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Thread: Toe-in or Toe-out?

  1. #1
    Kart Driver hardlock's Avatar
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    Toe-in or Toe-out?

    I don't get why most cars all default to some rear-wheel positive and front wheel with zero or minimal negative value. Maybe I have the concept wrong but always thought that you'd want more negative front (front of wheels angled in for straight-line stability) and the rears at zero or if any, very small amounts of negative also to account for the drag on the tire or something.

    Do I have the positive/negative toe-IN backward maybe?

  2. #2
    Handling QA Lead Jussi Karjalainen's Avatar
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    Positive toe-in means the tyres point inwards, you want this at the rear to give the car stability when applying power during cornering. Having them point out is a great way to make sure the rear wants to get out from underneath you.

    Negative toe-in means tyres point outwards, you want this at the front to make the car more eager to turn into corners.

    Minimal drag would be gotten with 0 toe-in, yes.
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  3. #3
    Superkart Pilot Trippul G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jussi Karjalainen View Post
    Positive toe-in means the tyres point inwards, you want this at the rear to give the car stability when applying power during cornering. Having them point out is a great way to make sure the rear wants to get out from underneath you.

    Negative toe-in means tyres point outwards, you want this at the front to make the car more eager to turn into corners.

    Minimal drag would be gotten with 0 toe-in, yes.
    Is "toe-in" what it's referred to in game though? I don't have the game in front of me, but I thought it was simply listed as "toe". In which case, I've always thought of "negative toe" to mean the top view of the tires looks like / \, whereas "positive toe" looks like \ /. Or do I have it completely bass ackwards?

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    Superkart Pilot VelvetTorpedo's Avatar
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    Trippul, thats my understanding also. I could be wrong (probably am) but I always treat negative as toe-in and positive as toe-out. I try to zero the rear and if its unstable on the straights or corner exit I toe-in a degree or two. To me the outside loaded rear wheel gets some guidance as to how to behave. Toe-out (+) helps the rear rotate, Toe-in (-) keeps the rear in check more. Fronts I usually run toe-out for steering response.
    Last edited by VelvetTorpedo; 06-10-2017 at 19:37.
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  5. #5
    Superkart Pilot Trippul G's Avatar
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    Interesting. I just checked, and in-game, it is indeed referred to as "Toe-In Angle". PCARS1 has it listed the same way.

    Where my confusion seems to stem from is the fact that Forza gives you a slider labeled simply as "Toe", one for front and one for rear. "IN" is displayed as negative values, and "OUT" is displayed as positive.

    This is really going to mess with my head now, knowing that the two games are completely opposite in that regard.

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  6. #6
    Kart Driver hardlock's Avatar
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    Here's a pretty standard stock value for a car I haven't messed with in Pcars1.

    "toe-in angle"
    Front = -0.1
    Rear = 0.2

    First thing I do is usually set rear to 0 then add whatever the value was on the rear to the front giving:

    Front = -0.3
    Rear = 0.0

    My logic was that this would help straight line stability which I had problems with early on with some cars at high speed (still do with the Sauber C9)

    If I've been totally backward with these values, then that might explain my over-control/spin-out troubles mentioned in other posts? (or I'm just a bad driver.....)

    Got to do some serious testing now!

  7. #7
    WMD Member Puffpirat's Avatar
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    Negative values are toe out, you want this at the front. Positive values are toe in, you want this at the rear. This makes sense with the label being "toe in" since positive values are in, negative values are negative toe in, hence toe out

    It's the same in iRacing btw.
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  8. #8
    Superkart Pilot Trippul G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardlock View Post
    Here's a pretty standard stock value for a car I haven't messed with in Pcars1.

    "toe-in angle"
    Front = -0.1
    Rear = 0.2

    First thing I do is usually set rear to 0 then add whatever the value was on the rear to the front giving:

    Front = -0.3
    Rear = 0.0

    My logic was that this would help straight line stability which I had problems with early on with some cars at high speed (still do with the Sauber C9)

    If I've been totally backward with these values, then that might explain my over-control/spin-out troubles mentioned in other posts? (or I'm just a bad driver.....)

    Got to do some serious testing now!
    So in your example, doing what you said you'd typically do, you'd get a car with quicker turn-in, and less stability in the rear end. That would definitely go a long ways toward explaining tendencies to spin out and snap oversteer.

  9. #9
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardlock View Post
    Here's a pretty standard stock value for a car I haven't messed with in Pcars1.

    "toe-in angle"
    Front = -0.1
    Rear = 0.2

    First thing I do is usually set rear to 0 then add whatever the value was on the rear to the front giving:

    Front = -0.3
    Rear = 0.0

    My logic was that this would help straight line stability which I had problems with early on with some cars at high speed (still do with the Sauber C9)

    If I've been totally backward with these values, then that might explain my over-control/spin-out troubles mentioned in other posts? (or I'm just a bad driver.....)

    Got to do some serious testing now!
    This would indeed explain huge oversteer problems.

    Toe in at the rear is extremely effective in toning down power-on over steer. I recommend 0.4 to 0.6 for any car that has issues with this. Tire wear will increase as will drag but not enough to be a problem in most short races.
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