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Thread: Driver Assists / Aids

  1. #1
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    Driver Assists / Aids

    Hi all, thanks for having me.
    My username is roadgoat1, or, Goat. My comments and thoughts here today are aimed primarily at the manufacturers and marketers of the Pro Cars franchise, and at all other Sim Racing programs in general.
    I struggle with the concept of racing and driving in Sim games that have such an emphasis on the use of Driver Assists. Traditionally, driving and racing was a combination of man and machine. Skill and stamina, raw talent, a comprehensive understanding of the machine and its idiosyncrasies, and consistencies was what made a driver. Being able to use a gearbox was also key. Now, there is an acceptance that automatic gearboxes are okay, traction control, ABS brakes, yaw control, stability control, even steering assist is acceptable. The use of any or all of these aids are in my opinion contributing to the end of drivers as we knew it. The tradition of man vs machine is all but dead. The new school of driving is to make the car drive itself as much as possible, have it correct driver error, and may the kid that's quickest on the controller win!
    I would very much like to see a dedicated scoreboard for drivers of manual gears, no assists. That's no ABS, no traction control, no assists at all. Just back to real skill, real drive-ability, the classic car control that motor racing was founded on. Should we not be encouraging racers to learn a real skill rather than just steering a self-driven car?
    Anyway, just my thoughts, thanks for hearing me out.

  2. #2
    WMD Member cluck's Avatar
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    It's called progress.

    Back when I was running my business I had a chat with an octogenarian customer of mine, complaining that "kids today are so spoiled". He wisely pointed out that they're not, they are simply reaping the spoils of the progress of their parents, as their parents did before them and so on. It's like bemoaning electric vehicles (and boy do I dislike them) but they ARE the future whether we like it or not and the people growing up knowing them will not know any different.

    Tell you what, why not throw tyres into your elitist leaderboard, make everybody run on radial tyres. After all, slick tyres just give you more grip and take away some of the skill

    In case it wasn't obvious, I'm not a fan of your elitist leaderboard idea at all.
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  3. #3
    Superkart Pilot Twinz's Avatar
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    Time Trial doesn't allow things like ABS on cars that don't have such features in real life. And it penalizes drivers who use automatic clutches/gears with delays in shift times.

    I also don't think you've considered all the "assists" people still use in real cars...when they think the assists are turned off. We would look like a bunch of bus drivers making multiple rotations of the steering wheel at every tight turn with no power steering. You probably haven't tried stopping a car with no vacuum servo or brake boost assist either.

    There's no option to disable this stuff on real cars and disabling ABS requires you to pull a fuse on most cars. (This often messes up other functions since so many systems are interconnected on modern cars)

    Limiting cars to real assists seems far more reasonable to me. And allowing people without fancy sim equipment to post times with slowed-down automatic shifting and such is fine with me too.
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    Sarcasm, really? Fella, you used the term "Elitist", not me, i'm just talking about leveling things out for those that don't use aids. By the way, i grew up driving on Radial Cross-ply tyres, and we often race on whatever different tyres are available for the car that we are driving because it's a challenge.

  5. #5
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    Many of the older cars on Pro Cars had no such aids "in real life". Time trials allow all cars to use traction and ABS. Automatic clutch and paddle shift is quicker that gearshift and manual clutch, but i wasn't talking about that, i said automatic gearbox,, not auto clutch and paddles. Power steering doesn't affect steering wheel rotation, it makes it easier to turn the steering wheel. Yes, i have driven many vehicles, both cars and heavy vehicles, with purely hydraulic drum brakes with no abs or "servo Units" or brake boosters, i am an old man that grew up in an era when those things were still being developed. And fancy sim equipment? You are making some real assumptions.

  6. #6
    GT4 Pilot Zaskarspants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadgoat1 View Post
    Hi all, thanks for having me.
    My username is roadgoat1, or, Goat. My comments and thoughts here today are aimed primarily at the manufacturers and marketers of the Pro Cars franchise, and at all other Sim Racing programs in general.
    I struggle with the concept of racing and driving in Sim games that have such an emphasis on the use of Driver Assists. Traditionally, driving and racing was a combination of man and machine. Skill and stamina, raw talent, a comprehensive understanding of the machine and its idiosyncrasies, and consistencies was what made a driver. Being able to use a gearbox was also key. Now, there is an acceptance that automatic gearboxes are okay, traction control, ABS brakes, yaw control, stability control, even steering assist is acceptable. The use of any or all of these aids are in my opinion contributing to the end of drivers as we knew it. The tradition of man vs machine is all but dead. The new school of driving is to make the car drive itself as much as possible, have it correct driver error, and may the kid that's quickest on the controller win!
    I would very much like to see a dedicated scoreboard for drivers of manual gears, no assists. That's no ABS, no traction control, no assists at all. Just back to real skill, real drive-ability, the classic car control that motor racing was founded on. Should we not be encouraging racers to learn a real skill rather than just steering a self-driven car?
    Anyway, just my thoughts, thanks for hearing me out.
    Nearly all the assists in pcars, except abs, will slow down an experienced driver so there isn't really any need for a " no assists" time trial competition. They are there to help the improving driver to enjoy the game.
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  7. #7
    Superkart Pilot Twinz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadgoat1 View Post
    Many of the older cars on Pro Cars had no such aids "in real life". Time trials allow all cars to use traction and ABS.
    No, TT doesn't allow all cars to use traction control and ABS. *update* -Just did TT with the Formula Rookie. I enabled ABS in the options menu...but had no ABS when actually running TT. It didn't show in the hud, and the tires clearly locked up on command and slid forever.

    Automatic clutch and paddle shift is quicker that gearshift and manual clutch, but i wasn't talking about that, i said automatic gearbox,, not auto clutch and paddles.
    Not for me. I went through this when I was having issues with the cable for my shifter. I was noticably slower with automatic clutch. (I was able to go back and beat my previous ghost on straights, just running through gears, once I got my shifter sorted and went back to manual clutch.)

    Power steering doesn't affect steering wheel rotation, it makes it easier to turn the steering wheel. Yes, i have driven many vehicles, both cars and heavy vehicles, with purely hydraulic drum brakes with no abs or "servo Units" or brake boosters, i am an old man that grew up in an era when those things were still being developed. And fancy sim equipment? You are making some real assumptions.
    You can't have quick steering ratios *and* no power steering. In order to ensure that average men and women can turn the steering wheel without undue strain, slower stering ratios got used in the absence of power steering. My GT86 would need a steering ratio similar to my 1968 Galaxy...and I would look like a bus driver trying to turn that thing...or...need Olympian strength to turn the wheel with a tight ratio and no PS.

    And you aren't demanding that power steering be disabled. That is a driver aid.
    Last edited by Twinz; 17-07-2020 at 15:24.
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  8. #8
    WMD Member cluck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadgoat1 View Post
    Sarcasm, really? Fella, you used the term "Elitist", not me, i'm just talking about leveling things out for those that don't use aids. By the way, i grew up driving on Radial Cross-ply tyres, and we often race on whatever different tyres are available for the car that we are driving because it's a challenge.
    Yes, sarcasm. Mostly because posts like yours have come up in the past and have generally been along the lines of "anybody needing driver assists can't actually drive properly". If that's not the case, then I apologise but I was going on past behaviour from lots of other people in the sim community.

    Anyway, the leaderboards show which assists have been used, so if you want to see if you're the fastest without any assists, you can see that in the leaderboard.

    One thing you can't factor in is that a lot of the cars in game have multiple tyre choices and the default isn't always period accurate. For example, the Lotus 49 doesn't use period-correct tyres by default, you have to select them. Similarly, the road cars don't use road tyres unless you select 'OEM' setup (if it's available for that car). As such, a time trial is only going to show that a default or custom setup was used, it won't show you the exact detail of the setup and/or tyres that were in use (though you can find out if you can load the ghost for the time). The leaderboard system isn't going to change from its current setup so, unfortunately, what you're looking for isn't going to happen - in pCARS2 at least, I'm not sure what the exact plans are for pcars3.


    EDIT: Oh and by the way, I'm no spring chicken myself. My first car was a Vauxhall Viva Estate, followed by a Triumph Dolomite. I currently own a car with a flappy-paddle gearbox and one thing I desperately miss is being able to blip the throttle on downshifts. Sure, the car does it for me, but I've spent over 30 years doing it myself. That said, I wouldn't have the manual version of my car even if they made it (it was phased out for the '21 model)
    Last edited by cluck; 17-07-2020 at 15:17.
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  9. #9
    LMP2 Pilot hkraft300's Avatar
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    Assists are just assists.
    I think posts or sentiments like these would be limited if people knew what they are and how they work.
    Besides, as far as assists go, where do you draw the line?
    Rev limiter is an assist. Power steering. Brake boosters. What about shift lights? VR? Triple screen?
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