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Thread: Project CARS Pro

  1. #31
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    Definitely agree. Like I said it's a relatively minor issue in my opinion and if the tire model was tweaked only to fix this and it made the overall driving worse then that would be very bad indeed.

    Physical modeling of any kind can be extremely tricky and sometimes one just has to take the good with the minor glitches. I'm very aware of this as I've had my fair share of hours in testing and "building" physical models of instruments and effects in the audio domain. Even a tiny tweak somewhere at the start of a chain can cascade into something really weird at the other end. I can only imagine how difficult it is to keep something like a complex tire model from "exploding"! This is why I have to utmos respect for AJ and his work (and Casey, Jussi and Doug for messing around with a HUGE set of parameters to get it all finetuned and working so nicely!).

    EDIT: to put things into perspective: Dave Kaemmer has now been working on his NTM for almost 9 years, that we know of.. and it still has some severe issues. It'll be interesting to drive his NTM v7 once it's released. Perhaps he finally "nailed it". :-)
    Last edited by bmanic; 01-12-2018 at 19:50.
    .. please SMS, make the AI faster in rain before shelving the game for good. Please! Love this game dearly!
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
    Lets not forget that he did also praise pCars 2 for various physics traits. It wasn't all bad.

    @CoproManiac: You make it sound like pCars is the only game that has fanboys that fail to see reality. Have you ever looked into Racedepartment forums? iRacing and especially AC has been put on pretty high pedestals there. Nicki Thiim was not all that liked a few years ago when he went on a rant about iRacing physics. There have been other real life drivers on the actual iRacing forums writing open letters about the state of the physics, especially in the old iRacing forum that funnily enough got deleted after a whole bunch of real life racing drivers posted their opinions about the physics and it all got a bit out of hand (this was during the initial releases of the NTM (new tire model) which had some severe issues.

    Unreasonable people can be found everywhere. Also unreasonable responses from developers can be found everywhere too (SMS has been pretty unreasonable several times in the past.. they are no saints nor an exception when it comes to these things). I think it's important to keep all of this in mind as it brings "balance to the force" to remember that all of this is just the same old, same old.

    Communication is key however and Christiaan has a good point about just that a few posts above this one.
    That's not what I am trying to claim, I'm aware all racing 'sims' have die-hard fans that cannot stand any criticism on their game. I think it's a shame that criticism, especially coming from real life drivers is (often) simply thrown out of the window and they then get ridiculed by the fanbase. If you want to have a proper game that's somewhat close to real life racing, critique should be listened to.
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  3. #33
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoproManiac View Post
    That's not what I am trying to claim, I'm aware all racing 'sims' have die-hard fans that cannot stand any criticism on their game. I think it's a shame that criticism, especially coming from real life drivers is (often) simply thrown out of the window and they then get ridiculed by the fanbase. If you want to have a proper game that's somewhat close to real life racing, critique should be listened to.
    I agree.
    .. please SMS, make the AI faster in rain before shelving the game for good. Please! Love this game dearly!
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
    We've already discussed this, and yes in certain circumstances it happens. I've already demonstrated this with my own video of my own car from the old thread.


    However, what I'm getting at is without specific feedback a programmer doesn't necessarily know what to adjust or where a problem my reside... Do they adjust the terrain material of the curb? Do they adjust the height of the saw-tooths on the curbing? Do they adjust the tact level of the tires? Do they adjust the rip level of the tires? Do they look at the suspension reaction of the tire? Do they adjust the grip level of the tire per the material? Is it a limitation of the sample rate of the physics where the models cannot resolve what's happening quick enough?

    The reason detailed feedback is needed is that it points the developers into the area which makes the most sense to understand what is going on or how to work a specific problem. Maybe you aren't a developer or maybe you don't work in IT. I can say from being involved in both for many years, without detailed information, making a change can make things worse. Without detailed information, developers will typically choose to do nothing as that at least rules out making it worse.
    Oh, I know all that pretty well. But you cannot expect from a user of your software to tell you which part of your code is the culprit for a problem that he is experiencing...He noticed a very obvious problem of the sim, the behavior over the kerbs, which to him was very unrealistic. It looked strange to him that a sim has such a very noticeable big problem and commented on it, obviously not in a kind way, but it's hard not to agree with his point. Now what did you expect him to do, to tell the devs that the problem is in the tire model, or in the diff, or in the modelling of weight movement etc? How could he possibly know? He just noticed something that was clearly wrong and (harshly) commented on it, that's all he did and that's all he could had done about it, it's up to the devs from now on to find what's causing it and fix it.

    Since you've worked as a programmer, you surely know well that when a user of your program reports a problem, very often you have absolutely no idea what causes it, then you start a research, you debug your app in various ways until you find the root cause and fix it. The big problem is when you do not have a way to reliably reproduce the bug, in order to investigate it and fix it, but in this case, fortunately it is extremely easy to very reliably reproduce this strange behavior. That's the only job of the user, to explain the problem and give a way to reproduce it if possible, from then on it's the developers' job.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoproManiac View Post
    That's not what I am trying to claim, I'm aware all racing 'sims' have die-hard fans that cannot stand any criticism on their game. I think it's a shame that criticism, especially coming from real life drivers is (often) simply thrown out of the window and they then get ridiculed by the fanbase. If you want to have a proper game that's somewhat close to real life racing, critique should be listened to.
    I guess his point was that for example when the same thing happened in the AC forum, from a real life driver criticizing certain aspects of the sim, he wasn't treated particularly well by the devs and some fellow players either

  6. #36
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    I guess his point was that for example when the same thing happened in the AC forum, from a real life driver criticizing certain aspects of the sim, he wasn't treated particularly well by the devs and some fellow players either
    Exactly this.

    And iRacing developers took it to whole new level a few years before that.
    .. please SMS, make the AI faster in rain before shelving the game for good. Please! Love this game dearly!
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  7. #37
    Moderator Mahjik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    Since you've worked as a programmer, you surely know well that when a user of your program reports a problem, very often you have absolutely no idea what causes it, then you start a research, you debug your app in various ways until you find the root cause and fix it. The big problem is when you do not have a way to reliably reproduce the bug, in order to investigate it and fix it, but in this case, fortunately it is extremely easy to very reliably reproduce this strange behavior. That's the only job of the user, to explain the problem and give a way to reproduce it if possible, from then on it's the developers' job.
    A bug is much easier... You have a desired stated and a current state. You can debug code to figure out why something isn't the desired state. However, what you are discussing is a subjective state. i.e. the "target state" isn't known from a coding standpoint. The code is behaving exactly as coded so the question is more outside the realm of what debugging code can usually provide. This is why it was mentioned changing things outside of the code (i.e. the texture properties).

    I will also say there are other times in programming where the problem is there, but its like looking for a needle in a haystack. A team I managed years back tried to find and fix a crashing problem with a server. We tracked crash dumps for 2 years without being able to find and fix it. After 2 years, we did find and fix it but because of another project. It turned out the server had to complete several million transactions to be able to produce the crash, but due to the patching cycles, the server rarely was up long enough to generate the crash. We had completed another project that increased the number or transactions to the server which was able to generate the scenario.

    Basically, software development and debugging are not exact sciences. For simple programs, yes you can run it through a debugger. For complex systems, debuggers are not options. I've even seen where adding debug code can move a crash footprint.

    For your first comment, it's the same as what bmanic and I were discussing above. Yes, the user won't be able to go into that level of detail of the tire model and that's not the suggestion. However, a user making their own statement something isn't right doesn't make it wrong nor does it make a code change easy or possible. That was my only point above.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
    A bug is much easier... You have a desired stated and a current state. You can debug code to figure out why something isn't the desired state. However, what you are discussing is a subjective state. i.e. the "target state" isn't known from a coding standpoint. The code is behaving exactly as coded so the question is more outside the realm of what debugging code can usually provide. This is why it was mentioned changing things outside of the code (i.e. the texture properties).

    I will also say there are other times in programming where the problem is there, but its like looking for a needle in a haystack. A team I managed years back tried to find and fix a crashing problem with a server. We tracked crash dumps for 2 years without being able to find and fix it. After 2 years, we did find and fix it but because of another project. It turned out the server had to complete several million transactions to be able to produce the crash, but due to the patching cycles, the server rarely was up long enough to generate the crash. We had completed another project that increased the number or transactions to the server which was able to generate the scenario.

    Basically, software development and debugging are not exact sciences. For simple programs, yes you can run it through a debugger. For complex systems, debuggers are not options. I've even seen where adding debug code can move a crash footprint.
    I know, I know, some problems are indeed difficult or very difficult and very complicated to find and fix. But still, this is the job of the developers, when there's an important problem to put the effort needed to research and fix it, unless they think it is not important or worth the effort of course. For some people it may not be an important problem, in my opinion it is a very important one, completely immersion breaking and a practical one, causing many car crashes/losing of conntrol when you try to do what real drivers you see doing in real races and have zero trouble doing in real life. No other sim has such a problem (OK, I have not tried iRacing). A professional real life driver was frustrated to see this unrealistic to him behavior while he was playing. IMO, this is good enough reason to put the effort and resources needed to fix it, especially since PCARS used to have a bad reputation on how good a "sim" it really is. Obviously just my opinion and obviously SMS may have a different one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
    For your first comment, it's the same as what bmanic and I were discussing above. Yes, the user won't be able to go into that level of detail of the tire model and that's not the suggestion. However, a user making their own statement something isn't right doesn't make it wrong nor does it make a code change easy or possible. That was my only point above.

    We were talking about Thim's comments and we suggested that some of his criticism was very useful and should be taken into account. Nobody suggested that this is enough by itself to fix the problem. Your exact response was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
    If it's useful, sure. The original discussion around Nicki's comments towards PC2 were that they were not useful. They were ramblings. I know you are weren't part of WMD2, but I can tell you the level of detail the pros working with SMS provided was far more detailed than anything Nicki said on his stream. I don't think that was Nicki's goal though so I'm not knocking him for it. I'm sure if he was working with a development team (or his real life race engineers) his feedback is much more specific.

    There exists in real life, criticism that isn't useful.
    A couple other guys and myself disagreed and made the point that his criticism was actually useful, to a certain extent at least.
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  9. #39
    WMD Member John Hargreaves's Avatar
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    Constructive feedback is always welcome, but I find Mahjik's use of the word 'ramblings' very accurate for most of Nicki's stream.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hargreaves View Post
    Constructive feedback is always welcome, but I find Mahjik's use of the word 'ramblings' very accurate for most of Nicki's stream.
    For most of Nicki's stream, I agree, too.
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