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Thread: News: Nvidia Physx goes open-source

  1. #11
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sankyo View Post
    Maybe, since a new GPU on an older CPU probably won't be utilized fully anyway because the CPU cannot feed it fully.

    Personally I think that the relative load of PhysZ won't change on an older CPU, hence if the PhysX calculations are causing a high CPU load then the rest of the physics model (i.e. STM) is completely stretching the CPU to its limits anyway and offloading PhysX to the GPU won't help much I think.
    Plus, sending PhysX to the GPU and using its results is not for free either as the CPU will need to feed the GPU. Probably less CPU load, but not zero I think.
    Sorry but GPU's are way way way more efficient at doing Physx than CPU's.

    Look I respect(or actually I don't) the choice that was made way back when to keep the red camp happy, but doing CPU Physx is far from efficient. It's a 'GPU-tech' that doesn't translate well to CPU. Just like graphics.

    And this step making it open source will solve the 'keeping camps happy'-thing finally, so this is about the best news ever. Followed by raytracing being mainstream in a couple of graphic-card generations.
    Last edited by MaximusN; 05-12-2018 at 11:20.
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  2. #12
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sankyo View Post
    Maybe, since a new GPU on an older CPU probably won't be utilized fully anyway because the CPU cannot feed it fully.

    Personally I think that the relative load of PhysZ won't change on an older CPU, hence if the PhysX calculations are causing a high CPU load then the rest of the physics model (i.e. STM) is completely stretching the CPU to its limits anyway and offloading PhysX to the GPU won't help much I think.
    Plus, sending PhysX to the GPU and using its results is not for free either as the CPU will need to feed the GPU. Probably less CPU load, but not zero I think.
    Depending on the amount of workload it might be insignificant, but I think still relevant.

    If you look at the process. A CPU is more common to get interrupted via IRQ, also the data is processed at system clock and not GPU internal clock, a GPU can access system memory via DMA and ommit the CPU largely. Plus GPU memory is faster and has a higher bandwidth once it is in there.

    All in all I do think it will be significantly faster because of all of that, and probably more that I am now forgetting. System optimization in the 90s hasn't made an effort for nothing to offload CPU workload and ommit interrupts (via DMA for example) in order to optimize serial processing. As well as improving data access and communication around the CPU.

    Each processor has its own benefits, but Physx was made for parallel computing since the days of Ageia who made the first Physx cards.
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  3. #13
    Moderator Sankyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    Sorry but GPU's are way way way more efficient at doing Physx than CPU's.
    I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that if the relative CPU load of PhysX is small, moving it to the GPU (and with that decreasing GPU graphics processing power as a possible unwanted side-effect) may not give that much benefit even though the idea sounds nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    Look I respect(or actually I don't) the choice that was made way back when to keep the red camp happy, but doing CPU Physx is far from efficient. It's a 'GPU-tech' that doesn't translate well to CPU. Just like graphics.
    Well there wasn't any choice here in the first place IMO, since you simply can't choose to use hardware-specific implementation of generic code. Choosing GPU PhysX and with that making pCARS an nVidia-only game is commercial suicide.

    What could have been a better option is to choose and open-source GPU physics engine (if that exists or existed at the time), or choose a less demanding CPU-based physics solver (if available, somehow I still have the feeling that PhysX is less efficient than, for example, Havoc, but I'm most likely wrong in thinking that).

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    And this step making it open source will solve the 'keeping camps happy'-thing finally, so this is about the best news ever. Followed by raytracing being mainstream in a couple of graphic-card generations.
    Agreed with the first, still not convinced that ray tracing will be more than a marketing gimmick in the next 5 years or so...
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  4. #14
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Ray tracing is indeed a gimmick. In ~4 years you might buy a RTX 4080ti and revisit some RTX titles of today, and maybe finding some new enjoyment in playing them with everything on.

    It does make the world a lot more realistic though. Just like having Physx calculate natural motion of wind, water, anything of cloth (clothes but also flags for example) and so on.

    We are far from having this in VR, let alone a properly sharp VR experience. That will take another decade or two at the current painfully slow development rate.
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  5. #15
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    Ray tracing is indeed a gimmick. In ~4 years you might buy a RTX 4080ti and revisit some RTX titles of today, and maybe finding some new enjoyment in playing them with everything on.
    It all depends on the question if the next cards from both(or by then 3) manufacturers(even the lower ends) have raytracing cores up to the task. Because if I understand it correctly it makes the workload of graphics artists a lot easier. Downside is they will still have to cater for non raytracing capable cards too, but my guess is they will put less effort in the old-school lighting.

    Speaking only for myself I'd much rather have 1080p with real(ish) lighting than 4K with fake. so I take the FPS hit like a champ. Just like any movie outscores a game in graphical quality even if it is at 720p and the game is at 4k. And it's almost all down to lighting...
    Last edited by MaximusN; 05-12-2018 at 15:24.
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  6. #16
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    I think you are a bit too optimistic about the speed at which you expect the transition to happen.

    I think ray tracing will be only common good by the time Windows is turned up to 11, I mean when we will have Windows 11.
    Even then we might not have a full transition yet. Just think back to Bilinear and Trilinear filtering and how long that legacy stuff was still in games while AA techniques became plenty.

    There will of course be a transition period that begins with the next gen of cards, if indeed AMD also comes with something also capable of ray tracing.
    This will only be the start in that gamers will more and more have ray tracing capable cards, and once steam shows that more than 1/2 of the user base has capable cards developers will add the gimmick. Only once the user base is beyond 3/4 it will become a more serious task to support it, but by that time the higher end of cards will have become far more capable too.
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