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Thread: Is there an inherent issue with the physics/tire model?

  1. #31
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Oh, you think so? That's cute. We'll discuss that again when you get your wheel

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Mcboo View Post
    ...

    Also, I can only use the handbrake in RX cars... what gives?
    You can use the handbrake in cars with handbrake. Drift rally and road cars. Not race cars that don't have handbrake irl.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Oh, you think so? That's cute. We'll discuss that again when you get your wheel



    You can use the handbrake in cars with handbrake. Drift rally and road cars. Not race cars that don't have handbrake irl.
    Haha, yeah! I'm hesitatnt for the moment because it's going to cost a lot and I don't have the time to hook it properly on a table and all that.

    Well, what about road cars? Shouldn't they have a handbrake? None of them do.

    Also, why do cars visually show negative camber settings only in the rear wheels and not the front, when I switch to the outside view or watch replays? E.g. both front and rear suspension have camber at -3.0, so I should also see the front tires tilted out at an angle, right?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
    If you are used to Forza, going to Pcars2 is going to be a huge change. Forza is an over grippy unrealistic arcade game where you can get away with ALOT more. Its not realistic and nowhere near what real life like cars do. Now I am not saying you are an idiot, or cannot drive. However, making the adaptation from Forza to Pcars2 is a major learning curve. You basically have to learn all over again. Where in Forza you can slam on the brakes way later and turn way harder without losing control is fun, that is not how it is in real life. This is where people have trouble when they make the switch and give up on the game quickly.
    I tried a comparison last night, driving the retail Ford GT around the Daytona Road Course in both FM7 and PC2, using a controller for both. My wheel (actually the same wheel base and pedals as you have, though I only noticed that after I'd chosen them based on information elsewhere) should arrive tomorrow. The reason I drove that particular car around that particular track is because there was a monthly rivals event in FM7 back in Feb 2018 that gave me leaderboard time comparisons for the car in stock form. There aren't many other places in FM7 where you do TTs with cars in stock form.

    Comparing the leaderboard, the fastest FM7 time was 1:42.1, and I did 1:45.4, which had me 582nd out of ~24k participants. However, the track limits have been changed since then, making the track a little slower, and for this comparison I wanted to have all assists off, which also made me a little slower. So last night I did 1:47.3, with the 1.9 seconds slower being a mix of the new track limits, assists off, and me not spending as much time on it as I did for that monthly rivals. I'd estimate the fastest time with the new limits would be around 1:43.

    The PC2 leaderboard is here:
    http://cars2-stats-steam.wmdportal.c...icle=366881611

    So the fastest there is 1:47.6, slowest 1:57.9. The cars in the two games aren't identical spec, they differ in both power and weight, so it's difficult to separate that from any other physics differences when comparing the fastest times.

    With the controller, I did 1:54 in PC2 last night, so I was 7 secs slower than the PC2 best vs about 4 secs slower than the FM7 best. I think I'll be able to improve on that time without too much difficulty, I think some more adjustment of the settings will help quite a bit more, and my driving will improve with more adaptation.

    Right, that's all just background, and is sort of not really relevant, but as I have all that data, I thought I'd share it for context.

    So for subjective assessment of differences between the two games, first of all, clearly I am finding PC2 "harder" right now, as I'm farther away from world best times. And the small number of times on the PC2 leaderboard suggests the world best time could probably be improved upon, so I'm probably even farther away from an equivalent standard. However, I don't think "harder", in itself, necessarily means it's more realistic.

    But the bit of what you said that I really can't agree with is FM7 being an overly grippy arcade game. The sources of difficulty in the two games are different, which is one reason why I wasn't able to immediately drive as well in PC2. In Forza, the car is actually less grippy in terms of basic mechanical grip. Where this showed the most was through the bus stop, where in FM7 it's extremely hard to make the changes of direction without inducing a little sliding. In PC2, by contrast, the car feels glued to the track through that section, there is really nothing at all you can do to disrupt the car through there, with steering alone.

    The difficulty in PC2 feels to me to come much more from control of throttle and brake. FM7 combined with the Elite controller makes braking a bit of a cheat, in that you can set it up so that the trigger lock results in you braking to the limit of traction, 100% reproducibly every time. This means you can have ABS off, but treat braking as a binary action, and there's no doubt that braking in PC2 is much harder by comparison, but there is the caveat that maybe the settings could be adjusted to achieve the same effect as in FM7.

    For throttle control, both games let you break traction with the throttle, and seemed fairly similar in terms of the rpm and gear combinations where it happens, though I'd have to go back to FM7 to check the exact points where it happens. In PC2 I used a quick workaround of shifting to 4th at 5000rpm in 3rd to avoid breaking traction, but I'm sure I could find a better solution with more time spent on it. However, what I found quite different was how the car behaves when you break traction by applying too much power. FM7 feels more progressive and intuitive and hence easier to correct. When I look at this video, he has a bit of a slide at 0:26, and to me, the behaviour looks closer to what I see in FM7 than PC2:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnVmeGg3Hlc

    So my feeling so far, when using a controller, is that PC2 is more realistic than FM7 for the basic level of grip, the car looks fairly glued to the track in the video above, more like PC2 than FM7. I've always felt FM7 has a lot of fake difficulty in how slidey many of the cars are, particularly untuned. But I feel FM7 is more realistic than PC2 for the progressiveness of the behaviour when losing grip, again from comparing to what happens when grip is lost in the above video with the actual car in real life.

    I'm now keenly awaiting the arrival of my wheel to see how the FFB and pedals help with it all. I'm expecting to be slower with the wheel in FM7, but faster with it in PC2, as that seems to be the general trend.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Mcboo View Post
    Right, so I'm on OG Xbox One, controller.

    All assists off and I've experimented with every bunch of controller settings available on forums, including reddit and GTplanet.

    Is the tire model in the game faulty? Once you lose control, the car slides off the track like a truck - there's just no way of recovering it, it's as if there are large magnets on either side of the track that just pull be off the track no matter how hard I counter steer. With that said, I'm having issues with the more powerful hypercars.

    Cars like the LaF or P1 for instance have a lot of technology in them which makes driving easier.

    As an example, if I'm driving the Ferrari 330p or Jag F-type, I can control powerslides like a pro no matter what track or time of day. In all cases, I'm using the default tuning setups.

    I've tried upping/reducing steering and throttle/braking sensitivity - i've tried increasing/decreasing speed sensitive steering and controller damping. I even changed the deadzones around a bit.

    I'm finding it very frustrating that older, lower HP cars drive so well, while newer, more powerful hypercars which are supposed to handle exceptionally well, keep pulling to one side where I just can't countersteer to save the car!
    I agree 100% with you.

  5. #35
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breeminator View Post
    .... But I feel FM7 is more realistic than PC2 for the progressiveness of the behaviour when losing grip, again from comparing to what happens when grip is lost in the above video with the actual car in real life.
    That's a blanket statement that doesn't cover all the bases, because PC2 has a near-infinite combination or factors that affect the behaviour you're talking about and FM has... Like... 3.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Mcboo View Post
    Haha, yeah! I'm hesitatnt for the moment because it's going to cost a lot and I don't have the time to hook it properly on a table and all that.
    My wheel has finally arrived, and I have to say, if you want to play PC2 IMO a wheel is the only way. I know some people have times high up on leaderboards with controller or keyboard, but after a couple of hours of messing about with settings I took THREE SECONDS off my time with the Ford GT around Daytona, getting me to 4 seconds off the number 1 time, about the same as the gap in FM7 with the controller. The difference in ability to make the car go exactly where you want it to is huge. I still found it hard to recover if the car got too much out of control, but with the smoother steering inputs the car is massively less likely to get out of control in the first place.

    I got the Fanatec table clamp so I can just clamp it onto the desk. It's a fair bit of stuff to store when not in use, I'll admit that. Also, I need some way to fix my chair and pedals while playing, so I might have to get a Playseat and find some way of raising the seat to the right height.

    FM7 is terrible with a wheel, I can't do any sort of decent lap at all. Braking is a huge problem due to how ABS cripples the braking in that game. But it's not just that, you can't steer the car where you want in the same way as you can in PC2 because the FFB feels more artificial. PC2 still doesn't feel like a real car to me, too much in the way of artificial jolts coming through the wheel even though I've tried to turn them all off. But FM7 has more of those artificial jolts and they actually disrupt your steering. It kind of feels like the track has been bombed and has craters everywhere, that's the sort of size of hole in the ground you'd have to have in real life to get those jolts through the wheel.
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  7. #37
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    That's awesome! I love reading about people's experience going from controller to a wheel. It's been a looooong time since I first used a FFB wheel, but I still remember the experience.

    I'll probably get jumped for suggesting it in here, but Assetto Corsa is another fun sim. It's not nearly as developed as pCARS 2 on consoles (no career, multiplayer is dead), but I really like the FFB in that game. When I'm not actually racing, I like to relax and drive around in a virtual road car. I have two go-too setups for this: pCARS 2 California Hwy or Azure Coast, and Assetto Corsa Black County, Highlands, or Nordschleife Tourist. The Nords Tourist layout in AC has consumed hours upon hours of my life. I must have driven 2,500 laps by now. The game is like $30 now, and you can probably buy it used for less. There is no key required for online play, so you can pick up a used copy really cheap and put it in your sim racing library.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by breeminator View Post
    My wheel has finally arrived, and I have to say, if you want to play PC2 IMO a wheel is the only way. I know some people have times high up on leaderboards with controller or keyboard, but after a couple of hours of messing about with settings I took THREE SECONDS off my time with the Ford GT around Daytona, getting me to 4 seconds off the number 1 time, about the same as the gap in FM7 with the controller. The difference in ability to make the car go exactly where you want it to is huge. I still found it hard to recover if the car got too much out of control, but with the smoother steering inputs the car is massively less likely to get out of control in the first place.

    I got the Fanatec table clamp so I can just clamp it onto the desk. It's a fair bit of stuff to store when not in use, I'll admit that. Also, I need some way to fix my chair and pedals while playing, so I might have to get a Playseat and find some way of raising the seat to the right height.

    FM7 is terrible with a wheel, I can't do any sort of decent lap at all. Braking is a huge problem due to how ABS cripples the braking in that game. But it's not just that, you can't steer the car where you want in the same way as you can in PC2 because the FFB feels more artificial. PC2 still doesn't feel like a real car to me, too much in the way of artificial jolts coming through the wheel even though I've tried to turn them all off. But FM7 has more of those artificial jolts and they actually disrupt your steering. It kind of feels like the track has been bombed and has craters everywhere, that's the sort of size of hole in the ground you'd have to have in real life to get those jolts through the wheel.
    Well, comparing both games on controller at least, I'd have to give it to PCARS2 - simply because it offers you a LOT more control over how you want the car to behave. You can pretty much overdrive the car as much as you want, push it as hard as you want.

    With Forza, the control feels like its on rails - there's a fair amount of "hand holding" / third wheel type of thing going on, which I'm told is still the case with the wheel as well despite their so-called efforts to make the wheel more engaging. I understand that they want the game to be more approachable - but i'm giving PCARS2 for the win here, in terms of sheer - well, everything!

    It just does everything better than Forza - it has everything I've always wanted in a Forza game but just couldn't have it: REAL car sound, highly nuanced physics model, photorealistic visuals, etc.

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