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Thread: Christiaan's Pure FFB (Custom pCARS2 FFB File)

  1. #101
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Okay, after a couple of failed ideas I am thinking the issue is in the construction of the rack itself.

    Or more exactly it is a problem with the linkage construction.

    It's another problem of Newton's third law basically. We have forces clamping on center on the linkage from left and right. Yet we don't have an opposing force acting against it from the rack itself.

    Currently I am quite puzzled on how to go about constructing something like that from within the FFB file.
    Just using opposing forces wil just cause a cancelation of force, which is not what I want.

    Although, I wonder if the moment on the rack isn't coming from the rear tyres that oppose the front tyres times the length of the wheel base.
    The problem is not adding those rear tyres but how can I draw that wheel base data from the game. Hrm...
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.03): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
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  2. #102
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Okay, someone help me out here.

    I need to determine how much force is being put into the rack by the player as he turns the wheel.

    The only variables available are... steering_pos and steering_vel. So position and velocity.


    Since Force = Mass x Acceleration, I can assume the weight of both arm in kilograms being around 7 kg. Someone you could try to derive the acceleration from velocity, but I don't think this will fly.


    I figured out the issue as to why we have oscillation issues. Basically the steering wheel acts like a virtual linear actuator in between the two tyres and their forces pushing trying to act upon each other. Or in other words your steering wheel IS the rack, which is completely wrong.


    In theory the two force from left and right acting through the rod we call a rack should cancel each other out. It is only when the driver exerts a rotational force on the steering wheel that it equally rotates a pinion, that force is thus adding to a direction of force on the rack and thus it moves the rack with the resistive force being the opposing force.



    So the problem is deriving the Steering_Force from Steering_Position and Steering_Velocity as the only known player input variables. How can I come to a steering force from that? Anyone?
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.03): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)

  3. #103
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    I have no idea what you are even getting at.

    Btw. I don't suffer from any oscillations most of the time. Next time I notice some oscillation I'll check if it's a specific car/track.

    I do believe AJ when he says the tire model can "explode" at low speeds.. that's one of the main traits of most of these tire models.
    The following user likes this Post: Olijke Poffer


  4. #104
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
    I have no idea what you are even getting at.

    Btw. I don't suffer from any oscillations most of the time. Next time I notice some oscillation I'll check if it's a specific car/track.

    I do believe AJ when he says the tire model can "explode" at low speeds.. that's one of the main traits of most of these tire models.
    It is easy my dear Watson.

    When your car is standing still the forces of the left and right tyre act upon each other via the rack.
    There is a wheel with teeth called a pinion riding on top of that rack. This is connected by a rod to the steering wheel inside of the car. The movement of the steering wheel and pinion has thus a ratio of 1:1 and has no play.

    Now with no force acting upon the steering wheel and thus pinion, the pinion will just sit still on the rack. The rack on which the force of the left tyre and right tyre are in equilibrium with one another. They are at rest.

    Now to feel the force acting upon the tyres through the steering wheel you first have to put force in via the wheel. Newton's third of motion... When you put force in you get an equal and opposing reaction.

    Now since we have two forces on the rack in equilibrium, the only way to move the rack (thus the tyres) is by overcoming either force by adding your manual force through the steering wheel in one direction, thus you will overcoming the force acting against you in opposing direction.

    The problem is knowing how much manual force the player is virtually putting into the steering wheel as he turns his wheel.
    In the end we only have a position sensor as wheel output after all, and we have the derived velocity thanks to AJ as well.
    Velocity is basically acceleration squared. The crapoy thing is we have a power function in the FFB file but no root.

    Else it would be an easy bit of math with F = m * a.



    In essence what I am trying to do here is add a 3rd wheel into the equation... the pinion that is supposed to go on the rack. Because currently the rack movement is directly controlling the direction of FFB, but the forces that act on the rack don't directly act on the pinion.

    I am sorry if it seems mumbo jumbo. Even I got a headache having to wrap my head around Einstein his theory of relativity and so on. lol
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.03): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
    The following user likes this Post: bmanic


  5. #105
    GT4 Pilot Olijke Poffer's Avatar
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    I would love to give input but I already get lost whit the sum 1+1.. iI have dyscalculia.. (that is no lie)
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  6. #106
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olijke Poffer View Post
    I would love to give input but I already get lost whit the sum 1+1.. iI have dyscalculia.. (that is no lie)
    Well, as long as you understand what I am trying to do..

    What I am trying to do is not translate the linear movement of the steering rack, so the bar which the tie-rods attach to, into a FFB output on a linear scale like now. Instead what I want is simulate a third wheel that rides on the rack, the pinion, so that the forces acting on the rack don't act directly on the steering wheel. So the executive force isn't the rack force itself but rather the pinion that rides on top of the rack.

    Why is it important to split these two? Try to put your hands together and push as hard as you can against each other, eventually you will also notice that under extreme force your hands will start to shake or oscillate.
    That is the issue with the current setup. We have two net tyre forces acting from each direction on the center, which causes oscillation at the center.

    Now the issue isn't so much the oscillation, it is rather the fact that the rack forces are output to your wheel causing the oscillation to act out on a physical level rather than the physics level which has a 600hz tick rate. So my theory is that if we let the rack forces act out against each other on a physics level and add the player input by means of a force into either direction (steering left or right) to upset the equilibrium, you can get a more natural force feedback feel. After all... you should only feel something the moment you turn the wheel, meaning that you should only feel a force working against you if you put a force in yourself. Newton's third law of motion again. So that also means that you can only turn the wheel if you can overcome its force.

    The issue is only controlling the output of the rack force, but that's a volume control thingy which we are familiar with, and balancing out that new player arm_force (as I like to call it at this point) against those forces.


    The issue at hand:
    I have a steering velocity and the acceleration can be derived from that as acceleration is the square root of velocity. Or velocity is acceleration by the power of 2. So what I am missing is not the power function in the FFB file but I don't see any square root function, and I am not a good enough mathematician to figure out how to calculate square root with only: power, add, subtract, multiply and divide functions.

    So if anyone can tell me how to calculate a square root without guessing as a computer can't guess? Anyone...? please?! Cherry on top!



    I think I am trying to redesign the FFB system a bit here. This could take a while.
    Although at least I figured out the fundamental issue, which isn't the tyre model exploding luckily. Oscillation is just something that naturally happens even in the real world as everything reacts and relates to each other. In fact I would argue that the oscillation happening is a testimony to how well the system works, as crazy as that may sound.

    At least these two chaps are giving me a headache... Newton and Einstein.

    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.03): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
    The following user likes this Post: Olijke Poffer


  7. #107
    GT3 Pilot morpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Beilen View Post
    Well, as long as you understand what I am trying to do..

    What I am trying to do is not translate the linear movement of the steering rack, so the bar which the tie-rods attach to, into a FFB output on a linear scale like now. Instead what I want is simulate a third wheel that rides on the rack, the pinion, so that the forces acting on the rack don't act directly on the steering wheel. So the executive force isn't the rack force itself but rather the pinion that rides on top of the rack.

    Why is it important to split these two? Try to put your hands together and push as hard as you can against each other, eventually you will also notice that under extreme force your hands will start to shake or oscillate.
    That is the issue with the current setup. We have two net tyre forces acting from each direction on the center, which causes oscillation at the center.

    Now the issue isn't so much the oscillation, it is rather the fact that the rack forces are output to your wheel causing the oscillation to act out on a physical level rather than the physics level which has a 600hz tick rate. So my theory is that if we let the rack forces act out against each other on a physics level and add the player input by means of a force into either direction (steering left or right) to upset the equilibrium, you can get a more natural force feedback feel. After all... you should only feel something the moment you turn the wheel, meaning that you should only feel a force working against you if you put a force in yourself. Newton's third law of motion again. So that also means that you can only turn the wheel if you can overcome its force.

    The issue is only controlling the output of the rack force, but that's a volume control thingy which we are familiar with, and balancing out that new player arm_force (as I like to call it at this point) against those forces.


    The issue at hand:
    I have a steering velocity and the acceleration can be derived from that as acceleration is the square root of velocity. Or velocity is acceleration by the power of 2. So what I am missing is not the power function in the FFB file but I don't see any square root function, and I am not a good enough mathematician to figure out how to calculate square root with only: power, add, subtract, multiply and divide functions.

    So if anyone can tell me how to calculate a square root without guessing as a computer can't guess? Anyone...? please?! Cherry on top!



    I think I am trying to redesign the FFB system a bit here. This could take a while.
    Although at least I figured out the fundamental issue, which isn't the tyre model exploding luckily. Oscillation is just something that naturally happens even in the real world as everything reacts and relates to each other. In fact I would argue that the oscillation happening is a testimony to how well the system works, as crazy as that may sound.

    At least these two chaps are giving me a headache... Newton and Einstein.


    You mean like 5 times 5 is 25? You just need to figure out what 2 equal numbers multiplied together equal whatever number you are using. Problem will be if the 2 numbers aren't like the ones I used. Like some odd number where you would need decimals after.
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  8. #108
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
    You mean like 5 times 5 is 25? You just need to figure out what 2 equal numbers multiplied together equal whatever number you are using. Problem will be if the 2 numbers aren't like the ones I used. Like some odd number where you would need decimals after.
    Indeed because the variable in this case is the velocity of the player's steering wheel. So it has to derive the square root from any of the numbers it's getting as an input.

    Once I can do that I have the acceleration of the steering wheel, which means I can calculate a theoretical force applied and than apply that force onto the rack in either direction as you turn the wheel. Which as a result will again output counter force which than will be the actual FFB signal that I will send as output to the wheel.
    Last edited by Christiaan van Beilen; 11-06-2019 at 21:56.
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.03): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
    The following 2 users likes this Post: 4dri3l, morpwr


  9. #109
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    I don't understand much about ffb but i do know a bit about physics. Those low speed oscilations could also be because of a lack of rest mass acting on the steering rack. It could be that adding some rest weight could cre this issue. I have it sometimes (haven't usee your ffb settings yet, doing it tonight or tomorrow) and it always felt like the game was trying to correct forces that got applied when the game initialized and because it has no weight or friction, it just oscilates trying to reach equilibrium. Not sure if i am spouting nonesense but before you go down a rabbit hole, the simple solution might work.

    On a side note, what is the best way to learn how to program ffb? It looks like a fun project.

  10. #110
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGold View Post
    I don't understand much about ffb but i do know a bit about physics. Those low speed oscilations could also be because of a lack of rest mass acting on the steering rack. It could be that adding some rest weight could cre this issue. I have it sometimes (haven't usee your ffb settings yet, doing it tonight or tomorrow) and it always felt like the game was trying to correct forces that got applied when the game initialized and because it has no weight or friction, it just oscilates trying to reach equilibrium. Not sure if i am spouting nonesense but before you go down a rabbit hole, the simple solution might work.

    On a side note, what is the best way to learn how to program ffb? It looks like a fun project.
    I did try adding "drag" (as it is called in the FFB file) but you'd need a lot of drag to stop the oscillation, hindering the game's performance. Plus somehow this drag function has a very grainy texture to it, almost like the motor is clogging.

    So yeah, tried that but that didn't go well. I tried to send equal and opposing forces in the end but that means you just have a dead wheel. Which means if the player turning the wheel doesn't add any force into the system but merely changes the position/direction of the front wheels, no force feedback will get generated.

    So my idea was to use one of the only two player inputs (steering position and velocity) at my advantage and calculate a force of which the mass is the mass of the two arms of an average adult (an average in between man and woman) of around the 77 kilograms and of that the percentual weight that the arms should weigh.

    I am only stuck at the fact that I don't have a root function, and that I don't know how to calculate the root with simple math and no guess work.
    I can use variables if needed.




    The best way to learn is just to look at a lot of FFB files and trying to figure out how to read them.

    (left_scale 1.0)
    (Fx (* left_scale FL_Fx))

    That is a simple one that set a variable for left_scale and than goes on to create a new variable in which a multiplication happens of everything between the brackets. FL_Fx is a Physics system output of the front left tyre force on the x-axis.

    It goes on throughout and is send to the wheel via stating a variable or sum of variables has to be set to the output variable.
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.03): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)

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