling of normal driving forces but high spikes e.g. on curbes.

    After searching about this issue I found an article on racedepartment where someone compared the base wheelchecker test with a real force test. He came to the same conclusion, that if he measures only the wheel rotation based on the wheel friction as input for a LUT file for AC it "points rather strongly to there being a fundamental flaw with using the DeltaX approach in WheelCheck".

    So this means to get better results some counter forces are needed ... to hold it simple I tried the Damping Force setting Friction in wheelcheck.
    Attachment 236678

    I used this as input to the calc sheet and also in the FCB tool which resulted in more or less identical values for the calculated values (which was not the case when I used the input values from wheelcheck without friction).
    Attachment 236680Attachment 236681

    So at the end I had alive force feedback with a natural feeling. Also I think that wheelcheck needs proper determining factors to get usable results.

    PS: Before this experiment I used no scoop values and had a good FFB, but now with this "Friction" scoop values it's a little bit better and there is more feedback from the road.
    PPS: Just a add-on to this FFB mega thread
    This. Setting wheel check to friction and then running the step log test, I imported the CSV file to FCM. Put those numbers into PC and BAM! So good. Much much better feeling now. Im using Jack Spade classic with no soft clip on a DFGT. Thank you! Feels like RRE to me and enjoy its feedback better than Assetto Corsa.
    The following user likes this Post: Gamer82678


  2. #1402
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpmmuc View Post
    ...So at the end I had alive force feedback with a natural feeling...
    Quote Originally Posted by naondave View Post
    ...BAM! So good. Much much better feeling now...
    Since both of you have a good FFB now, it would be kind of you to post your whole windows driver, globals and car FFB setting. I could link them in the first post. It could help other users looking for a template for their wheel.

    Thanks,
    Last edited by poirqc; 09-01-2017 at 13:06.
    All platform and wheels: Official Force Feedback Guide
    Info: pCars 2 Tire Pressure Official Guideline | Wheel FFB guide

    Steering: G27 | My In-game FFB:Immersive 100/30/60/5

  3. #1403
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirqc View Post
    Since both of you have a good FFB now, it would be kind of you to post your whole windows driver, globals and car FFB setting. I could link them in the first post. It could help other users looking for a template for their wheel.

    Thanks,
    This is for DFGT

    Logitech Profiler:

    Overall Strength 100
    Spring Effect 0
    Enable Centering Spring checked but at 0 percent
    Degrees of rotation 900
    Allow game to adjust checked

    In Game Settings:

    Force Feedback 100 percent.

    TF = 75 - fixed
    DRR = 0.04
    DRF = 0.01
    RA Gain = 1.50
    RA Bleed = 0.10
    RA Clamp = 0.85
    SK = 0.65
    SR = 0.10
    SC Half = 0
    SC Full = 0
    PWM = 0.00
    PWMS = 0.00
    Steering Gain = 145

    Everything else default.

    Jack Spade Classic FFB folder.
    The following user likes this Post: poirqc


  4. #1404
    WMD Member jpmmuc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirqc View Post
    Since both of you have a good FFB now, it would be kind of you to post your whole windows driver, globals and car FFB setting. I could link them in the first post. It could help other users looking for a template for their wheel.

    Thanks,
    Thrustmaster Control Panel:

    Gesamtstärke/Overall Strength: 60 TS-PC Racer / 80 T300
    Konstant/Constant: 100
    Periodisch/Periodic: 100
    Federung/Spring: 80
    Dämpfung/Damper: 60

    Project Cars:
    Force Feedback 100

    Tire Force 75
    Per Wheel Movement 0.00
    Per Wheel Movement Squared 0.00
    Wheel Position Smoothing 0.02
    Deadzone Removal Range 0.10
    Deadzone Removal Falloff 0.01
    Linkage Scale 0.00
    Relative Adjust Gain 1.50
    Relative Adjust Bleed 0.10
    Relative Adjust Clamp 0.85
    Scoop Knee 0.83
    Scoop Reduction 0.18
    Soft Clipping (Half Input) 0.00
    Soft Clipping (Full Output) 0.00
    Menu Spring Strength 0.40
    Slow Speed Spring Coefficient 0.90
    Slow Speed Spring Saturation 0.90
    Steering Gain 1.00 TS-PC / 1.15 T300

    Jack Spade: Folder 2. Fy+SopLateral Mix
    Wheel: Fanatec Podium DD Wheelbase, HE Sprint Pedals, Fanatec H-Shifter
    System: Win 10 (2004) / Intel Core i9 9900K / Geforce RTX 2080TI
    Monitor: 35" 21:9 (3440x1440)
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    The following 2 users likes this Post: geffect, poirqc


  5. #1405
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    If you are using the DFGT it might be a good idea to use Folder 10, the reduced vertical load one. DFGT doesn't handle strong curbs too well and folder 10 helps with that. Plus, less forces to mix into the FFB, I think it's cleaner with this folder.
    Windows 10-64bit, Intel i2500, AMD R9 380 4GB, 8GB RAM, 40'' TV, Accuforce V2, Fanatec V3i pedals.
    The following user likes this Post: Jack Spade


  6. #1406
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    Quote Originally Posted by konnos View Post
    If you are using the DFGT it might be a good idea to use Folder 10, the reduced vertical load one. DFGT doesn't handle strong curbs too well and folder 10 helps with that. Plus, less forces to mix into the FFB, I think it's cleaner with this folder.
    Thank you. This improved it even more. Im set till PC2.

  7. #1407
    Superkart Pilot vahagn_hayk's Avatar
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    very interesting post and experiment (might result in staring from scratch in regards to linearity tests):
    http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...ptions.124937/
    The following user likes this Post: GrimeyDog


  8. #1408
    WMD Member could_do_better's Avatar
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    Have you tried eliminating the scoop settings?
    CPU: i5 3570 @ 4.2GhZ | RAM: 8GB DDR3 @ 1866 MHz | Board: Gigabyte Z77-DH3
    OS: Win10 pro 64bit | Wheel: G25
    GP: GTX 960 4Gb
    SDD: Samsung Evo 850 512Gb

  9. #1409
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    Hi guys,

    I've spent quite a bit of time reading through this thread over the last couple of days and am extremely grateful to the active community that has been contributing towards this topic. Today I spent a few hours running laps in a familiar car on a familiar track back to back with Jack Spade's tweaker files to see which feedback took my fancy. I did 3 laps on each set and then went back and re-lapped the 2 FFB folders that had the fastest lap times which were (3. and 7. respectively)

    I have seen plenty of CSW v2 users on here but no CS Elite users (except one person who mentioned his friend I need a bit of help dialing in a good setup for the CS Elite and would like to put together a page for CS Elite users once I have some good info to contribute.

    I started out with the CSW v2 clubsport settings on the first page of Jack Spade's tweaker file post. Then I went and download the wheel tool from the first page of this thread and outputted the 4 csv files. I couldn't get it to load into the excel spreadsheet. I tried numerous times, copy it carefully from notepad into the green cell but ended up with a yellow bar of div/0 like I saw some other people in this thread have. Putting the data into the FCM app I ended up with the following data.

    CS Elite Wheelbase

    Edit: Cannot yet post images of CS Elite force curves due to being a new member without sufficient posts. Will update when I have the ability

    Suggested FCM Data

    Linear regression (R2): 0.9940
    Soft Clip(Half): 0.0
    Soft Clip (Full): 1.0
    Scoop Knee: 0.76
    Scoop Reduction: 0.51
    Deadzone Removal: 0

    I then proceeded to apply the soft clip / hard clip / scoop knee and scoop reduction to my global settings.

    So far I have two questions...

    1) When trying the different tweaker folders, if I like the given characteristics of one what is the best way to 'up the volume' but maintain the characteristics? Raising tyre force slightly from 75, adjusting relative gain from 145?

    2) I left the other global settings either stock (from the classic profile) or to what I had already changed as per jack spade's recommendation on the first page of the tweaker set

    I was hoping to get the CS Elite data into the excel spreadsheet to have more of a play around with a few of the other dials in tandem. SO where to from here?

    Cheers,
    Last edited by JustJoshin; 17-01-2017 at 11:36.

  10. #1410
    GT3 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vahagn_hayk View Post
    very interesting post and experiment (might result in staring from scratch in regards to linearity tests):
    http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...ptions.124937/

    I Agree 100% with this Article!!! There is Simply No Calculating tool that can Replace Touch and Feel Measurements...I have Tried the Tools but Could Never Get anything Close to a Natural Feeling....No Matter What Calculating tool the End Result is always the same you have to dial in the Final Feel By Hand anyway...

    IMO Its Much easier to figure out what each setting to adjust and set the FFB By Feel from Scratch and ignore the tools...Each wheel will be Slightly Different and Every 1 processes and Feels FFB in a Different way... this Fact alone Negates FFB tools for the Large Majority of wheel users Which is why i came up with a basic set of Globals that work for every wheel without Clipping and Allows the User to set the In Car settings to Bring out the Feel they like Most...with My Settings plug in the Globals and Forget about it...the only choice to be made based on wheel used is Scoops or No Scoops...( V2 wheel with PC No Scoops feels Best... V2 wheel and PS4 Scoops 68/24 feel best) set the Fx, Fy, SOP etc for the feel you want then the in Car Masters can be set Per Car to Set the FFB Power that the User likes... I use a V2 wheel and use 100 in Car Masters every Car but the in Car Masters can Be Set according to individual/User taste per car... Ex: you may like 1 car in car masters at 100, another Car you like the Masters at 60 while the Next car you like Car Masters at 120!!! it doesn't Matter its all up to you... You can Even set the Car Master to Max 200 with No Clipping because the system has been Balanced through the Global settings to avoid Clipping even with 200 in car Masters... I doubt there is any car that will Need 200 masters though.

    IMO RAG and RAC are the Most important Factors to the Global System.

    RAG Sets the Total Power of the System... I set this to 100... EX: Look at it like this when you turn off a Fan the Blades Keep Spinning until the Residual power Dissipates...The FFB system is the Same way!!! with TF/RAC 75 I limit/Cut the Power of the FFB System at 75 but When under Load Bumps, Weight Transfer the power will Spike to 100% or above... RAG 100 will Cut any power spike that tries to Rise above the 100 set level.

    RAC sets the power Limit for Bumps, Curbs FFB Effects in general... i set RAC to75 to accommodate for power Spikes caused by Bumps, Weight transfer.... and again RAG 100 will Cut any power spike that tries to Rise above the set level... Therefore No Clipping!

    Tire Force... Tire Force is the Global Master Scale for the In Car Masters!!! So even if you have Car Masters set to 100 or above TF is Still Limiting the in Car Masters output when they Reach the Global system!!!!

    The FFB system is Not that complicated at all once you understand what does what.
    IMO when you Use Low in Car Masters you are Killing the Feel of the Car at the Source!!!! IMO this is why Many have a Hard time Getting Good Feel because you are Limiting the Car Feel at the Source...Ex Low in Car Masters that are going to be cut or limited again by TF in the Global settings.

    PCars has been IMO almost Irreparably Damaged by False Teachings and Bad Settings by a trusted few that did Not want to admit they were wrong and or Work together as 1 for the benefit of Pcars community as a whole... Mostly SMS Killed their Own Game by Not Giving out the Information that was Needed to properly Tweek the FFB system to Dispel all the False Teachings and info that has been given out.

    Edit: Below are some links that can Shed some more Light on the FFB system and why i base My Tweek on in car Master 100 and adjust on a per car basis if Needed...These links as well as more info are shared on the First page of My thread... I also have a PDF posted with My settings and how to use them posted as well.

    http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...thread.105466/
    Last edited by GrimeyDog; 22-01-2017 at 18:33.
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