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Thread: Project Cars - Assetto Corsa comparison.

  1. #141
    GT3 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    I sincerely hope it's still possible to get only forces from the steering column/front wheels? I don't want artificial SOP or other things. Specifically I don't want the wheel to tell me things a real car steering wheel doesn't. It's exactly what I love about PCars FFB and find distracting in some other sims. The steering wheel FFB should not be used as an aid(as in help you in a way it shouldn't) IMHO.
    Hoping for the same. SoP and other signals confuse my brain. Tried some SoP settings and once forgot to switch it off (one of the LMP 2 cars have it by default) and the wheel felt heavy and weird.
    Plus the lowly G29 just gets overwhelmed.
    Back to the "connected" feel, is it possibly a result of laser scan and car setup?
    I can most definitely (and I think it's amazing how it's even possible) feel damping changes in pcars. Soften it up and feels "comfortable" and settled (using Jussi's calculator of course) or stiffen it up and cars feel more "energetic". Is it similar in AC? Could it be (Haiden or Mascot mentioned it earlier) a car setup thing and not entirely ffb?
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  2. #142
    WMD Member Tiago Fortuna's Avatar
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    Some tracks are smoother than others so I don't want the same feel on all the tracks. Same way like some kerbs are flat others are like seesaw (which is amazing how many fail to see this kind of stuff).

    Same way I don't expect all the cars have the same feedback. And this is an issue that is (it looks like to me) way overlooked. Almost looks like everyone want's the cars to behave and feel like they're GT3 and this simply is not true. I've even seen some saying road acrs behave weird and floaty... yeah, they are compared to racing machines

    But I do agree that we need a "connection" feel to the road, i'm just saying not all cars feel THAT connected and we can't/should not expect such thing. Just to make a point, aren't DTM cars that have a light for when the wheels are locking because drivers can't feel that ?
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  3. #143
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by could_do_better View Post
    And we wonder why FFB is so controversial. Who would be a developer trying to please all of the people! (not a dig at either opinion just an observation from 2 posts on the same page)
    I know, that's why I said it. PCars FFB is not perfect, but some feedback that people feel that's missing shouldn't be there. IIRC when AC was in early access when asked they specifically said there was no kerb feel because you wouldn't feel a wheels up and down movement from the steering rack. They added it in to please the community(that's why it's on a separate slider I think). That's not the whole story of course, because a kerb can also try to pull the wheel in one direction(which you would feel), but in general I think people overstate what they think a wheel transmits to the driver because they get the feeling from elsewhere in their real car. And that's feedback I don't want from my wheel. That should be reserved for buttkickers, motionplatforms and such.
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  4. #144
    Super Moderator Remco Van Dijk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    I sincerely hope it's still possible to get only forces from the steering column/front wheels? I don't want artificial SOP or other things. Specifically I don't want the wheel to tell me things a real car steering wheel doesn't. It's exactly what I love about PCars FFB and find distracting in some other sims. The steering wheel FFB should not be used as an aid(as in help you in a way it shouldn't) IMHO.
    Don't worry Accessibility is much better in pC2, but everything you could do in pC1 you can still do in pC2 (plus much more). As Ian stated, there are a couple of presets, which you can change to your liking with only a few mouse clicks to cover a wide range of 'feels', but if you want to go mad you can still tweak every little thing of the FFB.
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  5. #145
    GT4 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mascot View Post
    That intangible 'feel' I guess, for want of a better word. One of being planted, of rolling rubber on tarmac, of knowing what the tyres are doing, of sensing grip levels and knowing when you are on the edge and about to exceed it. pCARS feels 'right' but AC feels 'more right' somehow. And that's using totally default settings in AC - I haven't adjusted a single variable, not one.

    Maybe pCARS was a victim of its own complexity, but no matter how much fettling I've done over the past 20-odd months I could never get it 'feeling' quite right. It's tied directly to FFB but goes way beyond that. The cars talk to me in pCARS, but they mumble. In Assetto Corsa I can have intelligent, articulate conversations with them.

    Hope that makes sense. It's a fairly abstract and highly subjective sensation, and quite difficult to describe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Remco Van Dijk View Post
    I think I understand, though I do think that 'driving model' is the wrong word as it suggests something in the simulation part, in the code. What you're describing sounds mostly like a combination of FFB, visual and audio clues to me? You say that it goes beyond FFB, but I don't see (yet) how anything else than haptic, visual and audio clues can convey what's going on in the code.

    I do recognize your description, though, except that I never liked AC's FFB. In pCARS I have had different levels of connectedness with the cars, and for me it was almost all in the FFB. I also see that certain visual clues help a lot, and now with pC2's improvements I also, um, see that audio plays a very important role
    Quote Originally Posted by Mascot View Post
    It is a highly subjective topic. I'd love to try other people's wheels and setups because some swear they get more feedback from pCARS than they do in AC, but we all might be talking about different things.

    Your comment about audio is interesting. I guess you're hinting at the full spatial directionally-accurate surround sound in pCARS 2, with (for example) individual tyre squeal coming from all four corners of the car? This has been mentioned by Ian (or maybe The_American) in the GTP Q&A. Very exciting stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sum Dixon-Ear View Post
    I agree with Mascot, the FFB (feeling of weight transfer/tyres/different surfaces etc) in AC is sublime... far better than I can try to 'dial' into pCARS, and that's without needing to tweak the, grantedly simplistic in comparison, settings at all.

    Would you care to share your pCARS FFB settings with me as I would love to try them out for myself!
    This is the disconnected feel I've been talking about. For me, sound isn't a part of it. Because when I doing comparisons a while back and tuning FFB in PCars, I actually drove laps without the sound for that very reason. You can get a much better feel for the FFB without sound, and your brain will focus more on the feel with less stimuli coming from other places. And like Mascot, I've tried everyone's settings that claimed, they had the connected/planted feel, but they all came up short in that area. So I think it's a little a mixing of terms. But I do find it interesting that people that have tried both titles, seem to be unable to feel the difference. Whether you call it connected, planted, rolling rubber or whatever, there's a distinct difference in the FFB feeling between PCars and AC.
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  6. #146
    Moderator Mahjik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiden View Post
    Whether you call it connected, planted, rolling rubber or whatever, there's a distinct difference in the FFB feeling between PCars and AC.
    I don't think anyone ever disputed that. There was a decision made during the pCARS1 development to only allow steering rack forces. Later, some SoP was added in but that was basically it. The majority at the time wanted raw steering forces with no canned forces added in (i.e. RealFeel). AC originally had a similar implementation, but as mentioned above, they ended up adding in some non-steering rack forces. This is what you are missing in the pCARS1 FFB.
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  7. #147
    GT4 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by konnos View Post
    Also don't forget that a lot of people have been having a lot of issues with online. FFB loss at race start, stuck in pit, losing rank after qualifying was over, stronger ffb at race start, per-car settings getting lost on that session, replays getting borked if someone dced, wonky sounds and car control at replays and when viewing other people drive, losing position upon race finish, wrong tyres upon exiting pits. There are so many of these things, that even if one or two of these issues happened to to 1-2 players in a league race everytime, soon people will get fed up and move on to the next sim that is reliable and supports after-race statistics very easily, with little work for the organiser. This is the reason most leagues stopped racing at PCARS, the physics were not quite the reason.

    And by the way I agree with you on the floaty feeling. It has been there since the beginning, this vague feeling of sensing that your tyres are not quite connected to the road, by now I am almost certain it is either "baked-in" from development, or is just a trait of the PCARS tyre model. In my opinion, this is the ONLY thing that other sims are managing to do consistently, give you the feeling of connected driving at all times. PCARS is lacking there, but I can't put my finger on it, I don't have the knowledge to do so. What PCARS does very nicely in that department is give you hints on tyre grip at the edge and that "grip lost and grip regained" feeling. Also in AC, brakes can be a pain, if you don't have a good pair of brake pedals with some sort of warning or a load cell. It's a guessing game and not by feel. I m not saying it's better or worse, but even with the lowest delta in AC lock-ups are a danger, a little exaggerated if you ask me.
    As I've said before, the physics in PCars is fine. What ruins it for me are... one, all the things bugginess you mentioned above that just make the MP experience terribly frustrating. Spending time qualifying, just to get stuck in the pits at race time, or find your FFB got corrupted when the race loaded and know feels like you've got a cup of sand in the motor at every corner. It's just too much of a hassle. But the floaty feel is what makes even single player less attractive than other titles, to me. I love the features--weather, time, etc--but not feeling connected to the road is more important to me. Then there's also issues like, being restricted to one setup per track. It's just too hard for me to enjoy PCars, in comparison to other titles. There's too much work and tolerance required, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remco Van Dijk View Post
    Road feeling in other sims is a 'canned' force or something hugely amplified. In pCARS, because of how the FFB model works, picking up forces through the steering rack, many things will not be felt especially when tracks are in essence smooth with only large-scale undulations. Even in case of a rough surface, it may not be communicated through the steering rack and therefore not be felt in pC1's system.
    We're not talking about road feel, at least I'm not. I'm talking about feeling like my tires are connected to the tarmac. Even on smooth tracks, there's a feeling of being planted in other titles that is missing from PCars. I don't know whether it's canned or not, but it's something that a lot of people want to feel. I've always though that this pure approach with no canned effects was probably part of PCars' issue with FFB feel. I get the desire to eliminate canned effects. But given the limitations involved with simulating a real complex steering rack with belt or gear driven hardware, IMO, a mixed approach would be much better, sprinkling in a few canned effects to cover the gaps. Just make it an options, so the purist can have their pure feel, but people that want to feel like they're on the ground can have that too. Again, most other sims allow you to control the mix of canned effects. To me, that makes sense, given the varying personal preferences of sim racers.
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  8. #148
    GT4 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
    I don't think anyone ever disputed that. There was a decision made during the pCARS1 development to only allow steering rack forces. Later, some SoP was added in but that was basically it. The majority at the time wanted raw steering forces with no canned forces added in (i.e. RealFeel). AC originally had a similar implementation, but as mentioned above, they ended up adding in some non-steering rack forces. This is what you are missing in the pCARS1 FFB.
    IMHO, that was a very good decision. Curious as to what prompted the change. I hope PCars2 reconsiders the pure/raw approach, or at least provides another option.
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  9. #149
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    Again, the feeling I described is not FFB related. It feels like it is a part of the tyre performance, I can get road noise just fine with the right settings on more bumpy tracks, that is not my problem at all. I have done some tests with no FFB forces just to ease my mind, the slidey behaviour is there for my senses. I still love it and is my go-to choice for hotlaps or races, but I know that the feeling is there and it's not there in AC or AMS and whatnot. I m not blaming anyone here, but it is what it is, eagerly waiting for PCARS2 on that department.
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  10. #150
    GT5 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by konnos View Post
    Again, the feeling I described is not FFB related. It feels like it is a part of the tyre performance, I can get road noise just fine with the right settings on more bumpy tracks, that is not my problem at all. I have done some tests with no FFB forces just to ease my mind, the slidey behaviour is there for my senses. I still love it and is my go-to choice for hotlaps or races, but I know that the feeling is there and it's not there in AC or AMS and whatnot. I m not blaming anyone here, but it is what it is, eagerly waiting for PCARS2 on that department.
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