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Thread: Hydrogen is the future! Forget those hard to get electric elderly scooters for cars

  1. #21
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    I am wondering what impact having millions of hydrogen cars in a city will have on humidity levels...
    Good point! Although the humidity isn't that much of an issue, especially when you consider that we had a drought this year. In fact the Netherlands was said to have ended its drought period just this week! In December for crying out loud!

    So I think having an increase of humidity will make droughts less of an issue in a period where climate expectations are that droughts will be a returning thing.
    The downside is that the heat and humidity is going to make summers less bearable, especially for us who already live in a moist area below sea level.

    Than again we do have airconditioning and dehumidifiers for a reason, and it'll be good for the economy in that side of the market. So it's not like it is the end of the world.


    Also you could use a tank to actually catch the water first so that it actually can cool down, and maybe have a automatic valve that will open the tank once the car has been stationary for an X amount of minutes and the water temperature is at a ambient temperature level. This way it won't immediately turn into water vapor and get into the air to increase humidity.
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  2. #22
    GT5 Pilot Zaskarspants's Avatar
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    Some stuff on lithium.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ity_of_lithium

    Only 4kg in a typical leaf battery. Talk of shortages appear highly speculative with other materials such as the rare earth metals often used in motor magnets likely to be an issue sooner.

    I think the future is electric for cars be it lithium or other battery tech. Having said that there will be a demand for real engines for many years with them fading from the road as petrol gets more expensive but continuing on race tracks and in competition because that is what many people want.

    I also think it likely that the performance of electric cars will exceed internal combustion in most racing applications in about ten years but I would also expect traditional cars with ic engines to continue to be used for many many years. Even after the oil is gone people will still be racing V12 monsters and turbo 2 litre screamers, perhaps on synthetic petrol or rare supplies that are kept going for vintage racing. The steam engine never died out, it just got more niche and I think the much loved Otto engine is heading that way, slowly.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    Good point! Although the humidity isn't that much of an issue, especially when you consider that we had a drought this year. In fact the Netherlands was said to have ended its drought period just this week! In December for crying out loud!

    So I think having an increase of humidity will make droughts less of an issue in a period where climate expectations are that droughts will be a returning thing.
    The downside is that the heat and humidity is going to make summers less bearable, especially for us who already live in a moist area below sea level.

    Than again we do have airconditioning and dehumidifiers for a reason, and it'll be good for the economy in that side of the market. So it's not like it is the end of the world.


    Also you could use a tank to actually catch the water first so that it actually can cool down, and maybe have a automatic valve that will open the tank once the car has been stationary for an X amount of minutes and the water temperature is at a ambient temperature level. This way it won't immediately turn into water vapor and get into the air to increase humidity.
    This is hard to believe, but in Greece since the end of the summer we've been having 70%-90% humidity almost 24/7 for months now, day after day, month after month, it's been like that in the last few years. And in the summers it's not low humidity either, especially at nights. I can only imagine how it will be having every night with 30C and say 80% humidity for a few months in a row...

    That's what I thought, too, of maybe having a tank where water should go, instead of evaporating from the "exhaust". But I have no idea about the weight of gases produced by such cars and if that option is feasible at all.

  4. #24
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaskarspants View Post
    Some stuff on lithium.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ity_of_lithium

    Only 4kg in a typical leaf battery. Talk of shortages appear highly speculative with other materials such as the rare earth metals often used in motor magnets likely to be an issue sooner.

    I think the future is electric for cars be it lithium or other battery tech. Having said that there will be a demand for real engines for many years with them fading from the road as petrol gets more expensive but continuing on race tracks and in competition because that is what many people want.

    I also think it likely that the performance of electric cars will exceed internal combustion in most racing applications in about ten years but I would also expect traditional cars with ic engines to continue to be used for many many years. Even after the oil is gone people will still be racing V12 monsters and turbo 2 litre screamers, perhaps on synthetic petrol or rare supplies that are kept going for vintage racing. The steam engine never died out, it just got more niche and I think the much loved Otto engine is heading that way, slowly.
    Oil for one will never stop being used because we also use it to lube a lot of mechanical parts, make plastics and a lot more other things as well. Including petroleum jelly based ointments for instance. So I can't imagine a full halt on oil exploitation. For sure once it becomes a rare material that is sold only for niche markets it'll be crazy expensive to run a petrol or diesel car as a daily.

    About the resources. You could be right about rare metals. Even copper isn't an endless resource available for the huge lengths needed for motor windings.


    One way or another we have to have some solution or else we'd risk hurting the economy badly, as people can't move around as well anymore. They'd demand to work locally and they'd be bound to their local community like back in olden days of horse and carriage.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    This is hard to believe, but in Greece since the end of the summer we've been having 70%-90% humidity almost 24/7 for months now, day after day, month after month, it's been like that in the last few years. And in the summers it's not low humidity either, especially at nights. I can only imagine how it will be having every night with 30C and say 80% humidity for a few months in a row...

    That's what I thought, too, of maybe having a tank where water should go, instead of evaporating from the "exhaust". But I have no idea about the weight of gases produced by such cars and if that option is feasible at all.
    Yeah, it can be pretty bad there too I imagine. Another way would be to store the water and use electricity stored in the vehicle to turn that water back into H2 and O (hydrogen and oxygen) in order to reuse it again. This would still mean you'd have to recharge the vehicle or risk the loss of of your reusable fuel (water) as it would have to be dumped as the tank gets full. I am starting to wonder if it would be easier to maybe heat the water first into a vapor in order to push the vapor under pressure through electrostatic meshes of varying metals as kathode and anode, where my thinking is that as long as there is enough steam there should be a connection between the plates... and with the water already being vaporized it hopefully would be easier to separate the molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. Any water condensation would drip back down into the containment tank to be heated again for a new round. The biggest problem still being the heating element that would draw a lot of power, unless induction would use a lot less of it but again... I am no scientist.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    Yeah, it can be pretty bad there too I imagine. Another way would be to store the water and use electricity stored in the vehicle to turn that water back into H2 and O (hydrogen and oxygen) in order to reuse it again. This would still mean you'd have to recharge the vehicle or risk the loss of of your reusable fuel (water) as it would have to be dumped as the tank gets full. I am starting to wonder if it would be easier to maybe heat the water first into a vapor in order to push the vapor under pressure through electrostatic meshes of varying metals as kathode and anode, where my thinking is that as long as there is enough steam there should be a connection between the plates... and with the water already being vaporized it hopefully would be easier to separate the molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. Any water condensation would drip back down into the containment tank to be heated again for a new round. The biggest problem still being the heating element that would draw a lot of power, unless induction would use a lot less of it but again... I am no scientist.
    Maybe take the water coming from the hydrogen burn, mix it with salt and use that mix to generate energy?

    BTW everytime I hear about scarcity of certain metals I wonder when asteroid mining will be a common thing.

  6. #26
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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  7. #27
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS7 View Post
    Maybe take the water coming from the hydrogen burn, mix it with salt and use that mix to generate energy?
    Doesn't quite work like that. Each conversion process requires energy input. So the energy you can extract, and the efficiency at which you can extract it, makes the process unprofitable.
    Hydrogen extraction from water, for example, requires a huge amount of energy. With the use of catalysts, its better, but we're not quite there yet.
    Same for carbon capture: CO2 is a stable end product which you need to make unstable to bond with other materials and "capture" the carbon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Doesn't quite work like that. Each conversion process requires energy input. So the energy you can extract, and the efficiency at which you can extract it, makes the process unprofitable.
    Hydrogen extraction from water, for example, requires a huge amount of energy. With the use of catalysts, its better, but we're not quite there yet.
    I wasn't talking about extracting hydrogen from water, I was talking about mixing the water byproduct with salt and using that salt water mix to make energy, like in the Quantino.
    Not sure how practical it would be to have a primary hydrogen engine + a secondary salt water engine, but if it's possible it would be an interesting idea.

  9. #29
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS7 View Post
    ...
    I haven't heard of this quantino business but extracting salt from water is a hugely energy intensive process. By the time you've pumped a lot of energy into it, what energy is left to gain from it? I don't know. I haven't done the experiments.
    Believe me there are really intelligent people working on it. Sure there are idiots among them and bean counters and lawyers and marketers and politicians hindering the process. Despite the obstacles, the future of auto and energy corporations rests on finding viable renewable resources. They'll get there or be left behind by those who found a way.
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  10. #30
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    I haven't heard of this quantino business but extracting salt from water is a hugely energy intensive process. By the time you've pumped a lot of energy into it, what energy is left to gain from it? I don't know. I haven't done the experiments.
    Believe me there are really intelligent people working on it. Sure there are idiots among them and bean counters and lawyers and marketers and politicians hindering the process. Despite the obstacles, the future of auto and energy corporations rests on finding viable renewable resources. They'll get there or be left behind by those who found a way.
    Isn't salt being retrieved from drying salt beds? Drying the water might seem energy intensive but the energie is being transmitted by the sun anyway.

    This is in India but it also happens in the same way in France and elsewhere in the world...

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