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Thread: Devs, I have a solution to your license and e-sports problem

  1. #1
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    Devs, I have a solution to your license and e-sports problem

    I love the cars, tracks and handling model of PC2 but the online racing license system should be improved

    So I made a post in this thread last night and would recommend to give that a read as it explains what the problems are that I have had with regards to the broken system: Time Trials-noone-can-access

    Now for the solution (nothing is perfect but I believe this system would be better than current one)

    * as PC2 is marketed as a sim and one of the best ever made with attention to details and representative of real Motorsport, points should be scored like it is in real Racing. ie: 1st-25, 2nd-20, 3rd-18(or 15). And then so on until the last point is given to the guy that finishes in 10th or 12th getting a single point.

    * points should under no circumstances be removed because of being beaten by somebody that has less points than you. This is ridiculous for a number of reasons:

    1. Different track suit different drivers

    2. Different cars suit different drivers

    3. Setups might be better or worse for that given race and or Conditions

    4. Might be a much better driver than you but he honed his skill in single player so has less points on his License.
    The current system where you either loose points or gain single digit scores for getting a good result (podium) against lower rated drivers actually does not represent your performance and respect the podium or your position and performance of the race.

    A good example of how bad this is: imagine if Schumacher in the years that he dominated got 8 points for a victory instead of full points, with race direction telling him we will not give you full points because the guys that you beat aren’t as good as you, or their car is slower so you don’t deserve 25 points.
    Or even worse comes 4th and looses 8 points because of the same reason stated above. Same goes to Valentino Rossi etc.

    * like all professional racers, they have lifetime total points earned. Means that in a career spanning X amount of years, Damon Hill scores X amount of points in total, And one can rank all the drivers that have raced according to these points.
    The PC2 license should follow this same concept. No points should be deducted. At all...
    the question then comes but how do you penalize somebody that cheats or rams people out of the race, that should be moved entirely to your safety rating only. And perhaps make that more difficult to increase your rating. One can discuss in a different post how to sort this out better.

    *. This might require the official online events to be increased in rating required, for example from 1600 being th lowest to 2000 being the lowest because points no longer get deducted. It can also be moved higher year after year if needed as everybody ranks up and increases their total points scored.

    *. Points can only be scored in a race that has a grid size of the minimum required amount of drivers. ie: if it is decided that 10th position will get the last single point, the race must start with a minimum of 10 cars on the grid. This will divide the individuals that want to increase their rank for online races and the guys that do not care and just want to race for whatever reason other than that. Also, will ensure that we see more full lobbies instead of having 50 running lobbies with 3 cars on the grid Racing.

    * this system will also reward and promote you to come race online and grind away as much as you can. Currently it doesn’t as the minute you rank up anything can happen in your next race to reduce your points again, this definitely ruins that drive and motivation to do another race and another and another...

    I feel this system will be more representative of a simulation that wants to target competitive racing instead of your license representing a lotto system where points gained or lossed is determined by the amount of trolls you have in the lobby or the current “skill” rating of the other guys.

    I also feel that the skill levels of all drivers (not the safety rating system or the system that indicates how long you have been driving with the colours) should get a reset before implementing this system. There will be upset people but there’s will also be people greatful for this as they lost many points because of crashes and bugs.

    I will add more ideas to this post As I think of them
    Last edited by Campo675; 10-01-2018 at 09:08.
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  2. #2
    Kart Driver PoL's Avatar
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    I don't think they think there is a problem

    Wow! 'taking on the dev team'. I'm in QA for work and I know that this kind of thing has some suggestive undertones that devs don't always respond to so positively. So i'm commenting to add context where they might not.

    I'm not saying I entirely disagree with your points above, actually it's quite good. BUT with all due respect, you are actually suggesting that WMD made the incorrect decision to go with online/eSports-like rating system (similiar to MMR in Dota2 or SC2).
    Presuming they would have done their research (literally) before implementing this system, they are unlikely to revamp the entire system to simulate real life systems in championships for Online lobbies. Rather they are more likely adjust / amend what currently exists.

    I love F1 as much as the next guy, probably a bit more, yeah sure you can't penalise a Schumacher because he is better - but at that level and in real life - it makes sense to award the full 25 points for that race for that season. When it comes to moderating a group of consumers in a fair manner for custom online races, the ranking needs to be somewhat standardised, however the hosts of online races determine the entry criteria e.g. a lot of guys host U100 even though they are like A1500 to get the party started.

    IMHO Hard points should be applied to careers/seasons. But yeah if they can find a way to give 'hard points' in an esports you would end up with like 5 gazillion points after 2 years of playing onlines.

    I think the core of the problem is that you, the consumer (and me) have been given a simulation game worthy of simulating EVERYTHING even down to the points systems, but yet you (and me) have been ranked according to a lifetime rating for online gaming which is... seemingly inequitable, but i'm quite confident there is method to the madness. How else do you split the pros from the noobs?

    Anyway nice and refreshing to read your thoughts.
    GL HF



    Oh to add to you list of reasons:
    * points should under no circumstances be removed because of being beaten by somebody that has less points than you. This is ridiculous for a number of reasons:

    5. Some drivers use assists and others not, also some glitches can cause this.

  3. #3
    Moderator Sankyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campo675 View Post
    The current system where you either loose points or gain single digit scores for getting a good result (podium) against lower rated drivers actually does not represent your performance and respect the podium or your position and performance of the race.

    A good example of how bad this is: imagine if Schumacher in the years that he dominated got 8 points for a victory instead of full points, with race direction telling him we will not give you full points because the guys that you beat aren’t as good as you, or their car is slower so you don’t deserve 25 points.
    Or even worse comes 4th and looses 8 points because of the same reason stated above. Same goes to Valentino Rossi etc.

    * like all professional racers, they have lifetime total points earned. Means that in a career spanning X amount of years, Damon Hill scores X amount of points in total, And one can rank all the drivers that have raced according to these points.
    The PC2 license should follow this same concept. No points should be deducted. At all...
    the question then comes but how do you penalize somebody that cheats or rams people out of the race, that should be moved entirely to your safety rating only. And perhaps make that more difficult to increase your rating. One can discuss in a different post how to sort this out better.
    Championship points is something different than skill points. A system that does not deduce points does not include or represent current performance, only past performance.

    If a 3-time champion suddenly cannot drive competitively anymore because the cars have changed that he cannot cope and he's only able to drive at the rear of the field, his points gathered in the past would still place him well above half of the field while his current performance doesn't agree. Only if points are deduced based on the other drivers' skill ratings, his skill rating would converge to his current ability as it should.
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  4. #4
    WMD Member Mad Al's Avatar
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    Sorry, but you appear to be getting confused between a ranking system and a championship points system.. they aren't the same, the license is all about RELATIVE performance, so yes, if you get beaten by someone who is a lower ranked player, you drop points whilst they gain them.

    Just throwing 25 points to the winner of a race means, he who races most, ends up at the front.. and that's complete BS because it takes no account of the quality or depth of a field. Do I suddenly become a better racer because I beat a bunch of racers who I should have beaten... no I don't.

    The current points system will eventually stabilise around where each player sits in relative terms, irrespective of cars, tracks or setups.. and use of different setups, input devices or assists is irrelevant.

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  5. #5
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    I didn’t not have any undertones in my heading. I posted this thread in a positive way as there are many complaints etc. but very few posts about or for honest improvements.

    I am indeed not mistaking a ranking system for a championship system... PC2 is not an RPG. I fully understand that it is the creative freedom to do whatever you want with your creation. So if SMS is completely happy with this system then so be it. But honestly one must be extremely naive to believe that this system is currently working.

    You guys gave examples as to why my idea might not work, and yes nothing will ever be perfect.
    But, what is more fair:

    * a racer that has gained points over the last year of Racing, then a latest build comes around and he struggles. You guys state that he should be evaluated on his current performance and not his past. But my system does just that, as he will then not score any points or if he comes 9th or 10th only get 1 or 2 points. This then will allow the guys that struggled with the previous build to catch up to the guy that did better. Hopefully this was understood as not easy to explain.

    Or is it more fair for a good racer to be taken out by a dirty racer with lower points, The dirty racer goes and finishes ahead of the better cleaner driver and scores double points, while the better cleaner driver actually gets points deducted for contact and being beaten by the dirty driver. It would be much easier to stomach the race results if I don’t get points deducted by something that was out of my control. And people can say what they want, if somebody wants to take you out, they will do it, there will be very very few times where you can honestly avoid that situation.

    I ask again, please read my post that I made in the other thread before dismissing what I am suggesting.

  6. #6
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    I do not know if anyone here played "Sonic All-Star Racing Transformed", but there we started with 1000 points and we can increase or decrease according to our results, the system is equal to Pcars 2, but I feel the distribution is much fairer.

  7. #7
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    Just think of it again, with your system, if an average player plays the sim all day, he can easily do 20 races in one day. Even by finishing always 5th, he will accumulate 200 points this day alone. An excellent player who always win, but only has time for 2-3 races per day, will only accumulate 50-75 points...You cannot measure relative performance with your system, you can mainly measure for how much time each players spends racing.

    The current system is good more or less, it is indicative right now of people's abilities. In my opinion the only problem is that points are removed (and not added to someone else) when rage quitting/disconnecting etc, and this is unbalancing the system, which resulted to making a win give more points after patch 3, which i suspect will further unbalance it after a while. But on the other hand, such quitting should definitely be penalized in sme way, and I can't personally think of a good alternative one.

    That's about the performance ranking, the safety ranking is a completely different discussion and unfortunately a lot of people since confuse those 2. Maybe it would be a good idea for SMS to explain those 2 rankings in detail in game? Maybe some text in the affinity screen or somewhere similar...
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  8. #8
    WMD Member Mad Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campo675 View Post
    ...

    I ask again, please read my post that I made in the other thread before dismissing what I am suggesting.
    I have and you aren't getting the point.

    It's about RELATIVE performances... with a simple points for places system, if you raced the same 25 people day in day out and always finish in the same order, the points spread would just continue to grow. With the current system, the points will eventually settle.

    Someone scoring 5000 finishes of 1 point in your system is the same as someone scoring 200 finishes of 25 points.. you consider those to be equal racers ?

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Al View Post
    I have and you aren't getting the point.

    It's about RELATIVE performances... with a simple points for places system, if you raced the same 25 people day in day out and always finish in the same order, the points spread would just continue to grow. With the current system, the points will eventually settle.

    Someone scoring 5000 finishes of 1 point in your system is the same as someone scoring 200 finishes of 25 points.. you consider those to be equal racers ?
    So its relative performances loosing points because when you need to retire to pits because somebody scrapped your car?
    Its relative performances loosing points for giving back positions gained when having to avoid a wreck fest in front of you?
    "" loosing points when the game crashes, or some other bug causes you not to finish etc?

    with the system that is implemented at the moment, not only do my points mentioned above hold true, but also, unless your are an alien, qualify in first and go through the corner before the guys from the back can take you out in the first couple of corners and then drive away from danger. the opportunity to rank up is extremely extremely small and unfair

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campo675 View Post
    So its relative performances loosing points because when you need to retire to pits because somebody scrapped your car?
    Its relative performances loosing points for giving back positions gained when having to avoid a wreck fest in front of you?
    "" loosing points when the game crashes, or some other bug causes you not to finish etc?

    with the system that is implemented at the moment, not only do my points mentioned above hold true, but also, unless your are an alien, qualify in first and go through the corner before the guys from the back can take you out in the first couple of corners and then drive away from danger. the opportunity to rank up is extremely extremely small and unfair
    I didn't fully explain that very well. think of it like this, with the current system, you say that I can be judged on my rating I have at this very moment, but how is that a reflection on my performance if I have lost more than 400 points in unfair situations. surely then my rating is not actually representative of my actual capability?

    Also, if you just think about it, my system will eventually also balance itself in the long run. there are thousands of players, those that can manage to win race after race will all end up with the highest ratings, so will automatically make it into the top tiers. so to the guys that finish mid pack and tail enders.
    Last edited by Campo675; 10-01-2018 at 13:31.

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