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Thread: [PS4] Connection Issues Discussion Thread

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umer Ahmad View Post
    ^Sometimes when "everything" seems wrong online -- ALL other opponents cars warping -- it can mean YOU have the problem.
    Sometimes but not this time. I was talking to a number of people about the problems, all of whom were seeing the same thing. Quit possible that Sony changed something and the issues manifested themselves differently yesterday. But who knows? Sony won't give anything away. I can only hope they're being open with developers.
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  2. #102
    Superkart Pilot Ramiboo's Avatar
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    Ok, I'm in the camp that UDP will effect the online multiplayer experience and here my thinking to this. This may get a little technical, but I'll try to keep it laymen.

    The UDP option broadcasts UDP packets to all devices on the network regardless if they want them or not. Most people at home have 1 layer 2 network area and covers all wired and wireless devices that are connected. And when I say all devices, I mean from a home thermostat, to a printer, to a mobile phone, to a fridge, to a PS4, etc. Even when most of these devices are in standby mode the network adapter (wired or wifi) may still be connected to the network. Most wifi networks work on a round robin approach when it comes to sending and receiving network traffic in techie speak we basically call this half duplex. Just one client can speak to the AP at once, and can only transmit or receive at a time. Ah, I hear you say, my wifi is dual channel. Well that's great, that means you dual channel wifi device can send and receive at the same time!! However that does still leave the rest of you wifi devices waiting till that device has finished it's communication. In regards to the broadcast traffic being sent by the UDP stream, everytime a broadcast is sent none of the clients can transmit back to the access point so that's why you are having issues with your other wifi devices when pCars is running.

    Now, lets think about how this can affect the multiplayer experience. Say you're PS4 is connected to the Wifi network, or it's connected to a wire via a ethernet power plug (Also Half Duplex), or wired to via a wifi extender. Your PS4 is doing 2 things, it's sending unicast packets to the playstation network for multiplayer communication, and it's sending Broadcasts to your local network. It's very possible that the broadcast traffic is interrupting the unicast traffic and increasing your latency (or ping response time) meaning you will have increased lag in your game, and that lag will fluctuate all the time depending on other network activity. This might not be a huge problem if it was just you're positional data you were sending in to the multiplayer network. You are rebroadcasting other player data with your data. 1 player does not send his data to the other 15 players the lobby (31 for PC) you will pair with a handful of players so you data gets re-broadcasted to the whole lobby. If you pair with someone that has high latency, then other player will see you lagging, and some players will not, so it's not just your connection you have to worry about.

    I said this in the original thread when the UDP stream was being announced. Not in so many words, but I did warn that broadcast traffic is bad, and multicast is a much better option. In a multicast stream, only the devices wanting the stream will receive it, as they are the only ones that will subscribe to it, this will then cause less traffic on the local lan. It may still cause increased lag if you're PS4/PC is connected to the internet via wifi though.

    There are 2 thing to find out when you are in a multiplayer lobby with high LAG issues.

    1. Are any players using wifi to get to the internet from either their PS4, PC, or XBONE?
    2. do any of those players have the UDP streaming turned on?

    If the answer is yes to both, get them to turn it off and test. Or better still get yourselves onto a wired connection, the latency in Wifi networks fluctuates too much when there are multiple active devices on the network.
    Last edited by Ramiboo; 23-02-2016 at 10:49.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiboo View Post
    Ok, I'm in the camp that UDP will effect the online multiplayer experience and here my thinking to this. This may get a little technical, but I'll try to keep it laymen.

    The UDP option broadcasts UDP packets to all devices on the network regardless if they want them or not. Most people at home have 1 layer 2 network area and covers all wired and wireless devices that are connected. And when I say all devices, I mean from a home thermostat, to a printer, to a mobile phone, to a fridge, to a PS4, etc. Even when most of these devices are in standby mode the network adapter (wired or wifi) may still be connected to the network. Most wifi networks work on a round robin approach when it comes to sending and receiving network traffic in techie speak we basically call this half duplex. Just one client can speak to the AP at once, and can only transmit or receive at a time. Ah, I hear you say, my wifi is dual channel. Well that's great, that means you dual channel wifi device can send and receive at the same time!! However that does still leave the rest of you wifi devices waiting till that device has finished it's communication. In regards to the broadcast traffic being sent by the UDP stream, everytime a broadcast is sent none of the clients can transmit back to the access point so that's why you are having issues with your other wifi devices when pCars is running.

    Now, lets think about how this can affect the multiplayer experience. Say you're PS4 is connected to the Wifi network, or it's connected to a wire via a ethernet power plug (Also Half Duplex), or wired to via a wifi extender. Your PS4 is doing 2 things, it's sending unicast packets to the playstation network for multiplayer communication, and it's sending Broadcasts to your local network. It's very possible that the broadcast traffic is interrupting the unicast traffic and increasing your latency (or ping response time) meaning you will have increased lag in your game, and that lag will fluctuate all the time depending on other network activity. This might not be a huge problem if it was just you're positional data you were sending in to the multiplayer network. You are rebroadcasting other player data with your data. 1 player does not send his data to the other 15 players the lobby (31 for PC) you will pair with a handful of players so you data gets re-broadcasted to the whole lobby. If you pair with someone that has high latency, then other player will see you lagging, and some players will not, so it's not just your connection you have to worry about.

    I said this in the original thread when the UDP stream was being announced. Not in so many words, but I did warn that broadcast traffic is bad, and multicast is a much better option. In a multicast stream, only the devices wanting the stream will receive it, as they are the only ones that will subscribe to it, this will then cause less traffic on the local lan. It may still cause increased lag if you're PS4/PC is connected to the internet via wifi though.

    There are 2 thing to find out when you are in a multiplayer lobby with high LAG issues.

    1. Are any players using wifi to get to the internet from either their PS4, PC, or XBONE?
    2. do any of those players have the UDP streaming turned on?

    If the answer is yes to both, get them to turn it off and test. Or better still get yourselves onto a wired connection, the latency in Wifi networks fluctuates too much when there are multiple active devices on the network.
    I thnk the majority of players that are disconnecting are wired anyway, its not lag thats the problem with most players its getting chucked out of the game. (unless of course your post is for rymix, then soz.)

  4. #104
    Superkart Pilot Ramiboo's Avatar
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    there's quite a bit of chat in here about the UDP stream causing internet slow down in here and I wanted to explain how or why the UDP stream could affect it. That combined with the way multiplayer does re-broadcasting of player data, can cause multiplayer issues.

    Here are the P-2-P multiplayer issues I had last Sunday. Yes this is PC and not PS4 but we are all getting multiplayer issues. In the last example, it shows how I can see one player with crazy lag issues but other players see him fine.

    Lag Crash


    Monitoring a lagging car


    The lagging player in the second video is completely fine when running on a DS, but I was obviously receiving his positional data via a user that had really bad connectivity.
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  5. #105
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    In case anyone didn't know, there is PSN maintenance on the 2nd March from 5:30 - 7:30 GMT.

    https://status.playstation.com/en-GB/

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiboo View Post
    Ok, I'm in the camp that UDP will effect the online multiplayer experience and here my thinking to this. This may get a little technical, but I'll try to keep it laymen.

    The UDP option broadcasts UDP packets to all devices on the network regardless if they want them or not. Most people at home have 1 layer 2 network area and covers all wired and wireless devices that are connected. And when I say all devices, I mean from a home thermostat, to a printer, to a mobile phone, to a fridge, to a PS4, etc. Even when most of these devices are in standby mode the network adapter (wired or wifi) may still be connected to the network. Most wifi networks work on a round robin approach when it comes to sending and receiving network traffic in techie speak we basically call this half duplex. Just one client can speak to the AP at once, and can only transmit or receive at a time. Ah, I hear you say, my wifi is dual channel. Well that's great, that means you dual channel wifi device can send and receive at the same time!! However that does still leave the rest of you wifi devices waiting till that device has finished it's communication. In regards to the broadcast traffic being sent by the UDP stream, everytime a broadcast is sent none of the clients can transmit back to the access point so that's why you are having issues with your other wifi devices when pCars is running.

    Now, lets think about how this can affect the multiplayer experience. Say you're PS4 is connected to the Wifi network, or it's connected to a wire via a ethernet power plug (Also Half Duplex), or wired to via a wifi extender. Your PS4 is doing 2 things, it's sending unicast packets to the playstation network for multiplayer communication, and it's sending Broadcasts to your local network. It's very possible that the broadcast traffic is interrupting the unicast traffic and increasing your latency (or ping response time) meaning you will have increased lag in your game, and that lag will fluctuate all the time depending on other network activity. This might not be a huge problem if it was just you're positional data you were sending in to the multiplayer network. You are rebroadcasting other player data with your data. 1 player does not send his data to the other 15 players the lobby (31 for PC) you will pair with a handful of players so you data gets re-broadcasted to the whole lobby. If you pair with someone that has high latency, then other player will see you lagging, and some players will not, so it's not just your connection you have to worry about.

    I said this in the original thread when the UDP stream was being announced. Not in so many words, but I did warn that broadcast traffic is bad, and multicast is a much better option. In a multicast stream, only the devices wanting the stream will receive it, as they are the only ones that will subscribe to it, this will then cause less traffic on the local lan. It may still cause increased lag if you're PS4/PC is connected to the internet via wifi though.

    There are 2 thing to find out when you are in a multiplayer lobby with high LAG issues.

    1. Are any players using wifi to get to the internet from either their PS4, PC, or XBONE?
    2. do any of those players have the UDP streaming turned on?

    If the answer is yes to both, get them to turn it off and test. Or better still get yourselves onto a wired connection, the latency in Wifi networks fluctuates too much when there are multiple active devices on the network.
    I'm in the IT field with a background in networking as well [1]. Let me start out by saying, nothing you've said is wrong, so I'm not disputing your premise. Unfortunately, I've tested these assertions and not found any correlation. My PS4 is connected to a gigabit switched Ethernet network, and I still experienced the disconnects with and without UDP broadcast enabled.

    I've tested latency on my LAN, looking at both Ethernet latency and WiFi. UDP streaming does not adversely affect latency on either.

    The UDP stream bandwidth tops out at around 1 mbps. I determined this by running Wireshark captures on a WiFi interface, filtering by UDP port to capture only PCars broadcast traffic. At the middle and lower settings, the traffic is less than 1 mbps. I also verified that the transmit rates documented on the forum match what actually happens on the network.

    There is a group of users who experience issues with broadcast traffic over WiFi, but those issues are a sub-set of the larger disconnect issue. I'm running an optimal network scenario, and I still encountered the disconnects over the weekend.

    1: I've designed and implemented large networks for companies with hundreds of offices using mixed networks including carrier ethernet, MPLS, VPLS, and VPN.
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  7. #107
    Superkart Pilot Ramiboo's Avatar
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    Hey Bradley, thanks for the quote. I'm stuck at work at the moment, but I'm also keen to do some packet captures and stats on the UDP stream after reading this thread and I'll try to do some later.

    From the sounds of the forum chat around the net it does look like there was an issue on the PSN over the weekend. This I'm sure has caused a load of issues for pCars disconnects. I was just trying to highlight how local traffic conditions can affect the gaming.

    As I'm sure you'll agree, not all network equipment is made equal. Some routers have more broadcast control than others, and wifi as a whole has come on leaps and bounds over the last 2 - 3 years. There enough people posting around the forum saying enabling UDP has caused them issues and I just wanted to explain how that can be. Almost to enable them with some information. I was going to have a look at wifi features that have been implemented to protect networks against too much broadcast to see if those features are available in consumer equipment, is there anything in this space you know of?
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiboo View Post
    Hey Bradley, thanks for the quote. I'm stuck at work at the moment, but I'm also keen to do some packet captures and stats on the UDP stream after reading this thread and I'll try to do some later.

    From the sounds of the forum chat around the net it does look like there was an issue on the PSN over the weekend. This I'm sure has caused a load of issues for pCars disconnects. I was just trying to highlight how local traffic conditions can affect the gaming.

    As I'm sure you'll agree, not all network equipment is made equal. Some routers have more broadcast control than others, and wifi as a whole has come on leaps and bounds over the last 2 - 3 years. There enough people posting around the forum saying enabling UDP has caused them issues and I just wanted to explain how that can be. Almost to enable them with some information. I was going to have a look at wifi features that have been implemented to protect networks against too much broadcast to see if those features are available in consumer equipment, is there anything in this space you know of?
    Oooooh yeah, I agree with you in that many people are experiencing WiFi issues with UDP broadcast. Oddly enough, this is a requirement of one of the first parties (console makers). I have a couple of theories:

    High-frequency Transmit Interval on Shared Medium Networks
    While the bandwidth requirements aren't high, the packet transmit intervals may be causing issues for some WiFi devices. The faster UDP settings transmit at intervals below 50ms, which starts to get in to a range that can outrun latency on WiFi networks. Normally, we wouldn't expect this to be a problem, because UDP is fire and forget. There's no waiting for ACKs to screw up congestion algorithms. However, I think this may still have the ability to clog up WiFi networks. This kind of problem is common in I/O, where many small transactions can overrun an I/O system in cases where consistent throughput of similar volume wouldn't be a problem. Old shared-medium networks (Ethernet hub, 10BASE2, etc) used to have similar problems. You'd have 10 mbps of bandwidth, but a few kbps of traffic transmitted in small bits at high-frequency could cause congestion.

    Throttled WiFi Transmission Rates for Broadcast Traffic
    I am not terribly familiar with the various IEEE 802.11 specifications. Unfortunately, it appears that neither are many manufacturers of network equipment lol. It has been posited that not all equipment use the same implementation of transmission methods and rates for broadcast traffic on 802.11 networks. These are the questions that puzzle me:

    When transmitting broadcast traffic, what rate does the AP use? In a unicast context, the AP will transmit at a rate that is negotiated between the AP and the client. This rate is easily obtained by looking at network status information for the interface on the client, and is sometimes available in a list of clients on the AP. In a broadcast scenario, the AP must send traffic to all devices, so it faces the challenge of ensuring that even the slowest device on the network will be able to receive the packets. If a network has, for example, a media center device in a remote room that is connected at a lower transmission rate, that would (in theory) cause broadcast traffic to be transmitted at that low rate. Slow WiFi rates can dip in to kbps territory. If you have a fixed size payload (as ProjectCARS generally does [with low-frequency exceptions]), slower transmission rates occupy the shared medium for a greater duration. This can pretty easily cause contention issues.

    If the PS4 is on the WiFi network and transmits broadcast UDP, is that traffic visible to all clients upon transmit from the PS4, or does the AP have to re-transmit broadcast packets? If the AP has to re-transmit, this effectively doubles the bandwidth and packet rates for broadcast traffic. This could exacerbate issues related to the first question.

    As far as broadcast DoS protection in consumer equipment, I don't think we're running in to anything like that. I think it's more likely a deficiency in the equipment, rather than an over-ambitions security mechanism. Consumer equipment tends to be a lowest common denominator scenario, and there's lots of chipset sharing between vendors. With enough understanding of the specification, it should be possible to identify a root cause. Unfortunately, I don't have that detailed knowledge.

    Generally, I advise people to mitigate the issue by moving their PS4 to a wired connection and turning the UDP transmit rate down to a point that they can tolerate.

    Aaaaand with that I've gone completely off topic for the disconnect issue. I think there's some overlap, but based on the issues I experienced this weekend, there's definitely something independent of client network issues going on. My network was rock solid during the disconnects, and disabling UDP had no effect. I was disconnected even when I was the host.
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  9. #109
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    "Generally, I advise people to mitigate the issue by moving their PS4 to a wired connection"
    ^this !

    If connection strength/speed/stability matter then USE A WIRE !!!11one

    Drill holes if necessary.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slicker_VR View Post
    to be fair we had some similar issues tonight - including this doozy:-

    https://youtu.be/EwEJSqLytTk
    Yeah I've seen this happen. I've even seen a car racing backwards and one on its roof ....keeping up with the pack as if nothing's wrong.

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