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Thread: How grip fails

  1. #1
    Superkart Pilot PawelK's Avatar
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    How grip fails

    I was doing a 20-lap online race in Monza. It went pretty well, first I was in P2 behind an alien, then the alien quit so I was about to win. There were some hairy moments with backmarkers, then I braked a tad too late for mandatory pitstop and picked up 10 s penalty. Still it was OK, I had ~15 second gap between me and P2 (after everyone pitted). Then towards the end of the race I started losing grip, and the last 3-4 laps were really horrible. I had to tiptoe through Roggia and Ascari. Both on the last and the penultimate lap I got horrible oversteer on Parabolica to the point that the car went on the grass on the inside and scraped the barrier. ANd I wasn't pushing because I already did not feel comfortable wit the grip. I survived but in total lost enough time for the gap to drop to 7 second seconds or so, and with the penalty I finished in P2.

    Now what's puzzling me is that I did not see any tire problems in telemetry. Pressures were fine, temp was in green, there was little wear (I was driving on hards because of high track temp). Anyone has any idea what else could make me lose that much of grip? Or was it all in my head and just my driving became crappy in that long race?

  2. #2
    Superkart Pilot Twinz's Avatar
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    Did you save the race? You could post a video of both before and after you experienced the issue. It sounds weird.
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  3. #3
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    This sounds similar to my issues with soft rear tyres in GT3 cars. I've experienced it in 911 (at every track, also the RSR), NSX, M6 and maybe a couple others. Temps at high 90c.

    I'd get oversteer coming out of, if I'm lucky, ascari and at parabolica.

    Now the tyre temp display shows core temps not surface temps. My suspicion was the surface temp is high. I seem to have reduced the problem in the RSR by having minimum rear springs and max front springs. The other cars are better too with ~30% wheel rate difference according to Jussi's calculator (30% softer rear). Also sometimes needing stiff front swaybar.

    Without more extensive tyre telemetry I don't think we'll get to the bottom of this. The in game telemetry won't show the symptoms.
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  4. #4
    Superkart Pilot PawelK's Avatar
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    Twinz unfortunately I did not. After 20 laps and being somewhat pissed at myself for losing in the last moment, I did not press the save button in the short time when it was available. Hope we'll get auto-save in PC2.

    hkraft300 that might be it. I wasn't aware that surface tire temp was simulated separately but not shown. Track temp was over 50C when we started. BTW I usually have fronts slightly softer than rears, which makes the car more prone to oversteer.

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    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Not "simulated separately" but the seta tyre model does the temp thing in ~7 layers. We only get the innermost layer displayed in game telemetry.

    So what can happen is the surface temp could be cooking at well over 200c (big slide for example) but the inner core temp doesn't fluctuate much. It's why after a big slide the car still feels slidey for half a lap while the core temp barely moves.
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  6. #6
    WMD Member Invincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Not "simulated separately" but the seta tyre model does the temp thing in ~7 layers. We only get the innermost layer displayed in game telemetry.

    So what can happen is the surface temp could be cooking at well over 200c (big slide for example) but the inner core temp doesn't fluctuate much. It's why after a big slide the car still feels slidey for half a lap while the core temp barely moves.
    And before anyone asks: No, displaying the outside layers would not be an option since the flash heat temperature can spike up to 300 °C at the surface. Which means that your displayed tire temperatures would be all over the place and therefore next to useless, even if you only used the 3rd or 4th layer. They would heat up and cool down too quickly to give you useful information about the current condition of your tires.

    Edit: In an ideal world, you'd see the temperatures of all layers if you want to. But in the telemetry screen fro example, this could easily lead to too many numbers, as you have three areas of a tire which 7 layers each. Thus 21 temperature points at each tire. I'd imagine it pretty difficult to read anything useful from it.
    Last edited by Invincible; 18-02-2020 at 08:13.
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  7. #7
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    ^ I remember that discussion.

    Anyway, back to the problem at hand. Let's assume the rear tyres were cooking after ascari. That could tip the rear tyres over the edge through parabolica.
    However, I'd have guessed the short straight would cool it but maybe not.

    So the only thing I could suggest is to soften the rear and take some load away from the tyres and into the springs.

    I'm just guessing.
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    WMD Member blankfile's Avatar
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    Also add to this that by driving scared/slower into corners you are lowering the downforce at which you take the corner which can make the rear even slidier if it was already near the limit.
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  9. #9
    Superkart Pilot PawelK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invincible View Post
    And before anyone asks: No, displaying the outside layers would not be an option.
    Also it's a sim. IRL, can you physically have a sensor in the outermost layer of the rubber? I wouldn't think so

  10. #10
    Superkart Pilot PawelK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankfile View Post
    Also add to this that by driving scared/slower into corners you are lowering the downforce at which you take the corner which can make the rear even slidier if it was already near the limit.
    Could be though it was GT3 so not that much df to begin with and I had df set to pretty low because Monza

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