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Thread: Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1

  1. #6861
    GT4 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    But TF = % of tyre forces used in total ffb according to the in game definition?
    Its not all TF. There's suspension geometry that has an effect (which are ultimately initiated by tyre forces?!).
    So lower TF = reduced "tyre noise", if you will. Like bumps and kerbs are less, but alignment effects are still there. So, by that reasoning, would TF>100 give more "road feel", with MS to adjust the total ffb "volume"?
    As you see the Game Definitions are Very Vague and Miss Miss Leading....Ex: TF should have been Named Spindle Force since TF= Global Spindle Master Scale.... Ive Tested and Made Videos... if you like i could make another Video Showing In Car Masters 100 -VS- 200 The Graph will Not Change Nor will there be any Clipping the only thing that will Change is the saturation of FFB forces that you Feel in the wheel...Better Yet Test My settings for your self and see... But i will Make the Video if you want.

    Just because some one went to Colledfe doe's Not Mean they know More or are Smarter than you.....So just because some one bought into the Beta test dont Mean they Know how things work.... They are just like every one else just looking fir a Formula that works for them to their taste... 1.00/100 is the intuitive Default for the FFB system 1.00/100=100% there is Never a Need to set any setting Higher than 1.00/100 If the system is being used properly... Meaning all parts Balanced Using Low Master Forces you to use High RAG to compensate/Try to add back the FFB power that is inherent to Low in Car Masters.... Remember Pcars FFB is Supposed to be Directly derived from the Spindle Forces So why any 1 that understands how the system works would promote using Low in Car Masters is Beyond My Comprehension Liw Masters Kill the Very FFB you want to feel at the Source then your trying to Boost it back up with High RAG which is why you get the Floaty or Disconnected from the Road Feel.... Also in the absence of a Signal or In the Case of a Very Low Signal any 1 that Knows electronics Knows that Boosting the Signal from other than the Main source can and will introduce Static/Noise as Fillier Not to Mention that Electricity Naturally has Noise/Distortion in it....... Shall i continue to write more??? I can write a thesus if you like.
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  2. #6862
    GTE Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Just throwing out alternate ideas based on the G29 use.
    Increasing the in car MS up on a G29 has it clipping crazy. Fanatec is far stronger so it can handle it I guess?
    So ATM my TF is 75 MS ~30 (depending on car) rag 1.0. Using MS to adjust clipping. Should I be reducing Rag and increasing MS, then?
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  3. #6863
    GT4 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Just throwing out alternate ideas based on the G29 use.
    Increasing the in car MS up on a G29 has it clipping crazy. Fanatec is far stronger so it can handle it I guess?
    So ATM my TF is 75 MS ~30 (depending on car) rag 1.0. Using MS to adjust clipping. Should I be reducing Rag and increasing MS, then?
    Leave RAG and SG at 100/1.00...What is your RAC set to??? High RAC is what causes Clipping you will find that if you reduce RAC you can Avoid Clipping entirely while still maintaining Great FFB feel... Pcars has a bunch of redundant settings!!! RAC again sets the FFB saturation/volume within the relative system.
    RAG is a Limiter any force that tries to rise above it will be clipped/Cut...RAG 1.00/100 =100% power there is no need to use RAG at 130, 150 .180% power as long as the other parts of the system are used in balance regarding the other FFB system parts....look at the front page there is a Video RAG 200 -vs- RAG 100 there is no clipping with either because RAC is set accordingly...for your wheel set RAC at 75 then reduce until the wheel feels Good to you....RAC is what really sets the total volume of the FFB before it Goes to SG... SG need Not be reduced if RAC is set to a proper level for your wheel and FFB taste.

    When RAC is set to the correct level you should be able to use master 100 and adjust them per car as needed...1 car too strong reduce masters until feel is right, 1 car too light increase the masters until feel is right...read the front page there is a link that was posted by tenenbaum speaking to 1 of the game dev and this is exactly how he described to use the system... Here is a excerpt from the post and a link to the thread...read it for you self and see if the game devs said this is how to use the system where do people come up with all this other rules about the FFB system... in car master set saturation of FFB Forces TF set the strength/volume of the FFB forces, RAG sets max limit of the FFB forces that operate within the FFB system..EX nothing rises above its set level EX:1.00 any force that tries to rise above it will be cut...RAC is what you set to tweek the forces within the relative system...turn RAC up or Down so that the strongest FFB spikes Peak at the Top and bottom of FFB graph without Flatlining or cutting the Tips Off<--clipping...then pick a car you know well test drive on a Bumpy track you know well and + or - the in car masters until the car FFB strength feels how you like it.... Me my self i use 100 masters and same settings every car... The FFB is just the FFB it has Nothing to do with the way a car handles...FFB only purpose is to inform you how your car is handling the road, Ex: grip feel, road feel, slip feel, Weight transfer using Low masters kills the FFB at the source...follow the link read the post for yourself...All the right info to tweek its all right in there... check it out Read it then tell me I'm Wrong...


    Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening FFB Changer for Me!!!

    Link to original post below
    http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...thread.105466/

    Quote "
    a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
    b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200

    Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.

    Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.

    It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialing down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote

    Last edited by GrimeyDog; 21-03-2017 at 04:23.
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  4. #6864
    GTE Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Ahh I get it now.
    I think my RAC is too high (RAG-0.05 I think) and maybe not enough RAB (~0.05) for the rac to really work.
    Will have a play with it and post results when I've got it good.
    Cheers for that. Using the rac+rab seems to be the way to go for the G29. Always thought the low forces weren't enough on the G29; was considering playing with the scoops to boost it but not sure how they work (which way to adjust, the wording is tricky).
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
    You put your left pedal in, You take your left pedal out,
    You put your right pedal in, And you slide it all about...
    G29 settings.
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  5. #6865
    GT4 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Ahh I get it now.
    I think my RAC is too high (RAG-0.05 I think) and maybe not enough RAB (~0.05) for the rac to really work.
    Will have a play with it and post results when I've got it good.
    Cheers for that. Using the rac+rab seems to be the way to go for the G29. Always thought the low forces weren't enough on the G29; was considering playing with the scoops to boost it but not sure how they work (which way to adjust, the wording is tricky).
    Be careful with rab. It can make the wheel start to hang and grab if set to high on some wheels and isn't always easy to notice. Some of the time its more noticeable if you have to make a quick correction or the rear steps out. If the low forces are a little weak try lowering scoop reduction. If you play with sr and sk id recommend making small like .02-.03 changes and test drive. Its enough youll feel a change but not so much youll start chasing yourself. Then you can go back and fine tune it. Yes .01 will make a noticeable difference once you settle in on the rest of the settings.
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  6. #6866
    GT3 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
    Its not completely gone but the feeling is a lot closer to the other sims. Same settings minus scoops and jacks classic settings. So the only thing I can blame is the tv because it felt the same on pc and the ps4 until I went to vr. Yes the perspective helps but I don't think that was all of the issue. I'm really thinking refresh rate and/or input lag hurt this game more then others for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    Ixm 100% convinced that the Disconnected Feel comes from using Low in Car Masters.... Think about it... Pcars FFB is supposed to be taken from the Spindle forces... If thats True then what i have been saying all along can Not be Denied... TF= Global Spindle Master Scale... 100 masters + TF 75 = 75 total output..... The in Car Master Just set the Level of Saturation of the FFB forces and Blends them as 1 before it goes to TF.... Same For Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz, SOP etc these settings just set the level of Saturation for the particular FFB feel that the setting Brings out.
    Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
    That's not it. If that was the case nothing would have changed because I switched to vr. Its a lot better since switching and if i did back to back tests between tv and vr id say you changed something in the ffb which I know isn't the case.Even the rain is immensely better and I always thought the rain sucked. I actually spent an hour driving a lmp in a thunderstorm the one night because it was so much fun to drive in. I'm still really thinking it has something to do with refresh rates and input lag or a combination of that even though my sony has a game mode that is supposed to help with that. Remember a gaming monitor is 1-2ms and most tvs are 20-30ms or higher.I never thought that little difference would matter but I'm starting to think it does. Maybe that little bit of lag is what gives so many of us that disconnected feeling because I don't have it anymore. Pcars still feels different then other sims but that's been explained why it does and the way it feels now definitely isn't bad.
    IDK... I can still feel it. It's not like PCars feels any different to me. It's just less noticeable, because of the perspective. Kind of like how when you change the FFB, you sometimes feel like the car is handling differently, even though it's not. The change in FFB is just making you respond differently. I'm pretty sure there are people using gaming monitors reporting the floatiness. Also, why just PCars? Ever other game plays fine at 60Hz.

    It also has nothing to do with the settings. They can make the floatiness worse or better, but it's always there. I even feel it when I try your setting Grimey. I haven't tried anyone settings--even people that claim they don't feel any floatiness--where that feeling wasn't there.

    Besides...didn't they already admit that this was a model difference in the other thread, and that it's been resolved in PCars2? If that's the case, how can it be latency?
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  7. #6867
    GT4 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Ahh I get it now.
    I think my RAC is too high (RAG-0.05 I think) and maybe not enough RAB (~0.05) for the rac to really work.
    Will have a play with it and post results when I've got it good.
    Cheers for that. Using the rac+rab seems to be the way to go for the G29. Always thought the low forces weren't enough on the G29; was considering playing with the scoops to boost it but not sure how they work (which way to adjust, the wording is tricky).
    RAG should only be set Low or Off when using the Soft/High clip system to Regulate the FFB system power Limit... Other than that set RAG at 1.00/100 IMO at all times...When using Low RAG you are telling the system to Let No more than 0.05% power flow through the system and to Cut every force that rises above its set limit.

    RAB you have to fine tune to taste according to your wheel... This Does exactly hat the Name says... It Bleed off FFB power to create Changes in wheel weight and create FFB based on wgats going on.... Ex: in a corner under heavy weight tranfer you hit the curb RAB will Bleed off power to Create Bump Feel....(Start with 0.08 for tweeking purposes)

    RAC *this seems to be where Most get really Stuck/Confused* Relative Adjust Clamp it does exactly what the Name Says... It Clamps/Limits the power of the FFB forces at its set level... Ex: RAC 75 this means that Power to FFB forces will be stoped at 75% of total system power.... This is important because even though you stop Adding power at EX:75 the FFB Spikes will continue to Rise until the residual FFB power Dissapates.... Example remember the fan theory: when you shut off the power the fan Blades will continue to spin until the residual power Dissapates... The FFB system is the same way Even though No FFB power will be added after the EX: RAC 75 set limit FFB power spikes will continue to Rise until the Residual FFB power dissapates.... Therefore you Must Set RAC Lower than RAG to leave Room for Expansion of FFB forces to Avoid Clipping

    Start with In car Masters 100, TF 75, RAG 100, RAB 0.08 , RAC 75 test for Feel & Look for FFB Graph Flat Lining/Clipping...There should be No Clipping but i dont know How Much FFB a G29 can take... If any Clipping/FFB Graph Flatlining then Reduce TF & RAC to 65
    Note: with these settings High In Car Masters will Not Cause Clipping they are For Per Car FFB Feel adjustment Only... Higher Masters Give More Saturated FFB Forces/Low in Car Masters Less Saturation of FFB forces.
    Scoops you will have to adjust bu Feel to your taste and wheel used when i was using scoops i used 68/24 feels the same as No Scoops just Less Linear/ LessPowerful
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  8. #6868
    GT4 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiden View Post
    IDK... I can still feel it. It's not like PCars feels any different to me. It's just less noticeable, because of the perspective. Kind of like how when you change the FFB, you sometimes feel like the car is handling differently, even though it's not. The change in FFB is just making you respond differently. I'm pretty sure there are people using gaming monitors reporting the floatiness. Also, why just PCars? Ever other game plays fine at 60Hz.

    It also has nothing to do with the settings. They can make the floatiness worse or better, but it's always there. I even feel it when I try your setting Grimey. I haven't tried anyone settings--even people that claim they don't feel any floatiness--where that feeling wasn't there.

    Besides...didn't they already admit that this was a model difference in the other thread, and that it's been resolved in PCars2? If that's the case, how can it be latency?
    I can still feel it but its not nearly as bad after switching to vr. I'm back to having a tough time deciding which one I want to play. AC,R3E,PCARS ? So is it only the perspective? IDK If I remember correctly its because of pure rack forces? Why pcars I have no idea.lol
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  9. #6869
    GT4 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiden View Post
    IDK... I can still feel it. It's not like PCars feels any different to me. It's just less noticeable, because of the perspective. Kind of like how when you change the FFB, you sometimes feel like the car is handling differently, even though it's not. The change in FFB is just making you respond differently. I'm pretty sure there are people using gaming monitors reporting the floatiness. Also, why just PCars? Ever other game plays fine at 60Hz.

    It also has nothing to do with the settings. They can make the floatiness worse or better, but it's always there. I even feel it when I try your setting Grimey. I haven't tried anyone settings--even people that claim they don't feel any floatiness--where that feeling wasn't there.

    Besides...didn't they already admit that this was a model difference in the other thread, and that it's been resolved in PCars2? If that's the case, how can it be latency?
    Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
    I can still feel it but its not nearly as bad after switching to vr. I'm back to having a tough time deciding which one I want to play. AC,R3E,PCARS ? So is it only the perspective? IDK If I remember correctly its because of pure rack forces? Why pcars I have no idea.lol
    Do either of you wear Head phones??? This can make a Huge Diff... I Wear Head phones so i can Hear the Tire Scrub, The Buttkickers Rumble for Road Feel so so between what i see Hear and Feel through the Buttkickers an wheel i feel totally Connected.... Some tracks have more Physical Road feel through the wheel than others but in General i feel well planted... time of Day and Date play a part in Road Feel...I always race june 18th (24hr Lemans Race Date) i notice racing online that the same track can feel Very Different depending on time of day and date.... Track Temps even a Few degrees colder that what you are used to can make Huge Difference in Grip Feel.

    For Me all of the sims Seem pretty balanced and Even according to Grip Feel.

    also @ Haiden do you use DRI??? I use Dri Off v2 & v2.5 i dont like the FFB assisted help to tirn the wheel.... it doesn't feel Natural to Me....Maybe if i were Drifting i would use it but Not for Racing for Me it takes away the Wheel weight/Fight and reduces Grip Road feel.... I like to Push pull the wheel.
    Last edited by GrimeyDog; 21-03-2017 at 12:05.
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  10. #6870
    GT4 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    Do either of you wear Head phones??? This can make a Huge Diff... I Wear Head phones so i can Hear the Tire Scrub, The Buttkickers Rumble for Road Feel so so between what i see Hear and Feel through the Buttkickers an wheel i feel totally Connected.... Some tracks have more Physical Road feel through the wheel than others but in General i feel well planted... time of Day and Date play a part in Road Feel...I always race june 18th (24hr Lemans Race Date) i notice racing on line that the same track can feel Very Different depending on time of day and date.... Track Temps even a Few degrees colder that what you are used to can make Huge Difference in Grip Feel.

    For Me all of the sims Seem pretty balanced and Even according to Grip Feel.

    also @ Haiden do you use DRI??? I use Dri Off v2 & v2.5 i dont like the FFB assisted helo to tirn the wheel.... it doesn't feel Natural to Me....Maybe if i were Drifting i would use it but Not for Racing for Me it takes away the Wheel weight/Fight and reduces Grip Road feel.... I like to Push pull the wheel.
    I use headphones now with vr. I actually think pcars feels pretty good now. I started a career again at the karts and I'm having a blast!
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