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Thread: Two sides to every story

  1. #1
    Superkart Pilot danowat's Avatar
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    Two sides to every story

    It's probably a bit late, because most of the pitchforks have been laid down (on this forum at least, other places, not so much), but even so, the information in these posts is quite eye opening, especially if you haven't been involved in development.

    I know it's not strictly on topic, but a lot has been posted about the way the development on PCars has gone, and these posts do bring a whole other side of the story into play.

    Give these a read with an open mind, both posts are worth your time (IMO), you might learn something.

    The second one is more pertaintent to the development process, and why things happen the way they do, the first one is more personal, and reinforces that developers are real people too.

    http://woolfegame.com/blog/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comm...eres_a_lot_of/

  2. #2
    WMD Member Jussi Viljami Karjalainen's Avatar
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    Aye. Being able to see close up every update, every build, most everything that happened during the development of pCARS, I can't even really express how much more I appreciate all the game developers of the world, for theirs is truly a hard job, which goes massively under appreciated by the people they work for (the gamers) since in most cases they simply do not understand the realities involved. pCARS taught me so much that it really would have been worth twice what I paid for the experience (a senior and a team member pack in my case), yet what I actually got is my money back (and then some), a game that I love, friends that I cherish, and experiences that will shape the rest of my life.
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  3. #3
    Superkart Pilot ElectricBlues85's Avatar
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    It should be compulsory to read the links in the OP.

    I'm not one to rage about bugs or feature requests. I work in a technical field and I like to develop in my free time. Not game development but web apps (Ruby on Rails, etc). The complexity and the amount of testing involved to get even something basic working is astonishing. Changing functionality you've already written is even harder (in most cases) than writing it all from scratch. Game dev is no doubt much harder than what I do.

    Big props to the guys at SMS (and their peers across the industry). You've got one hell of a job on your hands!
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  4. #4
    Superkart Pilot
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    There are two sides. I develop hardware and software myself, so I know how hard it is.

    On the other hand, when a customer buys a product they don't buy into your lifestyle. You have to respect the fact that when they buy something, your problems making/developing it aren't something that they have to be concerned about (although they may choose to do so). Some people when they buy a product they want to hear about the development and details and they want to hear the blood sweat and tears. Others just want to buy something that works. They don't care whether the developers cat died halfway through, or a lightening strike took out all the servers so the product had to be started from scratch. Imagine if you went into a restaurant and got a crappy meal and you got the whole story of why it was like that. Most people wouldn't give a damn, they are just annoyed that the meal is crap and want better.

    So no, IMO it should not be compulsary for a consumer to know about the development process and how difficult it was. It should be up to the customer as to whether they want such details. And if they do, fine, and if they don't fine as well.
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  5. #5
    Superkart Pilot BCFCBristolRed's Avatar
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    Two very good reads there. Two sides? Absolutely.

    I agree with BigFred in some respects, yes as a consumer you should expect a "finished product". You'd be steaming if you bought a TV and they said, oh yeah, it has the capability of running at 1080p but we will need to patch that in at some point etc etc etc. On the other hand, game development is an incredibly difficult subject. I've read many articles in recent times which say, ps1 games had to be finished as they couldn't be patched etc but, games and game machines nowadays are so complex. Being a member of this forum and many other "next gen" game forums has taught me just how difficult it is to code a multi platform game and how much actual work goes into it.

    Thanks for these links!!
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  6. #6
    Superkart Pilot KK78's Avatar
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    I agree and appreciate the threads Danowat posted but also agree with Big Fred. It's a balance and more information like this would be great to help educate both sides on the situation. It feels often that game development is a closed book to consumers, probably due to publishers preferences to market the living poo out of a game rather than give a perspective on the effort, energy and challenges that occurs during development. Consumers too should lend some level of understanding though, too many are self entitled idiots who mistake a highly complex video game as been the same as a fridge/freezer.
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  7. #7
    SMS Umer Ahmad's Avatar
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    Also, this is not just games. This is pretty much par-for-course for ALL software I've written/produced/bought/supported in the past 15 years.

    Same story at work (Financial Trading & Risk systems). None of our customers will typically take version 1.0 except the guys that are desperate for the new features and can tolerate bugs. Most customers respond, "call me back when you have released the 2nd patch then I'll think about upgrading."

    Same for internally written software, 1.0 is usually small and something to "get used to" and we quickly (monthly) follow-up with patches. Especially when I'm working with new internal clients, I coach the developers to KISS because the risk is high the customer will not even fully understand what the software can do for them and how it affects (improves) their operations. I work at a pretty ancient bank in Chicago where there are some "dinosaurs" still employed.

    In general I think computing and software is new to humanity, we've been doing it less than 100 years. If you compare to medicine, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, textiles etc. then software is still in it's infancy. How many "frameworks", patterns and SDLCs have we seen come-and-go just in the past 20 years? Waterfall, Iterative, Agile...Fragile we're getting better at it though.
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  8. #8
    Superkart Pilot KK78's Avatar
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    That's the thing, I see software as a living thing and like other living things it is prone to mistakes, outbursts and weeing itself on occassions.
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  9. #9
    SMS Umer Ahmad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KK78 View Post
    That's the thing, I see software as a living thing and like other living things it is prone to mistakes, outbursts and weeing itself on occassions.
    Yeah, it's quite different from a "durable good" that does not really change after the purchase. Software can be improved over time. So the on-going support of the team is more of a factor than say if you buy a car and plan to change your own oil, brakes etc. (I do my car maintenance myself so I don't care about the "support" the dealer does or does not offer).

    You buy a clothes washer and thats it. Done. It's not going to "improve" later (you'll get some warranty however). So the product at purchase time has to pass more rigorous testing. I think software is different, the relationship between software producer/consumer is a bit tighter than say my relationship with Honda/Subaru (the two cars I own).
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  10. #10
    Superkart Pilot danowat's Avatar
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    Just offering an opposing viewpoint, and hopefully a discussion point, I have been vocal about the parts of PCars I don't like, I am not excusing bad service.

    A one of things touched on I thought was important, was the point about developers "stealing our money", I see this a lot, not only on this forum, but elsewhere, do people really believe that a development team spend years creating a product to hoodwink us and steal our money?.
    Last edited by danowat; 13-08-2015 at 14:33.

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