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Thread: Hydrogen is the future! Forget those hard to get electric elderly scooters for cars

  1. #11
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Fuel cell vs combustion engines the real world efficiency is about the same. If we can cheaply and efficiently produce transport and store hydrogen, we can keep our combustion engines and throw away all the emissions equipment.
    That means we can have V10/12 F1 cars again.
    That also means we can have dirty V8s and filthy turbo drift pigs. All fast and furious like.
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  2. #12
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Fuel cell vs combustion engines the real world efficiency is about the same. If we can cheaply and efficiently produce transport and store hydrogen, we can keep our combustion engines and throw away all the emissions equipment.
    That means we can have V10/12 F1 cars again.
    That also means we can have dirty V8s and filthy turbo drift pigs. All fast and furious like.
    There's a lot of work going on. So here's to hoping. Can't wait to get those screaming engines back and having F1 or Le Mans (in 2026... hopefully sooner) go hydrogen will give a massive boost in terms of technology development around this fuel.


    We already locally convert cars to hydrogen... hydrogen fuel cells that is, even a Citroen 2CV I kid you not. But also this Hesla.





    The ugly duckling (2CV):





    Even Scotty Kilmer already went on about hydrogen it seems... I'm starting to feel a push for hydrogen is on the way because the long waiting times for electric cars.

    Last edited by Christiaan van Beilen; 21-12-2018 at 01:33.
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    GT5 Pilot Zaskarspants's Avatar
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    The trouble with hydrogen as an energy carrier is that it is very inefficient. I cannot recall the exact figures but you generally make hydrogen using electricity, move it, then turn it back into electricity in a fuel cell or burn it in an Otto engine. This is much less efficient than using the electricity directly in the car. Hydrogen also lacks a distribution system. It also leaks out of nearly everything, tiny molecules.
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  4. #14
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaskarspants View Post
    The trouble with hydrogen as an energy carrier is that it is very inefficient. I cannot recall the exact figures but you generally make hydrogen using electricity, move it, then turn it back into electricity in a fuel cell or burn it in an Otto engine. This is much less efficient than using the electricity directly in the car. Hydrogen also lacks a distribution system. It also leaks out of nearly everything, tiny molecules.
    Again there isn't enough lithium to create enough batteries to store the energie in the billions of cars this planet counts.
    Also charging a battery is much slower than refueling a fuel cell. So while that increases the batteries efficiency (slow charging) it is also its downside in terms of dial usage. Also fast charging batteries will more quickly degrade their capability for holding a charge.

    Than there is the issue with the electric car that the firefighters can't get to you without risking electrocution. So if it catches fire in an accident or you get in the water it is not easy to get out or get you out.

    So even if it is technically less efficient I think it is practically still the more sensible option.

    Especially since the Dutch government is thinking of banning the sale of diesel and petrol cars, or so I just read today. Also Germany is thinking about banning petrol cars in big city environment zones.

    So if I can't run petrol anymore or diesel than I will go for hydrogen if I had the choice today.
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  5. #15
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    Lithium batteries may be replaced in the future with fluoride batteries or even graphene batteries.
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  6. #16
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS7 View Post
    Lithium batteries may be replaced in the future with fluoride batteries or even graphene batteries.
    Interesting development but I reckon the charge times are the same?

    Also again to get back on an earlier comment of mine. I don't see electric nor hydrogen fuel cell cars towing a trailer/caravan behind it through the alps.

    Another option in my opinion, and I think this would be a great idea, would be steam powered and electrically heated cars that use a hydrogen fuel cell to generate said electricity and the "waste water" to refill the boiler.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    Interesting development but I reckon the charge times are the same?
    Charge times are faster for both fluoride & graphene, and both last longer than lithium batteries.

    Personally I think when it comes to clean renewable energy one has to keep an open mind and be open to different options (maybe even combine different types of energy source depending on the situation), as opposed to look at a single solution.
    I've always wondered whether it would be possible for cars to combine a main source of energy like hydrogen or salt water with power that comes from the heat of the brakes & wind power from the air the car runs through, maybe also some sort of technology to capture kinetic energy from whenever the car is accelerating, braking or turning.
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  8. #18
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS7 View Post
    Charge times are faster for both fluoride & graphene, and both last longer than lithium batteries.

    Personally I think when it comes to clean renewable energy one has to keep an open mind and be open to different options (maybe even combine different types of energy source depending on the situation), as opposed to look at a single solution.
    I've always wondered whether it would be possible for cars to combine a main source of energy like hydrogen or salt water with power that comes from the heat of the brakes & wind power from the air the car runs through, maybe also some sort of technology to capture kinetic energy from whenever the car is accelerating, braking or turning.
    Oh yeah, I am not saying we need to stop with having multiple technologies working with each other (although the title could suggest that). A hydro-electric hybrid will be the obvious way forward, although I do think we need a combustion engine or steam engine as the main driver. Water is plenty and if we can utilize water efficiently and only need a smaller battery than hopefully we will use less of the restricted resources.

    Personally I am also not against using a thorium reactor to actually deliver the power needed to make the hydrogen gas. Which is a much safer option than uranium for instance. In fact if you could safely make teeny weeny thorium reactor safely to put in every car and use that to store electricity in a battery as well as make hydrogen in the car itself, than this would be ideal as you could just put some tap water in the gas tank and off you go (or at least tank some demineralized water). In which case energy recovery could still be used but I think it would just add weight to the vehicle. Than again... maybe I am just having crazy thoughts here.


    Edit:
    Let me include this and yes... us Dutch are again at the forefront of also thorium as well as hydrogen, or so it seems.

    Last edited by Christiaan van Beilen; 21-12-2018 at 23:46.
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  9. #19
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Hydrogen can power heavy and long haul trucks. Whether it be through combustion or fuel cell. Its essentially a fuel like petrol or diesel or gas.
    Steam + hydrogen can be an issue. Steam power is used in cargo ships. Its no good for road use because its basically a high pressure bomb and it won't be properly maintained by a truck operator. Its not safe for road use.
    Steam energy recovery systems are used in marine applications for waste heat and energy recovery to improve the efficiency of the system.
    Its also no good combining it in a vehicle for energy recovery because its very heavy and the energy recovery is offset by the mass and the system becomes counterproductive.
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  10. #20
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    I am wondering what impact having millions of hydrogen cars in a city will have on humidity levels...

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