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Thread: Why do I have to give the position back?

  1. #61
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    Yeap, @MaximusN and @Cristi answered it pretty well I think. That's what I tried to do, to push on the limit, brake at the very last moment before the S and take it as fast as possible to try for the overtake in the next small straight, but this time I exceeded the limit, I think it's inevitable that it will happen once or twice when you push. In all the other laps I also pushed in the same place, but had managed to stay within the valid limits, except for this case. As I said, I agree I should lift off and certainly not overtake after this "cut". But lose 2 seconds, so end of fight because of one mistake during such an intense battle? I don't think so...
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  2. #62
    Superkart Pilot rich1e I's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cristi View Post
    People aren't saying you shouldn't receive a penalty for that. People are saying that the penalty received is way too harsh compared to the offence. Name one other racing game or real life racing series where you would get a slow down penalty in that situation: cutting a chicane by less than 50cm. I bet everyone gives out a warning.
    In RL leaving the track is very dangerous and it could be a threat to the race driver's life. Jumping the chicane would most likely unsettle the car and ruin it for team, team owner, sponsors etc. So the focus is staying on track because it's safer. Even on the track it's unsafe driving outside the racing line because there's not so much grip. Sometimes drivers exceed track limits in the heat when they're being chased, that's also why plenty of DTs are handed out.
    Other racing games are no reference. Why should I name one? If I'm not mistaken Ian Bell said warnings are not coming because it will be exploited, so it will probably be slow downs. The question is how it's calculated and if it's fair.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    In RL leaving the track is very dangerous and it could be a threat to the race driver's life. Jumping the chicane would most likely unsettle the car and ruin it for team, team owner, sponsors etc. So the focus is staying on track because it's safer.
    If it's a matter of safety you don't punish a driver by taking away time from them and by putting them in danger by having to go so slow with cars flying past them at race speed. Slowing down a car in the name of safety makes no sense. That's why they invented drive through penalties and disqualifications. Slow downs are clearly meant to punish an unfair advantage. It has nothing to do with safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    Other racing games are no reference. Why should I name one?
    I didn't ask only about racing games, i also asked about real life racing. That is what we're trying to emulate, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    If I'm not mistaken Ian Bell said warnings are not coming because it will be exploited
    There are times when warnings can be exploited, yes. Such as in qualifying. That's why the rules during qualifying have to be more strict than during racing. But, since PC2 does implement a driver score system, warnings can and should impact the driver's score. Add onto that the fact that different levels of infraction should incur different levels of penalization, and i don't really see how you can exploit them. If you cut a corner just a little bit, it might give you a little advantage, but in a 8-10 lap race, how much of an advantage is that when you can only do it 3 times before getting a penalty? Not to mention that your score will go down, so you'll never see drivers like that in the higher levels. But if you decide to cut the track more to gain even more of an advantage to make it worth it, you'll get a penalty outright. Maybe even a slow down. I can see the point of a slow down if i'm 2-3 meters outside the white lines, trying to cut a corner or something, but if i just went out by a few inches, it's clearly not malicious.

    At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself what actually matters the most? It's a racing game. Most of us are here because we're racing enthusiasts. We like the thrill of racing door to door with someone just as good as us. We like the thrill of being on the edge of grip. Most of us would not cut a corner to gain an advantage, and that is why it's so incredibly frustrating for us to receive such harsh penalties for mistakes we wish we wouldn't make to being with. I understand that not all people are like that, and those are the people Ian Bell had in mind when he's concerned about exploits. And i agree with him. No one wants those people in their games. But the only way to improve that situation, in my opinion, is not by punishing everyone severely, but by trusting the driver score system. Every cut track should be a warning and a hit on your points. If you do it intentionally and repeatedly, you won't get far. If you outright cut corners by a wide margin, your score will drop like a stone. If a driver wants to drive correctly, he will be out of the lower tiers in no time. iRacing can do it. The rookie tiers in iRacing are plagued with bad drivers, but it's still very much possible to get out of those tiers and into the serious racer tiers, where despite the indulgent penalty system, opened to drivers racing in an unsafe or exploitative manner, no one does it. That's why i asked you to name games. Because other games have shown that you can have decent, exciting races with serious, respectful drivers despite not having an incredibly harsh penalty system. Why can't PC2 be the same?

    /rant over
    The following 2 users likes this Post: Interchangeable, Mad LL


  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cristi View Post
    At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself what actually matters the most? It's a racing game. Most of us are here because we're racing enthusiasts. We like the thrill of racing door to door with someone just as good as us. We like the thrill of being on the edge of grip. Most of us would not cut a corner to gain an advantage, and that is why it's so incredibly frustrating for us to receive such harsh penalties for mistakes we wish we wouldn't make to being with.
    I think you said it all perfectly with the above!

  5. #65
    WMD Member Interchangeable's Avatar
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    The main probelm with a taking away points for cutting is it's unfair to newer players of the game. Most of the time cutting of the track limits is by mistake and new drivers make more mistakes than seasoned ones. If a new driver keeps getting points taken away then they're soon going to become fed up with the game and not play it, which is what we don't want! Nearly every online race I'm in I see a player lose out on a win or good postition by a mistake which made them cut the track.

    Most people have a set way in which the drive a car, clam and smooth or fast and agressive, and in order to not cut the track you need to change the way in which you believe how fast the car is able to take a corner Brake early and let the car role before you boot the gas helps. And as I keep saying "a race is not 15 Qualy laps. It's 15 racing laps" drive at 90% of your & your cars abilty and focus on being smooth and having a good lap time grouping 'cause that'll win you the race. Trust me!

    For me the only fair way to implement a system is slow down in which you only give back the time or postition gained.

    In most real world racing series if you leave the track and gained a ever lasting advantage by doing so then you will most likely be punsihed either with a DT (For multiple warnings), stop-go (most likely) or DQ (Rare).

    In most cases the safe thing to do is to leave the track if a car is blocking it. If you get a penatly for overtaking that car then something needs to be addressed.

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  6. #66
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    This discussion is useless. Were trying to solve an emotional viewpoint with rational argument. It's just not going to work.

    So either this thing gets fixed to my (non-rational) liking, or the penalties stay off. From now on not only offline, but also online. It's better for all our blood pressures.



    PS: This is the first and only race sim ever(and I have raced a lot in 25+ years) where I turned penalties off. I didn't even consider it before.




    And I have two years of iRacing under my belt and was okay with their penalties.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interchangeable View Post
    The main probelm with a taking away points for cutting is it's unfair to newer players of the game. Most of the time cutting of the track limits is by mistake and new drivers make more mistakes than seasoned ones. If a new driver keeps getting points taken away then they're soon going to become fed up with the game and not play it, which is what we don't want! Nearly every online race I'm in I see a player lose out on a win or good postition by a mistake which made them cut the track.
    It's not unfair. You cut the track, you lose points. Under the current system it's even more annoying. You get hit with a huge delay for seemingly nothing. If the game lets you carry on with a penalty to your points, you can get a better position which will bring enough points to offset the points you lost by mistake. But if you never get to even compete with other people, you will definitely quit. I don't see how receiving a small penalty for a small mistake is worse than receiving a race costing penalty for a small mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interchangeable View Post
    For me the only fair way to implement a system is slow down in which you only give back the time or postition gained.
    That is impossible to implement because you have no way of determining how much time was lost or won.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interchangeable View Post
    In most real world racing series if you leave the track and gained a ever lasting advantage by doing so then you will most likely be punsihed either with a DT (For multiple warnings), stop-go (most likely) or DQ (Rare)
    Yes. Correct. Why can't we have that too?

    Look, i kinda agree with MaximusN. I see your point, i understand where you're coming from, and i can only hope you see my point as well. All we can realistically do is way for patch 4 and hope SMS have some improvements planned. I'm sure they're aware of the issue.

  8. #68
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cristi View Post
    It's not unfair. You cut the track, you lose points. Under the current system it's even more annoying. You get hit with a huge delay for seemingly nothing. If the game lets you carry on with a penalty to your points, you can get a better position which will bring enough points to offset the points you lost by mistake. But if you never get to even compete with other people, you will definitely quit. I don't see how receiving a small penalty for a small mistake is worse than receiving a race costing penalty for a small mistake.
    But it's not taking away points(only in a secondary way), just taking away more time than you gained. I'd be okay if it would deduct points(either safety or skill). Deduct 10 skill points or drop me 25% down on safety(between levels). I don't care about them. It's taking me out of my race experience(into a game experience). That's the only thing I care about. I'm A(51%) 1500 something so it's not like I'm low down.

    The skill and safety rating are only there to rate you against others(for safe and/or close racing), not for a championship. And even if it were that, I'm here for the experience not fame.

    Look, I'm a Nick Heidfeld(one of my favorite F1 drivers*) of simracing allthough not as fast. I make mistakes, but they are completely unintentional. I really don't like a sim that treats me like they are.

    *= Juan Pablo is the other
    Last edited by MaximusN; 13-01-2018 at 23:35.
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  9. #69
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    I'm starting to think that might be a solution. Just deduct points either safety or skill. Love to see 'the rules are rules guys' sore up. I really don't care one bit.

    Edit: Sorry it was A1604. That's how much I care.
    Last edited by MaximusN; 13-01-2018 at 23:51.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    I'm starting to think that might be a solution. Just deduct points either safety or skill. Love to see 'the rules are rules guys' sore up. I really don't care one bit
    Yeah. And the higher class you are, more points are deducted. After all, it's expected that if you're high up the order, you drive well enough to not make mistakes. Even so, they wouldn't ruin your race, which is what matters.

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