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Thread: T300RS FFB - should it be like this?

  1. #1
    Superkart Pilot
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    T300RS FFB - should it be like this?

    Hi, I have read many of the various posts and discussions on FFB but I could not find anything that was helpful. So I will ask and maybe someone can help me understand.

    I'm using T300RS, PS4 (non pro), updated to the new Patch 2 (also T3PA pro, TH8A if that matters).

    No matter what FFB settings I use, I still am getting a lot of 'left/right' force in the wheel that just seems abnormally strong to me. Mainly on the straights is where it is most noticeable. I understand there should be feedback for road conditions etc. And I understand that there can be forces coming through the wheel to translate that (good!) I'm assuming it's some sort of feedback due to the tire forces (like slip, road surface dips, etc, not bumps/curbs) But, it happens at quite strange times (really noticable on straights), and with force that seems much stronger that it should be? It's quite distracting and annoying. It seems completely unpredictable. I'm just trying to understand if it is normal for all users, or just something unique to me.

    My settings are generally:
    Informative
    Gain about 50
    Volumes between 40-50
    Tone about 15 (I've tried a lot of the range, finding that the higher the Tone, the more the left/right forces on the wheel. By putting it lower, this seems to reduce it, but it's still seeming strange and more than I would expect. Also, by having it so low, I think I'm losing the feedback of tire-slip when cornering, etc) TBH, I would like to have the feedback more on the tire forces/slip (rather than bumps), but the force just seems over-the-top. It's like hitting a curb and the wheel turning 30-45 degrees in your hands before you even know it (but there's no curb). And if it was some sort of front 'slip' I'd expect the force to soften, not get dramatically stronger?
    FX somewhere between 30-50.

    I don't know. I've tried a lot of the different suggestions of the settings in other posts, but none of it seems right. No matter what, the strength of the left/right forces are quite strong, and I can't seem to find something close to enjoyable.

    I'm having a really tough time to dial things in so that I can somehow feel the front wheel grip. In my mind (maybe wrong), when loosing front wheel grip there should be some lightening of the force, and some mild vibration. I'm really struggling to understand if PC2 does something like that (so far I can't really tell)

    I realize it might not be possible to compare games. I'm not trying to duplicate what is in AC ffb, but on AC i don't have anything even close to this sort of strong left/right movement in the wheel when driving. And the front wheel grip/slip seems to come through the ffb much more clearly.

    I know its subjective. But does anyone else have the same perception or observation?

    Thanks for any comments or ideas.

  2. #2
    Superkart Pilot
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    I have a T500 and I bounce between Raw and Informative. Raw seems to give better front end feel, but informative is better in the turns providing lateral grip feedback. I don't know if the T300 has enough power for Raw though.

    Overall, I don't think PCars2 FFB is bad....it's just different. It's not like AC or AMS....it just kinda has it's own feel. Good in some areas, different in others. The more you play, the more accustomed you will probably get.

  3. #3
    Superkart Pilot
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    Are you sure you have calibrated the wheel correctly as it sounds like your DOR is set too low and is amplifying the ffb?
    PS4 PRO, PS4 VR headset, 60inch Samsung 4K UHD TV, GT Omega pro cockpit, Fanatec CSL PS4 with BMW rim, Formula carbon rim, CSL loadcell pedals, Thrustmaster TH8A shifter, Turtle Beach Stealth700 Bluetooth h/set.
    The following user likes this Post: Atak Kat


  4. #4
    Superkart Pilot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madwak55 View Post
    Are you sure you have calibrated the wheel correctly as it sounds like your DOR is set too low and is amplifying the ffb?
    Well.... actually....
    I do calibrate it the game so that the wheel is less than 90 degrees when it asks to do that. I like lower DOR because otherwise I find that I'm going off at every corner because I'm not turning the wheel far enough. So when calibrating I think the number usually is about 1100. I have no idea what those numbers mean because they make zero sense to me in that calibration screen, but basically I turn the wheel a bit less than 90 degrees then click ok. For racing and turning performance it's much better for me.

    But I'm going to test that tonight..... Maybe it's the source of the issue as you comment....

    To be continued.....

  5. #5
    Superkart Pilot
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    You really need to calibrate it correctly. If you need faster steering, try adjusting the steering ratio in the garage.
    The following 6 users likes this Post: bradleyland, Dereenigne, Don-09141955, JohnSchoonsBeard, Madwak55, senna94f1


  6. #6
    Kart Driver
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atak Kat View Post
    Hi, I have read many of the various posts and discussions on FFB but I could not find anything that was helpful. So I will ask and maybe someone can help me understand.

    I'm using T300RS, PS4 (non pro), updated to the new Patch 2 (also T3PA pro, TH8A if that matters).

    No matter what FFB settings I use, I still am getting a lot of 'left/right' force in the wheel that just seems abnormally strong to me. Mainly on the straights is where it is most noticeable. I understand there should be feedback for road conditions etc. And I understand that there can be forces coming through the wheel to translate that (good!) I'm assuming it's some sort of feedback due to the tire forces (like slip, road surface dips, etc, not bumps/curbs) But, it happens at quite strange times (really noticable on straights), and with force that seems much stronger that it should be? It's quite distracting and annoying. It seems completely unpredictable. I'm just trying to understand if it is normal for all users, or just something unique to me.

    My settings are generally:
    Informative
    Gain about 50
    Volumes between 40-50
    Tone about 15 (I've tried a lot of the range, finding that the higher the Tone, the more the left/right forces on the wheel. By putting it lower, this seems to reduce it, but it's still seeming strange and more than I would expect. Also, by having it so low, I think I'm losing the feedback of tire-slip when cornering, etc) TBH, I would like to have the feedback more on the tire forces/slip (rather than bumps), but the force just seems over-the-top. It's like hitting a curb and the wheel turning 30-45 degrees in your hands before you even know it (but there's no curb). And if it was some sort of front 'slip' I'd expect the force to soften, not get dramatically stronger?
    FX somewhere between 30-50.

    I don't know. I've tried a lot of the different suggestions of the settings in other posts, but none of it seems right. No matter what, the strength of the left/right forces are quite strong, and I can't seem to find something close to enjoyable.

    I'm having a really tough time to dial things in so that I can somehow feel the front wheel grip. In my mind (maybe wrong), when loosing front wheel grip there should be some lightening of the force, and some mild vibration. I'm really struggling to understand if PC2 does something like that (so far I can't really tell)

    I realize it might not be possible to compare games. I'm not trying to duplicate what is in AC ffb, but on AC i don't have anything even close to this sort of strong left/right movement in the wheel when driving. And the front wheel grip/slip seems to come through the ffb much more clearly.

    I know its subjective. But does anyone else have the same perception or observation?

    Thanks for any comments or ideas.
    I have been trying to find something similarish ffb too AC, and so far the Informative setting with low volume and tone gets me closer too AC feel. You get a very light feeling when tires are cold but feels very good when they get warm.

    My setting now:

    Informative
    80
    25
    35
    65

    Maybe this helps

  7. #7
    GT5 Pilot
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    Welcome to the forum! Well, I'm not afraid to admit that I'm trying desperately to get my my FFB to feel like AC

    My impressions of the FFB in pCARS 2 are very similar to yours, Atak Kat. I find the weighting to be... off. The immediate off-center feel is too strong, and in addition bumps and road contours have way too much effect on FFB weighting. I'm also on T300, and I can confirm that this wheel has plenty of torque for running raw. Raw is actually the recommended flavor for the T500 and T300.

    Here my tips:

    Telemetry FFB Widget

    Before you begin tuning, you need to be able to read your telemetry hud's FFB widget. This little bugger will tell you a few things:

    - Your current FFB settings (you'll see why this is important later).
    - The current FFB force output.
    - Whether your FFB is "clipping". Clipping is a complex concept, but just think of it as running into the limits of your FFB force.





    Mapping Volume & Tone Buttons

    My experience so far is that the cars in this game vary pretty widely. Settings that work for one car don't necessarily work for another. This means you'll want to be able to tweak your settings on the fly. You can accomplish this in one of two ways:

    1) Map FFB adjustments to your wheel buttons.
    2) Use a USB or Bluetooth keyboard, and map FFB adjustment buttons there.

    I have gone the latter route with a Bluetooth keyboard. I mapped the FFB Volume adjustment to the up/down arrow keys, and my FFB Tone adjustment to the left/right arrow keys. To map your own keys, go to:

    Options, Controls, Edit Assignments, Assistance. You'll see items for Increase FFB Vol, Decrease FFB Vol, etc.

    Gain & Volume Relationship

    As noted in the settings menu help text, the volume setting adjusts the shape of the FFB "curve". So what does this mean? Think of it in terms of force input and force output. I drew up this diagram, based on the game's help text.

    Please note that this is not an official diagram, and I cannot be certain that the curvatures follow this profile. This is simply a conceptual diagram.



    For reference, here is the game help text:

    Volume allows for the adjustment of the Force Feedback's "weight" by altering the shape of the Force Feedback curve. Increasing the volume setting will make the wheel feel heavier, but details such as road surface and kerbs will be less pronounced. Decreasing the volume setting will make the wheel feel lighter, but details such as road surface and kerbs will be more pronounced, while not affecting their overall firmness.

    Volume presets are determined by the Flavour profile selected. How Volume affects the Force Feedback remains the same.

    Effect of Tone on FFB

    While gain and volume affect the amount of FFB and the way it "ramps up", tone determines which forces are felt most strongly through the wheel. Again, the in-game help text is a great clue:

    Tone is the feeling of surface detail and tyre slip. Note that this is also dependent on the "Flavour" that was chosen in Game Options. The setting is an open sweep from Aligning Torque (Mz) force at "0" (where wheel surface detail is more pronounced, but there is less feel when it comes to tyre slip), to Side Load (Fy) force at "1" (where there is a stronger feel with respect to tyre slip, but less surface detail). Find the balance that suits your own personal preference.

    First let's get some terminology out of the way, because understanding the technical terms here will help you interpret the parenthetical detail. Let's have a look at these two terms.

    Aligning Torque (Mz) - The "Mz" stands for moment-z, which is the moment around the z-axis. In game physics "moment" is just rotational force; in this case, around the z-axis, which is oriented up-and-down relative to your car. If you were to grab the front tyre on a car and rotate it, you would be applying Mz force. While driving, the tires always track in the direction of travel. This means that the Mz force will always try to align the front wheels with the direction of travel; hence the reason it is called aligning torque. This force is important for being able to feel understeer. Understeer is felt as a lightening of the force as you turn the wheel past the point of maximum grip.

    Side Load (Fy) - The Fy stands for force-y, which is the force along the z-axis. In game physics "force" is just regular old linear force; in this case, along the y-axis, which is oriented side-to-side relative to your car. This force scales up and down with lateral g-forces that are generated during cornering. If your car begins to oversteer, you will feel a reduction in this force.

    Distilling this down to what forces are affected is helpful. If we remove the parenthetical notes, we get:

    The setting is an open sweep from Aligning Torque (Mz) force at "0", to Side Load (Fy) force at "1".

    Low tone values = more Aligning Torque (Mz) force, and less Side Load (Fy) force

    High tone values = more Side Load (Fy) force, and less Aligning Torque (Mz) force

    In graph format



    An optimal tone setting balances these two forces in a way that allows you to catch oversteer early enough, but also gives you information about the amount of front grip. Also noteworthy is that higher tone values tend to generate much higher peak forces. You'll almost certainly want to reduce your volume setting (and potentially gain) as you increase tone.

    Experimenting With Gain, Volume, and Tone

    I'd love to give you a definitive answer on what settings work best, but so far, I've only been experimenting. I have been trying out two possible settings.

    Minimal gain - Like you, I felt like the FFB in pCARS was heavy and somewhat flat. I think that balancing gain and volume is the key to eliminating this characteristic. My desired FFB is somewhat light on-center, and ramps up with a nice punchy peak at the limit. With a high gain setting, I can't run sufficient volume & tone without clipping. This means I'm never getting into the right-side of the curvature. By lingering in the left side of the curve, the forces are "flattened". To counter this, I've tried running gain on the lower side, and ramping up volume and tone.

    High gain - My concern with the minimal gain strategy is that it will compress the forces into a tighter window, resulting in reduced detail. With this in mind, I've tried running gain at 100, and tuning volume and tone to suit my FFB strength and balance tastes. The benefit of this strategy is that you can easily tweak volume & tone on the fly, so it's easier to adjust on-the-fly when you're in online lobbies.

    Example Settings

    There are a couple of settings that I find somewhat close to AC in the GT3 RS (which is what I use for testing). Having said that, there are some cars in this game that are just terminally broken for me. The Lamborghini Sesto Elemento, for example. You will absolutely have to tweak each car, and some cars will just never feel good.

    Here are my settings notes for the Porsche 911 GT3 RS (IMO, some of the best FFB in the game):

    Car: Porsche 911 GT3 RS
    Setup: SMS Loose
    Circuit: Hockenheim National (Spring 11:00, Med Cloud, 60F ambient, 71F track)
    FFB Flavour: Raw
    Wheel: T300 Ferrari Alcantara
    Pedals: Fanatec CSPv3 (w/ CPX Adapter)

    Gain/Volume/Tone/FX

    50/30/100/15 - Road surface detail is subtle, but it's there. Good feel for where the rear of the car is, with a nice light on-center feel. Even on cold tires, I can feel what the car is doing before it jumps up and bites me. Understeer feel is there, but it's difficult to detect. FFB histogram fills mostly the 3rd and 4th columns, making this a nice mid-strength profile. Still very comfortable (no fatigue here). Very enjoyable settings. The car feels very natural, but there's a lack of feeling of balance subtlety.

    100/50/30/15 - Lots of road surface detail. Weight is heavy on-center, and overall feels a little bit vague. There's a confusing heaviness to the wheel with these settings, and the weight peaks under off-throttle and braking conditions, while becoming much lighter under acceleration. Rear of the car is felt through the weight, but I don't feel like the wheel is tracking the direction of the car as accurately. FFB histogram is heavy in column 2, with not a lot of force elsewhere. This reflects the flatter feeling of these settings. Despite not enjoying the feel as much, I do feel like I can balance oversteer understeer a bit better.

    75/40/80/15 -Feels like a pretty well balanced FFB setup. Road detail is present, and it's easy to tell where the rear of the car is, while not drowning out the feeling of balance between oversteer and understeer. Unfortunately, these settings result in the same on-center heaviness that I've been trying desperately to dial out. You must hold the wheel firmly while using these settings, or the car goes into a death wobble. Disappointing, but otherwise drivable.

    Updates

    2017-10-21:
    - Updated tone section based on clarifications elsewhere.
    - Updated tone graph to correct sweeps (were previously reversed; incorrectly).
    Last edited by bradleyland; 13-11-2017 at 02:25. Reason: More corrections for clarification.
    COMPETITIVE RACING LICENSE Infographic | FFB INFO | SAFE IS FAST
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  8. #8
    GT5 Pilot
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    Because I wrote a friggin novel in my last post, lemme just pull this out. The combo below feels pretty similar to my Assetto Corsa FFB setup. Unfortunately, the tone setting of 100 will not work well with all cars, so enjoy this specific car/track combo, and let's hope that we can manage this same feel from other cars.

    Car: Porsche 911 GT3 RS
    Setup: SMS Loose
    Circuit: Hockenheim National (Spring 11:00, Med Cloud, 60F ambient, 71F track)
    FFB Flavour: Raw
    Wheel: T300 Ferrari Alcantara
    Pedals: Fanatec CSPv3 (w/ CPX Adapter)

    Gain: 50
    Volume: 30
    Tone: 100
    FX: 15

    FFB notes - Road surface detail is subtle, but it's there. Good feel for where the rear of the car is, with a nice light on-center feel. Even on cold tires, I can feel what the car is doing before it jumps up and bites me. Understeer feel is there, but it's difficult to detect. FFB histogram fills mostly the 3rd and 4th columns, making this a nice mid-strength profile. Still very comfortable (no fatigue here). Very enjoyable settings. The car feels very natural, but there's a lack of feeling of balance subtlety.
    COMPETITIVE RACING LICENSE Infographic | FFB INFO | SAFE IS FAST
    PS4 | FANATEC CSL Elite | FANATEC ClubSport Pedals v3
    The following 7 users likes this Post: alegunner68, Atak Kat, diesel97, GTP_RS172, LeeGestuhl, MYSTYKRACER, spacepadrille


  9. #9
    Superkart Pilot
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    bradleyland. Thank you very much. I'll need to digest that and experiment some more.

    Regarding my calibration. I did recalibrate and do more driving and testing last night. All reset. I would say that it did help somewhat. But didn't really solve the issue I'm perceiving. There is still a lot or left/right force in the wheel at times that just don't make sense to me. I'll keep experimenting.

    Also just to clarify. My goal is not to replicate ac ffb. I look forward to differences in the games. The point is that this left/right force is something that that really sticks out at least to me. And the best reference point I have is ac.
    Last edited by Atak Kat; 17-10-2017 at 04:35. Reason: Hit post too soon
    The following user likes this Post: bradleyland


  10. #10
    GT5 Pilot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atak Kat View Post
    bradleyland. Thank you very much. I'll need to digest that and experiment some more.

    Regarding my calibration. I did recalibrate and do more driving and testing last night. All reset. I would say that it did help somewhat. But didn't really solve the issue I'm perceiving. There is still a lot or left/right force in the wheel at times that just don't make sense to me. I'll keep experimenting.

    Also just to clarify. My goal is not to replicate ac ffb. I look forward to differences in the games. The point is that this left/right force is something that that really sticks out at least to me. And the best reference point I have is ac.
    After a lot of testing, my best suggestion would be to run a higher Tone setting. Based on what I've experience so far, that seems to eliminate the strange weighting just off-center. The settings in post #8 are feeling pretty good to me. You might try those, and slowly back off the tone setting to your liking. As you do that, you'll need to increase gain & volume. I really like the "ramp" on volume 30, so I'd suggest trading tone & gain.
    COMPETITIVE RACING LICENSE Infographic | FFB INFO | SAFE IS FAST
    PS4 | FANATEC CSL Elite | FANATEC ClubSport Pedals v3
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