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Thread: what can SMS learn from the other sims?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    Yeah, but how to "copy" something from another game? You cannot simply copy their code... You maybe actually trying to get the exact same result, but in practice make it very different (better or worse). It's not like textures or sound samples for example, which someone could indeed (illegally of course) simply copy from one game to the other.
    So, what you can "copy" is design choice. The choices one makes when making decisions. With my two examples, one can choose to have manikins as drivers, or one can choose to invest time into making them feel more alive. Likewise career mode. One can choose to follow the WRC8 and F1 game models, take parts from it, discard what you don't like, or one can choose to follow the current model, which is similar to the design choice of, say, the latest Grid game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzah View Post
    So perhaps "What can SMS learn from others" isn't the right statement, but rather, "What do we like about others". I think that's more positive. The negative of the first is in that it implies SMS needs to learn, or rather, that SMS has done something wrong by not implementing features. That's the real goal here, I think. To find the consensus. But this forum is full of wishlists and this discussion feels a bit obsolete by them.
    Quote Originally Posted by RyokoMaruyama View Post
    You all have really low standards...SMS don't need to learn from other sims. They need to learn how to further push sim racing to another level instead and out do the others
    I don't agree with these two sentiments, though they may be accurate to the way some developers work - only using their own past work as reference for what to do next. I think it's important to look at what and how the competition does things, just so they can see whether it works, or not. I think learning from others is a positive attribute. I don't think SMS has done something "wrong" as could be interpreted by the title of the post - it can be interpreted in other ways.
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  2. #22
    GT5 Pilot Zaskarspants's Avatar
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    SMS are leading the way in many areas with live track, variable weather, time of day, seta tyre model, massive car and track list, 600Hz physics update and I am sure there is more, I hope they continue to innovate, not copy.

    It seems to me other Sims are benefiting from copying SMS.
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  3. #23
    Moderator Sankyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    SMS didn't really "push" sims into doing anything different... this evolution was bound to happen, or as Thanos puts it 'inevitable,' Project CARS 2 was just the first of them, and proved that 'detailed' sims is what people want, so all the other sims just kept going with their own stuff, and now those said sims are now progressing and evolving differently.
    I couldn't disagree more, really. Race sims had been quite stagnant for years, using the same tech and moving forward with baby steps (tyre models, graphics, weather etc.). That was slow evolution, but within the same boundaries and constraints. pCARS took a huge leap by introducing a bunch of revolutionary things all at once, a sort of punctuated equilibrium to stir up the slow evolutionary process. And I think it's pretty obvious that the competition has been looking at pCARS and putting the things into their own games that SMS introduced in pCARS.
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  4. #24
    WMD Member cluck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sankyo View Post
    I couldn't disagree more, really. Race sims had been quite stagnant for years, using the same tech and moving forward with baby steps (tyre models, graphics, weather etc.). That was slow evolution, but within the same boundaries and constraints. pCARS took a huge leap by introducing a bunch of revolutionary things all at once, a sort of punctuated equilibrium to stir up the slow evolutionary process. And I think it's pretty obvious that the competition has been looking at pCARS and putting the things into their own games that SMS introduced in pCARS.
    It was the racing-sim world's shakubuku moment

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sankyo View Post
    I couldn't disagree more, really. Race sims had been quite stagnant for years, using the same tech and moving forward with baby steps (tyre models, graphics, weather etc.). That was slow evolution, but within the same boundaries and constraints. pCARS took a huge leap by introducing a bunch of revolutionary things all at once, a sort of punctuated equilibrium to stir up the slow evolutionary process. And I think it's pretty obvious that the competition has been looking at pCARS and putting the things into their own games that SMS introduced in pCARS.
    I disagree.
    DriveClub was the racing game that took a massive leap...same for Beam.NG and Wreckfest, same for Need For Speed Pro Street, Underground and NFS 2015, same for GT6 and GTSPORT, same for the Forza Horizon series, same for iRacing, same for Midnight Club....and DiRT Rally...


    "Race sims had been quite stagnant for years, using the same tech and moving forward with baby steps (tyre models, graphics, weather etc.). That was slow evolution, but within the same boundaries and constraints."
    true but that's because racing sims was a niche market before 2015, and plus funding and tech was limited for some dev's...

    "pCARS took a huge leap by introducing a bunch of revolutionary things all at once"
    DriveClub too also introduced a bunch of things at once...same for Beam.NG which is the pinnacle of mechanical detail for vehicles.

    "And I think it's pretty obvious that the competition has been looking at pCARS and putting the things into their own games that SMS introduced in pCARS."
    soo who exactly? I don't see much that's unique in pCARS though...maybe it's the career mode? maybe the Online Championships...? physics?

    pCARS is a nice game, but it's no king of the castle..


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  6. #26
    Moderator Sankyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    I disagree.
    DriveClub was the racing game that took a massive leap...same for Beam.NG and Wreckfest, same for Need For Speed Pro Street, Underground and NFS 2015, same for GT6 and GTSPORT, same for the Forza Horizon series, same for iRacing, same for Midnight Club....and DiRT Rally...
    You're talking about games offering new types of gameplay. I was talking about race sim elements adding depth to the basis of circuit racing. So we're basically talking two different languages here .


    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    "Race sims had been quite stagnant for years, using the same tech and moving forward with baby steps (tyre models, graphics, weather etc.). That was slow evolution, but within the same boundaries and constraints."
    true but that's because racing sims was a niche market before 2015, and plus funding and tech was limited for some dev's...
    Not sure how that means that you cannot do something revolutionary. Don't forget that pCARS1 was not very well-(crowd-)funded but still had most of the new tech already onboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    "pCARS took a huge leap by introducing a bunch of revolutionary things all at once"
    DriveClub too also introduced a bunch of things at once
    Gameplay or physics/simulation depth-wise?

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    ...same for Beam.NG which is the pinnacle of mechanical detail for vehicles.
    Only regarding vehicle deformation, definitely not for tyre modeling. It's not a racing sim by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    "And I think it's pretty obvious that the competition has been looking at pCARS and putting the things into their own games that SMS introduced in pCARS."
    soo who exactly? I don't see much that's unique in pCARS though...maybe it's the career mode? maybe the Online Championships...? physics?
    To name a few:
    pCARS finally broke through the 'harder-is-better' realism dogma of tyre physics, and other sims followed (though still in baby steps, probably because of their tyre model limitations).
    pCARS introduced fully dynamic weather affecting track conditions and tyre behaviour.

    Again, I'm talking about simulation depth, not gameplay elements. You could argue that the career sandbox mode of pCARS was also novel, but it wasn't everyone's cup of tea obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    pCARS is a nice game, but it's no king of the castle..
    That's a personal opinion
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    I disagree.
    DriveClub was the racing game that took a massive leap...same for Beam.NG and Wreckfest, same for Need For Speed Pro Street, Underground and NFS 2015, same for GT6 and GTSPORT, same for the Forza Horizon series, same for iRacing, same for Midnight Club....and DiRT Rally...
    True, but none of those are considered sims, except for iRacing and maybe Dirt Rally. I don't mean that in a derogatory way but it's important to make this distinction when talking about budgets especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    "Race sims had been quite stagnant for years, using the same tech and moving forward with baby steps (tyre models, graphics, weather etc.). That was slow evolution, but within the same boundaries and constraints."
    true but that's because racing sims was a niche market before 2015, and plus funding and tech was limited for some dev's...
    Racing sims also was (and still is) a niche market after 2015 and SMS still managed to release both PCARS games through building their own tech with limited funding.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    "pCARS took a huge leap by introducing a bunch of revolutionary things all at once"
    DriveClub too also introduced a bunch of things at once...same for Beam.NG which is the pinnacle of mechanical detail for vehicles.
    Yeah, but Evolution Studios had Sony funding so it's not really comparable.
    And Beam.NG's only advantage is its crash physics that can only be shown on non licensed cars.
    Car body deformation in racing sims isn't limited by developer talent or will but by restrictions from car manufacturers.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    "And I think it's pretty obvious that the competition has been looking at pCARS and putting the things into their own games that SMS introduced in pCARS."
    soo who exactly? I don't see much that's unique in pCARS though...maybe it's the career mode? maybe the Online Championships...? physics?
    The FEA based tire model (and its interaction with the braking systems),
    the differential model,
    aerodynamics (cars are very sensitive to ride height, pitch/rake, air density, wind, etc.),
    the combination of Livetrack 3.0 and the weather and day & night cycle.
    The suspension model is very good too but AC already had a great one in 2014 so I'm gonna give them that.

    Some games already had some of those features before, but not all and not to this degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    soo who exactly?
    The best example is ACC.
    You just need to check out their dev blog posts, which sound extremely familiar to SMS dev posts during WMD2.
    90% of what Kunos announced in those was already modelled in PCARS 2 more than a year earlier.
    From the brake heat affecting tire pressures, over aero being extremely sensitive to pitch angle, to the weather system and how rain is simulated on track.

    I don't blame them for taking inspiration from SMS (although they'd never admit it ) and they did a really smart move in implementing it into a "small" (content wise) game first and improving upon it.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXPITVIPER1 View Post
    pCARS is a nice game, but it's no king of the castle..
    I don't think that's what Sankyo wanted to say with his post.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaskarspants View Post
    SMS are leading the way in many areas with live track, variable weather, time of day, seta tyre model, massive car and track list, 600Hz physics update and I am sure there is more, I hope they continue to innovate, not copy.

    It seems to me other Sims are benefiting from copying SMS.
    Yes, in theory this is all fantastic, but most of these (except for the amount of content of course!) do not work correctly in practice, often or not. Like the tire model which in many cases gives better grip to slicks than wets in a wet track. Or the physics update which often drops, causing strange FFB behavior. Or the other well known physics issues we have.

    Possibly the current physics of PCARS2 are indeed the most advanced of all, but needed some calibration and fine tuning which unfortunately never happened, or at least never happened enough. Let's see what the Reiza guys come up with in AMS2, in case they manage to get it right, it will be proof that indeed the potential is there and it will be very promising also for the next PCARS. Let's see, it's only a couple months away...
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  9. #29
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    You all seem to forget that although some games also have all these features,SMS managed to bring those (first) on all major platforms..
    As for the bugs and continuous support,two things: Publisher and budget...
    The publisher is not interested in delays for bug fixing but thinks : "as soon as the game is out we can start making money,let the devs worry about the bugs"...Those devs on the other hand have to fix those bugs on their own dime while little to no money is coming in at that time...so they set a fixed timescale in which bug fixing is still not too straining on the finances.
    Conclusion:Should they have delayed the game there would have been less bugs and those that were left could have been fixed within the set timescale.This would have meant (1)that the publisher would have to continue putting funds into development and (2) the public would have gone mental if another delay would have been announced.

    Pure bussiness,no more,no less but guess who's getting the flack either way? The publisher or the developer?
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  10. #30
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    ... Like the tire model which in many cases gives better grip to slicks than wets in a wet track. Or the physics update which often drops, causing strange FFB behavior. Or the other well known physics issues we have.
    Haven't seen any of that even once on my aged, thrashed ps4. I've done a bunch of full lobby MP races and free practice in bad weather.

    Some of these are well documented problems on the OG Xb1, so is that a hardware weakness issue or a problem with the game?

    All the puddles have no grip, and some kerbs are homicidal. Any other "physics" issue is more than likely a real life phenomenon replicated very well that we don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    Possibly the current physics of PCARS2 are indeed the most advanced of all, but needed some calibration and fine tuning which unfortunately never happened,...
    It happened, via professionals. Not (only) by the opinions of sim racers.
    Have a read - https://www.projectcarsgame.com/one-...roject-cars-2/
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