View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
gotdirt410sprintcar
22-04-2016, 20:35
Well i delete game and re installed it... i Didn't lose career only had too download add on's FFB does feel different from last night
l
You dont get it because your special... your always special and different:D...Go back and read some of your post you may just realize how truely special and different you really are:stupid: ijs :victorious::tongue-new::applause:
Seriously? What is your issue? Maybe you should go back and read some yours. You're the one with the seemingly supernatural like tactile memory. Most people can't remember their FFB feel from day to day or session to session. Not you, though. You're able to know you have the "exact same feel" as version 6.0 even though that was like six months ago. Now that's special. I'll never be that awesome. :stupid:
GrimeyDog
22-04-2016, 20:40
:rolleyes:
gotdirt410sprintcar
22-04-2016, 21:37
I have a question on pc you have the hud dont know what its called. But you can adjust spring stenghth etc and is there linkage settings ? The reason i ask this we can't use that stuff but could linkage scale and body stiffness be those missing parts. I know the first time i did a firmware update i looked at the settings they where all at 100 body stiffness on all cars are 100. But most DLC is now 0.01 reason probably make it easy to use instead of starting at 100. Which way you go? And linkage has always been 1.00 is that 100. Just wondering.
STILL PLAYING WITH BODY SCALE WITH JS CLASSIC LOL
I have a question on pc you have the hud dont know what its called. But you can adjust spring stenghth etc and is there linkage settings ? The reason i ask this we can't use that stuff but could linkage scale and body stiffness be those missing parts. I know the first time i did a firmware update i looked at the settings they where all at 100 body stiffness on all cars are 100. But most DLC is now 0.01 reason probably make it easy to use instead of starting at 100. Which way you go? And linkage has always been 1.00 is that 100. Just wondering.
STILL PLAYING WITH BODY SCALE WITH JS CLASSIC LOL
you are using jacks car settings?
gotdirt410sprintcar
22-04-2016, 23:24
Yes adding BODY SCALE stuff using your scoops... The only thing i get that stay straight won't turn KTM i had FX Smoothing at 30 helped it
On a side note. Lets play nice guys and not turn this into other forums.:encouragement:
Yes adding BODY SCALE stuff using your scoops
Didn't you say you have tf at 100 and gain at 1.0? I just went back and checked your post and you do. You have to be getting clipping with those both set that high and using his classic settings. Set tf at 75 and leave sg at 1.0. That why you are getting those spikes in the ffb . Just turn the ffb master up a few to compensate. Yes I know it feels worse at first because some ffb effects aren't as strong but the little details like tire scrub and tire slip/understeer get better. If youre using my scoops id try all my settings and see what happens. Your really close anyways I think that's why you have to run the rac and rag lower because you have tf cranked up.
gotdirt410sprintcar
22-04-2016, 23:30
Didn't you say you have tf at 100 and gain at 1.0?
All jacks stuff just tweeking in car settings if i need to
If you get the wheel nailed down his work really well as they are at least for me. The only thing I try sometimes is turning down the smoothing .
Dirt Rally will be a Great Game once they Patch the FFB.
Rally X FFB has Grinding in it and the the other Modes FFB is Very Weak but FFB effects can be Clearly felt... When I turn up the Steering Centering force above 65 its way over powered and drowns out all other forces and makes counter steering Not Good.... Shrugggs why Must we go through this... when will they ever release a Game thats Ready and Glitch free.
Dirt rally ffb in rally feels great when you get the settings right , try these
SAT 95
WF 0
TF 75
SUS 75
TS 0
ENG 0
COLL 100
SL 0
SCF 0
And just adjust SAT up for tarmac to 120 and back to 80 for AWD's on gravel . SAT is the only thing that needs adjusting and use the 10 different saves spots for your different types of feel .
Rally x definitely needs work and i hope Codemasters hurry up with a patch !
gotdirt410sprintcar
23-04-2016, 00:35
If you get the wheel nailed down his work really well as they are at least for me. The only thing I try sometimes is turning down the smoothing .
I'm running his RA's your scoops TF at 75 SG 1.15 gets to adout a quarter inch from top of meter it feels great. Only global setting i been playing with is linkage scale's it seems you get a pull when its on, past 1.20 there is nothing no force
So i matched to the bleed 0.10 . I know i'm sticking to the body stuff just testing things but i'm good i think everything can be used or should be used or the chain gets messed up IMO. On console anyway if you look at JS tweekers dont he do something to those scales/ tweeker?
It must be the same thing as the PC version, when you go into the garage the GPU goes up to 99%.
If the PS4 does similar then the fans would probably run at max speed to try and cool things down.
Why does a tuning screen with no graphical load make the GPU run at 99% ? Is there something SMS can do to further optimize this ?
While playing with a full grid and rain on my ps4 fan is more quiet than in tuning a car !
If you get the wheel nailed down his work really well as they are at least for me. The only thing I try sometimes is turning down the smoothing .
Jack mentioned something about smoothing. IIRC, he said it's not needed for most cars. I can't remember why he said he included it. Might have been something about the difference between PC and consoles. Again, not sure about the reason, but I'm pretty sure he said he wasn't using it, except for maybe a few special case cars that needed it. I haven't tried all the cars in the garage, but so far, I haven't found one that needed it. I would try no smoothing first, and then only bring it back in as needed.
gotdirt410sprintcar
23-04-2016, 02:38
Morpwr I gave you those to test you should jump in a super kart and try it. You will see what it does at 0.01 body scale 110 pounds all over the place add 6.01 4gs 110 pounds fixes it. the kart can pull three in half to four gs under braking I think body stiffness goes like this.
Car weight divide by body weight. kart is 451 divide by body 50kg/ 110 pounds issss 4.1 in game 4.01 body stiffness and damping and body longitudinal 50 match fx every time
Jack mentioned something about smoothing. IIRC, he said it's not needed for most cars. I can't remember why he said he included it. Might have been something about the difference between PC and consoles. Again, not sure about the reason, but I'm pretty sure he said he wasn't using it, except for maybe a few special case cars that needed it. I haven't tried all the cars in the garage, but so far, I haven't found one that needed it. I would try no smoothing first, and then only bring it back in as needed.
From what I remember he said it was because it was too much work to check every car so he just put it all of them. I get that from the amount of time it would take to check every car.
Morpwr I gave you those to test you should jump in a super kart and try it. You will see what it does at 0.01 body scale 110 pounds all over the place add 6.01 4gs 110 pounds fixes it. the kart can pull three in half to four gs under braking I think body stiffness goes like this.
Car weight divide by body weight. kart is 451 divide by body 50kg/ 110 pounds issss 4.1 in game 4.01 body stiffness and damping and body longitudinal 50 match fx every time
Ill give it a shot tomorrow. Ive played with this some but all I got from it was a weird pull in the wheel that didn't belong. I know jack said not to bother with them. I don't remember the exact reason why.
I'm running his RA's your scoops TF at 75 SG 1.15 gets to adout a quarter inch from top of meter it feels great. Only global setting i been playing with is linkage scale's it seems you get a pull when its on, past 1.20 there is nothing no force
So i matched to the bleed 0.10 . I know i'm sticking to the body stuff just testing things but i'm good i think everything can be used or should be used or the chain gets messed up IMO. On console anyway if you look at JS tweekers dont he do something to those scales/ tweeker?
So you have rac at ,85 and rag at 1.50? Linkage scale I played with too and ended up just leaving it alone. I know jack mentioned something a while ago about the exact opposite. As far as I know he doesn't do anything with any of those just the actual car ffb. They may add some effects but I think they will wind up being like sop feels to me. Just an added force that feels out of place. But ive been wrong before.
Jack Spade
23-04-2016, 06:56
To clarify....
1. I use smoothing on all cars as a precaution. There are several cars where Mz and Fx has a spin-off force "grinding". On Mz itīs more or less a slow speed issue,
in other words you wonīt notice when youīre fast. It would have been a time consuming process to check out each and every car in order to find the issue, so I
decided for an easy solution which "Notepad++" offers working with text files - same value on all cars at once. My advice, take it off the car you indent to
drive.
2. Body and Arm Scale add on top of the important stuff that is directly derived from physics and covers up this information and add weight which causes clipping.
Itīs already there in the car/tire physics you need to know about the car, it doesnīt add new information by forcing the wheel up/down or back/forth or whatever.
gotdirt410sprintcar
23-04-2016, 09:56
Ok but you sure can't drive that kart with out body scale added and I expect wheel weight under braking I feel lock up wheel goes light.
And I'm faster I'm 19th on the board at the Glen in the street radical never driven it but one time oh and its stock body scale added. Added body stuff to the ruf Gt3 at the Glen first time out I run a 1.07.356 I'm faster. And i cant say FX and body longitudinal scale have to be the same.
How am i clipping TF 75 1.50 gain clamp 75 SG 1.15 in game FFB 38 on a T500 ? probably should put clamp to 85
Ok but you sure can't drive that kart with out body scale added and I expect wheel weight under braking I feel lock up wheel goes light.
And I'm faster I'm 19th on the board at the Glen in the street radical never driven it but one time oh and its stock body scale added. Added body stuff to the ruf Gt3 at the Glen first time out I run a 1.07.356 I'm faster. And i cant say FX and body longitudinal scale have to be the same.
How am i clipping TF 75 1.50 gain clamp 75 SG 1.15 in game FFB 38 on a T500 ?
Lower SG just a tad, and move game FFB up just a bit. Should help.
To clarify....
1. I use smoothing on all cars as a precaution. There are several cars where Mz and Fx has a spin-off force "grinding". On Mz itīs more or less a slow speed issue,
in other words you wonīt notice when youīre fast. It would have been a time consuming process to check out each and every car in order to find the issue, so I
decided for an easy solution which "Notepad++" offers working with text files - same value on all cars at once. My advice, take it off the car you indent to
drive.
Set <value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0"/> only or FxLoPass also ?
GrimeyDog
23-04-2016, 12:07
Morpwr I gave you those to test you should jump in a super kart and try it. You will see what it does at 0.01 body scale 110 pounds all over the place add 6.01 4gs 110 pounds fixes it. the kart can pull three in half to four gs under braking I think body stiffness goes like this.
Car weight divide by body weight. kart is 451 divide by body 50kg/ 110 pounds issss 4.1 in game 4.01 body stiffness and damping and body longitudinal 50 match fx every time
That Super Kart is Fast!!! It Laps on Par with LMP1 cars on alot of tracks...
GrimeyDog
23-04-2016, 12:19
Ok but you sure can't drive that kart with out body scale added and I expect wheel weight under braking I feel lock up wheel goes light.
And I'm faster I'm 19th on the board at the Glen in the street radical never driven it but one time oh and its stock body scale added. Added body stuff to the ruf Gt3 at the Glen first time out I run a 1.07.356 I'm faster. And i cant say FX and body longitudinal scale have to be the same.
How am i clipping TF 75 1.50 gain clamp 75 SG 1.15 in game FFB 38 on a T500 ? probably should put clamp to 85
That Super Kart on the Glen with Stock car set up almost gets Sub 1 min times!!! I got ot down to a 1:00.3ŨŨ With my Nornal every car Tweek Settings.... I may have saved the Video clip of that because I was quite impressed with that kart... It Drove, Handled and was 10Ũ Faster than i thought it would be.
Titzon Toast
23-04-2016, 13:21
On a side note. Lets play nice guys and not turn this into other forums.:encouragement:
F##k that.
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT...
Jack Spade
23-04-2016, 13:49
Ok but you sure can't drive that kart with out body scale added and I expect wheel weight under braking I feel lock up wheel goes light.
And I'm faster I'm 19th on the board at the Glen in the street radical never driven it but one time oh and its stock body scale added. Added body stuff to the ruf Gt3 at the Glen first time out I run a 1.07.356 I'm faster. And i cant say FX and body longitudinal scale have to be the same.
How am i clipping TF 75 1.50 gain clamp 75 SG 1.15 in game FFB 38 on a T500 ? probably should put clamp to 85
Body/Arm Scale is not affected by TF itīs a different bus but adds force to the global output.
Development of Karts in pCARS are more or less small cars rather than Karts, maybe in pCARS 2 body/arm makes sense then. BTW wheel weight
under braking comes from Mz (self aligning torque), weight transfer to the front. Fx just adds rumble under heavy braking (if youīre lucky) thereīs
never an ongoing force from it.
Ok but you sure can't drive that kart with out body scale added and I expect wheel weight under braking I feel lock up wheel goes light.
And I'm faster I'm 19th on the board at the Glen in the street radical never driven it but one time oh and its stock body scale added. Added body stuff to the ruf Gt3 at the Glen first time out I run a 1.07.356 I'm faster. And i cant say FX and body longitudinal scale have to be the same.
How am i clipping TF 75 1.50 gain clamp 75 SG 1.15 in game FFB 38 on a T500 ? probably should put clamp to 85
That's probably why rac at 75 is probably too light and youre loosing some of the feel. You may need to drop the master a click or two after though to get the same wheel weight. I agree with poirqc too lower sg a little. It will feel worse at first because bumps/ the paint stripe at the glen wont be as strong but the detail will be better.
Jack Spade
23-04-2016, 14:09
Lower SG just a tad, and move game FFB up just a bit. Should help.
Set <value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0"/> only or FxLoPass also ?
Though the force of Fx is not really that important in the mix but prone to the "grinding" spin-off. SMS default FFB always had FxLowPass (smoothing) activated.
If thereīs no Mz grinding when MzLoPass is set at 0.0 try FxLowPass at 0.0 as well.
That's probably why rac at 75 is probably too light and youre loosing some of the feel. You may need to drop the master a click or two after though to get the same wheel weight. I agree with poirqc too lower sg a little. It will feel worse at first because bumps/ the paint stripe at the glen wont be as strong but the detail will be better.
^^This. It took me a while to get used to it, because my previous tune was more saturated, and the new weight felt off. I had been running SG at 1.45, but then started experimenting with lower settings after reading a comment from Morpwr. Because I was used to the higher saturation, I had to slowly lower SG over the course of about a week of testing (1.35, 1.25, 1.15, etc.) I settled on 1.10. After you run with it lower for a while, you'll be able to see what's missing when you go back to the higher, more saturated settings. Suggestion: Try lowering it at the start of your gaming time each day (that's why it took me week). You don't notice the lighter feel as much when it's the first feel you come to. If you run for a while with your normal settings, and then switch, it'll feel off.
^^This. It took me a while to get used to it, because my previous tune was more saturated, and the new weight felt off. I had been running SG at 1.45, but then started experimenting with lower settings after reading a comment from Morpwr. Because I was used to the higher saturation, I had to slowly lower SG over the course of about a week of testing (1.35, 1.25, 1.15, etc.) I settled on 1.10. After you run with it lower for a while, you'll be able to see what's missing when you go back to the higher, more saturated settings. Suggestion: Try lowering it at the start of your gaming time each day (that's why it took me week). You don't notice the lighter feel as much when it's the first feel you come to. If you run for a while with your normal settings, and then switch, it'll feel off.
Same here Haiden it took me a few times to understand what was going on. I kept thinking it wasn't as strong and kept switching back to the higher sg setting until I figured out what was actually happening. I knew I liked it lower but didn't know exactly why until I used it for a few nights and realized how much more I could feel. Maybe with the csw you can get away with a higher sg but even going to 1.05 on the t300 you gain more weight than actual feel so your better off turning up the master at the end if you want it stronger.
tennenbaum
24-04-2016, 05:26
Same here Haiden it took me a few times to understand what was going on. I kept thinking it wasn't as strong and kept switching back to the higher sg setting until I figured out what was actually happening. I knew I liked it lower but didn't know exactly why until I used it for a few nights and realized how much more I could feel. Maybe with the csw you can get away with a higher sg but even going to 1.05 on the t300 you gain more weight than actual feel so your better off turning up the master at the end if you want it stronger.
If lowering SG changes the feel (lower SG from e.g. 1,45 to 1.00) towards more nuances, while compensating strength of the wheel (weight) with higher FFB, the conclusion must be, that SG is not a linear operator. thus SG changing the I/O curve shape !!??.
spacepadrille
24-04-2016, 09:09
After playing a lot to Dirt Rally (what a game !), I came back to PCars... I started with the cars we can drive in both games (E.G. Sierra Cosworth, BMW M3E30), on the road circuit on Bannochbrae. The difference is huge, PCar FFB is better, but this experience let me see that two parameters were too high and feeling non natural in my PCar's FFB. SG and steering sensitivity.
My SG was 1.05 and now is back to 1.00
For the sensitivity, it's true that a value around 80 helps a lot taking curves, but finally (I mean when you go back to this game after Dirt) it feels "non natural" and too much responsive at so high level. I'm now somewhere between 60 and 70
I run Morpwr's tweak with minor changes and JS classic
If lowering SG changes the feel (lower SG from e.g. 1,45 to 1.00) towards more nuances, while compensating strength of the wheel (weight) with higher FFB, the conclusion must be, that SG is not a linear operator. thus SG changing the I/O curve shape !!??.
Not sure about the linearity, but I've always assumed the loss of details was because the higher SG saturates the feedback, masking the other forces.
After playing a lot to Dirt Rally (what a game !), I came back to PCars... I started with the cars we can drive in both games (E.G. Sierra Cosworth, BMW M3E30), on the road circuit on Bannochbrae. The difference is huge, PCar FFB is better, but this experience let me see that two parameters were too high and feeling non natural in my PCar's FFB. SG and steering sensitivity.
My SG was 1.05 and now is back to 1.00
For the sensitivity, it's true that a value around 80 helps a lot taking curves, but finally (I mean when you go back to this game after Dirt) it feels "non natural" and too much responsive at so high level. I'm now somewhere between 60 and 70
I run Morpwr's tweak with minor changes and JS classic
After the comments yesterday, I went ahead and lowered mine from 1.10 to 1.00. I couldn't drive with 1.00 before, because I was coming down from 1.45. But now it feels fine. Not sure if there's more detail than 1.10, but I haven't had a chance to try it with my normal tuning car, where changes are easier for me to spot, due to familiarity.
I run steering sensitivity at 60, as well. That felt best to me overall. 80 felt fine on some cars, but was too twitchy on the open wheelers, so I was never able to use set it that high.
Jack Spade
24-04-2016, 14:42
Not sure about the linearity, but I've always assumed the loss of details was because the higher SG saturates the feedback, masking the other forces.
After the comments yesterday, I went ahead and lowered mine from 1.10 to 1.00. I couldn't drive with 1.00 before, because I was coming down from 1.45. But now it feels fine. Not sure if there's more detail than 1.10, but I haven't had a chance to try it with my normal tuning car, where changes are easier for me to spot, due to familiarity.
I run steering sensitivity at 60, as well. That felt best to me overall. 80 felt fine on some cars, but was too twitchy on the open wheelers, so I was never able to use set it that high.
FFB amplification with SG (or FOR on the CSW v2) hereīs the link to skoaderīs finding concerning linearity .
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controller-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1182729&viewfull=1#post1182729
If lowering SG changes the feel (lower SG from e.g. 1,45 to 1.00) towards more nuances, while compensating strength of the wheel (weight) with higher FFB, the conclusion must be, that SG is not a linear operator. thus SG changing the I/O curve shape !!??.
I don't know if it is nonlinear or not but it seems that it adds alot of weight to the wheel while making things only slightly stronger for ffb. It actually feels very similar to me as adjusting tf but sg seems like a much bigger jump where tf seems very fine in the adjustment. Even though we know because of where they are in the chain reversing them doesn't give you the same results. Maybe because we are so close to saturation already trying to get all we can out of the ffb that any extra sg just turns into wheel weight with no added benefit. I tried playing with rac not to long ago just to see and nothing helped lower less feel higher just more weight. Thats why I stopped playing with the numbers I cant find anything that's improves the feeling at this point.
Not sure about the linearity, but I've always assumed the loss of details was because the higher SG saturates the feedback, masking the other forces.
After the comments yesterday, I went ahead and lowered mine from 1.10 to 1.00. I couldn't drive with 1.00 before, because I was coming down from 1.45. But now it feels fine. Not sure if there's more detail than 1.10, but I haven't had a chance to try it with my normal tuning car, where changes are easier for me to spot, due to familiarity.
Haiden,
What I found was even a little over 1.0 just added weight with no benefit. You may have to bump the ffb master a couple to compensate but I'm sure you knew that.lol The small details seemed much clearer to me but will take a little getting use to like you said. It just feels odd because your brain says it isn't as strong so it must be wrong. But after I gave it a couple nights I was like yeah this is it. I'm done tweaking.
I run steering sensitivity at 60, as well. That felt best to me overall. 80 felt fine on some cars, but was too twitchy on the open wheelers, so I was never able to use set it that high.
Ill have to go back and play with sensitivity again guys. Ive been turning the steering ratio to about 9 for most cars and really like that even with the sensitivity at 90. Like fight -test aim small. Works for me anyways.
gotdirt410sprintcar
24-04-2016, 15:57
90 is crazy high you mise well add wheel so the wheel is not every where I think 45-55 is good
Ill have to go back and play with sensitivity again guys. Ive been turning the steering ratio to about 9 for most cars and really like that even with the sensitivity at 90. Like fight -test aim small. Works for me anyways.
I have steering sensitivity at 60 and usually end up lowering the steering ratio of most cars a few clicks--most often into the 9-10 range.
[QUOTE=gotdirt410sprintcar;1270109]90 is crazy high you mise well add wheel so the wheel is not every where I think 45-55 is good[/QUOTE
I didn't get what you where saying there but 90 wasn't hard to drive. Actually I think lower is than 50 is way harder to be accurate with. I did turn it down a little bit though.
I have steering sensitivity at 60 and usually end up lowering the steering ratio of most cars a few clicks--most often into the 9-10 range.
I ended up at 70 after testing today. I really didn't have any problem driving it at 90 but it seemed to be a little easier especially now that I started running almost everything at 9 for steering ratio. Like all the settings its about finding the balance. I set the sensitivity at 90 before I started turning the steering ratio down. Probably should have rechecked it sooner but ive been having so much fun just driving I haven messed with anything. Been really enjoying running open wheel races on different tracks. Ive never been a fan before but they are a lot of fun in pcars.
I ended up at 70 after testing today. I really didn't have any problem driving it at 90 but it seemed to be a little easier especially now that I started running almost everything at 9 for steering ratio. Like all the settings its about finding the balance. I set the sensitivity at 90 before I started turning the steering ratio down. Probably should have rechecked it sooner but ive been having so much fun just driving I haven messed with anything. Been really enjoying running open wheel races on different tracks. Ive never been a fan before but they are a lot of fun in pcars.
Sensitivity settings can be weird. I can basically adapt to them at a wide range of settings, because I just get used to the feel, like you do with almost anything that only offers one option. In order to make large scale changes, I sometimes have to ween myself down or up the scale in smaller increments, because too much at once just throws me so far off, I can no longer have fun in the game.
And dude... I totally agree. I've been having an insane amount of fun since I stopped fiddling with FFB... LOL This game is amazing! I can't wait to get my Buttkicker. The BK mount for my rig came last week, but the BKs are out of stock until late May. :( Can't wait to get that setup. :)
gotdirt410sprintcar
24-04-2016, 20:33
How do you connect HUB DASH??
Ekay.jay
24-04-2016, 22:26
Hud dash? Launch the app on your device. Then is Pcars gameplay menu there is a UDP setting at the bottom. Turn it to 5 and you should be good to go.
Sensitivity settings can be weird. I can basically adapt to them at a wide range of settings, because I just get used to the feel, like you do with almost anything that only offers one option. In order to make large scale changes, I sometimes have to ween myself down or up the scale in smaller increments, because too much at once just throws me so far off, I can no longer have fun in the game.
And dude... I totally agree. I've been having an insane amount of fun since I stopped fiddling with FFB... LOL This game is amazing! I can't wait to get my Buttkicker. The BK mount for my rig came last week, but the BKs are out of stock until late May. :( Can't wait to get that setup. :)
That's why I ordered the next one up from the gamer. They are always out of stock. The one I got is stronger and only cost a little more. Many of the sim racing places sell it. I got mine on amazon. Just mount it to a board under the seat and youre good to go. This game is so good once you stop playing with the ffb! The formula cars are so much fun. I ran a multi class race last night with them. Nothing like hear the formula a cars screaming up behind you! I was in a formula c car so being down by 2 laps wasn't too bad after 25 laps. I haven't raced anything other then open wheel stuff in a couple of weeks. Really helps with race awareness. The ai isn't forgiving at all in open wheel. Ive been trying different tracks too lately and really enjoying everyone of them. At this point I wouldn't have changed anything about p cars because it was all worth it!:cool:
That's why I ordered the next one up from the gamer. They are always out of stock. The one I got is stronger and only cost a little more. Many of the sim racing places sell it. I got mine on amazon.:
Did you recently purchase from Amazon ? I can not find them any where.
Did you recently purchase from Amazon ? I can not find them any where.
Ive had mine since early winter. When I got mine the gamer ones were sold out everywhere so I got that one instead. Which I'm glad I did.
Ekay.jay
25-04-2016, 02:17
Did you recently purchase from Amazon ? I can not find them any where.
Just about anything made by Buttkicker is very hard to find right now. Almost all their products are on back order.
tennenbaum
25-04-2016, 06:26
Body/Arm Scale is not affected by TF itīs a different bus but adds force to the global output.
Development of Karts in pCARS are more or less small cars rather than Karts, maybe in pCARS 2 body/arm makes sense then. BTW wheel weight
under braking comes from Mz (self aligning torque), weight transfer to the front. Fx just adds rumble under heavy braking (if youīre lucky) thereīs
never an ongoing force from it.
i thought the body/gut forces module was broken (at least until patch 8.00) with ps4. Did it get fixed in the meanwhile? may be it always worked properly on PC?
tennenbaum
25-04-2016, 06:32
I ended up at 70 after testing today. I really didn't have any problem driving it at 90 but it seemed to be a little easier especially now that I started running almost everything at 9 for steering ratio. Like all the settings its about finding the balance. I set the sensitivity at 90 before I started turning the steering ratio down. Probably should have rechecked it sooner but ive been having so much fun just driving I haven messed with anything. Been really enjoying running open wheel races on different tracks. Ive never been a fan before but they are a lot of fun in pcars.
Turning up steering sensitivity helped me a lot to catch sudden oversteer better. ( i use 84 in general. with Formula A it might be indeed a bit twitchy.)
tennenbaum
25-04-2016, 08:35
I don't know if it is nonlinear or not but it seems that it adds alot of weight to the wheel while making things only slightly stronger for ffb. It actually feels very similar to me as adjusting tf but sg seems like a much bigger jump where tf seems very fine in the adjustment. Even though we know because of where they are in the chain reversing them doesn't give you the same results. Maybe because we are so close to saturation already trying to get all we can out of the ffb that any extra sg just turns into wheel weight with no added benefit. I tried playing with rac not to long ago just to see and nothing helped lower less feel higher just more weight. Thats why I stopped playing with the numbers I cant find anything that's improves the feeling at this point.
i tested SG yesterday. it's true the more i increased the value higher than 1.00 the more 'non-linear' weight i got, while compensating by lowering FFB of course. The tricky part is, depending on wheel (hardware) and other settings (especiallly SK and SR) you may even experience an opposit effect. (I didn't have time to test that.)
the reason for this behaviour is difficult to explain. SG imo is very likely a linear 'volume knob' but it amplifies the forces 'along side' the convex or concave bow-shaped I/O curve. So, the more convex your shape is, the more weight with a feel of saturation with less nuances you get with higher SG (while the absoute max FFB strength is kept at a certain max value defined by your liking or what your wheel can produce maximally.) If your I/O curve is rather concave (due to SK in a range of 0.4 - 0.8, and SR let's say e.g. 0.5), you will rather experience a relativly lighter wheel (while still levelling for the same absolute FFB strength.) The proof of my theory would be, if the relative feel of weight doesn't change with higher SG values (while compensating by lowering FFB) when your I/O curve is close to linear (thus not bowed, neither convex, nor concave.)
Think of 'relative' weight of wheel versus 'absolute' weight of wheel like this: the 'absolute' weight is the torque force that your wheel can either produce at maximum, or the strength of torque that you dial in by the FFB slider (with PC it's different) that you define to be the maximum according your individual liking. The 'relative' weight is the feel from the spectrum of lower and higher tireforces within the range of 0 to your setting of the 'absolute' FFF strengt.
'Relative' wheel weight can be nicely expressed and showed in the i/o curve coordinate axis picture: the convex bowed i/o curve helms (covers) more surface (pane) under it, than the concave bowed i/o curve, which covers less surface. The size of the surface actually expresses the 'relative' weight: bigger surface more relative wheel weight, smaller surface less relative weight...
the difference between absolute and relative wheel weight might look abstract in the first place, but after getting the nature of it it helps to interprete the many different effects different settings can cause.
Playing around with RAG can be confusing indeed. The entire RAG/RAB/RAC module is a blackbox for most. (just to pick one of many missunderstandings, RAC is not a multiplier (e.g with values > 1.00), instead it is a soft limiter... but only for RAG, not for the original signals that "pass" RA. RAG actually doesn't stipulate the 'gain' in terms of amplifying something, it rather sets a threshold when the RAG effect (delta torque) shall set in, while RAC defines the level at which the RAG computation result shall be put out, before the non-RAG-effected tireforce signal gets back into play after RAB made the RAG signal bleed out... that's why messing with RAG doesn't necessarily influence the absolute and relative wheel weight much. Instead changes of RAB can change the relative wheel weight significantly).
To be honest, the more i understood the FFB system, and getting an idea of how the settings influence each other, the more i was in danger to forget about the joy of simply racing the game.
however, it is the complexity of the FFB that can be attempting... in my case it lead to a paradox outcome: i turned the RAG/B/C module off.
it's nothing wrong with the Relative Adjust, and it's genius to create a vivid and spectecular FFB experience. It's just my very personal individual preference. Because RA does a very specific thing that started to irritate me: it kind of "breaks" the natural tire load.
Let me try to exolain that: when you reach maximum grip, and when you can hold it there, (let's say in the long sweeper of watkins glen short after the bus stop) it leads - also in reality - to quite constant load on the wheel. Whenyou switch RA off you can nicely feel that, and especially you can feel the nuances when that constant 'load' diminishes when you are about to loose the optimal steering angle. WITH the RA module switched on the natural "saturation', thus the real ongoing steady load on the wheel due to a real constant load on the tires, gets "interrupted" (when you use fast RAB bleed out values) or "replaced" by RAG ( with higher RAB values). That gives you 'road feel', but not necessarily the best idea of what you are trying to master: to create and hold the maximum tire load.
sidenote: because RA exists and because it's fun to use it, the rest of the settings became so tricky: since RA kind of counteracts a natural grade of saturation while cornering you have to fumble around with so many other parameters just to get back a certain basic wheel weight. i don't mean that in a negative way at all: the rabbit whole was opened the moment we were all looking for a vivid FFB experience (road feel!) even while driving in a straight line. To beef it up, we ( the devs) had to come up with elaborate and nice (!) workarounds, while the physics in reality don't provide much effects on your steering wheel on straights, except some vibrations at your butt :-)
In that context, it's interesting to take the JS settings and then to switch off the RA module. you might be surprised how good it still feels. it also proves how well JS balanced all the settings in terms of avoiding clipping and unnecessary saturations. i also assume he choose to set TF to 75 because - among other reasons - this way his values look resonable to beginners ( like in the middle of the value corridors) and with SG 145 he provides a more 'natural' compression (more relative wheel weight) than with the soft clipper or stronger compression effects in the RA module.
So that's my conclusion here: if you are looking for more nuances (as you did), while your i/o curve might be a bit convex bowed anyway, higher TF and lower SG really seem to be the way to go. Though, i'm sure you know it (but let me mention it for other readers), the moment you raise TF the then stronger signal triggers the RAG/B/C module differently. you get more vividness due to triggering the threshold of RAG faster/more often, but at the same time you can get also then unwanted counteracting saturation caused by RAC, depending on where you set it. That possible saturation can be stonger the higher you set RAB. But if i rember right you set RAB to 0.06 (fast bleed out) so potential saturation (clamping) caused by RAC is minimal to none. btw: when i was using RA i just set RAC to 2.00 to make sure i get unaltered (uncompressed) signals out of the RA box. you can do that, if you don't need RAC as a limiter to normalize tire forces that were too high before.
last not least: i'm curious how Asseto Corso FFB will feel? Can it be intuitive and rich, while being kind of naturalistic?? i think pCars set the benchmark pretty high by now... given that you were reading that forum's thread here :p
Turning up steering sensitivity helped me a lot to catch sudden oversteer better. ( i use 84 in general. with Formula A it might be indeed a bit twitchy.)
I was at 90 and really liked it that way but after reading every ones posts about it I checked it again. When I did it originally I hadn't started changing the steering ratio to about 9.0 for most cars yet. Like Haiden said though most of us can adapt to most settings pretty easily even if they are wrong. So back to the glen and the ruf for more testing.lol At 70 I was able to pretty easily click off mid to high 1.07s in a row with sensitivity as 90 I had to work to get into the 1.07s I could do it but it was much harder. A faster steering ratio definitely helps with catching sudden oversteer. I see what fight-test was talking about with slow ratios and correcting your corrections. Slow ratios big hand movements/ fast ratios small hand movements-small corrections.
That's why I ordered the next one up from the gamer. They are always out of stock. The one I got is stronger and only cost a little more. Many of the sim racing places sell it. I got mine on amazon. Just mount it to a board under the seat and youre good to go. This game is so good once you stop playing with the ffb! The formula cars are so much fun. I ran a multi class race last night with them. Nothing like hear the formula a cars screaming up behind you! I was in a formula c car so being down by 2 laps wasn't too bad after 25 laps. I haven't raced anything other then open wheel stuff in a couple of weeks. Really helps with race awareness. The ai isn't forgiving at all in open wheel. Ive been trying different tracks too lately and really enjoying everyone of them. At this point I wouldn't have changed anything about p cars because it was all worth it!:cool:
Hmmm, I might look into that one. But the BK mount for my rig is for the standard one. I'd have to figure out how to mount the other one. There's not wood under my seat. I'd have to find someway to secure it to the metal frame.
tennenbaum
25-04-2016, 12:22
I was at 90 and really liked it that way but after reading every ones posts about it I checked it again. When I did it originally I hadn't started changing the steering ratio to about 9.0 for most cars yet. Like Haiden said though most of us can adapt to most settings pretty easily even if they are wrong. So back to the glen and the ruf for more testing.lol At 70 I was able to pretty easily click off mid to high 1.07s in a row with sensitivity as 90 I had to work to get into the 1.07s I could do it but it was much harder. A faster steering ratio definitely helps with catching sudden oversteer. I see what fight-test was talking about with slow ratios and correcting your corrections. Slow ratios big hand movements/ fast ratios small hand movements-small corrections.
i love this thread... you seldomly have the chance to evaluate practice versus theory and vica versa so profoundly.
increasing steering sensitivity and lowering steering ratio kind of manipulates the same matter: how much time does it take until you reach the wished steering angle. shorter/faster 'transmission' with lower steering ratios make the steering more "responsive"; same with higher sensitivity.
the question is, is it in general easier to correct steering with larger or smaller movements? it's about precision... but your test shows that with higher sensitivity (and/or lower steering ratio) the precision needed can be too challenging.
it'd be interesting to know, in a case of doubt, what's easier to adjust to your benefits: steering ratio or steering sensitivity? the first has the disadvantage that you have to go back to menu so the setting become active, the latter requires to go to the globals... both ways take time and make it harder to compare the settings. besides: with some tracks (like Monaco) a lower steering ratio is mandatory anyway.
my biggest question to the very fast racers among us: can they be faster by turning RA off?
morpwr, you're fast :D, can you please try!
i tried to figure it out on the glen with the ruf many times, but i'm not consistent enough to come to a satisfying conclusion.
Hmmm, I might look into that one. But the BK mount for my rig is for the standard one. I'd have to figure out how to mount the other one. There's not wood under my seat. I'd have to find someway to secure it to the metal frame.
I have the same one as you. It was really easy just cut a piece to fit in between the sliders drill 4 holes and done. If you look under the seat you will see the 2 braces I screwed it to.
i love this thread... you seldomly have the chance to evaluate practice versus theory and vica versa so profoundly. increasing steering sensitivity and lowering steering ratio kind of manipulates the same matter: how much time does it take until you reach the wished steering angle. shorter/faster 'transmission' with lower steering ratios make the steering more "responsive"; same with higher sensitivity. the question is, is it easier to correct steering with larger or smaller movements? it's about precision... but your test shows that with higher sensitivity (and/or lower steering ratio) settings a precision is needed, that is too much to handle. it'd be interesting to know, in a case of doubt, what's easier to adjust to your benefits: steering ratio or steering sensitivity? the first has the disadvantage that you have to go back to menu so the setting become active, the latter requires to go to the globals... both ways take time and make it harder to compare the settings.
At this point I would have to say steering ratio is more important. Even going from 9.9 to 9.0 makes a very noticeable difference to me. Steering sensitivity wasn't so much to make the steering faster for me but to get rid of that soft spot the t300 has around center. Which it does help with but like all of our settings there is a compromise. You are right to about this forum. One of the best parts is you can pretty much trust all the guys on here when it comes to getting feedback from settings and sometimes it makes you go back are relook at things you did or thought.
At this point I would have to say steering ratio is more important. Even going from 9.9 to 9.0 makes a very noticeable difference to me. Steering sensitivity wasn't so much to make the steering faster for me but to get rid of that soft spot the t300 has around center. Which it does help with but like all of our settings there is a compromise. You are right to about this forum. One of the best parts is you can pretty much trust all the guys on here when it comes to getting feedback from settings and sometimes it makes you go back are relook at things you did or thought.
I totally agree about this thread making you rethink things sometimes. Really like that about it.
I don't know. When it comes to steering sensitivity vs. ratio, I think they are similar, in the fact that they affect steering response, but I don't think they are interchangeable. Sensitivity will be applied to and affect all cars equally, which isn't always good. Ratio can be set to car and track as needed. Monaco is a perfect example of a track that you might use a lower ratio than you do on others with the same car. And the ideal ratio changes from car to car. You don't have that flexibility with sensitivity.
Jezza819
25-04-2016, 14:28
Over the past few days I've experimented with raising Tire Force. First I went from 50 to 60. Felt a little stiffer. Then 60 to 70. As little as the 50 to 60 increase felt, the 60 to 70 increase felt massive. I can still drive but the wheel is very stiff now. What's the benefit of running tire force as high as some of you do? And I'm still not sure that I understand what Wheel Weight means.
I totally agree about this thread making you rethink things sometimes. Really like that about it.
I don't know. When it comes to steering sensitivity vs. ratio, I think they are similar, in the fact that they affect steering response, but I don't think they are interchangeable. Sensitivity will be applied to and affect all cars equally, which isn't always good. Ratio can be set to car and track as needed. Monaco is a perfect example of a track that you might use a lower ratio than you do on others with the same car. You don't have that flexibility with sensitivity.
Agree 100% that's why I pointed out I wasn't really using it for an actual steering adjustment although it does affect it. Which is also why after some of the posts from you guys I went back and revisited that. The feedback from the guys on here is usually really good when it comes to does this work or not. Unfortunately the t300 has a soft spot right off center and sensitivity was the only thing I found that really helped it. I just went too far with the adjustment especially after starting to use faster steering ratios. Because I had adapted already to the sensitivity at 90 I didn't really notice it making the cars twitchy until I went back and tried the glen. Lap times don't lie.lol
Over the past few days I've experimented with raising Tire Force. First I went from 50 to 60. Felt a little stiffer. Then 60 to 70. As little as the 50 to 60 increase felt, the 60 to 70 increase felt massive. I can still drive but the wheel is very stiff now. What's the benefit of running tire force as high as some of you do? And I'm still not sure that I understand what Wheel Weight means.
FFB is about balancing the dynamic interaction of all the settings. I run TF at 75, but because of my high Scoop Knee and Reduction, RAC, and relatively low in-car masters, the wheel has great dynamic range without the additional weight from oversaturation. If TF at 75 feels heavy to you, then you're probably running high scales in other settings, because TF=75 isn't really that high, especially for a CSW-v2. Some people run TF=100. What are your other settings, like SG, RAG, RAC, FF, Scoops, and in-car Master Scale?
Over the past few days I've experimented with raising Tire Force. First I went from 50 to 60. Felt a little stiffer. Then 60 to 70. As little as the 50 to 60 increase felt, the 60 to 70 increase felt massive. I can still drive but the wheel is very stiff now. What's the benefit of running tire force as high as some of you do? And I'm still not sure that I understand what Wheel Weight means.
Wheel weight is how strong the wheel is when you try to turn it. Problem with tf force is when you turn it down you lose feel from the tires to a point. What do you have your ffb master and sg at? I would try setting sg at 1.0 ,tf at 75 and Haiden can probably help you with the csw v2 settings. Are you using jacks car settings?
Never mind he beat me to it.lol
I have the same one as you. It was really easy just cut a piece to fit in between the sliders drill 4 holes and done. If you look under the seat you will see the 2 braces I screwed it to.
I know exactly what you're talking about. I'll take a look at it today. Thanks!
GrimeyDog
25-04-2016, 16:25
I was at 90 and really liked it that way but after reading every ones posts about it I checked it again. When I did it originally I hadn't started changing the steering ratio to about 9.0 for most cars yet. Like Haiden said though most of us can adapt to most settings pretty easily even if they are wrong. So back to the glen and the ruf for more testing.lol At 70 I was able to pretty easily click off mid to high 1.07s in a row with sensitivity as 90 I had to work to get into the 1.07s I could do it but it was much harder. A faster steering ratio definitely helps with catching sudden oversteer. I see what fight-test was talking about with slow ratios and correcting your corrections. Slow ratios big hand movements/ fast ratios small hand movements-small corrections.
Im Sooo outta the Loop right Now... Ive been Driving Many Different Cars and Tracks but Not Focused on any Specific 1... I went to the Glen and it was a Struggle to get into the 1:07.xxx lap zone. Uuuugh i gotta focus and get back in Racing Form.
Im Sooo outta the Loop right Now... Ive been Driving Many Different Cars and Tracks but Not Focused on any Specific 1... I went to the Glen and it was a Struggle to get into the 1:07.xxx lap zone. Uuuugh i gotta focus and get back in Racing Form.
I'm actually the opposite right now. I'm having an easier time but ive been doing a lot of open wheel stuff on different tracks. They really make you learn good braking technique to be fast with them and it helps on the rest of the cars. The other day was the first time I had consecutive 1.07s and it felt pretty easy. I can see how youre getting 1.06s now.
inthebagbud
25-04-2016, 17:15
Over the past few days I've experimented with raising Tire Force. First I went from 50 to 60. Felt a little stiffer. Then 60 to 70. As little as the 50 to 60 increase felt, the 60 to 70 increase felt massive. I can still drive but the wheel is very stiff now. What's the benefit of running tire force as high as some of you do? And I'm still not sure that I understand what Wheel Weight means.
Jezza you have to be careful as the xbox and PS4 are different on the FFB front and some of the settings in this thread will be way to powerful for xbox
For a starter I suggest you plug in Haidens settings in his signature
Put FFB in game to 100 and TF to 75
Use Jack spades classic
On your wheel start with FFB at 20 and work up from there
Jezza819
25-04-2016, 17:16
FFB is about balancing the dynamic interaction of all the settings. I run TF at 75, but because of my high Scoop Knee and Reduction, RAC, and relatively low in-car masters, the wheel has great dynamic range without the additional weight from oversaturation. If TF at 75 feels heavy to you, then you're probably running high scales in other settings, because TF=75 isn't really that high, especially for a CSW-v2. Some people run TF=100. What are your other settings, like SG, RAG, RAC, FF, Scoops, and in-car Master Scale?
SG 1.00, RAG 1.00, RAC 0.75, FF 60 I think, Scoops Knee 0.68 Reduction 0.24, Master Scale 100
Like I said, 70 doesn't feel all that bad once I get used to it. It was just a much bigger step up than 50 to 60 was. But I guess that makes sense that the stiffness should increase exponentially the higher you climb up. Now that 98 number that Grimey first put out there? That was absolutely too much. No way possible I could drive that. That could be a PS4 vs. XB1 thing.
Wheel weight is how strong the wheel is when you try to turn it. Problem with tf force is when you turn it down you lose feel from the tires to a point. What do you have your ffb master and sg at? I would try setting sg at 1.0 ,tf at 75 and Haiden can probably help you with the csw v2 settings. Are you using jacks car settings?
Never mind he beat me to it.lol
I used Jack's settings when I first got the game. Then a few months ago I discovered Grimey's settings and they just felt so much better on just about everything I spend so much time driving. There's only been the odd car here or there that really doesn't respond to anything I throw at it. The Ford Mk IV and Lotus Type 40 come to mind right now. The steering wheel on both of those cars just seems to be a ornament and not really a functional part of the car. It's like, "here we go, let's make this right hand turn ok?" and the car says, "NO I don't want to" and then flips me the middle finger. ;)
SG 1.00, RAG 1.00, RAC 0.75, FF 60 I think, Scoops Knee 0.68 Reduction 0.24, Master Scale 100
Like I said, 70 doesn't feel all that bad once I get used to it. It was just a much bigger step up than 50 to 60 was. But I guess that makes sense that the stiffness should increase exponentially the higher you climb up. Now that 98 number that Grimey first put out there? That was absolutely too much. No way possible I could drive that. That could be a PS4 vs. XB1 thing.
I used Jack's settings when I first got the game. Then a few months ago I discovered Grimey's settings and they just felt so much better on just about everything I spend so much time driving. There's only been the odd car here or there that really doesn't respond to anything I throw at it. The Ford Mk IV and Lotus Type 40 come to mind right now. The steering wheel on both of those cars just seems to be a ornament and not really a functional part of the car. It's like, "here we go, let's make this right hand turn ok?" and the car says, "NO I don't want to" and then flips me the middle finger. ;)
A lot of Fanatec owners run Scoop Knee/Reduction at 0.86/0.28. Compared to your current settings, the higher knee should lighten the wheel up some, and that seems to be a good Knee for the hardware, at least IMO. Lowering the Knee, can make your wheel heavier, because you're basically sending more FFB detail into the stronger high force range.
I would recommend reducing your in-car Masters, or at least giving that a fair try. If you have to raise them that high, then it's probably because you're starving the FFB elsewhere in the globals. Of course, you don't have to lower them. There are different paths to achieve similar results. But with your in-car Masters at 100, it's no wonder you can't run TF at 75. That's just too much weight. These scales work together, not independently. You crank your in-car Master, then you have to compensate with a reduction somewhere else.
Think of the in-car masters as a small detail brush for fine tuning. And the global TF as your wide stroke brush. Since TF will apply to all cars (a wide stroke), set it as high as you can get to work across the board, and then use the in-car Masters to fine tune cars on a individual basis, increasing/decreasing the Master Scale as needed to dial in the exact amount of strength/weight you want per car. That gives you the most flexibility.
Jack's global settings work extremely well, but I would recommend lowering SG. His settings have it at 1.45, and I found that to be a little too much saturation. Be careful you don't fall into the oversaturation trap. Oversaturated feedback often feels like it's delivering more detail, road texture, etc. But the oversaturation is simply creating noise in the signal. That noise may feel like road texture, but it's presence actually masked a lot of the subtle feeling of tire slip and weight transfer you need to feel. The problem is, once you get used to oversaturated feedback, it's difficult to come back, because the longer you use it, the stranger/more bland good FFB is going to feel (I know from experience, and it took me awhile to detox. :) ). But the thing is, if the force dynamic could be equated to simple numbers, then a good analogy would be: good FFB delivers 100 detail points. Oversaturated feedback delivers 120, but the extra 20 points from the oversaturated FFB are not actually useful details. They're just exaggerated fluctuations in the spectrum that you wouldn't have felt if it weren't for the over amplified signal.
IMO, if you're pushing your in-car Masters extremely high, then you're not making good use of your wide stroke brushe (TF). :) But again, that's due to my approach. Because these scales are multipliers, there are different ways to go about it. But in the end, you will have to balance them out. You can't crank gains in one area without a reduction in others, otherwise, you end up with clipping and/or noise in the dynamic.
tennenbaum
25-04-2016, 21:08
Im Sooo outta the Loop right Now... Ive been Driving Many Different Cars and Tracks but Not Focused on any Specific 1... I went to the Glen and it was a Struggle to get into the 1:07.xxx lap zone. Uuuugh i gotta focus and get back in Racing Form.
i'm still stuck with 1.08.122. it drives me crazy. the 1.07. is like the supersonic wall for me... i can't deal with the last two corners... i change FFB settings, adapt to it, but can't break though... wicked!!!!
tennenbaum
25-04-2016, 21:16
A lot of Fanatec owners run Scoop Knee/Reduction at 0.86/0.28. Compared to your current settings, the higher knee should lighten the wheel up some, and that seems to be a good Knee for the hardware, at least IMO. Lowering the Knee, can make your wheel heavier, because you're basically sending more FFB detail into the stronger high force range.
I would recommend reducing your in-car Masters, or at least giving that a fair try. If you have to raise them that high, then it's probably because you're starving the FFB elsewhere in the globals. Of course, you don't have to lower them. There are different paths to achieve similar results. But with your in-car Masters at 100, it's no wonder you can't run TF at 75. That's just too much weight. These scales work together, not independently. You crank your in-car Master, then you have to compensate with a reduction somewhere else.
Think of the in-car masters as a small detail brush for fine tuning. And the global TF as your wide stroke brush. Since TF will apply to all cars (a wide stroke), set it as high as you can get to work across the board, and then use the in-car Masters to fine tune cars on a individual basis, increasing/decreasing the Master Scale as needed to dial in the exact amount of strength/weight you want per car. That gives you the most flexibility.
Jack's global settings work extremely well, but I would recommend lowering SG. His settings have it at 1.45, and I found that to be a little too much saturation. Be careful you don't fall into the oversaturation trap. Oversaturated feedback often feels like it's delivering more detail, road texture, etc. But the oversaturation is simply creating noise in the signal. That noise may feel like road texture, but it's presence actually masked a lot of the subtle feeling of tire slip and weight transfer you need to feel. The problem is, once you get used to oversaturated feedback, it's difficult to come back, because the longer you use it, the stranger/more bland good FFB is going to feel (I know from experience, and it took me awhile to detox. :) ). But the thing is, if the force dynamic could be equated to simple numbers, then a good analogy would be: good FFB delivers 100 detail points. Oversaturated feedback delivers 120, but the extra 20 points from the oversaturated FFB are not actually useful details. They're just exaggerated fluctuations in the spectrum that you wouldn't have felt if it weren't for the over amplified signal.
IMO, if you're pushing your in-car Masters extremely high, then you're not making good use of your wide stroke brushe (TF). :) But again, that's due to my approach. Because these scales are multipliers, there are different ways to go about it. But in the end, you will have to balance them out. You can't crank gains in one area without a reduction in others, otherwise, you end up with clipping and/or noise in the dynamic.
great post! yes, saturation / oversaturation makes you numb for the details. hard to get back for the nuances...
however, best thing here in this thread is to realize that there is not good/bad, right/wrong, but lot's of background info to find a setting that suits your individual taste.
Jezza819
25-04-2016, 22:04
FFB is about balancing the dynamic interaction of all the settings. I run TF at 75, but because of my high Scoop Knee and Reduction, RAC, and relatively low in-car masters, the wheel has great dynamic range without the additional weight from oversaturation. If TF at 75 feels heavy to you, then you're probably running high scales in other settings, because TF=75 isn't really that high, especially for a CSW-v2. Some people run TF=100. What are your other settings, like SG, RAG, RAC, FF, Scoops, and in-car Master Scale?
A lot of Fanatec owners run Scoop Knee/Reduction at 0.86/0.28. Compared to your current settings, the higher knee should lighten the wheel up some, and that seems to be a good Knee for the hardware, at least IMO. Lowering the Knee, can make your wheel heavier, because you're basically sending more FFB detail into the stronger high force range.
I would recommend reducing your in-car Masters, or at least giving that a fair try. If you have to raise them that high, then it's probably because you're starving the FFB elsewhere in the globals. Of course, you don't have to lower them. There are different paths to achieve similar results. But with your in-car Masters at 100, it's no wonder you can't run TF at 75. That's just too much weight. These scales work together, not independently. You crank your in-car Master, then you have to compensate with a reduction somewhere else.
Think of the in-car masters as a small detail brush for fine tuning. And the global TF as your wide stroke brush. Since TF will apply to all cars (a wide stroke), set it as high as you can get to work across the board, and then use the in-car Masters to fine tune cars on a individual basis, increasing/decreasing the Master Scale as needed to dial in the exact amount of strength/weight you want per car. That gives you the most flexibility.
Jack's global settings work extremely well, but I would recommend lowering SG. His settings have it at 1.45, and I found that to be a little too much saturation. Be careful you don't fall into the oversaturation trap. Oversaturated feedback often feels like it's delivering more detail, road texture, etc. But the oversaturation is simply creating noise in the signal. That noise may feel like road texture, but it's presence actually masked a lot of the subtle feeling of tire slip and weight transfer you need to feel. The problem is, once you get used to oversaturated feedback, it's difficult to come back, because the longer you use it, the stranger/more bland good FFB is going to feel (I know from experience, and it took me awhile to detox. :) ). But the thing is, if the force dynamic could be equated to simple numbers, then a good analogy would be: good FFB delivers 100 detail points. Oversaturated feedback delivers 120, but the extra 20 points from the oversaturated FFB are not actually useful details. They're just exaggerated fluctuations in the spectrum that you wouldn't have felt if it weren't for the over amplified signal.
IMO, if you're pushing your in-car Masters extremely high, then you're not making good use of your wide stroke brushe (TF). :) But again, that's due to my approach. Because these scales are multipliers, there are different ways to go about it. But in the end, you will have to balance them out. You can't crank gains in one area without a reduction in others, otherwise, you end up with clipping and/or noise in the dynamic.
I probably could run 75, I've just never tried it. It's only 5 above where I'm at right now. But 98 is entirely too high and like you said it might be because the masters are at 100. But for me I like where I'm at right now or I might split the difference at 65 just for a test. Just about everything I spend the most time in works on these numbers.
i'm still stuck with 1.08.122. it drives me crazy. the 1.07. is like the supersonic wall for me... i can't deal with the last two corners... i change FFB settings, adapt to it, but can't break though... wicked!!!!
Once you do youll be like really ?It took me this long? Back the second last corner up so you can hit the corner carrying a lot more speed and turn in way earlier than you would think .You really straighten the corner out that way. Same goes for the next one just tap the brake and turn in. The last corner looks totally wrong when you try it the first time but you can make it and carry a lot more speed . You almost need to start turning as soon as you get back to the left after the second last turn. I did it you can do it!
gotdirt410sprintcar
25-04-2016, 22:38
i'm still stuck with 1.08.122. it drives me crazy. the 1.07. is like the supersonic wall for me... i can't deal with the last two corners... i change FFB settings, adapt to it, but can't break though... wicked!!!!
.
Add body stuff I promise you will break the 1.07 wall. I could only run 52. something in the f1 car now I'm like five spots behind grimey just by doing it I'M FASTER LOL js
I probably could run 75, I've just never tried it. It's only 5 above where I'm at right now. But 98 is entirely too high and like you said it might be because the masters are at 100. But for me I like where I'm at right now or I might split the difference at 65 just for a test. Just about everything I spend the most time in works on these numbers.
You shouldn't have any problem running 75 or higher but you will need to compensate somewhere else. You will need to turn the ffb master on your wheel down to get a normal wheel weight back. If your going grimeys way youll probably have to turn the car settings down to compensate if youre leaving the car masters at 100 so you don't get clipping. Have you checked grimeys updated settings? If youre trying to use pieces of both ways of setting the ffb I don't think youre going to get the results your hoping for.
I have the same one as you. It was really easy just cut a piece to fit in between the sliders drill 4 holes and done. If you look under the seat you will see the 2 braces I screwed it to.
Crazy! Just about everything they have is out of stock, even the amps! I hope that mid-late May restock estimate is accurate. :(
Oh well... I can get the monitor stand and screen in the meantime. :)
gotdirt410sprintcar
26-04-2016, 02:54
[QUOTE=morpwr;1270603]
If youre trying to use pieces of both ways of setting the ffb I don't think youre going to get the results your hoping for.
That's what I was doing now I will stay with his settings I haven't even touched any global settings but S Gain and master's settings little in car stuff so jezza819 PICK ONE learn it that way then make changes if need be stay with the IN CAR settings for the most part.
GrimeyDog
26-04-2016, 03:52
The RSeat RS1 is a Great Rig... Very Solid Very Sturdy... Its sooo Solid without the buttkickers on it i can Still feel the FFB from the wheel Vibrating through it when i hit Rumble Strip...2 Grips The Buttkicker Mount Sucks and I will have to Modify it... Its a Real Pain in the Ars to get it on also...2) The Seat is Really Tight if you have Broad Shoulders or a Muscular upper body.... Minor Quirks to a other wise Solid Rig!!! The stock shifter Mount also Fits the Fanatec shifter so dont bother ordering the Extra Fanatec only shifter... I have to make a wood mounting plate so it will hold the Hand Brake also... Easy Work. ... Over the weekend i will see how to mount My Nice Comfy Subaru Seat i been using to it... Should be easy work, Wood, L Brakets and pop it in there... I may put the Fiber glass Seat on Ebay... Hmmm Maybe I dunno...
Spent Most the afternoon adjusting the Wheel Deck and seating position was able to Pop a few 1:07.6xx driving definily feels different but in a Good way... Maybe More Natural driving Posture... I dunno im Not fully finished adjusting it yet...Tweek Tweek Tweek.
GrimeyDog
26-04-2016, 11:06
I probably could run 75, I've just never tried it. It's only 5 above where I'm at right now. But 98 is entirely too high and like you said it might be because the masters are at 100. But for me I like where I'm at right now or I might split the difference at 65 just for a test. Just about everything I spend the most time in works on these numbers.
With the RAC 75 tweek the Globals for Me are Spot on for the V2 wheel, you can pretty Much Run any in car settings you want without fear of Clipping.. Just adjust your on Wheel FFB to a Strength Level that Fits you best.
Life is settling down a bit and i have more free time so i will be Checking to see if i can Refine the Tweek further... For Me its about feeling the Finer more subtle forces because the Harder Harsher FFB will be felt any way... Its about finding that Right Balance... Remember while the same in car settings work and bring out Good feel in all Cars all Cars Still remain with their own identity and Driving Characteristics/Traits.... Some Cars will Under/Over Steer but thats the Car Not the FFB you have to Suspension Tweek to cure Under/Over steer on a per Car Basis.... Remember the FFB Only Determines How Road Feel, Bumps, Curbs and Weight Tranfer Good FFB will Not make a Floaty Car Handle Corners Better but it will Give you info about the Car and how its Handling so you can better Manage Speed, Braking, Under/Over Steer in in Corners.
To Me i see the Global/ in Car FFB settings as the Road... The Road will Not Change on a per Car Basis thats why i use same in car settings all cars... But the way different Cars will Handle and Feel on the same Road, Corner is Very Different this is My theory thats why i do Not Blur the Line by Tweeking FFB to try and Cure Car Handling/Suspension issues.... FFB and Suspension are 2 totally Separate things... IMO I think some times this fact gets over looked.
Jezza819
26-04-2016, 15:04
You shouldn't have any problem running 75 or higher but you will need to compensate somewhere else. You will need to turn the ffb master on your wheel down to get a normal wheel weight back. If your going grimeys way youll probably have to turn the car settings down to compensate if youre leaving the car masters at 100 so you don't get clipping. Have you checked grimeys updated settings? If youre trying to use pieces of both ways of setting the ffb I don't think youre going to get the results your hoping for.
I don't necessarily want to run 75. 70 is plenty for now or I can reduce it if I want to. I really haven't had to turn anything down yet and I've only got a few more things to test. Yes I am using his latest 10.0 settings across the board so I'm not straddling between two different ideas or pieces of other ideas.
I think it might have been interpreted that I'm struggling and nothing could be further from the truth. I just plug in Grimey's numbers, adjust the FFB or TF to where I like it, and pretty much everything works as is. I was just curious as to what this thing does or what this term means. I don't have anything right now that is almost completely undriveable other than the two I indicated earlier, the Ford Mk IV and the Lotus Type 40. I don't do much at all in street cars so I don't really care if they work or not
With the RAC 75 tweek the Globals for Me are Spot on for the V2 wheel, you can pretty Much Run any in car settings you want without fear of Clipping.. Just adjust your on Wheel FFB to a Strength Level that Fits you best.
Life is settling down a bit and i have more free time so i will be Checking to see if i can Refine the Tweek further... For Me its about feeling the Finer more subtle forces because the Harder Harsher FFB will be felt any way... Its about finding that Right Balance... Remember while the same in car settings work and bring out Good feel in all Cars all Cars Still remain with their own identity and Driving Characteristics/Traits.... Some Cars will Under/Over Steer but thats the Car Not the FFB you have to Suspension Tweek to cure Under/Over steer on a per Car Basis.... Remember the FFB Only Determines How Road Feel, Bumps, Curbs and Weight Tranfer Good FFB will Not make a Floaty Car Handle Corners Better but it will Give you info about the Car and how its Handling so you can better Manage Speed, Braking, Under/Over Steer in in Corners.
To Me i see the Global/ in Car FFB settings as the Road... The Road will Not Change on a per Car Basis thats why i use same in car settings all cars... But the way different Cars will Handle and Feel on the same Road, Corner is Very Different this is My theory thats why i do Not Blur the Line by Tweeking FFB to try and Cure Car Handling/Suspension issues.... FFB and Suspension are 2 totally Separate things... IMO I think some times this fact gets over looked.
What he said. I don't know all the ins and outs and technical bits, I just drive and these settings work for me. :)
Titzon Toast
26-04-2016, 15:15
What he said. I don't know all the ins and outs and technical bits, I just drive and these settings work for me. :)[/QUOTE]
There's a pair of you in it so.
GrimeyDog
26-04-2016, 15:55
What he said. I don't know all the ins and outs and technical bits, I just drive and these settings work for me. :)
There's a pair of you in it so.[/QUOTE]
More than a few pairs even:p
tennenbaum
26-04-2016, 23:42
With the RAC 75 tweek the Globals for Me are Spot on for the V2 wheel, you can pretty Much Run any in car settings you want without fear of Clipping.. Just adjust your on Wheel FFB to a Strength Level that Fits you best.
Life is settling down a bit and i have more free time so i will be Checking to see if i can Refine the Tweek further... For Me its about feeling the Finer more subtle forces because the Harder Harsher FFB will be felt any way... Its about finding that Right Balance... Remember while the same in car settings work and bring out Good feel in all Cars all Cars Still remain with their own identity and Driving Characteristics/Traits.... Some Cars will Under/Over Steer but thats the Car Not the FFB you have to Suspension Tweek to cure Under/Over steer on a per Car Basis.... Remember the FFB Only Determines How Road Feel, Bumps, Curbs and Weight Tranfer Good FFB will Not make a Floaty Car Handle Corners Better but it will Give you info about the Car and how its Handling so you can better Manage Speed, Braking, Under/Over Steer in in Corners.
To Me i see the Global/ in Car FFB settings as the Road... The Road will Not Change on a per Car Basis thats why i use same in car settings all cars... But the way different Cars will Handle and Feel on the same Road, Corner is Very Different this is My theory thats why i do Not Blur the Line by Tweeking FFB to try and Cure Car Handling/Suspension issues.... FFB and Suspension are 2 totally Separate things... IMO I think some times this fact gets over looked.
i also drive different cars with the same (thus one) Fxyzm SoP and global setting, and feel very comfortable with it. i only adjust master spindle scale and Sop scale +/- 2. since i don't use RA or any other compression or limiter tools i don't get grinding, clanking, whatsoever. i"ll probably miss some elaborated sensations that more specific individual settings can provide, but i like the idea to experience the different characters of the cars, as bad or good their FFB feels, without tuning it. i think that was not possible in the beginning, but since patch 8.0 most (not all) cars' FFB is not so off that you have to really correct it with very individual FFB settings.
tennenbaum
26-04-2016, 23:51
.
Add body stuff I promise you will break the 1.07 wall. I could only run 52. something in the f1 car now I'm like five spots behind grimey just by doing it I'M FASTER LOL js
when i dial in body forces at low scale values they don't speak to me in a way that i understand. at higher values they create effects that feel wrong to me. i still think the body force module (for ps4) is still broken.
gotdirt410sprintcar
27-04-2016, 00:32
when i dial in body forces at low scale values they don't speak to me in a way that i understand. at higher values they create effects that feel wrong to me. i still think the body force module (for ps4) is still broken.
Yeah I'm still been playing with it I know nothing about the pc side. but i was thinking body scale is what the g forces are per car max g forces.
I think i have the formula A at 8.0 any hire or lower it don't feel right. I was taking body stiffness as 110 that would be 50kg and divided by the car weight but i don't know if that's right either. I just feel the car is more planted to the track. I know I was running high 51s at the Glen with the formula A with that added I'm consistently in the mid to high 50 second laps
Yeah I'm still been playing with it I know nothing about the pc side. but i was thinking body scale is what the g forces are per car max g forces.
I think i have the formula A at 8.0 any hire or lower it don't feel right. I was taking body stiffness as 110 that would be 50kg and divided by the car weight but i don't know if that's right either. I just feel the car is more planted to the track. I know I was running high 51s at the Glen with the formula A with that added I'm consistently in the mid to high 50 second laps
I haven't got the body stuff to ever feel right. It always feels like something that doesn't belong to me. I'm guessing the time difference is more youre learning the track car combination better. Take it off and see if you can still do it. My guess is you will be able to but I could be wrong. Try a car you use all the time for testing that you pretty much know you cant get much faster with and see.
GrimeyDog
27-04-2016, 02:48
Seat RS1 Finally Done:o... I had to Remake My Shifter hand brake Holder but it came out Nice... I think i may remake the Buttkicker mount... I think the standard buttkicker mount Sucks and it blocks you from Lowering the rear of the seat to the last Level...Also it makes you mount the buttkickers in the side position and IIRC they are supposed to be mounted where they shake up and down Not side to side:mad: What a waste of $$$ the Buttkicker mount was!!! But i will make a Better mount over the weekend some time... Other than that the RS1 is a great Piece of kit... Its sooo solid that i can Clearly feel the FFB from the wheel Vibrating through the frame:congratulatory:... If i would have known that a good Rig would change the feel of sim racing this much i would have bought this long time ago:yes: feeling Motivated, Lap times are improving...im Not even going to work tomorrow... im staying home to get some playtime with the new toy:victorious:
gotdirt410sprintcar
27-04-2016, 02:57
I probably could fall sleep in that after a long night of racing. Nice setup man that be my next move
You should mount t one of those butt kickers under the wheel or under the pedals if able.
GrimeyDog
27-04-2016, 04:55
I probably could fall sleep in that after a long night of racing. Nice setup man that be my next move
You should mount t one of those butt kickers under the wheel or under the pedals if able.
i thought about that but i use them 1 plays left the other plays right...actually works really good like that and you can tell the diff between left/right impacts or rumble strips.
Seat RS1 Finally Done:o... I had to Remake My Shifter hand brake Holder but it came out Nice... I think i may remake the Buttkicker mount... I think the standard buttkicker mount Sucks and it blocks you from Lowering the rear of the seat to the last Level...Also it makes you mount the buttkickers in the side position and IIRC they are supposed to be mounted where they shake up and down Not side to side:mad: What a waste of $$$ the Buttkicker mount was!!! But i will make a Better mount over the weekend some time... Other than that the RS1 is a great Piece of kit... Its sooo solid that i can Clearly feel the FFB from the wheel Vibrating through the frame:congratulatory:... If i would have known that a good Rig would change the feel of sim racing this much i would have bought this long time ago:yes: feeling Motivated, Lap times are improving...im Not even going to work tomorrow... im staying home to get some playtime with the new toy:victorious:
You are correct buttkickers are not meant to be mounted sideways because of the way they work. The piece that moves will wear from its own weight. Nice seat looks good. Youll probably get used to the seat fitting tight. You have to remember its a racing seat its not supposed to let you slide around. Having a solid rig is the only way to go space permitting obviously.
i also drive different cars with the same (thus one) Fxyzm SoP and global setting, and feel very comfortable with it. i only adjust master spindle scale and Sop scale +/- 2. since i don't use RA or any other compression or limiter tools i don't get grinding, clanking, whatsoever. i"ll probably miss some elaborated sensations that more specific individual settings can provide, but i like the idea to experience the different characters of the cars, as bad or good their FFB feels, without tuning it. i think that was not possible in the beginning, but since patch 8.0 most (not all) cars' FFB is not so off that you have to really correct it with very individual FFB settings.
Jack explained his reasoning for creating individual per-car settings. It wasn't to make them all feel the same or similar, which is obvious, because they don't. Using his per-car settings, each car still has it's own individual characteristics. IIRC, he said it had something to do with the way SMS modeled the cars. Some cars have exaggerated forces in some areas and weak forces in other areas, and these difference have nothing to do with the RL mechanical architecture of the car. His per-car settings are an attempt to bring them all into balance, equalizing the scales so that they better reflect the fixed physics of the real world. I don't remember where he posted his explanation, but prior to reading it, I was using one tune for all cars, as well. After reading it, I decided to go a back to his settings. I loved the convenience of having one tune for all cars, and the in-car tune I was using was pretty good. There were just always a few cars that felt good, but not optimal to me.
Again, everyone has their own preference. There's no right or wrong, only what works best for you. But the idea that Jack's individual settings prevent you from experiencing the car's unique characteristics is not true.
Jack explained his reasoning for creating individual per-car settings. It wasn't to make them all feel the same or similar, which is obvious, because they don't. Using his per-car settings, each car still has it's own individual characteristics. IIRC, he said it had something to do with the way SMS modeled the cars. Some cars have exaggerated forces in some areas and weak forces in other areas, and these difference have nothing to do with the RL mechanical architecture of the car. His per-car settings are an attempt to bring them all into balance, equalizing the scales so that they better reflect the fixed physics of the real world. I don't remember where he posted his explanation, but prior to reading it, I was using one tune for all cars, as well. After reading it, I decided to go a back to his settings. I loved the convenience of having one tune for all cars, and the in-car tune I was using was pretty good. There were just always a few cars that felt good, but not optimal to me.
Again, everyone has their own preference. There's no right or wrong, only what works best for you. But the idea that Jack's individual settings prevent you from experiencing the car's unique characteristics is not true.
Totally agree every car still retains its own personality with jacks settings. Even cars in the same class like gt3 feel completely different from one another.
GrimeyDog
27-04-2016, 19:28
That is the Beauty of Pcars FFB system... Every 1 can Create their own FFB feel to suite their own Idea of what they think a certain car/s should Feel like:yes:
With out a official tuning guide from SMS there is No Right there is No Wrong... There is only what works and feels Good to the individual...Any settings that feels good and works for you is the Best setting for you:victorious:
Totally agree every car still retains its own personality with jacks settings. Even cars in the same class like gt3 feel completely different from one another.
I just tried the BMW Z4 for the first time, after last Sunday's race. I know... I've had the game since release--don't know why it took me so long...LOL But that car is a perfect example. None of the other GT3s feel as good as that car does to me.
gotdirt410sprintcar
27-04-2016, 22:27
I think the Z4 is good no matter what game you play it was good in gt6 too.
I just tried the BMW Z4 for the first time, after last Sunday's race. I know... I've had the game since release--don't know why it took me so long...LOL But that car is a perfect example. None of the other GT3s feel as good as that car does to me.
Yeah its funny some of the gt3 cars feel like your going really slow while some like the ginetta feel really fast but all are close in times and they all require different driving styles to get the most out of them. I think you and this game ruined me with the formula cars. I always hated them but I haven't driven anything else in two weeks now. lol
GrimeyDog
28-04-2016, 01:20
Simple fix Drilled some holes and used the same pipe fittings that I used to mount the Buttkickers to my old seat... But the question is why do they sell a mount that you have to mount the Buttkickers the wrong way :confused: they are Not supposed to mount sideways they are supposed to mount in the up and down position:yes:
They Even provide better rumble effect now that they are mounted in the proper up and down position.
Yeah its funny some of the gt3 cars feel like your going really slow while some like the ginetta feel really fast but all are close in times and they all require different driving styles to get the most out of them. I think you and this game ruined me with the formula cars. I always hated them but I haven't driven anything else in two weeks now. lol
They are addicting. It's a totally different driving style. Fun as hell. That's really funny that you're hooked on them now. I've been getting into the GT3 class for the past couple weeks. This game really has some great cars. I love it.
Have you tried the Lotus 78C? I don't know what it is about that car, but it's a huge favorite of mine. Lots of power, but it doesn't have the aerodynamic grip that modern open wheelers do, so you have to rely on the mechanical grip and be smooth on the throttle. Also, the front tires are too small to handle heavy braking, so the brake bias is shifted to the rear, which makes it even more interesting. :)
tennenbaum
28-04-2016, 06:06
Totally agree every car still retains its own personality with jacks settings. Even cars in the same class like gt3 feel completely different from one another.
i'll give jack's settings another try...
Titzon Toast
28-04-2016, 07:37
i'll give jack's settings another try...
I think they're brilliant, we're lucky he put in such effort to make them.
i'll give jack's settings another try...
I would. After playing with mz and fy setting up cars my numbers were so close it wasn't worth making my own. Yes some of the cars were close in numbers but for the most part they all needed to be different to get the correct feel. I'm sure you know what happens when mz and fy are set wrong thats why I couldn't see how a one size fits all approach could work across the board.
They are addicting. It's a totally different driving style. Fun as hell. That's really funny that you're hooked on them now. I've been getting into the GT3 class for the past couple weeks. This game really has some great cars. I love it.
Have you tried the Lotus 78C? I don't know what it is about that car, but it's a huge favorite of mine. Lots of power, but it doesn't have the aerodynamic grip that modern open wheelers do, so you have to rely on the mechanical grip and be smooth on the throttle. Also, the front tires are too small to handle heavy braking, so the brake bias is shifted to the rear, which makes it even more interesting. :)
If that's the one with the crazy power band yes I have. If I remember right it was sort of like an on off switch. I didn't use that one much but ill have to get back to it.
GrimeyDog
28-04-2016, 11:28
The Gt3 BMW is a Great Car... But i just Love the Gt3 Ruf!!! its My favirite car in the whole game... Its Not as fast as the BMW but it can keep up because it makes up with cornering speed.... its a Real Hand full to drive but when you get the feel of it its very rewarding...IMO its the Hardest car to drive fast in Gt3.
I would. After playing with mz and fy setting up cars my numbers were so close it wasn't worth making my own. Yes some of the cars were close in numbers but for the most part they all needed to be different to get the correct feel. I'm sure you know what happens when mz and fy are set wrong thats why I couldn't see how a one size fits all approach could work across the board.
Exactly. One size fits all means the same across the board. Once you start making exceptions--altering certain cars here and there--however small the change, it's no longer a one-size fits all solution and actually confirms the individual needs of each car.
This isn't the post from Jack that changed my mind about using one in-car tune for all, but he references that post here, and kind of summarizes the issue.
FFB is directly derived from individual car/tire physics, SMS interpreted including oddities and human errors to be precise. In consequence
the data the physics spits out is different from car to car and in order to deal with it for an optimized FFB performance SMS gave us the individual car FFB setup menus,
on PC tweaker files as an option. In an other posting I stressed the differences even among the same group of cars can be extremely. If all cars would work with the same
FFB setting SMS could have saved many months of development and a lot of money by just going without those menus. The character of a car doesnīt get destroyed by
an individual optimized FFB setup, the opposite is true, the character gets lost among the misinterpreted stream of data.
I'm pretty sure what he means is that FFB isn't RL. It's a simulation of RL physics, and as such, the "physics don't change in real life" concept, although true, doesn't apply, because...this isn't RL. In a sim, the forces being sent to and felt in the wheel are meant to help us understand what the car is doing from our limited perspective. Some of the forces we feel in a sim wheel aren't present in a RL wheel, and vice-versa. In a sim, RL physics are closely simulated for the tire model, so that cars behave like they would in RL based on their mechanical setup. But simulating how that mechanical behavior feels in the wheel is different, because our hardware is limited, compared to the full mechanical configuration of a real car. Adjusting the FFB per car isn't changing the physics of the game/world, because the tire model remains unchanged, and that is what is actually simulating the RL physics, not the FFB. The FFB only changes how you interpret the output of the tire model. But nothing you do to the FFB will give the car more or less grip, so no, the physics aren't changing.
Also, that's not a promo for individual in-car settings. It's still a personal preference. But, IMO, that preference is more rooted in convenience and personal tastes, because in-car FFB has absolutely zero bearing on the game's physics. Individual in-car settings are not a requirement. Like the global settings, customization is just a way to fine tune/personalize the FFB for optimum feebback.
inthebagbud
28-04-2016, 12:07
After playing with the fanatec for a couple of weeks and a dismal display in the NVIDIA Challenge series I have started to revisit my FFB.............groan
My question is what does everybody expect to feel when turning into a corner ................ in that as you are going in a straight line there is a certain "weight" to the wheel, which is just like the "weight" for you feel when driving in a normal car ....so when you turn into a corner IN GAME do you expect that weight to go more "heavier" or less "lighter"?
Through the xbox the road feel - bumps/humps/car bouncing/tyre grip seems to be consistantly there no matter what number I use for TF/FFB/wheel FFB , but can be a little harsh so I am trying to tune this out a little by lowering the TF/FFB. This is has had the affect of "lightining" up the cornering feel, which I actually like.
Before I ran thinking that as you turned you had to feel resistance and the wheel should be pushing back at you as you turned - comments?
I use Jacks classic settings and would run wheel ffb 50 game ffb 100 TF 75, but in my experiment I have reverted to wheel ffb 45 game fffb 100 TF 60, which still gives me the nice road effects but has lightened up the turn , but left the staright line "weight" the same, so why has it left the straight line the same ( ws i over saturated before) but changed the cornering aspect
After playing with the fanatec for a couple of weeks and a dismal display in the NVIDIA Challenge series I have started to revisit my FFB.............groan
My question is what does everybody expect to feel when turning into a corner ................ in that as you are going in a straight line there is a certain "weight" to the wheel, which is just like the "weight" for you feel when driving in a normal car ....so when you turn into a corner IN GAME do you expect that weight to go more "heavier" or less "lighter"?
Through the xbox the road feel - bumps/humps/car bouncing/tyre grip seems to be consistantly there no matter what number I use for TF/FFB/wheel FFB , but can be a little harsh so I am trying to tune this out a little by lowering the TF/FFB. This is has had the affect of "lightining" up the cornering feel, which I actually like.
Before I ran thinking that as you turned you had to feel resistance and the wheel should be pushing back at you as you turned - comments?
I use Jacks classic settings and would run wheel ffb 50 game ffb 100 TF 75, but in my experiment I have reverted to wheel ffb 45 game fffb 100 TF 60, which still gives me the nice road effects but has lightened up the turn , but left the staright line "weight" the same, so why has it left the straight line the same ( ws i over saturated before) but changed the cornering aspect
Yes. IMO, the reason the weight is the same on the straights is because the lateral forces are low, the grip is constant, and there's no slip (especially understeer). When you corner, the lateral forces kick in, but the wheel is getting lighter because you're now feeling the understeer and subtle tire slip that you were unable to feel before because of the oversaturation. :) I would bet that if you improve your line/corner entry (slow in fast out), you'll feel more weight in the corner because there's less slip/understeer. In fact, try this... when you corner and the wheel is feeling light, come off the throttle a little to slow the car. I bet the wheel weight will start to increase as the grip level rises. This is how you know when to push or back off in corner. With an oversaturated wheel, you make this decision based more on gear, speed, and tire squeal than actual wheel feel. Oversaturation allows you to power through corners, because you don't feel the understeer related slip, which often results in faster hot lap times. But in a race, you're somewhat handicapped, because you're scrubbing your tires and can't manage them as well for a duration. And you also have less of a feel for how much grip is actually available when overtaking or running wheel to wheel through a corner, both of which take you off you preferred/practice line.
Congratulations! It sounds like you're on your way to saturation detox. :D
Jezza819
28-04-2016, 14:22
I just tried the BMW Z4 for the first time, after last Sunday's race. I know... I've had the game since release--don't know why it took me so long...LOL But that car is a perfect example. None of the other GT3s feel as good as that car does to me.
Yeah the Z4 has been a favorite of mine for a long time. Great driving car plus it has an awesome engine sound. I like most all of the GT3s except the Ginetta, the Bentley, and the M3 GT3. I don't hate them but I rarely drive them.
tennenbaum
28-04-2016, 18:59
Originally Posted by tennenbaum
i'm still stuck with 1.08.122. it drives me crazy. the 1.07. is like the supersonic wall for me... i can't deal with the last two corners... i change FFB settings, adapt to it, but can't break though... wicked!!!!
Once you do youll be like really ?It took me this long? Back the second last corner up so you can hit the corner carrying a lot more speed and turn in way earlier than you would think .You really straighten the corner out that way. Same goes for the next one just tap the brake and turn in. The last corner looks totally wrong when you try it the first time but you can make it and carry a lot more speed . You almost need to start turning as soon as you get back to the left after the second last turn. I did it you can do it!
I DID IT!
Ruf (stock) Glen short: 1.07.882
I changed steering ratio from (stock) 15.4:1 to 12.9:1, lowered steering sensitivity from 84 to 80, remembered the trail braking lessons and finally found surprisingly the yet missing 0.2 second in the long sweeper (by glueing myself to the right/inner curbs)
I thought it will never happen to crack the 1.08. Thanks guys for cheering me up and make my not give up :)
232255
celebration video!!:
https://youtu.be/WeKvGXoSz70
I DID IT!
Ruf (stock) Glen short: 1.07.882
I changed steering ratio from (stock) 15.4:1 to 12.9:1, lowered steering sensitivity from 84 to 80, remembered the trail braking lessons and finally found surprisingly the yet missing 0.2 second in the long sweeper (by glueing myself to the right/inner curbs)
I thought it will never happen. Thanks guys for cheering me up and make my not give up :)
232255
celebration video!!:
https://youtu.be/WeKvGXoSz70
Ive found steering ratio is really important and usually set way to high default. Almost every car I start at 9.0 now. 12.9 is still slow. Congratulations on finally making it!!! I knew you could do it.
Sorry. Had to share this. It's sad that it's pretty accurate about the industry in general...LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngEhgqGlyjQ
tennenbaum
28-04-2016, 21:14
Sorry. Had to share this. It's sad that it's pretty accurate about the industry in general...LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngEhgqGlyjQ
haha, so true! it works on me, and i'm no kid no more... i hope the kids kind of get immune to it. it was one of the presidents of Sony's SCEE who said (i think it was about in 2007) "we want people's (life) time..."
tennenbaum
28-04-2016, 21:54
Yes. IMO, the reason the weight is the same on the straights is because the lateral forces are low, the grip is constant, and there's no slip (especially understeer). When you corner, the lateral forces kick in, but the wheel is getting lighter because you're now feeling the understeer and subtle tire slip that you were unable to feel before because of the oversaturation. :) I would bet that if you improve your line/corner entry (slow in fast out), you'll feel more weight in the corner because there's less slip/understeer. In fact, try this... when you corner and the wheel is feeling light, come off the throttle a little to slow the car. I bet the wheel weight will start to increase as the grip level rises. This is how you know when to push or back off in corner. With an oversaturated wheel, you make this decision based more on gear, speed, and tire squeal than actual wheel feel. Oversaturation allows you to power through corners, because you don't feel the understeer related slip, which often results in faster hot lap times. But in a race, you're somewhat handicapped, because you're scrubbing your tires and can't manage them as well for a duration. And you also have less of a feel for how much grip is actually available when overtaking or running wheel to wheel through a corner, both of which take you off you preferred/practice line.
Congratulations! It sounds like you're on your way to saturation detox. :D
saturation detox... nice headline and imo one of the best advices to get the full spectrum of FFB that pCars can offer. For those not being afraid of experiments: switch off RA and don't be shy to give more Fy a chance, while being less focused on 'road feel! (thus less Fz and less SoPdiff). Rely on pCars realistic simulation of translating a loose oversteering rear into an additional quick wheel weight when the rear steps out. Doing so you get wheel weight back during cornering, which is closer to reality. It makes a difference if you get (realistic) wheel weight from realistic steering forces due to Fy translated to wheel torque by scrub radius (mainly due to caster), or by saturation that masks every detail info. though it's true, saturation during cornering can help for hotlapping. (though, speaking for myself, i got faster with no saturation.).
After playing with the fanatec for a couple of weeks and a dismal display in the NVIDIA Challenge series I have started to revisit my FFB.............groan
My question is what does everybody expect to feel when turning into a corner ................ in that as you are going in a straight line there is a certain "weight" to the wheel, which is just like the "weight" for you feel when driving in a normal car ....so when you turn into a corner IN GAME do you expect that weight to go more "heavier" or less "lighter"?
Through the xbox the road feel - bumps/humps/car bouncing/tyre grip seems to be consistantly there no matter what number I use for TF/FFB/wheel FFB , but can be a little harsh so I am trying to tune this out a little by lowering the TF/FFB. This is has had the affect of "lightining" up the cornering feel, which I actually like.
Before I ran thinking that as you turned you had to feel resistance and the wheel should be pushing back at you as you turned - comments?
I use Jacks classic settings and would run wheel ffb 50 game ffb 100 TF 75, but in my experiment I have reverted to wheel ffb 45 game fffb 100 TF 60, which still gives me the nice road effects but has lightened up the turn , but left the staright line "weight" the same, so why has it left the straight line the same ( ws i over saturated before) but changed the cornering aspect
What are you running for ffb settings? This would help us a lot regarding saturation. But id turn down sg before id turn down tf . Sg has more of an effect on the weight and strength of the wheel than tf. They both have similar results but not exactly the same when it comes to adding a lot of weight to the wheel. What is sg set at now?
GrimeyDog
28-04-2016, 23:12
I Agree 100% that Saturation Detox gives Much better subtle FFB Feel... with My RAC 75 tweek due to the low RAC setting i stay well out of the saturation/clipping Zone and the subtle FFB Feel is the best its ever been...but that also has much to do with SMS improving the tire Model Physics...this makes a huge improvement for any FFB tweek used.
inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 06:37
Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I am not sure I was suffering from the saturation per se as I always made sure I was not clipping , but do get the idea that if wheel weight is "heavy" you can drive through the ffb. I actually thought my ffb was good before this recent episode but driving the Bentley in the recent challenge (which was default) made me question this as after I went back to run the car with my settings.
So the issue was that the underlying feeling felt harsh, some corning was jolting me , presume as tyres slipped , but is was way to much... but other forces where fine.
So at this point I would run js classic (no sop) 100 in game ffb, 75 wheel ffb and tf 75/100 and SG always at 1
So I started by turning tf and ffb down and found the lightness around tf 45 and game ffb 100 and wheel to to 60.
I do run rag at 1 .1 .85 but do turn off as I actually can't see what it does with a fanatec/xbox combination
questions are
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game
Somebody please throw me a rope I want out of this rabbit hole !!
spacepadrille
29-04-2016, 08:39
A good way to speed up the "saturation detox" is to play to DiRT Rally a few days, then going back to PCars but immediately with a desaturated tweak (e.g. SG at 1.00, TF 75 and FF 60). You will find it "superb and strong"
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 08:55
Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I am not sure I was suffering from the saturation per se as I always made sure I was not clipping , but do get the idea that if wheel weight is "heavy" you can drive through the ffb. I actually thought my ffb was good before this recent episode but driving the Bentley in the recent challenge (which was default) made me question this as after I went back to run the car with my settings.
So the issue was that the underlying feeling felt harsh, some corning was jolting me , presume as tyres slipped , but is was way to much... but other forces where fine.
So at this point I would run js classic (no sop) 100 in game ffb, 75 wheel ffb and tf 75/100 and SG always at 1
So I started by turning tf and ffb down and found the lightness around tf 45 and game ffb 100 and wheel to to 60.
I do run rag at 1 .1 .85 but do turn off as I actually can't see what it does with a fanatec/xbox combination
questions are
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game
Somebody please throw me a rope I want out of this rabbit hole !!
What is your RAC set to???
Turn down RAC until the FFB is to the strength that you want it to be... The RAC is How you adjust the FFB Effects Strength Level... Dont knock it until you try it...I dont use JS settings so i dont know about the rest of the Numbers But im Sure RAC sets the Constant power level of FFB effects... Reduce RAC until FFB Effects strength is to your liking.
inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 09:19
What is your RAC set to???
Turn down RAC until the FFB is to the strength that you want it to be... The RAC is How you adjust the FFB Effects Strength Level... Dont knock it until you try it...I dont use JS settings so i dont know about the rest of the Numbers But im Sure RAC sets the Constant power level of FFB effects... Reduce RAC until FFB Effects strength is to your liking.
Grimey
I use RA settings as yours and understand that they shape the signal but my quandry is
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low - wheel FFB 60/ TF 45
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game - what should be the 100 controller the wheel or game i.e which one should be used to adjust FFB
Grimey
I use RA settings as yours and understand that they shape the signal but my quandry is
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low - wheel FFB 60/ TF 45
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game - what should be the 100 controller the wheel or game i.e which one should be used to adjust FFB
I will nitpit just a bit before going. Js Classic do have some SoP. Only the Diff part. You can run them without any SoP. It may get too light on some car.
As for your questions, you could see it that way:
With Jack's Classic, with TF above 40, you'll need some sort of anti-clipping tools. As TF moves up, you'll need to compress the FFB signal more. Be carefull, as you compress the signal, you'll reach a point where the signal still doesn't clip, but it gets saturated. It's essentialy another form of clipping. No torque delta(no differentiation). It's a matter of finding the right balance between a nice overall weight and not too much compression(One thing that can wash out understeering).
I don't have a console, so this idea may only be a loss of time, but you could do the following for question #3. I'm only advising the following because you have a wheel with some build-in memory.
0.5 Write down your current config.
1.Put the game FFB to 100%.
2.Put SG to 1,5(don't go too high here)
3.Put your wheel FFB to 50
4.Take a car and run at SPA(long curves)
With the above setup, there's good changes you'll clip right away. That's what you're looking for. You want to find the strongest output the wheel can do. If it's too strong(or weak), lower(or crank) the wheel FFB until you reach the desired MAX torque.
When this is done, you can put back your working setup. At that point, you may need to fine tune the FFB deadzone and the slope of forces.
The more i think of it, the above could apply to a memory less wheel. It would be:
0.5 Write down your current config.
1.Put the game FFB to it's default value(console).
2.Put SG to 1,5(don't go too high here)
3.Put your wheel FFB to 50% of default value.
4.Take a car and run at SPA(long curves)
Thoses recipe are for someone that wants to lower a wheel strenght.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 10:58
There are 2 ways to go about this
1) If your using JS settings i cant say for sure what to turn down...But Jeep Reducing RAC untill the FFB strength is goid for you.
2)But if your using My Complete Settings then you would set everything as is in the PDF, then test using your favorite car and track and + or - the Masters per Car until it feels Right for you... Then if Needed you can adjust Fx, Fy, SoP etc per car to get the Feel you want and Re-adjust the Masters to set the FFB effects strength again.
When it comes to SG/TF there is No Right or wrong as long as your Not Clipping... Its just about what feels Good to you.
Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I am not sure I was suffering from the saturation per se as I always made sure I was not clipping , but do get the idea that if wheel weight is "heavy" you can drive through the ffb. I actually thought my ffb was good before this recent episode but driving the Bentley in the recent challenge (which was default) made me question this as after I went back to run the car with my settings.
So the issue was that the underlying feeling felt harsh, some corning was jolting me , presume as tyres slipped , but is was way to much... but other forces where fine.
So at this point I would run js classic (no sop) 100 in game ffb, 75 wheel ffb and tf 75/100 and SG always at 1
So I started by turning tf and ffb down and found the lightness around tf 45 and game ffb 100 and wheel to to 60.
I do run rag at 1 .1 .85 but do turn off as I actually can't see what it does with a fanatec/xbox combination
questions are
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game
Somebody please throw me a rope I want out of this rabbit hole !!
Being heavy is hard to describe concerning wheel weight if you drive the mustang gt does the weight feel normal like you would expect? It should turn pretty easy with that car. If it doesn't then I would turn down the ffb master . It seems you have a pretty good idea whats going on so I'm surprised with tf at 45 you aren't seeing a lot of room left in the hud. This isn't the case? Maybe we need a completely different approach on xbox then on the ps4? But I agree with grimey that rac set the starting weight for the forces. But something seems weird here because you need to turn everything down so much. Doesn't the v2 do something differently with how you set the ffb master on xbox? Am I correct in thinking the game master still has effect on the strength on the xbox? If it does leave it at 100 and just turn the wheel ffb down otherwise you are turning it down in game and then turning it back up at the wheel.
gruzzlebeard
29-04-2016, 11:19
Yes. IMO, the reason the weight is the same on the straights is because the lateral forces are low, the grip is constant, and there's no slip (especially understeer). When you corner, the lateral forces kick in, but the wheel is getting lighter because you're now feeling the understeer and subtle tire slip that you were unable to feel before because of the oversaturation. :) I would bet that if you improve your line/corner entry (slow in fast out), you'll feel more weight in the corner because there's less slip/understeer. In fact, try this... when you corner and the wheel is feeling light, come off the throttle a little to slow the car. I bet the wheel weight will start to increase as the grip level rises. This is how you know when to push or back off in corner. With an oversaturated wheel, you make this decision based more on gear, speed, and tire squeal than actual wheel feel. Oversaturation allows you to power through corners, because you don't feel the understeer related slip, which often results in faster hot lap times. But in a race, you're somewhat handicapped, because you're scrubbing your tires and can't manage them as well for a duration. And you also have less of a feel for how much grip is actually available when overtaking or running wheel to wheel through a corner, both of which take you off you preferred/practice line.
Congratulations! It sounds like you're on your way to saturation detox. :D
Hi Haiden, are you using the original in-Car FFB settings from Jack Spade or did you modify Master Scale & SoPLat?
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 12:48
Grimey
I use RA settings as yours and understand that they shape the signal but my quandry is
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low - wheel FFB 60/ TF 45
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game - what should be the 100 controller the wheel or game i.e which one should be used to adjust FFB
The TF/SG power output is very dependent upon which part of the FFB system you choose to get your FFB power From... I find it very easy with my settings to adjust the power level of all forces using RAC 75 that sets the Minimum Constant power Level of All FFB forces... then i can adjust each car to FFB strength the way i like with + or - with the in Car Masters:yes:
Its very easy to get Lost in the settings because the FFB is actually 3 FFB power systems you have to blend to work as 1.
1)TM and other wheels wheel GM FFB, But (PS4 only)Fanatec wheels its set by the On Wheel FFB.... This is Nit part of the FFB Chain and is aded after the Steering gain.
2) Tf
3) Steering Gain which is where all the FFB blend together but it adds power of its own.
Its all about finding the right Balance.
Edit: The XB1 FFB power output is stronger than PS4 and PC!!! Tou May Need to set your RAC to 65 to compensate for this Fact... This is something that thise that dont use XB1 May Not Consider when tweeking FFB.... I use My Same Tweek PS4 and XB1 but i Set RAC Lower on XB1 Because the FFB power out put is Stronger.... Try 65 RAC and set your Wheel to Auto FFB
I Agree 100% that Saturation Detox gives Much better subtle FFB Feel... with My RAC 75 tweek due to the low RAC setting i stay well out of the saturation/clipping Zone and the subtle FFB Feel is the best its ever been...but that also has much to do with SMS improving the tire Model Physics...this makes a huge improvement for any FFB tweek used.
Clipping and saturation are not the same thing. RAC has little, if anything, to do with saturation. High gains and multipliers (SG, RAG, TF, FF, Master Scales, etc) are the primary cause of saturation. You can lower RAC to 50 and still have an oversaturated wheel, because RAC is just limiting the top end of the output. It's not doing anything to limit what's being fed/pushed into the dynamic range.
IMO, your settings are actually very saturated. I understand that's your preference, but that doesn't change the fact that its a saturated tune. Your emphasis (as you always state) seems to be on "Road Feel" and road feel is not the same as slip/grip feel. Road feel is always there, even with the default settings. Enhancing that feel adds more texture to the wheel, which some people like and prefer, but that texture comes at an expense. It's masks subtle slip feel. It's the reason why you've been searching for the dynamic weight in cornering. The game has it, but it's getting lost in the oversaturation. IMO, road feel is more like an amenity, nice to have, but not something that should take priority over the feeling of grip and tire slip. Road feel isn't either. Bumps, curbs, and track texture are important but in an indirect way. What is important is being able to feel how those things affect your grip levels. If you only feel the road, but can't feel how it's affecting grip, then what's the point? Like everything concerning FFB. It's a balancing game, and personal preference dictates what you prioritize.
Poirqc is right above, oversaturation is basically another form of clipping. It's not going to show in telemetry, but the concept is the same. If you push too much into the dynamic by running high gains and multipliers, your wheel will always be receiving a strong FFB signal. Then, when you enter a corner, it can't communicate the subtle signal variances of the changing grip, because the volume controls are cranked too high. Because of hardware limitations, a wheel isn't capable of communicating everything at the same time, because some forces operate in the same spectrum as others. The more you push into your range, the more signals begin to overlap. Too much overlap, and subtle feel gets lost.
Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I am not sure I was suffering from the saturation per se as I always made sure I was not clipping , but do get the idea that if wheel weight is "heavy" you can drive through the ffb. I actually thought my ffb was good before this recent episode but driving the Bentley in the recent challenge (which was default) made me question this as after I went back to run the car with my settings.
So the issue was that the underlying feeling felt harsh, some corning was jolting me , presume as tyres slipped , but is was way to much... but other forces where fine.
So at this point I would run js classic (no sop) 100 in game ffb, 75 wheel ffb and tf 75/100 and SG always at 1
So I started by turning tf and ffb down and found the lightness around tf 45 and game ffb 100 and wheel to to 60.
I do run rag at 1 .1 .85 but do turn off as I actually can't see what it does with a fanatec/xbox combination
questions are
1. Should tf and ffb really be so low
2. Why am I still feeling the underlying harshness - which for the life of me I can't seem to get rid off
3. Ffb where should the 100 master be on wheel or in game
Somebody please throw me a rope I want out of this rabbit hole !!
What is your in-car Master Scale set at? Are you leaving them at Jack's default?
The Xb1 has stronger FFB, and has been a little hard to figure out since MS' update. Try lowering the game FF to 90. I don't understand what you mean about RAG being 1 .1 .85. Is that a value? What do you actually have it set to?
As for the wheel setting, I'm not sure, because it's different on PS4, where the wheel FF overrides the game FF. But if it works properly on Xb1, then your wheel FF is just an external volume control that you can use to attenuate the strength output from the wheel. Since it's external, it's affect on FFB is benign, meaning it won't affect your dynamic range/balance. So basically, you have to get your FFB signal balanced in the game first, then you can lower the wheel FF if needed. But if the wheel FF works correctly on Xb1 and isn't overriding the game FF, then I'd suggest leaving the wheel set at 100, until you get your in game FFB sorted out. It's one less control in the equation, and since it's a benign operator, there's no since in fiddling with it until you have the dynamic range you're looking for in game.
Hi Haiden, are you using the original in-Car FFB settings from Jack Spade or did you modify Master Scale & SoPLat?
I'm using the classic settings with SoP Diff only. I've tried, repeatedly, to use SoP Lat, but my lap times always suffer whenever I do, so I've just given up on it. It works in the same space as Fy, and I don't like that. It confusing me. I prefer the clean lateral forces of Fy.
With my current globals, I typically don't need to modify anything (other than the rounding required due to the different scale increments between PC and console. I usually round up). I've bumped the Master Scale up a click or two on a few cars, though. But that's mainly because I like driving those with the GT rim, which is heavier and provides more leverage, so the wheel feels lighter. If I drive the same car with the F1 rim, his default Master is fine.
Clipping and saturation are not the same thing. RAC has little, if anything, to do with saturation. High gains and multipliers (SG, RAG, TF, FF, Master Scales, etc) are the primary cause of saturation. You can lower RAC to 50 and still have an oversaturated wheel, because RAC is just limiting the top end of the output. It's not doing anything to limit what's being fed/pushed into the dynamic range.
IMO, your settings are actually very saturated. I understand that's your preference, but that doesn't change the fact that its a saturated tune. Your emphasis (as you always state) seems to be on "Road Feel" and road feel is not the same as slip/grip feel. Road feel is always there, even with the default settings. Enhancing that feel adds more texture to the wheel, which some people like and prefer, but that texture comes at an expense. It's masks subtle slip feel. It's the reason why you've been searching for the dynamic weight in cornering. The game has it, but the it's getting lost in the oversaturation. IMO, road feel is more like an amenity, nice to have, but not something that should take priority over the feeling of grip and tire slip. Road feel isn't either. Bumps, curbs, and track texture are important but in an indirect way. What is important is being able to feel how those things affect your grip levels. If you only feel the road, but can't feel how it's affecting grip, then what's the point? Like everything concerning FFB. It's a balancing game, and personal preference dictates what you prioritize.
Poirqc is right above, oversaturation is basically another form of clipping. It's not going to show in telemetry, but the concept is the same. If you push too much into the dynamic by running high gains and multipliers, your wheel will always be receiving a strong FFB signal. Then, when you enter a corner, it can't communicate the subtle signal variances of the changing grip, because the volume controls are cranked to high. Because of hardware limitation, a wheel isn't capable of communicating everything at the same time, because some forces operate in the same spectrum as others. The more you push into your range, the more signal begin to overlap. Too much overlap, and subtle feel gets lost.
Tire grip(understeer feeling) is the dessert of a meal. If you ate like a pig (https://www.google.ca/search?q=poutine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis-LG4_7PMAhWEtYMKHSWuDvQQ_AUIBygB&biw=1598&bih=901) before, you won't be able to enjoy it. :D
If you want to break me, just give me one of those! :D
Tire grip(understeer feeling) is the dessert of a meal. If you ate like a pig (https://www.google.ca/search?q=poutine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis-LG4_7PMAhWEtYMKHSWuDvQQ_AUIBygB&biw=1598&bih=901) before, you won't be able to enjoy it. :D
232307
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 14:03
Clipping and saturation are not the same thing. RAC has little, if anything, to do with saturation. High gains and multipliers (SG, RAG, TF, FF, Master Scales, etc) are the primary cause of saturation. You can lower RAC to 50 and still have an oversaturated wheel, because RAC is just limiting the top end of the output. It's not doing anything to limit what's being fed/pushed into the dynamic range.
IMO, your settings are actually very saturated. I understand that's your preference, but that doesn't change the fact that its a saturated tune. Your emphasis (as you always state) seems to be on "Road Feel" and road feel is not the same as slip/grip feel. Road feel is always there, even with the default settings. Enhancing that feel adds more texture to the wheel, which some people like and prefer, but that texture comes at an expense. It's masks subtle slip feel. It's the reason why you've been searching for the dynamic weight in cornering. The game has it, but the it's getting lost in the oversaturation. IMO, road feel is more like an amenity, nice to have, but not something that should take priority over the feeling of grip and tire slip. Road feel isn't either. Bumps, curbs, and track texture are important but in an indirect way. What is important is being able to feel how those things affect your grip levels. If you only feel the road, but can't feel how it's affecting grip, then what's the point? Like everything concerning FFB. It's a balancing game, and personal preference dictates what you prioritize.
Poirqc is right above, oversaturation is basically another form of clipping. It's not going to show in telemetry, but the concept is the same. If you push too much into the dynamic by running high gains and multipliers, your wheel will always be receiving a strong FFB signal. Then, when you enter a corner, it can't communicate the subtle signal variances of the changing grip, because the volume controls are cranked to high. Because of hardware limitation, a wheel isn't capable of communicating everything at the same time, because some forces operate in the same spectrum as others. The more you push into your range, the more signal begin to overlap. Too much overlap, and subtle feel gets lost.
FFB is all about personal Taste....everything else we Know
The TF/SG power output is very dependent upon which part of the FFB system you choose to get your FFB power From... I find it very easy with my settings to adjust the power level of all forces using RAC 75 that sets the Minimum Constant power Level of All FFB forces... then i can adjust each car to FFB strength the way i like with + or - with the in Car Masters:yes:
Its very easy to get Lost in the settings because the FFB is actually 3 FFB power systems you have to blend to work as 1.
1)TM and other wheels wheel GM FFB, But (PS4 only)Fanatec wheels its set by the On Wheel FFB.... This is Nit part of the FFB Chain and is aded after the Steering gain.
2) Tf
3) Steering Gain which is where all the FFB blend together but it adds power of its own.
Its all about finding the right Balance.
Edit: The XB1 FFB power output is stronger than PS4 and PC!!! you May Need to set your RAC to 65 to compensate for this Fact... This is something that thise that dont use XB1 May Not Consider when tweeking FFB.... I use My Same Tweek PS4 and XB1 but i Set RAC Lower on XB1 Because the FFB power out put is Stronger.... Try 65 RAC and set your Wheel to Auto FFB
This Read the Edit
RAC Has everything to do with saturation!!! It sets the Base Level for the FFB Forces when using the Rekative System... Set the RAC to 0, 50 and 100 feel the power difference.
FFB is all about personal Taste....everything else we Know
RAC Has everything to do with saturation!!! It sets the Base Level for the FFB Forces when using the Rekative System... Set the RAC to 0, 50 and 100 feel the power difference.
We're not talking about power. We're talking about saturation. They are not the same thing.
IIRC, RAC even comes after TF and the force scales that feed the spindle. So how exactly does it have anything to do with saturation? Yes, RAC limits the power output. But by then the dynamic is already over saturated. If you have a really tall and overweight person (their weight being the saturation and RAC being their height), making them shorter doesn't make them any less overweight, does it? The only way to eliminate the weight is reduce what they're being fed. :)
Edit: I understand FFB comes down to personal tastes. And I'm not saying yours or anyone else's settings are right or wrong. But I do think that it's important to be clear about what settings and scales actually do and how they affect the FFB. Otherwise, people that are still trying to find their personal sweet spot with FFB, will have a more difficult time navigating the settings, because they're misinformed about the affects. Power and saturation are not the same thing, and if you don't understand the distinction, then you're going to have trouble tuning.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 14:54
Clipping and saturation are not the same thing. RAC has little, if anything, to do with saturation. High gains and multipliers (SG, RAG, TF, FF, Master Scales, etc) are the primary cause of saturation. You can lower RAC to 50 and still have an oversaturated wheel, because RAC is just limiting the top end of the output. It's not doing anything to limit what's being fed/pushed into the dynamic range.
IMO, your settings are actually very saturated. I understand that's your preference, but that doesn't change the fact that its a saturated tune. Your emphasis (as you always state) seems to be on "Road Feel" and road feel is not the same as slip/grip feel. Road feel is always there, even with the default settings. Enhancing that feel adds more texture to the wheel, which some people like and prefer, but that texture comes at an expense. It's masks subtle slip feel. It's the reason why you've been searching for the dynamic weight in cornering. The game has it, but it's getting lost in the oversaturation. IMO, road feel is more like an amenity, nice to have, but not something that should take priority over the feeling of grip and tire slip. Road feel isn't either. Bumps, curbs, and track texture are important but in an indirect way. What is important is being able to feel how those things affect your grip levels. If you only feel the road, but can't feel how it's affecting grip, then what's the point? Like everything concerning FFB. It's a balancing game, and personal preference dictates what you prioritize.
Poirqc is right above, oversaturation is basically another form of clipping. It's not going to show in telemetry, but the concept is the same. If you push too much into the dynamic by running high gains and multipliers, your wheel will always be receiving a strong FFB signal. Then, when you enter a corner, it can't communicate the subtle signal variances of the changing grip, because the volume controls are cranked too high. Because of hardware limitations, a wheel isn't capable of communicating everything at the same time, because some forces operate in the same spectrum as others. The more you push into your range, the more signals begin to overlap. Too much overlap, and subtle feel gets lost.
https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM
The Video Clearly shows the Result of Reducing RAC,
RAC was set to 50 the Graph Line went down to 50% of tbe Box Volume but so did the FFB strenth, I also tested 75 and 92 and for each value tested the Graph line Raised up accordingly but so did the power of the FFB.
Depending on how your settings are you may get different results because you may be using another part of the FFB system at 100+ to bolster the FFB system and get extra power from other than the RAC:confused: but for Me thats Not how I do it.
its all about personal taste and how you choose to use the FFB system.
I use No Setting over 100/1.00 and Low Fx, Fy and i adjust the FFB strength per car + or - with the Car Masters and if Needed adjust Feel of the Car with + or - Fx,Fy, SoP Etc.
IMO High RAC is the Beginning of Oversaturation.
and as stated before XB1 FFB output is stronger than PS4/PC so this Means XB1 users will have to Set Lower RAC by default because of this Fact:yes:
inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 14:57
What is your in-car Master Scale set at? Are you leaving them at Jack's default?
The Xb1 has stronger FFB, and has been a little hard to figure out since MS' update. Try lowering the game FF to 90. I don't understand what you mean about RAG being 1 .1 .85. Is that a value? What do you actually have it set to?
As for the wheel setting, I'm not sure, because it's different on PS4, where the wheel FF overrides the game FF. But if it works properly on Xb1, then your wheel FF is just an external volume control that you can use to attenuate the strength output from the wheel. Since it's external, it's affect on FFB is benign, meaning it won't affect your dynamic range/balance. So basically, you have to get your FFB signal balanced in the game first, then you can lower the wheel FF if needed. But if the wheel FF works correctly on Xb1 and isn't overriding the game FF, then I'd suggest leaving the wheel set at 100, until you get your in game FFB sorted out. It's one less control in the equation, and since it's a benign operator, there's no since in fiddling with it until you have the dynamic range you're looking for in game.
Haiden
I currenty leave the masters at the JS default - Sorry the RAG figures mean to say RA settings are 1 and .1 and .85
So with the wheel is it better to set at 100 so you can modulate it later or Aut , as this would affect the feel you get from in the game and its this bit that confuses me
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 15:02
Clipping and saturation are not the same thing. RAC has little, if anything, to do with saturation. High gains and multipliers (SG, RAG, TF, FF, Master Scales, etc) are the primary cause of saturation. You can lower RAC to 50 and still have an oversaturated wheel, because RAC is just limiting the top end of the output. It's not doing anything to limit what's being fed/pushed into the dynamic range.
IMO, your settings are actually very saturated. I understand that's your preference, but that doesn't change the fact that its a saturated tune. Your emphasis (as you always state) seems to be on "Road Feel" and road feel is not the same as slip/grip feel. Road feel is always there, even with the default settings. Enhancing that feel adds more texture to the wheel, which some people like and prefer, but that texture comes at an expense. It's masks subtle slip feel. It's the reason why you've been searching for the dynamic weight in cornering. The game has it, but it's getting lost in the oversaturation. IMO, road feel is more like an amenity, nice to have, but not something that should take priority over the feeling of grip and tire slip. Road feel isn't either. Bumps, curbs, and track texture are important but in an indirect way. What is important is being able to feel how those things affect your grip levels. If you only feel the road, but can't feel how it's affecting grip, then what's the point? Like everything concerning FFB. It's a balancing game, and personal preference dictates what you prioritize.
Poirqc is right above, oversaturation is basically another form of clipping. It's not going to show in telemetry, but the concept is the same. If you push too much into the dynamic by running high gains and multipliers, your wheel will always be receiving a strong FFB signal. Then, when you enter a corner, it can't communicate the subtle signal variances of the changing grip, because the volume controls are cranked too high. Because of hardware limitations, a wheel isn't capable of communicating everything at the same time, because some forces operate in the same spectrum as others. The more you push into your range, the more signals begin to overlap. Too much overlap, and subtle feel gets lost.
We're not talking about power. We're talking about saturation. They are not the same thing.
IIRC, RAC even comes after TF and the force scales that feed the spindle. So how exactly does it have anything to do with saturation? Yes, RAC limits the power output. But by then the dynamic is already over saturated. If you have a really tall and overweight person (their weight being the saturation and RAC being their height), making them shorter doesn't make them any less overweight, does it? The only way to eliminate the weight is reduce what they're being fed. :)
Edit: I understand FFB comes down to personal tastes. And I'm not saying yours or anyone else's settings are right or wrong. But I do think that it's important to be clear about what settings and scales actually do and how they affect the FFB. Otherwise, people that are still trying to find their personal sweet spot with FFB, will have a more difficult time navigating the settings, because they're misinformed about the affects. Power and saturation are not the same thing, and if you don't understand the distinction, then you're going to have trouble tuning.
LMAO... Ok you win... What ever you say.. But Excessive power is Oversaturation:confused:
Its simple once you reduce the excessive power being pushed through the system you are able to Fine tune because the Excesive power doe's Not Dissern it just over powers EVERY THING.... it will Not Choose to put More power to this and less to that.... RAC sets the Base Power For the FFB effects stsyem, Curbs Bumps etc.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 15:05
Haiden
I currenty leave the masters at the JS default - Sorry the RAG figures mean to say RA settings are 1 and .1 and .85
So with the wheel is it better to set at 100 so you can modulate it later or Aut , as this would affect the feel you get from in the game and its this bit that confuses me
If the FFB Effects are Too Strong then you can Reduce the RAB and the FFB effects Curbs, Bumps will get lighter without Reducing wheel weight... The wheel weight may increase slightly because the center of the wheel will get tighter due to less bleed off time.
Haiden
I currenty leave the masters at the JS default - Sorry the RAG figures mean to say RA settings are 1 and .1 and .85
So with the wheel is it better to set at 100 so you can modulate it later or Aut , as this would affect the feel you get from in the game and its this bit that confuses me
Oh, that's right. I forgot the Xb1 has the Auto setting. This isn't any option when the wheel is in PS4 mode. I would set it to Auto, and then make your adjustments in-game. That may be the source of your problem. I know, when playing F1 2015, if I don't set the wheel to auto, the FFB is super heavy, regardless of what I have the in-game scales set to. But when it's on auto, it's fine. Same thing might be happening here. Try the Auto setting, and see if that helps.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 15:17
XB1 puts out Stronger FFB so this Means by Default XB1 users will have to set Kower RAC values due to this fact.
IMO High RAC is the Beginning of over saturation.
LMAO... Ok you win... What ever you say.. But Excessive power is Oversaturation:confused:
Its simple once you reduce the excessive power being pushed through the system you are able to Fine tune because the Excesive power doe's Not Dissern it just over powers EVERY THING.... it will Not Choose to put More power to this and less to that.... RAC sets the Base Power For the FFB effects stsyem, Curbs Bumps etc.
Yes, RAC limits power. But power and saturation are not the same thing. RAC comes after TF and the spindle forces, which means the forces have already been calculated, so there is nothing to fine tune at that point.
The difference between power and saturation is this... (and force streams is just a term I'm using here to illustrate the point. Think of it as whatever you're feeding/pushing into the dynamic range.)
Setting #1 = 10 force streams with the volume knob set to 100
Setting #2 = 20 force streams with the volume knob set to 100
Same power level, but setting #2 is more saturated than setting #1, right? Because we're pushing more into the dynamic range.
Now...
Setting #3 = 10 force streams with the volume knob set to 100
Setting #4 = 20 force streams with the volume knob set to 75
Here the power levels are different, lower in #4. So yes, the final output is weaker in #4, but that doesn't change the fact that 20 streams are being pushed into the dynamic. That's 20 streams overlapping each other, and muddying up the feel. The only difference between settings #2 and #4 is that the muddy feel is weaker in #4. But it's still muddy. This is why power and saturation are not the same thing.
Jack Spade
29-04-2016, 16:50
I'm using the classic settings with SoP Diff only. I've tried, repeatedly, to use SoP Lat, but my lap times always suffer whenever I do, so I've just given up on it. It works in the same space as Fy, and I don't like that. It confusing me. I prefer the clean lateral forces of Fy.
With my current globals, I typically don't need to modify anything (other than the rounding required due to the different scale increments between PC and console. I usually round up). I've bumped the Master Scale up a click or two on a few cars, though. But that's mainly because I like driving those with the GT rim, which is heavier and provides more leverage, so the wheel feels lighter. If I drive the same car with the F1 rim, his default Master is fine.
This is one of the things why FFB feel is a matter of taste. I know of my thread and PMs many people prefer SopLat versions. I donīt have statistical data but
my guess is itīs about 50:50. Actually the sum of side load force is identical in all versions, though the values may not suggest but trust me it is. What really
is different about it is the way SopLat interacts with Mz, as it leaves Mz a bit more room to breathe. I describe the "force shape" on the steering angle of Mz/Fy
as -O- and Mz/Fy+SopLat as -U-. At turn in the wheel feels a little bit lighter and at the same time a bit more dynamic. Thereīs a better chance to feel a tad more
understeer, but on the other side the Classic version seems to feel a bit more organic at this stage to put it this way. Again, at the end of the day itīs just a matter
of taste.
This is one of the things why FFB feel is a matter of taste. I know of my thread and PMs many people prefer SopLat versions. I donīt have statistical data but
my guess is itīs about 50:50. Actually the sum of side load force is identical in all versions, though the values may not suggest but trust me it is. What really
is different about it is the way SopLat interacts with Mz, as it leaves Mz a bit more room to breathe. I describe the "force shape" on the steering angle of Mz/Fy
as -O- and Mz/Fy+SopLat as -U-. At turn in the wheel feels a little bit lighter and at the same time a bit more dynamic. Thereīs a better chance to feel a tad more
understeer, but on the other side the Classic version seems to feel a bit more organic at this stage to put it this way. Again, at the end of the day itīs just a matter
of taste.
I figured the sum of the load was the same, because the main difference I saw in the settings was that it seemed like when SoP lateral was added, Fy was being decreased. But, with regards to Fy and SoP Lat sharing the same space, does it change what the lateral forces are being derived from? Meaning, although the sum is the same, is the combination communicating the same thing in terms of grip? Or is that just the difference in preference you're referring to?
Also, I used to wonder if the Lat version was more beneficial with the heavier class cars with higher centers of gravity, and less so with low set open wheelers. Do you think that's the case?
Haiden
I currenty leave the masters at the JS default - Sorry the RAG figures mean to say RA settings are 1 and .1 and .85
So with the wheel is it better to set at 100 so you can modulate it later or Aut , as this would affect the feel you get from in the game and its this bit that confuses me
Oh, Jack's post reminded me. I do lower Mz on the Formula A, because I was getting a little bit of oscillation on high speed straights. IIRC, I think his classic settings have Mz at 40. I lowered it to 36. But based on his post above, if I was running the SoP Lat settings, I probably wouldn't have felt the need to lower Mz.
Jack Spade
29-04-2016, 17:12
I figured the sum of the load was the same, because the main difference I saw in the settings was that it seemed like when SoP lateral was added, Fy was being decreased. But, with regards to Fy and SoP Lat sharing the same space, does it change what the lateral forces are being derived from? Meaning, although the sum is the same, is the combination communicating the same thing in terms of grip? Or is that just the difference in preference you're referring to?
Also, I used to wonder if the Lat version was more beneficial with the heavier class cars with higher centers of gravity, and less so with low set open wheelers. Do you think that's the case?
Fy is derived from the front tires, SopLat from the rear (translated to make it usable on a FFB steering wheel, pure FFB world here),
different sources=different behavior.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 17:16
Yes, RAC limits power. But power and saturation are not the same thing. RAC comes after TF and the spindle forces, which means the forces have already been calculated, so there is nothing to fine tune at that point.
The difference between power and saturation is this... (and force streams is just a term I'm using here to illustrate the point. Think of it as whatever you're feeding/pushing into the dynamic range.)
Setting #1 = 10 force streams with the volume knob set to 100
Setting #2 = 20 force streams with the volume knob set to 100
Same power level, but setting #2 is more saturated than setting #1, right? Because we're pushing more into the dynamic range.
Now...
Setting #3 = 10 force streams with the volume knob set to 100
Setting #4 = 20 force streams with the volume knob set to 75
Here the power levels are different, lower in #4. So yes, the final output is weaker in #4, but that doesn't change the fact that 20 streams are being pushed into the dynamic. That's 20 streams overlapping each other, and muddying up the feel. The only difference between settings #2 and #4 is that the muddy feel is weaker in #4. But it's still muddy. This is why power and saturation are not the same thing.
Exactly what ive been saying...This is why i use No Setting above 100/1.00 its all about balance you have to balance the 3 parts of the FFB system to work together.
But any and all Feel free to test... Just Lower your RAC to 0, 50 then set 100 and post your findings.
but any way i will post more when i get off work.
Exactly what ive been saying...This is why i use No Setting above 100/1.00 its all about balance you have to balance the 3 parts of the FFB system to work together.
But any and all Feel free to test... Just Lower your RAC to 0, 50 then set 100 and post your findings.
but any way i will post more when i get off work.
232319
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 17:59
IJS... My Woman don't Nit pick bicker at Me like you do:confused:...Im Straight... Get it... Meaning im Straight as in Married Heterosexual just in case you might be Having Fancy thoughts:hopelessness:
IJS... My Woman don't Nit pick bicker at Me like you do:confused:...Im Straight... Get it... Meaning im Straight as in Married Heterosexual just in case you might be Having Fancy thoughts:hopelessness:
Well, she has known you longer. It's amazing what people can get used to over time. Anyway....
232326
Now... back to our regularly scheduled program--the FFB Chronicles continue.
inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 19:50
Please let's keep on track you guys have had the best well mannered thread going don't #=%"& it up now
Please let's keep on track you guys have had the best well mannered thread going don't #=%"& it up now
Sorry. I'm bored. I work from home on Fridays.:sorrow:
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 20:32
Sorry. I'm bored. I work from home on Fridays.:sorrow:
http://i.imgur.com/x1Jnr9w.jpg
LMAO!!!:hopelessness::hopelessness::hopelessness:
Haiden
I currenty leave the masters at the JS default - Sorry the RAG figures mean to say RA settings are 1 and .1 and .85
So with the wheel is it better to set at 100 so you can modulate it later or Aut , as this would affect the feel you get from in the game and its this bit that confuses me
Anyway... Try using the Auto feature, and then adjust FF/TF. I used to play on Xb1 with a TX wheel. I was running FF/TF at 100/65, but I wasn't using Jack's settings. Sorry. I can't remember what the globals were, and no longer have them written down. This was also long before the current tire model, though, and definitely pre-6.0 and the Microsoft's OS update that affects FFB. I wonder if that MS update is what's making it hard for you to dial it in.
Jezza819
29-04-2016, 21:03
Oh, Jack's post reminded me. I do lower Mz on the Formula A, because I was getting a little bit of oscillation on high speed straights.
I got more than just a little bit. With Mz at 30, once I got above 160mph or so, the wheel was shaking so hard I could barely hold onto it. I've had to back it down to 10 and I can still feel a little but at least I can hold the wheel well enough to steer. Backing down steering gain will fix it too but the wheel goes very light.
I also have bad oscillation when braking on a couple of cars but I haven't went in to see if lowering Mz will fix them too.
tennenbaum
29-04-2016, 21:19
XB1 puts out Stronger FFB so this Means by Default XB1 users will have to set Kower RAC values due to this fact.
IMO High RAC is the Beginning of over saturation.
sorry grimey when i disagree, the lower you set RAC the earlier you saturate (when RA is active, especially with longer RAB).
I got more than just a little bit. With Mz at 30, once I got above 160mph or so, the wheel was shaking so hard I could barely hold onto it. I've had to back it down to 10 and I can still feel a little but at least I can hold the wheel well enough to steer. Backing down steering gain will fix it too but the wheel goes very light.
I also have bad oscillation when braking on a couple of cars but I haven't went in to see if lowering Mz will fix them too.
Are you using Jack's in-car settings? If so, then the issue has to be in your globals, because I'm using his classic in-car settings with a CSW-v2, and I get no oscillation in the FA (or any car for that matter). The FA is one of my favorite cars to drive. Even on rough tracks, I don't get any oscillation.
Jezza819
29-04-2016, 21:36
Are you using Jack's in-car settings? If so, then the issue has to be in your globals, because I'm using his classic in-car settings with a CSW-v2, and I get no oscillation in the FA (or any car for that matter). The FA is one of my favorite cars to drive. Even on rough tracks, I don't get any oscillation.
Back when I used his numbers I had it too. Of course I have no idea what my global numbers were back then. I have your numbers on one of my presets on the V2 so I'll try it again with yours and Jack's just to see what happens.
tennenbaum
29-04-2016, 22:00
Fy is derived from the front tires, SopLat from the rear (translated to make it usable on a FFB steering wheel, pure FFB world here),
different sources=different behavior.
different behavior... yes: Fy still constant because front tires still holding the load, while rear steps out (oversteer), so sop lat ligthens up... so you can feel it with FFB. (without sop lat you had not felt it).
though - nobody said pcars FFB is trivial - while sop lat lightens causing wheel weight gets less, the pinion-rack reaction to oversteer (if you don't correct before) counteracts with lighter wheel weight, literally called 'force feed back'... such changes in milliseconds from forces that add to each other versus forces that counteract each other millisecs later make it as fascinating as tricky to make your mind up what suits your taste and senses most.
to cut it short: JS is right.
pcars FFB complexity can be confusing...
the cure: switch off everything and dial in single values in step by step one after the other.
for those being in denial about experiencing saturation without knowing, just switch off the RA module entirely and check whats happening in the telemetry hud.
check telemetry hud, because when you're in the saturation zone anyway, you won't feel much difference in wheel weight, if you switch swich off RA module, especially RAC, because of instead of RAC doing to the soft limiting (= saturation) electric/mechanical saturation at wheel level will do the same job (saturation).
tennenbaum
29-04-2016, 22:11
Are you using Jack's in-car settings? If so, then the issue has to be in your globals, because I'm using his classic in-car settings with a CSW-v2, and I get no oscillation in the FA (or any car for that matter). The FA is one of my favorite cars to drive. Even on rough tracks, I don't get any oscillation.
i see it the same. must be globals, because JS Fxyzm and spindle/sop master scales values do not clip or saturate.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 22:20
There are Many different ways to use the FFB system...Each person is entitled to use the system in the way that works Best for them.
My way of using the FFB system is to treat all the sliders as volume controls. I don't see the in car FFB sliders as Multipliers.. If they were to be used as Multipliers then SMS would have to or Should have given us a value that the sliders multiply by so we could adjust the in car settings properly... Because there has Never been any value given that these sliders Multiply by i treat them as volume controls...No one knows what the exact value of the in car sliders are actually equal to...Ex is 100 = to 100% power out put or is it 50% power output and 200 = 100%... No one knows so in any event i use 100 because its the middle ground.
I used to think that the TF and in Car FFB were blended at the SG I Now believe that this is false information that All the FFB Forces are combined at the RAC which is why RAC reduces TF and FFB effects when reduced...Since the RAC works as it does this opens a question about steering gain because it seems to be a Redundent setting as it seems to have the same effect that RAC has.when reduced:confused:
The FFB system is there for all to test... set TF 100, SG 1.00 RAB to what ever you choose and set RAC to 0 when you test this you will find that your wheel goes Limp while you don't lose all wheel weight 95% of the wheel weight and road Bump Feel is Gone!!! there is No Notable FFB or Resistance to wheel movement.
Now set the RAC to 50, 75 and take Note how the wheel Weight and FFB increase according to the RAC value set:yes: This i am sure of and any 1 that has a doubt could be sure too its a simple test wont even take 5min:eagerness:
Once you test this you will see that RAC will + or - TF and FFB Effects by the same amount at the same time...Ex: at RAC 0 there is Little to No wheel weight or FFB effects RAC 50 TF and FFB effects will both be increased... Therefore you Can use RAC to balance your FFB power to avoid FFB being over saturated:yes: very simple.
This is why it makes No sense to me when tweeks try to cut the over saturation at the steering gain:confused: The steering gain is the last part of the FFB chain before its sent to the wheel...its SG then straight to the wheel No More Filters:no: this means that while you may have stopped the over saturated FFB from reaching the wheel the FFB within the game Can be or is Still over saturated:yes: Therefore i stress balancing the FFB so that you can use SG 1.00 because when you have to reduce it because your FFB is over powered and lacking feel this is indicative that there is a problem some where prior in the FFB chain that needs balancing.
How ever you choose to use the FFB system the basics of how things work within the FFB system Do Not Change just because you have your own way of using it.
Even though some of the Tweek #'s i see some use don't make sense to Me and they seem unbalanced IMO I find No Fault with any 1 about the Tweek or Tweeking Method that they use, My Tweek, JS Tweek, No Tweek don't matter to Me as long as they are happy with what they use I'm Happy with and for them... i don't push My tweek or mention it constantly in every other post like some do... if you like it you like it, if you don't you don't... I'm just simply here to post and help those that want or need a little tweeker assistance... I'm especially Not here to Nit pick/Bicker with some one on the internet... This Means You Haiden:no: as your the only nit picker in here... you or anyone else can Track back through your post and see it:strawberry:... Like i said I'm straight that's just that.
Since there is No Official SMS Blue Print to how the FFB System Really works the only Truth is its any 1's best Guess and if it works for you then fine if Not then keep tweeking until you find what works...
There is no Right there is no Wrong there is only what works for you... But dont be offended if it doesnt work for others... every 1 has different FFB Taste:victorious:
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 22:43
sorry grimey when i disagree, the lower you set RAC the earlier you saturate (when RA is active, especially with longer RAB).
:loyal: Sorry but based on My testing i have to Disagree with you.
Like i suggested Do the simple RAC test... How can you saturate more with less:confused:
No fancy talk just Reduce the RAC to 0, 50 ,then set 75,100 and post your findings.
Do the same test with SG same #values then post your findings.
The only thing that can be said is when you reduced the forces decreased and when you increased the #values the Power increased... very simple test wont even take 5 min.
tennenbaum
29-04-2016, 22:48
There are Many different ways to use the FFB system...Each person is entitled to use the system in the way that works Best for them.
My way of using the FFB system is to treat all the sliders as volume controls. I don't see the in car FFB sliders as Multipliers.. If they were to be used as Multipliers then SMS would have to or Should have given us a value that the sliders multiply by so we could adjust the in car settings properly... Because there has Never been any value given that these sliders Multiply by i treat them as volume controls...No one knows what the exact value of the in car sliders are actually equal to...Ex is 100 = to 100% power out put or is it 50% power output and 200 = 100%... No one knows so in any event i use 100 because its the middle ground.
I used to think that the TF and in Car FFB were blended at the SG I Now believe that this is false information that All the FFB Forces are combined at the RAC which is why RAC reduces TF and FFB effects when reduced...Since the RAC works as it does this opens a question about steering gain because it seems to be a Redundent setting as it seems to have the same effect that RAC has.when reduced:confused:
The FFB system is there for all to test... set TF 100, SG 1.00 RAB to what ever you choose and set RAC to 0 when you test this you will find that your wheel goes Limp while you don't lose all wheel weight 95% of the wheel weight and road Bump Feel is Gone!!! there is No Notable FFB or Resistance to wheel movement.
Now set the RAC to 50, 75 and take Note how the wheel Weight and FFB increase according to the RAC value set:yes: This i am sure of and any 1 that has a doubt could be sure too its a simple test wont even take 5min:eagerness:
Once you test this you will see that RAC will + or - TF and FFB Effects by the same amount at the same time...Ex: at RAC 0 there is Little to No wheel weight or FFB effects RAC 50 TF and FFB effects will both be increased... Therefore you Can use RAC to balance your FFB power to avoid FFB being over saturated:yes: very simple.
This is why it makes No sense to me when tweeks try to cut the over saturation at the steering gain:confused: The steering gain is the last part of the FFB chain before its sent to the wheel...its SG then straight to the wheel No More Filters:no: this means that while you may have stopped the over saturated FFB from reaching the wheel the FFB within the game Can be or is Still over saturated:yes: Therefore i stress balancing the FFB so that you can use SG 1.00 because when you have to reduce it because your FFB is over powered and lacking feel this is indicative that there is a problem some whee prior in the FFB chain that needs balancing.
How ever you choose to use the FFB system the basics of how things work within the FFB system Do Not Change just because you have your own way of using it.
Even though some of the Tweek #'s i see some use don't make sense to Me and they seem unbalanced IMO I find No Fault with any 1 about the Tweek or Tweeking Method that they use, My Tweek, JS Tweek, No Tweek don't matter to Me as long as they are happy with what they use I'm Happy with and for them... i don't push My tweek or mention it constantly in every other post like some do... if you like it you like it if you don't you don't... I'm just simply here to post and help those that want or need a little tweeker assistance... I'm especially Not here to Nit pick/Bicker with some one on the internet... This Means You Haiden:no: as your the only nit picker in here... you or anyone else can Track back through your post and see it:strawberry:... Like i said I'm straight that's just that.
Since there is No Official SMS Blue Print to how the FFB System Really works the only Truth is its any 1's best Guess and if it works for you then fine if Not then keep tweeking until you find what works...
There is no Right there is no Wrong there is only what works for you... But dont be offended if it doesnt work for others... every 1 has different FFB Taste:victorious:
it seems paradox: of course, if you lower RAC you get less wheel wheight. though (more) saturation happens nevertheless. think of it like this, one way you don't feel nuances with a light wheel ( beside a constant weight at a low level), while with with higher RAC you feel not much nuances at a high level wheel wheight. haiden explained it imo quite well, yes, even with saturation with a heavy wheel you get road feel, but that's the 'breaking constant saturation effect" resulting from RAG that "fights" constant saturation, due to its origin purpose... though (tricky enough) RAG signals get 'clamped' with RAC, which transforms even RAG signals (that were derived to transform saturation into non saturation) into saturated forces. i know i sound like a bubble-head, but while all sliders are kind of 'volume knobs', it doesn't mean they just "add on" to each other.
GrimeyDog
29-04-2016, 23:29
it seems paradox: of course, if you lower RAC you get less wheel wheight. though (more) saturation happens nevertheless. think of it like this, one way you don't feel nuances with a light wheel ( beside a constant weight at a low level), while with with higher RAC you feel not much nuances at a high level wheel wheight. haiden explained it imo quite well, yes, even with saturation with a heavy wheel you get road feel, but that's the 'breaking constant saturation effect" resulting from RAG that "fights" constant saturation, due to its origin purpose... though (tricky enough) RAG signals get 'clamped' with RAC, which transforms even RAG signals (that were derived to transform saturation into non saturation) into saturated forces. i know i sound like a bubble-head, but while all sliders are kind of 'volume knobs', it doesn't mean they just "add on" to each other.
I will agree to Disagree:yes: Less power pushed through = higher saturation will not compute to Me... But as long as every one is happy with the FFB of their choice thats all that really matters...My RAC 75 for Me is the best FFB to date... and WOW i kid you Not since i mounted the wheel to the RS1 its even better because the frame is sooo ridged i don't lose any of the FFB to Set up Flex...Im Luving it..
But at the end of the day every tweek ever made is just a reflection of what the maker thought it should feel like... It will be a beautiful day if SMS were to ever put out a FFB tuning guide...I think im right, JS thinks he is Right, you think your wright,Haiden is Right Hell we are all right in our own Regards IMO.
My Wheel feels Dam Good...Im Scared for it to feel and get any better id never leave My Man kave!!!
tennenbaum
29-04-2016, 23:44
I will agree to Disagree:yes: Less power pushed through = higher saturation will not compute to Me... But as long as every one is happy with the FFB of their choice thats all that really matters...My RAC 75 for Me is the best FFB to date... and WOW i kid you Not since i mounted the wheel to the RS1 its even better because the frame is sooo ridged i don't lose any of the FFB to Set up Flex...Im Luving it..
But at the end of the day every tweek ever made is just a reflection of what the maker thought it should feel like... It will be a beautiful day if SMS were to ever put out a FFB tuning guide...I think im right, JS thinks he is Right, you think your wright,Haiden is Right Hell we are all right in our own Regards IMO.
My Wheel feels Dam Good...Im Scared for it to feel and get any better id never leave My Man kave!!!
besides our elaborated discussions about a flat line that doesn't look like a flat line due to RAG and fast Fz and SOPdiff, i can assure you your 'grimey' settings became wellknown even in German forums... most people prefer a decent amount of saturation, so let's cheer on that!
GrimeyDog
30-04-2016, 00:08
besides our elaborated discussions about a flat line (saturation) - no matter at what level due to RAC- that doesn't look like a flat line due to RAG and fast Fz and SOPdiff, i can assure you your 'grimey' settings became a ''trademark" even in German forums...(most people prefer a decent amount of saturation), so let's cheer on that!
LOL.. Really i never knew... i saw a few post and got a few in boxes i had to read through google translate... LOL i have No clue... Im just happy that the FFB is coming together and i am really enjoying pcars now...im getting back to racing instead of constantly tweeking trying to find The FFB sweet spot.
But I now since 10.0 and RAC 75 i have the best feel in the wheel ever!!! Not too heavy with just the right amount of FFB and fight for Me...FFB taste is also very dependent on upper body strength also:yes: some one with not so much muscle cant deal with strong FFB for extended periods of time.
Also with 75 RAC My wheel temp barely gets to 90*F even after hours of use... average Room temp now is 72 to 75 so the wheel is even running cooler...
GrimeyDog
30-04-2016, 01:23
besides our elaborated discussions about a flat line that doesn't look like a flat line due to RAG and fast Fz and SOPdiff, i can assure you your 'grimey' settings became wellknown even in German forums... most people prefer a decent amount of saturation, so let's cheer on that!
The FFB opinion and little debates is what has brought the FFB progress soo far along in this thread:yes: I can even say Haiden:yes:helped Me to Realize that i Needed to Retweek... I had gotten very Board and was losing faith that the FFB would ever be this good after they Changed 6.0!!! I really had not bothered to check everything with 8.0 and had Not Realized that the GM FFB with PS4 had been Negated and Rendered useless for Fanatec wheels:stupid:!!! It was Haden who prodded Me to Check into this and that's when i came up with the RAC 75 tweek which by far gives the best feel for Me on Pcars to date:applause:
I also know just because My FFB feels good to Me doesn't Mean it can be better... after reading poirqs thread 3 weeks ago talking about Scoops i Re-Tweeked My Scoops based on his thread suggestions and the FFB Feel Got even better:encouragement:... I have and do try other peoples Tweek work but i like the feel of mine better.
Kudoes to all that Tweek, Debate and Stand their Tweek work it is you that keeps the FFB getting better and better:applause:
time to do some racing Man kave upgrades are finally finished...for now...until i get board again thats when i do most of My upgrading other than being board its impossible for me to upgrade because I'm too busy Racing;)
My next upgrade will be a P.C with Ultra specs!!! so i can Run everything at Max... But i will wait and see how Assetto Corsa is first... if its that good between Pcars,Dirt rally and AC i can hold off a bit longer on the P.C:victorious:
Titzon Toast
30-04-2016, 01:27
:
I'm especially Not here to Nit pick/Bicker with some one on the internet... This Means You Haiden:no: as your the only nit picker in here... you or anyone else can Track back through your post and see it:strawberry:... Like i said I'm straight that's just that.
232344
GrimeyDog
30-04-2016, 02:07
232344
this has me over here Literally Crying Laughing!!! I'm running off the road in a public lobby im laughing sooo hard!!!
Shrugggs... i didn't call any 1 any such thing... but so be it if that's how you interpret it... IJS i cant figure out for what reason would there be for a Man to Troll a Man???
232344
As much as I got a laugh out of that lets not get them started again.
GrimeyDog
30-04-2016, 04:08
As much as I got a laugh out of that lets not get them started again.
All i will say is follow the comment trail and you will see the trolling start... its been going for a while but i have largely been just laughing at it just ignoring it...Even my Wife while sitting here reading the Comments asked was He trolling Me a bit ago...I just said i hope not cause I'm straight:strawberry:...I just dunno...just follow the comment trail its all thee to see...Shrugggs
All i will say is follow the comment trail and you will see the trolling start... its been going for a while but i have largely been just laughing at it just ignoring it...Even my Wife while sitting here reading the Comments asked was He trolling Me a bit ago...I just said i hope not cause I'm straight:strawberry:...I just dunno...just follow the comment trail its all thee to see...Shrugggs
My comment wasn't directed at any one person grimey. Just saying it didn't need any help to get started again.
All i will say is follow the comment trail and you will see the trolling start... its been going for a while but i have largely been just laughing at it just ignoring it...Even my Wife while sitting here reading the Comments asked was He trolling Me a bit ago...I just said i hope not cause I'm straight:strawberry:...I just dunno...just follow the comment trail its all thee to see...Shrugggs
My comment wasn't directed at any one person grimey. Just saying it didn't need any help to get started again.
We've talked FFB daily, for about a year now... The subject is still going strong.
There's nothing wrong with couple meme. It's quite fun actually! :D
Roger Prynne
30-04-2016, 11:53
Just stop it guys, or you know what will happen.
Titzon Toast
30-04-2016, 12:24
Just stop it guys, or you know what will happen.
A Thunderdome-style showdown?
Two men enter, one man leaves...
Or perhaps a romantic dinner somewhere?
gotdirt410sprintcar
30-04-2016, 13:21
Its a new day play nice please. But guess what i'm going to a USAC silver crown race in Toledo speedway whoop whoop never seen the silver crown cars before. Been up there for the sprints but never silver crown cars. They have big block's in them should be good 100 lap feature http://2000gt.net/Competition/USAC/SprintCar01.jpg
Its a new day play nice please. But guess what i'm going to a USAC silver crown race in Toledo speedway whoop whoop never seen the silver crown cars before. Been up there for the sprints but never silver crown cars. They have big block's in them should be good 100 lap feature http://2000gt.net/Competition/USAC/SprintCar01.jpg
That's going to be a good time!!!
Just stop it guys, or you know what will happen.
Its all good nothing to see here....lol
We've talked FFB daily, for about a year now... The subject is still going strong.
There's nothing wrong with couple meme. It's quite fun actually! :D
Until the forum popo steps in lol
All i will say is follow the comment trail and you will see the trolling start... its been going for a while but i have largely been just laughing at it just ignoring it...Even my Wife while sitting here reading the Comments asked was He trolling Me a bit ago...I just said i hope not cause I'm straight:strawberry:...I just dunno...just follow the comment trail its all thee to see...Shrugggs
OMG! Will you give it a rest, dude? I thought this idiocy was over.
Just stop it guys, or you know what will happen.
A Thunderdome-style showdown?
Two men enter, one man leaves...
Or perhaps a romantic dinner somewhere?
This always fix things! :D
Besides, there's no (insert various moderator actions ;) ) material here!
Roger Prynne
30-04-2016, 15:38
I'm not talking about banning anyone, but I will close this thread if some guys don't stop acting like little kids.
inthebagbud
30-04-2016, 16:14
I have been doing some testing and thought I would give an update following all the advice ,
The lightness I talked about in my first post I now believe was not due to any feedback setting giving me a driving feel but was just because what I was using was wrong
I have gone back to basics and turned off RA and Scoop settings to start with and do not use any SC settings
First point was to solve the conundrum of what setting to have on the wheel, obviously off was not an option but I would like the option to be able to adjust on the wheel sometimes especially if I am having to drive with default setup like in the challenges . So I decided to use AUT and when I am happy with the feel I can then find a numerical value on the wheel ffb that is similar.
Started with in game ffb 50 and tested TF at 50, 75, 100 with various in car settings of default, classic and Fy and check the ffb line driving and throwing the car around and found the 75 TF to be better . I even found that at 100 with some in car settings the line was not as good as at 75 .
At this point I didn't have real tyre feel but could feel the car movement and this was the same even at 100, but wasn't an issue as I would look at this issue later.
I plumped to use js classic at this stage to give me an accurate reference point instead of inventing my own
It was noted at this point I did have slight clipping
Next step was to mess with in car ffb settings which consisted of multiplying the master scales by 1.5 and 2 to see the effects . This made the clipping increase but did improve the experience with the feel of the wheel , again the clipping could wait
I then added sop which had 2 effects.....it reduced my laptimes and also reduced the clipping.
Next up was to test with js other settings Fy 66 % etc with and without sop but didn't like them and in particular I didn't like the sop which all had sop lateral.
So it was back to classic with sop . Removing the sop also gives me the jarring effect and the lighter turning feel that started this testing so at least I know where it comes from.
At this point with having ffb in car at 50 it was rime to see if changes to ffb would make a difference lowering below 50 as you would expect lightened the wheel and going above 50 made the wheel heavier but using 100 did not double the weight as I presume the clipping stopped the weight increasing and found 60 to be the spot where the wheel weight stopped increasing.
At this point I am at ffb 60 tf 75 with classic .
The next testing will involve classic settings multiplying by 1.5 and 2 to see the effect this has .
Then it's a move on to get rid of the clipping .... any suggestions
Jack Spade
30-04-2016, 17:31
I have been doing some testing and thought I would give an update following all the advice ,
The lightness I talked about in my first post I now believe was not due to any feedback setting giving me a driving feel but was just because what I was using was wrong
I have gone back to basics and turned off RA and Scoop settings to start with and do not use any SC settings
First point was to solve the conundrum of what setting to have on the wheel, obviously off was not an option but I would like the option to be able to adjust on the wheel sometimes especially if I am having to drive with default setup like in the challenges . So I decided to use AUT and when I am happy with the feel I can then find a numerical value on the wheel ffb that is similar.
Started with in game ffb 50 and tested TF at 50, 75, 100 with various in car settings of default, classic and Fy and check the ffb line driving and throwing the car around and found the 75 TF to be better . I even found that at 100 with some in car settings the line was not as good as at 75 .
At this point I didn't have real tyre feel but could feel the car movement and this was the same even at 100, but wasn't an issue as I would look at this issue later.
I plumped to use js classic at this stage to give me an accurate reference point instead of inventing my own
It was noted at this point I did have slight clipping
Next step was to mess with in car ffb settings which consisted of multiplying the master scales by 1.5 and 2 to see the effects . This made the clipping increase but did improve the experience with the feel of the wheel , again the clipping could wait
I then added sop which had 2 effects.....it reduced my laptimes and also reduced the clipping.
Next up was to test with js other settings Fy 66 % etc with and without sop but didn't like them and in particular I didn't like the sop which all had sop lateral.
So it was back to classic with sop . Removing the sop also gives me the jarring effect and the lighter turning feel that started this testing so at least I know where it comes from.
At this point with having ffb in car at 50 it was rime to see if changes to ffb would make a difference lowering below 50 as you would expect lightened the wheel and going above 50 made the wheel heavier but using 100 did not double the weight as I presume the clipping stopped the weight increasing and found 60 to be the spot where the wheel weight stopped increasing.
At this point I am at ffb 60 tf 75 with classic .
The next testing will involve classic settings multiplying by 1.5 and 2 to see the effect this has .
Then it's a move on to get rid of the clipping .... any suggestions
Clipping.........as stated on the first page of my thread, tweaker files are optimized for maximum output level, actually they are on the
edge already. Multiplying what... Mz or Fx or Master Scale? TF at 75 as the global multiplier sets all these individual cars settings in
a suitable force range before following processing tools can do their job. In combo with my global setting this FFB system IMO is maxed out,
all you have to do is set SG at an appropriate level (you probably know what I think about FFB master and FF on the CSW v2)
tennenbaum
30-04-2016, 19:40
For newcomers who stumble across this threat that got some visibility in the FFB community (thanks to Grimey!) trying to find some rough summaries of what's discussed here, i just updated one of my previous longer posts that contained some of my basic findings and learnings about the FFB. I didn't want to give it any importance, since most stuff became for sure common knowledge in the meantime. However i added a bit of an explanation... Without graphs! :rolleyes: of how the Relative Adjust works. "Rough summary" doesn't really express it. It's rather a small chunk of the entire pCars FFB universe. And as always errors and wrong assumptions are very possible, as well as everything said isn't representative.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620
inthebagbud
30-04-2016, 20:06
Clipping.........as stated on the first page of my thread, tweaker files are optimized for maximum output level, actually they are on the
edge already. Multiplying what... Mz or Fx or Master Scale? TF at 75 as the global multiplier sets all these individual cars settings in
a suitable force range before following processing tools can do their job. In combo with my global setting this FFB system IMO is maxed out,
all you have to do is set SG at an appropriate level (you probably know what I think about FFB master and FF on the CSW v2)
I am multiplying only the master scales so as to keep a good reference point. Having used a tx wheel and now a fanatec , having followed this thread and others I am convinced that the xbox does not deal with ffb the same as pc or ps4
l (you probably know what I think about FFB master and FF on the CSW v2)
Sorry no I don't but if it helps me I would like to know , sorry if this is going over old ground
gotdirt410sprintcar
30-04-2016, 20:27
This is a threat lol sorry you mean so much tennenbaum and SMS should take what you say and put to a guide and I been drinking
GrimeyDog
30-04-2016, 20:45
I am multiplying only the master scales so as to keep a good reference point. Having used a tx wheel and now a fanatec , having followed this thread and others I am convinced that the xbox does not deal with ffb the same as pc or ps4
Sorry no I don't but if it helps me I would like to know , sorry if this is going over old ground
Im on XBox 1/ Pcars/CSW v2 w/Hub as i type and im Not Having any issues... I dont Know what you Have your GM FFB at but Im Not Guessing or Aproximating i can tell you you Can Not Run GM FFB 100 or even 50 on XB1 you Must Turn it Down between 25 and 30... 30 would be Max
The Only way you can Use GM FFB 50 is if you use the Auto FFB on the wheel but all that Really does is over ride GM FFB and turn it down:confused: ...Get the picture No matter how you do it the GM FFB has to be Reduced... Try 25 to 30 .... I plugged in My Same PS4 settings and im Running 107.xxx on the Glen with the Stock Ruf as i type... Im Not Guessing. GM FFB must go down!!!.. Im on XB1 typing... only turned on My Box to try to help you figure out whats going on.
Edit: Im Not getting any of the Clipping your talking about??? Im Using My Same RAC 75 Settings that I use on PS4 on XB1 only Diff is XB1 25 to 30 GM FFB then you can set your on wheel FFB to your taste(i use 75 or 80)
tennenbaum
30-04-2016, 22:18
This is a threat lol sorry you mean so much tennenbaum and SMS should take what you say and put to a guide and I been drinking
lol! d/t lol!
GrimeyDog
30-04-2016, 22:43
Tenenbaum you Have to go back to the Lab and Figure out why Reducing RAC and Steering Gain Have the Same Effect Now:confused:.... Thing s Have Changed its been a Bit since i have been in the Global Settings picking them apart to see what they do but I'm sure things have Changed... Seems that RAC and SG are doing the same thing at least on PS4 with Fanatec wheels!!! For XB1 it Seems the same as it has always been.
Tenenbaum you Have to go back to the Lab and Figure out why Reducing RAC and Steering Gain Have the Same Effect Now:confused:.... Thing s Have Changed its been a Bit since i have been in the Global Settings picking them apart but to see what they do but im sure things have Changed... Seems that RAC and SG are doing the same thing at least on PS4 with Fanatec wheels!!! For XB1 i it eems the same as it has always been.
Do you mean that they change the wheel weight? They both will except in different places in the ffb chain. Difference is rac does change the I guess ill call it starting weight for the ffb but it has other effects when used with rab and rag. Sg just increases/decreases the whole thing.
GrimeyDog
01-05-2016, 00:33
Do you mean that they change the wheel weight? They both will except in different places in the ffb chain. Difference is rac does change the I guess ill call it starting weight for the ffb but it has other effects when used with rab and rag. Sg just increases/decreases the whole thing.
Exactly on PS4 with the Fanatec wheels RAC and SG seem to do Have the Exact same effect just at different parts of the steering chain....I'm talking end result is the same because RAC sets the starting point for the FFB strength level... but if RAC is set correctly then using SG at 1.00 should be No problem...IMO PS4 SG has become a Redundant setting because of the way GM FFB works with Fanatec wheels now.
This is Not a bad thing its actually a good thing... lets say you have RAC set Low to avoid Clipping the FFB and weight feels good but its a tad bit weaker than you prefer...You can go up a tad on the SG to get back some wheel weight and FFB strength at the end of the Chain without fear of in game clipping... This should actually work on All wheel and could be used as a external adjustment at the for wheel strength just like the on wheel FFB setting on Fanatec wheels... This would only help providing the RAC is set accordingly...(My guess 80 or below... just a guess)
Just stop it guys, or you know what will happen.
A Thunderdome-style showdown?
Two men enter, one man leaves...
Or perhaps a romantic dinner somewhere?
For newcomers who stumble across this threat that got some visibility in the FFB community (thanks to Grimey!) trying to find some rough summaries of what's discussed here, i just updated one of my previous longer posts that contained some of my basic findings and learnings about the FFB. I didn't want to give it any importance, since most stuff became for sure common knowledge in the meantime. However i added a bit of an explanation... Without graphs! :rolleyes: of how the Relative Adjust works. "Rough summary" doesn't really express it. It's rather a small chunk of the entire pCars FFB universe. And as always errors and wrong assumptions are very possible, as well as everything said isn't representative.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620
Could you put that post in your signature. It'll make it easier to track.
Exactly on PS4 with the Fanatec wheels RAC and SG seem to do Have the Exact same effect just at different parts of the steering chain....I'm talking end result is the same because RAC sets the starting point for the FFB strength level... but if RAC is set correctly then using SG at 1.00 should be No problem...IMO PS4 SG has become a Redundant setting because of the way GM FFB works with Fanatec wheels now.
This is Not a bad thing its actually a good thing... lets say you have RAC set Low to avoid Clipping the FFB and weight feels good but its a tad bit weaker than you prefer...You can go up a tad on the SG to get back some wheel weight and FFB strength at the end of the Chain without fear of in game clipping... This should actually work on All wheel and could be used as a external adjustment at the for wheel strength just like the on wheel FFB setting on Fanatec wheels... This would only help providing the RAC is set accordingly...(My guess 80 or below... just a guess)
Sg is definitely not redundant. Yes you could go up to increase the forces as long as you aren't seeing/getting clipping or already heavily saturated. Now if youre already at the saturation point ALL youre going to get is a heavier wheel with a loss in the fine details. Basically once saturated the small details don't get separated anymore and just add wheel weight. With the t300 and jacks settings anything over 1.0 for steering gain that's exactly what happens. In the case you described I think youd be better off turning up the ffb master if all you were looking for was a stronger wheel and ffb. Now if you didn't have the hud close to filled or it was constantly hitting the top or bottom yes id use sg. My rac is .85 ive tried setting it lower and higher lower you start to lose small details and higher just gets heavier with no real advantage at least with the rest of the settings I'm using.
Here's my startup setting.. pretty happy with those :)
Controller settings
steering sensitivity: 100 (very important!)
steering dz: 0
break sensitivity: 100
break dz: 0
accelerator sensitivity: 100
accelerator dz: 0
Speed Sensitivity: 0
Controller Filtering: 0
force feedback: 75
Advanced: Off
Global FFB I keep all Default Except
Tire Force: 28 (anything above 35 and your cars feels too heavy)
Low Speed spring Coefficient: 0.05
Low speed spring Saturation: 0.05 (Figured this one today!!! prevents the spinning out steering lock glitch and allows to do drifting, doughnuts etc)
If some cars feel too heavy/light (rare) adjust the Master Scale around +-26
Here's my startup setting.. pretty happy with those :)
Controller settings
steering sensitivity: 100 (very important!)
steering dz: 0
break sensitivity: 100
break dz: 0
accelerator sensitivity: 100
accelerator dz: 0
Speed Sensitivity: 0
Controller Filtering: 0
force feedback: 75
Advanced: Off
Global FFB I keep all Default Except
Tire Force: 28 (anything above 35 and your cars feels too heavy)
Low Speed spring Coefficient: 0.05
Low speed spring Saturation: 0.05 (Figured this one today!!! prevents the spinning out steering lock glitch and allows to do drifting, doughnuts etc)
If some cars feel too heavy/light (rare) adjust the Master Scale around +-26
What wheel are you using?
a t300RS and it's set to either 900 or 1080 degrees.. I always forget (4 lights)
a t300RS and it's set to either 900 or 1080 degrees.. I always forget (4 lights)
Youre setting sensitivity that high because you really want a faster steering ratio. Id set it between 60-70 and use a much faster ratio than stock for most cars. 9-10 is probably a good starting point.At 100 it will make it twitchy but with the stock ratios its not as noticeable. Also the low speed settings only work at very low speeds I forget the exact number but its like 20 mph and down.I would highly recommend using jacks car ffb settings and check out the oscarolim site. The car ffb settings and many t300 users incuding myself have their settings posted there. The defaults are ok but it can be made a whole lot better.
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/ Theres the link for the site with the settings.
GrimeyDog
01-05-2016, 03:30
Sg is definitely not redundant. Yes you could go up to increase the forces as long as you aren't seeing/getting clipping or already heavily saturated. Now if youre already at the saturation point ALL youre going to get is a heavier wheel with a loss in the fine details. Basically once saturated the small details don't get separated anymore and just add wheel weight. With the t300 and jacks settings anything over 1.0 for steering gain that's exactly what happens. In the case you described I think youd be better off turning up the ffb master if all you were looking for was a stronger wheel and ffb. Now if you didn't have the hud close to filled or it was constantly hitting the top or bottom yes id use sg. My rac is .85 ive tried setting it lower and higher lower you start to lose small details and higher just gets heavier with no real advantage at least with the rest of the settings I'm using.
This i Agree with other wheels on PS4 but with the V2 it seems Redundant...RAC and SG seem to have the same effect just at different parts of the FFB chain.
Youre setting sensitivity that high because you really want a faster steering ratio. Id set it between 60-70 and use a much faster ratio than stock for most cars. 9-10 is probably a good starting point.At 100 it will make it twitchy but with the stock ratios its not as noticeable. Also the low speed settings only work at very low speeds I forget the exact number but its like 20 mph and down.I would highly recommend using jacks car ffb settings and check out the oscarolim site. The car ffb settings and many t300 users incuding myself have their settings posted there. The defaults are ok but it can be made a whole lot better.
I had a hard time figuring out defaults that I could be happy with but I will try lowering a bit steering sensitivity and tweaking the ratios and FFB independently for each car. The low speed settings were causing my wheel to go crazy after a spin out. locking left or right and impossible to turn. I'm glad I found that. I will keep tweaking using that database. Thanks!
I had a hard time figuring out defaults that I could be happy with but I will try lowering a bit steering sensitivity and tweaking the ratios and FFB independently for each car. The low speed settings were causing my wheel to go crazy after a spin out. locking left or right and impossible to turn. I'm glad I found that. I will keep tweaking using that database. Thanks!
Most of us on here have spent months.lol That's why I recommended jacks car settings I use the classic but there are other options from him. Nice part is just put them in and they work very good. After that its just a matter of getting the wheel set right. That wheel alone is enough to figure out and if youre trying to figure out both at the same time you will chase yourself in circles. If youre going to try and figure it out yourself id start by turning the rab down to at least .05 from .10 it makes a big difference on the t300. Rab will sort of make the wheel grab set that high. Good luck
This i Agree with other wheels on PS4 but with the V2 it seems Redundant...RAC and SG seem to have the same effect just at different parts of the FFB chain.
That's because youre saturated already so you get weight. Not saying there is anything wrong with that but that's why youre getting that result with those two settings. If you were out of saturation the two would feel different. Rac you would notice more of a change in starting wheel weight and sg you would have an overall change in all the forces until you reach saturation then you would just get more weight then an actual ffb change. Rac is more of a starting point ang sg is a volume control.
Sg is definitely not redundant. Yes you could go up to increase the forces as long as you aren't seeing/getting clipping or already heavily saturated. Now if youre already at the saturation point ALL youre going to get is a heavier wheel with a loss in the fine details. Basically once saturated the small details don't get separated anymore and just add wheel weight. With the t300 and jacks settings anything over 1.0 for steering gain that's exactly what happens. In the case you described I think youd be better off turning up the ffb master if all you were looking for was a stronger wheel and ffb. Now if you didn't have the hud close to filled or it was constantly hitting the top or bottom yes id use sg. My rac is .85 ive tried setting it lower and higher lower you start to lose small details and higher just gets heavier with no real advantage at least with the rest of the settings I'm using.
That's because youre saturated already so you get weight. Not saying there is anything wrong with that but that's why youre getting that result with those two settings. If you were out of saturation the two would feel different. Rac you would notice more of a change in starting wheel weight and sg you would have an overall change in all the forces until you reach saturation then you would just get more weight then an actual ffb change. Rac is more of a starting point ang sg is a volume control.
I don't think they're redundant, either. Depending on your globals, you can start losing dynamic range with SG above 1.10. However, when I was using the DRI @wheel setting to reduce the Fanatec drag, I was able to run SG higher, which I assume was due to how DRI lightens the wheel. But when I turned DRI off and started using PWM/PWM2 for drag reduction, the higher SG was too much and I started bringing it down. I haven't updated my setting page in a while, but I'm running it at 1.00 now.
Jack Spade
01-05-2016, 05:42
I am multiplying only the master scales so as to keep a good reference point. Having used a tx wheel and now a fanatec , having followed this thread and others I am convinced that the xbox does not deal with ffb the same as pc or ps4
Sorry no I don't but if it helps me I would like to know , sorry if this is going over old ground
FFB is directly derived from car/tire physics, it is identical on all platforms, multiplying the master scales will be clipping territory on X-Box, PS4 and PC.
If thereīs a difference on the system itīs probably somewhere in the global section and this is where you should concentrate upon. BTW 100% FFB master
and FF will give you the smallest deazone and full dynamic on your CSW v2.
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 07:25
Youre setting sensitivity that high because you really want a faster steering ratio. Id set it between 60-70 and use a much faster ratio than stock for most cars. 9-10 is probably a good starting point.At 100 it will make it twitchy but with the stock ratios its not as noticeable. Also the low speed settings only work at very low speeds I forget the exact number but its like 20 mph and down.I would highly recommend using jacks car ffb settings and check out the oscarolim site. The car ffb settings and many t300 users incuding myself have their settings posted there. The defaults are ok but it can be made a whole lot better.
exactly. steering sensitivity 60-70, and shorter/smaller steering ratio. oscar olim site for the jack spade in car settings, plus globals from mrpwr (also on oscar olims site), and you should be fine. you can also use JS global FFB settings, i would just reccomend not to use FFB 100 (in the globals) with the T300. don't go higher than 75.
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 07:33
Most of us on here have spent months.lol That's why I recommended jacks car settings I use the classic but there are other options from him. Nice part is just put them in and they work very good. After that its just a matter of getting the wheel set right. That wheel alone is enough to figure out and if youre trying to figure out both at the same time you will chase yourself in circles. If youre going to try and figure it out yourself id start by turning the rab down to at least .05 from .10 it makes a big difference on the t300. Rab will sort of make the wheel grab set that high. Good luck
xtro, you got lucky, with only two posts from morpwr you just got the fastest ticket into FFB heaven:D
with the seetings according to individual in car settings from JS and the globals from morpwr you can see a well composed FFF signal in the telemetry hud. Now, when you want your wheel stronger or less strong don't start to fumble with TF or the in car masters, or SG, instead just use the global FFB slider (somewhere between 25 and 75 to your taste) like a 'volume knob' to set the absolute FFB strength of the wheel to your liking.
(If you try to change wheel weight with other things than the global FFB you can quickly loose the 'balance' of the FFB, because all the different stages in the signal chain interfere with each other.) There is only one thing you may want to keep in mind: when you like low FFB strength, e.g. FFB of let's say 35, you can increase DeadZoneRemoval a bit to keep the wheel tight on straights.
Of course there are other ways to come to a good FFB, too. When you like a heavier and very active wheel with a lot of road feel and sensations you should give Grimeys setting a try.
GrimeyDog
01-05-2016, 08:37
That's because youre saturated already so you get weight. Not saying there is anything wrong with that but that's why youre getting that result with those two settings. If you were out of saturation the two would feel different. Rac you would notice more of a change in starting wheel weight and sg you would have an overall change in all the forces until you reach saturation then you would just get more weight then an actual ffb change. Rac is more of a starting point ang sg is a volume control.
IMO im Not Saturated at all... Im soo Far from being Saturated that i can use in Car Masters at 200 and still Not get any Clipping... That just a point of View that has been Stated and i usually dont bother to dispute it because i dont feel like debating the matter... I will agree my Last tweek was saturated especially after update 9.0 and i missed the fact that the GM FFB had been Negated for fanatec wheels... But the 10.0 RAC 75 is Not Saturated at all....
inthebagbud
01-05-2016, 09:06
Update part 2
After comments on update 1 I revisited the wheel/game ffb dilemma this morning
I had finished last night with game 60 and wheel at AUT,
the first part was to see if 100/100 would work but this was no good as it gave a massive oscillation, massive weight to the wheel with no feel
So which should be the master control at 100 was the question I needed to answer , generally through the testing I alternated from between the wheel at 100 and game at 100 and lap times where pretty much the same with either but I was consistently faster and more confident with the game at 100 .
I ended up with 100 game and 40 on the wheel , still at this point with no RA or SK settings
Next SK was introduce at .85 and .31 taken from the checker , which immediate lightened up the wheel which I didn't like so ffb on wheel was turned up by 5 to 45 and I reduced my laptime by a clear half a second.
Next up is RA settings.
As always any comments please
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 09:46
That's because youre saturated already so you get weight. Not saying there is anything wrong with that but that's why youre getting that result with those two settings. If you were out of saturation the two would feel different. Rac you would notice more of a change in starting wheel weight and sg you would have an overall change in all the forces until you reach saturation then you would just get more weight
then an actual ffb change. Rac is more of a starting point ang sg is a volume control.
Grimey, i think morpwr's analyse is correct. with your relatively high tire force setting (Fxyzm, SoP, master scalers and TF are all multipliers!) you get (hockeystick-)compression in the RAG/B/C module. With RAC you set the "height" of the hockeystick, thinking in terms of the i/o curve. Since realtive wheel weight finds its analogy with the size of the surface under the i/o curve, when you increase RAC you actually increase the size of the pane/surface, thus wheel weight. Of course by increasing SG you do the same thing. SG just scales (lowers or heightens) your i/o curve just another time. Insofar RAC and SG are actually just multipliers in a row and look redundant at first sight. The point is, as much as they are both scalers, when you change RAC you change the compression factor (shape of hockeystick) too. And with different compression you get different relative wheelweight...different relative wheel weight that you then increase or decrease with SG, thus leveling your relative wheel weight to a higher or lower absolute FFB strength, aka absolute wheel torque.
Now talking "lab speech" here, the entire thing here doesn't translate so clearly into an actual FFB feeling that you can easily check, evaluate and greelight it. Why? Because when you lower RAC you increase compression at the same time. That sounds wrong, but is true. So with lower RAC you get actually more RELATIVE wheelweight, BUT at the same time the lower RAC value outputs this higher relative weigth to an absolute lower level. The result is of course the feeling og less wheel weight (even while the relative weight got higher). Here is the catch: now when you lift your low absolute RAC level again by the help of SG you lift up the entire higher relative weight. So, given you level everything to 1.0 in the end to achieve maximum dynamic range, you would get a different FFB feel when (instead of reamplifying a lower RAC) you use higher RAC (thus less compression) in combination with lower SG.
Again, with changes of RAC between 0.75 and 0.98 the change of compression is minimal compared to the change of absolute signal level. In relative terms, the change of absolute signal levels has always a stronger more immediate detectable effect than compression effects... However, since we're trying to max out the FFB nuances can make a difference. you can test the seemingly paradox relationship between relative and absolute wheel weight like this: keep all tireforces to your usual (high) values, reduce RAC to 0.2, and level everything up to 1.00 with SG and you'll get much more wheel weight... if the effect doesn't show clear enough, increase RAG and RAB (just to make sure the test result is not compromised too much from faster spikes (your high Fz value creates lots of them) that pass the RA module un-altered, thus with full signal strength, no matter how high or low you set RAC.
In short: RAC influences not only wheel weight in general, but also the degree of compresion, thus the chracteristic of the i/o curve. SG is just a volume knob. (let's forget for the moment that SG can cause non linear scalings as well, but in a different context).
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 10:12
Update part 2
After comments on update 1 I revisited the wheel/game ffb dilemma this morning
I had finished last night with game 60 and wheel at AUT,
the first part was to see if 100/100 would work but this was no good as it gave a massive oscillation, massive weight to the wheel with no feel
So which should be the master control at 100 was the question I needed to answer , generally through the testing I alternated from between the wheel at 100 and game at 100 and lap times where pretty much the same with either but I was consistently faster and more confident with the game at 100 .
I ended up with 100 game and 40 on the wheel , still at this point with no RA or SK settings
Next SK was introduce at .85 and .31 taken from the checker , which immediate lightened up the wheel which I didn't like so ffb on wheel was turned up by 5 to 45 and I reduced my laptime by a clear half a second.
Next up is RA settings.
As always any comments please
i would build up the test step by step the same way. (yes, first without RAC.) especially since me/we T300 users don't know how the CSW ingests different in game FFB master values. i think grimey knows best. to linearize i/o curve first and than compensating the little loss of wheel weight with higher absolute signal by going from 40 to 45 is exactly the way i think it should be done.
balancing relative wheel weight and absolute FFB strength towards each other is essential. Being aware of the diffrence between relative weight and absolute FFB force provides the playground to experiment with different settings of RAG/B/C.
When your settings are well balanced, and given that you are not primarely looking for a lot compression done with RAC, you can switch RA on and off, so can you compare what RA 'really' can do, in terms of adding vividness and road feel, while your general FFB "weight" doesn't change much.
Alternatively, after you found a nice balance, just feed RA with much higher tireforces (while keeping RA values the same. Then switch RA on/off to experience what happens if you get saturation (by compression, wanted or unwanted)
And when you experiment with RAC, remember you can benefit from RAG (finetuned with RAB), even without the soft-limitting / compression effect of RAC. Just set RAC to values higher than the level of your tireforces. So, in case your tireforces don't exceed 1.00, set RAC to >1.00.
When you want to experiment with SC (which i would not recoomend) set the tireforces higher than 1.00 but less than 2.00, set RAC to max = 2.00 (200). This way RAC keeps the tireforces unaltered, and comression then is purely manipulated by SCHI and SCFO. Then, when you get bored, try a mix of soft limiting with RAC and compression with SC. If this doesn't tickle your scientific approach enough, change the ratio between TF and SG...:D
How to know the value of your tireforces? switch off RA module and SC, look for a track with a spot where you get maximum tireload, best only with Fy at work, switch FxzMz and SoP off, set Fy to 100, in car Master spindle scale to something between 18 and 26, and TF (in globals) to 100, depending on car and track you get a signal on the telemetry hud somewhere close to max (=1.00) without or only little clipping. Bingo. Do the math: 1.00 (FY) x e.g 0.2 (in car spindle master scale) x 1.00 (TF) = 0.2. Now multiply 0.2 x 5 (virtual scaling factor) and you get 1.00, which is the value that represents maximum possiple value in the normalized dynamic range corridor (bandwidth) of 0.00 - 1.00, thus no clipping. When you also know that instead of Fy/SMS/TF 100/20/100 you can set 100/26/75 (acc. 1.00/0.26/.075) or any other values that multiply to 1.00 (using the virtual scaling factor) you're ready to mess with the entire FFB system without loosing orientation. For example creating tire forces much higher than 1.00 that live in the "invisible headroom" before you normalize them (getting compression) with RAC and/or SC into the output to wheel corridor of 0.00 - 1.00. Getting this far, you also have the answer why you can set SCFO to 20... ;-)
NB: with my posts i often try to put details in context with the entire FFB system, so new readers can get a bit of a better orientation. The longer the thread becomes, the harder it gets to find the stuff you're sometimes looking for. So please forgive the sheer amount of letters, it's meant for people to pick out what can be of particular interest for them.
inthebagbud
01-05-2016, 11:06
Update part 3 with an advice request
In my last post I had just introduced SK settings and had seen a nice reduction in lap time. BUT I have clipping
Review of settings
PWM -0.06
PWMS 0.03
WPS 0.04
DRR .05
DRF 0.02
SK 0.85
SR 0.31
On wheel ffb 40, game ffb 100 tf 75 classic settings in car
So now was time to introduce RA settings. We'll what can I see other than I didn't really like them, ok I could see how it shaped the curve and reduced clipping, but the underlying feel was that jangly/juddering feeling . I used 1.5, .1, .85 as well as 1.1 , .1, 0.85/0.75 and whilst I could get withing 2 tenths of my time without RA it was more of a struggle and took longer, whereas I remove RA and I was straight back to my best times.
So at this point it's no RA unless somebody can point me in another direction.
So the advice request is without RA how do I remove the last bit of clipping, ok it's not massive but it needs to go . I tried the ffb and in car masters route but I loose the current feel , which is good
Of for some track time but if anybody has any ideas let them flow
I had a hard time figuring out defaults that I could be happy with but I will try lowering a bit steering sensitivity and tweaking the ratios and FFB independently for each car. The low speed settings were causing my wheel to go crazy after a spin out. locking left or right and impossible to turn. I'm glad I found that. I will keep tweaking using that database. Thanks!
Yeah, it's a good way to deal with your wheel behavior when you're stopped.
Update part 3 with an advice request
In my last post I had just introduced SK settings and had seen a nice reduction in lap time. BUT I have clipping
Review of settings
PWM -0.06
PWMS 0.03
WPS 0.04
DRR .05
DRF 0.02
SK 0.85
SR 0.31
On wheel ffb 40, game ffb 100 tf 75 classic settings in car
So now was time to introduce RA settings. We'll what can I see other than I didn't really like them, ok I could see how it shaped the curve and reduced clipping, but the underlying feel was that jangly/juddering feeling . I used 1.5, .1, .85 as well as 1.1 , .1, 0.85/0.75 and whilst I could get withing 2 tenths of my time without RA it was more of a struggle and took longer, whereas I remove RA and I was straight back to my best times.
So at this point it's no RA unless somebody can point me in another direction.
So the advice request is without RA how do I remove the last bit of clipping, ok it's not massive but it needs to go . I tried the ffb and in car masters route but I loose the current feel , which is good
Of for some track time but if anybody has any ideas let them flow
If you like it as it is, try:
RAG 1(Should leave the signal as is)
RAB 0,01(wheel won't decenter itself)
RAC 0,XX.
You'll feel the RA module, but not so much. Maybe not enough for it to be disturbing. I didn't gave RAC a value. Start from 1 and lower it slowly until it works just enough to remove the clipping you want.
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 13:40
IMO im Not Saturated at all... Im soo Far from being Saturated that i can use in Car Masters at 200 and still Not get any Clipping... That just a point of View that has been Stated and i usually dont bother to dispute it because i dont feel like debating the matter... I will agree my Last tweek was saturated especially after update 9.0 and i missed the fact that the GM FFB had been Negated for fanatec wheels... But the 10.0 RAC 75 is Not Saturated at all....
paradox enough, setting in car masters to 200 without getting clipping kind of proves that someting is happening that one may characterize as "saturation", at least some kind of compression takes place: the high tireforces don't steam out and vaporize. they just get scaled down (squeezed) by RAC to where RAC is set. That's how and where input forces get scaled into output forces in a way which can be called "saturation" depending on how strong the squeezing (compression) happens.
Though, admittedly, practically it feels almost completely the same as if these overpouring tireforces actually had vaporized. insofar my arguing is rather from a theoretical perspective than of practical use. Rather meant as a sidenote: saturation is not defined as such because it must happen at 100% signal level. saturation can happen at any level, and saturation can also even happen only to some signals (here the "slower" tire force signals) within the signal-stream, but must not happen to all forces. that way saturation effects can be masked to an extend you can't detect the saturation any more. Insofar we are a bit caught in terms and definitions.
paradox enough, setting in car masters to 200 without getting clipping kind of proves that someting is happening that you may characterize as "saturation", at least some kind of compression takes place: the high tireforces don't steam out and vaporize. they just get scaled down (squeezed) by RAC to where RAC is set. That's how and where input forces get scaled into output forces in a way which can be called "saturation" depending on how strong the squeezing (compression) happens.
Though, admittedly, practically it feels almost completely the same as if these overpouring tireforces actually had vaporized. insofar my arguing is rather from a theoretical perspective than of practical use. Rather meant as a sidenote: saturation is not defined as such because it must happen at 100% signal level. saturation can happen at any level, and saturation can also even happen only to some signals (here the "slower" tire force signals) within the signal-stream, but must not happen to all forces. that way saturation effects can be masked to an extend you can't detect the saturation any more. Insofar we are a bit caught in terms and definitions.
I agree.
At this point, we should all agree on terms, and update the first post with them. It's going to be easier to track for everyone.
IMO im Not Saturated at all... Im soo Far from being Saturated that i can use in Car Masters at 200 and still Not get any Clipping... That just a point of View that has been Stated and i usually dont bother to dispute it because i dont feel like debating the matter... I will agree my Last tweek was saturated especially after update 9.0 and i missed the fact that the GM FFB had been Negated for fanatec wheels... But the 10.0 RAC 75 is Not Saturated at all....
Just remember saturation and clipping don't necessarily go hand in hand.
Update part 3 with an advice request
In my last post I had just introduced SK settings and had seen a nice reduction in lap time. BUT I have clipping
Review of settings
PWM -0.06
PWMS 0.03
WPS 0.04
DRR .05
DRF 0.02
SK 0.85
SR 0.31
On wheel ffb 40, game ffb 100 tf 75 classic settings in car
So now was time to introduce RA settings. We'll what can I see other than I didn't really like them, ok I could see how it shaped the curve and reduced clipping, but the underlying feel was that jangly/juddering feeling . I used 1.5, .1, .85 as well as 1.1 , .1, 0.85/0.75 and whilst I could get withing 2 tenths of my time without RA it was more of a struggle and took longer, whereas I remove RA and I was straight back to my best times.
So at this point it's no RA unless somebody can point me in another direction.
So the advice request is without RA how do I remove the last bit of clipping, ok it's not massive but it needs to go . I tried the ffb and in car masters route but I loose the current feel , which is good
Of for some track time but if anybody has any ideas let them flow
Try using ,85rac and rag at 1.50 and set rab at .o2 . Rab gives a heavy grabby feeling if set high. So start low and see if that help. You may need to play with the sr and sk a little too when you change the rac,rag. Rab probably not. Its a nasty circle lol. The other thing is I would try turning off wps if possible it hurts the lower weak forces you want to feel. Give it a shot and see what happens.
I agree.
At this point, we should all agree on terms, and update the first post with them. It's going to be easier to track for everyone.
I agree. FFB is personal--no right or wrong, as far as the end result is concerned--but without a common language, we're just confusing people that come to the thread trying to get their settings sorted out.
I agree.
At this point, we should all agree on terms, and update the first post with them. It's going to be easier to track for everyone.
Yes wheel weight seems to be a constant point of confusion for new people.
Titzon Toast
01-05-2016, 16:02
I agree. FFB is personal--no right or wrong, as far as the end result is concerned--but without a common language, we're just confusing people that come to the thread trying to get their settings sorted out.
A shiny new thread with dedicated sections and links in the OP would be better I reckon.
If you were new to this game or had just bought a wheel you'd find it very hard to get definitive settings or information from looking through all 250+ pages here.
xtro, you got lucky, with only two posts from morpwr you just got the fastest ticket into FFB heaven:D
hahah I am getting quickly hooked into this ffb tweaking and I must say it's quite fascinating to read and learn from all of your guys research. I did follow the great advice morpwr gave me for the RAB settings and putting this higher allowed me to increase back tire force. It also made the counter steering more progressive and easier to catch for some reason (i dont have your technical knowledge on all this).
I am still preferring a 100 sensitivity steering as the basis for my setup compared to 70. I prefer to get as close to zero filtering on my input then tune the car if it is too twitchy but thats just me. Today I'm gonna test low FFB vs full TF or the opposite to see what feels more right. :)
A shiny new thread with dedicated sections and links in the OP would be better I reckon.
If you were new to this game or had just bought a wheel you'd find it very hard to get definitive settings or information from looking through all 250+ pages here.
Well, i guess that after doing a summary of all the information in this thread, we could ask a mod to edit the first post of the Official guide, in the general section (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?29907-Force-Feedback-Guide-for-Project-CARS&p=969970&viewfull=1#post969970)?
hahah I am getting quickly hooked into this ffb tweaking and I must say it's quite fascinating to read and learn from all of your guys research. I did follow the great advice morpwr gave me for the RAB settings and putting this higher allowed me to increase back tire force. It also made the counter steering more progressive and easier to catch for some reason (i dont have your technical knowledge on all this).
I am still preferring a 100 sensitivity steering as the basis for my setup compared to 70. I prefer to get as close to zero filtering on my input then tune the car if it is too twitchy but thats just me. Today I'm gonna test low FFB vs full TF or the opposite to see what feels more right. :)
Not saying you can't use 100 sensitivity, but Steering Sens. at 50 is actually no filtering. Input to car steering ratio is 1:1. Sensitivity above 50 means you need to move steering wheel on your desk less, to move the steering wheel or the virtual car.
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 16:17
Yeah, it's a good way to deal with your wheel behavior when you're stopped.
If you like it as it is, try:
RAG 1(Should leave the signal as is)
RAB 0,01(wheel won't decenter itself)
RAC 0,XX.
You'll feel the RA module, but not so much. Maybe not enough for it to be disturbing. I didn't gave RAC a value. Start from 1 and lower it slowly until it works just enough to remove the clipping you want.
are you sure if RAG is set to 1.0 it leaves the signal as it is? or in other words, the RAG signal is then the same as the original signal that RAG is derived from?
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 16:22
Update part 3 with an advice request
In my last post I had just introduced SK settings and had seen a nice reduction in lap time. BUT I have clipping
Review of settings
PWM -0.06
PWMS 0.03
WPS 0.04
DRR .05
DRF 0.02
SK 0.85
SR 0.31
On wheel ffb 40, game ffb 100 tf 75 classic settings in car
So now was time to introduce RA settings. We'll what can I see other than I didn't really like them, ok I could see how it shaped the curve and reduced clipping, but the underlying feel was that jangly/juddering feeling . I used 1.5, .1, .85 as well as 1.1 , .1, 0.85/0.75 and whilst I could get withing 2 tenths of my time without RA it was more of a struggle and took longer, whereas I remove RA and I was straight back to my best times.
So at this point it's no RA unless somebody can point me in another direction.
So the advice request is without RA how do I remove the last bit of clipping, ok it's not massive but it needs to go . I tried the ffb and in car masters route but I loose the current feel , which is good
Of for some track time but if anybody has any ideas let them flow
i don't use RAG either. (but it's a temporary mood).
I wonder why reducing the in car master(s) didn't cure the clipping. May be we must see all settings to detect what's going on (it happened so often to me that i forgot a slider to set to zero or the appropriate value, and doubted the entire signal chain ;-)
are you sure if RAG is set to 1.0 it leaves the signal as it is? or in other words, the RAG signal is then the same as the original signal that RAG is derived from?
It's been a while, my memory could play trick on me.
From a concept point of view, it would make sense to leave the signal as is, but bleed it based on X RAB, and compress it when needed, around RAC. As always, a hands on test will confirm it.
I think the best way to test it, even, would be to only use RAG. The wheel will decenter itself, but it doesn't matter for testing purpose. It would be even easier for you tennebaum, since you don't run RAC currently, if i'm not mistaken.
If you enable RAG at 1, but RAB and RAC to 0, does it change the ffb or it's the same?
(how's that for offloading work to someone else! ;) )
hahah I am getting quickly hooked into this ffb tweaking and I must say it's quite fascinating to read and learn from all of your guys research. I did follow the great advice morpwr gave me for the RAB settings and putting this higher allowed me to increase back tire force. It also made the counter steering more progressive and easier to catch for some reason (i dont have your technical knowledge on all this).
I am still preferring a 100 sensitivity steering as the basis for my setup compared to 70. I prefer to get as close to zero filtering on my input then tune the car if it is too twitchy but thats just me. Today I'm gonna test low FFB vs full TF or the opposite to see what feels more right. :)
Just keep the ffb master below the default 75 for our wheel. Have you tried a faster steering ratio yet? At 100 sensitivity you're actually speeding up the steering right off center. But that wasn't the reason I used it. You will find the t300 has a soft spot a few degrees off center in either direction sensitivity helped with that. Its a long learning curve but rewarding when you start to understand it. Even after spending all the time most of us have spent here there are still things to learn. Best thing you can do is aks questions all the guys here will be happy to help.
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 17:28
It's been a while, my memory could play trick on me.
From a concept point of view, it would make sense to leave the signal as is, but bleed it based on X RAB, and compress it when needed, around RAC. As always, a hands on test will confirm it.
I think the best way to test it, even, would be to only use RAG. The wheel will decenter itself, but it doesn't matter for testing purpose. It would be even easier for you tennebaum, since you don't run RAC currently, if i'm not mistaken.
If you enable RAG at 1, but RAB and RAC to 0, does it change the ffb or it's the same?
(how's that for offloading work to someone else! ;) )
:D :D
I don't run any RA at the moment. Hhm, you see me frown, because i it puzzles me this very minute how to proove that RAG = 1.00 leaves the signal unchanged... :D
[/B]
:D :D
I don't run any RA at the moment. Hhm, you see me frown, because i it puzzles me this very minute how to proove that RAG = 1.00 leaves the signal unchanged... :D
Indeed. You're used to your FFB already. Since you're not running with RAs, the second you enable RAG only, without RAB and RAC, you'll know right away if it's the same or if it's spiced (https://www.google.ca/search?q=sauce+coq&espv=2&biw=1520&bih=829&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAzpWSu7nMAhWklYMKHQx8CZgQ_AUIBigB).
Here's my take:
RA and SG are Gain stage. They don't modulate the signal the same way but you set them the same way:
< 1: attenuate
1 : as is
> 1: amplify
SG move the "whole" signal where RA "spice" it like you explained in couple posts. It's been a couple days since i drove. I'll go test it right away.
Edit - I lowered TF to 50 and disabled RAs. I ran the usual Oulton Park, RUF, TT. Did couple laps with each FFB setup:
Base feel, without RAs: It was as is.
RAG 1 / RAB 0 / RAC 0: I felt pretty close to the base feel. Beside some occurance where i could feel the wheel losing the center position(was that it?) I couldn't really feel a difference.
RAG 1 / RAB 0,01 / RAC 2: Same as above, but without the wierdness mentionned above.
RAG 1 / RAB 0,10 / RAC 2: You could start the feel RAB doing it's job.
Feel free to double check, i may have missed something.
I would need to check if using RAs only for the clamp is practical.
Cheers!
Just keep the ffb master below the default 75 for our wheel. Have you tried a faster steering ratio yet? At 100 sensitivity you're actually speeding up the steering right off center. But that wasn't the reason I used it. You will find the t300 has a soft spot a few degrees off center in either direction sensitivity helped with that. Its a long learning curve but rewarding when you start to understand it. Even after spending all the time most of us have spent here there are still things to learn. Best thing you can do is aks questions all the guys here will be happy to help.
lol I am an idiot I was modifying the wrong steering slider... once again you were right! I am faster with SS 50... Formula Rookie cars are pretty good for my tests. I was certain 100 was 1:1 but it's not. And yes 100 tire force and about 38 FFB is better than the opposite. That were I'm at right now not too heavy for me. For the tracks the slower steering didnt bother me it was when I did some time trials on the pacific highway map that I enjoyed especially the faster ratio. So I'll let you know !
lol I am an idiot I was modifying the wrong steering slider... once again you were right! I am faster with SS 50... Formula Rookie cars are pretty good for my tests. I was certain 100 was 1:1 but it's not. And yes 100 tire force and about 38 FFB is better than the opposite. That were I'm at right now not too heavy for me. For the tracks the slower steering didnt bother me it was when I did some time trials on the pacific highway map that I enjoyed especially the faster ratio. So I'll let you know !
Never an idiot. There are so many settings and many have similar but different effects. Formula rookie is a very good car to learn with. Its fast enough to be fun but it will teach you a lot that will translate to other cars. The default setup is very good just drop the tire pressure some to get the temperatures right. Faster steering ratios will help you a lot. Start using them now and avoid relearning later. It really helps on corrections and corner entry. To steal a phrase from fight-test aim small miss small. Start using the faster ratios and you will I understand.lol Did you try jacks car settings yet?
tennenbaum
01-05-2016, 21:09
Indeed. You're used to your FFB already. Since you're not running with RAs, the second you enable RAG only, without RAB and RAC, you'll know right away if it's the same or if it's spiced (https://www.google.ca/search?q=sauce+coq&espv=2&biw=1520&bih=829&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAzpWSu7nMAhWklYMKHQx8CZgQ_AUIBigB).
Here's my take:
RA and SG are Gain stage. They don't modulate the signal the same way but you set them the same way:
< 1: attenuate
1 : as is
> 1: amplify
SG move the "whole" signal where RA "spice" it like you explained in couple posts. It's been a couple days since i drove. I'll go test it right away.
Edit - I lowered TF to 50 and disabled RAs. I ran the usual Oulton Park, RUF, TT. Did couple laps with each FFB setup:
Base feel, without RAs: It was as is.
RAG 1 / RAB 0 / RAC 0: I felt pretty close to the base feel. Beside some occurance where i could feel the wheel losing the center position(was that it?) I couldn't really feel a difference.
RAG 1 / RAB 0,01 / RAC 2: Same as above, but without the wierdness mentionned above.
RAG 1 / RAB 0,10 / RAC 2: You could start the feel RAB doing it's job.
Feel free to double check, i may have missed something.
I would need to check if using RAs only for the clamp is practical.
Cheers!
sorry that i don't respond to your post more profound. it's complicated... when you turn rab and/or rac to zero i think the entire RA module gets bypassed. that's why i think the test doesn't answer the question so easily. i have to admit it goes a bit over my head today. may be i can straighten it out during the week. according to your theory RA should be neutral when RAG is set to 1.00. but i don't think so. the moment you activate the module by dial in RAB and/or RAC >0 the module does its "equation first degree" delta torque work, which is by nature different than the original signal. RAG at 1.00 create that specific RA derivate signal to some degree, with RAG > or < 1.00 that derived RA signal gets more or less "agressive". but i could be totaly wrong. imo original signal and RA signal exist parallely and just blend together by RAB (switch on/off), while RAC just defines the level of output of the RA signal. but original signal and derived RA signal can never be the same due to the way the RA is created. Hmm, do i make sense??
sorry that i don't respond to your post more profound. it's complicated... when you turn rab and/or rac to zero i think the entire RA module gets bypassed. that's why i think the test doesn't answer the question so easily. i have to admit it goes a bit over my head today. may be i can straighten it out during the week. according to your theory RA should be neutral when RAG is set to 1.00. but i don't think so. the moment you activate the module by dial in RAB and/or RAC >0 the module does its "equation first degree" delta torque work, which is by nature different than the original signal. RAG at 1.00 create that specific RA derivate signal to some degree, with RAG > or < 1.00 that derived RA signal gets more or less "agressive". but i could be totaly wrong. imo original signal and RA signal exist parallely and just blend together by RAB (switch on/off), while RAC just defines the level of output of the RA signal. but original signal and derived RA signal can never be the same due to the way the RA is created. Hmm, do i make sense??
Don't worry, i took a long break about all this. There's no hurry! :)
I almost failed college because i was lousy at math. The only reason i succeded was that the practice exam was actually the final semester exam! I practiced so much before that i knew it by heart. As for how the RA module works, lets just say i'll need some time to digest your conclusion before stating again.
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 02:21
Grimey, i think morpwr's analyse is correct. with your relatively high tire force setting (Fxyzm, SoP, master scalers and TF are all multipliers!) you get (hockeystick-)compression in the RAG/B/C module. With RAC you set the "height" of the hockeystick, thinking in terms of the i/o curve. Since realtive wheel weight finds its analogy with the size of the surface under the i/o curve, when you increase RAC you actually increase the size of the pane/surface, thus wheel weight. Of course by increasing SG you do the same thing. SG just scales (lowers or heightens) your i/o curve just another time. Insofar RAC and SG are actually just multipliers in a row and look redundant at first sight. The point is, as much as they are both scalers, when you change RAC you change the compression factor (shape of hockeystick) too. And with different compression you get different relative wheelweight...different relative wheel weight that you then increase or decrease with SG, thus leveling your relative wheel weight to a higher or lower absolute FFB strength, aka absolute wheel torque.
Now talking "lab speech" here, the entire thing here doesn't translate so clearly into an actual FFB feeling that you can easily check, evaluate and greelight it. Why? Because when you lower RAC you increase compression at the same time. That sounds wrong, but is true. So with lower RAC you get actually more RELATIVE wheelweight, BUT at the same time the lower RAC value outputs this higher relative weigth to an absolute lower level. The result is of course the feeling og less wheel weight (even while the relative weight got higher). Here is the catch: now when you lift your low absolute RAC level again by the help of SG you lift up the entire higher relative weight. So, given you level everything to 1.0 in the end to achieve maximum dynamic range, you would get a different FFB feel when (instead of reamplifying a lower RAC) you use higher RAC (thus less compression) in combination with lower SG.
Again, with changes of RAC between 0.75 and 0.98 the change of compression is minimal compared to the change of absolute signal level. In relative terms, the change of absolute signal levels has always a stronger more immediate detectable effect than compression effects... However, since we're trying to max out the FFB nuances can make a difference. you can test the seemingly paradox relationship between relative and absolute wheel weight like this: keep all tireforces to your usual (high) values, reduce RAC to 0.2, and level everything up to 1.00 with SG and you'll get much more wheel weight... if the effect doesn't show clear enough, increase RAG and RAB (just to make sure the test result is not compromised too much from faster spikes (your high Fz value creates lots of them) that pass the RA module un-altered, thus with full signal strength, no matter how high or low you set RAC.
In short: RAC influences not only wheel weight in general, but also the degree of compresion, thus the chracteristic of the i/o curve. SG is just a volume knob. (let's forget for the moment that SG can cause non linear scalings as well, but in a different context).
The Last Tweek was saturated but the RAC 75 No Sir... I dont do all the Fancy Calculators and stuff... There has Never been any Math Formula Given by SMS to confirm the Multiplier theory... 1 + 1 always = 2... Math does Not Lie so if it were simple as a Math Formula the FFB would have been perfect long ago... IMO There is No Exact Math formula... JMT... I Still do the FFB by Feel... your Thoery Reads really well but its Not exactly spot on according to FFB Feel.... you just have to try the FFB for your self... Will work with any wheel as long as the GM FFB is set Accordingly. There are Many who use TM /Logitec wheel that use the tweek and Confirm all is well once proper GM FFB is set.... We get a Lot of Views on the thread but Not all post in the thread...but they do inbox to Ask Questions or Confirm that tweek works.
spacepadrille
02-05-2016, 07:41
Hi Guys ! I'm actually playing 90% DiRT Rally and 10% PCars (DiRT is new and I want to achieve the Master Carrier), but I read every post of this thread with pleasure every day, and my come back to PCars is soon :-)
I have a question concerning Steering sensitivity and Steering Ratio ; we all agree (I guess) that steering sensitivity helps to prevent the loose spot at the center of the wheel, and also to turn in easier. Some set sensitivity to 100, some to 80, some to 70. OK.
My first reflex to compensate the little "non realistic effect" induced by a high sensitivity was to raise the steering ratio, going the "more subtle control" way. And I was happy like that. After that I could read on this thread that lowering steering ratio was the way to compensate the high sensitivity and to improve laptimes. I tried, and yes it works my laptimes are better !
But is it realistic ? I mean, I play PCars like a pure simulation, all helps off, immersive way. I never drove a racing car in RL, but I want PCars to show me what racing is or could be. So if in the real world the car handles more like it is in PCars with a small amount of steering sensitivity and default steering ratio, maybe I would prefer to face this difficulty even if my laptimes are worse...
Does somebody have thoughts about this point ?
gotdirt410sprintcar
02-05-2016, 07:50
So Tennenbaum are you running CLP at 2.00? I run it like that before it's OK you think BL gets better? when I did it I was using a high BL and low gain as I'm thinking about it I never did raise SG 1.00 so I tested RAG 50 BL75 CLP 2.00 I felt a lower gain Helped the sticky feel.
But if I would of raised SG it been the same effect of a high gain but I did test a gain of 0.40 I lost wheel weight But if I was thinking at the time SG added might of been a nice feel idk. But a high bleed is nice you get that heavy wheel then the light wheel when you lock up but the sticky part ruins it. And ain't RA part of the g force's?
Jack Spade
02-05-2016, 08:22
The Last Tweek was saturated but the RAC 75 No Sir... I dont do all the Fancy Calculators and stuff... There has Never been any Math Formula Given by SMS to confirm the Multiplier theory... 1 + 1 always = 2... Math does Not Lie so if it were simple as a Math Formula the FFB would have been perfect long ago... IMO There is No Exact Math formula... JMT... I Still do the FFB Feel... your Thoery Reads really well but its Not exactly spot on according to FFB Feel.... you just have to try the FFB for your self... Will work with any wheel as long as the FFB is set Accordingly. There are Many who use TM /Logitec wheel that use the tweek and Confirm all is well once proper GM FFB is set.... We get a Lot of Views on the thread but Not all post in the thread...but they do inbox to Ask Questions or Confirm that tweek works.
Multiplier - the exact formula
I posted a similar example in a different thread a long time ago, itīs the very basic principle of this System, posted thousands
of tweaker files since the early days of this game based on simple math.
50 TF * 60 Scale = 3000
100 TF * 30 Scale = 3000
90 Mz * 80 Scale = 7200
60 Mz * 120 Scale = 7200
As you can see in those two examples the result is the same and so is the force.
Hereīs something a bit more complicated.
Lets say you ended up at Fz = 200, which is the end of the scale, but itīs still not enough road response for you but on the other
side the force and ratio of Mz / Fy is perfect, not clipping. In order to give it more road you need to increase the Master Scale
maybe up to 50 in this example, but how to preserve Mz/Fy?
This is your current setting:
(Fz = 200), Mz = 60, Fy = 30, Master Scale = 30 --> increase to 50
Solution:
60 Mz * 30 Scale = 1800
30 Fy * 30 Scale = 900
1800 / 50 Scale = 36 Mz
900 / 50 Scale = 18 Fy
Result, force and ratio of Mz/Fy preserved.
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 10:31
I agree.
At this point, we should all agree on terms, and update the first post with them. It's going to be easier to track for everyone.
Just remember saturation and clipping don't necessarily go hand in hand.
This is whats confusing Me... Yes i like alot of Feel to My wheel there is No Clipping and im Not Losing Subtle Feel and the wheel weight is Nice.
I just dont follow the Mathematical approach because there has Never been any #'s given that these forces are Multiplied by... Therefore i choose to use the sliders as Pass throughs EX: 100 Masters will let 100% of what ever i set Fx,Fy,,Fz,Mz & SoP through without signal Reduction...its all just a #'s Game and depending on How you View the settings there are Many ways to get the same Feel... this brings up My original Question what are the in Car Masters Truely = to??? Is 100 = to 100% or does 100 = 50% and 101+ =Overdive? or doe's 200 = 100% these are Questions that Must be answered before any Mathematical Formula can be accurately applied.... There are Many things with the FFB system that are still a Pradox:confused: but the end result is we can all Manage to get Good Feel Now... Thats whats Most important... I just don't Follow the Mathematical theory at this point due to a lack of Critical information Needed to apply it as fact...
The Bright side is that it is the different ideas and tuning Methodes that have brought the FFB sooo Far along.... If there was just 1 way SMS would have just set it that way and that would be that...at this point PCars FFB has Never Felt sooo Good IMO:yes:
Hi Guys ! I'm actually playing 90% DiRT Rally and 10% PCars (DiRT is new and I want to achieve the Master Carrier), but I read every post of this thread with pleasure every day, and my come back to PCars is soon :-)
I have a question concerning Steering sensitivity and Steering Ratio ; we all agree (I guess) that steering sensitivity helps to prevent the loose spot at the center of the wheel, and also to turn in easier. Some set sensitivity to 100, some to 80, some to 70. OK.
My first reflex to compensate the little "non realistic effect" induced by a high sensitivity was to raise the steering ratio, going the "more subtle control" way. And I was happy like that. After that I could read on this thread that lowering steering ratio was the way to compensate the high sensitivity and to improve laptimes. I tried, and yes it works my laptimes are better !
But is it realistic ? I mean, I play PCars like a pure simulation, all helps off, immersive way. I never drove a racing car in RL, but I want PCars to show me what racing is or could be. So if in the real world the car handles more like it is in PCars with a small amount of steering sensitivity and default steering ratio, maybe I would prefer to face this difficulty even if my laptimes are worse...
Does somebody have thoughts about this point ?
Actually if you read up on steering ratio in real life most drivers prefer the steering ratio as close to 1:1 as possible. Look at a formula one for example they hardly move their hands. Same goes for street performance cars they all have faster ratios. So id say yes it is realistic. Even wheel diameter comes into play here. Not all drivers prefer the same diameter wheel. Problem is in a daily driver most would find it difficult and to responsive to drive if the ratios were that fast. So like everything they compromise on the stuff we drive everyday.
My first reflex to compensate the little "non realistic effect" induced by a high sensitivity was to raise the steering ratio, going the "more subtle control" way. And I was happy like that. After that I could read on this thread that lowering steering ratio was the way to compensate the high sensitivity and to improve laptimes. I tried, and yes it works my laptimes are better !
But is it realistic ? I mean, I play PCars like a pure simulation, all helps off, immersive way. I never drove a racing car in RL, but I want PCars to show me what racing is or could be. So if in the real world the car handles more like it is in PCars with a small amount of steering sensitivity and default steering ratio, maybe I would prefer to face this difficulty even if my laptimes are worse...
Does somebody have thoughts about this point ?
Actually if you read up on steering ratio in real life most drivers prefer the steering ratio as close to 1:1 as possible. Look at a formula one for example they hardly move their hands. Same goes for street performance cars they all have faster ratios. So id say yes it is realistic. Even wheel diameter comes into play here. Not all drivers prefer the same diameter wheel. Problem is in a daily driver most would find it difficult and to responsive to drive if the ratios were that fast. So like everything they compromise on the stuff we drive everyday.
I'd think using Steering Sensitivity to improve turning response is the unrealistic method. Not knocking it's use, because I understand why it's used in this sim, and also run mine slightly higher (60). But IRL, drivers would just work with steering ratio--lower if they want quicker response, and higher if they find themselves oversteering too often.
Multiplier - the exact formula
I posted a similar example in a different thread a long time ago, itīs the very basic principle of this System, posted thousands
of tweaker files since the early days of this game based on simple math.
50 TF * 60 Scale = 3000
100 TF * 30 Scale = 3000
90 Mz * 80 Scale = 7200
60 Mz * 120 Scale = 7200
As you can see in those two examples the result is the same and so is the force.
Hereīs something a bit more complicated.
Lets say you ended up at Fz = 200, which is the end of the scale, but itīs still not enough road response for you but on the other
side the force and ratio of Mz / Fy is perfect, not clipping. In order to give it more road you need to increase the Master Scale
maybe up to 50 in this example, but how to preserve Mz/Fy?
This is your current setting:
(Fz = 200), Mz = 60, Fy = 30, Master Scale = 30 --> increase to 50
Solution:
60 Mz * 30 Scale = 1800
30 Fy * 30 Scale = 900
1800 / 50 Scale = 36 Mz
900 / 50 Scale = 18 Fy
Result, force and ratio of Mz/Fy preserved.
Awesome as usual , thanks . I just wish i understood better ? In your first example what is 3000 and 7200 and second what is 1800 and 900 ? And what makes those numbers good ?
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 13:16
I agree.
At this point, we should all agree on terms, and update the first post with them. It's going to be easier to track for everyone.
Multiplier - the exact formula
I posted a similar example in a different thread a long time ago, itīs the very basic principle of this System, posted thousands
of tweaker files since the early days of this game based on simple math.
50 TF * 60 Scale = 3000
100 TF * 30 Scale = 3000
90 Mz * 80 Scale = 7200
60 Mz * 120 Scale = 7200
As you can see in those two examples the result is the same and so is the force.
Hereīs something a bit more complicated.
Lets say you ended up at Fz = 200, which is the end of the scale, but itīs still not enough road response for you but on the other
side the force and ratio of Mz / Fy is perfect, not clipping. In order to give it more road you need to increase the Master Scale
maybe up to 50 in this example, but how to preserve Mz/Fy?
This is your current setting:
(Fz = 200), Mz = 60, Fy = 30, Master Scale = 30 --> increase to 50
Solution:
60 Mz * 30 Scale = 1800
30 Fy * 30 Scale = 900
1800 / 50 Scale = 36 Mz
900 / 50 Scale = 18 Fy
Result, force and ratio of Mz/Fy preserved.
I understand that this is your formula that works well for you...I have tried this and it doe's Not give Me the Feel i like.
For Me i use
TF 100 *Higher* This is Balanced out with Lower in Car settings and Lower RAG to give Good wheel weight that is easily adjusted with + or - to the Car Masters and Fine tuned with the Fx,Fy settings....this Negates the Need to go into the Global settings and Re-adjust TF because every Car can be tailored to preference in the Car tuning Menu.
RAG 1.00 *Much Lower*... IMO RAG is a Limiter, Forces that Rise above this set level will be Cut/Clipped... I find No Need for forces to Rise above 1.00
RAB .08 This Lower RAB setting Reduces the Harshness of the FFB Forces and well as providing a Tighter wheel Center Due to Less Bleed off Time... Due to the Tighter wheel Center More Subtle FFB can be Felt.
RAC 75 *Lower*...Setting Rac 75 Keeps Subtle Forces between 75 to 85% of the Graph box while Harsher/Stronger Forces Will still use 100% of Graph Box without the FFB Tips Being Flattend or Cut Off...IMO Flattend or Cut Off FFB Spike Tips = Signal Loss.
Master Scales 100 *Higher*(The Major point of debate)
I Like 100 but as i always State they can be turned down to Accomodate any wheel or FFB personal FFB Taste while keeping Good Feel... I use the V2 and its well equiped to handle MS 100 and even Runs Less than 100°F even after Hours of use with MS 100.
I did a 5 lap Nubergring online and wheel temp was 90°F at Race end the side fan did Not even turn on and thats a Bumpy Track where the FFB Forces can be Strong at Times Not to mention the Constant forces applied because of all the Turns.
Fx 10
Fy 30
Fz 60
Mz 30
When you add TF Ũ Scale yes My Nubers are Higher But when you add the Fx,Fy etc My Numbers are Lower...but again i dont Follow the Mathematical Tweek theory because i have Never Seen a SMS blue print that states the Exact #'s that the Math Formula is Governed by.
Trust Me if i could use Math to get the Feel i like i would have done it Long ago...It would have been a Much simpler process that involved a lot less Test Laps and Tweeking...I am Still of the Mind set and theory that there is No Exact Math that Gives perfect Feel because even when you set things by your Math Formula you still end up having to Run Test laps and + or - Masters, Fx,Fy, SoP and these changes will either Lower your projected Mathematical Range or Raise them out side the Limits of your theory... So the end Result is always the same you end up Tweeking by Feel to fine tune according to your individual FFB preference.
Edit: the Question still Remains what are the Masters Truely = to??? is 100 = to 100% and 101+ = overdrive??? or is 200 = to 100%:confused: this is the Critical Question that Needs to be answered before a Accurate Mathematical Formula can be applied...
I understand that this is your formula that works well for you...I have tried this and it doe's Not give Me the Feel i like.
For Me i use
TF 100
MS 100
Fx 10
Fy 30
Fz 60
Mz 30
When you add TF Ũ Scale yes My Nubers are Higher But when you add the Fx,Fy etc My Numbers are Lower...but again i dont Follow the Mathematical Tweek theory because i have Never Seen a SMS blue print that states the Exact #'s that the Math Formula is Governed by.
Trust Me if i could use Math to get the Feel i like i would have done it Long ago...It would have been a Much simpler process that involved a lot less Test Laps and Tweeking...I am Still of the Mind set and theory that there is No Exact Math that Gives perfect Feel because even when you set things by your Math Formula you still end up having to Run Test laps and + or - Masters, Fx,Fy, SoP and these changes will either Lower your projected Mathematical Range or Raise them out side the Limits of your theory... So the end Result is always the same you end up Tweeking by Feel to fine tune according to your individual FFB preference.
I haven't needed to tweak JS numbers i just plug and play . I've tried every set of numbers I've found and tried to make my own by feel (just because i don't just want to use some settings for a year only to find it could have been better) but nothing works as simply and as good without any fear of clipping for me on my wheel .
Now i just hope my globals are as good as possible . These I've had to tweak but I'm just not 100% sure I'm getting everything .
I understand that this is your formula that works well for you...I have tried this and it doe's Not give Me the Feel i like.
For Me i use
TF 100
MS 100
Fx 10
Fy 30
Fz 60
Mz 30
When you add TF Ũ Scale yes My Nubers are Higher But when you add the Fx,Fy etc My Numbers are Lower...but again i dont Follow the Mathematical Tweek theory because i have Never Seen a SMS blue print that states the Exact #'s that the Math Formula is Governed by.
Trust Me if i could use Math to get the Feel i like i would have done it Long ago...It would have been a Much simpler process that involved a lot less Test Laps and Tweeking...I am Still of the Mind set and theory that there is No Exact Math that Gives perfect Feel because even when you set things by your Math Formula you still end up having to Run Test laps and + or - Masters, Fx,Fy, SoP and these changes will either Lower your projected Mathematical Range or Raise them out side the Limits of your theory... So the end Result is always the same you end up Tweeking by Feel to fine tune according to your individual FFB preference.
It's not a formula for the perfect feel. It's just an example of the simple math that can be used to balance/preserve the in-car scales in relation to the TF, which is multiplied against them. There is no unknown value. TF is the multiplier.
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 14:12
It's not a formula for the perfect feel. It's just an example of the simple math that can be used to balance/preserve the in-car scales in relation to the TF, which is multiplied against them. There is no unknown value. TF is the multiplier.
Re Check Post i Made Edits
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 15:27
I haven't needed to tweak JS numbers i just plug and play . I've tried every set of numbers I've found and tried to make my own by feel (just because i don't just want to use some settings for a year only to find it could have been better) but nothing works as simply and as good without any fear of clipping for me on my wheel .
Now i just hope my globals are as good as possible . These I've had to tweak but I'm just not 100% sure I'm getting everything .
The Best Feel is the one you are Mist comfortabke with... there is No Need to keep Chasing the Univorn if your Happy with the Feel you have...usually its best to check/Test Diff settings after a update...but if it Feels Good it is Good thats just the bottom line.
Jezza819
02-05-2016, 15:35
I agree. FFB is personal--no right or wrong, as far as the end result is concerned--but without a common language, we're just confusing people that come to the thread trying to get their settings sorted out.
Amen brother!! At least for me all of this alphabet soup is very confusing.
Under controller in the global settings, are you guys running advanced on or off? Currently with the Fanatec V2 I'm running it off.
Edit: the Question still Remains what are the Masters Truely = to??? is 100 = to 100% and 101+ = overdrive??? or is 200 = to 100%:confused: this is the Critical Question that Needs to be answered before a Accurate Mathematical Formula can be applied...
I doesn't matter. Percentages refer to the portion of a whole. Whether there are 100 increments in the scale or 200, if you're using all of them, then that's 100% in both cases. If you're using half of the scale (50 out of 100; or 100 out of 200) that's still 50% in both cases. Each scale has a minimum and max, regardless how many increments there in between, the minimum is always 0%, the middle is always 50%, and the max is always 100%.
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 15:44
It's not a formula for the perfect feel. It's just an example of the simple math that can be used to balance/preserve the in-car scales in relation to the TF, which is multiplied against them. There is no unknown value. TF is the multiplier.
Yes but the Pricipal or Critical/ Debatable Question Remains un answered... What is actually the 100% Setting for the Car Masters:confused: This is the Critical Debatable point....this is the Question that Must be answered and is the Missing Link to Unifying tweek Methodes.
TBH when i Flip My Settings Lower Masters to 50 and Double the in Car Settings the Feel is almost the Same... When i Race in Rooms with Forced Stock tunes or Test a Car with the Stock in Car settings the Feel is almost identical... The FFB is Just a Tad less Defined and Not as Lively.
Like i stated the Last tweek with RAC 92 may have been over saturated due to the Changes tbat have been made since 6.0 also when i failed to Notice that the GM FFB for Fanatec wheel Had Been Negated this Compounded that Fact... But the RAC 75 for Me is Spot on.
IMO Oversaturated is the Subtle Feel Rising to the Very Top of the FFB Graph Box the same as Stronger Forces... If you Look at a Graphic EQ on a Stereo the Lower Notes dont Raise up as high as the Stronger Bass Notes...Different yes but Technically operates on the same principal.
IMO what i Have found is when the FFB spike Tips Go Flat or get Cut Off i get Less FFB Feel...with RAC 75 the Subtle/Weaker Forces Rise 85 Maybe 90% of the Graph Box while the Stronger/Harsher signals use 100% of the Graph Box without any Flatening or Cut off Spike Tips.
No tweek is perfect but this Methode works best for Me.
I suggest setting the Proper GM FFB for your wheel Trying the RAC 75 tweek first compair and post.
I would love to see the results of a Blind FFB test... Hmmm???
Jack Spade
02-05-2016, 15:49
I understand that this is your formula that works well for you...I have tried this and it doe's Not give Me the Feel i like.
For Me i use
TF 100 Higher
RAG 1.00 Much Lower... IMO RAG is a Limiter, Forces that Rise above this set level will be Cut/Clipped... I find No Need for forces to Rise above 1.00
RAB .08 This Lower RAB setting Reduces the Harshness of the FFB Forces and well as providing a Tighter wheel Center Due to Less Bleed off Time... Due to the Tighter wheel Center More Subtle FFB can be Felt.
RAC 75 Lower...Setting Rac 75 Keeps Subtle Forces between 75 to 85% of the Graph box while Harsher/Stronger Forces Will still use 100% of Graph Box without the FFB Tips Being Flattend or Cut Off...IMO Flattend or Cut Off FFB Spike Tips = Signal Loss.
MS 100 Higher (The Major point of debate)
I Like 100 but as i always State they can be turned down to Accomodate any wheel or FFB personal FFB Taste while keeping Good Feel... I use the V2 and its well equiped to handle MS 100 and even Runs Less than 100°F even after Hours of use with MS 100.
I did a 5 lap Nubergring online and wheel temp was 90°F at Race end the side fan did Not even turn on and thats a Bumpy Track where the FFB Forces can be Strong at Times Not to mention the Constant forces applied because of all the Turns.
Fx 10
Fy 30
Fz 60
Mz 30
When you add TF Ũ Scale yes My Nubers are Higher But when you add the Fx,Fy etc My Numbers are Lower...but again i dont Follow the Mathematical Tweek theory because i have Never Seen a SMS blue print that states the Exact #'s that the Math Formula is Governed by.
Trust Me if i could use Math to get the Feel i like i would have done it Long ago...It would have been a Much simpler process that involved a lot less Test Laps and Tweeking...I am Still of the Mind set and theory that there is No Exact Math that Gives perfect Feel because even when you set things by your Math Formula you still end up having to Run Test laps and + or - Masters, Fx,Fy, SoP and these changes will either Lower your projected Mathematical Range or Raise them out side the Limits of your theory... So the end Result is always the same you end up Tweeking by Feel to fine tune according to your individual FFB preference.
Edit: the Question still Remains what are the Masters Truely = to??? is 100 = to 100% and 101+ = overdrive??? or is 200 = to 100%:confused: this is the Critical Question that Needs to be answered before a Accurate Mathematical Formula can be applied...
100% is defined by the systems resolution on the FFB monitor itīs a flat line against top or bottom, not a professional level meter but itīs the only thing we got.
Unfortunately you donīt accept the Multiplier basics of this system so obviously it seems hard to understand 100% can be reached with numerous of different TF,
Scales and SG value combinations.
Amen brother!! At least for me all of this alphabet soup is very confusing.
Under controller in the global settings, are you guys running advanced on or off? Currently with the Fanatec V2 I'm running it off.
advanced is off its for controllers.
Yes but the Pricipal or Critical/ Debatable Question Remains un answered... What is actually the 100% Setting for the Car Masters:confused: This is the Critical Debatable point....this is the Question that Must be answered and is the Missing Link to Unifying tweek Methodes.
TBH when i Flip My Settings Lower Masters to 50 and Double the in Car Settings the Feel is almost the Same... When i Race in Rooms with Forced Stock tunes or Test a Car with the Stock in Car settings the Feel is almost identical... The FFB is Just a Tad less Defined and Not as Lively.
Like i stated the Last tweek with RAC 92 may have been over saturated due to the Changes tbat have been made since 6.0 also when i failed to Notice that the GM FFB for Fanatec wheel Had Been Negated this Compounded that Fact... But the RAC 75 for Me is Spot on.
IMO Oversaturated is the Subtle Feel Rising to the Very Top of the FFB Graph Box the same as Stronger Forces... If you Look at a Graphic EQ on a Stereo the Lower Notes dont Raise up as high as the Stronger Bass Notes...Different yes but Technically operates on the same principal.
IMO what i Have found is when the FFB spike Tips Go Flat or get Cut Off i get Less FFB Feel...with RAC 75 the Subtle/Weaker Forces Rise 85 Maybe 90% of the Graph Box while the Stronger/Harsher signals use 100% of the Graph Box without any Flatening or Cut off Spike Tips.
No tweek is perfect but this Methode works best for Me.
I suggest setting the Proper GM FFB for your wheel Trying the RAC 75 tweek first compair and post.
I would love to see the results of a Blind FFB test... Hmmm???
That's what Jack was trying to explain. (100 x 40) and (50 x 80) both = 4000. That's why it feels the same to you.
IMO, oversaturation drowns out the subtle slip feel. Saturation in itself isn't a bad thing. You need some degree of saturation in the feel. But oversaturation is never a good thing. That's why it's called oversaturation. There's too much, and the extra bits muddy up the dynamic range.
I've tried just about everyone's settings in this thread, including yours. In fact, I've tried multiple iterations of yours, because I've been trying to understand where you're coming from. Your settings feel very oversaturated to me--lots of liveliness, but too much extraneous detail (things that might feel cool, but aren't communicating useful information regarding grip). There's a constant tension/weight when cornering, instead of a dynamic response based on grip. Your settings feel a lot like my CSW-v2 FFB tunes felt before I weaned myself off the oversaturation. When I first got my CSW-v2, I wasn't used to the smoothness, and it felt a little numb. So my early FFB tunes turned out oversaturated--lots of road texture, but not a lot of subtle slip feel. I'm not advocating right or wrong. If you like them, that's all that matters. That was just my impression.
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 17:38
100% is defined by the systems resolution on the FFB monitor itīs a flat line against top or bottom, not a professional level meter but itīs the only thing we got.
Unfortunately you donīt accept the Multiplier basics of this system so obviously it seems hard to understand 100% can be reached with numerous of different TF,
Scales and SG value combinations.
Yes JS i agree on the point that 100% is defined by 100% of the Graph box Volume... But as i stated My Subtle Forces Go 85 to maybe 90% of the Graph Box while the Stronger Forces will use 100% of the Graph box with No Flat lining or Having the FBB spike Tips cut off.... So yes with the End Result we are on the same page but we just use different Methodes of getting there... Its Really just a Matter of How you View and use the FFB System... There is No 1 set way thats best... Some like Lively FFB while some prefer a Calmer FFB... I have tried it the other way around and it just was Not enough Feel for Me...That causes Me to turn the RAC up to get the Feel Back which Raises the wheel weight and also Makes the Wheel Run Hotter. Just as tou have found your way to balance your tweek i have found Mine:applause: its all about Good FFB Feel in the end.
I dont doubt your Method works for you and Many others but i am also sure My Method works also and just as well.
tennenbaum
02-05-2016, 17:48
So Tennenbaum are you running CLP at 2.00? I run it like that before it's OK you think BL gets better? when I did it I was using a high BL and low gain as I'm thinking about it I never did raise SG 1.00 so I tested RAG 50 BL75 CLP 2.00 I felt a lower gain Helped the sticky feel.
But if I would of raised SG it been the same effect of a high gain but I did test a gain of 0.40 I lost wheel weight But if I was thinking at the time SG added might of been a nice feel idk. But a high bleed is nice you get that heavy wheel then the light wheel when you lock up but the sticky part ruins it. And ain't RA part of the g force's?
currently i turned the entire FA module off by setting RAB to zero. that's how you also switch off RAC. before, when i used RAG with 1.3 and RAB with 0.06 i set RAC to 2.0 to make sure i dont get any unwanted clamping to make sure no saturation can happen. as a matter of fact, setting RAC to something only a bit higher than 1.00 would have been sufficient too, becauseci choose my tireforces in a way that they don't get higher than 1.00 anyway. and no, RAG has nothing to do with G forces. but believe me that's the only thing i know for sure about RA... i can't crack that bitchy blackbox thing ;)and since poirqs tricky post and some tests more i'm more confused about RAG and RAB than ever...
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 20:31
currently i turned the entire FA module off by setting RAB to zero. that's how you also switch off RAC. before, when i used RAG with 1.3 and RAB with 0.06 i set RAC to 2.0 to make sure i dont get any unwanted clamping to make sure no saturation can happen. as a matter of fact, setting RAC to something only a bit higher than 1.00 would have been sufficient too, becauseci choose my tireforces in a way that they don't get higher than 1.00 anyway. and no, RAG has nothing to do with G forces. but believe me that's the only thing i know for sure about RA... i can't crack that bitchy blackbox thing ;)and since poirqs tricky post and some tests more i'm more confused about RAG and RAB than ever...
What you Need to Know tennenbaum??? Grimey will write a Thesus for you:very_drunk:
inthebagbud
02-05-2016, 21:31
So Tennenbaum are you running CLP at 2.00? I run it like that before it's OK you think BL gets better? when I did it I was using a high BL and low gain as I'm thinking about it I never did raise SG 1.00 so I tested RAG 50 BL75 CLP 2.00 I felt a lower gain Helped the sticky feel.
But if I would of raised SG it been the same effect of a high gain but I did test a gain of 0.40 I lost wheel weight But if I was thinking at the time SG added might of been a nice feel idk. But a high bleed is nice you get that heavy wheel then the light wheel when you lock up but the sticky part ruins it. And ain't RA part of the g force's?
Ok I was just about to give today's update on the RA side of my ffb tweak but this post has thrown a bit of a curve ball. I experimented with RA all afternoon and my report was going to be I can see what RA is doing to the curve but I do not like it and was going to say that until this post.
I need somebody to explain what .5 .75 2 are actually doing as I like them and knocked over half second of my time in the current challenge.!
I do wish people would stop posting ideas !!
Ok I was just about to give today's update on the RA side of my ffb tweak but this post has thrown a bit of a curve ball. I experimented with RA all afternoon and my report was going to be I can see what RA is doing to the curve but I do not like it and was going to say that until this post.
I need somebody to explain what .5 .75 2 are actually doing as I like them and knocked over half second of my time in the current challenge.!
I do wish people would stop posting ideas !!
Have you tried jacks .85 rac, rab ill get to that and rag 1.50 as a starting point? These settings modify the ffb curve. Somewhere in here tennebaum had a graph that showed what happened. Rab is a time based value id recommend trying lower values. If set too high the forces will hang and grab. Youll see when you turn it down more or up to .10. If you play with rab leave the other two settings the same so only rab has an effect. Rac is the starting value it works around but has other effects like having an effect on wheel weight . From what I can tell too low youll start to lose low forces and too high you gain more wheel weight than ffb benefits. Rag seems to have an effect on how strong the forces get which makes sense with the name. The reason it feels better is it livens up the ffb it makes more sense when you see the graph. Ok if I missed anything or am just plain wrong somebody chime in.
Ok I was just about to give today's update on the RA side of my ffb tweak but this post has thrown a bit of a curve ball. I experimented with RA all afternoon and my report was going to be I can see what RA is doing to the curve but I do not like it and was going to say that until this post.
I need somebody to explain what .5 .75 2 are actually doing as I like them and knocked over half second of my time in the current challenge.!
I do wish people would stop posting ideas !!
RAG at .5 will attenuate torque deltas(Torque deltas would be less pushy). It helps with clipping. RAB at .75 means that the atenuation happends over 3/4 of a second. This means a more stable FFB. You're probably having less clipping. If you're settling RAC at 2, it means the RA module is only there to do some signal modulation, without any compression.
RAG at .5 will attenuate torque deltas(Torque deltas would be less pushy). It helps with clipping. RAB at .75 means that the atenuation happends over 3/4 of a second. This means a more stable FFB. You're probably having less clipping. If you're settling RAC at 2, it means the RA module is only there to do some signal modulation, without any compression.
Thanks poirqc
GrimeyDog
02-05-2016, 22:35
https://youtu.be/nnJzNXWqIzs
This is RAC 75... Note How the Weaker Forces Rise 85 to 90% of Graph Box Volume while the Stronger Forces use the whole Box without having the FFB Spike tips Flattend or cut off:yes: also Note that in the corners while Tires are Scrubbing for Grip the FFB line is Very active but when the Scrubbing stops and Track Smooths out that the Line will go as flat as possible:yes:.... if some one could explain whats wrong with this Graph or even better Post a Video showing what you feel the Graph should look like that would be Swell...Who has a FFB Graph video to post and Compare? IMO this FFB is No where Near Saturated.
Remember if you tried this tweek with other than a Fanatec wheel then you Needed to set your GM FFB according to your wheel:yes: Not 100%:no: because that will Cause your wheel to be over powered. IMO Consol GM FFB 100 is Not Needed.... But No Need for debate.
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