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Thread: The "very hard to put a title to" thread

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    Our company has similar anonymous communication channels as SMS has. So we are also exposed on potential "anonymous rage". Point is we are doing all (or even more) to not rage customers. We have direct competition. We cannot afford leaving customers without support (incl communication). We cannot take offense.
    A few questions, in order to keep things in perspective:

    - Does your company sell licenses of extremely complicated software, sized over 20GB with thousands of features for 60 euro?
    - Are many of your customers people of very small age who have never worked (yet) in their lives and feel entitled that everybody works solely for them and always does things exactly the way they want to?
    - Do you allow your customers to come to your forums or at your office if you accept people on person and shout everyday, multiple times per day that your software is crap, your decisions are stupid, that you're not putting any effort on it, while only god knows how many thousands hours you've been working in reality on it, trying to make it as good as you can? And also allow them to even making personal attacks and even threats?
    - Are you or the core developers, or the owners of your company doing direct customer support to thousands of customers (btw, I do, but our company is small and our customers are hundreds)? SMS uses a different model, through this forum and I do see A LOT of support going on. It was very nice seeing the blue guys here as well, but if it helps their piece of mind and their productivity to stay away, then I prefer it this way.

    About admitting mistakes, they admitted that the amount of bugs is much higher than what they are hoping. They said sorry for the problems of the Porsche pack, the lack of additional layouts of the new track (which were added later) and other things. Again, I am not saying all is good, because it definitely isn't. There still exist a lot of bugs and problems and they do not seem to get fixed soon enough, but on the other hand the game is so massive, it gives so many people so much enjoyment. I am seeing so many people with over 500 hours in the game since it was released, some even much more than that, playing every single day, despite the problems the game is so fantastic (have you tried playing some other of the sims lately for comparison...?) and I think the devs deserve a little more respect for the work they have done and the involvement with the community they had attempted to make.
    Last edited by cpcdem; 11-05-2018 at 14:01.

  2. #22
    Superkart Pilot MaXyM's Avatar
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    I really cannot see a point asking such questions. I can answer them if you really want it but does it really matter? We have more customers than SMS, we have more complex software than PC2, but we are not selling "fire and forget" solutions. Are you ok with it?

    SMS had knew the market they are heading for (btw I bet average is not under 25yo). They should be prepared for that. They aren't newcomers.
    If you think SMS has developed the most complicated software over the world selling it to most irresponsible customers - you are simply wrong.
    In fact, the most complicated parts of this game are: physics engine and gfx engine. But those parts have almost no issues (or are not such evident). Most issues comes from infrastructure code, UI, file operations. Those all are basic operations. Nothing complex.

    Speaking about mistakes, I remember Ian said, that the game is not broken because it works and it contains more features than competitions. He forgot to mention no single of these features works as expected. No single one. If you know the one - hit me.

    I also have registered a few hundred of hours in PC2. But it doesn't say a word about how many features I had to skip, because they are still not working or are incomplete. Or how many hours we wasted figuring out why the game doesn't work as described and how to make it work to reward this time.
    Personally I don't think it's a matter of respect. But if you are putting a respect on the table, try to counterweight it with respect to customers who got half-baked product which is remaining unfixed after more than half a year.
    Last edited by MaXyM; 11-05-2018 at 14:51.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    Speaking about mistakes, I remember Ian said, that the game is not broken because it works and it contains more features than competitions. He forgot to mention no single of these features works as expected. No single one. If you know the one - hit me.
    You mean from the features that are not available in other sims? The day-night cycle looks almost perfect to me. The visual quality of so many dozens tracks and cars looks perfect, too. I can list many more, but it does not really matter, you could still argue that for you they are much less than perfect and in any case it does not change the fact that there indeed still exist a lot of problems.

    All I am saying is that they deserve a lot more respect for their work and a big thank you for creating and giving us such a masterpiece, which allows us to have 100s and 100s of hours of enjoyment and adrenaline rush and all that for an extremely affordable price. And together with the praises, comes as well a necessity indeed to fix many of the problems, but I think they have acknowledged this. In fact I think this game could be left with absolutely no further new features at all and it will be the absolute king for more than 5 years into the future, just provided that the bugs are fixed. I also do not know how much they are dedicated into doing that, I hope they are very much dedicated, because the base quality of PC2 deserves it, but one thing I am absolutely certain about is that they do not deserve hearing some of the insults some people throw at them.
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  4. #24
    Moderator Konan's Avatar
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    Respect to customers means foremost listening to them and working on issues that are bothering/concerning them...both of these i can tell you are happening.
    Why is it so important to some of you to hear the exact words from the devs themselves?
    If you buy a car and it has a problem do you contact the dealer where you bought it or do you talk to someone from the factory who worked on a part of the car?
    If you have a legislature related problem do you talk to the representive or the government directly?
    AN OUTLAW MIGHT GIVE IN TO DESTINY BUT HIS LEGEND LIVES ON FOR ETERNITY!
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  5. #25
    Superkart Pilot MaXyM's Avatar
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    The day-night-cycle is in simracing since 2007 - rFactor. So nothing new actually.
    Yes, PC2 has spectacular, or better said: most realistic graphics. And in fact, together with VR support it's the only reason I play it. It's the same reason why I haven't stayed with rf2.
    But I actually confirmed, that gfx in PC2 has no issues being top notch.
    There are a lot of other features like real weather or livetrack3 which wasn't working at time Ian was mentioning them as ground breaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    Respect to customers means foremost listening to them and working on issues that are bothering/concerning them...both of these i can tell you are happening.
    I meant releasing fully working product (at least without critical issues) is the best way to express a respect to customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    Why is it so important to some of you to hear the exact words from the devs themselves?
    Usually it's not. It is starting to be important when company representative is trying to convince me that the product is working while obviously some of its parts doesn't due to serious issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    If you buy a car and it has a problem
    I believe we have agreement from the past that software cannot be treated the same was as other products Which I'm not OK with, but it's not me who came with it.
    HOwever, if I buy a new car, I expect it's free of any issues. Something might break by time (and this is what a warranty is for) but usually it's not like you go from dealer directly to service point because some part of car is originally broken.
    Going further, if a car under warranty cannot be fixed during a month, a car owner has rights to get money back. Now imagine what would happen to SMS if most customers ask for money back due to not resolved issues.
    Last edited by MaXyM; 11-05-2018 at 15:30.
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  6. #26
    Superkart Pilot Ofnir4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    Respect to customers means foremost listening to them and working on issues that are bothering/concerning them...both of these i can tell you are happening.
    Information asymmetry, there lies the problem for me. Until we/I can tell it for myself or a truly reliable, doubly confirmed source I trust tells me it's true, it's only conjecture, a rumor, a hoax.
    Not saying you are not trust-worthy, but as a mod you are not truly a third independent party.

    By the way, cars are physical objects and also have warranties. This particular product, a software, has no material form (a CD is not the material form if someone says so, if you break the CD you don't have code pouring out of it, it's just a form of presentation) and is not warranted.
    Last edited by Ofnir4; 11-05-2018 at 15:30.
    My body is 40% caustic humor, 40% sarcasm, 20% devoid of any emotion. My gamertag is the same as my username, I'm not that original.

    Delusional : holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument |Deluded : deceived by false beliefs.

  7. #27
    Superkart Pilot MaXyM's Avatar
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    Warranty is not related to physical state of objects. it's about issues being not a result of operational wear. For cars it can be bug in car's software which makes t closer to our case.

    But while I agree there are differences incl statement that "free of bugs software cannot exist" it should be matter of a few issues. Major ones. Not something which is impossible to overlook during QA or obvious because of its severity.
    Last edited by MaXyM; 11-05-2018 at 15:38.
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  8. #28
    Superkart Pilot Ofnir4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    Warranty is not related to physical state of objects. it's about issues being not a result of operational wear. For cars it can be bug in car's software which makes t closer to our case.
    I was implying more that I can get a car with no issue thank to a warranty or get it fixed on a individual basis but I can't do either with software because every single copy has the same issue (for a given platform). The point was : there is no way out but through, can't go around, it's foward into the devs or backward out of the consumers.
    If I'm ever going to enjoy PC2 the way Ian Bell envisioned it, I don't need a new copy of PC2, I need another platform altogether. That how major the issues are.
    My body is 40% caustic humor, 40% sarcasm, 20% devoid of any emotion. My gamertag is the same as my username, I'm not that original.

    Delusional : holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument |Deluded : deceived by false beliefs.

  9. #29
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    I think the problem that most people have isn't even with the game as much as it is with the way things are handled, the way some of the moderators act towards their customers, etc.

    Hate statements will always outweigh statements of respect. It's the unfortunate side of human nature. Companies should expect this and try to realize the hate that comes towards their players if a huge lag spike causes contact in a race that otherwise wouldn't have happened. It is a two way street.

    Epic games, has my highest level of respect. They have been open and honest since day one of the world's most popular game. They have been able to fix issues every week or two eradicating excuses that blame other companies for delays. They are empathetic towards their customers (who didn't even pay for the game) and keep them updated with changes, fixes, etc.

    When you launch a game that had major issues (PC1), and allow your customers to relive the same experience; you should expect to deal with harsh people. It doesn't make it right, but it should be expected.

    I believe the release of the demo caused major issues as well. At the time, in my opinion, the game was hardly playable. The demo just drew people in to game that simply wasn't ready to be re-advertised.

    This is an amazing game(despite countless issues)!
    It's just a pure shame that it has been out this long and it's nearly impossible to use many of its functions without encountering an issue. If you truly believe that no one should be able to vent their frustrations based on all of this, then...

    Epic games is a company that all others should strive to be like. They understand accountability and empathy. That's more than enough to keep their base filled with positivity that more than outweighs negativity.

    The problem isn't the game as much as the rude mods, lingering time between patches, and minimal communication.

    I put all of that aside because at the end of the day, when it works, it's the most amazing racing game I've played!
    Last edited by TheSimGirl; 11-05-2018 at 15:56.
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  10. #30
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    I bet that bad bank idea is growing in appeal..
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