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Thread: Torque Thrustmaster T500 versus T300

  1. #1
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    Torque Thrustmaster T500 versus T300

    On the TM home page the T500 ist specified with 150mNm at 3000 rpm with 65W, but for the T300 I could not find any torque Info.
    The T300 has an Hengdrive Motor labeled B4260M-S03.The power supply of the T300 can drive 2A /24V.
    http://en.hengdrive.com/Products/gam...heelmotor.html
    If I transfer the power supply current into the spec.sheet I get an torque of 50mNm, which generates with an gear ratio of 15:1 (measured) torque of 0,75Nm.
    The T500 has an Buehler Motor labeled 1130442xx (51x88mm).
    http://www.buehlermotor.de/DE/Produkte
    The power supply can drive 6,7A.
    The rated current for 65W on 24V is 2,7A .Transferring that current into the diagram gets about 150mNm, same as specified and with an gear ratio of 16:1 (measured) 2,5 Nm.
    So if am right, the T500 is more than 3 times stronger than the T300 ?

  2. #2
    WMD Member Jussi Viljami Karjalainen's Avatar
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    No, the difference isn't nearly that big. The T500 is slightly more powerful and has a bit more torque, but the T300 gets close, and is a lot smoother overall (cogging effect is lower etc.).
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  3. #3
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    I have no idea what the difference in maximum force is between the two, but I do know that if I ran my T300 at maximum force, my arms would fall off after about 20 minutes of driving, and I don't have tiny stick arms. I'm at the gym four times a week.

    Unless you're one of those people that prefers wheel force that can break your wrists, I wouldn't sweat the difference. I learned to drive in a 1973 Ford F150 pickup truck with manual steering, and that thing required less force than my T300 with the FFB turned up.
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  4. #4
    WMD Member Jussi Viljami Karjalainen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
    I have no idea what the difference in maximum force is between the two, but I do know that if I ran my T300 at maximum force, my arms would fall off after about 20 minutes of driving, and I don't have tiny stick arms. I'm at the gym four times a week.
    I on the other hand haven't been to the gym in years and overall am more technical than powerful, and when I race I normally do at least 1.5 hour races with the wheel set to max power (T500). Even the CSW V2 at full force isn't strong enough to really fight an average strength human (I say this as a below average strength one).

    That's not saying that wheels should always be set to provide the maximum amount of force in every turn, in fact I prefer setting them up per car type (road cars with proper power steering I set to quite light, racing cars that are meant to have heavy steering at high downforce loads I set up as heavy). IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm. The torque measured at the wheel of a Champcar could easily reach 15-20 Nm. That's why the direct drive servo wheels are so powerful.

    Also it's not just about whether or not the peak power is strong enough. The best situation is when you can set up your wheel such that the average forces you get while cornering are somewhere around 50-70% FFB signal level, so that you have 30-50% of headroom for the harder signals you run into when hitting bumps etc. without clipping. And some cars have very dynamic forces. Some of the open-wheelers produce VERY strong FFB signals at high aero loads, so with normal consumer wheels you have to select between having the wheel be very light at low speeds and getting to use the full power of the wheel at high speeds, or having it nice at low speeds and then clip the signal constantly at high speeds...
    Last edited by Jussi Viljami Karjalainen; 25-02-2016 at 13:26.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jussi Karjalainen View Post
    IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm.
    Do you have an link of that measurement or respectively say me what wrong in my calculation.
    Thrustmaster specifies the T500 at 150mNm and gear ratio is 16:1.

  6. #6
    WMD Member Jussi Viljami Karjalainen's Avatar
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    Sorry but no, I don't have it. It was done by someone rigging up a lever and weights to the wheel, seeing how much weight the wheel could hold steady at full power, so it was measuring stall torque, which can be totally different from the torque at 3000 rpm that Thrustmaster gives.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jussi Karjalainen View Post
    I on the other hand haven't been to the gym in years and overall am more technical than powerful, and when I race I normally do at least 1.5 hour races with the wheel set to max power (T500). Even the CSW V2 at full force isn't strong enough to really fight an average strength human (I say this as a below average strength one).

    That's not saying that wheels should always be set to provide the maximum amount of force in every turn, in fact I prefer setting them up per car type (road cars with proper power steering I set to quite light, racing cars that are meant to have heavy steering at high downforce loads I set up as heavy). IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm. The torque measured at the wheel of a Champcar could easily reach 15-20 Nm. That's why the direct drive servo wheels are so powerful.

    Also it's not just about whether or not the peak power is strong enough. The best situation is when you can set up your wheel such that the average forces you get while cornering are somewhere around 50-70% FFB signal level, so that you have 30-50% of headroom for the harder signals you run into when hitting bumps etc. without clipping. And some cars have very dynamic forces. Some of the open-wheelers produce VERY strong FFB signals at high aero loads, so with normal consumer wheels you have to select between having the wheel be very light at low speeds and getting to use the full power of the wheel at high speeds, or having it nice at low speeds and then clip the signal constantly at high speeds...
    When you say "wheel set to max power", that requires a little clarification. I run my FFB at 100, but I customize each car's FFB levels, so that doesn't necessarily mean maximum torque output. I still don't understand how anyone could operate one of these wheels at maximum torque output for extended periods of time. They're very strong.

    I would say the greatest benefit of a high-torque wheel is the dynamic range. I don't race open wheel much (if at all), which is probably why I'm able to overlook this so easily. Even with my relatively light settings, a Formula A car's steering feedback at full chat is really firm. There's also the matter of properly conveying peak feedback conditions like curb hits. If your FFB is tuned incorrectly, or if your wheel's dynamic range is too small, you won't feel important events that are occurring at the tires. So I can see where someone would want a higher torque wheel.

    I just think that people often focus a bit too much on the raw specification of something, just for the sake of being able to say that they have a greater specification. I'd caution the OP against that, but wouldn't go so far as to say he should choose one over the other. That will be dictated by preference. I haven't used a T500 personally, but when I researched wheels, I learned that the T300 had brushless motors, which resulted in smoother force delivery. That took priority (for me) over raw torque. Everyone has to make that evaluation on their own.
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  8. #8
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    In the case of the T500 it could be. The power supply can drive 6,7A. At that current torque is about 330mNm accordingly with the gear ratio about 5-6Nm.The T300 power supply however can only drive 2A current.

  9. #9
    Superkart Pilot Awong124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
    I have no idea what the difference in maximum force is between the two, but I do know that if I ran my T300 at maximum force, my arms would fall off after about 20 minutes of driving, and I don't have tiny stick arms. I'm at the gym four times a week.

    Unless you're one of those people that prefers wheel force that can break your wrists, I wouldn't sweat the difference. I learned to drive in a 1973 Ford F150 pickup truck with manual steering, and that thing required less force than my T300 with the FFB turned up.
    Yeah, I don't think the average person would be running a T300 at full force. That would be insane. The T300 at full force is fully capable of causing injury, I'm not kidding. I probably run the T300 at about half of the maximum torque it is capable of putting out. I used the T300 on The Crew, and if I go off road I have to turn the FFB down to 25%, because wheel jerking around is so violent.

  10. #10
    WMD Member Pamellaaa's Avatar
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    I am leaning towards Jussi's side on this one, I have a T500 and run FFB and Tyre Force as high as I can go without clipping (100 and 95 respectively I think) and regularly do 90+ minute races without issue. After a particularly strenuous race I might have a slight ache in my forearms but thats it really, I would have thought any injuries would be limited to a damaged thumb if you were really unlucky or did something stupid.
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