08/21/2016 -----> 10.0#v3 PDF TF/RAC 75
NEW ---> 03/14/2017 ----> Added PC Tweeker file and PDF Notes
03/11/2017: New Fanatec CSW v2.5 RAC/TF_75 FFB test No Retweeking...all working great with better Subtle FFB feel...PC only CSW v2.5 will Not work with PS4
I Now own Pcars for PC and console PS4 / Xbox 1.
I can Now 100% confirm the TF/RAC 75 Tweek will port to PC 1 to 1 with No extra tweeking Required... It can be fine tuned to taste/FFB Strength Level with a few clicks + or - to the in car masters.
03/11/2017: New Fanatec CSW v2.5
RAC/TF_75 FFB test
@ Sakitto GP No Retweeking...all working great with better Subtle FFB feel.
Sakitto Never Felt this good!!!
Pcars now seems to have much better progressive FFB feel with the v2.5
and new FW!!!No its not over the top strong like AC but its definitely there....i think that because the wheel moves more freely because of much less drag this allows the progressive FFB forces to really shine through... that last fast sweeper curve before the straight to the finish line the progressive FFB is just spot on!!! its a well balanced fight between weight transfer and tire slip!!! watch the FFB graph...i can Clearly feel all of it!!!...
i feel the tire slip with the regular v2 as well but it's not as vivid and clear... While the v2.0 gives great FFB feel with Pcars the weight transfer feels like more of a constant weight that turns of and on with notably less progressive feel than the v2.5
gives...Many will think or say that Gdog just taking smack and Nope it can't be that big a difference.... well its not when talking a bout stronger FFB forces but when your talking about more subtle FFB feel then the jump becomes more significant...I'm sure that as many more get the v2.5
wheel and report back that many will share my same thoughts the diff can be clearly felt.... The subtle FFB forces define and give clarity to the stronger FFB forces... just like with music bass is just Noise and Vibration until you add in the Highs and the Mids....I don't know how much of this is due to new wheel TEC or FW
but if they can port even 3/4ths of the progressive FFB feel and reduce wheel drag for the v2.0!!! I'm sure many v2.0 owners will be dancing with joy.
I made No changes to my TF/RAC 75 tweek... v2.0 to v2.5
was plug and play with better subtle FFB feel.
O2/20/17 Edit: Pcars FFB system break Down..the FFB System is Full of Redundant Settings
Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP
set the Level/Volume of the Different FFB Effects that you Feel--->In Car Masters Sets the Level/Volume that those Forces are Blended together as 1 Group of FFB Forces before--->TF = Global Spindle Master Scale it adjust other Final Output Level of the In Car Masters and Sends it to the Relative Adjust system.... Note this Means that No matter where you have in Car Masters set to it Really Has No Effect as far as Clipping is Concerned... Low Masters will Give Less Car Road Feel and High Masters will Give More Car/Road Feel.
sets the Total power of the FFB system..1.0/100= 100% FFB System Power.....RAG will allow FFB Forces to operate at any Value within its set Limit.... This Setting Need Not be Set Higher than 1.0/100
Bleeds off FFB power to Create Changes in wheel weight Creating FFB Effects Feel.
sets the Limit/Volume of FFB Effects.... RAG Must be set Lower than RAG!!! Its should be set Low enough to account for FFB Spikes that are Caused By Weight transfer, Curbs etc.... Remember the Fan theory Just because you turn off the power to a Fan the Fan Blades will Keep spinning until the Residual power Dissipates... The FFB system is the same way... Just because you Cut/Limit the FFB power at EX: 85 FFB Spikes can and will Keep Rising until the residual FFB power Dissipates... Therefore if your getting FFB Graph Line Flat spotting/Clipping Reduce the RAC until the Spike Stop at 95--->98% Of Box FFB Graph Box Volume... You must leave a little room to Compensate for Diff cars that may put out More FFB.
is only to set the final at the wheel FFB strength....IMO GM FFB 100% Rule is False!!! Fanatec wheels because they have on wheel FFB Level/Volume control is the only wheel that 100% GM FFB Can or Should be used... Fanatec wheels use the on Wheel FFB Level/Volume Control to set the on wheel FFB strength that feels best for you.
I'm Not Looking to Debate Opinions... No Need for that... There are only settings to test...Testing it for your self is the only way to prove what i say to be True
...I welcome all Comments based on Test results
This FFB tweeking Method can be used and.easily adjusted to any wheel.
Loss of Dynamic Range
is Caused Directly and Only By Low in Car Masters... You are Killing tbe Very FFB you want to Feel at the Source.
Again I welcome all Comments based on Test Results
IMO this whole Signal Compression/Loss of Dynamic Range thing is 100% False
... There is No Loss of Dynamic Range other than using Low in Car Masters.... That's like Listening to your Ipod at a Low Volume that you can Barely Hear... Every Note and word of the Song is still there you just have the Volume sooo Low you cant Hear and Discern properly whats actually playing... The FFB is the same way when using Low in Car Master
Also With Older wheels there is No Loss of Dynamic Range
...Look at it like this... just because some one is Color Blind and cant See or Discern the Diff between Red and Green Does Not mean that the Colors are Not there... they are still there they just cant be seen by a color blind person... Older wheels are the same the Full Dynamic Range is there but the wheel may Not have New enough Tec to pick up on such a broad range of FFB frequencies that are Now being programmed into Games
02/21/17 Update: I tested RAG 200 -vs- RAG 100
Every thing else are my normal settings , stock car suspension with in Car Masters 100
RAB .08 "
Testing TF/RAC 75 with RAG 200 -VS- RAG 100 in GT3 Mclaren and as always stock suspension tune.
RAG 200 or 100 Note the FFB Graph still No Clipping!
I chose this car because it drives very Tame/Smooth and doesn't have a lot of Bump/Road feel compared to the Gt3 Ruf...
Very interesting test...While RAG 200 will Give more FFB feel which shows in the stronger FFB graph...The problem is it feels good on the GT3 Mclaren but on the Gt3 Ruf its too Much the wheel becomes very jerky and stuttery.. High RAG can Not be Balanced for all cars without lowering in Car Masters Significantly which IMO is killing FFB at the source.
Solution is again as always...RAG 1.0 and adjust the in car masters until the car feels right to you.
The main point with Pcars FFB system is to avoid clipping
once you can set the globals to avoid clipping you can then tweek for best FFB Feel
I have shown that you can use in car masters 100 RAG 1.0, SG 1.0 and get very powerful balanced FFB with No clipping or loss of dynamic FFB range...The video shows you can use in car masters 100 and RAG 2.0 and still get No clipping
Pcars FFB is supposed to be based on Pure Steering Rack Forces that Create the FFB Effects and feel
So the Question is i don't understand why some continue to promote the use of low in car masters
why continue to kill the FFB at the source using low in Car Masters??? Even with in Car Masters 100, RAG 1.0, SG 1.0 there is no clipping to be seen in the FFB Graph and No loss of dynamic FFB range
Yes there are many ways to tweek the FFB system... I tried low in car masters and it just really kills too much feel with No Benefit.
10/26/16 Direct comparison Videos PC -vs-PS4 FFB Graphs...Videos are same track,Time of Day, Weather and FOV...All settings shown in video to confirm that PC and PS4 are using same Exact FFB settings and Both have great FFB and Road Feel No extra tweeking Needed... Compare the FFB Graphs, test it and see for your self.
PC, LMP1 Marek, Watkins Short
PS4, LMP1 Marek, watkins Short Video
08/25/16 posted 2 New PC PCars videos below
, Gt3 Ruff, Watkins short, TF/RAC 75 ported straight to PC no tweeking Needed...just plug it in and play.
I will be Posting more direct comparison Videos PC VS PS4 FFB Graphs...Videos will be same track,Time of Day, Weather and FOV.
Stay tuned!!! if there is a car,track or weather condition you would like me to test PC,PS4 post in the Thread, I could do XB1 also but the Xbox cant make videos like PC,PS4...or can it??? LOL I dunno i haven't been exploring new features on XBox lately... feel free to clue me in if I'm mistaken
Many of us have the same Equipment so if your a non Believer Then feel Free to try it for your self... You can always set the FFB strength either through the on wheel FFB settings for Fanatec wheels or + or - to the in car Masters Other wheels you will have to set the at the wheel FFB strength level through the GM FFB... I suggest starting with the wheel manufactures recommended FFB setting then + or - until it feels right to you... then test in a car you know well and + or - the in car masters as needed per car until you have the FFB strength you like...You can use my in car settings or you can set the Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP to best bring out FFB effects you like to feel.
08/25/16 My observation from Tweeking all 3 systems is as follows.
PC and PS4 are Very Close/Similar in FFB feel but the PC FFB has more Nuanced and Subtle Feel... They almost Feel the same but the Clarity of the PC FFB forces are just outta the Range of what PS4/XB1 can produce
XBox 1 MS New FFB system is Not in a good State... No Matter How you Tweek it... although you can get it to feel Good It just Doesn't Have the Fidelity and Subtle Feel of PC or PS4...Remember MS is using a New FFB protocol that was developed for XB1, I don't think that they have perfected it yet...When using this tweek with XB1 it is very important that you set the Game Master FFB according to the desired FFB Strength that you want at the wheel for best feel and performance.
With all this Tweeking and Such i feel like such a Geek
Its Been alotta Head Ache
But also alotta Fun
MY interpretation of RAC is correct for My specific settings with Car masters 100 For other users with low in Car Masters their input to the RA module is less so it works differently... For Me using RAC 75 or lower works well and i will stick with TF 75 or Lower with in Car Masters 100 because it leaves +99 or -99 Room for adjustment with in car Masters.
IMO With Settings 100/1.00 and Below the FFB Power and Feel is there... If the Power and Feel were Lacking with 100/1.00 and Below settings i would agree that Higher #'s would be Needed... But because the FFB Power and Feel is there IMO when you have to use some settings 101/1.01+ then something in the FFB Chain is Not being Balanced properly which causes you to overdrive 1 part of the System to compensate for the other parts being under used/out of balance... I use No Settings above 100/1.00
Quote from JS post page 318, post 3171--->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber describes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement
Tweek will work on PC, PS4, Xbox1 but you will have to set game master FFB according Wheel and system used!!!
PC,PS4 and Xbox 1 Note the GM FFB Must be set According to wheel used...the Exception to this rule applys only for Fanatec wheels on PC/PS4 set GM FFB to 100 and use the on wheel FFB to set your at the wheel FFB strength.
***PS4 GM FFB No longer adjust at the wheel FFB strength for Fanatec wheels the FFB Level is Now set by the Fanatec on wheel FFB setting***
***This Lower RAC setting works Well for All Wheels and also Lowers the chances of in game FFB Clipping***
***The in car masters can be adjusted per car to get desired FFB strength per car, I have set the in car masters to 200 and No Clipping!!! Adjust masters + or - per car as needed***
To me FFB is FFB once i found my Global settings i use the same in car FFB in every car and all cars feel Great and still have their own Handling identity that is unique to that car...The way i see it is the in car FFB is the ROAD... The Road doe's Not change because you change your car... What changes is the way every car will handle a Bumpy track, Sharp Curves or Rumble strips. I don't understand why some use different in car FFB for every car if the Global setting are set right...To me when you use different in Car FFB for every Car what you are doing is Creating Generic Road feel that takes away from the Natural Handling of that car... EX: GT3 Bentley and the GT3 Porsche Ride and handle very different... The Porsche is Rear Engine, the Bentley is Front Engine and they are different weight Bias... IMO The FFB is just FFB you set the effects that you want to feel and how strong you want certain effects to be... The rest Needs to be done with suspension tuning.
I Drive and Test All Cars with Stock Suspension settings.
I recommend that Cars Suspension and Aero be tuned only after you have the FFB settings set to your liking.
Post your Videos here so we can compare the Graphs and lets talk about FFB...
I'm using PS4, CSW v2 wheel, V3 Pedals and my own FFB Tweek.
Special thanks to Poirqc, tennenbaum, Skoader, Haiden, Morpwr and all who have posted valuable information to bring this thread to life as a Helpful tool for the Pcars community.... i will be editing and sorry if I'm forgetting any1
This Great post was made by Poirqc it is very helpful
***also link to Poirqc
base line FFB thread below***
We talked about having some common terms, well, here's my shot at it:
- Torque Delta: A change of torque happening over time. It's either the FFB signal moving up or down. When the line is above or below 0, but is staying mostly flat, this is static torque.
- FFB Deadzone:Part of the signal that is too low to make the wheel move. Usualy happend around TDC, but can be everywhere. It can also happend if the signal is too fast for the wheel to follow. You can see it in the telemtry but the wheel doesn't actually move.
- Linear signal:Part of the signal that gets output as is, 1:1. It's strong enough to move the wheel, but low enough so it's not compressed.
- Compressed signal:Part of the signal that gets compressed by RAC or Soft Clipping. The more you compress the signal, the smaller the torque delta will be.
- Saturated signal: This can happend anywhere in the telemetry. Could happend in low forces with too much Scoop Reduction. Could happend near max torque when TF is too high against RAC or Soft Clipping.
- Clipped signal:Well, easy enough, this signal goes above 1 so the wheel just output maximum torque.
You obviously don't want the first and last one. Well, it's not that easy. Having a small deadzone is not Too bad, you don't really miss much. It gives you space for other forces. Having just a tad of clipping isn't too bad also. If it only cuts top of spikes. Done deal. As for the slope of the signal, it's up to you, as long as don't miss out on the information you want to feel.
- The FFB can be linear, there's no compression going on. It give a light weight wheel, on most hardware, since their max torque output is not really strong. It could be stronger on a Direct Drive wheel.
- As you move TF(For simplicity sake) up you start to need to compress the end of the torque slope to prevent the signal from being clipped. At that point, the beginning of the slope is linear, and the end is compressed.
- At some point, the signal may not clip, but it gets saturated. From my point of view, a saturated signal is one where the torque deltas are too hard to discern.
- Finaly, if there's too much TF against RAC or Soft Clipping, the signal gets clipped too often.
If i go back to FFB dead zone, this is where smoothing(WPS or FxyzMz smoothing) can help. Even if you can read that it's the devil, it can actually help to modulate the signal when the wheel can't keep up(You can see but can't feel the torque delta) with the FFB signal. With that said, it's better to use the least amount possible.
All those part of the FFB signal are there, to various extent, based on the hardware you're using. It's a matter of understanding how the hardware can translate the FFB signal meaningfully.
This Short Article was shared by tennenbaum it's from another forum and will help to understand how the FFB system works... for me it was the key that unlocked the paradox!!!
Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening FFB Changer for Me!!!
Link to original post below
a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.
Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.
It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialing down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote
two more links shared by tennenbaum that shed more light about "Mz"
: when using this PDF
with a Fanatec Wheel I recommend using GM FFB 100 and starting with on wheel FFB 50% and + or - until the at the wheel FFB strength is right for you.
: When using any wheel other than a Fanatec wheel/Wheels that do not have on the wheel FFB Volume control at wheel FFB strength Must be adjusted with GM FFB!!! Start with GM FFB 75 and + or - until the at the wheel FFB strength is Right for you.
Note: Ignor the Game Master FFB 100 rule for all wheels!!!.You do Not lose Dynamic FFB Range if you use GM FFB at less than 100 this is a unproven Myth!!! GM FFB is after the Global System... It is the Last part of the FFB chain and Will Not cause in Game Clipping GM FFB however if set too high can and will Cause Cioping at the wheel that can will Not be seen in the FFB Graph but will be clearly felt in the wheel.
GM FFB should be used to adjust the Final at the wheel FFB strength only
Note: The PDF settings can be used on XBox1 The game master FFB Must Be set at 25% to start with then Test and raise accordingly to get the at the wheel FFB strength that Feels best according to wheel used..CSW v2/CSW v2.5 is use GM FFB between 25% and 30%...There is no way that GM FFB 100% can be used on XBox1!!! The Xbox1 New FFB Prorocol is just tooo strong!!! Its stronger than PC & PS4 combined!!!