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Thread: Christiaan's Pure FFB (Custom pCARS2 FFB File)

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrobe View Post
    Sorry about the swearing.


    At Zaskarspants
    When I say the wheel turns heavy I mean really heavy. Maybe realistic on really old cars. But I doubt a BM
    Wm6 with servosteering feels like a tractor in real life when standing.

    About the oscillating. I drive a impreza wrx and yes if I go 150 kmh and let the wheel go it might start slightly oscillating. But please show me a car in real life where the wheel starts oscillating like a wild elephant when going 20 kmh or even standing. If you have enough time on your hands go for the Jack Spades thread and read trough it. Someone there explained really good that the root of the weirdly oscillating on some cars is caused by breaking mechanics and can't be fixed with ffb tweaks.

    At this point I'm not sure if you just a hardcore fanboy or just never have driven any real car.

    Anyone who defends pc2 ffb is just out of his mind.

    At rolo

    I asked about the wheel because the weight and diameter change the feeling of the ffb. Smaller wheel means strongefeedback. Heavier wheel means less feedback.
    I use the porsch918 wheel wich is on of the lightest. Maybe the forza wheel is a little bit heavier. Also ffb is a little bit of personal preference.

    Regards
    Yesterday night I use this setup for an hour...

    Sometimes I have problems to feel when the rear end loses traction (it tends to move the wheel to the opposite side where it is sliding) and when the front tires are losing grip (starts feeling a bit looser and more understeer, looser).

    What would happen if I +/- the DRI? or + the SPR to 10 or 20?

    I'm wrong in what should be set?

    I read the full Jack Spade thread and this, and in both, they talk about the mess with the FFB and the breaks.

  2. #322
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo F View Post
    Yesterday night I use this setup for an hour...

    Sometimes I have problems to feel when the rear end loses traction (it tends to move the wheel to the opposite side where it is sliding) and when the front tires are losing grip (starts feeling a bit looser and more understeer, looser).
    Depending on what you mean exactly a car will counter steer if you let go of the wheel when oversteering. This effect gets stronger if your car has more caster.
    Life's too short to front wheel drive
    DD1, 918 Wheel, SQ V1.5 Shifter, CS Handbrake V1.5 , V3 pedals, INNO3D 1080Ti, 4770K, 55" UHD LG/Vive

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  3. #323
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    Depending on what you mean exactly a car will counter steer if you let go of the wheel when oversteering. This effect gets stronger if your car has more caster.

    A video showing a direct drive wheel that does the 'auto negating drift steering' even better:
    https://youtu.be/576dHTW2dss?t=337

    And about understeer: steering should at least get a bit looser or lets just call it vaguer, not heavier at least.
    Life's too short to front wheel drive
    DD1, 918 Wheel, SQ V1.5 Shifter, CS Handbrake V1.5 , V3 pedals, INNO3D 1080Ti, 4770K, 55" UHD LG/Vive

    /// MaximusDoriftus (Steam)

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    And about understeer: steering should at least get a bit looser or lets just call it vaguer, not heavier at least.
    Yes!.. I'm talking just about that!!!

  5. #325
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo F View Post
    Yes!.. I'm talking just about that!!!
    It's a hot topic amongst sim racers I think, but at least with a rear wheel drive it should lighten, a little, not too much(effect should be greater with no power steering). Front wheel drive too, but throttle input can mess with the effect and might even give the opposite effect(when the inside wheel starts losing traction?). Not really feeling up to spending time in FWD's in multiple sims to prove that point though, so maybe someone else can chime in?

    From https://drivingfast.net/understeer/ :

    Symptoms of understeer


    • Light steering
    • Drifting towards the outside of a bend
    • Possible tyre noise from the front wheels
    Last edited by MaximusN; 19-10-2019 at 12:23.
    Life's too short to front wheel drive
    DD1, 918 Wheel, SQ V1.5 Shifter, CS Handbrake V1.5 , V3 pedals, INNO3D 1080Ti, 4770K, 55" UHD LG/Vive

    /// MaximusDoriftus (Steam)

  6. #326
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    I have been using Jack Spade's FFB tweaks since the beginning and have now joined Christiaan Pure FFB tweaks with interest from this article. Now I have some questions and I would like to know how the Christian FFB-tweaks differ from those of Jack Spade and what is better.

    How does the general driving feel, roadfeel, directness, clipping improve? I don't drive iRacing, which is generally considered a FFB reference, my reference so far is RRE.

    What are the best default settings for the FFB in PC2. My FX has always been set to 50, Volume and Tone varies between 40-65 depending on the vehicle.

    Is there a steering angle as reference or can each steering angle be selected with Christiaan's files to get a perfect FFB? (Jack Spade recommends not to go below 14 degrees in his tweaks)

    Jack Spade has created a complete vehicle list with the appropriate Volume/Tones values to avoid clipping. Is there such a thing for Christiaan's files available as well?

    I would be really grateful for any information and thank you very much.
    CPU I7 7700K@4.2GHZ, ASUS ROG STRIX Z270E, GPU MSI Achorus Geforce GTX 1080TI 11G, 32GB DDR4-2600 RAM, SDD1 Samsung M2 950 Pro 256GB, SSD2 Samsung M2 960 Pro 512GB, Windows 10 64Bit, Fanatec CSW 2.5 & Fanatec F1 Rim 2018 Limited Edition, Fanatec Pedals CSP V3, RSeat RS1

  7. #327
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thydney1970 View Post
    I have been using Jack Spade's FFB tweaks since the beginning and have now joined Christiaan Pure FFB tweaks with interest from this article. Now I have some questions and I would like to know how the Christian FFB-tweaks differ from those of Jack Spade and what is better.

    How does the general driving feel, roadfeel, directness, clipping improve? I don't drive iRacing, which is generally considered a FFB reference, my reference so far is RRE.

    What are the best default settings for the FFB in PC2. My FX has always been set to 50, Volume and Tone varies between 40-65 depending on the vehicle.

    Is there a steering angle as reference or can each steering angle be selected with Christiaan's files to get a perfect FFB? (Jack Spade recommends not to go below 14 degrees in his tweaks)

    Jack Spade has created a complete vehicle list with the appropriate Volume/Tones values to avoid clipping. Is there such a thing for Christiaan's files available as well?

    I would be really grateful for any information and thank you very much.
    Okay, I have only touched Jack's files once or twice but never took it for more than a quick spin because I didn't like it. It just didn't feel natural to me. Mostly due to the fact that his files tend to focus more, in my humble opinion, on putting all driver information that you get in a car through the steering wheel. Yet not all vibrations and movements that you feel come from the steering wheel's rotational movement, most come through the suspension attachment points and go into the car's chassis. Which in itselfs starts to shake (up down, left right) and thus shakes everything that is attached to it within the car... your seat, your wheel, your dash, your shifter, your handbrake... everything! These shakes aren't rotational movement but they are something that thus can be felt through the steering wheel. Yet the way they are achieved is better left for tactile speakers and SimVibe (or similar programs), and basically chassis mode with 4 tactile speakers on each corner is all you really need. Unless you want to go overboard and get really nitpicky.

    Why didn't I choose to include all these layers of information that basically is a shake transcribed into a rotational movement? Well, imagine a piece of music that you write in a sampler... you can add tons of layers of sounds and rhythms on top of each other. At some point the audio visual spectrum gets so crowded that music turns into noise, and even sooner becomes noise when it has to be broadcast via a speaker. Which is exactly the same for force feedback!
    As you probably know. Both a speaker and a motor work on base of magnetism, while you can increase the amount of pull the electromagnet can make it can only push or pull. Equal poles are repellent and opposite poles are attracting. With this a speaker moves inward or outward as polarity changes, and a motor rotates left or right depending on the polarity. These limiting states make it very limiting in how much information you can actually transfer all at the same time through just a single device, of course the bigger and stronger the speaker/motor and amp/motor driver is the more easily and quickly it can change the direction as polarities are switched back and forth to create for example a rumble. Hence you hear Direct Drive wheel users say they can feel the road moving underneath their car, but quite frankly... not happening on my CSW v2 as this subtle noise is being overwhelmed by the larger forces it has to display. Basically even before clipping the CSW v2 or any low powered wheel it's already getting overwhelmed and that road feel 'gets lost in the mix'. I am sure you've somewhere heard that term before by audio engineers that work in studios.

    So my aim was to basically cut down all the noise and feed through that what is supposed to be coming through. What I mean with that is that I only wanted to come through what would be coming through the steering rack, as this is the only thing affecting the rotational movement of the steering wheel in a real car. All the other feelings like road noise I've cut out, but left available under FX setting for those that do want it.
    I can already hear you say "But Christiaan... isn't that just basically the RAW flavour?!". Yes and no, as in the OP I have discovered that a tyre force was left out of the equation which in some cars even resulted in weird comprehensive force feedback signals. The Ferrari FXX-K was actually one like that which is the reason I went searching if there was a cause. Which I found in both Mx and My, and after I found that I started to try and cut back on code as much as possible. Which led to many hours of comparing and double checking if I wasn't feeling any placebos, at which point I found various matters that introduce undesirable background noise to the signal. Noise that could not be identified or placed. Which has eventually led to where we are today.

    My reference is the cars I have driven throughout my life. Lancia Delta, Alfa Romeo 156, BMW E46, Toyota GT86, and a couple of other things that aren't worth mentioning.
    Simulation is our desire to come as close to the real thing as possible after all, so referring to another game is just plane wrong.
    There are things that I miss in Project CARS' force feedback of course among which gyroscopic forces of wheels with tyres with different weights along with their respective braking gear, including also the balance or unbalance of individual tyres (either fresh out of the pits or having acquired damage by impact of harsh curbs or cars, or simply because of pickup of dirty and debry)... in other words the gyroscopic forces of the unsprung weights, which would add A LOT to natural road feel. I think developers today still very much underestimate how much road feel actually comes from all of that.

    Settings recommendations are in the OP.

    Perfect Force Feedback is very subjective. Steering angle... I believe you mean the Arm_Angle setting? This is the steering knuckle arm's angle to which the tie-rod end gets attached. Basically it can range from 0-90 degrees, where 0 degrees is parallel to the tyre and 90 degrees is perpendicular to the tyre. Basically the setting is best left alone but feel free to experiment, it's the only way to learn and truly understand what's going on. It's how I did it after all.

    No such thing, but I suggest mapping those controls to your steering wheel and experiment. Again, I stick with what I recommend myself in the OP but we don't all strive for the same kind of information in Force Feedback and some prefer the more game like approach of trying to accommodate for shortcomings in either the lack of other sensory feedback like seat of the pants feelings. So that's why I am also not personally a believer in everyone sharing their settings, as we all search for different answers to our needs. What we can do is share the experiences of our experiments in order to come to a better understanding, and to understand what eventually will suit each of us individually the best.

    So I also want to take this opportunity for others in here to reply to you with their findings. Learn from knowledge not just the information, because information alone isn't always knowledge. After all, we all only know something once we've gone through the experience ourselves. It is why scientists also experiment because they want to know, they want to experience in order to understand.

    I hope this suffices or maybe it brought up more questions than answers, if so I apologize. We don't all have the same knowledge so maybe some parallels to for example the audio world I made might not click for you. If so maybe you are knowledgeable in a different area that is also in some way similar to the science applied in a force feedback wheel, and maybe if I know about that as well I could try to explain it again in a way you might be able to more clearly understand as you can draw the parallels.
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.04): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
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  8. #328
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    Hi Christiaan

    Thanks a lot for your information in deep details and I agree, that force feedback should reflect the forces you feel in a car. As already written, I have driven since almost 3 years with jacks files, which gave me a good overall feedback on road and also from the car. I just have driven with your files in the Ligier JS P2 LMP2 car at Algarve which is a laserscanned track as I'm informed. It's a complete other feedback and feel to jacks files. I'm driving with a Fanatec CSW V2.5 base and the F1 2018 Limited Edition rim for your information. I set the FFB in Game as follows:

    Gain 100
    Volume 80
    Tone 50
    FX 50

    I've made a mixed experience after driving 25 laps, what I'm missing most is the feel of the rear wheels/axis and had several spins and oversteering out of corners. The wheel feels much more lighter which is quit good for counter steering and quick reacting. What I'm missing most is feedback from the road and surface which gives important information when loosing grip and traction out of corners especially. I'm feeling as I would turn on a power steering wheel. don't take this as criticism, I guess it's more my FFB settings and I would be very grateful for more information and support.

    I also did a few laps with the RAW-FFB setting, I have the impression the feedback is very similar to yours, but the rear and the rear axle feels even lighter in the RAW profile.

    How do I get more information from the road surface, from the rear axle in your FFB files? I would also like to have a little more power/resistance on the steering wheel itself.

    I thank you for further information and look forward to hearing from you again.

    Many thanks for your support.
    Last edited by thydney1970; 15-11-2019 at 23:47.
    CPU I7 7700K@4.2GHZ, ASUS ROG STRIX Z270E, GPU MSI Achorus Geforce GTX 1080TI 11G, 32GB DDR4-2600 RAM, SDD1 Samsung M2 950 Pro 256GB, SSD2 Samsung M2 960 Pro 512GB, Windows 10 64Bit, Fanatec CSW 2.5 & Fanatec F1 Rim 2018 Limited Edition, Fanatec Pedals CSP V3, RSeat RS1

  9. #329
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    In a real car the rear tyres are not connected to the steering rack. So the only way you get information from the rear axle with my files is by the weight of the car pushing and acting upon the steering rack.

    What you, and I mind you, are lacking is very simply the dynamic range of power of a Direct Drive base.
    The stronger the base the better it should work.

    All FX effects are from Jack's files though. So why you are feeling road feel is different is beyond me. Besides I haven't touched it all since the summer as I got fed up with the oscillation bug coming from the braking system or whatever is hooked up weirdly.

    If you want more power your best bet is increasing FOR on your steering wheel over 100, if you are near clipping in-game.
    You can also see if having some clipping is an option.

    Also I haven't been able to get more information from the road. There is just no option to do it in the force feedback files, except for faking it.

    Anyway, using too much steering lock and causing oversteer and spinouts is simply a result of lack of volume or too low FOR setting on the wheel. Also have FF to 100, and for DRI settings you might want to ask someone here with the same wheel. The internal resistance of your wheel is a lot lower than mine or course. I would start with DRI off though.

    Also the gyro effects I talked about. Weight of the front wheels is part of it that is missing as well as road feel.
    This is really missing in all sims though.
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.04): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
    The following user likes this Post: drakqvist


  10. #330
    WMD Member Christiaan van Beilen's Avatar
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    NEW RELEASE

    I have just released 1.04 and split it up a bit. There are folks out there who were pretty disturbed by the oscillation, so I added back versions with LSS (Low Speed Smoothing) that SMS has used in their own flavours as well. This does add a bit of background noise to the force feedback though, but feel free to choose the evil you desire the most.

    On top of this for both wheels I added subversions to the LSS versions where you can pick between the game's standard FX or Jack Spade's FX.

    The updated files are in the OP and I also uploaded the 1.04 Beta to the OP post, for those who still want to revert for whatever reason and don't wish to dick through all the forum posts here, as I had originally uploaded it midway somewhere.


    Enjoy!

    Christiaan
    Christiaan's Pure FFB (latest version: v1.04): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...ARS2-FFB-File)

    Nicknames elsewhere on the web (incl. Steam, XBN, PSN, etc): LogiForce or LogiForce86

    System: Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz - Noctua NH-D14 - MSI Z68A-GD65 (G3) - Vengeance LP 16GB 1600mhz - EVGA RTX 2080 XC ULTRA 8GB - AverMedia Live Gamer HD (1080p@30hz capture card) - OCZ Vertex 4 256GB (FW: 1.5) - Creative Soundblaster X-Fi titanium champ - Logitech Z-560 4.1 - LG OLED55B8PLA TV

    Input: Logitech Wingman Formula Force - Logitech G25 - Thrustmaster T500 RS - Thrustmaster TH8 RS - Fanatec ClubSport Wheel - Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V1 & V2 - Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ - Fanatec ClubSport BMW M3 GT2 rim - Fanatec ClubSport Formula rim (*italic = in use)
    The following 4 users likes this Post: cpcdem, drakqvist, PostBox981, RobPhoboS


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