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Thread: Dirt Rally 2.0

  1. #41
    GT5 Pilot rich1e I's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    When did I ever say any Dirt or Dirt Rally specifically was a proper simulation? Either you must've gotten a different person in mind or I made a typo. I think for 6 years now I've been nagging about Codemasters and their non-evolving Ego engine, and probably to the point of people getting sick of hearing it from me. lol

    If anything, a car is never unpredictable. Even on ice with the proper tyres you'll be surprised of how predictable a car can be, at least if I have to believe Nicolas Hamilton and Casey Ringley from when they went to the Mercedes ice track in real life. Also from my own experience a car hardly ever gets unpredictable even though it can be uncontrollable when you can't find grip at all. So even predictability and controlability are two different things.

    Anyway, as far as the video is concerned I watched it more than 4 times by now. He basically says they changed the handling in Dirt Rally and called in Handling 2.0 and in Dirt 4 they improved that. Yet they still need to dial in each and every car specifically with a real driver to get the handling right, which is partially right but not completely. They should be at least 80% there with the right data when implemented without typos. The last 20% is car setup and/or working around simulation limitations.
    That said, the fact they need to have basically a full dial-in session for each car with their real drivers makes me think their way of doing things is still simplistic. Which shows in any footage of the games... Dirt Rally, Dirt 4 and Dirt Rally 2.

    Also he nags about the games being called arcade. Well, most of that is because the games still don't support 900 degrees or more of steering rotation. You still need to fiddle with steering linearity to get it to somewhere a bit manageable, or simply dial back the rotation limit to 270 degrees.
    With that change you also get a second issue. Within this game engine the force feedback strength changes when limiting the rotation, so with less rotation it is as if all the effects are being compressed.
    Than there is the issue that the force feedback system isn't actually connected to the physics simulation, at least not as per Dirt Rally (the last Codemasters game I bought).

    I can give them constructive feedback (more in-depth than I do here) but I doubt they would listen. I'd tell them to at least throw the tyre model, controller system and FFB model out of the window. Probably the suspension simulation and differential simulation too while I'm at it. Although I doubt there is a human on this planet who would take such criticism even if it's presented in a constructive feedback type of way and say... "yeah sure, I worked hard on it but I'll trust you stranger from the interwebs... let me throw my hard work out the window".

    Personally I just hope Slightly Mad Studios will come with... "Project CARS RS" where RS stands for Rally Sport. So in full Project Community Assisted Racing Simulator Rally Sport. Kinda like Forza having the add-on names of Motorsport or Horizon.
    My apologies, man. I must've completely misread your words. I take everything back.
    I disagree with your statement that devs won't listen to constructive criticism, though. That sounds way too pessimistic and resigned. Coleman explicitly asked for constructive feedback.
    Also, he explains why people call DIRT 4 arcade compared to DR. People confuse stability and predictability with grip. There's not much grip on gravel. I really don't think it has anything to do with steering rotation. Btw, I've been using 540 and it feels fine to me.

  2. #42
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    My apologies, man. I must've completely misread your words. I take everything back.
    I disagree with your statement that devs won't listen to constructive criticism, though. That sounds way too pessimistic and resigned. Coleman explicitly asked for constructive feedback.
    Also, he explains why people call DIRT 4 arcade compared to DR. People confuse stability and predictability with grip. There's not much grip on gravel. I really don't think it has anything to do with steering rotation. Btw, I've been using 540 and it feels fine to me.
    Maybe I am pessimistic but it's not like I have come to this point without reason. As a prime example just look at how many people are shouting out for VR support for a few title releases since Dirt Rally now, this without results. Yes, Dirt Rally had Oculus VR support but I think that was more of a pilot balloon from the devs or maybe a single graphics dev in the team. Just like how a single dev is support VR support for SCS' ETS2 and ATS as mainly just a hobby.

    As for grip, stability and predictability. They are all three different things in my book.

    Grip is something that you can't define as a single figure, not even a single type of grip. Basically you have at least the initial biting stage into the surface material, than the grip once it has caught on, lastly you have rip in the sense of the rubber tearing itself loose from the surface material.
    For all three you have a different Mu-coefficient of friction, which behaves differently as steering input progresses. Not to mention it also changes with temperature changes, and those temperatures are also a different ball game that affect a tyre in different ways. You have tyre tread temperature which is fleeting as it gets directly cooled down by the driving wind, than you have the carcass temperature, sidewall temperature, tyre air temperature and not to forget the rim temperature. The rim after all gets warmed up by that hot plate of a brake disc in the middle of it.
    So with so much variables and changes of grip throughout a session it is quite hard to define grip as a single entity, but the more in-depth the simulation is on this front the more realistic the driving experience becomes. Being a WMD member I have seen how in-depth SMS has gone on this front in pC1 and even further in pC2, and quite frankly the Ego engine is quite simplistic by comparison.

    The stability of a car is more defined by the chassis and suspension. So think the center of gravity, mass of the car, mass of the components, mass of fluids, viscosity of said fluids, placement of all of the components. Than you have how well the suspension geometry is designed, how stiff is the chassis, stiffness of the suspension components.
    Also I almost forgot but aerodynamics also plays a huge factor in stability. Some cars can create a lot of turbulence at speed and tend to destabilize the car and feel shaky or floaty, especially with some added lift as bonus to raise the chassis and reduce downwards pressure on the tyres.
    All of this contributes to how stable the chassis is being suspended upon its tyres. Certainly it affects the "grip" of the tyres but a car with just grip isn't perse a stable car. I mean, you can have a floating car with tons of lift that has current F1 hypersofts under it but because it floats it can be a very on/off experience of grip on each corner of the car. Which doesn't make the car stable, reliable and safe to drive.

    Which makes us come to predictability. Which is basically convergence of both of these aspects. When a car has the grip to do what you want and responds to how you want it to respond, and has the stability to make you feel safe and give a reliable level of performance to the aspects of grip. Only when these two come together you get a predictable car, which does certainly not imply they have to be on rails.

    I'd like to add one other aspect that is typically sim related, that is simulation of input operation.
    What I mean with this is how does let's say the throttle input you make translate into what the physics engine will simulate. You might think simply without knowing how an engine works that when you step on the throttle that the engine will rise in revolutions per minute linearly to your pedal position, but this is absolutely wrong. The engine works under the principle of a vacuum and if the air supply is completely cut-off it will stall as it 'chokes' itself to death. So with carburators you'd also have a 'choke' which was a second butterfly valve in front of the throttle butterfly valve in the carburator to regulate airflow into the engine. Later with fuel injection you got an Idle Control Valve instead that would be computer controlling the engine's idle speed.
    Anyway, as the engine works under a vacuum it also means that if the air pressure is increased by opening up the throttle the engine won't respond much more once the air is near or at atmospheric pressure when going into the engine. So the demand for air isn't exactly linear and so isn't the engine's response to your throttle input, cause once it has enough air it won't ask for more by itself. This is why we have forced air induction in the form of superchargers or turbochargers to further improve the combustion of the air/fuel mixture.

    Anyway, long story short. This is just once example that is not simulated as it should be in the Ego engine. The same goes for how the brakes respond to your input on the brake pedal, how the clutch bites (or slips) or simply how the tyre model responds to your steering input. Which gets me back to the steering rotation in the sense that if you don't properly simulate the rotation of the real car and instead stick to a limited rotation system as they have now, you will get hypersensitive cars because you have less rotation to work with and thus you'll end up giving more input than the car longs for.
    Which again gets me back to the FFB having to be connected to the Physics and that it shouldn't scale with the steering rotation. Just like you don't don't want to compress the steering input to get it to be hypersensitive, you certainly don't want FFB that becomes stronger as it compresses and makes grander steering inputs because it's just doing its thing... thus throwing your already now hypersensitive on steering input car for a "spin" or wild ride. I mean, you have to realize that the rotation of the FFB motor is in most cases directly related to the steering input, since the sensor for that is mounted on the back of the motor. Except for Fanatec belt driven products that have it on the steering wheel's shaft instead.


    So yeah, to me the entire Codemasters EGO game engine is just a simplistic thing and doing things in a now decade old and by today's sim standards ancient way. I just can't come to terms with it as a simulation game in any way by today's standards, as self proclaimed arcade titles nowadays simulated just as much. Basically every game arcade, sim or whatever's in between does simulate something to some degree. How accurate that simulation is defines where a game places compared to its contemporary counterparts.
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  3. #43
    GT5 Pilot rich1e I's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    Maybe I am pessimistic but it's not like I have come to this point without reason. As a prime example just look at how many people are shouting out for VR support for a few title releases since Dirt Rally now, this without results. Yes, Dirt Rally had Oculus VR support but I think that was more of a pilot balloon from the devs or maybe a single graphics dev in the team. Just like how a single dev is support VR support for SCS' ETS2 and ATS as mainly just a hobby.

    (...)

    Anyway, long story short. This is just once example that is not simulated as it should be in the Ego engine. The same goes for how the brakes respond to your input on the brake pedal, how the clutch bites (or slips) or simply how the tyre model responds to your steering input. Which gets me back to the steering rotation in the sense that if you don't properly simulate the rotation of the real car and instead stick to a limited rotation system as they have now, you will get hypersensitive cars because you have less rotation to work with and thus you'll end up giving more input than the car longs for.
    Which again gets me back to the FFB having to be connected to the Physics and that it shouldn't scale with the steering rotation. Just like you don't don't want to compress the steering input to get it to be hypersensitive, you certainly don't want FFB that becomes stronger as it compresses and makes grander steering inputs because it's just doing its thing... thus throwing your already now hypersensitive on steering input car for a "spin" or wild ride. I mean, you have to realize that the rotation of the FFB motor is in most cases directly related to the steering input, since the sensor for that is mounted on the back of the motor. Except for Fanatec belt driven products that have it on the steering wheel's shaft instead.


    So yeah, to me the entire Codemasters EGO game engine is just a simplistic thing and doing things in a now decade old and by today's sim standards ancient way. I just can't come to terms with it as a simulation game in any way by today's standards, as self proclaimed arcade titles nowadays simulated just as much. Basically every game arcade, sim or whatever's in between does simulate something to some degree. How accurate that simulation is defines where a game places compared to its contemporary counterparts.
    Honestly, to me it seems that you're not prepared to open your mind to current (and also past) announcements and just want to stick to your opinion.
    I must admit, I haven't dived too deep into Codemasters technical stuff but from what I read recently it looks very much like they've further developed their engine. In fact we're talking about the EGO 4.0. You sound like there hasn't been any improvement at all.
    Also, you say all the complaints about no VR support had no results although Codemasters announced that if there's enough interest for DR 2.0 (and there's a strong demand currently) they'll bring VR in a future update. I also highly doubt that so called arcade rally games simulate as much as DR or DIRT 4. Paul Coleman clearly said they've made fundamental changes to the engine simulating stuff properly, which resulted in higher stability and better handling of the cars. Do you acknowledge that? It seems to me you've made up your mind. Period. No further information admitted.
    To be honest, I don't think you have strong points. The FFB might not be to your likes and maybe objectively weak and also the steering rotation might not be how you like it, but if you say playing dirt rally or DIRT 4 on a gamepad is just as good as with a wheel, then you're absolutely wrong. I'm using a wheel and the handling feels very natural to me. Cars aren't twitchy or oversensitive at all. That's actually the case if you use a gamepad.

    Codemasters' way to simulate things might not be as in-depth as SMS' but in my view there's no better rally game at the moment in terms of simulation. The handling feels very natural to me. I'm sure DR 2.0 will be a further improvement. Really hyped for this one.
    Last edited by rich1e I; 08-10-2018 at 12:45.

  4. #44
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    Honestly, to me it seems that you're not prepared to open your mind to current (and also past) announcements and just want to stick to your opinion.
    I must admit, I haven't dived too deep into Codemasters technical stuff but from what I read recently it looks very much like they've further developed their engine. In fact we're talking about the EGO 4.0. You sound like there hasn't been any improvement at all.
    Also, you say all the complaints about no VR support had no results although Codemasters announced that if there's enough interest for DR 2.0 (and there's a strong demand currently) they'll bring VR in a future update. I also highly doubt that so called arcade rally games simulate as much as DR or DIRT 4. Paul Coleman clearly said they've made fundamental changes to the engine simulating stuff properly, which resulted in higher stability and better handling of the cars. Do you acknowledge that? It seems to me you've made up your mind. Period. No further information admitted.
    To be honest, I don't think you have strong points. The FFB might not be to your likes and maybe objectively weak and also the steering rotation might not be how you like it, but if you say playing dirt rally or DIRT 4 on a gamepad is just as good as with a wheel, then you're absolutely wrong. I'm using a wheel and the handling feels very natural to me. Cars aren't twitchy or oversensitive at all. That's actually the case if you use a gamepad.

    Codemasters' way to simulate things might not be as in-depth as SMS' but in my view there's no better rally game at the moment in terms of simulation. The handling feels very natural to me. I'm sure DR 2.0 will be a further improvement. Really hyped for this one.
    What's wrong with sticking to one's opinion when it's based on past experience with the game studio? I have bought every game from Codemasters from ToCA 3 up until the end of 2015 in all genres... Grid, Dirt and F1, plus after that I always had a try when Steam had one of their games on one of their "Free to Play Weekend" periods. That's 16 games in total that I bought and I gradually became more and more disappointed about the big talk of improvement but leaving no physical proof once you got the game yourself.

    The thing that I find absolutely moronic in our discussion as of your post just now is that you expect that in a discussion either party has to get convinced of the other's opinion and adapt that opinion (to quote you "and just want to stick to your opinion"), or that both need to come to a compromise. Ever heard about agreeing to disagree? Right, that's also part of a discussion. You don't always have to agree with the other, even by the end of a discussion. What you do need to do in a discussion is respect the others opinion even when it doesn't align with your own. In a discussion every person taking part in it has the absolute right to stick to their own beliefs no matter what.

    Now back to the topic at hand. Codemasters have often said that would do something if there's enough interest but let's be honest. If they read any Reddit or other forum about the inclusion of VR in any of their games than they would already know that there is an interest. Which shows how disconnected this game studio is from their own fan base, and it's not just VR but in the past there have been other subjects as well. This game studio clearly refuses to listen to the masses and this is also the reason why I won't put any efforts into writing up messages to them when it comes to giving feedback. They always say "yeah, sure shout out to us and we'll listen" but by the end of the day they won't be at home to listen to your input.

    If you feel you can make a difference and they will listen to you and you have something they should improve or implement, by all means go ahead and give it a try. I have little faith in the listening capabilities of Codemasters and in my opinion they have always gone for the solution of making a new iteration of a franchise with as little effort (thus money) as possible in order to reap the most profits. In fact they even tried to cut down development costs at one point by removing cockpit view.

    As for your question. I do not acknowledge that. First and foremost I have not played Dirt 4, which means I can only go by the visual cues I have seen in many videos and live streams to judge any improvements from Dirt Rally to Dirt 4. Going by the visual cues alone I can see that with the steering input given the cars still react pretty much the same way, that is that they are quite unresponsive on initial input and a lot of turning of the wheel is needed for little result in direction change. The throttle is still linear in response. Brakes are also just as linear and static in their behavior without even temperature influencing them it seems. Also the cars chassis still seem to behave identical to how they were.
    So by visual cues alone and watching people drive Dirt 4 and seeing their pedals and wheels on cam together with the game's visuals I can say that so far I can't acknowledge the said improvements.

    About the FFB I never said it was weak. I said the strength scaled with the steering rotation. Also I never said the gamepad is as good as the wheel, in fact I said the Codemasters games are better played with a gamepad. You are twisting my words twice now in a single post and I would kindly ask you to stop doing so.
    If you feel that the handling is natural to you than go you. So you can get into a real rally car and drive the wheels off of it? I mean, if it all feels natural than you should be able to translate your virtual seat time into real world seat time easily.

    In any case, it is clear we are on opposite ends of the discussion here. So let's agree to disagree in this case. By the end of the day games are primarily a source of entertainment and so if you are entertained by their games than by all means buy and play them no matter what I or anyone else says. I really don't like their way of doing things and so I do not buy their games anymore since 2015.

    Let me finally wish you some good races and lots of entertainment playing the games you like.
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  5. #45
    Rookie MaseBase's Avatar
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    I hope the game isn't like DiRT 4. Toyota's inclusion along with the return of Mitsubishi would be nice.

  6. #46
    GT5 Pilot rich1e I's Avatar
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    @Christiaan van Beilen
    Wow. What glass globe told you that I expect you to adopt my opinion? I know we disagree and I'm not trying to convince you, just to make things clear. I didn't twist your words. 'Weak' is a very superficial word and I wrote 'might', and if you say a gamepad is even better than a wheel, then your statement is even more wrong.

    Btw. I don't know if you had the chance to drive a rally car. If so then I applaud to you but I can assure you if I had the opportunity I wouldn't be scared to give it a good try. That's actually not the reference needed to judge. The vast majority of people here hasn't driven a race car. Now you act like nobody's entitled to judge if a handling model feels natural or not. Would be nice if you applied the same logic to yourself. What you actually do is judging the game without having played it. ^^

    What I actually expect is that someone bases his opinion on a factual basis, that's all. They said they updated the engine and made changes and simulate things more properly compared to DR and you just ignore it and say 'Nope' without even having tried it. Btw, 'acknowledge' doesn't only mean 'confirm' but also 'recognise'.
    You say Codemasters don't listen to their community just after they announced DIRT Rally 2.0, a game highly requested by their community after they basically excluded any further DR title in their future plans before they released DIRT 4. No developer can afford not to listen to their community. So, your statements are just objectively wrong, and of course everyone can have a 'wrong opinion', but it's just that, wrong.

    You just don't like Codemasters and how you think they handle and develop things. I got that from the beginning. Happy gaming from me as well and good luck in your parallel universe


    Edit: @MaseBase
    If I remember correctly there's a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo in DIRT 4. But yeah, adding Toyota would be nice. Their Yaris is really smashing it.
    Last edited by rich1e I; 08-10-2018 at 23:30.

  7. #47
    GT3 Pilot Schnizz58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    Yep, and I'd add Pike's Peak to that list. Would be a real shame if they left it out.
    Pikes Peak would be great seeing as how that's likely the only rally course I'll ever drive myself. Even better would be the road before it was fully paved. I thought it had a lot more character when it was part dirt, part asphalt.
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  8. #48
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