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Thread: How to drive Formula C?

  1. #21
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregow View Post
    By the way, I don't enjoy myself the most when only going for better lap times. I love the whole process of systematically trying to improve myself, and the car. But to do that you also have isolate the factors as best you can. Like with Formula C, I know for a fact that my driving is way off from the potential of the car even at default setup.
    Okay, yeah I keep forgetting people drive at different levels. What you are saying is for sure true if you are 10 seconds or more off the pace of the top 10 times. Then yes, it means you are way under the limit virtually everywhere and thus setups would not mean anything , though in this special case of the Formula C, I would extremely highly recommend a super stable easy to drive setup so that you could truly learn the limits and actually hit apexes consistently (a must to be anywhere near top 10 lists).

    So yeah, everything I've been saying about setups so far only truly apply if you aren't completely off the pace..


    This is how I usually rank pace of drivers and thus how important car setups are for each category (also how I judge "opinions" about physics and FFB from people.. category 6) and 7) I usually completely ignore in those discussions, which usually cuts down the vast majority of sim racers, curiously enough):


    1) Aliens.. lets say they make a 1:30:000 time around something, +/- 0.5s

    2) Super Fast people would then perhaps drive 1:30:500 to1:31:000

    3) Fast people would then be 1:31:500 to 1:32:000

    4) Moderately Fast people would do 1:32:500 to 1:34:000. This is where I am at now, usually about 4 seconds off "alien" pace. This is a frustrating place because I am truly driving the cars mostly the correct racing line and also to the limit constantly, yet can't quite figure out how to shave off that half a second or sometimes even a whole second to be within the "fast" category, and doing it consistently is even more difficult! Usually it boils down to truly maximizing the track limits, NOT overdriving the car over the limit and also working on exact break points and turn-in, turn-out (exit) points.. meticulously practicing this over and over until it becomes second nature.

    5) Mid pack drivers would drive 1:34:000 to 1:37:000

    6) Slow drivers would be from 1:37:000 to 1:40:00

    7) Truly slow drivers where no setups help at all would be 1:40:000 and upwards. These people would immediately upgrade to category 5) if they only hit every single apex, even without being anywhere near the limit of the car (this is the secret very few people seem to realize, looking at some ghosts and times of the various top lists in pCars and other sims). Simply taking the correct racing line around a race track and actually focusing on accelerating early out of corners, not even trying to drive fast, immediately cuts down 5 to 6 seconds just like that at most tracks.


    So yeah, if anybody reading this falls into category 7) then forget about car setups for now. Even category 6) could potentially gain absolutely no benefit at all from car setups unless the car is spinning them out all the time. A super stable, even slightly understeery setup could help in this case.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
    Eh? That question is like asking: How do you know an instrument is out of tune? Answer: You hear it!! It sounds horrible. If you can not hear a completely out of tune instrument, you need practice from the very basics. Ok, to be fair you can measure instruments and check their tuning down to the tiniest decimal. You can kind of do this with race cars too.. but it requires discipline and __consistent__ driving.
    Letís follow that analogy then. We can both agree that it sounds like the piano has been drinking. You say the piano is out of tune. Just listen to it, right? I say, letís investigate it properly before coming to any definitive conclusion.

    What if we transpose the song to a different key? What if that makes the piano sound brilliant? Perhaps youíre assuming equal tempered tuning, but itís just intonation?

  3. #23
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    Then we are discussing details. That would be exactly like discussing the fine details between a slightly oversteery or a slightly understeery setup to suite the situation. The point was, it is possible to empirically demonstrate when one setup is more superior than another. It is really simple. You just drive extremely consistent consecutive laps with one setup and then compare the exact same process with another setup. If the latter setup is 1.5 seconds faster on average overall and you can for certain say that your driving ability is not the culprit for such variance (see my 1 to 7 "ranking" of drivers abilities) then the only logical conclusion is that the setup was the reason for the variance. Thus, the faster setup is the better setup. Period. You can even see it in telemetry when studying the G forces (longitudinal and lateral). It is empiric irrefutable evidence of one being better than the other.

    This is not at all as difficult or ambiguous as some of you guys desperately seem to want to make it. It's pretty simple logic.
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  4. #24
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    I just drove it for the first time yesterday (springs on 90, dampers to match, 0 wing, minimum ride height with a bit of rake) at monza. I don't care that I'm slow but I absolutely love the car. I find that it's one of the few cars in the game that really punishes being clumsy. Be a little aggressive on the throttle mid corner and it'll spit sideways. Be rough with the brake>turn on entry and it'll run wide.
    Be precise and the speed will come.
    It sucked in pc1 where all it ever did was understeer and it was near impossible for me to keep heat and grip on the front.
    In pc2 it is magic!
    G29 FFB RAW 100-40-5-10

  5. #25
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    I just drove it for the first time yesterday (springs on 90, dampers to match, 0 wing, minimum ride height with a bit of rake) at monza. I don't care that I'm slow but I absolutely love the car. I find that it's one of the few cars in the game that really punishes being clumsy. Be a little aggressive on the throttle mid corner and it'll spit sideways. Be rough with the brake>turn on entry and it'll run wide.
    Be precise and the speed will come.
    It sucked in pc1 where all it ever did was understeer and it was near impossible for me to keep heat and grip on the front.
    In pc2 it is magic!
    The only thing that catches me offguard(and which I hate with a passion) in the C is the lift-off oversteer. The throttle input on corner exit is something you get the hang of after 1 lap(talking Red Bull Ring here). So for me to drive the car confidently I'm going to at least have to reduce the engine braking(or some other minor tweak). Overall balance is pretty okay, I might even say it could use more oversteer aero wise(which you might have to compensate by making the mechanical balance a bit more understeered, although engine braking alone could be enough).

    But out of the box it's a tune I don't enjoy and I don't care very much for adapting my driving to it(it's almost like it's a FWD hothatch). Praise the lord for setups. :P
    Last edited by MaximusN; 26-07-2019 at 08:03.
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  6. #26
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    The only thing that catches me offguard(and which I hate with a passion) in the C is the lift-off oversteer.
    Sounds more like the frookie but that's guaranteed lift off skids everywhere no matter what the tune
    So not unpredictable at all.
    I didn't have that problem unless I was really rough with my inputs. I will try it at red bull ring next.
    Also tightened the diff.
    G29 FFB RAW 100-40-5-10

  7. #27
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkraft300 View Post
    Also tightened the diff.
    It's personal preference ofcourse, but I don't like a tight coast diff. But it should work in a similar way. It has one big pro over reducing engine braking, you get to keep more deceleration when off-throttle. As a matter of fact I feel messing with engine braking is nothing more than a quick fix, but it does it very well. On the other hand I drive open wheelers with left foot braking, so I could also keep a little throttle myself in suspect areas. On the RBR the only place that catches me out is the left/right section before the final two corners. Specifically when entering the left. I might even try running a higher gear through the corner because that reduces engine braking enough too.

    All in all it's something you can drive around, but it will always catch you off guard when you have to make a split second move. Specifically because going off throttle should be your safe place(IMHO at least). So if it's quicker, it's fine for a qualification setup, but a no-no for races(for me at least).
    Life's too short to front wheel drive
    DD1, 918 Wheel, SQ V1.5 Shifter, CS Handbrake V1.5 , V3 pedals, INNO3D 1080Ti, 4770K, 55" UHD LG/Vive

    /// MaximusDoriftus (Steam)
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    The only thing that catches me offguard(and which I hate with a passion) in the C is the lift-off oversteer
    Too aggressive engine breaking setting (common problem with the game). Try turning it off or reducing it by increasing the setting to the 8-10 range.

  9. #29
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    Well, since I asked for tips on driving, here's a video of me driving. Default stable setup. I can see perhaps 1-1.5 seconds improvement on this lap. Haven't managed it yet though. When I start to push from here I tend to make more serious mistakes.
    https://youtu.be/mjBF9NifXNg

  10. #30
    WMD Member bmanic's Avatar
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    You're doing all the classic mistakes.

    1) You are not driving the optimum racing line almost throughout the whole lap (on this track you have to compromise quite a few corners to be quicker on the throttle at the actually important bits, before all the straights.. you don't do this at all)

    2) You don't use the whole track at all. So many corners where you should happily be cutting the curbs and going all the way out to the curbs

    3) You are too passive, braking much earlier than needed in many places and when you do brake, you do it very pedestrian like, slowly shifting down

    4) Some corners you simply take too slow, for instance the very first corner complex after the finish line, you should be able to maintain almost 160km/h speed at the slowest part and then be on the throttle much earlier

    It's hard to pinpoint where exactly you should start but I'm sure you'd gain an immediate 2 seconds off your time if you simply nail the few corners before the straights (last corner complex, after 3rd corner complex and post mid corner complex). Then concentrate on actually using the whole track all the time and try to get your braking distance much later (there's at least a whole second to be had if you optimize braking).

    I still haven't figured out the optimum car setup though. Should I run this track full wings or as little as possible, sacrificing some corners? I don't know yet. It also doesn't help that this track has virtually no FFB feel.. there's very little "texture" or banking going on so it's a bit vague and hard to pinpoint slip angles.


    EDIT: I'm starting to suspect this track needs only moderate downforce/wing settings. You can download my setup by inserting my 'Ghost' when entering TT for Brno. My Steam name is "Maggot Brain". You can also find my current FFB file here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...=1#post1576600

    EDIT (ongoing): Current lap time around Brno GP with Formula C as of this edit: 2:01:595, position 13 in Time Trial.
    Last edited by bmanic; 02-08-2019 at 00:40.
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