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Thread: The Project CARS 3 reviews thread

  1. #571
    GT3 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Takes him a while to get to the point, but when he does, he's spot on. Even comparing the community from 2010-2012, when I started getting into it, to the state of it now, the change is crazy. It's so toxic now. And it's having a negative effect on the genre. The community seems set to eat itself, if it doesn't improve. We'll still be racing AM2 and ACC ten years from now, because no new Devs want to subject themselves to the abuse.

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  2. #572
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiden View Post
    Takes him a while to get to the point, but when he does, he's spot on. Even comparing the community from 2010-2012, when I started getting into it, to the state of it now, the change is crazy. It's so toxic now. And it's having a negative effect on the genre. The community seems set to eat itself, if it doesn't improve. We'll still be racing AM2 and ACC ten years from now, because no new Devs want to subject themselves to the abuse.

    Funny thing is I wanted to post this yesterday. I can only agree with him. I've been with the whole Simbin adventure from the start(so GTR 2002 and the SBDT forum), and it's like a part of the community is starting to take a big chunk of fun and maybe even innocence out of something that should be a hobby and fun.. Not only for little old me, but apparently YouTubers(got to race William a few times on his stream, very nice guy) and even more for the developers. The fact that the last two groups have received threats (already during PC2 times) is something I can't find forum friendly words for.

    And I agree (and actually stated it here) there could be truth in the thought that part of the reason PC3 exists is the way some people in the community behaved(including scaring the devs away from their own freaking forum). Once you reach that point how can you expect them to still want to cater to the needs of that group?
    Last edited by MaximusN; 15-09-2020 at 20:51.
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  3. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    Funny thing is I wanted to post this yesterday. I can only agree with him. I've been with the whole Simbin adventure from the start(so GTR 2002 and the SBDT forum), and it's like a part of the community is starting to take a big chunk of fun and maybe even innocence out of something that should be a hobby and fun.. Not only for little old me, but apparently YouTubers(got to race William a few times on his stream, very nice guy) and even more for the developers. The fact that the last two groups have received threats (already during PC2 times) is something I can't find forum friendly words for.

    And I agree (and actually stated it here) there could be truth in the thought that part of the reason PC3 exists is the way some people in the community behaved(including scaring the devs away from their own freaking forum). Once you reach that point how can you expect them to still want to cater to the needs of that group?
    Do you really believe it is possible to scare away someone form their own forum? I run a forum for my product and I would never let that happen, because I need the forum for my customers. If people start abusing it, I will first warn them, and if they insist, I will remove them, it is that simple.

    But of course I am not just having a product and that's it, but I am also updating and fixing it based on users reports and suggestions, that's part of the reason why there's a forum. On the other hand, SMS did very little to fix the problems in PCARS2, and then completely stopped any updates, after the 12 months DLC release period. Maybe this has something to do with them abandoning also this forum, instead of being "scared away"?

  4. #574
    GT3 Pilot Haiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpcdem View Post
    Do you really believe it is possible to scare away someone form their own forum? I run a forum for my product and I would never let that happen, because I need the forum for my customers. If people start abusing it, I will first warn them, and if they insist, I will remove them, it is that simple.

    But of course I am not just having a product and that's it, but I am also updating and fixing it based on users reports and suggestions, that's part of the reason why there's a forum. On the other hand, SMS did very little to fix the problems in PCARS2, and then completely stopped any updates, after the 12 months DLC release period. Maybe this has something to do with them abandoning also this forum, instead of being "scared away"?
    That's the key difference that sim racers didn't realize. There came a point for SMS where they didn't really "need" customers, at least not the direct level sim racers. There was more long term value/potential in the licensing the engine and letting other studios deal with the end users in what was becoming an increasingly hostile environment....LOL.
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  5. #575
    GT5 Pilot Sum Dixon-Ear's Avatar
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    What a bizarre video.

    He calls for sim racers to be tolerant of each others' games/personal preferences etc and pull together as one and just love our shared hobby... yet still can't help himself from singleing out SMS and pC3 for criticism. That's precisely a huge part of the problem right there mate.

    Then to praise a man who unashamedly treated him like dirt and said things that he should hang his head in shame for.. someone more responsible than most for the elitism and nastiness that now exists in the sim-racing 'community'?

    What a bizarre video.
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  6. #576
    WMD Member MaximusN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sum Dixon-Ear View Post
    What a bizarre video.

    He calls for sim racers to be tolerant of each others' games/personal preferences etc and pull together as one and just love our shared hobby... yet still can't help himself from singleing out SMS and pC3 for criticism. That's precisely a huge part of the problem right there mate.

    Then to praise a man who unashamedly treated him like dirt and said things that he should hang his head in shame for.. someone more responsible than most for the elitism and nastiness that now exists in the sim-racing 'community'?

    What a bizarre video.
    Yeah he doesn't really like it (in the way he likes PC2) as for now (he already did a playtest too), but he is planning to come back to it and do a new video on it(if he can still find the energy that is). IMHO he has a right not to be 100% on-board, everyone has. Criticism is not the problem, bullying and abuse is the problem. Some people going as far as something that is a criminal offense(in PC2 times already as a matter of fact). Or threatening to harm the livelyhood(YouTube channel) of people who dare to be positive.

    That doesn't exactly create a healthy creative environment. Or in fact maybe not even a healthy financial environment(don't forget that BN had a big say in this too). I don't think it would take me more than 1 minute to decide if I'd want to cater to them ever again.

    Say all you want but this kind of statement is worth more from someone who you could call at least on the fence about PC3.
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  7. #577
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    This is not unique to sim racing or even racers. BioWare closed their forums down (Now, that place was toxic asf). Death threats, threats to employee families (not just devs, voice actors, writers etc etc). Ir all began with Mass Effect 2. Folk complaining it was more Gears of War than Mass Effect 1. Strangely enough, it's now held up as the pinnacle of the Mass Effect series. Bethesda devs more or less ceased all direct communication with fans on their forums after Fallout 3. That was beyond toxic too. Most recent example, The Last of Us 2. Folk bitter because one of the main characters wasn't your stereotypical female. My point is, the list of examples are endless. It's what many gamers do and how they will continue to act.

    In years gone by, the only communication you saw from devs was if you happened to pick up a magazine from a shop shelf. There was no meeting of minds from like minded people who loved to spew nothing but toxicity. Now everyone has a voice.

    What many people fail to realise, games evolve and when they do, they inevitably leave a selection of gamers behind. The initial reaction is never good, but the vast majority of those people get bored and do move on. There's 1001 other games to be getting on with. Plus, some people are acting as if PC1 and 2 no longer exist. It's truly bizarre.

    I don't think devs should be beyond reproach. If any business is taking folks hard earned, then yeah, consumers do deserve a voice whether it be negative or positive. I actually think negativity can be a good thing. If people were only allowed to post positive feedback, games would suffer greatly. Nothing would change, but there is a way to post negative criticism but many people struggle with how best to post constructive criticism. That isn't just unique to gaming, it happens in all sectors of media etc. Flip side of the coin, I have seen devs and publishers shut down constructive criticism and to me personally, that's worse than any ranting gamer. I get people don't like to hear their work is considered subpar, but you learn nothing from your mistakes regardless of the work you're doing if you're unwilling to listen to the negative feedback.

    A good example of of devs listening to constructive criticism is Ubisoft. Their Assassin's Creed franchise was dying on its ass not so long ago. People were speaking, Ubisoft weren't listening so in the end their sales began to nosedive. After an obvious rethink, they listened and their last 2 outings have been fantastic. They really do deserve credit for admitting they were wrong and changing their approach.
    Last edited by DrBawbag; 16-09-2020 at 09:24.
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  8. #578
    GT5 Pilot Sum Dixon-Ear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusN View Post
    Yeah he doesn't really like it (in the way he likes PC2) as for now (he already did a playtest too), but he is planning to come back to it and do a new video on it(if he can still find the energy that is). IMHO he has a right not to be 100% on-board, everyone has. Criticism is not the problem, bullying and abuse is the problem. Some people going as far as something that is a criminal offense(in PC2 times already as a matter of fact). Or threatening to harm the livelyhood(YouTube channel) of people who dare to be positive.

    That doesn't exactly create a healthy creative environment. Or in fact maybe not even a healthy financial environment(don't forget that BN had a big say in this too). I don't think it would take me more than 1 minute to decide if I'd want to cater to them ever again.

    Say all you want but this kind of statement is worth more from someone who you could call at least on the fence about PC3.

    I agree with his sentiments, and that criticism is not a problem.. in fact, I think, it's essential. It's the manner in which criticism, disappointment or other concerns are conveyed by some that is the issue.

    I just don't think that this particular video was the appropriate place to insert a cheap dig like "Project CARS 3 sucks"... that, to me, invalidated a lot of what he was saying. He may not like it, while others do... to claim that a title which is trying to bring fresh players to the genre merely 'sucks' sounds very much like the issues which, in part, he is trying to address.

    I don't think it 'sucks', yes it has quite a few issues... but I think it's a great racing game and a brilliant addition to the genre, warts and all. I know that goes against the common consensus and, because of that, I too have had my fair share of abuse, criticism and belittling because I dare to like the game.

    Why sim-racers feel the need to pigeonhole themselves and create divisions is unhealthy and beyond my comprehension to be honest.
    Last edited by Sum Dixon-Ear; 16-09-2020 at 12:55. Reason: Cos I'm thick
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  9. #579
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    In the light of absence of devs on this forum the question whether you think if it is possible to scare away devs from their own forum is... interesting.

    Edit: it's like asking someone in an email whether they think if it's possible to exchange data at the speed of light.
    Last edited by rich1e I; 16-09-2020 at 12:41.
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  10. #580
    GT5 Pilot Sum Dixon-Ear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich1e I View Post
    In the light of absence of devs on this forum the question whether you think if it is possible to scare away devs from their own forum is... interesting.
    I very much doubt that they have been 'scared away'... probably just sick to death of their hard work, their passion to bring us sim racing titles, being endlessly derided, nit-picked and scoffed at.

    If it were me, I wouldn't come here either... I wouldn't need all that negativity in my professional life and seeing my efforts being treated with disdain and ridicule by some.

    We should be grateful for every title that comes our way.. but no, just endless criticism, whataboutery and selfishness.

    That's why we can't have nice things.
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