Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Shock Measurements

  1. #1
    Kart Driver
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    6
    Platform
    PC

    Shock Measurements

    Hi Everyone,

    I'm new to Project Cars 2 but I'm not new to racing. I'm a data engineer/driver coach for a Ferrari Challenge team and I'm trying to setup the Ferrari Challenge car in Project Cars 2 to be as similar as I can to the real Ferrari Challenge Cars. However, I'm confused about the shock measurements that Project Cars 2 is using. In reality we only have two shock packages, standard and optional, and I have the dyno charts for these shocks. The velocity that the shock moves of course changes based on the amount of force. For example at a force of 2000 N the standard shock is moving at about .07 m/s in rebound so that would equate to 28,571 N/m/s. But at 5000 N the shock is moving at about .5 m/s so that would equate to 10,000 N/m/s. However, in PC2 there is a fixed range for each shock movement. I think for slow rebound the setting ranges from something like 8,000 N/m/s to 35,000 N/m/s (but I could be remembering this wrong) and you can choose a number in this range. How do these measurements in PC2 relate to a dyno chart?

    Btw, I'm hoping that an engineer from PC2 sees this message.

    Thanks,

    Ray

  2. #2
    Superkart Pilot Zeratall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    340
    Platform
    PC
    Quote Originally Posted by racinray View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    I'm new to Project Cars 2 but I'm not new to racing. I'm a data engineer/driver coach for a Ferrari Challenge team and I'm trying to setup the Ferrari Challenge car in Project Cars 2 to be as similar as I can to the real Ferrari Challenge Cars. However, I'm confused about the shock measurements that Project Cars 2 is using. In reality we only have two shock packages, standard and optional, and I have the dyno charts for these shocks. The velocity that the shock moves of course changes based on the amount of force. For example at a force of 2000 N the standard shock is moving at about .07 m/s in rebound so that would equate to 28,571 N/m/s. But at 5000 N the shock is moving at about .5 m/s so that would equate to 10,000 N/m/s. However, in PC2 there is a fixed range for each shock movement. I think for slow rebound the setting ranges from something like 8,000 N/m/s to 35,000 N/m/s (but I could be remembering this wrong) and you can choose a number in this range. How do these measurements in PC2 relate to a dyno chart?

    Btw, I'm hoping that an engineer from PC2 sees this message.

    Thanks,

    Ray
    Not sure where the disconnect is for you, but you described exactly how dampers work in game and real life. Check the units. The units in game are N/m/s aka Force/(Shock Speed).

    Regarding a dyno chart, you don't need a dyno chart in game like you do in real life, a shock in real life isn't a perfect shock and there are frictional forces and heating of the working fluid that actually change its damping values (when you don't want them to). Which is why you run it on a dyno to characterize its performance, and to see what actual force's your getting and how far the offset is from the manufactures spec. The game models dampers as ideal dampers meaning what you set them to in the settings menu is what you get.
    RacingSimTools.com : Owner
    PC2Tuner, Car Tuning Software - https://www.racingsimtools.com/product-page/pc2tuner
    Tuning Discord :https://discord.gg/w2MeTey

  3. #3
    Kart Driver
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    6
    Platform
    PC
    Ok, I was thinking that model for the shock in the SIM mimicked the shock dyno graph.

    Ray

  4. #4
    Kart Driver supremedk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    99
    Platform
    PC
    I think the game went a little too deep on the damper settings in game. 90% of ppl using PC2 will not understand how a damper slope works, instead of listing the adjustment in force/travel they could have just used numbers, or "clicks", like a real damper adjuster knob(and IRACING). Thats basically what i do in game, count the number of adjustments there are for the particular car I'm in, if there are 30 "clicks" i know that its 1 soft,30 hard (or reverse) and use that to guide my adjustments. If i remember right not all cars have the same amount of adjustment or are on the same force curve.

    I do the same for roll bar in game.

    Ray, who do you work for? I do some Ferrari challenge with the team i work for.
    PC2 user SLOWLEAK Fanatec : Trakracer : Alienware : GTX1080TI : RIFT

  5. #5
    Kart Driver
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    6
    Platform
    PC
    Quote Originally Posted by supremedk View Post
    I think the game went a little too deep on the damper settings in game. 90% of ppl using PC2 will not understand how a damper slope works, instead of listing the adjustment in force/travel they could have just used numbers, or "clicks", like a real damper adjuster knob(and IRACING). Thats basically what i do in game, count the number of adjustments there are for the particular car I'm in, if there are 30 "clicks" i know that its 1 soft,30 hard (or reverse) and use that to guide my adjustments. If i remember right not all cars have the same amount of adjustment or are on the same force curve.

    I do the same for roll bar in game.

    Ray, who do you work for? I do some Ferrari challenge with the team i work for.

    I agree with you on the shock settings. Even on real shocks most club and semi-pro racers just go by the number of clicks and don't look at the shock dyno graphs. The PC2 measurement figures are interesting to me just because I can to compare them to the shock dyno graphs. It doesn't seem like they match very well. In regards to sway bars, I haven't even seen what the force levels are on the real Ferrari Challenge car. Just soft, medium, and hard.

    I support Ferrari of Atlanta and my company is Precision Driving Analytics. I would post the website but the forum won't let me.

    Cheers,

    Ray

  6. #6
    Superkart Pilot Zeratall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    340
    Platform
    PC
    Quote Originally Posted by racinray View Post
    I agree with you on the shock settings. Even on real shocks most club and semi-pro racers just go by the number of clicks and don't look at the shock dyno graphs.
    You guys realize that having measurement in terms of clicks or medium, soft, hard gives you no context and tells you nothing right? You don't know how much adjustment your getting per click, or what the total range of adjustment is. When an engineer sets up a car IRL they know exactly what dampening value correlates with what setting adjustment or 'clicks' as you guys mentioned.

    Another reason clicks in sim racing is pointless is how do you identify what modes of the car your critically damped in if you don't even know what dampening force your generating?

    You don't use dyno charts to tune the dampers. You use dynamic mode data in pitch,roll, heave to determine if you need more or less which is why so many teams using post rigs. Dyno graphs are good for identifying what setting gives you what dampening value aka how off the dampers are from spec, but will not tell you what ideal dampening values you should be using for a given car / track.
    Last edited by Zeratall; 25-06-2019 at 05:32.
    RacingSimTools.com : Owner
    PC2Tuner, Car Tuning Software - https://www.racingsimtools.com/product-page/pc2tuner
    Tuning Discord :https://discord.gg/w2MeTey
    The following user likes this Post: Bealdor


  7. #7
    Kart Driver
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    6
    Platform
    PC
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeratall View Post
    You guys realize that having measurement in terms of clicks or medium, soft, hard gives you no context and tells you nothing right? You don't know how much adjustment your getting per click, or what the total range of adjustment is. When an engineer sets up a car IRL they know exactly what dampening value correlates with what setting adjustment or 'clicks' as you guys mentioned.

    Another reason clicks in sim racing is pointless is how do you identify what modes of the car your critically damped in if you don't even know what dampening force your generating?

    You don't use dyno charts to tune the dampers. You use dynamic mode data in pitch,roll, heave to determine if you need more or less which is why so many teams using post rigs. Dyno graphs are good for identifying what setting gives you what dampening value aka how off the dampers are from spec, but will not tell you what ideal dampening values you should be using for a given car / track.
    Zeratall,

    You are absolutely correct in regards to how the pro teams analyze the data to make shock and other setup changes. But you are assuming that every race team has shock sensors and/or strain gauges. Most of the race teams out there are not pro teams and they don't have them. We don't even have them on the Ferrari Challenge cars. I would love to have that data though!! If you don't have the right sensors then the only way to determine what direction to go is to use the feedback from the driver and you can also analyze the understeer and oversteer in the data -- which I end up doing a lot. Nevertheless, if you don't have all the data that you need to do a proper analysis then you are going to go by the number of clicks on the shocks. You know how many clicks are available for the different settings so you make educated guesses as to how many clicks you use.

    Getting back to Project Cars 2, what software can I use to do the analysis to study shock histograms, shock velocities, pitch, roll, etc.? With iRacing I can use the McLaren software and I know a lot of people use MoTec. Also, I wish the settings for the Ferrari Challenge car in Project Cars 2 were closer to what we can do in real life. As I said before, we don't even have adjustable shocks. We have two sets of shocks and two sets of springs that we can use -- that's it. We can also use bump rubbers and packers but those aren't available in PC2.

    Cheers,

    Ray
    The following user likes this Post: blinkngone


  8. #8
    Superkart Pilot Zeratall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    340
    Platform
    PC
    Quote Originally Posted by racinray View Post
    Zeratall,

    Getting back to Project Cars 2, what software can I use to do the analysis to study shock histograms, shock velocities, pitch, roll, etc.?

    Ray
    Hahah you have come to the right place =), but before I talk about that I wanna talk the previous statement, you are correct. If you don't have the data, you can only go off driver feedback and lap times, after all lap time is king =)

    I'm an engineer irl who literally only plays sim racing games for data analysis and car characterization. One of the problems I see in the continued path of sim racing, is that as sim's become more and more realistic (pressure to have better physics). The more the user will need to know about car dynamics. Many people I've seen get frustrated with x,y,z car because it feels a certain way, but normally (especially with pcars2) the setup just needs some work. As you guys know, cars are complex systems, EVERYTHING in terms of setup adjustment is a compromise, if you change one thing your going to adversely affect 2 or 3 other things. So how do you determine an ideal setup then? Well, theirs two approaches,

    1) The first option is you go entirely off driver feedback, driving a LOT of laps changing things and then trying to drill that lap time down. Only problem with this approach is you need to run A LOT of laps, which takes time and in the irl world....money.

    2) The second option is you run a few laps collecting data, see where the car needs to be improved, aka differential, steady state response, transient response, Aero COP, etc. and then make adjustments. The benefit of that is you get to your ideal setup in a much quicker time, without having to run as many laps. The problem with approach 2 is you need to know car dynamics to understand what the graphs are telling you.

    If you look at sim racing, most sim racers take approach 1. But like I said before as sims become more realistic it becomes harder for users to do that, and it becomes frustrating for sim racers because they feel like they are wasting time, aka anything they do doesn't make a difference.

    So for the past year or so, I've started a tuning discord called Racing Sim Tools (RST) its my mission to teach people how to read these charts and what type of behaviors they should be looking out for. As a engineer I basically only drive sims to get experience with setup work and apply the concepts you read about in RCVD and other textbooks.

    In my effort to teach sim racers how to read these graphs I have had to create these graphs, and like you said for sims while the data is being outputted by the sim via udp or shared memory, there isn't a tool to interpret the data in a meaningful way. So I've created my own software lol, It's called RST Software and the new version is coming out this week. It includes pretty much anything you could ever want. and its also much easier to use than Motek or Atlas because its geared for sim racers. A few pictures are below.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_WheelLoads.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	90.7 KB 
ID:	269281
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Histogram.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	75.5 KB 
ID:	269268
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Modes.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	88.4 KB 
ID:	269269
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_RG.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	72.7 KB 
ID:	269270
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_LatBias.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	76.9 KB 
ID:	269271
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Aero.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	90.0 KB 
ID:	269272
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Bumpiness.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	71.4 KB 
ID:	269273
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_DF.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	77.8 KB 
ID:	269274
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Diff.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	82.3 KB 
ID:	269275
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_DS.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	92.2 KB 
ID:	269276
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Gearing.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	80.4 KB 
ID:	269277
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Gearing2.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	71.7 KB 
ID:	269278
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Gearing3.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	80.2 KB 
ID:	269279
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Track.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	71.7 KB 
ID:	269280
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_TC.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	75.4 KB 
ID:	269282
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_TireTemps.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	87.2 KB 
ID:	269283
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RST_Run_Grip.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	52.6 KB 
ID:	269284

    There are a quite a bit more graphs, but I didn't want to post another 10-12 pictures lol. If anything, you should join our discord, we love talking about car dynamics.
    Last edited by Zeratall; 25-06-2019 at 14:52.
    RacingSimTools.com : Owner
    PC2Tuner, Car Tuning Software - https://www.racingsimtools.com/product-page/pc2tuner
    Tuning Discord :https://discord.gg/w2MeTey
    The following 4 users likes this Post: hkraft300, ShneebnaMRR108, Visceral_Syn, Zaskarspants


  9. #9
    Kart Driver
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    6
    Platform
    PC
    Zeratall,

    We are on the same page. It's awesome that you created this software and I agree with your mission. I'll definitely buy it. One of the services that I provide is to create various charts for real racers so that they can look at their data quickly. Of course I also provide data analysis services. I have used SIMs to teach myself a lot of data analysis techniques and I always do a lot of SIM work prior to our race weekends. I raced open wheel cars for 17 years so I use my racing experience as well as the data to help figure out possible setups and just which direction to go in if the car isn't handling the way we want. Maybe there is an opportunity for us to work together.

    Cheers,

    Ray
    Precision Driving Analytics
    The following user likes this Post: blinkngone


  10. #10
    Superkart Pilot Visceral_Syn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    201
    Platform
    PC
    Zeratall,
    I promptly bought your software!
    Game-Rig: Intel i7 4770S | eVGA GTX 1080 | 16GB Crucial Ballistix | Asus Z87-A | BenQ Zowie XL2730 | Microsoft Windows 10 | Logitech z5500 5.1 Digital | Thrustmaster TS-PC | Thrustmaster T3PA-Pro | Thrustmaster TH8A | Natural Point Track IR 4 | Playseats Evolution
    Server: Intel L5639 Xeon | Asus P6T | 12GB Corsair Vengeance | 128GB Crucial SSD | CentOS 7.4 | Linux Kernel 4.14 | pCars˛ Dedicated Server: Beale St. Blues | Steam: Visceral_Syn

    The following user likes this Post: blinkngone


Similar Threads

  1. Shock damage indicator?
    By Harry Pitstop in forum The Garage - Car Setup Talk
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-07-2018, 11:23
  2. Dual Shock 4 question
    By Rambo_Commando in forum Project CARS on Playstation 4
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 30-08-2015, 13:53
  3. Lol, free car, what a shock
    By TrevorAustin in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 30-08-2015, 13:37
  4. Steering issue with dual shock 4
    By Jratiff92 in forum Project CARS on Playstation 4
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 30-05-2015, 21:55
  5. American measurements?
    By Scott Ryerson in forum PS4 - Technical Help & Support
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 13-05-2015, 14:50

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •