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Thread: Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1

  1. #7531
    GT3 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    ^^^ Im Not going to Hold My Breath... things always change or get pushed Back.... Im really Enjoying R3E!!! Pcars 2 is going to have to be Really Good!!!

    I Hope the have Vr-Sli support in Pcars 2
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  2. #7532
    GT4 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    Think about this...whats the diff between a wheel that's 1000Hz, 8Nm and has 5000 points of movement and a wheel that's 1000Hz, 16Nm and has 5000 points of movement??? absolutely nothing except the total strength--->The FFB Ramp up will Not be smoother or more detailed because they are both bound by the same Refresh rates/Hz and resolution/points of movement ... stronger does Not equal Better or More dynamic FFB range what makes for greater range of FFB effects is the wheel resolution and Refresh rate--> HZ/Response Time---> these 2 wheels will have the exact same FFB fidelity just 1 will be more powerful than the other...the stronger wheel will just add more voltage at 1 time but the fact is they both process FFB signal at the same rate and both only have a 5000 point of movement range to work within.

    the way i see it is....

    Hz or FFB Refresh rate is key because it determines how much FFB signal your wheel can decipher and reproduce within a given time range--->therefor lower Hz means you may miss out on FFB feel because your wheel may miss some FFB input<--- this is the case with alot of mid tier wheels.

    Higher steering resolution is self explanatory<--- wheels with Lower steering resolution will also cause you to Not have accurate steering input and works hand in hand with the refresh rate...the higher the refresh rate the more accurate your steering resolution.

    one thing that people don't consider is wheel frequency response range<--- lower end wheel will not be able to pick up the same signal range as higher end wheels so that's why people complain that they are missing FFB range<--- Some complain because they just don't know what they are looking for

    all this being said 2 wheels equal and the same in every aspect except total power<-- like many DD wheels some are stronger than others but given all is the same except total Nm power rating they will both have the same FFB fidelity there will only be a diff in Max FFB power out put.
    This is how i see it in my head<--- could be wrong could be right...Not debating just expressing My POV of how i think it works.

    What you said is true to a point. Obviously a higher refresh rate is going to be better but that's not the only thing involved. Youre absolutely wrong about both having the same fidelity. If that was the case my pcracer would feel exactly the same as my t300. Youre overlooking the fact the stronger wheel has a larger range of forces no matter what. If you only have a 0-8nm range to work in you can only reproduce so many forces in that range regardless of what you set the power level too. If the wheel has a 0-20nm range its going to have a much larger area to work in so you will feel more because you aren't trying to push everything into a smaller area. If what you said was correct nobody would worry about how strong a wheel is which we know isn't the case.
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  3. #7533
    GT4 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    ^^^ Im Not going to Hold My Breath... things always change or get pushed Back.... Im really Enjoying R3E!!! Pcars 2 is going to have to be Really Good!!!

    I Hope the have Vr-Sli support in Pcars 2
    You have to try the new cars in ac. I only got to try the audi tt cars and the McLaren but they where awesome!!

    I really hope all the game manufacturers take advantage of that. Id buy another 1080 in a heartbeat.
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  4. #7534
    WMD Member RomKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    ^^^ Im Not going to Hold My Breath... things always change or get pushed Back.... Im really Enjoying R3E!!! Pcars 2 is going to have to be Really Good!!!

    I Hope the have Vr-Sli support in Pcars 2
    Much more than any other and then some. But don't trust me. Just you wait

    ps: is vr-sli even foreseeable for anything in the near future? Only thing that works with it is still that nvidia funpark "demo" AFAIK so I don't think it's just a developer thing. If it is, better start saving myself for another 1080!
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  5. #7535
    GT3 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Mopwr i been doing reserch because of all the DD wheel talk... Did you know that the T300 and PC Racer have the same Steering resolution??? Exactly the same... Only thing i couldnt find is the Hz/Refresh rate for both wheels... Im pretty sure but i could be wrong so dont quote Me that the PC racer will have a Higher Hz/Refresh rate than the T300.... This is why you get better FFB from it... also the Better cooling helps too...but the Higher Hz i think is where the Biggest benefit is coming from.

    Look up the PC racer vs T300 refresh rate see what you come up with.... I will be Valuable info as the DD dicussion continues.
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  6. #7536
    GT3 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
    What you said is true to a point. Obviously a higher refresh rate is going to be better but that's not the only thing involved. Youre absolutely wrong about both having the same fidelity. If that was the case my pcracer would feel exactly the same as my t300. Youre overlooking the fact the stronger wheel has a larger range of forces no matter what. If you only have a 0-8nm range to work in you can only reproduce so many forces in that range regardless of what you set the power level too. If the wheel has a 0-20nm range its going to have a much larger area to work in so you will feel more because you aren't trying to push everything into a smaller area. If what you said was correct nobody would worry about how strong a wheel is which we know isn't the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    Mopwr i been doing reserch because of all the DD wheel talk... Did you know that the T300 and PC Racer have the same Steering resolution??? Exactly the same... Only thing i couldnt find is the Hz/Refresh rate for both wheels... Im pretty sure but i could be wrong so dont quote Me that the PC racer will have a Higher Hz/Refresh rate than the T300.... This is why you get better FFB from it... also the Better cooling helps too...but the Higher Hz i think is where the Biggest benefit is coming from.

    Look up the PC racer vs T300 refresh rate see what you come up with.... I will be Valuable info as the DD dicussion continues.
    Refresh rate will allow the wheel to update the signal more often, basically, its how many times then wheel is asking the sim what it should be doing. The faster the rate, the more current the information the wheel is recieving and translating into force output. Obviously, the faster the more nuanced/dynamic the FFB will feel.

    But the amount of force, Nm generated, is what helps you feels those changes/nuances. The larger the force curve, the more range your wheel has to operate in, and the easier it is to feel/detect the changes in FFB. As far as FFB dynamic range goes, refresh rate and Nm of force are cooperative, both contribute to the FFB. Improving either will improve the overall feel of the FFB. Improve them both, and you get you'll see a big difference.
    Last edited by Haiden; 19-05-2017 at 15:14.
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  7. #7537
    GT3 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
    What you said is true to a point. Obviously a higher refresh rate is going to be better but that's not the only thing involved. Youre absolutely wrong about both having the same fidelity. If that was the case my pcracer would feel exactly the same as my t300. Youre overlooking the fact the stronger wheel has a larger range of forces no matter what. If you only have a 0-8nm range to work in you can only reproduce so many forces in that range regardless of what you set the power level too. If the wheel has a 0-20nm range its going to have a much larger area to work in so you will feel more because you aren't trying to push everything into a smaller area. If what you said was correct nobody would worry about how strong a wheel is which we know isn't the case.
    Ok so we All agree on Hz/Refresh rates Good...

    Ok so if what your sating about power is true the we Need wheels that are infinitly powerful....Yup thats Ridiculouse i know.... Excessive power eventually becomes a point of Diminishing returns because to turn the wheel uo you have to turn the Game FFB Down or Vise Versa.... So at what Nm is enough to get maximum FFB feel??? No one knows or even has a Clue---> if so there would be forums and Guidlines about it.... We cant even Race with the wheels we have at full power.... I think once you get over 6 to 8Nm the whole DD more power thing is just a figment of our Imagination---> Sort of lime chasing the Ocars FFB unicorn again... Also Remember along with the Refreash rate the wheels electronics have to be able to pick up todays broader range of FFB signals... Sort of like watching a HD movie on a old tube TV yes the pucture will play But it will only display the range of signal that it can pick up/Decipher.... Older wheels vs New current gen wheels operate on the same principal.

    @8Nm you may set GM FFB @100%
    @16 Nm you may set GM FFB @50%
    If both wheel have same refresh rate and steering resolution they will both have same FFB fidelity just 1 will have more total power.... The steps between 0 and 100% power for Both wheels will be exactly the same due to both having same refresh rate... only diff is the stronger will add 2x the power for every step in the FFB ramp up process.... The only way stronger would be Clearly better is if by default stronger Nm motors have Higher refresh rates.

    Its only Human though...Once we have power we alwats want more power.... Its just the way things go...LOL
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  8. #7538
    GT3 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    Ok so we All agree on Hz/Refresh rates Good...

    Ok so if what your sating about power is true the we Need wheels that are infinitly powerful....Yup thats Ridiculouse i know.... Excessive power eventually becomes a point of Diminishing returns because to turn the wheel uo you have to turn the Game FFB Down or Vise Versa.... So at what Nm is enough to get maximum FFB feel??? No one knows or even has a Clue---> if so there would be forums and Guidlines about it.... We cant even Race with the wheels we have at full power.... I think once you get over 6 to 8Nm the whole DD more power thing is just a figment of our Imagination---> Sort of lime chasing the Ocars FFB unicorn again... Also Remember along with the Refreash rate the wheels electronics have to be able to pick up todays broader range of FFB signals... Sort of like watching a HD movie on a old tube TV yes the pucture will play But it will only display the range of signal that it can pick up/Decipher.... Older wheels vs New current gen wheels operate on the same principal.

    @8Nm you may set GM FFB @100%
    @16 Nm you may set GM FFB @50%
    If both wheel have same refresh rate and steering resolution they will both have same FFB fidelity just 1 will have more total power.... The steps between 0 and 100% power for Both wheels will be exactly the same due to both having same refresh rate... only diff is the stronger will add 2x the power for every step in the FFB ramp up process.... The only way stronger would be Clearly better is if by default stronger Nm motors have Higher refresh rates.

    Its only Human though...Once we have power we alwats want more power.... Its just the way things go...LOL
    Not sure what refresh rate has to do with the number of steps in the force curve.
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  9. #7539
    GT3 Pilot GrimeyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiden View Post
    Not sure what refresh rate has to do with the number of steps in the force curve.
    While that may be a Good Question... For Me the Question that should be answered is why wouldnt the Refresh rate have something to do with the Force Curve.


    Point still Remains that at a certain point Excessive power has Diminishing Returns---> in order to run 1 High the other Must be turned Down.... We cant even use the 8Nm wheels at 100% with out turning down GM FFB or Similar setting to reduce the power so the wheel is comfortable to use....

    The other Key Question is what would be considered the Minimum Nm to get the Best FFB experience<--- Answer Unknown<---- its like chasing the Pcars FFB Unicorn again.
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  10. #7540
    GT4 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
    Ok so we All agree on Hz/Refresh rates Good...

    Ok so if what your sating about power is true the we Need wheels that are infinitly powerful....Yup thats Ridiculouse i know.... Excessive power eventually becomes a point of Diminishing returns because to turn the wheel uo you have to turn the Game FFB Down or Vise Versa.... So at what Nm is enough to get maximum FFB feel??? No one knows or even has a Clue---> if so there would be forums and Guidlines about it.... We cant even Race with the wheels we have at full power.... I think once you get over 6 to 8Nm the whole DD more power thing is just a figment of our Imagination---> Sort of lime chasing the Ocars FFB unicorn again... Also Remember along with the Refreash rate the wheels electronics have to be able to pick up todays broader range of FFB signals... Sort of like watching a HD movie on a old tube TV yes the pucture will play But it will only display the range of signal that it can pick up/Decipher.... Older wheels vs New current gen wheels operate on the same principal.

    @8Nm you may set GM FFB @100%
    @16 Nm you may set GM FFB @50%
    If both wheel have same refresh rate and steering resolution they will both have same FFB fidelity just 1 will have more total power.... The steps between 0 and 100% power for Both wheels will be exactly the same due to both having same refresh rate... only diff is the stronger will add 2x the power for every step in the FFB ramp up process.... The only way stronger would be Clearly better is if by default stronger Nm motors have Higher refresh rates.

    Its only Human though...Once we have power we alwats want more power.... Its just the way things go...LOL

    You are looking at the strength(nm) as purely overall strength. That's not the whole story its a bigger range of forces available regardless of where you set the overall power level. You don't really think bodnar offers a 20nm and 30nm motor for nothing do you? Same goes for the osw the most common is 20 and 30nm motors. With many going for the bigger motor now. I don't understand how you could possibly think the wheels in your example would feel exactly the same. The refresh rate has nothing to do with how many forces a wheel can reproduce only that it wont miss them which are two totally different things.
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