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Thread: GRID (2019)

  1. #11
    Moderator GTsimms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzah View Post
    I just wish we could call racing games, racing games again without some kind of arbitrary class separation used to judge others on what they enjoy doing.

    Anyway, I really am excited for this game. It looks like it will bring me much laffs and joy. And frankly, Autosport failed to deliver on the joy and all the laffs were sarcastic.
    It's like the community says, it's not a full sim. So, I can't enjoy it. Even our simulations are still exactly simulations. So, should we classify them as less? Since, they are not an actual representation of real driving!
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTsimms View Post
    It's like the community says, it's not a full sim. So, I can't enjoy it. Even our simulations are still exactly simulations. So, should we classify them as less? Since, they are not an actual representation of real driving!
    There's a difference, Grid games are not trying to be sims, Codemasters themselves say (or at least used to say) they are not sims. SMS, Kunos etc on the other hand refer to their products as sims.

    I agree both types can be enjoyable of course!

  3. #13
    WMD Member Shinzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTsimms View Post
    It's like the community says, it's not a full sim. So, I can't enjoy it. Even our simulations are still exactly simulations. So, should we classify them as less? Since, they are not an actual representation of real driving!
    Simulation is a stupid term to me. I'll use it, if it's easier. But I'd rather not. Nor would I rather use Arcade or Simcade or Pseudosim. Why? Because, as I've often argued - a simulation in this context is defined as something that imitates a process, or as something that mathematically predicts a process.
    By either logic, literally most videogames are "simulations" of SOMETHING.

    Most people argue against by offering that racing simulations use advanced maths in order to produce "realistic" physical calculations. The problem with this argument is that most 'hardcore' racing simulations do the math in different ways AND with different focuses. All of us with extensive experience in racing simulations can determine the differences between simulations when using the same vehicles. *This* then usually leads to an argument on which is the most "Realistic" but none of them are the most "Realistic" because whatever one has done well in some area, another has done well in some other area, and even hardware can determine major differences in feel and experience and then exists cognitive pre-biases which leads to skewing objectivity.

    Beyond that, we shouldn't really call racing simulations "Realistic" or "Accurate" because the amount of math required to produce a physical rigid simulation of realities conditions according to established and understood science is impossible to process on any computer ever built and maybe every computer that ever WILL be built.

    We play videogames. Some videogames produce a "Good Enough" resemblance to reality that they can be used as tools (iracing, rfactor, pcars2, assetto, whatever else), but that does not make them "Accurate". And most Simulators use trickery in order to produce the desired effects anyway and many use quality of life changes in order to produce "Good Enough" results with broad enough appeal to be playable.

    Even iRacing does this.

    So when I see elitists arguing about realism and simulations and going to town crapping all over people who play "Arcade" games or "Console" games or anything that isn't their desired choice, I've just given up. I won't even join those fights anymore. Unless it's to say something like this.

    And beyond all of that, and to wrap this up on topic.

    If GRID 2019 produces a visceral, tangible, well crafted environment that's immersive and engaging, it's still a successful "Simulation" of the Motorsport experience. It simply does not attempt to completely adhere to physical reality in order to achieve an accurate mental response to whatevers going on. Because a game doesn't focus on millimeter precise suspension maths, does not make it any less of a simulation than a game that does. It's about the goal. And when it comes to those goals, like I said before, just about every videogame ever made is a "Simulation".
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzah View Post
    Shinzah's post.
    response:
    Sims are pieces of content that tries to accurately or realistically imitate a subject (so pretty much get close enough to it), in this case; automotive racing.

    Most people argue against by offering that racing simulations use advanced maths in order to produce "realistic" physical calculations. The problem with this argument is that most 'hardcore' racing simulations do the math in different ways AND with different focuses. All of us with extensive experience in racing simulations can determine the differences between simulations when using the same vehicles. *This* then usually leads to an argument on which is the most "Realistic" but none of them are the most "Realistic" because whatever one has done well in some area, another has done well in some other area, and even hardware can determine major differences in feel and experience and then exists cognitive pre-biases which leads to skewing objectivity.

    Beyond that, we shouldn't really call racing simulations "Realistic" or "Accurate" because the amount of math required to produce a physical rigid simulation of realities conditions according to established and understood science is impossible to process on any computer ever built and maybe every computer that ever WILL be built.


    accuracy is something that correctly or precisely depicts something, for instance FURY accurately depicts how tanks move and respond to their respective environment, where as Girls Und Panzer does not.

    realism is something that can be attributed to a truthful or plausible depiction of a subject, FURY realistically depicts how an 88mm round from a KwK36 8,8cm cannon from a Tiger H1 (known as Tiger 131 at The Tank Museum) effects M4 Sherman tank crews, where as Girl Und Panzer does not.

    in short what i'm saying is; accuracy covers the content in gaming, whereas realism covers the feeling.

    when I play for instance Code Vein I don't get a realistic interpretation of how to swing a sword, or how to fight a vampire, I do however get a accurate interpretation of how to anime up and fight other vampires.


    GRID 2019 is not a full blown simulation because it doesn't realistically depict automotive racing, it's a sim-cade game it accurately depicts automotive racing (the devs called it as such), focused on being fun but bends realism to uphold that fun game style/gameplay.

    if the game reaches a certain level of accuracy then it is a sim-cade, even if it doesn't realistically depict what it is showing.
    and if a game reaches a certain level of accuracy AND realism it is a classified as a sim.
    (if it does neither it is an arcade game)

    also I don't think most games are simulating something as if we go by your definition of simulation, then Dark Souls is a sim because it accurately and realistically depicts how to kill dragons.

    I believe you're over complicating the word 'simulation'.
    Last edited by GTsimms; 30-09-2019 at 03:04.
    you're not supposed to go into the light, you're supposed to drift around it.
    Simulations 7:07
    drivers are not alive, the car is.
    Simulations 7:20

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTsimms View Post
    I will actually enjoy drifting, if I can use my Fanatec Handbrake. Autosport was not configurable. But, the below video looks like GRID could be configurable!


    .
    ayyyye you watch TheSlapTrain1
    you're not supposed to go into the light, you're supposed to drift around it.
    Simulations 7:07
    drivers are not alive, the car is.
    Simulations 7:20

  6. #16
    GT3 Pilot Olijke Poffer's Avatar
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    Personally I don’t care what it is called. Sim, simcade, arcade, shit, unplayable etc . As long as I have fun with it it is ok for me. no matter what other people say about it.
    Last edited by Olijke Poffer; 29-09-2019 at 07:34.
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  7. #17
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    I'm in the same boat tbh.


    as a War Game person you actually got this kind of turmoil early in the life span between the War thunder community and the WarGaming community because the War Thunder players think that their game is sooo more realistic than World of Insert Vehicle Type here game. when in reality War Thunder is as much of an arcade to WarGaming games because it doesn't realistically nor accurately depict War Machines.

    this titles goes to DCS and IL-2 Sturmovik as you already know.

    but hey competition is competition it's going to create some elitist out there always.
    you're not supposed to go into the light, you're supposed to drift around it.
    Simulations 7:07
    drivers are not alive, the car is.
    Simulations 7:20
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  8. #18
    WMD Member Shinzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    response:
    Sims are pieces of content that tries to accurately or realistically imitate a subject (so pretty much get close enough to it), in this case; automotive racing.
    There's another word. That word is BELIEVABILITY. We'll get to that in a moment. For now consider -


    ac·cu·ra·cy
    /ˈakyərəsē/
    noun
    the quality or state of being correct or precise.


    Realism
    is the precise, detailed and accurate representation in art of the visual appearance of scenes and objects i.e., it is drawn in photographic precision. Realism in this sense is also called naturalism, mimesis or illusionism.

    accuracy is something that correctly or precisely depicts something, for instance FURY accurately depicts how tanks move and respond to their respective environment, where as Girls Und Panzer does not.

    realism is something that can be attributed to a truthful or plausible depiction of a subject, FURY realistically depicts how an 88mm round from a KwK36 8,8cm cannon from a Tiger H1 (known as Tiger 131 at The Tank Museum) effects M4 Sherman tank crews, where as Girl Und Panzer does not.
    Fury is literally a film about tanks. It was filmed using tanks. Actual tanks. In actual reality. This is like saying "Days of Thunder is more accurate than Redline". And to be entirely fair, both Fury and Girls und Panzer are F I C T I O N A L.

    Fury is a story about something that never happened, using actual tanks.

    Girls und Panzer never happened and is animation.

    We aren't discussing film, we're discussing videogames. Videogames are interactive. Film is not a complex system. You point a camera at something, or you draw something, and you put it all together. It's kind of hard to make tank movement unrealistic when you film an actual tank driving. You can't film a racecar and call it a racing simulator.

    Nice strawmen though. Good attempt. Well done effort. Not even the same thing to the concept of the discussion. Weak opening.

    in short what i'm saying is; accuracy covers the content in gaming, whereas realism covers the feeling.

    when I play for instance Code Vein I don't get a realistic interpretation of how to swing a sword, or how to fight a vampire, I do however get a accurate interpretation of how to anime up and fight other vampires.
    You can't have an "Accurate" depiction of Fiction. Accuracy requires measurable data. You get a BELIEVABLE interpretation of how to anime up and fight other vampires. And this is, of course, my entire point - you proved.

    GRID 2019 is not a full blown simulation because it doesn't realistically depict automotive racing, it's a sim-cade game it accurately depicts automotive racing (the devs called it as such), focused on being fun but bends realism to uphold that fun game style/gameplay.
    I like how you've reversed Accuracy and Realism here. If GRID 2019 ACCURATELY depicted auto-racing, we'd not be having this discussion and everybody can go home. Grid is far, far, more realistic than it is accurate.

    if the game reaches a certain level of accuracy then it is a sim-cade, even if it doesn't realistically depict what it is showing.
    and if a game reaches a certain level of accuracy AND realism it is a classified as a sim.
    (if it does neither it is an arcade game)
    You're still conflating the two here, too. I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

    Accuracy - The measurable quality of how accurate a thing is. We expect racing simulators to be some degree of accurate in many ways. Unfortunately almost all of this "Accuracy" is a lie. Because motorsports is extremely complex and no simulation can hope to achieve this total complexity. You will never have a totally accurate driving simulator. Flying simulator. Freakin' walking in a park simulator. The resolution of the simulation is just as important to the discussion as the simulation itself.

    To demonstrate this - it takes computational fluid dynamics simulations (actual scientific particle simulations used in actual development of actual things) between HOURS and DAYS to depict particle flow with any degree of accuracy at all, and often, CFD is ballpark at best and actually testing a model using a windtunnel in reality yields much more precise data.

    also I don't think most games are simulating something as if we go by your definition of simulation, then Dark Souls is a sim because it accurately and realistically depicts how to kill dragons.
    Dark Souls simulates walking, environmental interaction, fabric, other body movement, pain, weight......

    I believe you're over complicating the word 'simulation'.
    No, I'm a linguist. It's my hobby. I strive to use language as its meant to be used. Not in conflation with other words. English users are especially bad for making up meanings to well defined words and then trying to pass them off as the intended meaning for words.

    Once again.

    Realism - The act of DEPICTING reality in a manner that is accurate and true to life. GRID does this quite well. The race cars look like racecars. The race tracks look like race tracks. The race cars on the race tracks behave in a manner which is easily predicted. That is to say, the cars move in a reasonable enough manner that you'd expect cars to move in. GRID is really quite REALISTIC when taken on the aesthetic interpretation. In terms of rigidity, GRID is still more "Realistic" than it is "Accurate" because it is more precise in its depiction of being "like reality" than it is not, it is however, not physically accurate. Even if you were to defined Realism as being Like Reality, because of the way modern graphics and physics engines work in general, GRID will still be more REALISTIC than it is ACCURATE.

    Accuracy - The measurable quality of the data vs the actual reality of the data. A low level of accuracy means things are quite far from being mathematically correct. No sim is very close to being an accurate depiction of reality because all sims are forced to use a lot of data that is averaged for the sake of complexity. All sims use data that interpreted from incomplete extrapolation. All sims have a low level of accuracy versus reality. "Arcade" games only have slightly less, when it comes to "Arcade" racing games accurately depicting motorsport.

    and that brings us nicely to our new word:

    Believability. The quality of being believed. Or the quality of being convincing and realistic.
    GRID *can* achieve this, because achieving this is a lot easier than people think. It's also why a lot of actual racing drivers consult on games we don't consider "Simulations". But I'm not going to sit here and drill it into your head how, mostly because I think you're trying to punch up and like I said before - I'm not interested in these stupid discussions.

    Where believability applies to this discussion is that a "Hardcore racing sim" can be just as realistic, and may be slightly more accurate. But because they achieve realism and accuracy in different ways, with different focuses, it's our perception of what is BELIEVABLE that is how we define them. We bandy about words like "Realism" (Of Reality) and Accuracy (Precise interpretation of defined data) but every game, like I said before, does it differently. Believability is very subjective. It is much more subjective than Realism and Accuracy. Realism MUST BE of or pertaining to that which is REAL. Accuracy MUST BE of or pertaining to that which is PREDEFINED.

    Believability only has to convince you that a situation is plausible. That's it. It has to do nothing else. A racing sim could be held together with duct tape and spit (and many are), but as long as you find it believable, that's all that matters.

    I have been fortunate enough to have driven cars on race tracks. Let me tell you. When it comes to feeling, a lot of these "Arcade" games nail it. They might not be precise in lap times or handling, but in terms of FEELING, they get it. They understand. Most sims don't. They're boring. And stale. And that again, is why actual drivers tend to consult on "Arcade" games. Because the goal is getting the actual emotional feeling right above anything else.

    That's it. I'm done engaging. This is my opinion. It will not change. I am not interested in debating to change it. I am simply expressing my beliefs. Any further issue with that will be ignored.
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  9. #19
    GT3 Pilot Olijke Poffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzah View Post
    Shinzah's post.
    You must have lots of spare time to post such replies
    Last edited by GTsimms; 30-09-2019 at 03:03.
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  10. #20
    WMD Member Shinzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olijke Poffer View Post
    You must have lots of spare time to post such replies
    No, I woke up two hours early for the Formula 1 grand prix because I had to pee. ^^;

    I had time and decided to demonstrate my hobby and my opinion to somebody on the internet. I thought this was how internetting is supposed to work? Am I doing it wrong? o-o



    Anyway. Who is excited about DPI's and also, who is getting the deluxe edition and thinks its worth it?
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