View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
I'll be franck with you guys, Overwatch is out and playing Winston is just awesome.
It was a wild ride! I wish you all some crowded races! :D
Take care!
Have you tried jacks .85 rac, rab ill get to that and rag 1.50 as a starting point? These settings modify the ffb curve. Somewhere in here tennebaum had a graph that showed what happened. Rab is a time based value id recommend trying lower values. If set too high the forces will hang and grab. Youll see when you turn it down more or up to .10. If you play with rab leave the other two settings the same so only rab has an effect. Rac is the starting value it works around but has other effects like having an effect on wheel weight . From what I can tell too low youll start to lose low forces and too high you gain more wheel weight than ffb benefits. Rag seems to have an effect on how strong the forces get which makes sense with the name. The reason it feels better is it livens up the ffb it makes more sense when you see the graph. Ok if I missed anything or am just plain wrong somebody chime in.
Jack's RA settings work great for me. I left RAB set to .10, and like it. I've played with lower RAB values before, just not with Jacks settings. I agree with Morpwr. Lower settings do change the feel. The wheel felt a little tighter to me, not in a weighted/heavier sense, but in a more responsive way. Small increments made a big difference, so don't make big changes. I think I was torn between 0.06-0.08. I might give that shot later, just to see how it feels with my current globals. :)
RAG at .5 will attenuate torque deltas(Torque deltas would be less pushy). It helps with clipping. RAB at .75 means that the atenuation happends over 3/4 of a second. This means a more stable FFB. You're probably having less clipping. If you're settling RAC at 2, it means the RA module is only there to do some signal modulation, without any compression.
Is it just me, or does .75 seem high? I know I tried RAB at higher levels but I don't think I was able to get nearly that high. Do other globals let you running it higher or something?
https://youtu.be/nnJzNXWqIzs
This is RAC 75... Note How the Weaker Forces Rise 85 to 90% of Graph Box Volume while the Stronger Forces use the whole Box without having the FFB Spike tips Flattend or cut off:yes: also Note that in the corners while Tires are Scrubbing for Grip the FFB line is Very active but when the Scrubbing stops and Track Smooths out that the Line will go as flat as possible:yes:.... if some one could explain whats wrong with this Graph or even better Post a Video showing what you feel the Graph should look like that would be Swell...Who has a FFB Graph video to post and Compare? IMO this FFB is No where Near Saturated.
Remember if you tried this tweek with other than a Fanatec wheel then you Needed to set your GM FFB according to your wheel:yes: Not 100%:no: because that will Cause your wheel to be over powered. IMO Consol GM FFB 100 is Not Needed.... But No Need for debate.
It seems like you're getting a lot of understeer. Can you not feel it?
inthebagbud
02-05-2016, 23:49
I'll be franck with you guys, Overwatch is out and playing Winston is just awesome.
It was a wild ride! I wish you all some crowded races! :D
Take care!
That sounds a lot like a I am leaving the discussion .. if so take care I have enjoyed your input and hopefully see you again when AC is released or pcars 2
I'll be franck with you guys, Overwatch is out and playing Winston is just awesome.
It was a wild ride! I wish you all some crowded races! :D
Take care!
Going to miss the technical stuff from you! Hope you stop back once in a while.
gotdirt410sprintcar
03-05-2016, 00:23
I'll be franck with you guys, Overwatch is out and playing Winston is just awesome.
It was a wild ride! I wish you all some crowded races! :D
Take care!
You can't stay away the itch is to strong lol. See you around my friend
Ok I was just about to give today's update on the RA side of my ffb tweak but this post has thrown a bit of a curve ball. I experimented with RA all afternoon and my report was going to be I can see what RA is doing to the curve but I do not like it and was going to say that until this post.
I need somebody to explain what .5 .75 2 are actually doing as I like them and knocked over half second of my time in the current challenge.!
I do wish people would stop posting ideas !!
Jack's RA settings work great for me. I left RAB set to .10, and like it. I've played with lower RAB values before, just not with Jacks settings. I agree with Morpwr. Lower settings do change the feel. The wheel felt a little tighter to me, not in a weighted/heavier sense, but in a more responsive way. Small increments made a big difference, so don't make big changes. I think I was torn between 0.06-0.08. I might give that shot later, just to see how it feels with my current globals. :)
Is it just me, or does .75 seem high? I know I tried RAB at higher levels but I don't think I was able to get nearly that high. Do other globals let you running it higher or something?
Well, it seems i can't sustain shooter as long as before! :D
About RAB, i remember DreamsKnight posted (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22122-G25-G27-Wheel-Setup-Guide&p=1188022&viewfull=1#post1188022) a global template, from his G27, that used a RAB way too high(> 1,5). It felt like the FFB was inverted at some point. He made changes to it and his original post is gone(i don't remember the rest of the globals). A high RAB can be "sticky", like other said when paired with high RAG values.
But from my reply it seems RAB 0,75 can work. tpw also liked a high RAB value, paired with a low RAG. (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34527-FFB-Experiments-with-Relative-Adjust-parameters&p=1038876&viewfull=1#post1038876)
Thanks for the kind words guys, i appreciate it. But i'm just a drop in the bucket of knowledge! :D
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 01:59
It seems like you're getting a lot of understeer. Can you not feel it?
Thats the Old Ford Mk IV with Stock Suspension thats just the way that Car is its Not the Best Handling car to say the Least... The Best FFB wont Fix that:no:...But yes i can Feel the understeer Very well... I can keep the Tires Squeeling on the Edge of Grip and still maintain Control... Check The 2nd lap the Tires were warm so i really tried to push it through the sweeper after the Bus Stop... Counter Steer and Throttle Control. as the Graph Looks is How My wheel feels...Really Nice!!! For Me the Best Feel Yet!!!
Note How the Weaker Forces only use 85% of the Box volume But the stronger Forces will use the whole box with No Flat Line or FFB tips getting cut off. IMO thats Loss of FFB info.
Edit: If you have Tried this Tweek on PS4 with other than a Fanatec wheel and used GM FFB that explains why your wheel would feel Heavy and Forces may be strong.
IMO Pcars for Consol GM FFB is Not Needed unless you are using a Fanatec Wheel with PS4.
XBox 1 with Fanatec V2 wheels GM FFB should be between 25 to 30 this you will Have to test depending on How strong you Like your wheel and Fanatec wheel used.
Other wheels you Must set your GM FFB according to your wheel Recommended FFB settings then Test + or - to get the desired at the Wheel FFB strength thats right for you:yes:
Thats the Old Ford Mk IV with Stock Suspension thats just the way that Car is its Not the Best Handling car to say the Least... The Best FFB wont Fix that:no:...But yes i can Feel the understeer Very well... I can keep the Tires Squeeling on the Edge of Grip and still maintain Control... Check The 2nd lap the Tires were warm so i really tried to push it through the sweeper after the Bus Stop... Counter Steer and Throttle Control. as the Graph Looks is How My wheel feels...Really Nice!!! For Me the Best Feel Yet!!!
Note How the Weaker Forces only use 85% of the Box volume But the stronger Forces will use the whole box with No Flat Line or FFB tips getting cut off. IMO thats Loss of FFB info.
Edit: If you have Tried this Tweek on PS4 with other than a Fanatec wheel and used GM FFB that explains why your wheel would feel Heavy and Forces may be strong.
IMO Pcars for Consol GM FFB is Not Needed unless you are using a Fanatec Wheel with PS4.
XBox 1 with Fanatec V2 wheels GM FFB should be between 25 to 30 this you will Have to test depending on How strong you Like your wheel and Fanatec wheel used.
Other wheels you Must set your GM FFB according to your wheel Recommended FFB settings then Test + or - to get the desired at the Wheel FFB strength thats right for you:yes:
I don't know. Seems like that understeer is costing you time. In a lot of those corners, the tires aren't on the edge of grip, they're over it, already broken grip. No... You can't cure understeer with FFB, but if you're FFB has a good dynamic range, you can feel feel it, and then adjust your line to reduce it. If you can't feel it, then you just power through it. Oversaturation masks the feeling of understeer. If I drove like that with my settings, I'd feel the understeer-related loss of grip loss, the wheel would get lighter, and it would feel like I was over turning it to get through the corner. None of which would be considered good, so I'd adjust my line to prevent/reduce the understeer.
Yes. I've tried your settings on the CSW-v2. I got my wheel around 6.0 and have tried a few versions since then.
Also... I'm not sure what you mean by GM FFB not being needed on consoles, unless you're using a Fanatec wheel.
Edit: I know you don't think your settings are oversaturated, but IIRC, you've mentioned several times that PCars doesn't have any dynamic feel in corners, and that you only feel a constant resistance, instead. But PCars does have dynamic range in the corners (maybe not as much as other games, but it's there). Feeling constant resistance during cornering is a sign of oversaturation. So is, not being able to feel understeer.
Have you tried jacks .85 rac, rab ill get to that and rag 1.50 as a starting point? These settings modify the ffb curve. Somewhere in here tennebaum had a graph that showed what happened. Rab is a time based value id recommend trying lower values. If set too high the forces will hang and grab. Youll see when you turn it down more or up to .10. If you play with rab leave the other two settings the same so only rab has an effect. Rac is the starting value it works around but has other effects like having an effect on wheel weight . From what I can tell too low youll start to lose low forces and too high you gain more wheel weight than ffb benefits. Rag seems to have an effect on how strong the forces get which makes sense with the name. The reason it feels better is it livens up the ffb it makes more sense when you see the graph. Ok if I missed anything or am just plain wrong somebody chime in.
I toyed with this last night. Not sure why but it doesn't feel like I remember. Might be my new globals. But raising it to .12 actually felt a little better, I had even more subtle slip feel in the Formula A. But in the GT3, it didn't feel as good. The wheel was lighter, but I didn't sense any improvement in slip feel. I'm going to try the GT3 again, raising the Master Scale a click or two to compensate for the lighter feel. I was using the F1 rim with the FA. The GT rim is heavier and provides more leverage, so maybe that's why I couldn't feel the slip as well.
When I lowered it, it just didn't feel right to me. But I may have gone too far. I tried RAB at .05, which was lower than I remember trying it in the past. I'm gonna try it at 0.08. I think that's what I had it before and got the tighter, more responsive feel. But as I type this, I'm starting to remember past trials. I think I was torn between 0.08 and 0.12 (tighter feel vs. more liveliness), which might be why I left Jack's settings at 0.10, a way of splitting the difference. :confused:
I toyed with this last night. Not sure why but it doesn't feel like I remember. Might be my new globals. But raising it to .12 actually felt a little better, I had even more subtle slip feel in the Formula A. But in the GT3, it didn't feel as good. The wheel was lighter, but I didn't sense any improvement in slip feel. I'm going to try the GT3 again, raising the Master Scale a click or two to compensate for the lighter feel. I was using the F1 rim with the FA. The GT rim is heavier and provides more leverage, so maybe that's why I couldn't feel the slip as well.
When I lowered it, it just didn't feel right to me. But I may have gone too far. I tried RAB at .05, which was lower than I remember trying it in the past. I'm gonna try it at 0.08. I think that's what I had it before and got the tighter, more responsive feel. But as I type this, I'm starting to remember past trials. I think I was torn between 0.08 and 0.12 (tighter feel vs. more liveliness), which might be why I left Jack's settings at 0.10, a way of splitting the difference. :confused:
It could be mechanical differences between our wheels too. Besides you guys with have more settings to play with then we do on the t300 that effect things. So it could just come down to that. I know when you set it that high on a t300 it gets very difficult to catch the car because the stronger forces hang even when braking hard you can feel it. It almost feels like you didn't release the brake but you did.
It could be mechanical differences between our wheels too. Besides you guys with have more settings to play with then we do on the t300 that effect things. So it could just come down to that. I know when you set it that high on a t300 it gets very difficult to catch the car because the stronger forces hang even when braking hard you can feel it. It almost feels like you didn't release the brake but you did.
I think you're right. I tried it again this morning. There seems to be a range for me (0.08 - 0.12) that I can work with. 0.08 delivered the slightly tighter feel I was referring to earlier. 0.12 enhanced the slip feeling, but I started to get the feeling that it wasn't really doing it in a good way. I think it might be the drag effect that you mentioned. Basically, I think it's the same slip dynamic I get with RAB=0.10, but at 0.12 it's being extended. It seems like an improvement, but only because the longer duration makes the slip feel easier to detect. But, at the same time, the longer duration might be a little misleading and costing time. So I'm gonna stick with RAB=0.10.
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 15:05
I don't know. Seems like that understeer is costing you time. In a lot of those corners, the tires aren't on the edge of grip, they're over it, already broken grip. No... You can't cure understeer with FFB, but if you're FFB has a good dynamic range, you can feel feel it, and then adjust your line to reduce it. If you can't feel it, then you just power through it. Oversaturation masks the feeling of understeer. If I drove like that with my settings, I'd feel the understeer-related loss of grip loss, the wheel would get lighter, and it would feel like I was over turning it to get through the corner. None of which would be considered good, so I'd adjust my line to prevent/reduce the understeer.
Yes. I've tried your settings on the CSW-v2. I got my wheel around 6.0 and have tried a few versions since then.
Also... I'm not sure what you mean by GM FFB not being needed on consoles, unless you're using a Fanatec wheel.
Edit: I know you don't think your settings are oversaturated, but IIRC, you've mentioned several times that PCars doesn't have any dynamic feel in corners, and that you only feel a constant resistance, instead. But PCars does have dynamic range in the corners (maybe not as much as other games, but it's there). Feeling constant resistance during cornering is a sign of oversaturation. So is, not being able to feel understeer.
I dunno Haiden... LOL... It was a FFB Test Not a Hot Lap... I was Really Just Throwing the Car Around Testing the FFB.
It is Not Possible that the FFB is Over Satuated... As you can See in the FFB Graph that there is pleanty of Room Between the Subtle FFB and the Stronger FFB Forces... Thats why i was Scrubbing the Tires in the Corners and Hitting Rumble Strip to illustrate that point... BTW Thats a Old Video alsoi didn't just Make that but it still uses RAC 75 I made that when i went back to Readjust the GM FFB.
Yes We All Know you prefer JS settings thats Fine with Me:yes: that doe's Not Meannthat other settings dont work:yes:
If you Like GM FFB 100 enjoy it... But it is My opinion that Game Master FFB is Not Needed for PS4 unless your using a Fanatec wheel... It wa Not always this way they changed the GM FFB after 6.0 is My best guess but before then GM FFB 35 was always the Sweet spot for Me on PS4... Remember your the 1 who convinced Me they Changed it... You were Right about that 1. Thnx.
How about you post a FFB Graph Video:yes: That would be Great.
I dunno Haiden... LOL... It was a FFB Test Not a Hot Lap... I was Really Just Throwing the Car Around Testing the FFB.
It is Not Possible that the FFB is Over Satuated... As you can See in the FFB Graph that there is pleanty of Room Between the Subtle FFB and the Stronger FFB Forces... Thats why i was Scrubbing the Tires in the Corners and Hitting Rumble Strip to illustrate that point... BTW Thats a Old Video alsoi didn't just Make that but it still uses RAC 75 I made that when i went back to Readjust the GM FFB.
Yes We All Know you prefer JS settings thats Fine with Me:yes: that doe's Not Meannthat other settings dont work:yes:
If you Like GM FFB 100 enjoy it... But it is My opinion that Game Master FFB is Not Needed for PS4 unless your using a Fanatec wheel... It wa Not always this way they changed the GM FFB after 6.0 is My best guess but before then GM FFB 35 was always the Sweet spot for Me on PS4... Remember your the 1 who convinced Me they Changed it... You were Right about that 1. Thnx.
How about you post a FFB Graph Video:yes: That would be Great.
The peak height of the telemetry line doesn't really have anything to do with saturation. Oversaturation isn't the same as clipping. However, the fact that your low forces are rising to 85-90% force, IMO, is a sign of oversaturation. There's a reason they are referred to subtle forces, and there's nothing subtle about feedback in the 85-90% force range. If your subtle forces are rising 85-90%, then that means you only have a 10-15% variance between subtle and high forces. IMO, that's oversaturation. But, whatever... If you're happy with it, that's cool. I'm not debating or trying to convince you of anything. I was just commenting on what I saw in the video.
I've never said other settings don't work. And I've never claimed that mine are the best. I've tried quite a few settings from others that I think are totally fine and could actually use myself. They have great dynamic range, low noise, and good subtle slip feel. Remember, I just started using Jack's settings about two or three months ago and made some minor adjustments. But prior to that, I was using and exploring a lot of other options. In fact, I learned quite a bit from listening to, and trying, what others were doing.
I'm sorry. I still don't understand what you mean by GM FFB not being needed. Are you saying it should be set to 0? Because if it's not set to zero, then it is needed, right? I'm just confused by the statement. With a PS4/CSW combo the GM FFB seems to be getting overridden, but for non-Fanatec users, why do you say the GM FFB is not needed? They have to set FF to something.
I'll try and post a video tonight. I doubt it will help though, because you seem to view the telemetry differently. I think SMS made a mistake by displaying the FFB telemetry like that, instead of a simple bar that shows when you're clipping. Because with the current display, too many people think a fast dancing line is a sign of good FF/dynamic range. But let me ask you this? What exactly do you think all that chatter in the line is when you're cornering? It's obviously not grip/slip, because that's not how either of those look. So, with all that chatter going on, where is the subtle feeling of grip/slip you need to feel when negotiating a corner? IMO, that chatter is due to oversaturation, and it's also the reason you don't experience the dynamic cornering feel--it's there; it's just being drowned out by all that noise pushing and holding in the 85-90% range. I'm sure it feels like road/surface texture, and if that's your preference, great. It's just not mine. Slip is typically communicated by a lightening in the wheel. If your force is running up to 85-90% and holding in that range throughout the corner, then where is the slip feel? Again, that's just my perspective/comment.
So, you'll definitely see a different type of telemetry line when you watch my video. But what you won't see is me encountering as much understeer, because I feel it and adjust my line (entry, apex, and exit) accordingly to reduce it. I'll run it on Watkins Short for comparison, but I'm not as familiar with the track, so mine won't be a hot lap either.
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 16:31
The peak height of the telemetry line doesn't really have anything to do with saturation. Oversaturation isn't the same as clipping. However, the fact that your low forces are rising to 85-90% force, IMO, is a sign of oversaturation. There's a reason they are referred to subtle forces, and there's nothing subtle about feedback in the 85-90% force range. If your subtle forces are rising 85-90%, then that means you only have a 10-15% variance between subtle and high forces. IMO, that's oversaturation. But, whatever... If you're happy with it, that's cool. I'm not debating or trying to convince you of anything. I was just commenting on what I saw in the video.
I've never said other settings don't work. And I've never claimed that mine are the best. I've tried quite a few settings from others that I think are totally fine and could actually use. They have great dynamic range, low noise, and good subtle slip feel. Remember, I just started using Jack's settings about two or three months ago and made some minor adjustments. But prior to that, I was using and exploring a lot of other options. In fact, I learned quite a bit from listening to and trying what others were doing.
I'm sorry. I still don't understand what you mean by GM FFB not being needed. Are you saying it should be set to 0? Because if it's not set to zero, then it is needed, right? I'm just confused by the statement. With a PS4/CSW combo the GM FFB seems to be getting overridden, but for non-Fanatec users, why do you say the GM FFB is not needed? They have to set FF to something.
I'll try and post a video tonight. I doubt it will help though, because you seem to view the telemetry differently. I think SMS made a mistake by displaying the FFB telemetry like that, instead of a simple bar that shows when you're clipping. Because with the current display, too many people think a fast dancing line is a sign of good FF/dynamic range. But let me ask you this? What exactly do you think that all that chatter is in the line when you're cornering? It's obviously not grip/slip, because that's not how either of those look. So, with all that chatter going on, where is the subtle feeling of grip/slip you need to feel when negotiating a corner? IMO, that chatter is due to oversaturation, and it's also the reason you don't experience the dynamic cornering feel--it's there; it's just being drowned out by all that noise. I'm sure it feels like road/surface texture, and if that's your preference, great. It's just not mine. So, you'll definitely see a different telemetry line when you watch my video. But what you see is me encountering as much understeer. I'll run it on Watkins Short for comparison, but I'm not as familiar with the track, so mine won't be a hot lap either.
You should post a Vidoe that Shows what its Supposed to Look Like:yes:
But in any event Im Not Looking to get into a Edison VS Tesla FFB pissing Contest:D.... Look at the last 10 pages of post... Its Only you Haiden thats Hyper Critical of My Every Post:confused: that really Makes Me wonder about you:strawberry: We Get it... I get it you like JS tweek ok fine i get it... Some people like the Relative settings some Dont... Some use Scoop settings Some Dont... Some Like JS Tweek Some Like Mine... Its ok with Me that you like JS better....Take a Look there are over 100,000 hits to this thread but its only the Same Few that Post!!! I had to Clear My inbox because i get Many Messages that My Tweek works well from people that dont care to post... I even get Messages PS4 and XB1 confirming the Tweek works for Many.... But fine its Not for you i get it... Remember you only Speak for your self you represent you only.
Take a Look i dont post My tboughts on JS or your Tweek ive tried them they are Not for Me... Im Sure that My Tweek feels Good to Me and the Many that use it... I dont Rate it better or worse than any 1's Tweek work.... When your sure of you you have No Need to Proove your self to those that dont see things your way... Yes i have had a word or 2 with JS Mostly about GM FFB on Console I use console 99.95% of the Time and im sure that console did Not Need GM FFB until SMS changed the way GM FFB works with Fanatec Wheels and PS4... For XB1 the GM FFB is Still the same GM FFB 100 is Not Needed... JS would Not Know this he does Not use Console... But for those that follow him and his Method Fine with Me....Lets Not Create a Hostile environment in Here and Deter New People from posting... There are Many that inbox to confirm that they like the tweek but would Rather Not post and Create conflict.
Post your FFB Video and Visually Show this FFB your talking about... that would be Great.
Different Peiple like different things FFB is a Matter if Taste there is No Right there is No wrong... there is only what works per individual Ex: You dont even use JS settings 1 to 1... But thanks for your Help it was you who prodded Me to Re work My FFB with RAC 75 and it is Better than Ever:victorious:
Post the Video use the same Ford Mk1V and same Trac so we can compare...thanks. Grimey Dog
I also think your FFB is extremely saturated at the base level and I have told you that before, but I do not have the technical knowledge to prove that so I'm watching from the sidelines. Yes there is no right or wrong, but there is a more pure approach and there is a saturated approach. I, and others as it seems, think you are running oversaturated FFB withouth realising, because you are being tricked by RAs among other things. It's not a bad thing, if you are feeling things you care about and the FFB is helping your driving, it's all good. But there doesn't appear to be any subtle feel in that FFB line. You might think that because you have a very low in-game FFB level, that is what I am thinking. Anyway, i don't have the means to prove it, but those are my thoughts after testing many many hours and watching some well built ffb lines. I think the main problem is what Haiden wrote, there is very little in-between in the ffb graph. You start turning and you're hitting close to max FFb graph and staying there. Everything is elevated into the high forces. It might not FEEL strong because you are running low ffb in-game, but you have essentially lost ffb range, that's what I think from watching the driving in conjuction with the ffb graph.
Ekay.jay
03-05-2016, 16:45
Does it really matter though that it is/isn't saturated? As long as grimey likes his settings that's all that really matters. Iv seen numerous other people use his settings and have no complaints. There is no right/wrong, there is only what feels good to you and what doesn't.
You should post a Vidoe that Shows what its Supposed to Look Like:yes:
But in any event Im Not Looking to get into a Edison VS Tesla FFB pissing Contest:D.... Look at the last 10 pages of post... Its Only you Haiden thats Hyper Critical of My Every Post:confused: that really Makes Me wonder about you:strawberry: We Get it... I get it you like JS tweek ok fine i get it... Some people like the Relative settings some Dont... Some use Scoop settings Some Dont... Some Like JS Tweek Some Like Mine... Its ok with Me that you like JS better....Take a Look there are over 100,000 hits to this thread but its only the Same Few that Post!!! I had to Clear My inbox because i get Many Messages that My Tweek works well from people that dont care to post... I even get Messages PS4 and XB1 confirming the Tweek works for Many.... But fine its Not for you i get it... Remember you only Speak for your self you represent you only.
Take a Look i dont post My tboughts on JS or your Tweek ive tried them they are Not for Me... Im Sure that My Tweek feels Good to Me and the Many that use it... I dont Rate it better or worse than any 1's Tweek work.... When your sure of you you have No Need to Proove your self to those that dont see things your way... Yes i have had a word or 2 with JS Mostly about GM FFB on Console I use console 99.95% of the Time and im sure that console did Not Need GM FFB until SMS changed the way GM FFB works with PS4... For XB1 the GMnFFB is Still the same GM FFB 100 is Not Needed... JS would Not Know this he does Not use Console... But for those that follow him and his Method Fine with Me....Kets Not Create a Histile environment in Here and Deter New People from pisting... There are Many that inbox to confirm that they like the tweek but would Rather Not post and Create conflict.
Post your FFB Video and Visually Show this FFB your talking about... that would be Great.
Different Peiple like different things FFB is a Matter if Taste there is No Right there is No wrong... there is onky what works per individual... But thanks for your Help it was you who prodded Me to Re work My FFB with RAC 75 and it is Better than Ever:victorious:
Post the Video use the same Ford Mk1V and same Trac so we can compare...thanks. Grimey Dog
I honestly don't care what you post. I only comment for the sake of clarity for others that are trying to figure out their settings. Like above you repeatedly said GM FFB is not needed for consoles. But only in the last post did you clarify GM FFB =100 is not needed. Now that makes sense. What you said before didn't. Forgive me for wanting to clarity. To me, that's an important part of communication.
Grimey, you don't need to wonder about me. I have no interest in you beyond trying to establishing a clarity of terms in this thread, so we don't confuse newcomers. That being said, I for one, would appreciate it if you'd stop with the gay references. Not because I give two craps (it's actually extremely juvenile, which is why I've ignored it until now), but because it's insulting to anyone on this forum that is gay. Whenever you use the term or insinuation sarcastically or to demean someone that isn't gay, you are actually insulting people who are. Because, if you didn't think there was anything wrong with it, you wouldn't use it as an insult. :strawberry: Just saying. :rolleyes:
Again, my comments to you are not about your preference of settings. I don't care what you drive with. My comments are for clarity sake. You say power and saturation are the same thing. They aren't; and that's something that new comers need to understand. You say you're not oversaturated because you're not breaking the ceiling in the telemetry window. That's not how you detect oversaturation. I respond because clarity is important. You're not the only one I respond to in this manner. If no one responds, then people think we're all in agreement, which is how we ended up with so many people using the paint line at Wakins to judge the quality of their FFB.
Also, the atmosphere in here was fine, until you posted your comment about me feeling special or something or whatever. That's where it got derailed. (Again, clarity is important. :) ) Prior to that, I don't recall ever insulting you. And I apologize for allowing myself to be dragged down into that playground nonsense.
And please understand, I'm not trolling you. That's not even what trolling is. I don't follow you around this community commenting on your every post. I've seen you post in other threads that I'm commenting in, and don't recall ever replying to any of your comments outside of this form (and the league). I respond to you here and the league thread, because we are both a part of these ongoing group discussions. If you don't want people to comment or disagree with you, then don't post in a public forums/group discussions.
Does it really matter though that it is/isn't saturated? As long as grimey likes his settings that's all that really matters. Iv seen numerous other people use his settings and have no complaints. There is no right/wrong, there is only what feels good to you and what doesn't.
No one is saying that he's wrong for using them. A lot of people like heavy saturation. That is known. And no one cares if that's your preference or not. I just think, at some point, we need to be able to define what oversaturation is. Otherwise, how are people to know what their settings are doing?
Some people like feather light FFB. Is that wrong? No. Some people like FFB so strong, you don't even need to hit the gym after a ten lap race. Is that wrong? No. It's not about right or wrong. But I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to help people get up running quickly. How can they do that if we're all using the same term to describe five different things?
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 17:24
I also think your FFB is extremely saturated at the base level and I have told you that before, but I do not have the technical knowledge to prove that so I'm watching from the sidelines. Yes there is no right or wrong, but there is a more pure approach and there is a saturated approach. I, and others as it seems, think you are running oversaturated FFB withouth realising, because you are being tricked by RAs among other things. It's not a bad thing, if you are feeling things you care about and the FFB is helping your driving, it's all good. But there doesn't appear to be any subtle feel in that FFB line. You might think that because you have a very low in-game FFB level, that is what I am thinking. Anyway, i don't have the means to prove it, but those are my thoughts after testing many many hours and watching some well built ffb lines. I think the main problem is what Haiden wrote, there is very little in-between in the ffb graph. You start turning and you're hitting close to max FFb graph and staying there. Everything is elevated into the high forces. It might not FEEL strong because you are running low ffb in-game, but you have essentially lost ffb range, that's what I think from watching the driving in conjuction with the ffb graph.
No one is saying that he's wrong for using them. A lot of people like heavy saturation. That is known. And no one cares if that's your preference or not. I just think, at some point, we need to be able to define what oversaturation is. Otherwise, how are people to know what their settings are doing?
Some people like feather light FFB. Is that wrong? No. Some people like FFB so strong, you don't even need to hit the gym after a ten lap race. Is that wrong? No. It's not about right or wrong. But I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to help people get up running quickly. How can they do that if we're all using the same term to describe five different things?
Its Very Simple... as it States in the PDF You can + or - The in Car Masters until the Feel is Right for you per Car... All the Guess work is Gone... Then after you get your desired wheel weight/Saturation by setting the Masters to your Taste then you can set the Fx,Fy SoP etc to get the Feel you Like Most... Thats Clearly Stated in PDF... No tweek is perfect for every 1 you Must Make your Own Final adjustments... Tha Masters 100 is Not a Must... Adjusting feel by Masters Keep it very simple.
Hopefully you can get tbings to your liking but if Not there are Many Tweeks out there to use... Pcars FFB was designed tis way beause SMS realized that FFB is Not a 1 FFB fits all thing.
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 17:26
Post your FFB Video... That would be Great... Maybe i can Learn Something.
spacepadrille
03-05-2016, 17:46
I think you're right. I tried it again this morning. There seems to be a range for me (0.08 - 0.12) that I can work with. 0.08 delivered the slightly tighter feel I was referring to earlier. 0.12 enhanced the slip feeling, but I started to get the feeling that it wasn't really doing it in a good way. I think it might be the drag effect that you mentioned. Basically, I think it's the same slip dynamic I get with RAB=0.10, but at 0.12 it's being extended. It seems like an improvement, but only because the longer duration makes the slip feel easier to detect. But, at the same time, the longer duration might be a little misleading and costing time. So I'm gonna stick with RAB=0.10.
Haiden, Morpwr convince me to try low RAB a long time ago. At the beginning, I was not really convinced, feeling the wheel too light and so on. After a while, I tried to start my cession of the day with RAB set to 0.02, so very low. I played like that all night. The day after, I played again like that one full hour, and after that I raised RAB to 0.10. What a difference ! It was not drivable like that anymore for me ! And I came this way to my actual sweet spot of RAB set to 0.03... ;-)
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 17:54
Haiden, Morpwr convince me to try low RAB a long time ago. At the beginning, I was not really convinced, feeling the wheel too light and so on. After a while, I tried to start my cession of the day with RAB set to 0.02, so very low. I played like that all night. The day after, I played again like that one full hour, and after that I raised RAB to 0.10. What a difference ! It was not drivable like that anymore for me ! And I came this way to my actual sweet spot of RAB set to 0.03... ;-)
I agree with this i used to use RAB 0.12... I am Now at RAB 0.08 feels Much Better... and also tightens up wheel center:yes:
Jezza819
03-05-2016, 17:56
No one is saying that he's wrong for using them. A lot of people like heavy saturation. That is known. And no one cares if that's your preference or not. I just think, at some point, we need to be able to define what oversaturation is. Otherwise, how are people to know what their settings are doing?
Some people like feather light FFB. Is that wrong? No. Some people like FFB so strong, you don't even need to hit the gym after a ten lap race. Is that wrong? No. It's not about right or wrong. But I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to help people get up running quickly. How can they do that if we're all using the same term to describe five different things?
Speaking for myself I certainly would like to know what oversaturation, or saturation in general means because I certainly have no clue what you guys are talking about.
Haiden, Morpwr convince me to try low RAB a long time ago. At the beginning, I was not really convinced, feeling the wheel too light and so on. After a while, I tried to start my cession of the day with RAB set to 0.02, so very low. I played like that all night. The day after, I played again like that one full hour, and after that I raised RAB to 0.10. What a difference ! It was not drivable like that anymore for me ! And I came this way to my actual sweet spot of RAB set to 0.03... ;-)
What's your RAG and RAC set to? I think when I last tried the lower RAB settings, I was running RAG/RAC closer to the defaults. I wonder if RAG=1.50 is why the lower settings feel so different to me. When I set it to 0.05, it wasn't just that it felt lighter, it also greatly reduced my slip feel. I only had about 30 minutes this morning. I'll try again tonight when I have more time.
Speaking for myself I certainly would like to know what oversaturation, or saturation in general means because I certainly have no clue what you guys are talking about.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1272030&viewfull=1#post1272030
spacepadrille
03-05-2016, 18:20
What's your RAG and RAC set to? I think when I last tried the lower RAB settings, I was running RAG/RAC closer to the defaults. I wonder if RAG=1.50 is why the lower settings feel so different to me. When I set it to 0.05, it wasn't just that it felt lighter, it also greatly reduced my slip feel. I only had about 30 minutes this morning. I'll try again tonight when I have more time.
RAG 1.50 RAC 0.85 you can see it there http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/130
very similar to morpwr's setting...
spacepadrille
03-05-2016, 18:33
Maybe with RAB we can more talk about a "before slip feel" than a real "slip feel". High RAB induce a lot of feeling supposed to be the tires slip force. My impression is that high RAB induce a lot of noise about what the tyres are GOING to do, not about what they actually do. I'm running more fast with low RAB, because when I feel something like understeer or slip, it's what is actually happening, not what will happen in a few millisec if I continue like that. Maybe I'm completely wrong, I don't know, but it is how I feel with RAB.
inthebagbud
03-05-2016, 18:46
back on track :applause:If we are discussing RA this was my post yesterday which kinda got lost :sorrow:
So Tennenbaum are you running CLP at 2.00? I run it like that before it's OK you think BL gets better? when I did it I was using a high BL and low gain as I'm thinking about it I never did raise SG 1.00 so I tested RAG 50 BL75 CLP 2.00 I felt a lower gain Helped the sticky feel. But if I would of raised SG it been the same effect of a high gain but I did test a gain of 0.40 I lost wheel weight But if I was thinking at the time SG added might of been a nice feel idk. But a high bleed is nice you get that heavy wheel then the light wheel when you lock up but the sticky part ruins it. And ain't RA part of the g force's? Ok I was just about to give today's update on the RA side of my ffb tweak but this post has thrown a bit of a curve ball. I experimented with RA all afternoon and my report was going to be I can see what RA is doing to the curve but I do not like it and was going to say that until this post. I need somebody to explain what .5 .75 2 are actually doing as I like them and knocked over half second of my time in the current challenge.! I do wish people would stop posting ideas !!
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 18:49
Agree 100% Lets get back on Track:yes:
Maybe with RAB we can more talk about a "before slip feel" than a real "slip feel". High RAB induce a lot of feeling supposed to be the tires slip force. My impression is that high RAB induce a lot of noise about what the tyres are GOING to do, not about what they actually do. I'm running more fast with low RAB, because when I feel something like understeer or slip, it's what is actually happening, not what will happen in a few millisec if I continue like that. Maybe I'm completely wrong, I don't know, but it is how I feel with RAB.
Interesting. I was thinking something similar, but I thought it was more of a lingering effect. That the slip feel was being drawn out, which gives the impression that you're encountering more slip than you actually are. But based on what you just said, perhaps the illusion is coming in front of the real slip, and not after.
tennenbaum
03-05-2016, 19:06
Speaking for myself I certainly would like to know what oversaturation, or saturation in general means because I certainly have no clue what you guys are talking about.
saturation: you drink 5 beers, than you order another one, you know it won't make a difference, you'll have a headache the next morning anyway.
then you order another 5 pints. next morning you don't remember the details, exept it was kind of 'intense'... :p i'd call that a solid hangover, Haiden would call it 'oversaturation'. grimey would would call it "let's the f... race...!"
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 19:23
I also think your FFB is extremely saturated at the base level and I have told you that before, but I do not have the technical knowledge to prove that so I'm watching from the sidelines. Yes there is no right or wrong, but there is a more pure approach and there is a saturated approach. I, and others as it seems, think you are running oversaturated FFB withouth realising, because you are being tricked by RAs among other things. It's not a bad thing, if you are feeling things you care about and the FFB is helping your driving, it's all good. But there doesn't appear to be any subtle feel in that FFB line. You might think that because you have a very low in-game FFB level, that is what I am thinking. Anyway, i don't have the means to prove it, but those are my thoughts after testing many many hours and watching some well built ffb lines. I think the main problem is what Haiden wrote, there is very little in-between in the ffb graph. You start turning and you're hitting close to max FFb graph and staying there. Everything is elevated into the high forces. It might not FEEL strong because you are running low ffb in-game, but you have essentially lost ffb range, that's what I think from watching the driving in conjuction with the ffb graph.
I would agree that the prior tweek for 7.0, 8.0 may have been saturated especially after they changed the FFB with the updates... but Not this 1
The Subtle feel is very Much there...You would just have to try it for your self. I dont know what wheel your using but For fanatec wheels with PS4 GM FFB is Now 100 and it seems that the GM FFB is set from the wheel FFB... This means GM FFB 1 or 100 it makes No difference and the FFB level is set by what FFB you have set on your wheel... If you are using other than a Fanatec wheel you must set your GM FFB according to your wheel to set the at the wheel FFB strength you like.... and again the cars can be adjusted to FFB taste by + or - the in car masters to taste. I like my masters 100 but 100 masters is Not a must its all about what FFB level feels good to you... Try My RAC 75 for your self then post.... it would be interesting to Read your fresh thoughts on it.
Roger Prynne
03-05-2016, 19:33
I sounds to me like you guys are just going around in circles, why don't you just find something you like and stick with it and do more racing? :indecisiveness: :playful:
Don't take this seriously as I'm just messing with you :highly_amused:
LordDRIFT
03-05-2016, 19:39
A year later and this post is still going strong huh..smh
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 19:43
saturation: you drink 5 beers, than you order another one, you know it won't make a difference, you'll have a headache the next morning anyway.
then you order another 5 pints. next morning you don't remember the details, exept it was kind of 'intense'... :p i'd call that a solid hangover, Haiden would call it 'oversaturation'. grimey would would call it "let's the f... race...!"
Yes but remember Over saturated, Saturated, too Weak Not Enough feel is purely about individual taste and preference.
Ex: when i tried JS, Haidens setting they are just too weak Not enough feel for Me... I feel like Hercules tossing the wheel around like a feather:indecisiveness: The FFB your comfortable with has alot to do with upper body strength also:victorious: LOL Who Need a Gym when you can have Strong FFB:p
https://youtu.be/hlP115pUUxc
This Guy Must be The Hulk!!! Look at the Fight in his wheel!!! LOL I Need that wheel!!! Hmmm PC and Accuforce??? Hmmm Summer time upgrade:encouragement: Hmmm...
tennenbaum
03-05-2016, 20:16
Yes but remember Over saturated, Saturated, too Weak Not Enough feel is purely about individual taste and preference.
Ex: when i tried JS, Haidens setting they are just too weak Not enough feel for Me... I feel like Hercules tossing the wheel around like a feather:indecisiveness: The FFB your comfortable with has alot to do with upper body strength also:victorious: LOL Who Need a Gym when you can have Strong FFB:p
https://youtu.be/hlP115pUUxc
This Guy Must be The Hulk!!! Look at the Fight in his wheel!!! LOL I Need that wheel!!! Hmmm PC and Accuforce??? Hmmm Summer time upgrade:encouragement: Hmmm...
i can confirm on that. tried your settings an hour ago. was on the kart track yesterday, don't know what gave me more of a workout... lol. though, confirm #2, can't remember steering details, except i was fighting the wheel, and was far from being fast until i really pushed, pushed, pushed...
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 21:17
i can confirm on that. tried your settings an hour ago. was on the kart track yesterday, don't know what gave me more of a workout... lol. though, confirm #2, can't remember steering details, except i was fighting the wheel, and was far from being fast until i really pushed, pushed, pushed...
LOL... the simple fix would be just like any other Tweek to adjust TF or in car Masters to best get the preferred Wheel weight that feels best for your personal taste:yes: once you find the sweet spot then Go Go Go... I think others had lost sight of this simple point...No 1 tweek is perfect for all there will always have to be Minor adjustments made to fit personal taste... Reading the post most even JS tweeks need to be adjusted to individual taste...The Rac 75 Tweek is no different it must be personalized to individual preference... it even staes that in the PDF so i dont know why some seemed to have lost track of that simple fact...Shrugggs:confused: I just Hope that we can get back on track Now:yes:
Speaking for myself I certainly would like to know what oversaturation, or saturation in general means because I certainly have no clue what you guys are talking about.
Its sort of really hard to describe properly until you see for yourself. This was probably the most difficult thing for me to get also in the beginning of tweaking. What happens is you lose the small forces and basically wind up with more wheel weight then actual detail. The stronger forces will still be there but things like tire scrub will be gone. If you have settings that work for you now try turning sg up without letting it clip. At some point you will start getting more wheel weight than actual increases in the strength of the forces and details will go away. Your getting into saturation at that point. Problem is if your used to running a saturated setting it will feel weird without it at first. It will feel lighter and forces wont be as strong but you will have more small details. But you can just increase the ffb master a couple to bring the level back up without upsetting the balance. Something else for you to play with now.lol
tennenbaum
03-05-2016, 21:44
Haiden, Morpwr convince me to try low RAB a long time ago. At the beginning, I was not really convinced, feeling the wheel too light and so on. After a while, I tried to start my cession of the day with RAB set to 0.02, so very low. I played like that all night. The day after, I played again like that one full hour, and after that I raised RAB to 0.10. What a difference ! It was not drivable like that anymore for me ! And I came this way to my actual sweet spot of RAB set to 0.03... ;-)
"Be experimental with RAG, RAB and RAC, you may like it: Set RAG to 1.3 or higher, RAB to 0.02 - 0.04 (instead of 0.98 what's mostly recommended), and RAC to 2.00 (to avoid any unwanted limiting) you may be stunned how lively and "free-ed" your wheel gets, while keeping the "sharpness" and "accentuation" that you wanted from the RAG in the first place, but without the "clanking" often coming along with RAG and long RA-Bleeding."
...glad to see how we can explore, test and progress together on territories that were uncharted before. ideas, assumptions, theories, share of practical experience, critical/witty attitude while being sharp about evidence and relevance, plus a healthy share of entertaining emotions. ... there is a reason why this thread became one of the most popular long living threads in this forum.
tennenbaum
03-05-2016, 22:00
I sounds to me like you guys are just going around in circles, why don't you just find something you like and stick with it and do more racing? :indecisiveness: :playful:
Don't take this seriously as I'm just messing with you :highly_amused:
going around in circles... isn't that racing... :highly_amused:
"Be experimental with RAG, RAB and RAC, you may like it: Set RAG to 1.3 or higher, RAB to 0.02 - 0.04 (instead of 0.98 what's mostly recommended), and RAC to 2.00 (to avoid any unwanted limiting) you may be stunned how lively and "free-ed" your wheel gets, while keeping the "sharpness" and "accentuation" that you wanted from the RAG in the first place, but without the "clanking" often coming along with RAG and long RA-Bleeding."
...glad to see how we can explore, test and progress together on territories that were uncharted before. ideas, assumptions, theories, share of practical experience, critical/witty attitude while being sharp about evidence and relevance, plus a healthy element of entertaining emotions. ... there is a reason why this thread became one of the most popular long living threads in this forum.
I'm gonna mess around with it tonight, particularly the higher RAC. I'm already running RAG at 1.50. The lower bleed and higher clamp are something to try. Are people really recommending RAB=0.98? Have you tried that?
tennenbaum
03-05-2016, 22:23
I'm gonna mess around with it tonight, particularly the higher RAC. I'm already running RAG at 1.50. The lower bleed and higher clamp are something to try. Are people really recommending RAB=0.98? Have you tried that?
RAB = 0.98? I think someone must have mixed it up with RAG = 0.98, or RAC = 0.98.
Frankly, i thought i decrypted the RA module, but i didn't. Which is really really bad, cause i wanted to get that done before Uncharted 4 hits the stores... :D, not kidding :D:D Try to set RAG to low values and let's share the confusion about it together.
I'm missing skoaders and JS voice here when it comes to RA... Poirqc really puzzled me with his idea that RAG = 1 leaves the original signal unchanged. I tested it. I was sure that is impossible. But couldn't confirm on my assumption for sure. It's wicked: If poirqc is right (and he usually is) with RAG around 1.00 no delta torque would be applied, even while the RA module is switched on... So SMS would use the RAG/B/C module by default just and only for the benefit of the soft limiting effect of RAC (with little to no effect of how you set bleeding). While JS utilizes RAG for what it seems to be made for in the first place... to spice up FFB. (Casey Ringley, hear my praise , give us word, so we can stop guessing... assumptions are the mother of all... ;)
going around in circles... isn't that racing... :highly_amused:
It is in the states lol
I'm gonna mess around with it tonight, particularly the higher RAC. I'm already running RAG at 1.50. The lower bleed and higher clamp are something to try. Are people really recommending RAB=0.98? Have you tried that?
I don't see how rab at .98 could work. That would be almost a full second because that's what rab is a time. That would seem like a crazy long bleed time unless somehow rac and rag could negate the negative effects of that but I don't see how. I don't want too start playing again but I see it coming.....
I don't see how rab at .98 could work. That would be almost a full second because that's what rab is a time. That would seem like a crazy long bleed time unless somehow rac and rag could negate the negative effects of that but I don't see how. I don't want too start playing again but I see it coming.....
It's probably a typo, IIRC, RAG default to 0,98.
GrimeyDog
03-05-2016, 23:24
Take Note that when adjusting your Global Settings the RAG has a Extra Space between 1.00 and 1.01 that reads 1.00 still... Test it go to 1.00 press to increase you will Note that it will Not change until you press again.
The Steering Gain is also like this between 1.00 and 1.01
IMO that Middle Gap space between 1.00 and 1.01 may throw your settings off in both cases because even though it reads 1.00 when your in the Screen when you exit and come back it will be set to 1.01
gotdirt410sprintcar
04-05-2016, 00:28
I don't see how rab at .98 could work. That would be almost a full second because that's what rab is a time. That would seem like a crazy long bleed time unless somehow rac and rag could negate the negative effects of that but I don't see how. I don't want too start playing again but I see it coming.....
It might work with a low gain then raise SG to get back some of the forces you lose but it does say 1.0 is a good starting point
Take Note that when adjusting your Global Settings the RAG has a Extra Space between 1.00 and 1.01 that reads 1.00 still... Test it go to 1.00 press to increase you will Note that it will Not change until you press again.
The Steering Gain is also like this between 1.00 and 1.01
IMO that Middle Gap space between 1.00 and 1.01 may throw your settings off in both cases because even though it reads 1.00 when your in the Screen when you exit and come back it will be set to 1.01
Ive found a bunch of stuff like that. Actually found a few things that reset the number back to the next one up no matter how many times you try.
It might work with a low gain then raise SG to get back some of the forces you lose but it does say 1.0 is a good starting point
In the official guide, the textbook definition of RAB suggest 1 as a starting point. Just Above, when the write talk about this he uses RAB, he state that above 0,20, it can stick.
However, I prefer the
Relative Adjust Bleed to be a little higher than default at about 0.20. A higher bleed, which is
more time for the dynamic relative force to fade off, allows for more useful “information” to
come through in the high forces. Too high of a bleed however results is “stickiness” of force,
which can start to feel very wrong.
RelativeBleed (Relative Adjust Bleed)
This is a time value for bleeding absolute torque back in. 1.0s is a good starting point
So it seems those 2 statements goes againts each others.
Take Note that when adjusting your Global Settings the RAG has a Extra Space between 1.00 and 1.01 that reads 1.00 still... Test it go to 1.00 press to increase you will Note that it will Not change until you press again.
The Steering Gain is also like this between 1.00 and 1.01
IMO that Middle Gap space between 1.00 and 1.01 may throw your settings off in both cases because even though it reads 1.00 when your in the Screen when you exit and come back it will be set to 1.01
When this happends, after saving a value, you can go back to the menu to check where it's at. That saved value will stay there afterwards.
For SG, if i'm not mistaken, you have 0,99 1,00 1,00 1,01.
If you click from 0,99, it'll stay to SG 1. If you click from 1,01, it'll stay to 1,01.
In the official guide, the textbook definition of RAB suggest 1 as a starting point. Just Above, when the write talk about this he uses RAB, he state that above 0,20, it can sti
So it seems those 2 statements goes againts each others.
Typo maybe and they meant .10? That would make sense.
Post your FFB Video... That would be Great... Maybe i can Learn Something.
I've never driven this car and don't frequent this track, so excuse the driving. But you can clearly see the difference in telemetry. Your signal is constantly either near the top or the bottom. It only operates in the mid to low range when you're on a straight. But as soon as you turn, it shoots into the high ranges. The wheel can't communicate everything simultaneously and subtle forces aren't 85-90% in strength. So if you're signal is constantly shooting between extremes ends, when do the subtle forces get communicated? IMO, that lack of low to mid range activity is oversaturation. That's fine if that's your preference. No right or wrong. But for the sake of clear communication, I think this is pretty good example. At least IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Py_l4k6WQ
I've never driven this car and don't frequent this track, so excuse the driving. But you can clearly see the difference in telemetry. Your signal is constantly either near the top or the bottom. It only operates in the mid to low range when you're on a straight. But as soon as you turn, it shoots into the high ranges. The wheel can't communicate everything simultaneously and subtle forces aren't 85-90% in strength. So if you're signal is constantly shooting between extremes ends, when do the subtle forces get communicated? IMO, that lack of low to mid range activity is oversaturation. That's fine if that's your preference. No right or wrong. But for the sake of clear communication, I think this is pretty good example. At least IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Py_l4k6WQ
I would agree good example. Looks just like mine as far as the hud goes which I expected by your numbers.
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 02:29
https://youtu.be/FeuyaJRhpKg
This Super Kart is Insane!!! It Laps Like a LMP1!!!
Great Feel also... as your watching the FFB Graph Make Note of the Yellow Tire Friction indicators that Surround the Tire Temps...Note How the Friction indicators are in sync with the FFB Graph line... The Feel is Definitly All there.
The Super Kart is a Beast!!!
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 10:23
I've never driven this car and don't frequent this track, so excuse the driving. But you can clearly see the difference in telemetry. Your signal is constantly either near the top or the bottom. It only operates in the mid to low range when you're on a straight. But as soon as you turn, it shoots into the high ranges. The wheel can't communicate everything simultaneously and subtle forces aren't 85-90% in strength. So if you're signal is constantly shooting between extremes ends, when do the subtle forces get communicated? IMO, that lack of low to mid range activity is oversaturation. That's fine if that's your preference. No right or wrong. But for the sake of clear communication, I think this is pretty good example. At least IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Py_l4k6WQ
My FFB Graph the subtle Forces Never use the Graph Full Box Volume Not even under weight transfer only the Stronger Forces Curbs, Big Bumps etc will use the Full Box... I like My FFB Sharp and Crisp.
For Me i like a Tad bit of wheel weight other than that i constantly Over steer.
Your FFB Looks Ok but Looks Less Lively than i like...I like My FFB Tips Sharp so the FFB Feels Crisp...I want to Feel all the Tire Chatter, Sliding and Grip Loss... I can Make My Line like that simply by reducing TF but the wheel Feels Lazy then.
Post your settings i will try them and see how it feels.
https://youtu.be/nnJzNXWqIzs
This is RAC 75... Note How the Weaker Forces Rise 85 to 90% of Graph Box Volume while the Stronger Forces use the whole Box without having the FFB Spike tips Flattend or cut off:yes: also Note that in the corners while Tires are Scrubbing for Grip the FFB line is Very active but when the Scrubbing stops and Track Smooths out that the Line will go as flat as possible:yes:.... if some one could explain whats wrong with this Graph or even better Post a Video showing what you feel the Graph should look like that would be Swell...Who has a FFB Graph video to post and Compare? IMO this FFB is No where Near Saturated.
Remember if you tried this tweek with other than a Fanatec wheel then you Needed to set your GM FFB according to your wheel:yes: Not 100%:no: because that will Cause your wheel to be over powered. IMO Consol GM FFB 100 is Not Needed.... But No Need for debate.
Has anyone got some mad editing skills to over lay these huds ? Or put them side by side ?
G Dog v Haiden .
My FFB Graph the subtle Forces Never use the Graph Full Box Volume Not even under weight transfer only the Stronger Forces Curbs, Big Bumps etc will use the Full Box... I like My FFB Sharp and Crisp.
For Me i like a Tad bit of wheel weight other than that i constantly Over steer.
Your FFB Looks Ok but Looks Less Lively than i like...I like My FFB Tips Sharp so the FFB Feels Crisp...I want to Feel all the Tire Chatter, Sliding and Grip Loss... I can Make My Line like that simply by reducing TF but the wheel Feels Lazy then.
Post your settings i will try them and see how it feels.
Its not really less lively just not as loud might be a better term. Youll still feel everything but jumping from yours to haidens is going to feel all wrong at first. So that's going to be a tough comparison unless you give it a couple days to adjust to the different feel. If you want a heavier wheel just up the ffb on his settings . I'm not being critical here either but I had the same discussion about wheel weight and running heavy wheels. My question was are you running the wheel that heavy because you need to slow your hands down? Basically the weight is covering up the fact youre yanking the wheel on entry. I was doing the same thing without realizing I was doing it. Pulling the wheel instead of pushing it like I should be. Like I said not being critical you can run some fast laps but maybe you can be even faster. Just something to think about.
Turning laps is different to racing with unpredictable this happening and needing a nice maneuverable wheel compared to predictable corner after corner .
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 11:44
https://youtu.be/nnJzNXWqIzs
When your watching the Graph also Take Note of the Yellow Friction Rings thats around the Tire Temps... You can also Note that you will Hear the Tires Scrubbing when the FFB line is Most active...
The FFB Line actially Moves in proportion to the Yellow friction Rings and yes i can Feel all of that in the wheel.
My FFB spikes are Sharper than Haidens FFB Lines i like My FFB Crisp.
Aslo i dont want this to become a Edison V Telsa FFB war... Its Simply a Comparrison of Two different FFB that can be created using Pcars FFB system to help people understand that you are Not Locked into 1 type of FFB feel.... That you can Create the Feel thats Best for you.
I say his Line Looks Lazy according to the Track as i know it... He says My line is over saturated... Its just 2 different taste when it comes to FFB.... You can Choose the Feel you like best or Create a Feel in the Middle:yes:
I test on Watkins because its a track with Good Bump Feel and also has a Good Mix of fast and Slow turns.
The Line goes Flat when it can but only on short sections its its a Bumpy track that gives Good Feel.
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 11:53
Its not really less lively just not as loud might be a better term. Youll still feel everything but jumping from yours to haidens is going to feel all wrong at first. So that's going to be a tough comparison unless you give it a couple days to adjust to the different feel. If you want a heavier wheel just up the ffb on his settings . I'm not being critical here either but I had the same discussion about wheel weight and running heavy wheels. My question was are you running the wheel that heavy because you need to slow your hands down? Basically the weight is covering up the fact youre yanking the wheel on entry. I was doing the same thing without realizing I was doing it. Pulling the wheel instead of pushing it like I should be. Like I said not being critical you can run some fast laps but maybe you can be even faster. Just something to think about.
For Me the wheel is Not Heavy...I Have Good Arm Strength... I Need some Fight to the wheel or im constantly over Steering... I always say FFB strength is Very dependent on upper Body Strength.
I'm 98kg with 15 % body fat and plenty of upperbody strength and 6 ft .
FFB is about being able to feel subtle feeling of what the car is doing , not trying to lift the car obove you head , lol
My FFB Graph the subtle Forces Never use the Graph Full Box Volume Not even under weight transfer only the Stronger Forces Curbs, Big Bumps etc will use the Full Box... I like My FFB Sharp and Crisp.
For Me i like a Tad bit of wheel weight other than that i constantly Over steer.
Your FFB Looks Ok but Looks Less Lively than i like...I like My FFB Tips Sharp so the FFB Feels Crisp...I want to Feel all the Tire Chatter, Sliding and Grip Loss... I can Make My Line like that simply by reducing TF but the wheel Feels Lazy then.
Post your settings i will try them and see how it feels.
Its not really less lively just not as loud might be a better term. Youll still feel everything but jumping from yours to haidens is going to feel all wrong at first. So that's going to be a tough comparison unless you give it a couple days to adjust to the different feel. If you want a heavier wheel just up the ffb on his settings . I'm not being critical here either but I had the same discussion about wheel weight and running heavy wheels. My question was are you running the wheel that heavy because you need to slow your hands down? Basically the weight is covering up the fact youre yanking the wheel on entry. I was doing the same thing without realizing I was doing it. Pulling the wheel instead of pushing it like I should be. Like I said not being critical you can run some fast laps but maybe you can be even faster. Just something to think about.
IMO, this is a common misinterpretation of the waveforms on the graph. Like Morpwr said, the wheel is just as lively as yours. Anytime there's a variance in the waveform, feedback is being communicated. The waveform doesn't have to be skittering all over the place rapidly. It's not a seismograph. :) Subtle forces are weaker forces, and slip feel will show as dips in the signal (the wheel getting lighter). Grimey, IMO, your waveform is too high for subtle feel. Subtle sensations are weaker forces. How can a wheel communicate these when the signal is in the upper 85-90%? It can't. It needs to dip below that, because the subtle feel is weaker than that.
My settings are in my signature. But like Morpwr said, you won't like them to start. I didn't either, when I started dialing out the saturation. I had to lower it little by little, and start the day's racing with the new settings. Even then, they felt strange. It wasn't until I went back to my old settings after a few days, that I was suddenly able to tell that, yes, the oversaturated settings had more road texture, but they were missing a lot of subtle feel compared to the new settings.
I think it would be interesting to see your FFB line on a smoother track. Because then there would be less chatter in the signal during corners, and you could see whether or not you're getting a slip feel. Remember, slip is lightening of the wheel, so you should see dips in force, not a rise in force. You said you like to see sharp tips in your waveform, so the FFB feels crisps. But tire slips don't show as sharp spikes. Bumps and curbs create sharp spikes, because they're impact forces. Tire slip is a smoother ripple, because they're transition forces. When I look at your graph, I don't see any transition flow in the signal when you're cornering. It just spikes and stays high, too high/strong for any subtle forces. Again, subtle forces are weaker. I don't see how you can be feeling them when your signal strength is in that high range. IMO, that's not where they are transmitted, and your signal doesn't flow into the low to mid range long enough for there to be any good subtle feel. I've tried your settings, and I didn't feel the same dynamic range I feel with mine. Yes, they're stronger, but I didn't feel the same range.
I'm not saying you're settings are wrong. If they're working for you and you're happy with them, fine. This isn't a sales pitch. I'm just commenting on the differences I'm seeing in the two videos. And I think this is good, because it provides a visual reference for people who are still trying to sort their settings out. This thread is full of good dialogue, but it's not always easy to provide visual examples. And I think they help define some of the things discussed in the thread. :)
For Me the wheel is Not Heavy...I Have Good Arm Strength... I Need some Fight to the wheel or im constantly over Steering... I always say FFB strength is Very dependent on upper Body Strength.
I'm 98kg with 15 % body fat and plenty of upperbody strength and 6 ft .
FFB is about being able to feel subtle feeling of what the car is doing , not trying to lift the car obove you head , lol
Exactly. I'm 5' 7", 185 lbs, workout all the time, and bench well over 200. It's got nothing to do with upper body strength. Look at most professional drivers. They're small guys with thin arms. You just have to train yourself to be smoother on turn-in. It's the same with all inputs.
Lethal 556
04-05-2016, 12:35
I've been playing racing games for years and project cars was the game that pushed me to pull the trigger and invest in a Thrustmaster T300 and since getting the wheel for months I have just plugged the wheel up and played not putting much attention into FFB. I am just now venturing out and trying to find my niche you could say in the world of FFB and tailer the wheel feel and FFB to my liking. In this thread at times may appear to be a pissing match between Haiden and GrimeyDog on FFB setting and interpretation. I for one have not taken it that way, I have found this (battle of FFB) between the 2 to be great for someone such as myself because what each of them have to offer is 2 different sides of the spectrum and has helped me decide what I am looking for in FFB. I can see the amount of knowledge and time Haiden and GrimeyDog have in this subject and both have helped me TREMENDOUSLY in both understanding FFB and to help identify what I'm looking for since I am new to the racing wheel scene. Thanks to you both!
For Me the wheel is Not Heavy...I Have Good Arm Strength... I Need some Fight to the wheel or im constantly over Steering... I always say FFB strength is Very dependent on upper Body Strength.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. If we where talking kids to adults yes then id agree. But youre not supposed to fight the car. jmo
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 13:31
IMO, this is a common misinterpretation of the waveforms on the graph. Like Morpwr said, the wheel is just as lively as yours. Anytime there's a variance in the waveform, feedback is being communicated. The waveform doesn't have to be skittering all over the place rapidly. It's not a seismograph. :) Subtle forces are weaker forces, and slip feel will show as dips in the signal (the wheel getting lighter). Grimey, IMO, your waveform is too high for subtle feel. Subtle sensations are weaker forces. How can a wheel communicate these when the signal is in the upper 85-90%? It can't. It needs to dip below that, because the subtle feel is weaker than that.
My settings are in my signature. But like Morpwr said, you won't like them to start. I didn't either, when I started dialing out the saturation. I had to lower it little by little, and start the day's racing with the new settings. Even then, they felt strange. It wasn't until I went back to my old settings after a few days, that I was suddenly able to tell that, yes, the oversaturated settings had more road texture, but they were missing a lot of subtle feel compared to the new settings.
I think it would be interesting to see your FFB line on a smoother track. Because then there would be less chatter in the signal during corners, and you could see whether or not you're getting a slip feel. Remember, slip is lightening of the wheel, so you should see dips in force, not a rise in force. You said you like to see sharp tips in your waveform, so the FFB feels crisps. But tire slips don't show as sharp spikes. Bumps and curbs create sharp spikes, because they're impact forces. Tire slip is a smoother ripple, because they're transition forces. When I look at your graph, I don't see any transition flow in the signal when you're cornering. It just spikes and stays high, too high/strong for any subtle forces. Again, subtle forces are weaker. I don't see how you can be feeling them when your signal strength is in that high range. IMO, that's not where they are transmitted, and your signal doesn't flow into the low to mid range long enough for there to be any good subtle feel. I've tried your settings, and I didn't feel the same dynamic range I feel with mine. Yes, they're stronger, but I didn't feel the same range.
I'm not saying you're settings are wrong. If they're working for you and you're happy with them, fine. This isn't a sales pitch. I'm just commenting on the differences I'm seeing in the two videos. And I think this is good, because it provides a visual reference for people who are still trying to sort their settings out. This thread is full of good dialogue, but it's not always easy to provide visual examples. And I think they help define some of the things discussed in the thread. :)
I will Post a Video on a Medium* Laguna Seca* and a Smoother Track * Spa*... Funny I was just thinking the same thing.... When i Had RAC set at 92 i can agree i did Not Get Great feel on these Tracks... But Now RAC 75 the Feel is Great!!! I Never Really Liked Spa except in F1 Games so i dont know what a Good time on that track in Gt3 is but with the RAC 75 i took 1 Full sec off My time 2:20.ŨŨŨ with a stock suspension Ruf... I can easily get it lower if i Learn the Track more but its just Not a track i favor... Now Laguna Seca which i like i can get a 1:23.ŨŨŨ Easy with Most tweeks but i have gotten into the 1:22.ŨŨŨ With the Stock Gt3 Ruf with RAC 75.
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 13:33
https://youtu.be/nnJzNXWqIzs
When your watching the Graph also Take Note of the Yellow Friction Rings thats around the Tire Temps... You can also Note that you will Hear the Tires Scrubbing when the FFB line is Most active...
The FFB Line actially Moves in proportion to the Yellow friction Rings and yes i can Feel all of that in the wheel.
My FFB spikes are Sharper than Haidens FFB Lines i like My FFB Crisp.
Aslo i dont want this to become a Edison V Telsa FFB war... Its Simply a Comparrison of Two different FFB that can be created using Pcars FFB system to help people understand that you are Not Locked into 1 type of FFB feel.... That you can Create the Feel thats Best for you.
I say his Line Looks Lazy according to the Track as i know it... He says My line is over saturated... Its just 2 different taste when it comes to FFB.... You can Choose the Feel you like best or Create a Feel in the Middle:yes:
I test on Watkins because its a track with Good Bump Feel and also has a Good Mix of fast and Slow turns.
The Line goes Flat when it can but only on short sections its its a Bumpy track that gives Good Feel.
I've been playing racing games for years and project cars was the game that pushed me to pull the trigger and invest in a Thrustmaster T300 and since getting the wheel for months I have just plugged the wheel up and played not putting much attention into FFB. I am just now venturing out and trying to find my niche you could say in the world of FFB and tailer the wheel feel and FFB to my liking. In this thread at times may appear to be a pissing match between Haiden and GrimeyDog on FFB setting and interpretation. I for one have not taken it that way, I have found this (battle of FFB) between the 2 to be great for someone such as myself because what each of them have to offer is 2 different sides of the spectrum and has helped me decide what I am looking for in FFB. I can see the amount of knowledge and time Haiden and GrimeyDog have in this subject and both have helped me TREMENDOUSLY in both understanding FFB and to help identify what I'm looking for since I am new to the racing wheel scene. Thanks to you both!
great comment!
it's indeed a debate about two different approaches. none is wrong or false. both of them can be clearly analyzed and discussed based on common terms, wordings and definitions that are fully laid out and widely agreed on. Also providing a logical structure of conclusions that can be tested and replicated, despite likings ot dislikings. making things abstract helps to keep it objective...
i pointed out my findings about Grimeys approach in prevoius posts, so no need to repeat what i think about it. i just think we could all happily move on if it'd be allowed to call saturation saturation if it's saturation. if we throw that word out of dictionary just because of a misundertanding (saturation is neither bad nor good, it's just saturation), it'd be simply silly, and would not be in accordance with the general quality of the thread.
we are all here because the motto is, "lets talk FFB and share videos about it". that is what we do. i can't close my eyes when i see a setting and a telemetry FFB line that says "look at me that's how saturation looks like."
again it's not about judging a setting, it's commenting on a brainless signal that can modulate in a million different ways. all the posts become irrelevant, if we can't use the toolset that we created to analyze a simple signal. PCars FFB is not this much of a mistery than some would like to believe. you can adjust it by try and error and your feel. or you shorten the way by getting an idea about how the system and each stage works and come faster towards a feeling that you had in mind would like.
may be we give saturation a different name? what about "her great massiveness!"? :D
grimey, could we agree on leaving the word saturation in the book, and tag it with 'can be usefull or can be unwanted in technical signal chains'?
For Me the wheel is Not Heavy...I Have Good Arm Strength... I Need some Fight to the wheel or im constantly over Steering... I always say FFB strength is Very dependent on upper Body Strength.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. If we where talking kids to adults yes then id agree. But youre not supposed to fight the car. jmo
The video of that guy fighting the wheel on Nordschleife is apples to oranges. Three things need to be taken into consideration with that video. One, he's using an Accuforce direct drive wheel, which is capable of much producing much stronger FFB with a higher degree of fidelity. He can crank it, without losing dynamic range, because it's a DD wheel. Two, he's using Sim Commander, which overrides the game's FFB and gives you complete control over what you feel. If consoles had Sim Commander, you'd be able to crank the scales and still choose what forces come through. But we don't, so you have to balance between saturation and fidelity. And three, he isn't so much fighting the wheel as he compensating for wheel slip. It's the Nordschleife. The traction level is constantly fluctuating on that track.
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 13:49
great comment!
it's indeed a debate about two different approaches. none is wrong or false. both of them can be clearly analyzed and discussed based on common terms, wordings and definitions that are fully laid out and widely agreed on. Also providing a logical structure of conclusions that can proven and replicated, despite likings ot dislikings. making things abstract helps to keep it objective...
i pointed out my findings about Grimeys approach in prevoius posts, so no need to repeat what i think about it. i just think we could all happily move on if it'd be allowed to call saturation saturation if it's saturation. if we throw that word out of dictionary just because of a misundertanding (saturation is neither bad nor good, it's just saturation), it'd be simply silly, and would not be in accordance with the general quality of the thread.
we all here because the motto was and is, "lets talk FFB and share videos about it". thats what we do. i can't close my eyes when i see a setting and a telemtry hud FFF line that says "look at me, that's how saturation looks like." again it's not about judging a setting, it's commenting on a brainless signal that can modulate in a million different ways. all the post with all the knowledge collected and evaluated become useless if can't use the toolset that we created to analyze a simple signal. PCars FFB is not this much of a mistery than some would like to believe.
may be we give saturation a different name? what about "her great massiveness!"? :D
grimey, could we agree on leaving the word saturation in the book, and tag it with 'can be usefull or can be unwanted in technical signal chains'?
I have No Gripe about Over Saturation/under saturation... Im Fine with My Settings... and Many like them as is:yes: there are some that prefer lighter settings thats fine... Take Note that even though i use different Tweek Methods if you Track back through this Entire post i have Not Discredited any 1's Tweek work:yes: My only Gripes or Dissagreements were about GM FFB being set to 100 on Console but that is and has long since been over:yes: I did Not Go after Haiden or any 1 else about what i thought about their settings... (Even thogh i dont understand settings being used over 100/1.00.... it doesnt make sense to me)... The Contrary is the Case My settings were being discussed because He feels they are over saturated... U dont demand any 1 use My settings but if you do and find them a bit strong then like any other settings tweek them to your liking:yes: Simple... There are some that said JS settings were too strong also its just a matter of taste in FFB... But what ever the case any and all Settings need to be tweeked to personal taste... I have No Gripe with any 1.
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 14:14
https://youtu.be/nnJzNXWqIzs
When your watching the Graph also Take Note of the Yellow Friction Rings thats around the Tire Temps... You can also Note that you will Hear the Tires Scrubbing when the FFB line is Most active...
The FFB Line actially Moves in proportion to the Yellow friction Rings and yes i can Feel all of that in the wheel.
My FFB spikes are Sharper than Haidens FFB Lines i like My FFB Crisp.
Aslo i dont want this to become a Edison V Telsa FFB war... Its Simply a Comparrison of Two different FFB that can be created using Pcars FFB system to help people understand that you are Not Locked into 1 type of FFB feel.... That you can Create the Feel thats Best for you.
I say his Line Looks Lazy according to the Track as i know it... He says My line is over saturated... Its just 2 different taste when it comes to FFB.... You can Choose the Feel you like best or Create a Feel in the Middle:yes:
I test on Watkins because its a track with Good Bump Feel and also has a Good Mix of fast and Slow turns.
The Line goes Flat when it can but only on short sections its its a Bumpy track that gives Good Feel.
I will Post a Video on a Medium* Laguna Seca* and a Smoother Track * Spa*... Funny I was just thinking the same thing.... When i Had RAC set at 92 i can agree i did Not Get Great feel on these Tracks... But Now RAC 75 the Feel is Great!!! I Never Really Liked Spa except in F1 Games so i dont know what a Good time on that track in Gt3 is but with the RAC 75 i took 1 Full sec off My time 2:20.ŨŨŨ with a stock suspension Ruf... I can easily get it lower if i Learn the Track more but its just Not a track i favor... Now Laguna Seca which i like i can get a 1:23.ŨŨŨ Easy with Most tweeks but i have gotten into the 1:22.ŨŨŨ With the Stock Gt3 Ruf with RAC 75.
what about leaving RAC at 0.75, but lowering in car masters (or TF) to 60 or 65 (instead of 100). Sure wheel gets a tad lighter... compensate with raising absolute FFB strenght (CSW style) slighthly until you have same subjective feel of same wheel weight as before. so this way you change the relative wheel weight a bit and you get a bit more differentiation, but the absolute strength of the torque of your wheel stays almost the same. your wheel will even be more vivid than it is already. it will very likely feel strange and familiar at the same time in the beginning... but it will still have a 'grimey signature style feeling'. give it a try for some rounds, if it feels still lame to you, raise RAC from 0.75 to 0.9. i guess youcan shave off 0.5 seconds after 6 hours. ...you may still not like the feel...:D fully accepted, i promise. just give it a try...! we all tried your settings too. (i don't want to be right, but even it's only for the good of the readers to get a better understanding how the system works it was worth a post)
great comment!
it's indeed a debate about two different approaches. none is wrong or false. both of them can be clearly analyzed and discussed based on common terms, wordings and definitions that are fully laid out and widely agreed on. Also providing a logical structure of conclusions that can be tested and replicated, despite likings ot dislikings. making things abstract helps to keep it objective...
i pointed out my findings about Grimeys approach in prevoius posts, so no need to repeat what i think about it. i just think we could all happily move on if it'd be allowed to call saturation saturation if it's saturation. if we throw that word out of dictionary just because of a misundertanding (saturation is neither bad nor good, it's just saturation), it'd be simply silly, and would not be in accordance with the general quality of the thread.
we are all here because the motto is, "lets talk FFB and share videos about it". that is what we do. i can't close my eyes when i see a setting and a telemetry FFB line that says "look at me that's how saturation looks like."
again it's not about judging a setting, it's commenting on a brainless signal that can modulate in a million different ways. all the posts become irrelevant, if we can't use the toolset that we created to analyze a simple signal. PCars FFB is not this much of a mistery than some would like to believe. you can adjust it by try and error and your feel. or you shorten the way by getting an idea about how the system and each stage works and come faster towards a feeling that you had in mind would like.
may be we give saturation a different name? what about "her great massiveness!"? :D
grimey, could we agree on leaving the word saturation in the book, and tag it with 'can be usefull or can be unwanted in technical signal chains'?
I was only trying to clarify/define the term. Looking at the two videos, the differences are obvious. So how can the same word be used to describe both? Perhaps over is not an appropriate prefix, as it implies an acceptable limit has been passed. There is no acceptable/preferred limit when it comes to saturation. The only definitive statement that can be made is that the level of saturation does affect the FFB signal. How you feel about it's affect comes down to personal tastes. I honestly don't care what settings anyone else uses. Why would I? I don't have to drive their rig... LOL I'm just sharing my experience, findings, and opinions in an ongoing group discussion.
Koza_Nostra
04-05-2016, 15:20
Hello again. Quick question guys.
I have used FCM to do a wheel test to get my Scoop and Deadzone values correct.
The suggested values by FCM for Scoop are:
Scoop Knee: 0.79
Scoop Reduction: 0.56
I've tested many different settings over time and have never seen such a high Scoop Reduction setting value.. Should I completely trust FCM or go with what most people have, with SR at around 0.30?
Could someone explain a bit more in plain English and racing terms, what exactly does Scoop Reduction do as in terms of the feel in the wheel?
Any suggestions, opinions are welcome :) Thanks
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 15:25
what about leaving RAC at 0.75, but lowering in car masters (or TF) to 60 or 65 (instead of 100). Sure wheel gets a tad lighter... compensate with raising absolute FFB strenght (CSW style) slighthly until you have same subjective feel of same wheel weight as before. so this way you change the relative wheel weight a bit and you get a bit more differentiation, but the absolute strength of the torque of your wheel stays almost the same. your wheel will even be more vivid than it is already. it will very likely feel strange and familiar at the same time in the beginning... but it will still have a 'grimey signature style feeling'. give it a try for some rounds, if it feels still lame to you, raise RAC from 0.75 to 0.9. i guess youcan shave off 0.5 seconds after 6 hours. ...you may still not like the feel...:D fully accepted, i promise. just give it a try...! we all tried your settings too. (i don't want to be right, but even it's only for the good of the readers to get a better understanding how the system works it was worth a post)
I have tested that also... What i found was Lowering the RAC from 92 to 75 keeps the Subtle FFB forces Graph line from using the Full Graph Box and Maintains (Great IMO) Better Subtle Road Feel...Only the Stronger Forces will use the Full Graph Box while and the FFB spike tip do Not Flat Line and get cut off... this provideds fuller Crisper FFB Feel... IMO when the FFB spike Tips get cut off you loose Dynamic Range... For Me raising RAC back to .90 is a No Go Based on How Pcars feels with High RAC after the last 2 updates.
As it states in My Tweek PDF that you can + or - the in Car Masters to the Level best fits your FFB taste... Maybe I will go back and amend it to also include that you can also Lower TF to help adjust wheel weight.
1 unified Tweek process for beginners??? JMT
Take Note i use No setting Higher than 100/1.00 and the Tweek Can be as Strong as you like it or you can Reduce the #'s to below 100/1.00 to make it as weak as you want it...I can actually Reduce My #'s to give the same FFB Graph Line and Feel as JS or Haidens tweek.. This is why i dont understand Tweeks that have settings 101/1.01+ ...to Me it serves to reason that if the settings were balanced properly that No setting Need be above 100/1.00
IMO its all about balancing the parts of the FFB system to work together as a whole Not over driving 1 part of the system and under driving the other parts. I suggest Tweeking from a 100/1.00 and reducing to adjust feel... Over Saturated or Not the tweek proves that the Power and Feel is there with a 100/1.00 settings Cap Now if the Tweek was under saturated/ Not enough power i could see the Need to have settings 101/1.01+
IMO tweeks with settings 101/1.01 are unbalanced some where and over compensating elsewhere
if you look at the Many different tweeks all the Tweek #'s are Very different... The first part of unifying the FFB tweeks would be to come up with a standard/Base tweek # profile.
Hello again. Quick question guys.
I have used FCM to do a wheel test to get my Scoop and Deadzone values correct.
The suggested values by FCM for Scoop are:
Scoop Knee: 0.79
Scoop Reduction: 0.56
I've tested many different settings over time and have never seen such a high Scoop Reduction setting value.. Should I completely trust FCM or go with what most people have, with SR at around 0.30?
Could someone explain a bit more in plain English and racing terms, what exactly does Scoop Reduction do as in terms of the feel in the wheel?
Any suggestions, opinions are welcome :) Thanks
It reduces the strength of forces communicated below the Knee. I've seen some people running high reduction. Try it. If you like it, great. If the low forces feel to light, then lower the reduction. IMO, Scoop K/R is the one of the first things you need to get sorted.
"Be experimental with RAG, RAB and RAC, you may like it: Set RAG to 1.3 or higher, RAB to 0.02 - 0.04 (instead of 0.98 what's mostly recommended), and RAC to 2.00 (to avoid any unwanted limiting) you may be stunned how lively and "free-ed" your wheel gets, while keeping the "sharpness" and "accentuation" that you wanted from the RAG in the first place, but without the "clanking" often coming along with RAG and long RA-Bleeding."
...glad to see how we can explore, test and progress together on territories that were uncharted before. ideas, assumptions, theories, share of practical experience, critical/witty attitude while being sharp about evidence and relevance, plus a healthy share of entertaining emotions. ... there is a reason why this thread became one of the most popular long living threads in this forum.
I tried a lower bleed with RAC=2.00 last night and got a lot of clipping. RA-G/B/C was 1.50/0.04/2.0. It started clipping when trail braking into corners, but not cornering alone.
However, I did like the feel of RAB=0.08, instead of the 0.10 I was using, and have made that permanent adjustment. I'll give it a few weeks to get used to it, and then try 0.06. But I'm keeping RAC set to 0.85 for now, because 2.0 was clipping. Maybe I'll try raising it slowly to see if I can feel any improvement in the dynamic range, before it starts clipping.
Koza_Nostra
04-05-2016, 15:49
Thanks Haiden. I actually tried your settings earlier today, quite like them, they are very similar to what I run anyway.
Also couple of days ago, I tried turning RAG/RAB/RAC off and quite liked the feeling. May have to give it another go and make up my mind to keep it or not :)
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 16:15
IHowever, I did like the feel of RAB=0.08, instead of the 0.10 I was using, and have made that permanent adjustment. I'll give it a few weeks to get used to it, and then try 0.06. But I'm keeping RAC set to 0.85 for now, because 2.0 was clipping. Maybe I'll try raising it slowly to see if I can feel any improvement in the dynamic range, before it starts clipping.
Haaaa... There Something we agree on:yes: Ive been using RAB 0.08 for a while lower RAB feels better than High RAB but IMO you will Need to readjust your scoop's settings because the Lower Bleed Off Gives a tighter wheel center.
85 RAC is Not Bad but puts more power in the wheel than i like... it also Raises/Starts the FFB Graph Line to 85% of the Graph Box as a default even before any FFB Effects are applied... Curb,Bumps, weight transfer power level will start at 85.
thats how it works with My tweek... i use RAC to set the FFB piwer Level.
Haaaa... There Something we agree on:yes: Ive been using RAB 0.08 for a while lower RAB feels better than High RAB but IMO you will Need to readjust your scoop's settings because the Lower Bleed Off Gives a tighter wheel center.
85 RAC is Not Bad but puts more power in the wheel than i like... it also Raises/Starts the FFB Graph Line to 85% of the Graph Box as a default even before any FFB Effects are applied... Curb,Bumps, weight transfer power level will start at 85.
thats how it works with My tweek... i use RAC to set the FFB piwer Level.
IDK... the waveform in that video I posted clearly shows the signal flowing below 85%. I think of RAC as a limiter/ceiling/cap, not a starting point.
Thanks Haiden. I actually tried your settings earlier today, quite like them, they are very similar to what I run anyway.
Also couple of days ago, I tried turning RAG/RAB/RAC off and quite liked the feeling. May have to give it another go and make up my mind to keep it or not :)
No problem. Glad they helped. I tried disabling the RA scales. It didn't feel bad, at all. But it definitely wasn't going to work with my current globals. I would have had to rebalance everything to compensate, and I just wasn't willing to go through all that testing again. :nightmare: :)
Jezza819
04-05-2016, 17:43
Exactly. I'm 5' 7", 185 lbs, workout all the time, and bench well over 200. It's got nothing to do with upper body strength. Look at most professional drivers. They're small guys with thin arms. You just have to train yourself to be smoother on turn-in. It's the same with all inputs.
Yeah I'm living proof that upper body strength has nothing to do with FFB. I'm 6'0", 145lbs, never ever work out, might could bench 20 pounds, arms like spaghetti noodles, and I manage just fine. :D
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 17:46
Ok... Now that things Have settled a bit... Here Goe's the Milion Dollar Question???
With all that we Know about TF and in Car Masters for those who Know the Tweeking Process that tried My FFB Tweek and felt it was Saturated/Too Strong Etc...Why Not just Turn TF Down and or Adjust the in Car Masters to your personal Taste as you would or has been done with Many other tweeks:confused: this is the Paradox that perplexes Me and makes Me Scratch My Head and Wonder what all the Fuss is/was Really about:confused::confused::confused:
Not trying to open a can of worms but this Really Confounds Me:p
I just had to post to State/ask this because this has Me Baffled:confused:
Edit: I just burst out Laughing because when i did Not agree with JS about GM FFB 100 and Low in Car Masters he said well start your own thread then:mad: So thats what i did:yes: LOL... Just getting off work Random thoughts:rolleyes:
Just Random thoughts
Jezza819
04-05-2016, 18:03
what about leaving RAC at 0.75, but lowering in car masters (or TF) to 60 or 65 (instead of 100).
I think that's what I'm doing. RAC at 0.75 but I've got TF lowered to 60.
Ok... Now that things Have settled a bit... Here Goe's the Milion Dollar Question???
With all that we Know about TF and in Car Masters for those who Know the Tweeking Process that tried My FFB Tweek and felt it was Saturated/Too Strong Etc...Why Not just Turn TF Down and or Adjust the in Car Masters to your personal Taste as you would or has been done with Many other tweeks:confused: this is the Paradox that perplexes Me and makes Me Scratch My Head and Wonder what all the Fuss is/was Really about:confused::confused::confused:
Not trying to open a can of worms but this Really Confounds Me:p
I just had to post to State/ask this because this has Me Baffled:confused:
Edit: I just burst out Laughing because when i did Not agree with JS about GM FFB 100 and Low in Car Masters he said well start your own thread then:mad: So thats what i did:yes: LOL... Just getting off work Random thoughts:rolleyes:
Just Random thoughts
I did try that. But you can only lower/raise them so much before you reach the point diminishing returns.
Ok... Now that things Have settled a bit... Here Goe's the Milion Dollar Question???
With all that we Know about TF and in Car Masters for those who Know the Tweeking Process that tried My FFB Tweek and felt it was Saturated/Too Strong Etc...Why Not just Turn TF Down and or Adjust the in Car Masters to your personal Taste as you would or has been done with Many other tweeks:confused: this is the Paradox that perplexes Me and makes Me Scratch My Head and Wonder what all the Fuss is/was Really about:confused::confused::confused:
Not trying to open a can of worms but this Really Confounds Me:p
I just had to post to State/ask this because this has Me Baffled:confused:
Edit: I just burst out Laughing because when i did Not agree with JS about GM FFB 100 and Low in Car Masters he said well start your own thread then:mad: So thats what i did:yes: LOL... Just getting off work Random thoughts:rolleyes:
Just Random thoughts
I liked tennenbaums thoughts on it. I have to agree with Haiden on the tf though it seemed to me you get to a point and you start loosing too much grip feel.
GrimeyDog
04-05-2016, 19:50
I liked tennenbaums thoughts on it. I have to agree with Haiden on the tf though it seemed to me you get to a point and you start loosing too much grip feel.
I did try that. But you can only lower/raise them so much before you reach the point diminishing returns.
Thanks for the answers... I will Take this into Consideration when i Re-Tweek:yes: .... This clears the Air a bit and quells the thought that the Comments stemmed from a Hostile or other intent point of View:yes:
Ok... Now that things Have settled a bit... Here Goe's the Milion Dollar Question???
With all that we Know about TF and in Car Masters for those who Know the Tweeking Process that tried My FFB Tweek and felt it was Saturated/Too Strong Etc...Why Not just Turn TF Down and or Adjust the in Car Masters to your personal Taste as you would or has been done with Many other tweeks:confused: this is the Paradox that perplexes Me and makes Me Scratch My Head and Wonder what all the Fuss is/was Really about:confused::confused::confused:
Not trying to open a can of worms but this Really Confounds Me:p
I just had to post to State/ask this because this has Me Baffled:confused:
Edit: I just burst out Laughing because when i did Not agree with JS about GM FFB 100 and Low in Car Masters he said well start your own thread then:mad: So thats what i did:yes: LOL... Just getting off work Random thoughts:rolleyes:
Just Random thoughts
It's pretty simple.
If you only use FxyzMz, Tf and Master Scale are swappable. With a any balance of both, lowering MS by 50% and upping TF by 50% should give you the same FFB.
If you mix FxyzMz and SoP, TF will lower/boost Both Scales while Master Scale will only mess with FxyzMz.
What that your question?
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 20:51
I was only trying to clarify/define the term. Looking at the two videos, the differences are obvious. So how can the same word be used to describe both? Perhaps over is not an appropriate prefix, as it implies an acceptable limit has been passed. There is no acceptable/preferred limit when it comes to saturation. The only definitive statement that can be made is that the level of saturation does affect the FFB signal. How you feel about it's affect comes down to personal tastes. I honestly don't care what settings anyone else uses. Why would I? I don't have to drive their rig... LOL I'm just sharing my experience, findings, and opinions in an ongoing group discussion.
we are on the same page here. sorry if my post was too vague.
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 20:57
I tried a lower bleed with RAC=2.00 last night and got a lot of clipping. RA-G/B/C was 1.50/0.04/2.0. It started clipping when trail braking into corners, but not cornering alone.
However, I did like the feel of RAB=0.08, instead of the 0.10 I was using, and have made that permanent adjustment. I'll give it a few weeks to get used to it, and then try 0.06. But I'm keeping RAC set to 0.85 for now, because 2.0 was clipping. Maybe I'll try raising it slowly to see if I can feel any improvement in the dynamic range, before it starts clipping.
assuming you meant not bleed but clamp, setting RAC to 2.00 means you don't have any soft limiting any more of forces in the range < 2.00. So dialing in RAC with 2.00 only makes sense when you can be sure all your tire forces are all nor clipping, thus =< 1.00., otherwise clipping occurs.( i know you know ;-.)
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 21:08
Hello again. Quick question guys.
I have used FCM to do a wheel test to get my Scoop and Deadzone values correct.
The suggested values by FCM for Scoop are:
Scoop Knee: 0.79
Scoop Reduction: 0.56
I've tested many different settings over time and have never seen such a high Scoop Reduction setting value.. Should I completely trust FCM or go with what most people have, with SR at around 0.30?
Could someone explain a bit more in plain English and racing terms, what exactly does Scoop Reduction do as in terms of the feel in the wheel?
Any suggestions, opinions are welcome :) Thanks
with the wheel you have Scoop Reduction 0.56 seems indeed high to me. check out poirc's opening post (OP) in his thread. i think it's a great comprehensive compendium.
with the wheel you have Scoop Reduction 0.56 seems indeed high to me. check out poirc's opening post (OP) in his thread. i think it's a great comprehensive compendium.
Those numbers comes from FCM 1.2, witch calculate Scoops differently than FCM1.1 or the sheet. More or less, it gives a SR twice as high as the first version. I'm running the new numbers, it like them.
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 21:37
It's pretty simple.
If you only use FxyzMz, Tf and Master Scale are swappable. With a any balance of both, lowering MS by 50% and upping TF by 50% should give you the same FFB.
If you mix FxyzMz and SoP, TF will lower/boost Both Scales while Master Scale will only mess with FxyzMz.
What that your question?
yep!! can we all finally agree on that?! It'd be a great step forward to make this thread a comprehensive source of proven knowledge about pCars FFB system. No newcomer to this forum will ever be capable to make his own mind up if he is kept in the blind about the most simple math here.
assuming you meant not bleed but clamp, setting RAC to 2.00 means you don't have any soft limiting any more of forces in the range < 2.00. So dialing in RAC with 2.00 only makes sense when you can be sure all your tire forces are all nor clipping, thus =< 1.00., otherwise clipping occurs.( i know you know ;-.)
Yeah... I'm not going to go through all that testing again for something I may not even like. I've spent too much time to get my hardware dialed in. I like my current FFB settings, and don't feel like stepping back into the rabbit hole. :)
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 21:42
Those numbers comes from FCM 1.2, witch calculate Scoops differently than FCM1.1 or the sheet. More or less, it gives a SR twice as high as the first version. I'm running the new numbers, it like them.
skoader is always good for the unexpected! ;). i'd never ever doubt what he comes up with. (no kidding,) it's my turn now to check out FCM 1.2...
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 21:44
Yeah... I'm not going to go through all that testing again for something I may not even like. I've spent too much time to get my hardware dialed in. I like my current FFB settings, and don't feel like stepping back into the rabbit hole. :)
i know... i told myself today, let it go, it doesn't matter...
skoader is always good for the unexpected! ;). i'd never ever doubt what he comes up with. (no kidding,) it's my turn now to check out FCM 1.2...
That seems strange to me sr being that high. I know you have some room to play with that to a point but twice as high? Any idea for the reasoning behind that?
tennenbaum
04-05-2016, 22:15
That seems strange to me sr being that high. I know you have some room to play with that to a point but twice as high? Any idea for the reasoning behind that?
he added the soft clipper SCHI/SCFO parameter with FCM 1.2 ...a tricky and ambitious thing... see: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1240764&viewfull=1#post1240764
the x2 factor might have to do with what he referred to in his post. but i'm on thin ice here. skoader knows much more about such specifics than i do.
Lethal 556
05-05-2016, 00:02
I've been getting familiar with all the abbreviation's on here for each of the settings I.e. RAC, MS so on and so forth but I need someone to tell me what FCM is please
I've been getting familiar with all the abbreviation's on here for each of the settings I.e. RAC, MS so on and so forth but I need someone to tell me what FCM is please
It stands for force curve modifier you can use it after you check your wheel to see what the adjustments actually do to the force curve.
i know... i told myself today, let it go, it doesn't matter...
Oh you know you cant
I've been getting familiar with all the abbreviation's on here for each of the settings I.e. RAC, MS so on and so forth but I need someone to tell me what FCM is please
You can have a look in my signature, in the baseline thread.
We talked about having some common terms, well, here's my shot at it:
Torque Delta: A change of torque happening over time. It's either the FFB signal moving up or down. When the line is above or below 0, but is staying mostly flat, this is static torque.
FFB Deadzone:Part of the signal that is too low to make the wheel move. Usualy happend around TDC, but can be everywhere. It can also happend if the signal is too fast for the wheel to follow. You can see it in the telemtry but the wheel doesn't actually move.
Linear signal:Part of the signal that gets output as is, 1:1. It's strong enough to move the wheel, but low enough so it's not compressed.
Compressed signal:Part of the signal that gets compressed by RAC or Soft Clipping. The more you compress the signal, the smaller the torque delta will be.
Saturated signal: This can happend anywhere in the telemetry. Could happend in low forces with too much Scoop Reduction. Could happend near max torque when TF is too high against RAC or Soft Clipping.
Clipped signal:Well, easy enough, this signal goes above 1 so the wheel just output maximum torque.
You obviously don't want the first and last one. Well, it's not that easy. Having a small deadzone is not Too bad, you don't really miss much. It gives you space for other forces. Having just a tad of clipping isn't too bad also. If it only cuts top of spikes. Done deal. As for the slope of the signal, it's up to you, as long as don't miss out on the information you want to feel.
The FFB can be linear, there's no compression going on. It give a lightweigh wheel, on most hardware, since their max torque output is not really strong. It could be stronger on a Direct Drive wheel.
As you move TF(For simplicity sake) up you start to need to compress the end of the torque slope to prevent the signal from being clipped. At that point, the beginning of the slope is linear, and the end is compressed.
At some point, the signal may not clip, but it gets saturated. From my point of view, a saturated signal is one where the torque deltas are too hard to discern.
Finaly, if there's too much TF against RAC or Soft Clipping, the signal gets clipped too often.
If i go back to FFB deadzone, this is where smoothing(WPS or FxyzMz smoothing) can help. Even if you can read that it's the devil, it can actually help to modulate the signal when the wheel can't keep up(You can see but can't feel the torque delta) with the FFB signal. With that said, it's better to use the least amount possible.
All those part of the FFB signal are there, to various extent, based on the hardware you're using. It's a matter of understanding how the hardware can translate the FFB signal meaningfully.
Cheers!
Either poirqcs new game sucks or he misses us:p
Either poirqcs new game sucks or he misses us:p
Well, old habits are hard to break, having a second screen is handy, there's break between games.
But can i lie, i enjoy reading everyone's post! :D
Koza_Nostra
05-05-2016, 08:07
with the wheel you have Scoop Reduction 0.56 seems indeed high to me. check out poirc's opening post (OP) in his thread. i think it's a great comprehensive compendium.
Yeah that's what I thought it's quite high when compared to other people's settings. However, SR 0.56 doesn't feel bad, it makes the FFB quite smooth and not as strong, so at the moment I lowered it to 0.48, but I think I will lower it a bit more.
Guys, is there a list anywhere of tracks which are laser scanned?
Guys, is there a list anywhere of tracks which are laser scanned?
Cadwell, snetterton, Oulton and Brands Hatch
Koza_Nostra
05-05-2016, 09:05
Cadwell, snetterton, Oulton and Brands Hatch
Thanks bud
tennenbaum
05-05-2016, 09:26
You can have a look in my signature, in the baseline thread.
We talked about having some common terms, well, here's my shot at it:
Torque Delta: A change of torque happening over time. It's either the FFB signal moving up or down. When the line is above or below 0, but is staying mostly flat, this is static torque.
FFB Deadzone:Part of the signal that is too low to make the wheel move. Usualy happend around TDC, but can be everywhere. It can also happend if the signal is too fast for the wheel to follow. You can see it in the telemtry but the wheel doesn't actually move.
Linear signal:Part of the signal that gets output as is, 1:1. It's strong enough to move the wheel, but low enough so it's not compressed.
Compressed signal:Part of the signal that gets compressed by RAC or Soft Clipping. The more you compress the signal, the smaller the torque delta will be.
Saturated signal: This can happend anywhere in the telemetry. Could happend in low forces with too much Scoop Reduction. Could happend near max torque when TF is too high against RAC or Soft Clipping.
Clipped signal:Well, easy enough, this signal goes above 1 so the wheel just output maximum torque.
You obviously don't want the first and last one. Well, it's not that easy. Having a small deadzone is not Too bad, you don't really miss much. It gives you space for other forces. Having just a tad of clipping isn't too bad also. If it only cuts top of spikes. Done deal. As for the slope of the signal, it's up to you, as long as don't miss out on the information you want to feel.
The FFB can be linear, there's no compression going on. It give a lightweigh wheel, on most hardware, since their max torque output is not really strong. It could be stronger on a Direct Drive wheel.
As you move TF(For simplicity sake) up you start to need to compress the end of the torque slope to prevent the signal from being clipped. At that point, the beginning of the slope is linear, and the end is compressed.
At some point, the signal may not clip, but it gets saturated. From my point of view, a saturated signal is one where the torque deltas are too hard to discern.
Finaly, if there's too much TF against RAC or Soft Clipping, the signal gets clipped too often.
If i go back to FFB deadzone, this is where smoothing(WPS or FxyzMz smoothing) can help. Even if you can read that it's the devil, it can actually help to modulate the signal when the wheel can't keep up(You can see but can't feel the torque delta) with the FFB signal. With that said, it's better to use the least amount possible.
All those part of the FFB signal are there, to various extent, based on the hardware you're using. It's a matter of understanding how the hardware can translate the FFB signal meaningfully.
Cheers!
a really nice one!
Yeah that's what I thought it's quite high when compared to other people's settings. However, SR 0.56 doesn't feel bad, it makes the FFB quite smooth and not as strong, so at the moment I lowered it to 0.48, but I think I will lower it a bit more.
Guys, is there a list anywhere of tracks which are laser scanned?
You could lower SR until you have problems feeling understeering.
This is the reason i'm running with a higher SR than before. Lot's of times, understeering feeling was happening when the signal was compressed. I have G27, witch by itself, have a flat output in the upper part of it's output slope. With those 2 together, it was pretty hard to feel understeering. FCM 1.2 numbers worked well in that regards. I couldn't really lower SR. As i did, turn in and grip loads where stronger, but i had trouble feeling understeering.
Koza_Nostra
05-05-2016, 12:49
You could lower SR until you have problems feeling understeering.
This is the reason i'm running with a higher SR than before. Lot's of times, understeering feeling was happening when the signal was compressed. I have G27, witch by itself, have a flat output in the upper part of it's output slope. With those 2 together, it was pretty hard to feel understeering. FCM 1.2 numbers worked well in that regards. I couldn't really lower SR. As i did, turn in and grip loads where stronger, but i had trouble feeling understeering.
Yeah I see what you mean. I will do more testing at some point this week with both higher and lower SR. Thing is, I have never done FCM test before, just used to put SK at 0.70ish and SR at 0.26ish, always liked it. But then I've done FCM test, and the numbers that came back were a higher than usual. I would say the steering feels more linear and smooth, but not sure if that's what I will settle with. As I said, I will do more testing this week to decide lower or higher SR.
Thanks anyway
GrimeyDog
05-05-2016, 13:18
I've never driven this car and don't frequent this track, so excuse the driving. But you can clearly see the difference in telemetry. Your signal is constantly either near the top or the bottom. It only operates in the mid to low range when you're on a straight. But as soon as you turn, it shoots into the high ranges. The wheel can't communicate everything simultaneously and subtle forces aren't 85-90% in strength. So if you're signal is constantly shooting between extremes ends, when do the subtle forces get communicated? IMO, that lack of low to mid range activity is oversaturation. That's fine if that's your preference. No right or wrong. But for the sake of clear communication, I think this is pretty good example. At least IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Py_l4k6WQ
Haiden I Tried your settings last Night and i will simply say they are Not for Me:no:... IMO they Makes the Cars Feel Floaty and Boat Like... I can See why you had a problem getting this car around the Track... Its Not the Best Handling Car and with your settings it feels even Floatier Like Im Driving a Cruise Ship.
I also Tested them in the Gt3 Ruf and For Me I lost the sensation of Speed and agility with the Boat like Feel...the ability to Push the Car Hard in corners was just gone for Me as i could Not feel the Tires at the Edge of Grip... Best i could Manage on Watkins short was a 108.5ŨŨ it kinda felt like i was Driving a Toyota Prius instead of a Race Car... Race Cars Have Stiff Suspensions this Fact should be Felt in the Steering wheel the Susoensions are Not Soft and do Not Provide a Luxury Car Ride.
Driving the Lower Class Cars with softer suspensions the Feel of Speed due to Lack of Road & Tire Feel was even Less.
I will Stick with My Settings... I find them Better suited for Driving any Car Class and Each car Class and every Car still Remains with its own Driving Characteristics and Feel. This is Just My assessment of your settings...For Me Chasing the Unicorn FFB is over until SMS Changes something that Makes a Re-Tweek necessary. im Gkad you settings work for you but for Me your settings still Need work. Cheers:yes:
Koza_Nostra
05-05-2016, 13:22
Also, what is the best way to find a value for 'Deadzone Removal Falloff'?
For 'Deadzone Removal Range' FCM has given me 0.08.
At the moment I have 'Deadzone Removal Falloff' at 0.03, but not sure if this is the right value.
Also, what is the best way to find a value for 'Deadzone Removal Falloff'?
For 'Deadzone Removal Range' FCM has given me 0.08.
At the moment I have 'Deadzone Removal Falloff' at 0.03, but not sure if this is the right value.
This .
Find the answer to this .
For me trial and error , but i think I'm stuck with error , lol
Koza_Nostra
05-05-2016, 13:52
This .
Find the answer to this .
For me trial and error , but i think I'm stuck with error , lol
Haha, I feel you on this one :D
Haiden I Tried your settings last Night and i will simply say they are Not for Me:no:... IMO they Makes the Cars Feel Floaty and Boat Like... I can See why you had a problem getting this car around the Track... Its Not the Best Handling Car and with your settings it feels even Floatier Like Im Driving a Cruise Ship.
I also Tested them in the Gt3 Ruf and For Me I lost the sensation of Speed and agility with the Boat like Feel...the ability to Push the Car Hard in corners was just gone for Me as i could Not feel the Tires at the Edge of Grip... Best i could Manage on Watkins short was a 108.5ŨŨ it kinda felt like i was Driving a Toyota Prius instead of a Race Car... Race Cars Have Stiff Suspensions this Fact should be Felt in the Steering wheel the Susoensions are Not Soft and do Not Provide a Luxury Car Ride.
Driving the Lower Class Cars with softer suspensions the Feel of Speed due to Lack of Road & Tire Feel was even Less.
I will Stick with My Settings... I find them Better suited for Driving any Car Class and Each car Class and every Car still Remains with its own Driving Characteristics and Feel. This is Just My assessment of your settings...For Me Chasing the Unicorn FFB is over until SMS Changes something that Makes a Re-Tweek necessary. im Gkad you settings work for you but for Me your settings still Need work. Cheers:yes:
As I said in my post, I've never driven that car before. That video was only my 4th or 5th lap. I also don't drive Watkins very often. That's why I was slow. In our league races, you've seemed to have had a much harder time keeping it on the island than I have. :) The only time I've crashed out is when someone else crashed into me. Other than that, I rarely run wide or spin out. From what I've seen, that hasn't been the case for you. That's just a comparative observation. I'm not being critical or hostile.
IMO, the floatiness you're feeling is understeer. I don't think you feel it with your settings, at least not well. I know I didn't when I tried yours. That's why you push through it in your video. Your tires are obviously past the grip limit and sliding wide, but you just keeping turning in. The floatiness you mentioned is the lightening of the wheel due to understeer. But with heavily saturated settings, you just feel resistance, no grip loss, and therefore keep pushing. As I've mentioned in other posts, this can result in faster hot lap times. But in a longer race, you will suffer, because you can't manage the tires as well. Looking at the two videos, you can see you're scrubbing the tires way more than I am.
That car is floaty IRL, as well. And GT cars are softer than modern open wheelers. The Formula classes feel much tighter than the GT class with my settings, but I wouldn't consider the GT classes floaty, just less saturated, because I choose slip feel, fidelity, and dynamic range over extraneous road feel and texture.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you, just responding to your comments. I didn't think you'd like them, and definitely don't think you can see the difference with just a few hours. As many people have mentioned, it takes a while (often days), to really get over heavy saturation, if that's what you're used to. In fact, not too long ago, your comments above could have very well been my own, as I too was using, and comfortable with, a heavily saturated tune. It took reading a lot of comments, and me giving the changes almost a full week of comparative testing, before I finally realized what was going on in the dynamic.
Again, no worries. We all have our preferences. Glad you've found your unicorn and are out of the rabbit hole. I doubt SMS will be making any more changes to the models, so it looks like your tweaking days are over. :)
Also, what is the best way to find a value for 'Deadzone Removal Falloff'?
For 'Deadzone Removal Range' FCM has given me 0.08.
At the moment I have 'Deadzone Removal Falloff' at 0.03, but not sure if this is the right value.
This .
Find the answer to this .
For me trial and error , but i think I'm stuck with error , lol
Start by settling it to a 1/10 of DRR. From there you can move it up a bit, slowly. But well, auto-quote, from the baseline thread:
Deadzone Removals(TightenCenterRange/Falloff)
A common agreement is that every wheel FFB motor has a deadzone. A place where it can't generate smaller forces. Some wheel have lots of it. Others don't. This is the first thing this document will show you. Without any calculation you'll be able to see how much of a deadzone a wheel has. In pCars, this is dealt with Deadzone Removals. Depending on you're Soft Clipping usage, you may not need to use much Deadzone Removals, if at all.
DRR = Deadzone Removal Range : You'll set this value where the orange line(Normalized wheel output) starts. You may move that value a small bit(more or less 0.01)
DRF = Deadzone Removal Falloff : Start with something like a 1/10th of DRR and try other values so the red line(Final wheel output) follow the yellow line(input).
** About the DRF, the ui doesn't show 0,00X increment. They are taken into account tho. You can move the value with the arrows.
As soon as you use Deadzone Removal Range, you must use Deadzone Removal Falloff. If you don't have enough DRF, you'll get a squared wave osciallation when going in a straight line. An easy way to tune DRR/DRF is to set DRR like mentioned above, DRF would be a 1/10th of DRR. After this is done, increment DRF until you don't feel a notch in the ffb on turn ins. You shouldn't need much more DRF before this is dialed. It's also easy to see in the telemetry hud. The point here is that those 2 settings are tied together.
Just did some quick test about wheel oscillation and acceleration.
When someone picks a given DRR, this is what happends with various DRF:
No DRF: Square Wave oscillation around center. It can tattle.
Not enough DRF: The square wave will go away, but you can feel a notch when turning from left to right quickly.
Enough DRF: The centre of the wheel feels right, no notch when turning from left to right quickly. It can help a bit with some rattling. The wheel should self align by itself when going straight, up to some great speed.
Too much DRF: The wheel will start to accelerate, before you go really fast, just by moving it a tiny bit and letting it go.
Hope this helps.
You could lower SR until you have problems feeling understeering.
This is the reason i'm running with a higher SR than before. Lot's of times, understeering feeling was happening when the signal was compressed. I have G27, witch by itself, have a flat output in the upper part of it's output slope. With those 2 together, it was pretty hard to feel understeering. FCM 1.2 numbers worked well in that regards. I couldn't really lower SR. As i did, turn in and grip loads where stronger, but i had trouble feeling understeering.
I tried the higher SR this morning. I was running SR=0.28, and raised it to 0.48. I thought 0.56 (double) would be a little high, and it turns out, 0.48 was a good starting point for me. I definitely felt the change in slip forces--more noticeable/easy to detect. However, the wheel was a little too light for me. I bumped up the Master Scales to get some weight back. I was testing this in the FA at Silverstone. In that car, I usually have the Masters at 34, so I started raising them. At around 48, the wheel weight was decent, but the increase brought too much saturation to the FFB, and I had actually lost slip feel (even less than what I had before raising SR). So I decided to find the intersection between SR and the Master Scales. I lowered SR to 0.38. At that setting, the slip feeling was still better than SR=0.28, and I didn't have to increase the Master Scales as much to bring the weight back, so I was able to avoid the saturation issues. I didn't have time to find the ideal sweet spot, but SR=0.38 with the Master Scales at 40 felt pretty good. :)
I also noticed that, IMO, the slip feeling wasn't exactly missing with the lower SR settings, it just wasn't as easy to detect. I think this is worth noting, because it would account for some of the preference difference, regarding SR values. Some people may need more a pronounced slip feel to detect it. For me, a soft degree of wheel lightening, coupled with the slight squeal of the tires as they near the grip limit, is enough to realize I'm starting to slip. I think how much slip you need to feel has a little to do with both hardware fidelity and tactile sense, which varies from person to person, and can be affected by other things like wheel type (and the material it's made off), whether or not you drive with gloves and how thick they are, etc.
Anyway... thanks. I'm looking forward to dialing this in tonight. :)
GrimeyDog
05-05-2016, 14:54
As I said in my post, I've never driven that car before. That video was only my 4th or 5th lap. I also don't drive Watkins very often. That's why I was slow. In our league races, you've seemed to have had a much harder time keeping it on the island than I have. :) The only time I've crashed out is when someone else crashed into me. Other than that, I rarely run wide or spin out. From what I've seen, that hasn't been the case for you. That's just a comparative observation. I'm not being critical or hostile.
IMO, the floatiness you're feeling is understeer. I don't think you feel it with your settings, at least not well. That's why you push through it in your video. Your tires are obviously past the grip limit and sliding wide, but you just keeping turning in. The floatiness you mentioned is the lightening of the wheel due to understeer. But with heavily saturated settings, you just feel resistance, no grip loss, and therefore keep pushing. As I've mentioned in other posts, this can result in faster hot lap times. But in a longer race, you will suffer, because you can't manage the tires as well. Looking at the two videos, you can see you're scrubbing the tires way more than I am.
That car is floaty IRL, as well. And GT cars are softer than modern open wheelers. The Formula classes feel much tighter than the GT class with my settings, but I wouldn't consider the GT classes floaty, just less saturated, because I choose slip feel and full dynamic range over extraneous road feel and texture.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you, just responding to your comments. I didn't think you'd like them, and definitely don't think you can see the difference with just a few hours. As many people have mentioned, it takes a while (often days), to really get over heavy saturation, if that's what you're used to. In fact, not too long ago, your comments above could have very well been my own, as I too was using and comfortable with a heavily saturated tune. It took reading a lot of comments, and me giving the changes almost a full week of comparative testing, before I finally realized what was going on in the dynamic.
Again, no worries. We all have our preferences. Glad you've found your unicorn and are out of the rabbit hole. I doubt SMS will be making any more changes to the models, so it looks like your tweaking days are over. :)
My Settings are Very Simple... If or Any 1 who uses them want Less Power to the wheel because it May be Stronger than they Like...Once the Correct GM FFB is set according to wheel used Simply Reduce the RAC to adjust the strength Level of the FFB... RAC can be Redueced without Losing Dynamic Range...RAC set the Base power Level of FFB...EX: if set a 75 the FFB Power will start at 75% and Rise according to Bumps, Curbs, Weight Tranfer etc. but on Smooth areas of a givin Track RAC will Not fall below the Level RAC is set to....Thats How i use it for My Tweek settings and it works well.
Agreed Yes i did Not do well in those Races... LOL!!! But I Mostly Race Gt3 so the cars and tracks i was Not Familiar with... But Im Working on that:yes: IIRC Neither 1 of us Won any of those Races Matter of Fact Neither 1 of use Got on Podium either:sorrow: LOL Tweeking over so im working on it:yes:
In the words of the Great Rick Bobby.." If you aint First ya Last" :victorious:
Second Place = First to taste Defeat!!! LOL:p
Edit: Dont be Offended:very_drunk:... I didn't Say your settings were Bad they are just Not for Me... Thats JMO... Shruggs:indecisiveness:
Random thought...With the way Pcars feels Now Assetto Corsa Better be Great!!! Pcars is Going to be Hard to beat:encouragement:
My Settings are Very Simple... If or Any 1 who uses them want Less Power to the wheel because it May be Stronger than they Like...Once the Correct GM FFB is set according to wheel used Simply Reduce the RAC to adjust the strength Level of the FFB... RAC can be Redueced without Losing Dynamic Range...RAC set the Base power Level of FFB...EX: if set a 75 the FFB Power will start at 75% and Rise according to Bumps, Curbs, Weight Tranfer etc. but on Smooth areas of a givin Track RAC will Not fall below the Level RAC is set to....Thats How i use it for My Tweek settings and it works well.
Agreed Yes i did Not do well in those Races... LOL!!! But I Mostly Race Gt3 so the cars and tracks i was Not Familiar with... But Im Working on that:yes: IIRC Neither 1 of us Won any of those Races Matter of Fact Neither 1 of use Got on Podium either:sorrow: LOL Tweeking over so im working on it:yes:
In the words of the Great Rick Bobby.." If you aint First ya Last" :victorious:
Second Place = First to taste Defeat!!! LOL:p
Edit: Dont be Offended:very_drunk:... I didn't Say your settings were Bad they are just Not for Me... Thats JMO... Shruggs:indecisiveness:
Random thought...With the way Pcars feels Now Assetto Corsa Better be Great!!! Pcars is Going to be Hard to beat:encouragement:
I mostly race open wheel and have often said how I'm not a fan of GT3, but I adapted just fine to the other classes and less familiar tracks. IMO, that's because my FFB has good fidelity and I know where my grip levels are--when to push and when to back off--and can tell what state the car is in--settled vs. unsettled. I actually took 2nd and 3rd in last weekend's races. Prior to that, I may not have had a podium, but I drove solid races, kept it on the track, and didn't crash anyone else out of the race.
ROFL.... Ricky Bobby and Ayrton Senna can say what they like. Ricky's fictional, and Senna was enough of a bad-ass to say whatever he wants. :) But we all know that in sim-racing, we non-professionals can be just as proud of 6th or 7th place as we can 1st or 2nd, if we raced our best. And, conversely, we can be just as disappointed when we don't. Regardless, I've said many times, that I don't consider myself to be a fast driver. You on the other hand, have said you're so fast (due to your good FFB), that you don't even need to tune your car, and can just run the default setups and be competitive. That's why I was surprised to see you behind me. I just assumed you'd be up front running with Ekay, Malt, Diesel, and Seb. Now, those guys are fast. I'm surprised they don't talk more sh#!. They've certainly earned the right to.
Anyway, I'm not offended. We're all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not selling anything. I was just responding to your comments. Cheers! :)
RAC can be Redueced without Losing Dynamic Range...RAC set the Base power Level of FFB...EX: if set a 75 the FFB Power will start at 75% and Rise according to Bumps, Curbs, Weight Tranfer etc. but on Smooth areas of a givin Track RAC will Not fall below the Level RAC is set to....Thats How i use it for My Tweek settings and it works well.
Are you sure about that? I've never thought of RAC as a starting point. I've always thought of it as more of a limiter, which would actually make it a compressor.
Also, if everything started at 75%, then your dynamic range would only have 25% of the scale to work with. That doesn't seem right. As a limiter/compressor, it would be providing 75% of the range, and the higher you set it, the more range you get. Which would explain Tennenbaum's recommendation/suggestion to try and run it at 2.00. That would raise the ceiling to the max and allow you to get the full dynamic range, provided your other settings keep your FFB out of clipping range. If it were a starting point, you would never be able to run it at 2.00, or even above 1.0 for that matter.
GrimeyDog
05-05-2016, 17:16
Are you sure about that? I've never thought of RAC as a starting point. I've always thought of it as more of a limiter, which would actually make it a compressor.
Also, if everything started at 75%, then your dynamic range would only have 25% of the scale to work with. That doesn't seem right. As a limiter/compressor, it would be providing 75% of the range, and the higher you set it, the more range you get. Which would explain Tennenbaum's recommendation/suggestion to try and run it at 2.00. That would raise the ceiling to the max and allow you to get the full dynamic range, provided your other settings keep your FFB out of clipping range. If it were a starting point, you would never be able to run it at 2.00, or even above 1.0 for that matter.
https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM
Nope IMO RAC sets the Starting power level of FFB Forces... Set at 75 it will Rise According to Bumps Curbs Etc. but will Not Fall Below the Set RAC.
IMO RAG is the Limiter any forces that Try to Spike/Rise above its set Limit will Be Cut/Clipped.
Video Clearly shows RAC at 50 and Graph line stays Mainly to 50% Of Graph Box Volume except under Load Bumps Curbs Etc... The Power Level of the FFB also decreased accordingly with the set RAC value... I tested it at 50, 75 and 92 For each test the FFB line Rose according to # value set and Power Level also increased accordingly.
Its a Simple Test you or any 1 can test this to see for your self... Testing this wont even take 10min.
Edit: I dont Recall what update Pcars was upto when this Video was Made... But i know that i was Still using Fz,Mz 100.... So yes Graph FFB Spike Lines are Very High but even still the Fact that the FFB power Decreased/ Increased according to the set RAC Value Reamains... I now use Fz 60, Mz 30
Its a Simple Test you or any 1 can test this to see for your self... Testing this wont even take 10min.
It is simple, which is actually what drove my question. My RAC is 0.85, but when you watch my video, it's obvious that the waveform is running below 85%. IMO, the reason yours jump up to the RAC limit, is because of the saturation. It's not starting at 50, 75, 92, it's just jumping up to the RAC ceiling very quickly, to whatever you have it set to. With less saturation, I think the rise to the RAC limit would be more gradual.
Anyway... I agree to disagree. If you like the feel, that's all that matters. :)
GrimeyDog
05-05-2016, 18:37
It is simple, which is actually what drove my question. My RAC is 0.85, but when you watch my video, it's obvious that the waveform is running below 85%. IMO, the reason yours jump up to the RAC limit, is because of the saturation. It's not starting at 50, 75, 92, it's just jumping up to the RAC ceiling very quickly, to whatever you have it set to. With less saturation, I think the rise to the RAC limit would be more gradual.
Anyway... I agree to disagree. If you like the feel, that's all that matters. :)
Settings make No Difference Saturated Not Saturated the point is that the RAC will either + or - minus the FFB power Level...Very simple and easy to test.... when you + or - RAC you will Notice a Power Decrease/Increase very simple.... case point and fact:yes: every thing else is just your opinion which makes it irrelevant Non factual and really who cares:confused: and yes you do have a right to your point of View/opinion but in the Big picture you only represent you:stupid:
Yes i know you think My settings are Saturated but on the Contrary i think your settings are Weak and unbalanced.
again i use no setting above 100/1.00 and the power and feel is there...IMO because the power is obviously present with settings at 100/1.00 or Lower it baffles me as to why some use settings 101/1.01+:confused: IMO this makes No sense... You are over driving 1 part of the FFB system to compensate for under driving the other parts:indecisiveness:Shruggs... if it works for you fine.
IMO Its all about balance.
Settings make No Difference Saturated Not Saturated the point is that the RAC wil either + or - minus the FFB power Level...Very simple and easy to test.... when you Lower RAC you will Notice a Power Decrease/Increase very simple.
Yes i know you think My settings are Saturated but on the Contrary i think your settings are unballanced and
Edit: Comment removed, because I just don't care anymore. And I'm pretty sure everyone else is tired of our back and forth. :sleeping:
GrimeyDog
05-05-2016, 19:12
Edit: Comment removed, because I just don't care anymore. And I'm pretty sure everyone else is tired of our back and forth. :sleeping:
Yes i agree:yes: lets move on:applause:
RAG sets the power of the FFB oscillation. RAC sets the point at which this oscillation will occur.
inthebagbud
05-05-2016, 21:26
Yes i agree:yes: lets move on:applause:
:applause: but a bit of :sorrow:
tennenbaum
05-05-2016, 22:17
Are you sure about that? I've never thought of RAC as a starting point. I've always thought of it as more of a limiter, which would actually make it a compressor.
Also, if everything started at 75%, then your dynamic range would only have 25% of the scale to work with. That doesn't seem right. As a limiter/compressor, it would be providing 75% of the range, and the higher you set it, the more range you get. Which would explain Tennenbaum's recommendation/suggestion to try and run it at 2.00. That would raise the ceiling to the max and allow you to get the full dynamic range, provided your other settings keep your FFB out of clipping range. If it were a starting point, you would never be able to run it at 2.00, or even above 1.0 for that matter.
RAC is indeed NOT a "starting point", but sets the value where the soft-limiting (sort of strong hockey-stick compression) sets in and hinders forces to exceed that value. Except spikes, that are supposed to pass that limit due to the way the RA module is constructed and intended to work by the devs. That's what the telemetry also shows a clear as it can be. Cheers!
tennenbaum
05-05-2016, 22:26
FFB TEST with telemetry vids.
I took the Ford MkIV to the Glen...
Could my own FFB "theories" stand a practical test? What could be better than a shootout ;-)
Grimey's, JS's and SMS default's - tested against my own setting.
Why these settings?
1. With Grimey's setting not being in the test, nobody would be interested in reading it ;-)
2. There are only few FFB approaches that got really popular, not to say famous. Grimey live with it! :-)
3. The majority of people IMO prefer heavier, strong, wheel feel. That's just Grimey's turf...
4. Each of the three* approaches represents a different fundamental way how pCars FFB flexibility can be utilized to provide different FFB experiences that work all great, but in different "style".
(*my setting doesn't fulfill the criteria, it's just here to spice up the test...)
So it's not the quality of the wine we compare here but the taste.
So it's NOT a shootout!
Instead i was interested to experience different FFB styles quickly one after the other. Usually i'm too lazy and impatient to jump back and forth in the different menus.
And i was looking for surprises. Which happened!
The test...
I did it quick and dirty, I allowed myself 3 - 5 laps in Free Practice Mode to judge - with one exception, which i come to later.
I just made sure the lap times were within a 1,5 second range with all settings. The test runs were all made within 1 1/2 hours. I started with Grimeys setting and ended with the SMS setting. If i had ended with Grimeys it's very likely I would have been slightly faster with his setting, since of course i got more familiar with the conditions of track and car by each round. I know the Glen pretty good because of all my Ruf 8 GT3 testings, but i never drove the Ford MkIV before.
Nevertheless it's important to understand that the differences of the lap times have nothing todo with the quality of each setting.
My cornering is inconsistent. That's bad driving, not bad FFB.
I didn't list all the different values of the different global settings. They can all easily be found in the forum. However i thought it's interesting to see the in car setting side by side, according to the idea that the in-car Fxyzm and SoP represent the "source" of forces, which are "modeling" the FFB feel representing the car's driving behavior. While the global settings "model" the signal in a way that it fits best to your wheel and your personal taste. So i didn't list the global settings with all its details. They can be found also easily in the forum.
Doing such a comparison, the ever discussed question occurs again: "One in car setting to rule them all?" or One individual in car setting per car?". Let's see...
For readers not so familiar with the "Mothers of all FFB settings":
a.) Grimey's in-car settings are based on the "one for all" idea - but to be adjusted per car by your likings! I used his basic numbers.
b.) Jack Spade creates an in-car "tweak" for each car individually. See settings here: http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/
c.) SMS - Slightly Mad Studio default in-car settings are all 100/100/100/100. We don't know what FxyMz mix balance SMS "put behind" these values. Starting with patch #8.0 the default numbers didn't change, but it felt as if SMS put better balanced tire force "behind" the 100 numbers. JS usually adjusts some of his his tweaks after new patches come out.
I'm a fan of the idea that one in car-setting can be used for all cars, but the test made me rethink.... And: my settings are experimental, not representative, no regular alternative!
All settings that i used for the test are up to date. All settings do not use Soft Clipper. I didn't list the global FM FFB "volume knob" value, because some like to hear the song louder some less loud. We know the absolute FFB strength and SG does influence the FFB feel beside the absolute FFB strength, but let's keep this apart here.
I also put aside the Scoop Settings SK and SR, since they depend much more on the wheel hardware, and given that somebody settles for his individual SK and SR values he'd probably use it for all the settings. I also did not care for arm angle. JS changes arm angle from 1500 to 2000 for the Ford MkIV, the other settings use its default = 1500.
232705
Video for each setting, click link.
Test 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YIQScupkAU
Grimey's with his original setting, therefore no smoothing and damping.
Test 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRUOoS0Ihic
Grimey's with his original setting, but smoothing and damping with 10 for Fx, Fy, Mz and SoP.
Why? I wanted to see the difference between "noise" and real "road feel".
Test 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAWaK23m15M
Grimey's without soft-limiting by RAC. (By setting RAC to 2.00, but keeping RAG and RAB active).
I wanted to see how much compression he uses to create his characteristic Grimey Style Feel.
Test 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5CTDrt1ses
tennenbaum
That's my baseline, from where i come from. Needed it for orientation.
Test 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0eukPRmrwI
Jack Spade original setting
Test 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qi4uVLGSVc
JS original setting, but with the RAG/B/C module entirely switched off, by setting RAB = 0, which turns off RAG and RAC.
I wanted to see how much compression he uses.
Test 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltWfXi9xuTs
SMS default.
Why should our user generated FFB tweaks be better than what the devs deliver by default?
Remark: There is some clipping with all the settings, except Grimeys, especially in the first right hand corner after the start/finish line. It shows that the settings are really trying to max out the dynamic range, which is good, because we know clipping fast and high spikes is tolerable, as long as the tire side load feeling and Mz isn't disturbed too much. Grimey's setting doesn't show clipping, because of the way he balances the tire forces and RAC.
Here we go:
Test 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YIQScupkAU
Grimey's: The "all for one" idea works well for this car. As expected the wheel is quite heavy during cornering, lively and vivid even on straights. The entire "feel" reminds me a lot of what i feel when i do karting occasionally IRL. You must really "push", willing to be fast, otherwise you loose, but if you do you're getting rewarded with better lap times. And while i push i'm too busy and exhausted to notice the steering details. In so far IMO Grimey's setting is closest to reality. (But i don't know how real race cars and the MkIV feel). The setting is entertaining and rich. I guess if someone sits behind a sim wheel the first time that's what he'd expect to feel. Grimey also offers unparalleled "road feel". I assume the feel is even better with a CSW wheel, than with my T300. I assume so because it seems to me that the strong overall character of the setting challenges my wheel so much, that i'm not sure, if my wheel doesn't produce artefacts. The wheel might not be capable to reproduce all these quick changes fast enough, which leads to something that i would describe as a bit of a grinding feeling, like having sand in the wheel's mechanical parts. Saying so, i have the suspicion that a part of the road feel comes perhaps from such "noise", and is not really informative about the track surface. To avoid a misunderstanding: Even if some of the road feel is not real, it mustn't be a bad thing.
Test 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRUOoS0Ihic
I added value 10 for smoothing and damping. The sandy feeling in my wheel gets less. I liked the over all feel better. With a CSW wheel i might prefer the original setting without smoothing. Though, now that my T300 got smoother with less "micro-rattles" i could concentrate better on the more relevant steering components: slip angle, side load, etc. That the wheel has mostly more constant weight during cornering than the other settings, while masking some of the lower tire forces, didn't concern me much. Weight shifts of the car and braking was less informative, but that is IMO not much needed in a sim if you're racing fast anyway. Speaking for myself, the moment i need to feel feedback coming from Fx or a lighter wheel that indicates understeer, it's mostly to late anyway. As long as i'm on the fast line, i don't need this info, I'm more interested in details about tire side load and slip angle, Mz. The latter is a bit compromised with Grimeys setting, but I like more Mz than most guys, so i'm not representative. There is a catch: Different FFB settings can make a difference when it comes to tracks that are not familiar to you. Then a setting can be better that tells more about Fx, weight shifts, and subtler info. Haiden pointed that out in one of his posts, that an FFB setting should be also tested on tracks where you have to improvise not knowing your fastest line yet. However, after all Grimey's setting is the perfect setting if you're looking for an intense, rich FFB experience. The "one in-car setting for all" idea is convenient. It might not fully apply to every car, bus as he suggested, just adjust. I also think his in-car setting is robust, compatible with many cars, because he got only a few Fx in the mix. The force that varies a lot between the cars.
Test 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAWaK23m15M
I turned off the RAC soft-limiting. As a matter of fact I didn't turn it fully off, but set it to 2.00. So all forces could play upwards into the range > 1.00 until 2.00 without getting soft limited. Forces higher than 2.00 got then clamped by RAC at the value 2.0, but that didn't matter for the test. The reason to raise RAC from 0.75 to 2.00 was my intention to get an idea how much of the FFB forces are actually compressed when RAC is set 0.75. So instead of getting soft-limited, the higher forces got clipped. And without RAG active it can be conveniently seen in the telemetry hud. Now when you look at the telemetry you see the inevitable, and for the test intended, clipping lines. They indicate how much of the FFB gets compressed by RAC, when RAC is active. The amount of compression shows how Grimey achieves to deliver a solid still responsive wheel weight without the negative effects of clipping. He feeds the RAC compressor with relatively high tire forces granting wheel weight even in the absence of higher forces (e.g. on straights). He lifts over-proportionally lower forces and makes higher forces deltas less detailed. So more lower tire forces are brought up to levels where you can actually feel them better, but at the same time they are in competition with the stronger forces that are squeezed in their neighborhood. The "transparency" of the signal suffers a little bit. Though the degree of available details is a quite abstract criterium, and rather a matter of taste than of much relevance. As long as all forces are brought into the dynamic range. Which is guaranteed with Grimey's setting. Bottom line, as much as Grimey's setting is discussed because of its popularity, the way he composes his setting is great when you aim for all those above mentioned qualities. Qualities the setting surely delivers. When you're hooked up with this intensive feeling you will hardly want to change...
Test 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5CTDrt1ses
tennenbaum setting... turned out to feel crappy with the Ford MkIV. It feels fine for me with the Ruf 8 GT3, the BMW M1, the FB and others, but with the Ford it simply felt awful. So my usually preferred FxyzMz mix doesn't work for all cars. With other FxyzMz mixes, like Grimey's, with less Fx, the "one for all" concept might still work, but according to what i pointed out in test #6, i doubt that such density can be achieved as JS does with his individual in car settings.
Test 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0eukPRmrwI
Jack Spade's setting is like "having it all." Right out of the box. What sounds like a compromising "mainstream" setting feels well balanced, with lots of details, intuitive and delivers nice road feel with little noise. I think the setting really maxes out the dynamic range of the system. It's s almost too "talkative" for my taste. The setting is a "no-brainer" for everybody who is looking for a great baseline FFB setting. Many are using this setting and tweak it by nuances to their likings. I also feel attempted to always check first on his settings to get a reference before fumbling around with my own. I miss a bit the pureness and detail when it comes to the side load of the front tires. It's probably all there, but i didn't spend enough time wit it to be capable to read the setting to its full extend.
Test 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qi4uVLGSVc
JS original setting, but i turned off the RAG/B/C module by setting RAB to 0. This way i got i more of a "pure" feeling. And a tad more constant wheel weight during cornering, resulting from tire side load, not being "interrupted" by the counter-acting RA when the delta torques become smaller. Which is what i actually try to achieve with slow hand steering: constant tire load with as little delta torque as possible. Being in a force feedback loop it is more difficult for me when RA interferes by interpreting and changing the deltas. I knew i will be faster, because tire load is more important than road feel for me. So the JS setting should work best for me, if i keep RAC at around 1.00 but switch off RAG. I just didn't figure out yet, how that can be done. Possibly RAG set to 1.00 leaves the signal unaltered (as poirqc mentioned), but i'm not sure yet.
EDIT 28.05.16
According to JS RAG set to 1.00 has the effect that no Relative Adjust (delta torque) is added. Poirqc mentioned the same. So i think we can take that as a given. Which means my question got answered: i can "switch off" RAG just by leaving at 1.00. Sounds paradox, but that's how it is. So when you want to use RAC but no RAG you just keep the module active by not setting RAB to 0, set RAG to 1.00 and set the RAC clamp (soft limiter) to any value between 0.00 and 2.00 that you like.
Turning off RA and especially RAC another thing got obvious: JS sets the tire forces to a level where they stay mostly (I'd say approx 80%) in the 0.00 - 1.00 corridor. So almost no compression and almost none soft limiting needed. As much linear as possible, therefore granting details. The clipping you see is less massive as it seems. During the duration of the clipping it only occurs to few forces. And the ones that get clipped don't exceed 1.00 very much. You would expect that without RAG compression the signal would be too "light" to speak up loud enough, details, sensation, etc. I don't know how such strong relative and absolute FFB strength is achieved without the use of some degree of saturation? I guess the key are the individual in-car tweaks. By balancing the in-car settings he optimizes the forces in a way that they build up to a solid "body" of forces which is always there, instead of forces cannibalizing each other, or adding to each other in the wrong moment. I assume that is what he means about "avoiding phasing". Bringing the forces into a balance not only representing a logical driving behavior, but also providing a rich signal that can only be done with individual car specific tweaker files / values... If my assumption is correct, it'd explain why the next test got special...
Test 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltWfXi9xuTs
When i reset to SMS default, i needed 16 ! laps until a got consistent lap times. (It took me only 3 laps to get into ok lap times with an almost fully saturated wheel when i did test 3!) The SMS default setting felt good being lively and attractive immediately, but i was significantly slower with it. it was somehow rich but confusing. It was not as bad as my setting for the Ford, but by far not as detailed and satisfying than the other settings. I felt what JS meant when he uses the word "phasing": The forces interfere witch each other in a way you get a "bulky" feeling, and at other times it feels "thin". It would have been interesting to see what happens when you turn off RAC. Looking at the telemetry i could imagine that RAG = 1possibly does switch off RA. While only RAC is still at work when RAB is not set to zero. The telemetry line looks like as if this could be true, and the feeling was not as vivid as with JS' RAG set to 1.50. Does SMS use RAC's soft limiting function, but no Relative Adjust? RAG set to 1,00 evoking the impression that RA is in effect? Bottom line, the defaults can be optimized by FFB tweaking! And the 100/100/100/100 Fxyzm mix doesn't work optimal, but should be seen as an invitation to tune. What looks disappointing at first is good: SMS made it possible to achieve best possible FFB quality made by the efforts of many, instead by a few.
GrimeyDog
05-05-2016, 22:39
RAC is indeed NOT a "starting point", but sets the value where the soft-limiting (sort of strong hockey-stick compression) sets in and hinders forces to exceed that value. Except spikes, that are supposed to pass that limit due to the way the RA module is constructed and intended to work by the devs. That's what the telemetry also shows a clear as it can be. Cheers!
Can you post this in Simple terms...I'm having a few drinks and My brain dont wanna work too hard...:very_drunk::very_drunk::very_drunk:
tennenbaum
05-05-2016, 22:46
Can you post this in Simple terms...I'm having a few drinks and My brain dont wanna work too hard...:very_drunk::very_drunk::very_drunk:
Same over here:D Let's have a toast on an active forum!
RAC is indeed NOT a "starting point", but sets the value where the soft-limiting (sort of strong hockey-stick compression) sets in and hinders forces to exceed that value. Except spikes, that are supposed to pass that limit due to the way the RA module is constructed and intended to work by the devs. That's what the telemetry also shows a clear as it can be. Cheers!
^^This! It's so obvious I couldn't even continue the discussion... LOL. In both videos you can see the waveform flowing below the RAC limit.
GrimeyDog
06-05-2016, 00:02
Tennenbaum once again sets things straight with another Great Post:applause:
Your review was very Constructive, Fair and Optimistic thanks for yet another Great Post:yes:
i will amend My PDF to also include turning down TF and RAC to better adjust wheel weight and Strength of FFB forces so people can better fine tune the Tweek to the wheel used and personal taste:yes: TM wheels and other wheels with Smaller Rims than the V2,V1 may Need Lower TF and RAC... The wheel rim is smaller and provides less leverage so the Smaller rim size Can make the Wheel weight and FFB Forces feel stronger due to this fact.
I will also work on updating the first post to show this and other Great post that you, poirqc and others have made... I will try to get to that this weekend:yes:
Well after reading poirqcs post on ddr and guys were asking for help I went home and played with it some more and guess what I learned a few things. The hud makes it really easy to do and see if you know what to look for. Thanks poirqc. First thing is the fcm seems to be calculating things on the high side at least for the t300. All three tests and on two wheels gave me the same numbers. This was with both fcm also. Exact same numbers everytime. Before somebody rips me a new one I'm not saying it doesn't work just my findings and its been stated many times its a baseline so no big deal. It gave me .13 every time which is way too high. So off to test poirqcs idea on seeing it. You can very clearly. Pick a track that's relatively smooth on the straights so bumps don't interfere now run about 40mph or so and turn the wheel back and forth slowly. In the snake youll see a little step where the ddr/ ddf connects to the main snake shape. Easiest way to do it at first is pick a number way high at first so you can really see it. There will be an obvious step in the snake shape when turning back and forth slowly. Now set it to where you think it should be and check again then just adjust it up or down until you get it as close as you can. Next do the same with ddf. It may take a few times to get it right. Road test if its lined up and no notch in the wheel or oscillation your good. If you get a little lost you can go back to poirqcs tips a few pages back. I do recommend trying with the fa after whatever car you like to use if that works with no oscillation you shouldn't have problems with other cars. I actually ended up at quite a bit lower than what the fcm was giving me. I think this is the easiest and probably best way of doing it.
gotdirt410sprintcar
06-05-2016, 02:28
Peace and happiness is back !!!!
Well I better start reading!
Peace and happiness is back !!!!
Well I better start reading!
It never went away, really!
Tennenbaum, did you run SMS default at SG 3 or 1 ?
Nice writeup btw!
gotdirt410sprintcar
06-05-2016, 03:45
Have a question i'm going to be updating my ps4 to the 2tb nyko hub. What usb stick should I get a 200 gb one or a 500 gb to transfer the games. I probably can use the cloud to don't now how that works not all games are downloaded so that might take longer like I said don't now how that works thanks
not wanting to spend crazy money on a usb stick
Well after reading poirqcs post on ddr and guys were asking for help I went home and played with it some more and guess what I learned a few things. The hud makes it really easy to do and see if you know what to look for. Thanks poirqc. First thing is the fcm seems to be calculating things on the high side at least for the t300. All three tests and on two wheels gave me the same numbers. This was with both fcm also. Exact same numbers everytime. Before somebody rips me a new one I'm not saying it doesn't work just my findings and its been stated many times its a baseline so no big deal. It gave me .13 every time which is way too high. So off to test poirqcs idea on seeing it. You can very clearly. Pick a track that's relatively smooth on the straights so bumps don't interfere now run about 40mph or so and turn the wheel back and forth slowly. In the snake youll see a little step where the ddr/ ddf connects to the main snake shape. Easiest way to do it at first is pick a number way high at first so you can really see it. There will be an obvious step in the snake shape when turning back and forth slowly. Now set it to where you think it should be and check again then just adjust it up or down until you get it as close as you can. Next do the same with ddf. It may take a few times to get it right. Road test if its lined up and no notch in the wheel or oscillation your good. If you get a little lost you can go back to poirqcs tips a few pages back. I do recommend trying with the fa after whatever car you like to use if that works with no oscillation you shouldn't have problems with other cars. I actually ended up at quite a bit lower than what the fcm was giving me. I think this is the easiest and probably best way of doing it.
Thanks for this post.
Now I need to work on deadzone and sr and hopefully get a little better ffb =)
How far back is poirqc's post regarding deadzone and using the HUD? I really like the idea of having a visual reference to work with.
With the fcm I'm useless and can't get it to work, lol so using the HUD hopefully will work better for me than feel.
tennenbaum
06-05-2016, 10:27
It never went away, really!
Tennenbaum, did you run SMS default at SG 3 or 1 ?
Nice writeup btw!
You nailed it, of course i must state Steering Gain in the overview! I forgot. I revised my post and added SG. Thanks for making sure my post makes sense!
SMS default 3 or 1 ? Very good questions. I was sure it was 1.0, otherwise the telemetry must have look different... But i'll check!!
Have a question i'm going to be updating my ps4 to the 2tb nyko hub. What usb stick should I get a 200 gb one or a 500 gb to transfer the games. I probably can use the cloud to don't now how that works not all games are downloaded so that might take longer like I said don't now how that works thanks
not wanting to spend crazy money on a usb stick
You have to use the usb. I watched the video for that.
Thanks for this post.
Now I need to work on deadzone and sr and hopefully get a little better ffb =)
How far back is poirqc's post regarding deadzone and using the HUD? I really like the idea of having a visual reference to work with.
With the fcm I'm useless and can't get it to work, lol so using the HUD hopefully will work better for me than feel.
It's in my signature. :)
You nailed it, of course i must state Steering Gain in the overview! I forgot. I revised my post and added SG. Thanks for making sure my post makes sense!
SMS default 3 or 1 ? Very good questions. I was sure it was 1.0, otherwise the telemetry must have look different... But i'll check!!
On the PC, there's 3 global templates: Default, Classic, Custom.
The only difference between the first two is: Default(SG 3, Game FFB 100%) and Classic(SG 1 and game FFB 85%). As soon as you move anything, you're on the Custom template.
On my G27, SG is at 3 on default, on other wheels, i can go to SG 5...
Imho, it's the worst thing about the FFB now is that a new user, on first boot, starts with the Default template, on PC. This isn't optimal, from my PoV. Clipping happends way too soon.
Thanks for this post.
Now I need to work on deadzone and sr and hopefully get a little better ffb =)
How far back is poirqc's post regarding deadzone and using the HUD? I really like the idea of having a visual reference to work with.
With the fcm I'm useless and can't get it to work, lol so using the HUD hopefully will work better for me than feel.
He didn't actually explain how to do it using the hud just meantioned you could see it and had tips for setting drr and drf. So I tried it since you guys asked and it worked great! Much easier when you can actually see what youre doing with the numbers. I think it was 3 or for pages back. The fcm is good especially now that you can experiment with all the settings and see what they do. I like visual references. Using the hud for setting that or at least checking the numbers from the fcm should be in the beginning of grimeys forum so guys can find it easier. If you have any trouble ill give you a hand.
GrimeyDog
06-05-2016, 11:34
He didn't actually explain how to do it using the hud just meantioned you could see it and had tips for setting drr and drf. So I tried it since you guys asked and it worked great! Much easier when you can actually see what youre doing with the numbers. I think it was 3 or for pages back. The fcm is good especially now that you can experiment with all the settings and see what they do. I like visual references. Using the hud for setting that or at least checking the numbers from the fcm should be in the beginning of grimeys forum so guys can find it easier. If you have any trouble ill give you a hand.
If you can help Me find it by posting the link i will add it to the Front page over the weekend... also link any other Notable post...
Tennenbaum, Poirqc are you guys willing to Help manage front page and updates to main page... if so i will provide you the info you in so you can do so.... Cheers
If you can help Me find it by posting the link i will add it to the Front page over the weekend... also link any other Notable post...
Tennenbaum, Poirqc are you guys willing to Help manage front page and updates to main page... if so i will provide you the info you in so you can do so.... Cheers
Its on page 312. Its part of his guide. The little write up on how to do it using the hud I did. If youre going to use that ill do a better one. I just think at this point with 3000 plus posts it would make things a lot easier for people. I see people complaining all the time about finding information so let make it easy to understand and put it in one place.
GrimeyDog
06-05-2016, 13:12
Its on page 312. Its part of his guide. The little write up on how to do it using the hud I did. If youre going to use that ill do a better one. I just think at this point with 3000 plus posts it would make things a lot easier for people. I see people complaining all the time about finding information so let make it easy to understand and put it in one place.
Yes I Agree...We can Really Make the Thread Much Better with that Idea... Hopefully Tennenbaum, Poirqc will sign on as Co Admins for the thread also... this can become the Corner Stone for Pcars FFB info.
Your self and Every 1 here has Made Great contributions to the Growth of Pcars FFB knowledge!!! We have all come together in a Great way.. and even though we may have different theory's or Ideas about how the FFB system works... Some times there will be Frenzied debates about this or that belief/ Idea about how things work... It is those debates that cause us to question our Own Beliefs/ Ideas and Double Check for correctness... This is what keeps the Knowledge of the FFB system Growing and Moving Forward to a Final FFB solution. Kudos and Cheers to All:applause:
Jack Spade
06-05-2016, 15:50
@tennenbaum
Must have been many hours testing the stuff and writing a wall of text, respect and thanks:)
Exactly one year has passed since this game was released to the public and Iīm wondering why people still fiddle with
FFB and discussing it over and over again, anyway....concerning my stuff.
Everybody should know by now pCARS FFB is directly derived from individual car and tire physics. We have more than 100
different cars in game and each one spits out different data. Racing teams setup their individual cars in order to get the
best performance considering type of track, weather, temperature etc. A kid easily understands the Clio is something
completely different than the FA or Kart for instance, so how much sense does it make to use the same setting for these?
Individual car FFB is the core of this system, whatever you do with the following processing stages canīt correct any flaws
in the core.
In the early days of WMD I did what the majority of people most probably would do by tinkering trial and error FFB - going
back and forth with various settings, driving numerous laps for hours and hours etc. For more than 100 cars in game this
is not an effective method so probably understandable some people use the short cut, one for all.
I have devoloped a method to assess all forces on all cars, was several days of boring work, sometimes asking myself why
am I doing this. But at the end of the day simple math lets me adjust certain ratios. I have posted 9 different sets of
tweaker files settings, it would be naive to think all of it could be done by trial and error, driving thousands of laps
adjusting and testing days and months. Actually my Standard-Classic setting is the basic for other versions. I assess and adjust
the ratios before I finally drive and test a new car on Oulton Park as my test track. This track has all sorts of curves
and bumps to works out what fine tuning must be done. As of today I normally need not more than 2 or 3 laps to be certain
about a final setting, for the SopLat version 3 or 4 curves will do already just to make sure no surprises or calculation
mistake. The 66% and all other version donīt require further testing anymore, just math and experience.
BTW you seem to be one of the few people really noticing and mentioning "phase issues". To those who are not familiar with
it. Fz is the only force the phase is negative by default, itīs on all cars except the Mazda Radbul. On this car Fz is
positive but Fy is negative, this is completely exception to the SMS rule. In my tweaker file I have reversed these
phases "back to normal", impossible on the setup menu. In general my tweaker files are almost 100% free of phase
cancellation issues, also this is one of the reasons nothing really collapses or clips when the Relative stuff is off.
I use the Realtive stuff just to spice up the forces and avoid clipping, similar like in an audio mastering studio
as a compressor/limiter/EQ would do as the final polish on an already well balanced mix.
GrimeyDog
06-05-2016, 19:40
@tennenbaum
Must have been many hours testing the stuff and writing a wall of text, respect and thanks:)
Exactly one year has passed since this game was released to the public and Iīm wondering why people still fiddle with
FFB and discussing it over and over again, anyway....concerning my stuff.
Everybody should know by now pCARS FFB is directly derived from individual car and tire physics. We have more than 100
different cars in game and each one spits out different data. Racing teams setup their individual cars in order to get the
best performance considering type of track, weather, temperature etc. A kid easily understands the Clio is something
completely different than the FA or Kart for instance, so how much sense does it make to use the same setting for these?
Individual car FFB is the core of this system, whatever you do with the following processing stages canīt correct any flaws
in the core.
In the early days of WMD I did what the majority of people most probably would do by tinkering trial and error FFB - going
back and forth with various settings, driving numerous laps for hours and hours etc. For more than 100 cars in game this
is not an effective method so probably understandable some people use the short cut, one for all.
I have devoloped a method to assess all forces on all cars, was several days of boring work, sometimes asking myself why
am I doing this. But at the end of the day simple math lets me adjust certain ratios. I have posted 9 different sets of
tweaker files settings, it would be naive to think all of it could be done by trial and error, driving thousands of laps
adjusting and testing days and months. Actually my Standard-Classic setting is the basic for other versions. I assess and adjust
the ratios before I finally drive and test a new car on Oulton Park as my test track. This track has all sorts of curves
and bumps to works out what fine tuning must be done. As of today I normally need not more than 2 or 3 laps to be certain
about a final setting, for the SopLat version 3 or 4 curves will do already just to make sure no surprises or calculation
mistake. The 66% and all other version donīt require further testing anymore, just math and experience.
Just My thoughts because there is No official FFB Blue print/Guide there are No facts to debate... Just my thoughts on a few parts of this post.
Yes all cars are different but That's what Suspension tuning is for...IMO the cars being different has nothing to do with a bump in the Road the bump will Not Change because your in a Clio, FA or Kart but the way the car handles the bump is determined by the cars suspension.
FFB tweeking and Suspension Tuning are 2 totally different things.
FFB tweeking = Bump,Curb, Road,Weight transfer feel.
Suspension tuning = How your car will React and handle the Bump's,Curb's, Weight transfer.
To date i have Never seen a official SMS guide with a Given math formula as a rule to tweek by:confused: at this point i doubt that there will ever be 1 either:no: I personally don't follow the Mathematical or calculator method because of this...I had developed a math formula to do calculations by also:yes: ... But The Truth is even if i would have put it out there Some one would have said it was wrong and did not work because it was other and different than yours:rolleyes: ijs... at the end of the day it all has to be adjusted and refined by test laps anyway:yes:
This is just My point of view so no need for debate... just sharing my thoughts on certain parts of your post... variety is the spice of life its Great that we all are not locked in a 1 set FFB blue print for all.
In the absence of a official SMS FFB Blue Print/ Guide we can All Claim to be Masters of the FFB Tweek Kraft....There are No Rules only our personal theorys and beliefs that work for us.
Many people don't even know where to start when it come to the FFB tweeking:no:...The Tweeks Shared have made many people happy... thats whats most important:yes: :victorious: as Spock would say "Tweek Long and prosper" you have done Great work for many:encouragement:
Edit: Matter of Fact posted this a few days ago...The Super kart is Insane!!! That thing Laps a Short track like a LMP1!!!
https://youtu.be/FeuyaJRhpKg
tennenbaum
06-05-2016, 22:29
@tennenbaum
Must have been many hours testing the stuff and writing a wall of text, respect and thanks:)
Exactly one year has passed since this game was released to the public and Iīm wondering why people still fiddle with
FFB and discussing it over and over again, anyway....concerning my stuff.
Everybody should know by now pCARS FFB is directly derived from individual car and tire physics. We have more than 100
different cars in game and each one spits out different data. Racing teams setup their individual cars in order to get the
best performance considering type of track, weather, temperature etc. A kid easily understands the Clio is something
completely different than the FA or Kart for instance, so how much sense does it make to use the same setting for these?
Individual car FFB is the core of this system, whatever you do with the following processing stages canīt correct any flaws
in the core.
In the early days of WMD I did what the majority of people most probably would do by tinkering trial and error FFB - going
back and forth with various settings, driving numerous laps for hours and hours etc. For more than 100 cars in game this
is not an effective method so probably understandable some people use the short cut, one for all.
I have devoloped a method to assess all forces on all cars, was several days of boring work, sometimes asking myself why
am I doing this. But at the end of the day simple math lets me adjust certain ratios. I have posted 9 different sets of
tweaker files settings, it would be naive to think all of it could be done by trial and error, driving thousands of laps
adjusting and testing days and months. Actually my Standard-Classic setting is the basic for other versions. I assess and adjust
the ratios before I finally drive and test a new car on Oulton Park as my test track. This track has all sorts of curves
and bumps to works out what fine tuning must be done. As of today I normally need not more than 2 or 3 laps to be certain
about a final setting, for the SopLat version 3 or 4 curves will do already just to make sure no surprises or calculation
mistake. The 66% and all other version donīt require further testing anymore, just math and experience.
BTW you seem to be one of the few people really noticing and mentioning "phase issues". To those who are not familiar with
it. Fz is the only force the phase is negative by default, itīs on all cars except the Mazda Radbul. On this car Fz is
positive but Fy is negative, this is completely exception to the SMS rule. In my tweaker file I have reversed these
phases "back to normal", impossible on the setup menu. In general my tweaker files are almost 100% free of phase
cancellation issues, also this is one of the reasons nothing really collapses or clips when the Relative stuff is off.
I use the Realtive stuff just to spice up the forces and avoid clipping, similar like in an audio mastering studio
as a compressor/limiter/EQ would do as the final polish on an already well balanced mix.
Jack,
thanks for your comment on my post.
i know you have a professional background in the audio industry. Me too, years ago. I met talented world class artists, smart clients and intelligent producers, i don't remember one single person (beside the sound guys) who really understood the difference between "make it louder" or "make it loud while keeping the allowed level, but please mess up only as little as possible with the dynamic". (I got so fed up with the ignorance that i had a hidden fader under the mixing console allowing me to turn the "volume knob" without anybody knowing.)
... masking effects, attack/bleeding times, thresholds, phase issues, psycho-acoustic effects, and above all the never-ending battle of what's relative and what's absolute, and how to push for maximum loudness without loosing the details and the specific "sound": "warm", "cold", "analytic", "analog", wanted tape saturation versus digital saturation, unwanted over-saturation. ...the name of the game. We spend day and night fighting for 1-2 dB loudness and "style". Others couldn't analyze the the difference, but they could feel it. So there was a market for those who could do the "magic". I saw terrible and expansive fights about what's right and wrong and just "loud" or "beautiful transparent even on car speakers". ...When you mentioned S/N ratio i knew you know...
It's super simple and kind of elaborated at the same time. Good recipe for an active thread ;-) And a bit profane when math comes into play. I don't even wanna know the real formulas behind pCars computation. Though, while i say so... do you know if RA is an equation first degree, and is RAG rather attack time than gain... and is RAG = 1 = no "relative adjust? Wheel weight = integral of the i/o curve? And why is Fz inverse, even if scrub radius is positive? Isn't it smart to make Fz inverse, when you aim for a vivid FFB? ;-) Please don't tell! There must be still something to explore :D
Happy tweaking!
Jack Spade
07-05-2016, 06:54
Jack,
thanks for your comment on my post.
i know you have a professional background in the audio industry. Me too, years ago. I met talented world class artists, smart clients and intelligent producers, i don't remember one single person (beside the sound guys) who really understood the difference between "make it louder" or "make it loud while keeping the allowed level, but please mess up only as little as possible with the dynamic". (I got so fed up with the ignorance that i had a hidden fader under the mixing console allowing me to turn the "volume knob" without anybody knowing.)
... masking effects, attack/bleeding times, thresholds, phase issues, psycho-acoustic effects, and above all the never-ending battle of what's relative and what's absolute, and how to push for maximum loudness without loosing the details and the specific "sound": "warm", "cold", "analytic", "analog", wanted tape saturation versus digital saturation, unwanted over-saturation. ...the name of the game. We spend day and night fighting for 1-2 dB loudness and "style". Others couldn't analyze the the difference, but they could feel it. So there was a market for those who could do the "magic". I saw terrible and expansive fights about what's right and wrong and just "loud" or "beautiful transparent even on car speakers". ...When you mentioned S/N ratio i knew you know...
It's super simple and kind of elaborated at the same time. Good recipe for an active thread ;-) And a bit profane when math comes into play. I don't even wanna know the real formulas behind pCars computation. Though, while i say so... do you know if RA is an equation first degree, and is RAG rather attack time than gain... and is RAG = 1 = no "relative adjust? Wheel weight = integral of the i/o curve? And why is Fz inverse, even if scrub radius is positive? Isn't it smart to make Fz inverse, when you aim for a vivid FFB? ;-) Please don't tell! There must be still something to explore :D
Happy tweaking!
To your questions, I think RAG is a bit of both but Iīm not a torque expert. My last Relative tests were long ago IIRC RAG at 1.0 is neutral, above spices up, below dulls.
BTW for my force assessments I set all processing at zero, TF 100, SG 1.0, FFB 100 (havenīt toughed this one for ages)
In FFB topology 1 we had a parameter called FzPhase (self explain). Honestly I donīt know why Fz is negative, but I can tell you from experience reversing doesnīt
really help...why not?. Fz partly is a temporary and permanent force, not 100% physically correct but helps to get the picture. There is no vertical load when you
drive on plain tarmac so the force (rattle on bumps, kerbs) is zero. On the other side Fz has a permanent force component as well and this is whatīs causing phase
cancellation - I donīt tell you any more...explore:)
gotdirt410sprintcar
07-05-2016, 12:33
6 hours of spa is live last 3 hours on fs2 11:30AM
tennenbaum
07-05-2016, 14:55
To your questions, I think RAG is a bit of both but Iīm not a torque expert. My last Relative tests were long ago IIRC RAG at 1.0 is neutral, above spices up, below dulls.
BTW for my force assessments I set all processing at zero, TF 100, SG 1.0, FFB 100 (havenīt toughed this one for ages)
In FFB topology 1 we had a parameter called FzPhase (self explain). Honestly I donīt know why Fz is negative, but I can tell you from experience reversing doesnīt
really help...why not?. Fz partly is a temporary and permanent force, not 100% physically correct but helps to get the picture. There is no vertical load when you
drive on plain tarmac so the force (rattle on bumps, kerbs) is zero. On the other side Fz has a permanent force component as well and this is whatīs causing phase
cancellation - I donīt tell you any more...explore:)
I can't figure out RAG!
When you feed RAG with forces NOT exceeding 1.00, yes RAG = 1.00 it stays neutral. You can test it by changing RAB from 00.1 to 2.00. Doesn't change anything much. Though, when you feed RAG with forces >1.00 it gets active. That can be also tested with low/high RAB values. But with tire forces >1 you get either clipping in your way (when RAC is set to >1) or clamping (when RAC <1). So each way you can't really see what RAG is doing.
You may think of course feeding RAG = 1.00 with forces >1, the forces get altered not by RAG (assuming its neutral) but by RAC, or by clipping. That's what i thought first, too. But that's not the case. Take for example Grimey's setting with RAG = 1.00 and forces >1 granted, change RAB from low to high values and you will notice a significant difference. Which is the proof that RAG is at work. Thus not 'neutral" when set to 1.00 at, at least not with incoming forces >1.
Now, when you set RAG to values lower or higher 1.00 then it shows it's known dulling or spicing effect, also with tire forces <1.00. Which means imo that practically the setting of RAG, even while it seems it's fixed at a certain value (e.g. 1.00), depends actually on a second parameter (the intensity and kind of fast and slow tire forces) that "shifts" the point from where RAG either gets dulling or spicing. In other words the RAG setting is relative. Imagine the RAG slider knob moving around its visible position but you can't see that ... That makes dealing with the RAG/B/C module very complex. Too complex in my eyes. You're knotting your brain before you come to logical results - if at all?
So a lot of people with low tire forces kept in the range 0-1 think with RAG around 1.00 it spices up their steering, but it's not the case. Others with tire forces >1 (known or unknown) think RAG is inactive/neutral when they set it around 1.00, but it's not. And when you use SMS default that produces tire forces >1 you get some RAG spicing, but you can't logically tell how much. Then you change tireforces (without changing your RAG setting) but then you get more or less Relative Adjust if you want it or not.
Due to such behavior, it's no wonder that people can't see any rhythm and rhyme with their attempts to find settings that can be explained to others. The moment you turn the RAG/B/C module on, well how to put in? - ...you're by yourself reading the tea leaves. This is exactly why people get permanently confused when the change just on parameter slightly, but the (RA) system produces effects that you can't really connect to the source of your doing. This is not good! And since RA is activated be default it's the perfect recipe to confuse people.
Or did i overlook something, dear devs?!
To answer jacks question. Its not so much we are still discussing your stuff its more that we want to know how it works.:)
/cricket sounds
I m very surprised not even one person having developed this great FFB system has not even commented on things said here and in other threads. But I don't blame them, imagine the storm of questions coming their way when they decide to explain some things.
/cricket sounds
I m very surprised not even one person having developed this great FFB system has not even commented on things said here and in other threads. But I don't blame them, imagine the storm of questions coming their way when they decide to explain some things.
There has to be some reason. They've been responsive to just about every other type of question. There's a reason they aren't commenting on FFB. We may never know what that reason is, but I'm sure they think it's best for the game/community in some way.
There has to be some reason. They've been responsive to just about every other type of question. There's a reason they aren't commenting on FFB. We may never know what that reason is, but I'm sure they think it's best for the game/community in some way.
At that point, beside some small questions about RAs, there's not much else to find. Pretty much everything has been understood.
It took a year(!!), but it's done! :)
GrimeyDog
07-05-2016, 19:11
To answer jacks question. Its not so much we are still discussing your stuff its more that we want to know how it works.:)
/cricket sounds
I m very surprised not even one person having developed this great FFB system has not even commented on things said here and in other threads. But I don't blame them, imagine the storm of questions coming their way when they decide to explain some things.
There has to be some reason. They've been responsive to just about every other type of question. There's a reason they aren't commenting on FFB. We may never know what that reason is, but I'm sure they think it's best for the game/community in some way.
I agree with Each of these Statements... Also there has been sooo Much debate about the FFB system and Some Parts of the FFB system are still So full of contraversy that most would rather just keep to themselves once they find what works for them... Some one with a Different FFB taste will debate you Fiercely over a FFB that they dont ever plan to use because they dont like it for what ever the Reason... Shrugggs...To each their own thats what i say....the system is Made to be taylored to individual FFB tase.
I agree there should have been detailed instructions on how to use thr system... That would have put all the Contraversy to Rest.
As long as we understand what it is we are trying to achieve and the downsides of our choice of settings, we are all ok. Debating is mainly to understand the rational which leads to using the particular settings. Some people want heavy wheel (which will cover the small forces), others want a light wheel to feel as much of the small forces as possible. By now most people know which way they are leaning and so can choose that path.
tennenbaum
07-05-2016, 21:09
I agree with Each of these Statements... Also there has been sooo Much debate about the FFB system and Some Parts of the FFB system are still So full of contraversy that most would rather just keep to themselves once they find what works for them... Some one with a Different FFB taste will debate you Fiercely over a FFB that they dont ever plan to use because they dont like it for what ever the Reason... Shrugggs...To each their own thats what i say....the system is Made to be taylored to individual FFB tase.
I agree there should have been detailed instructions on how to use thr system... That would have put all the Contraversy to Rest.
if the devs are so afraid to give away details to the competitors (there are post that that indicate that)... they should! to them and us. ... because they can do better!
tennenbaum
07-05-2016, 21:36
At that point, beside some small questions about RAs, there's not much else to find. Pretty much everything has been understood.
It took a year(!!), but it's done! :)
EDIT: my statement as following here, might have been based on wrong assumptions i made, due to a possible flaw when i did my testings!
in this case i may disagree. as long as RA is a blackbox that nobody (!!) fligured out yet, i may move on, but with a bad aftertaste in my mouth. i smell a taste of arrogance at SMS. what about all the WMD members, do they have no clue, are they ignorant, or do they have a hidden agenda? i guess they paid for feeling important, not gaining much knowledge. claiming to be top notch, declaring other sims inferior... this is one of the most active threads around (count replies, not views), and they keep quit. i'm pissed! it takes them 10 minutes, to save us months and having much more fun with the game. here are some decent fans and contributors being pretty smart and patient, did outstanding work to "write" the inofficial FFB "manual", which is far advanced now from the old dated "official FFB guide'. show them some respect and answer their questions, for the sake of the bigger picture! i don't have a problem to be told that my theories are wrong, but i hate to be blindfolded. if i got it all wrong, speak up!! until than i'm gone.
EDIT: with my critic i don't mean JS! He is alwys of great help and great knowledge!
I do think that is why we have had zero help. Lets be honest guys if you developed what could be the best ffb system would you share? We could have much better sims if the tire companies shared actual the tire data. They have it but don't share the real information which is understandable. Are you going to tell your competitors how to get better? I don't think so. The descriptions for most of the stuff really isn't that bad now that I have a rough idea what the hell they were talking about.lol Would things have been easier with help absolutely. But think of all the fun you would have missed out on and having the opportunity to meet a great group of people from all over the world.
I agree with Each of these Statements... Also there has been sooo Much debate about the FFB system and Some Parts of the FFB system are still So full of contraversy that most would rather just keep to themselves once they find what works for them... Some one with a Different FFB taste will debate you Fiercely over a FFB that they dont ever plan to use because they dont like it for what ever the Reason... Shrugggs...To each their own thats what i say....the system is Made to be taylored to individual FFB tase.
I agree there should have been detailed instructions on how to use thr system... That would have put all the Contraversy to Rest.
Detailed instructions on what does what yes but on how to use the system no. Then it would be a one way for everyone system and you wouldn't have found your way of doing it. I honestly hope they don't change it for p cars 2 now.
in this case i may disagree. as long as RA is a blackbox that nobody (!!) fligured out yet, i may move on, but with a bad aftertaste in my mouth. i smell a taste of arrogance at SMS. what about all the WMD members, do they have no clue, are they ignorant, or do they have a hidden agenda? i guess they paid for feeling important, not gaining much knowledge. claiming to be top notch, declaring other sims inferior... this is one of the most active threads around (count replies, not views), and they keep quit. i'm pissed! it takes them 10 minutes, to save us months and having much more fun with the game. here are some decent fans and contributors being pretty smart and patient, did outstanding work to "write" the inofficial FFB "manual", which is far advanced now from the old dated "official FFB guide'. show them some respect and answer their questions, for the sake of the bigger picture! i don't have a problem to be told that my theories are wrong, but i hate to be blindfolded. if i got it all wrong, speak up!! until than i'm gone.
I'm not really throwing arrows here, but one of the reasons i mostly stopped updating the Baseline thread was that i didn't get official feedback. The main point of the thread was to help users, witch i think it did. But at some point, i somewhat lost interest in it and i figured i had invested enough time in it, even if it wasn't complete.
Sometimes, a pat on the back goes a long way. Maybe it's not this time.
But hey, i guess the best part of it is all the kind words. I don't remember anyone, here or in the baseline thread, saying those threads didn't help them. It was almost all 100% positive!
GrimeyDog
08-05-2016, 03:14
I'm not really throwing arrows here, but one of the reasons i mostly stopped updating the Baseline thread was that i didn't get official feedback. The main point of the thread was to help users, witch i think it did. But at some point, i somewhat lost interest in it and i figured i had invested enough time in it, even if it wasn't complete.
Sometimes, a pat on the back goes a long way. Maybe it's not this time.
But hey, i guess the best part of it is all the kind words. I don't remember anyone, here or in the baseline thread, saying those threads didn't help them. It was almost all 100% positive!
Agree 100%
He didn't actually explain how to do it using the hud just meantioned you could see it and had tips for setting drr and drf. So I tried it since you guys asked and it worked great! Much easier when you can actually see what youre doing with the numbers. I think it was 3 or for pages back. The fcm is good especially now that you can experiment with all the settings and see what they do. I like visual references. Using the hud for setting that or at least checking the numbers from the fcm should be in the beginning of grimeys forum so guys can find it easier. If you have any trouble ill give you a hand.
Thank you for your guide on ddr with the hud .
I had read somewhere ( in one of the officially unofficial threads ) that my wheel had 0.11 deadzone so thats what ive been running but with the hud to help i now have it at 0.04 and falloff at 4 clicks from zero .
Not sure how correct for my wheel or if the feeling is better but the snake has a very little wobble compared to the step from previously .
Thanks for all that has come from this thread and everyone who has helped .
tennenbaum
08-05-2016, 08:41
Detailed instructions on what does what yes but on how to use the system no. Then it would be a one way for everyone system and you wouldn't have found your way of doing it. I honestly hope they don't change it for p cars 2 now.
EDIT; i might have been wrong about my conclusions about RAG. so please consider my following statement possibly not valid.
i agree, but 5 lines of explanation that makes sense about the processing stages in FFB is not asked too much for. it's very inconsequent, and therefore annoying, to offer the user access to an "open" FFB system to tune to his own taste, but one or two elements that are elementary to really understand the FFB are black boxes that do not follow any logic, or a logic that is impossible to understand, therefore compromising the rest of the system.
it's against a petrol's head's and racer's nature to know every nut and bolt of his car, but to be told by someone "yeah, your steering feeling will change when you do that or that, but i can't tell you why the feeling changes when do this or this."
car's technical details are explained in depth by ringley for the car enthusiasts. that's great, so we know exactly why a car drives like this or this, following the rules of physics and dynamics. NOT GREAT at all is, when they cut the steering rack and build in a elastic sponge-bob-like-i-don't-know-what-i'm-doing-here part, and wrap it with gaffer tape... the heck it's my fricking steering wheel! the only thing i got to steer the car... some smart guys will say, so then just switch RA off. point taken, but then i ask, "so if you set the tire pressure and the sim computates rubbish, why are you tuning your car, why not just driving stock"?
disclosing info to the competitor?... now way. i'm not asking for the formula, i'm asking for some simple info what the slider does. who read my post about RA exaxtly knows why this time i'm asking for an explanation. the other stuff we could figure out on ourselves, but not RAG...
Lets be honest, if the competition wanted to decipher and copy PCars FFB system, it would be easy for people in the know to realise the process behind it, I don't think this is the reason they are not elaborating on it.
Reverse engineering complete ... Congratulations! Now you guys can get your past years memory erased and get paid :)
i agree, but 5 lines of explanation that makes sense about the processing stages in FFB is not asked too much for. it's very inconsequent, and therefore annoying, to offer the user access to an "open" FFB system to tune to his own taste, but one or two elements that are elementary to really understand the FFB are black boxes that do not follow any logic, or a logic that is impossible to understand, therefore compromising the rest of the system.
it's against a petrol's head's and racer's nature to know every nut and bolt of his car, but to be told by someone "yeah, your steering feeling will change when you do that or that, but i can't tell you why the feeling changes when do this or this."
car's technical details are explained in depth by ringley for the car enthusiasts. that's great, so we know exactly why a car drives like this or this, following the rules of physics and dynamics. NOT GREAT at all is, when they cut the steering rack and build in a elastic sponge-bob-like-i-don't-know-what-i'm-doing-here part, and wrap it with gaffer tape... the heck it's my fricking steering wheel! the only thing i got to steer the car... some smart guys will say, so then just switch RA off. point taken, but then i ask, "so if you set the tire pressure and the sim computates rubbish, why are you tuning your car, why not just driving stock"?
disclosing info to the competitor?... now way. i'm not asking for the formula, i'm asking for some simple info what the slider does. who read my post about RA exaxtly knows why this time i'm asking for an explanation. the other stuff we could figure out on ourselves, but not RAG...
I'm not saying you wrong about wanting an answer especially because this is one of the few forums were its basically all constructive. So yes it would be nice if sms at least gave us a hint or pointed us in the right direction. Like always with youre posts you got me thinking. I wonder if you are correct about the ra moving which is why its so hard to figure out. With the name relative that might make sense. Relative to what becomes the question. Kind of like the rest of the descriptions vague but they make more sense once you know what it does.
Thank you for your guide on ddr with the hud .
I had read somewhere ( in one of the officially unofficial threads ) that my wheel had 0.11 deadzone so thats what ive been running but with the hud to help i now have it at 0.04 and falloff at 4 clicks from zero .
Not sure how correct for my wheel or if the feeling is better but the snake has a very little wobble compared to the step from previously .
Thanks for all that has come from this thread and everyone who has helped .
Glad I could help. If there is no noticeable step off center and it doesn't wobble with the fa you should be good. The fa is my go to car for checking that. Big thanks to poirqc for pointing out you can see it in the hud. Setting it this way should get posted somewhere as it will probably save a lot of grief. Mine was supposed to be .13 and I ended up at .06 so that seems inline with what I found.
I am still following all your instructions went back to Jack's settings as a base and was able to make it light enough yet detailed as I like thanks to all of you.
I am still perplex at the 50 vs 100 steering though. I have to do some tests at low speed but without understeer I feel at 50 while more easily controllable I had to turn the wheel at an angle above the actual corners angles. Which didnt feel quite natural to me (thats with a default steering ratio on a road car). Another thing I just realized is that the default 80 Field of View is messing up the feel of the cars and also my brain's perception of FFB. If you haven't already (which I doubt) I suggest lowering this in the mid 60s to low 70s. Which gives a much more realistic perspective of the road so tail happy cars become a lot more controllable and a sense of speed is lost so it's easier to go faster.
just to add my grain of salt... I find it weird that none of you got feedback or encouragement from the developers. I understand how audio engineers would be able to figure out this whole system.
Field of view will definitely make things more difficult. The 50 vs 100 if you meant for sensitivity then yes most of us came to the conclusion somewhere around 60-70 worked well. Above that and the faster cars get twitchy. I highly recommend trying to use faster ratios for the steering the default ratios for most cars are really slow. For just about every car I'm starting at 9.0 and adjust from there. It wont take long to adjust to the faster ratios.
I must be going insane. I m fairly happy with FFB at this point but something must be going nuts. One session i m playing with SGain 1.00 and feel it's perfectly fine, and in another I bump SG to 1.15 and think it's better, only to go back to what it was and it might feel strong enough there as well... Can my wheel by switching power % without the control panel indicating it? The fan is mostly off, it only starts after some time and usually it works for 1-2 mins after I've finished driving.
Also, i m a little lost again. Using Jack's files my constant force FFB line goes to about 50-60% of its max with spikes reaching more into the 90s depending on track/turn. What is the setting to make it go higher without making the wheel much heavier? TF and SG move it up a bit, I think, but if i put too much i would go into clipping territory. The reason I m trying settings again is that I noticed that my FFB graph is going to it's highest constant force rather quickly, I m attempting to make it more progresssive.
I ll see what I can do about a video, I've never recorded anything before.
Jack Spade
08-05-2016, 16:27
@ tennenbaum
Tested RAG again and can confirm my previous finding, RAG at 1.0 is neutral independent of TF level.
Checked TF at 60, 75 and 100 (clipping) - RAB 0.1, RAC 2.0. To me itīs identical with RAG at 0 or 1.0.
At 0 the module is off, above 1.0 spices up, lower dulls.
Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain
at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable.
Bleed - values above 0.3 may cause strange FFB effects like short spikes or interruptions.
Probably a sudden torque level jump when RAG calculated torque doesnīt match absolute torque
bleeded in, so with faster bleed in time this isnīt noticeable. Perhaps you wonīt notice this
effect that much on lofi wheels.
I must be going insane. I m fairly happy with FFB at this point but something must be going nuts. One session i m playing with SGain 1.00 and feel it's perfectly fine, and in another I bump SG to 1.15 and think it's better, only to go back to what it was and it might feel strong enough there as well... Can my wheel by switching power % without the control panel indicating it? The fan is mostly off, it only starts after some time and usually it works for 1-2 mins after I've finished driving.
Also, i m a little lost again. Using Jack's files my constant force FFB line goes to about 50-60% of its max with spikes reaching more into the 90s depending on track/turn. What is the setting to make it go higher without making the wheel much heavier? TF and SG move it up a bit, I think, but if i put too much i would go into clipping territory. The reason I m trying settings again is that I noticed that my FFB graph is going to it's highest constant force rather quickly, I m attempting to make it more progresssive.
I ll see what I can do about a video, I've never recorded anything before.
Id switch the fan so it runs all the time. Ive had mine set like that since they changed it so we could. At least at that point you will know its not because of heat. What are the rest of the settings at?
I must be going insane. I m fairly happy with FFB at this point but something must be going nuts. One session i m playing with SGain 1.00 and feel it's perfectly fine, and in another I bump SG to 1.15 and think it's better, only to go back to what it was and it might feel strong enough there as well... Can my wheel by switching power % without the control panel indicating it? The fan is mostly off, it only starts after some time and usually it works for 1-2 mins after I've finished driving.
Also, i m a little lost again. Using Jack's files my constant force FFB line goes to about 50-60% of its max with spikes reaching more into the 90s depending on track/turn. What is the setting to make it go higher without making the wheel much heavier? TF and SG move it up a bit, I think, but if i put too much i would go into clipping territory. The reason I m trying settings again is that I noticed that my FFB graph is going to it's highest constant force rather quickly, I m attempting to make it more progresssive.
I ll see what I can do about a video, I've never recorded anything before.
You're not going crazy. It's difficult to remember the feel from session to session, especially when you're making small changes. The higher SG can feel better, but when you go back to the lower SG, you usually feel the subtle detail that was missing from the higher SG settings. Once you reach this point, it's basically about personal preference. You really have to spend a decent chunk of time with each setting, so you can settle into the feel of each and see compare how you're driving the car.
TF and SG would probably raise it, but raise SG too high, and you might start to lose dynamic range. You can raise TF, or you can also raise the in-car Master Scales. If you raise TF, you'll be affecting the in-car forces scales, but not the SoP scales, so you might get a slightly different feel than if you increased the in-car Master and SoP Master together. Also, you're impact forces (bumps, curbs, etc) should spike much higher than most of the other forces, because they are hard and sharp. Cornering and slip forces may not reach the same heights, but IMO, that's okay. There should be some degree of variance between the hard, sharp forces and the weaker transition forces.
Id switch the fan so it runs all the time. Ive had mine set like that since they changed it so we could. At least at that point you will know its not because of heat. What are the rest of the settings at?
I agree. Fan mods can be helpful. I have a USB fan mounted over the exhaust fan on the back cover of the CSW-v2. The USB fan has variable speed, when it's running at about 70% power, neither of the CSW-v2's standard fans ever click on, even after hours of continuous play.
Right now it s TF 75, RAG 1.10, RAB 0.08, RAC 0.95, SK 0.80, SR 0.44
I m also playing a little with DRR, although FCM says it should be 0.12 with those scoops, i m trying to see how it affects the forces. It doesn't feel bad, but i realise i m losing the low forces or something.
Where is that setting to have the fan on? My control panel has gone mental and I can't see any letters, it's all blank but I can adjust sliders.
Edit: Scratch that, I found it, button 8 + mode together to switch.
Right now it s TF 75, RAG 1.10, RAB 0.08, RAC 0.95, SK 0.80, SR 0.44
I m also playing a little with DRR, although FCM says it should be 0.12 with those scoops, i m trying to see how it affects the forces. It doesn't feel bad, but i realise i m losing the low forces or something.
Where is that setting to have the fan on? My control panel has gone mental and I can't see any letters, it's all blank but I can adjust sliders.
Edit: Scratch that, I found it, button 8 + mode together to switch.
If you use the hud to set it you will see the step in the snake. Fcm told me basically the same .13 which was way too high. Id try lowering sk and sr especially the sr it will help the lower forces. Have you tried my settings seeing we have the same wheel.
You're not going crazy. It's difficult to remember the feel from session to session, especially when you're making small changes. The higher SG can feel better, but when you go back to the lower SG, you usually feel the subtle detail that was missing from the higher SG settings. Once you reach this point, it's basically about personal preference. You really have to spend a decent chunk of time with each setting, so you can settle into the feel of each and see compare how you're driving the car.
TF and SG would probably raise it, but raise SG too high, and you might start to lose dynamic range. You can raise TF, or you can also raise the in-car Master Scales. If you raise TF, you'll be affecting the in-car forces scales, but not the SoP scales, so you might get a slightly different feel than if you increased the in-car Master and SoP Master together. Also, you're impact forces (bumps, curbs, etc) should spike much higher than most of the other forces, because they are hard and sharp. Cornering and slip forces may not reach the same heights, but IMO, that's okay. There should be some degree of variance between the hard, sharp forces and the weaker transition forces.
Especially the transition from sg 1.0 to sg 1.10 or so. I knew I liked it lower when I did it but thought it felt wrong because it wasn't as strong. It took a night or two of leaving it lower to realize I felt more of the small detail and it was actually better with sg at 1.0. But like you said it probably depends on preference.
Right now it s TF 75, RAG 1.10, RAB 0.08, RAC 0.95, SK 0.80, SR 0.44
I m also playing a little with DRR, although FCM says it should be 0.12 with those scoops, i m trying to see how it affects the forces. It doesn't feel bad, but i realise i m losing the low forces or something.
Where is that setting to have the fan on? My control panel has gone mental and I can't see any letters, it's all blank but I can adjust sliders.
Edit: Scratch that, I found it, button 8 + mode together to switch.
Lowering Scoop Reduction should bring weight to the wheel. Your slip/transition feel may not be as pronounced, but that's the trade off between saturation and subtle feel. The slip/transition feel will still be there, just at different levels. If you can still detect it at those levels, then it might be a good trade off for the additional weight, because it shouldn't disrupt your existing range, just bring a little more weight to the forces below the knee. I think this is why the slip/transition feel gets harder to detect. The lower the Reduction, the less of a strength difference there will be between the low and high range forces, making the fluctuations in feedback less pronounced.
Lowering Scoop Reduction should bring weight to the wheel. Your slip/transition feel may not be as pronounced, but that's the trade off between saturation and subtle feel. The slip/transition feel will still be there, just at different levels. If you can still detect it at those levels, then it might be a good trade off for the additional weight, because it shouldn't disrupt your existing range, just bring a little more weight to the forces below the knee. I think this is why the slip/transition feel gets harder to detect. The lower the Reduction, the less of a strength difference there will be between the low and high range forces, making the fluctuations in feedback less pronounced.
At least on the t300 the high sr seemed to really hurt the weaker forces along with the sk at .80. There definitely seemed to be a sweet spot with a lower sk which allowed a little room to play with the sr. But still not that as high as .44 that seems really high.
I will play with SK and SR then a little. Just to make clear, I am used to SG 1.00 but 1.10 didnt feel as strong as I used to remember it, probably because of scoops now that I think about it... god...
So here's my clip. It's not my best car, but since i see it a lot in this thread I used it along with the Watkins Short, everyone seems to be using this in the thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7lkPZdk3dU
I can shave another 0.80 secs from that time, but that's good enough to observe my FFB line at the moment.
I will play with SK and SR then a little. Just to make clear, I am used to SG 1.00 but 1.10 didnt feel as strong as I used to remember it, probably because of scoops now that I think about it... god...
So here's my clip. It's not my best car, but since i see it a lot in this thread I used it along with the Watkins Short, everyone seems to be using this in the thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7lkPZdk3dU
I can shave another 0.80 secs from that time, but that's good enough to observe my FFB line at the moment.
I think part of the problem is the rac rab rag settings your using. Your numbers are pretty close to mine but your ffb line definitely doesn't look as lively for lack of a better term. The rac youre using will give you a heavier wheel to start which makes you want to use a lower rag so the forces don't get too strong. I'm surprised your still using rab at .08 because it definitely makes the wheel grab especially if the car steps out or under hard braking.
Anybody see a/c is delayed till the end of august now? Here we go again with the delays.
Anybody see a/c is delayed till the end of august now? Here we go again with the delays.
I hadn't, but just the other day, I thought about the approaching release date and wondered if it would stick. Sucks, but this time I've got PCars. Last time--when I was waiting for PCars--all I had was Forza 5 to keep me busy. :ambivalence: That made every delay all the more painful. :)
tennenbaum
08-05-2016, 20:38
@ tennenbaum
Tested RAG again and can confirm my previous finding, RAG at 1.0 is neutral independent of TF level.
Checked TF at 60, 75 and 100 (clipping) - RAB 0.1, RAC 2.0. To me itīs identical with RAG at 0 or 1.0.
At 0 the module is off, above 1.0 spices up, lower dulls.
Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain
at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable.
Bleed - values above 0.3 may cause strange FFB effects like short spikes or interruptions.
Probably a sudden torque level jump when RAG calculated torque doesnīt match absolute torque
bleeded in, so with faster bleed in time this isnīt noticeable. Perhaps you wonīt notice this
effect that much on lofi wheels.
i agree with everything. i must have had a flaw in my test configuration. sorry if i caused confusion! thanks Jack (!) for sheding light on an issue that seemed important to me.
mates, don't wonder if you'll see me less active here on this great thread for a while... work, family, duties... i know you know... pCars can be adictive. great game, great community! ...great open minded exchange of thoughts, ideas and fun with you guys! Really!
You can't accurately tune deadzone removal to your wheel based on the HUD as your wheels deadzone just isn't reflected there - Whether you're running a CSW with a small deadzone or a G29 with a much larger deadzone, changes to DRR & DRF will produce exactly the same visual in the telemetry regardless.
gotdirt410sprintcar
08-05-2016, 23:25
You can't accurately tune deadzone removal to your wheel based on the HUD as your wheels deadzone just isn't reflected there - Whether you're running a CSW with a small deadzone or a G29 with a much larger deadzone, changes to DRR & DRF will produce exactly the same visual in the telemetry regardless.
You can tell how the FFB feels that your close or going to far that's how it felt to me
You can't accurately tune deadzone removal to your wheel based on the HUD as your wheels deadzone just isn't reflected there - Whether you're running a CSW with a small deadzone or a G29 with a much larger deadzone, changes to DRR & DRF will produce exactly the same visual in the telemetry regardless.
You can tell how the FFB feels that your close or going to far that's how it felt to me
Well, both are needed. FCM sheet gives you an idea of how large the deadzone can be. From there, you fune tune with your hands. Depending on your DRR / DRF & SK / SR combo, you could see the line move without having the wheel actually moving.
GrimeyDog
09-05-2016, 10:23
You can't accurately tune deadzone removal to your wheel based on the HUD as your wheels deadzone just isn't reflected there - Whether you're running a CSW with a small deadzone or a G29 with a much larger deadzone, changes to DRR & DRF will produce exactly the same visual in the telemetry regardless.
Agree... I have tried all these methods and for Me once i figured out what the settings do it just seems better to tune by feel once you have your Basic tweek fornula.
For Me IMO if there were a Math formula that Governed the tweek process SMS would have at the Very Least provided that formula for us.
GrimeyDog
09-05-2016, 12:31
@ tennenbaum
Tested RAG again and can confirm my previous finding, RAG at 1.0 is neutral independent of TF level.
Checked TF at 60, 75 and 100 (clipping) - RAB 0.1, RAC 2.0. To me itīs identical with RAG at 0 or 1.0.
At 0 the module is off, above 1.0 spices up, lower dulls.
Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain
at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable.
Bleed - values above 0.3 may cause strange FFB effects like short spikes or interruptions.
Probably a sudden torque level jump when RAG calculated torque doesnīt match absolute torque
bleeded in, so with faster bleed in time this isnīt noticeable. Perhaps you wonīt notice this
effect that much on lofi wheels.
This is why i don't understand using settings Higher than 100/1.00... With settings that are 100/1.00 The Feel and Power is there... IMO using settings Ex:RAG/ Steering Gain at 101/1.01 + seems that you are over driving 1 part of the FFB system to compensate for under utilizing other parts of the FFB system... The Settings are Not Balanced some where in the FFB Chain.
If RAG 1.0 is Neutral and Independent of TF and RAC 1.0 is the Limiter and works with TF as expected... Which I 100% agree with then using RAG 101+ Makes even Less Sense if the other settings are Balanced Correctly.
Ive seen some Tweeks with RAG 145+:confused: IMO this is very indicative that the different parts of the FFB System is Not being used in a Balanced way and will Not Give clear detailed FFB output... This is JMO:yes:
Qoute from JS post --->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain
at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement:yes:
For Me IMO if there were a Math formula that Governed the tweek process SMS would have at the Very Least provided that formula for us.
On the contrary, it's impossible for such math formulas to NOT exist. Physics programming is math-based, working with values most of the time, unless some values need to be predicted, which I doubt is the case with the FFB.
RAG is not independent of TF. RAG works with what TF is feeding it. What you read somewhere above only meant that RAG at 1.00 is neutral and will not alter whatever forces TF is producing. The forces may be balanced, RAG will not change that balance. But it will accentuate the forces that hit the RAC limiter, also described as spicing up the FFB. Yes it is "fake" noise, but some people want that liveliness.
Also good thing that you agree with Andrew Weber's points, since he is the physics expert in the SMS team ;)
GrimeyDog
09-05-2016, 14:30
On the contrary, it's impossible for such math formulas to NOT exist. Physics programming is math-based, working with values most of the time, unless some values need to be predicted, which I doubt is the case with the FFB.
RAG is not independent of TF. RAG works with what TF is feeding it. What you read somewhere above only meant that RAG at 1.00 is neutral and will not alter whatever forces TF is producing. The forces may be balanced, RAG will not change that balance. But it will accentuate the forces that hit the RAC limiter, also described as spicing up the FFB. Yes it is "fake" noise, but some people want that liveliness.
Also good thing that you agree with Andrew Weber's points, since he is the physics expert in the SMS team ;)
Yes the physics are indeed Math Based Formulas.. Agree 100% with that:yes: But My point is the Physics are Already Pre-Programed into the Game:yes: Therefore i deem it Not Necessary to use Math Formulas to Try to Bring out the Feel of the Physics that are Already Pre-Programmed into the Game... Its like doing Physics on top of Physics.... in any event i will agree that because there are Many different wheels being used you can use a Formula to get the wheel Closer to the Feel you are Looking for but the end Result is always the same... You Must Tweek and Fine Tune By Feel.
If there were a Perfect Formula to Govern FFB Tweeking IMO that formula to tweek all wheels would have been Given to us or Pre-Programed into the Game because Pcar doe's Recognize and Differentiate one wheel from another.
Every Tweek just Represents How the Maker of said Tweek thinks that a Given Car should Feel... Therefore there is No Right/Wrong Tweek formula... Every Tweek Must be Fine Tuned to users Wheel used and Taste by Feel/Trial and Error.
With Settings 100/1.00 and Below the FFB Power and Feel is there... If the Power and Feel were Lacking with 100/1.00 and Below settings i would agree that Higher #'s would be Needed... But because the FFB Power and Feel is there IMO when you have to use some settings 101/1.01+ then something in the FFB Chain is Not being Balanced properly which causes you to overdrive 1 part of the System to compensate for the other parts being under used/out of balance.
There is No Right or wrong... its all about what works and Feels Good to the End user.
The Statement By Andrew Weber Physics designer Makes sooo Much sense How Could you Not agree with that:yes: So yes it Makes More sense to Me to Balance TF, RAG at 1.00 Spice them up with RAC combined with the in Car Masters while Keeping the RAG/TF 1.00 Neutral Balance intact and if Needed Reduce TF to get desired wheel weight while still preserving the RAG 100 Neutral Limit/Balance....Question What Good is it to Lower TF/ In Car Masters but Boost it back up with RAG/SG 101+???... all the Power and Feel is there No Need to go above 101/1.01... JMO its all about Balance.
Edit: I had No Idea Who Andrew Weber was or that He is Pcars Physics programmer... The Statement just Makes Total Sense:yes:
Yes the physics are indeed Math Based Formulas.. Agree 100% with that:yes: But My point is the Physics are Allready Pre-Programmed into the Game:yes: Therefore i deem it Not Necissary to use Math Formulas to Try to Bring out the Feel of the Physics that are Allready Pre-Programmed into the Game... Its like doing Physics ontop of Physics.... in any event i will agree that because there are Many different wheels being used you can use a Formula to get the wheel Closer to the Feel you are Looking for but the end Result is always the same... You Must Tweek and Fine Tune By Feel.
If there were a Perfect Formula to Govern FFB Tweeking IMO that formula to tweek all wheels would have been Given to us or Pre-Programmed into the Game because Pcar doe's Recognize and Differentiate one wheel from another.
Every Tweek just Represents How the Maker of said Tweek thinks that a Given Car should Feel... Therefore there is No Right/Wrong Tweek formula... Every Tweek Must be Fine Tuned to users Wheel used and Taste by Feel/Trial and Error.
With Settings 100/1.00 and Below the FFB Power and Feel is there... If the Power and Feel were Lacking with 100/1.00 and Below settings i would agree that Higher #'s would be Needed... But because the FFB Power and Feel is there IMO when you have to use some settings 101/1.01+ then something in the FFB Chain is Not being Balanced properly which causes you to overdrive 1 part of the System to compensate for the other parts being under used/out of balance.
There is No Right or wrong... its all about what works and Feels Good to the End user.
The Statement By Andrew Weber Physics designer Makes sooo Much sense How Could you Not agree with that:yes: So yes it Makes More sense to Me to Balance TF, RAG at 1.00 Spice them up with RAC combined with the in Car Masters while Keeping the RAG/TF 1.00 Neutral Balance intact and if Needed Reduce TF to get desired wheel weight while still preserving the RAG 100 Neutral Limit/Balance....Question What Good is it to Lower TF/ In Car Masters but Boost it back up with RAG/SG 101+???... all the Power and Feel is there No Need to go above 101/1.01... JMO its all about Balance.
Edit: I had No Idea Who Andrew Weber was or that He is Pcars Physics programer... The Statement just Makes Total Sence:yes:
I can't remember where I copied this from, but the information came from a guide posted by WMD Member Timo Koskela.
Master Sccale - A value that will multiply the individual scales. Useful tip: Using a low master scale and correspondingly making the individual scales higher will make the FFB feel less "rattly", but at the same time you will lose a bit of sharpness, so there is a golden middle point somewhere. Using a high Master scale and low individual scales is another option, but you will get a lot of rattling/spikes on the FFB. On some cars/tires this can be a useful trick though.
You're right. It is a balancing game. Boosting RAG is just another method of balancing the interaction of forces. 100=100 and 1.0=1.0 is the same as 75+25=100 and 1.0=0.85+0.15. Both equations are balanced. The FFB system is based on math, so it really doesn't matter which end you work with/boost, as long as you balance the equation in the end.
GrimeyDog
09-05-2016, 21:19
I can't remember where I copied this from, but the information came from a guide posted by WMD Member Timo Koskela.
"Master Sccale - A value that will multiply the individual scales. Useful tip: Using a low master scale and correspondingly making the individual scales higher will make the FFB feel less "rattly", but at the same time you will lose a bit of sharpness, so there is a golden middle point somewhere. Using a high Master scale and low individual scales is another option, but you will get a lot of rattling/spikes on the FFB. On some cars/tires this can be a useful trick though."
You're right. It is a balancing game. Boosting RAG is just another method of balancing the interaction of forces. 100=100 and 1.0=1.0 is the same as 75+25=100 and 1.0=0.85+0.15. Both equations are balanced. The FFB system is based on math, so it really doesn't matter which end you work with/boost, as long as you balance the equation in the end.
Yes Haiden!!! yes:yes: Agree 1000%:yes::yes::yes: your post just Made My day no Funny Bizzz though:no: LOL... That's exactly what i have been trying to say but i don't have tennenbaums finesse with words... I have always stated that High masters give a crisper Sharper FFB feel... For Me that Crisper sharper FFB feel is what i prefer...its all about balance and i agree that lowering the TF helps with wheel weight management and will also tone down the FFB forces a tad bit...i have not had a chance to amend My PDF to include lowering TF to help reduce wheel weight and tone down FFB forces but i will as soon as time permits... thought i had a free weekend and had planned to amend the PDF and front page but i forgot about Mothers day:p
Edit: I had to read the post 3x before i realized we agree...I'm going to play Lotto!!!
[QUOTE=skoader;1275489]You can't accurately tune deadzone removal to your wheel based on the HUD as your wheels deadzone just isn't reflected there - Whether you're running a CSW with a small deadzone or a G29 with a much larger deadzone, changes to DRR & DRF will produce exactly the same visual in the telemetry regardless.[/QUOT If t
I do agree I fudged up the drr part being in a hurry to get the testing done. It worked out that the way I was testing took the step out because of what I was doing. But you definitely can use it to set drf. If its off you will have step where drr is in the snake. So I agree they will look the same if they are set correctly because it will be a smooth shape regardless of what your drr/drf was set at. But a larger drr value will definitely make a larger step in the snake. Obviously the drf value has to be low/wrong so it doesn't try to connect the step together so you can see it. I had drf set at .001 for testing.
gotdirt410sprintcar
10-05-2016, 03:29
Anybody see a/c is delayed till the end of august now? Here we go again with the delays.
Yeah it will be for the better i can wait smooth running game with no bugs,
I do agree I fudged up the drr part being in a hurry to get the testing done. It worked out that the way I was testing took the step out because of what I was doing. But you definitely can use it to set drf. If its off you will have step where drr is in the snake. So I agree they will look the same if they are set correctly because it will be a smooth shape regardless of what your drr/drf was set at. But a larger drr value will definitely make a larger step in the snake. Obviously the drf value has to be low/wrong so it doesn't try to connect the step together so you can see it. I had drf set at .001 for testing.
Indeed, if you can see a step in the telemetry then your falloff is way too hard and deadzone removal is boosting those low forces too suddenly. The higher your DRR, the higher the step will be as you jump from zero force almost straight up to your deadzone removal range. The falloff parameter smooths out that transition from zero force and in my opinion is best set by feel. Generally speaking, I think there is room for a much softer falloff than the 0.01 - 0.02 range that is typically used, especially if your wheel has a large deadzone.
In regard to DRR, most wheels need some level of deadzone so you don't want to remove it entirely but with the right falloff setting you shouldn't have to stray too far from the numbers derived from either wheelcheck or FCM, assuming you have Steering Gain set to 1.0. (Higher SG settings will scale up your deadzone removal)
Cheers mate.
Jack Spade
10-05-2016, 06:14
Master Sccale - A value that will multiply the individual scales. Useful tip: Using a low master scale and correspondingly making the individual scales higher will make the FFB feel less "rattly", but at the same time you will lose a bit of sharpness, so there is a golden middle point somewhere. Using a high Master scale and low individual scales is another option, but you will get a lot of rattling/spikes on the FFB. On some cars/tires this can be a useful trick though.
This contradicts the multiplier principle, statement is based on personal opinion not on facts, IIRC this is from the good old WMD days.
2 * 5=10 -- 5 * 2=10 -- 2.5 * 4=10 -- 8 * 1.25*=10 ......the result always is the same, so how can be more "rattle" with any of the.... "10"....:confused:
Disbelievers note, this is a math example not a FFB setting.
GrimeyDog
10-05-2016, 07:42
This contradicts the multiplier principle, statement is based on personal opinion not on facts, IIRC this is from the good old WMD days.
2 * 5=10 -- 5 * 2=10 -- 2.5 * 4=10 -- 8 * 1.25*=10 ......the result always is the same, so how can be more "rattle" with any of the.... "10"....:confused:
Disbelievers note, this is a math example not a FFB setting.
LOL... i Knew it was too Good.to be True:stupid: LOL
But It seems that Every Tweek Formula Yes even yours is Based on opinion:yes:... I have Never seen any Official word from SMS that Validates any Tweek Formula or theory.
Its Been over a year still No FFB guide and No Official SMS FFB blue print....I wonder if All their Computers Crashed why they Havent posted anything...Hmmm... I dunno ... Im posting this from My phone so My best guess is SMS can post if they wanted to Validate a Particular theory or Tweek Methode but it seems they Choose Not to Validate any 1 tweek methode or theory... Shame on SMS just left every 1 out to Hang and dry ....LMAO
You cant fit Square pegs into Round Holes but you can fit round pegs in Square Holes:confused: one way equation:yes:
There seem to be Many ways to set Pcars FFB... Some use Scoops some dont, some use the Relative system Some Dont, Some still trying the Soft Clip/Half Clip, High Masters Low Masters ETC...yup im pretty sure that every one cant be wrong.
Just the Idea that there is only 1 way to set the FFB is Wrong... That Idea alone says SMS Screwed up!!! if there were only 1 way why did they leave the FFB system open to Free Choice and Tweeking:confused:
Hmmm Maybe they Never Stepped up to Back any 1 Not even ??? with a official SMS Statement....because that would Kill the open Create your FFB Feel concept:confused:
Jack Spade
10-05-2016, 09:00
LOL... i Knew it was too Good.to be True:stupid: LOL
But It seems that Every Tweek Formula Yes even yours is Based on opinion:yes:... I have Never seen any Official word from SMS that Validates any Tweek Formula or theory.
Its Been over a year still No FFB guide and No Official SMS FFB blue print....I wonder if All their Computers Crashed why they Havent posted anything...Hmmm... I dunno ... Im posting this from My phone so My best guess is SMS can post if they wanted to Validate a Particular theory or Tweek Methode but it seems they Choose Not to Validate any 1 tweek methode or theory... Shame on SMS just left every 1 out to Hang and dry ....LMAO
You cant fit Square pegs into Round Holes but you can fit round pegs in Square Holes:confused: one way equation:yes:
There seem to be Many ways to set Pcars FFB... Some use Scoops some dont, some use the Relative system Some Dont, Some still trying the Soft Clip/Half Clip, High Masters Low Masters ETC...yup im pretty sure that every one cant be wrong.
Just the Idea that there is only 1 way to set the FFB is Wrong... That Idea alone says SMS Screwed up!!! if there were only 1 way why did they leave the FFB system open to Free Choice and Tweeking:confused:
Hmmm Maybe they Never Stepped up to Back any 1 Not even ??? with a official SMS Statement....because that would Kill the open Create your FFB Feel concept:confused:
Youīre wrong, yours most definitely is, mine isnīt. Iīm trying to follow physically imperative the system dictates before personal opinion comes into play, one of
the reasons settings basically work for all cars, all wheels on all platforms. Also, you will never witness an official SMS statement in this forum about what kind
of FFB tweaks, setting, formula or blue print in their opinion is right or correct approach, over here itīs known as political correctness, itīs useless youīre always
asking for it.
GrimeyDog
10-05-2016, 10:43
Youīre wrong, yours most definitely is, mine isnīt. Iīm trying to follow physically imperative the system dictates before personal opinion comes into play, one of
the reasons settings basically work for all cars, all wheels on all platforms. Also, you will never witness an official SMS statement in this forum about what kind
of FFB tweaks, setting, formula or blue print in their opinion is right or correct approach, over here itīs known as political correctness, itīs useless youīre always
asking for it.
I agree 100% there will Never be a FFB Blue print...
Your Tweek settings Repersent Your opinion of what FFB is Supposed to Feel like... Very simple...Maybe i will Change My Bio to Read SMS has asked Me to Create FFB files also:p you have No proof that your theory/Methode/ Math Formula is Based on any kind of Fact:no:
Your belief that you have the 1 True FFB formula in fact States that SMS is Wrong and the FFB system is Not open for users to Create a FFB feel that is Right for them:rolleyes: Not even you have facts to Validate your theory... IMO SMS should step up on your behalf to prove you Right.. But i bet they will Not:no:
You always state your way as Fact and every thing else is wrong...Note the Comments are in every post that uses a formula that is other and different than yours... your Opressive Comments are there for all to see...Why work sooo Hard to opress New ways or ideas on how the FFB can be Tweeked:confused: People are waking up they realize your way is Not the only way...Congrats you had your 15min of fame and helped Many get on there way to Good FFB... you did a Great thing:yes: Question How far would Human kind have progressed if we Never explored New ways and Ideas... There are always People who say it wont work but there are always people who prove them wrong and Show New ways and Ideas Do and Can Work:yes:... Who would ever belive that the internet would be Manifested to reality? Cell Phones were just the things on Star Treck Capatain Kirk called star Fleet on...New Ways Ideas = Progress... Sureley you dont think Pcars FFB has progressed from your ideas alone:confused:
The Truth always stands on its Own... its a open FFB system with Many ways to work with it... as long as there is No Major Clipping and feels Good to the user its Good.
You Have No Facts to Validate your Tweek or anything you say about the FFB system... I could Have bought into WMD and had a WMD logo on My Forum Tag also... But that would Not Mean i knew anything More or had more influence or Knowledge about the FFB system than any 1 else... It would just Mean i was a beta tester.:indecisiveness:
Pcars is a Game who does Physics calculations to bring out the physics in a Game that the Physics are already Pre programmed into:confused:... Thats Redundent IMO
Im just Happy Pcars has become the Great Game that it was promised to be and every 1 seems to be finding their way and FFB sweet spot:yes:
My whole point JS is Stop Telling people they are wrong...Its a open FFB system lets all Learn it and explore it together..... 1+1+1+1= 4.... 2+2= 4....3+1=4....1+1+2 =4
Get the point? in a math based system there are Many ways to reach the same end Result:yes:
There Is No Right there is No wrong... its all about the end Result.
Indeed, if you can see a step in the telemetry then your falloff is way too hard and deadzone removal is boosting those low forces too suddenly. The higher your DRR, the higher the step will be as you jump from zero force almost straight up to your deadzone removal range. The falloff parameter smooths out that transition from zero force and in my opinion is best set by feel. Generally speaking, I think there is room for a much softer falloff than the 0.01 - 0.02 range that is typically used, especially if your wheel has a large deadzone.
In regard to DRR, most wheels need some level of deadzone so you don't want to remove it entirely but with the right falloff setting you shouldn't have to stray too far from the numbers derived from either wheelcheck or FCM, assuming you have Steering Gain set to 1.0. (Higher SG settings will scale up your deadzone removal)
Cheers mate.
I do agree test drive are needed. But it is helpful to see what you are doing. If you still have a step you need to adjust drf some. By softer do you mean less drf?
I agree 100% there will Never be a FFB Blue print...
Your Tweek settings Repersent Your opinion of what FFB is Supposed to Feel like... Very simple...Maybe i will Change My Bio to Read SMS has asked Me to Create FFB files also:p you have No proof that your theory/Methode/ Math Formula is Based on any kind of Fact:no:
Your belief that you have the 1 True FFB formula in fact States that SMS is Wrong and the FFB system is Not open for users to Create a FFB feel that is Right for them:rolleyes: Not even you have facts to Validate your theory... IMO SMS should step up on your behalf to prove you Right.. But i bet they will Not:no:
You always state your way as Fact and every thing else is wrong...Note the Comments are in every post that uses a formula that is other and different than yours... your Opressive Comments are there for all to see...Why work sooo Hard to opress New ways or ideas on how the FFB can be Tweeked:confused: People are waking up they realize your way is Not the only way...Congrats you had your 15min of fame and helped Many get on there way to Good FFB... you did a Great thing:yes: Question How far would Human kind have progressed if we Never explored New ways and Ideas... There are always People who say it wont work but there are always people who prove them wrong and Show New ways and Ideas Do and Can Work:yes:... Who would ever belive that the internet would be Manifested to reality? Cell Phones were just the things on Star Treck Capatain Kirk called star Fleet on...New Ways Ideas = Progress... Sureley you dont think Pcars FFB has progressed from your ideas alone:confused:
The Truth always stands on its Own... its a open FFB system with Many ways to work with it... as long as there is No Major Clipping and feels Good to the user its Good.
You Have No Facts to Validate your Tweek or anything you say about the FFB system... I could Have bought into WMD and had a WMD logo on My Forum Tag also... But that would Not Mean i knew anything More or had more influence or Knowledge about the FFB system than any 1 else... It would just Mean i was a beta tester.:indecisiveness:
Pcars is a Game who does Physics calculations to bring out the physics in a Game that the Physics are already Pre programmed into:confused:... Thats Redundent IMO
Im just Happy Pcars has become the Great Game that it was promised to be and every 1 seems to be finding their way and FFB sweet spot:yes:
My whole point JS is Stop Telling people they are wrong...Its a open FFB system lets all Learn it and explore it together..... 1+1+1+1= 4.... 2+2= 4....3+1=4....1+1+2 =4
Get the point? in a math based system there are Many ways to reach the same end Result:yes:
There Is No Right there is No wrong... its all about the end Result.
Try and keep the discussion impersonal, respectful and based on facts guys.
I suggest to make two FFB set-ups that are identical in FFB configuration, except for the Master Scale being high in one configuration and low in the other, and the individual force parameter values the opposite. The product of master scale and individual force values should be the same in both configurations, though.
These two configurations are then tested, preferably by several people, and judged on whether the FFB is different for both configurations or not.
Since there could be hidden factors in this issue, it's best to test this in practice than to rely on theoretical considerations only, and prove whether the theory is correct or not.
This contradicts the multiplier principle, statement is based on personal opinion not on facts, IIRC this is from the good old WMD days.
2 * 5=10 -- 5 * 2=10 -- 2.5 * 4=10 -- 8 * 1.25*=10 ......the result always is the same, so how can be more "rattle" with any of the.... "10"....:confused:
Disbelievers note, this is a math example not a FFB setting.
Ha! Good point. I didn't think of that. I do see differences between FF/TF balances, but TF and the Master Scales should produce the same results.
I agree 100% there will Never be a FFB Blue print...
Your Tweek settings Repersent Your opinion of what FFB is Supposed to Feel like... Very simple...Maybe i will Change My Bio to Read SMS has asked Me to Create FFB files also:p you have No proof that your theory/Methode/ Math Formula is Based on any kind of Fact:no:
Your belief that you have the 1 True FFB formula in fact States that SMS is Wrong and the FFB system is Not open for users to Create a FFB feel that is Right for them:rolleyes: Not even you have facts to Validate your theory... IMO SMS should step up on your behalf to prove you Right.. But i bet they will Not:no:
You always state your way as Fact and every thing else is wrong...Note the Comments are in every post that uses a formula that is other and different than yours... your Opressive Comments are there for all to see...Why work sooo Hard to opress New ways or ideas on how the FFB can be Tweeked:confused: People are waking up they realize your way is Not the only way...Congrats you had your 15min of fame and helped Many get on there way to Good FFB... you did a Great thing:yes: Question How far would Human kind have progressed if we Never explored New ways and Ideas... There are always People who say it wont work but there are always people who prove them wrong and Show New ways and Ideas Do and Can Work:yes:... Who would ever belive that the internet would be Manifested to reality? Cell Phones were just the things on Star Treck Capatain Kirk called star Fleet on...New Ways Ideas = Progress... Sureley you dont think Pcars FFB has progressed from your ideas alone:confused:
The Truth always stands on its Own... its a open FFB system with Many ways to work with it... as long as there is No Major Clipping and feels Good to the user its Good.
You Have No Facts to Validate your Tweek or anything you say about the FFB system... I could Have bought into WMD and had a WMD logo on My Forum Tag also... But that would Not Mean i knew anything More or had more influence or Knowledge about the FFB system than any 1 else... It would just Mean i was a beta tester.:indecisiveness:
Pcars is a Game who does Physics calculations to bring out the physics in a Game that the Physics are already Pre programmed into:confused:... Thats Redundent IMO
Im just Happy Pcars has become the Great Game that it was promised to be and every 1 seems to be finding their way and FFB sweet spot:yes:
My whole point JS is Stop Telling people they are wrong...Its a open FFB system lets all Learn it and explore it together..... 1+1+1+1= 4.... 2+2= 4....3+1=4....1+1+2 =4
Get the point? in a math based system there are Many ways to reach the same end Result:yes:
There Is No Right there is No wrong... its all about the end Result.
232912
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Try and keep the discussion impersonal, respectful and based on facts guysThank you :)
GrimeyDog
10-05-2016, 13:09
Try and keep the discussion impersonal, respectful and based on facts guys.
I suggest to make two FFB set-ups that are identical in FFB configuration, except for the Master Scale being high in one configuration and low in the other, and the individual force parameter values the opposite. The product of master scale and individual force values should be the same in both configurations, though.
These two configurations are then tested, preferably by several people, and judged on whether the FFB is different for both configurations or not.
Since there could be hidden factors in this issue, it's best to test this in practice than to rely on theoretical considerations only, and prove whether the theory is correct or not.
I agree Remco... Im Not arguing or Hostile... There are Many factors to consider and All i ask is that JS Stops the Opression by constantly posting that setting dont work.. Let the people Try and Test they will figure for themselves what they like whats right whats wrong.
Without Official SMS confirmation No one Has any Fact or Proof that the Next way is wrong. there is only personal theory and belief. He has to stop discouraging people from New ways or ideas other than his.
I Remember tyring to join forces with JS to try and learn to understand his ways/Tweek....when i didnt agree or Questioned the Validity of his Methode It was JS him self that told me if i didnt like his ways to start My Own thread... So thats what i did:yes: I believe he is Right in his own way because that what he likes it works for him... Allow others the same courtesy... in here there is No right wrong its only about helping people find what feels good to them...
I agree Remco... Im Not arguing or Hostile... There are Many factors to consider and All i ask is that JS Stops the Opression by constantly posting that setting dont work.. Let the people Try and Test they will figure for themselves what they like whats right whats wrong.
Without Official SMS confirmation No one Has any Fact or Proof that the Next way is wrong. there is only personal theory and belief. He has to stop discouraging people from New ways or ideas other than his.
I Remember tyring to join forces with JS to try and learn to understand his ways/Tweek....when i didnt agree or Questioned the Validity of his Methode It was JS him self that told me if i didnt like his ways to start My Own thread... So thats what i did:yes: I believe he is Right in his own way because that what he likes it works for him... Allow others the same courtesy... in here there is No right wrong its only about helping people find what feels good to them...
Just because SMS doesn't publish an official guide, doesn't mean that everyone's statements are based on opinion. If you've got sound data to backup/support your statement, then it's not really an opinion. At the very least, it's an opinion supported by factual evidence, which is stronger than an opinion with no supporting data.
Personally, I've never seen Jack say his settings are the best or that someone else's settings are wrong. I have seen him comment/correct statements made about FFB definitions and functions. The later is surely welcome. Clarity is important for everyone. The end result--how you choose to configure your settings--is a personal choice, but terms, definitions, and functionality should be universal.
Jack Spade
10-05-2016, 16:21
Just because SMS doesn't publish an official guide, doesn't mean that everyone's statements are based on opinion. If you've got sound data to backup/support your statement, then it's not really an opinion. At the very least, it's an opinion supported by factual evidence, which is stronger than an opinion with no supporting data.
Personally, I've never seen Jack say his settings are the best or that someone else's settings are wrong. I have seen him comment/correct statements made about FFB definitions and functions. The later is surely welcome. Clarity is important for everyone. The end result--how you choose to configure your settings--is a personal choice, but terms, definitions, and functionality should be universal.
In addition to that,
the fact that Iīm posting 9 different sets of tweaker files should make clear to everybody that Iīm not addicted
to -- "this is the one and only correct and world best setting for everybody"-- . There was lots of polemic of a certain
group of people in WMD forum against the Sop stuff, unfortunately this negative reputation still is on some peopleīs
mind, instead of that I gave them a fair opportunity to see for themselves how it works in a balanced mix and itīs
no surprise to me many, many have decided for it.
Of course itīs based of how I read and interpret the system with itīs multipliers, negative Fz, the RAG module etc.
lancashirelad
10-05-2016, 17:25
1 year on and still going round in circles. I gave up messing with the ff a while ago, and while I appreciate all the time people have put into this topic I really hope pc2 doesn't follow the same path.Imo the over complicated system detracts everyone from just enjoying what a great game project cars has turned out to be. Stop playing with the settings and race. I spent many wasted hours messing that I'll never get back. Even with it's faults it's still the best racing game I've ever played. ( and at 50 next year I've played a lot).
GrimeyDog
10-05-2016, 19:21
Just because SMS doesn't publish an official guide, doesn't mean that everyone's statements are based on opinion. If you've got sound data to backup/support your statement, then it's not really an opinion. At the very least, it's an opinion supported by factual evidence, which is stronger than an opinion with no supporting data.
Personally, I've never seen Jack say his settings are the best or that someone else's settings are wrong. I have seen him comment/correct statements made about FFB definitions and functions. The later is surely welcome. Clarity is important for everyone. The end result--how you choose to configure your settings--is a personal choice, but terms, definitions, and functionality should be universal.
Read My post again... I did not say anything about best or better settings... I clearly stated that He should "stop discouraging people from trying new ways always stating that the next persons settings wont work"
SMS created a open FFB system and the very suggestion that there is only 1 way to go about using the system strongly implies that the FFB system is not truly open for people to create their own FFB feel the way they like it...Im sure SMS knew what they were and are doing the FFB has come a long way and is better than ever:yes: its the best FFB on console to date:applause: maybe even P.C also but i can only speak for the platforms i use...PS4/XB1.
I won't say any 1 is wrong but if they want to be right they should follow me:indecisiveness: LOL!!!
also agree that "The end result--how you choose to configure your settings--is a personal choice, but terms, definitions, and functionality should be universal."
IMO we all have sound data based on individual testing...But because there has never been a official SMS FFB Guide Published the only True "Fact" is All data is based on personal opinion and theory.
I have said my piece and consider the matter Finished... thanx for your time...lets get back to talking FFB and comparing notes:yes:
any further/future comments about this matter can be discussed on the jack spade thread and i will gladly join in if needed over there:encouragement:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=891198&viewfull=1#post891198
I think bold font should be banned ;)
Jezza819
10-05-2016, 20:43
I think the bottom line should be that you want the best feeling car & wheel combination you can have and however you achieve that is perfectly fine. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong.
Read My post again... I did not say anything about best or better settings...
See below. I'm sure you can see how I got confused.
Your belief that you have the 1 True FFB formula in fact States that SMS is Wrong and the FFB system is Not open for users to Create a FFB feel that is Right for them:rolleyes: Not even you have facts to Validate your theory... IMO SMS should step up on your behalf to prove you Right.. But i bet they will Not:no:
You always state your way as Fact and every thing else is wrong...Note the Comments are in every post that uses a formula that is other and different than yours...
Or did I? :confused: :p
I think the bottom line should be that you want the best feeling car & wheel combination you can have and however you achieve that is perfectly fine. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong.
I couldn't agree more. However someone achieves their feel is totally up to them. That doesn't mean they can redefine functions and terms, though. And I honestly think that's what most of the disagreements are about. Personally, I could care less what settings other people use. My only concern is that things are explained accurately, so that the guy (or girl) that comes late to the discussion can actually make sense of the information in the thread, and it doesn't seem like a confusing tome of double speak. Or worse, they aren't attempting something, based on a incorrect descriptions and wondering why they aren't getting the results they're shooting for.
That's enough, all of you
Try and keep the discussion impersonal, respectful and based on facts guys
This constant to-and-fro bickering is to stop, now.
Ok guys lets get back on track here and start being productive again. Lets not forget the reason this forum has been so good for so long.:)
...By softer do you mean less drf?
More, the higher the DRF setting the softer the falloff.
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 00:43
https://youtu.be/W-4OeO_KImE
Oulton Park Fosters Not Bad for a Stock Scion FRB with the same FFB i use in every car.
gotdirt410sprintcar
11-05-2016, 03:08
You guys just got cluck!!! lol
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 03:15
TF 75_RAC 75 FFB test C7R corvette at Oulton Park Fosters
https://youtu.be/7NvQCJzAtXU
TF 75_RAC 75 FFB test Gt3 Ruf at Watkins short
https://youtu.be/QJoo1cfnq18
TF 75 _RAC 75 i did not think i was going to like TF that low at 75...But i must say it provides a really nice reduction in wheel weight with just the right balance of FFB effects feel While Still having Sharp Crisp FFB Effects just a reduced Volume...the subtle feel did not increase but is better balanced to wheel weight for those that prefer i lighter wheel with less harsh FFB effects feel...
I will definitly amend my PDF to recommend starting at TF 75 and + or - if needed but TF 75 feels Really Good to start with i think i will stay there for a bit to see... i do like My stronger FFB and Wheel weight but TF 75_RAC 75 feels very promising:encouragement: I still need to test it with more cars.
Haiden...Maybe you were on to something??? very very possible... You always talk about wording and such but you have to work on your Presentation....over saturated IMO No...Stronger than you like the FFB yes:yes: TF 75_RAC 75 really Nice... The FFB Graph says it all.
I am pretty sure that what I am seeing is heavy compression towards the top of the FFB. The only reason you don't appear to be clipping at around 75-80% is that RA is tricking you. However I do remember that you mentioned something about trying to compress the high forces and accentuate the lower ones, so I guess that's good for you.
I am tempted to say that this is as close to clipping as you can get without actually flatlining. GrimeyUnicorn caught? ;)
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 08:53
I am pretty sure that what I am seeing is heavy compression towards the top of the FFB. The only reason you don't appear to be clipping at around 75-80% is that RA is tricking you. However I do remember that you mentioned something about trying to compress the high forces and accentuate the lower ones, so I guess that's good for you.
I am tempted to say that this is as close to clipping as you can get without actually flatlining. GrimeyUnicorn caught? ;)
I dont think i Can Be any where Near Clipping TF 75, RAC 75, RAG 100 all Numbers are pretty Low only the Hardest bumps actually use the Full Box... I dont follow the Mathematic formulas so Compressed/Not Compressed dunno but it Feels Good...Im Happy the FFB did Not Lose its Crisp Sharpness when i Reduced TF
Unicorn caught a while ago... I only Moved TF 100 to TF 75 to lighten it up for those that dont like Heavy wheel/Strong FFB... The same Detailed Road Feel is Still there Just with Much Lighter Wheel Weight and Calmer FFB Effects... I didnt think i would like TF that Low(75) but i Do :yes:its still Very detailed and Feels the same with less wheel weight.
Edit: The Scion was tested at TF 100.
The C7R and Gt3 Ruf Video was TF 75_RAC 75:yes:
Saturated/ Not Saturated/ Compressed I dunno but it Feels Good... TF 75_RAC 75 Gives Crisp Sharp FFB with Much Less Wheel weight... I think i will Stay there TF 75:confused:
I am not following any math formulas, i am just obesrving your FFB curve. It roams up and down when you are driving centre, but as soon as you push a little it climbs to almost its max allowed and has very very small fluctuations, it seems like it should be moving more, but the limiter is not letting it. And at very high force turns like the uphill in Watkins Glen or EauRouge, this should be your highest point that the FFB line reaches. Instead it hovers around that threshold, just like in other lower load turns.
You are not letting it breathe at the high end, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as you did say you were going for such a feeling. I am no expert in this either, I m here learning too, that was just my observation on your graph.
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 13:29
The RAC 75 wont let the Smaller Forces Go to Max box Volume but the Harsher/Stronger Forces/Bumps , High Curbs will use the Full Box if Needed.
This Gives Notable Difference between Subtle and Harsher forces... TF 75 Tire Scrub Feel is still Notably there i thought with such a low TF that i would lose that feel but its still there :yes:
Watkins is a Bumpy Track even on the smoother sections... Im Going to test Spa and Nubergring Gp when i get off work they are Much Smoother tracks... I will post the Video.
I am pretty sure that what I am seeing is heavy compression towards the top of the FFB. The only reason you don't appear to be clipping at around 75-80% is that RA is tricking you. However I do remember that you mentioned something about trying to compress the high forces and accentuate the lower ones, so I guess that's good for you.
I am tempted to say that this is as close to clipping as you can get without actually flatlining. GrimeyUnicorn caught? ;)
Agreed. The telemetry is showing a narrow dynamic range when cornering. Math and personal opinions aside; that's just a factual observation of the data.
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 15:20
I am not following any math formulas, i am just obesrving your FFB curve. It roams up and down when you are driving centre, but as soon as you push a little it climbs to almost its max allowed and has very very small fluctuations, it seems like it should be moving more, but the limiter is not letting it. And at very high force turns like the uphill in Watkins Glen or EauRouge, this should be your highest point that the FFB line reaches. Instead it hovers around that threshold, just like in other lower load turns.
You are not letting it breathe at the high end, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as you did say you were going for such a feeling. I am no expert in this either, I m here learning too, that was just my observation on your graph.
Agreed. The telemetry is showing a narrow dynamic range when cornering. Math and personal opinions aside; that's just a factual observation of the data.
Aslo Take Note that i use No Damping/ Smoothing because i Like the Crisp FFB feel.
IMO Damping Will Dull the FFB Line a Tad and So FFB forces are Not So Shap/Harsh while Smoothing slows/Blends the Transition between Harsh and Subtle Forces... This will explain the Sharp points in the FFB Graph and also why it would appear that the Graph goes top to bottom Quickly...
Try it with TF 75 and RAC 75 you may Like it... I think maybe so as the wheel weight is Much better for thise that like a Lighter wheel... also add Smoothing Damping as you Choose if you test it and let me know the results and I will amend PDF accordingly... thnx
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 15:23
Aslo Take Note that i use No Damping/ Smoothing because i Like the Crisp FFB feel.
IMO Damping Will Dull the FFB Line a Tad and So FFB forces are Not So Shap/Harsh while Smoothing slows/Blends the Transition between Harsh and Subtle Forces... This will explain the Sharp points in the FFB Graph and also why it would appear that the Graph goes top to bottom Quickly...
Try it with TF 75 and RAC 75 you may Like it... I think maybe so as the wheel weight is Much better for thise that like a Lighter wheel... also add Smoothing Damping as you Choose if you test it and let me know the results and I will amend PDF accordingly... thnx
Edit... 2nd time Haiden you might be on to something... i like TF 75.... I thought such a low TF would Kill the Wheels Crisp feel but it didn't.:yes: It Serverd to lessen the wheel weight Nicely without Diminishing the FFB Feel:yes:
Aslo Take Note that i use No Damping/ Smoothing because i Like the Crisp FFB feel.
IMO Damping Will Dull the FFB Line a Tad and So FFB forces are Not So Shap/Harsh while Smoothing slows/Blends the Transition between Harsh and Subtle Forces... This will explain the Sharp points in the FFB Graph and also why it would appear that the Graph goes top to bottom Quickly...
Try it with TF 75 and RAC 75 you may Like it... I think maybe so as the wheel weight is Much better for thise that like a Lighter wheel... also add Smoothing Damping as you Choose if you test it and let me know the results and I will amend PDF accordingly... thnx
Not exactly sure that explains the waveform jumping to the extreme ends. Regardless, it definitely doesn't explain the narrow dynamic range.
I've already tried TF=75 with your settings. I've tried multiple iterations of your settings. Each time, I tried lowering TF and/or the Master Scales to suit my tastes. They're just not for me. There's a noticeable difference in the dynamic range. Yes, I feel more texture and road noise with your settings, but the subtle feel of tire slip and grip fluctuations simply isn't there. And that's exactly what the waveform shows in that telemetry--a narrow dynamic range.
Titzon Toast
11-05-2016, 17:43
Try and keep the discussion impersonal, respectful and based on facts guys.
I suggest to make two FFB set-ups that are identical in FFB configuration, except for the Master Scale being high in one configuration and low in the other, and the individual force parameter values the opposite. The product of master scale and individual force values should be the same in both configurations, though.
These two configurations are then tested, preferably by several people, and judged on whether the FFB is different for both configurations or not.
Since there could be hidden factors in this issue, it's best to test this in practice than to rely on theoretical considerations only, and prove whether the theory is correct or not.
I'm very interested in trying this out, I haven't played PCars in ages due to my chronic BF4 addiction but over the next couple of days I'm going to compare Grimey's, Morpwr's and Haiden's formulae against each other for ten laps around my favourite track (Senoma) and I'm gonna post the lap-times and my opinion on each here.
I'm looking forward to seeing what's what.
I'm very interested in trying this out, I haven't played PCars in ages due to my chronic BF4 addiction but over the next couple of days I'm going to compare Grimey's, Morpwr's and Haiden's formulae against each other for ten laps around my favourite track (Senoma) and I'm gonna post the lap-times and my opinion on each here.
I'm looking forward to seeing what's what.
Go for it! Just make sure you include more info other than lap times. If I tune my FFB, so that I can't feel understeer, allowing me to ignore and push through it in corners, I might get a faster hot lap, but that's not a sustainable race pace. If longer simulations are your focus, then your FFB needs/preferences will differ from someone focusing on shorter stints, time trials, and hot laps. So, if you run 10 laps trials, please note tire temps and wear at the end of each session, in addition to best lap time. Lap times alone mean nothing where FFB is concerned. A pad user can set blistering lap times, and his tires will be just as blistered when he's done. :)
Edit: I'd also suggest using a track you're less familiar with. Otherwise, you end up driving more by rote, than by feel. You already know what gear, speed, and position to be in for each turn. So you're not as dependent on FFB as you would be in a real race, where you don't always get to drive the prime line.
Titzon Toast
11-05-2016, 18:06
Go for it! Just make sure you include more info other than lap times. If I tune my FFB, so that I can't feel understeer, allowing me to ignore and push through it in corners, I might get a faster hot lap, but that's not a sustainable race pace. If longer simulations are your focus, then your FFB needs/preferences will differ from someone focusing on shorter stints, time trials, and hot laps. So, if you run 10 laps trials, please note tire temps and wear at the end of each session, in addition to best lap time. Lap times alone mean nothing where FFB is concerned. A pad user can set blistering lap times, and his tires will be just a blistered when he's done. :)
Edit: I'd also suggest using a track you're less familiar with. Otherwise, you end up driving more by rote, than by feel. You already know what gear, speed, and position to be in for each turn. So you're not as dependent on FFB as you would be in a real race, where you don't always get to drive the prime line.
Good points, I'll go for ten laps around Senoma and ten laps on a less familiar track.
I'll do a full reset for each of settings too just in case.
Good points, I'll go for ten laps around Senoma and ten laps on a less familiar track.
I'll do a full reset for each of settings too just in case.
Not sure if you need a full reset, but I'd exit the pits a couple times, just to make sure the FFB has loaded correctly. Since 9.0, I sometimes come out of the pits and my FFB is weird. I got back to the pit box (same session), exit again, and it's fine. Happened online a few days ago. Qualifying was fine, and then when the race started my FFB was off. Had to run the whole race with a grinding feel in the corners.
Good points, I'll go for ten laps around Senoma and ten laps on a less familiar track.
I'll do a full reset for each of settings too just in case.
Sonoma is a great track for testing with all the off camber corners and elevation changes. Id expect mine and haidens to feel very similar just different with his being set up for the csw and mine for the t300. I agree with the comment on tire temps also. My only thought there would be to use pressures that actually let the tires run at close to optimal temps not the defaults that usually let the tires stay really cold. Maybe use time trial for the tests?
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 20:05
Remark: There is some clipping with all the settings, except Grimeys, especially in the first right hand corner after the start/finish line. It shows that the settings are really trying to max out the dynamic range, which is good, because we know clipping fast and high spikes is tolerable, as long as the tire side load feeling and Mz isn't disturbed too much. Grimey's setting doesn't show clipping, because of the way he balances the tire forces and RAC.
Grimey's: The "all for one" idea works well for this car. As expected the wheel is quite heavy during cornering, lively and vivid even on straights. The entire "feel" reminds me a lot of what i feel when i do karting occasionally IRL. You must really "push", willing to be fast, otherwise you loose, but if you do you're getting rewarded with better lap times. And while i push i'm too busy and exhausted to notice the steering details. In so far IMO Grimey's setting is closest to reality. (But i don't know how real race cars and the MkIV feel). The setting is entertaining and rich. I guess if someone sits behind a sim wheel the first time that's what he'd expect to feel. Grimey also offers unparalleled "road feel". I assume the feel is even better with a CSW wheel, than with my T300. I assume so because it seems to me that the strong overall character of the setting challenges my wheel so much, that i'm not sure, if my wheel doesn't produce artefacts. The wheel might not be capable to reproduce all these quick changes fast enough, which leads to something that i would describe as a bit of a grinding feeling, like having sand in the wheel's mechanical parts. Saying so, i have the suspicion that a part of the road feel comes perhaps from such "noise", and is not really informative about the track surface. To avoid a misunderstanding: Even if some of the road feel is not real, it mustn't be a bad thing.
What looks disappointing at first is good: SMS made it possible to achieve best possible FFB quality made by the efforts of many, instead by a few.
Not exactly sure that explains the waveform jumping to the extreme ends. Regardless, it definitely doesn't explain the narrow dynamic range.
I've already tried TF=75 with your settings. I've tried multiple iterations of your settings. Each time, I tried lowering TF and/or the Master Scales to suit my tastes. They're just not for me. There's a noticeable difference in the dynamic range. Yes, I feel more texture and road noise with your settings, but the subtle feel of tire slip and grip fluctuations simply isn't there. And that's exactly what the waveform shows in that telemetry--a narrow dynamic range.
Disregarding My own opinion i just posted the excerpt from tennebaums last test about My settings...He pretty much summed up exactly My thoughts in his own words from his test...However the suggestion you made about lowering the TF was spot on even though we have different FFB taste... Thanks for that:yes: it doe's feel really Nice:yes: it didn't put finer feel into the wheel but the reduced wheel weight with TF 75, RAC 75 seem to sync very Nice and provide a nice FFB feel and spot on wheel weight...I could definitely get used to the lighter wheel it only took 4 laps on my first try in the Ruff at Watkins short/Laguna seca and i was running at My normal pace for those tracks:o... I had not thought to my self to reduce the TF because i thought that reducing TF would kill the sharp crisp FFB and detail prefer...yup so i learned something new:yes:
I will agree we have very different Needs when it comes to FFB Taste...i have tried a few peoples settings JS, yours and they were just not right for Me..Not enough feel or Not the feel i need or like... last week when i tried your settings with the ford MK IV its not the best handling car but they made the car even floatier and boat like than it already is... JS settings have a similar feel that is just not for me... I like Sharp Crisp FFB with some wheel weight to it... it keeps Me from constantly over steering...I dunno maybe just over the course of time with all the updates and patches i have gotten used to strong FFB that IMO is very Detailed and Dynamic... as it is Now i will stick with TF 75_RAC 75 for a while to get totally used to it to figure out whats next.
also i did not think to include suggesting lowering TF in My PDF because i figured most people would know to do that...Not to include that was error on My part. so i will be amending the PDF to Recommend TF 75 as a starting point that can be + or - according to Wheel used & to set desired wheel weight to taste:yes:
Disregarding My own opinion i just posted the excerpt from tennebaums last test about My settings...He pretty much summed up exactly My thoughts in his own words from his test...However the suggestion you made about lowering the TF was spot on even though we have different FFB taste... Thanks for that:yes: it doe's feel really Nice:yes: it didn't put finer feel into the wheel but the reduced wheel weight with TF 75, RAC 75 seem to sync very Nice and provide a nice FFB feel and spot on wheel weight...I could definitely get used to the lighter wheel it only took 4 laps on my first try in the Ruff at Watkins short/Laguna seca and i was running at My normal pace for those tracks:o... I had not thought to my self to reduce the TF because i thought that reducing TF would kill the sharp crisp FFB and detail prefer...yup so i learned something new:yes:
I will agree we have very different Needs when it comes to FFB Taste...i have tried a few peoples settings JS, yours and they were just not right for Me..Not enough feel or Not the feel i need or like... last week when i tried your settings with the ford MK IV its not the best handling car but they made the car even floatier and boat like than it already is... JS settings have a similar feel that is just not for me... I like Sharp Crisp FFB with some wheel weight to it... it keeps Me from constantly over steering...I dunno maybe just over the course of time with all the updates and patches i have gotten used to strong FFB that IMO is very Detailed and Dynamic... as it is Now i will stick with TF 75_RAC 75 for a while to get totally used to it to figure out whats next.
also i did not think to include suggesting lowering TF in My PDF because i figured most people would know to do that...Not to include that was error on My part. so i will be amending the PDF to Recommend TF 75 as a starting point that can be + or - according to Wheel used & to set desired wheel weight to taste:yes:
Yep. He also said this. Which, along with his other comments, sums up my thoughts on the differences extremely well.
Jack Spade's setting is like "having it all." Right out of the box. What sounds like a compromising "mainstream" setting feels well balanced, with lots of details, intuitive and delivers nice road feel with little noise. I think the setting really maxes out the dynamic range of the system. It's s almost too "talkative" for my taste. The setting is a "no-brainer" for everybody who is looking for a great baseline FFB setting. Many are using this setting and tweak it by nuances to their likings. I also feel attempted to always check first on his settings to get a reference before fumbling around with my own. I miss a bit the pureness and detail when it comes to the side load of the front tires. It's probably all there, but i didn't spend enough time wit it to be capable to read the setting to its full extend.
Edit: I like and want the best dynamic range I can get. Check out this PDF for the SimVibe software. http://simxperience.com/Portals/0/Files/SimVibe/SimVibe%20Tuning%20Guide.pdf
Page 4 lists some of the settings for what you can control. A lot of things listed on that page are things that, IMO, you're attempting to get through the wheel. This is why I don't like/want that noise in my wheel. Simply put, I don't think it belongs in the wheel. If you were building a rig on PC, you would use SimVibe to send all that road feel and track texture to your Buttkicker. IMO, that's where it belongs. Pushing it through the wheel just muddies up the slip related forces you want/need in the wheel. Sure, it's preference. And if you don't have a PC or SimVibe, I guess it's an option. Personally, I prefer to just wait until I get the right gear. With a PC running SimVibe, your wheel can be noise free, communicating critical information only, and you could put the strong texture and road feel where it belongs, vibrating through the chassis.
Like Tennenbaum said in his post. "...i have the suspicion that a part of the road feel comes perhaps from such "noise", and is not really informative about the track surface." That's been my suspicion since the first time I tried your settings, and also one of the reasons I started dialing out the saturation in my old CSW settings. I just started to get the feeling that they weren't really track related or communicating anything useful. I realize that's just my opinion. But I think the SimVibe software is a good example of where that type of road feel is best applied. I want to feel bumps through my Buttkicker, not my wheel. The only bump related information I need in the wheel is how that bump affects my grip. Where the wheel is concerned, the traction slip the bump causes is more important to me than the jolt of impact. IMO, the impact is best communicated through the BK. IMO, there's a reason SimVibe has a more texture/road feel focus, and SimCommander focuses more on slip/transition forces.
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 21:10
I can respect that that is your opinion:yes: No Real problem because you don't use My settings anyway so No Big deal so you don't have to worry about it:p Take Note that i don't use yours or JS settings and i don't concern My self with them as they are not to my liking... If they work for you and those that use them that's what really matters Most...anything else would be just Nit picking being a anarchist about things i have no concern with just to cause confusion:yes:... I made the changes for those that do use them... and again that was a very good suggestion to go down on TF a bit:yes:
also JS custom Tunes every Car...Nope I'm Not going to do that i set the Global and basic in car FFB settings so it feels Good with all cars and every 1 can custom set the Fx,Fy Sop etc to taste... that's what end up happening any way... even you dont use JS settings exactly 1 to 1.
I use 2x buttkickers 1 plays left only other plays right only... Not Sim Vibe but good enough:yes: on My previous set up they were good on the Rseat RS1 they are incredible... they add a huge amount of immersion:applause:... I'm waiting for them to restock so i can order 2 More!!!
I can respect that that is your opinion:yes: No Real problem because you don't use My settings anyway so No Big deal so you don't have to don't worry about it:p Take Note that i don't use yours or JS settings and i don't concern My self with them as they are not for to my liking... If they work for you and those that use them that's what really matters Most...anything else would be just Nit picking being a anarchist about things i have no concern with just to cause confusion:yes:... I made the changes for those that do use them... and again that was a very good suggestion to go down on TF a bit:yes:
also JS custom Tunes every Car...Nope I'm Not going to do that i set the Global and basic in car FFB settings so it feels Good with all cars and every 1 can custom set the Fx,Fy Sop etc to taste... that's what end up happening any way... even you dont use JS settings exactly 1 to 1.
I use 2x buttkickers 1 plays left only other plays right only... Not Sim Vibe but good enough:yes: on My previous set up they were good on the Rseat RS1 they are incredible... they add a huge amount of immersion:applause:... I'm waiting for them to restock so i can order 2 More!!!
I don't care which settings you use. I'm just giving voice to another option, and asking for clarity (trying to eliminate confusion) for the sake of those still sorting their settings out or new to the game.
And, speaking of clarity... I actually do use Jack in-car settings as-is. I only bump the Master Scale a few clicks on cars when I'm using the heavier GT rim--understandable. The FA was the only car I made force scale adjustments to. I lowered Mz from 40 to 36 to get rid of a little bit of oscillation. The oscillation was only an issue on one or two tracks, but I made the change across the board to keep a consistent feel in the car. Other than that, Jack's in-car settings are fine out of the box.
But I'm glad yours work for you. And I'm not trying to sell you on mine or convince you otherwise. To each his own.
Grimey ,
You've stated a few times now the reason you use a heavy wheel is so you don't oversteer. You know what the problem is so why not turn the weight down a few and give yourself a few nights to adjust? You just need to retrain your hands. Someone on here mentioned about pulling the wheel not to long ago and its worth checking. If your turning right and pulling with the right hand youll have a tendency to do that. Took me a few nights to stop doing it. Not saying the pulling is your problem but you can retrain yourself to use a little lighter wheel and not oversteer. Just a thought.
Roger Prynne
11-05-2016, 21:47
Can you two (Grimey and Haiden) just agree to disagree and stop bickering.
It's obvious that you both have different views on how the FFB should feel and the settings to use, so just concentrate on your own settings.
Any newcomers that are reading this thread will soon shy away from it as it's getting nowhere.
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 21:52
I don't care which settings you use. I'm just giving voice to another option, and asking for clarity (trying to eliminate confusion) for the sake of those still sorting their settings out or new to the game.
And, speaking of clarity... I actually do use Jack in-car settings as-is. I only bump the Master Scale a few clicks on cars when I'm using the heavier GT rim--understandable. The FA was the only car I made force scale adjustments to. I lowered Mz from 40 to 36 to get rid of a little bit of oscillation. The oscillation was only an issue on one or two tracks, but I made the change across the board to keep a consistent feel in the car. Other than that, Jack's in-car settings are fine out of the box.
But I'm glad yours work for you. And I'm not trying to sell you on mine or convince you otherwise. To each his own.
WOW another Great Point... I totally disregarded the fact that as of lately I'm back to using the Porsche 918 RSR Rim!!! and that is lighter than the GT Rim/Hub combo:yes: Yes Rim size and weight can make a huge difference in the FFB settings:yes: been busy with real life...well you know how it goes. shruggs
Don't worry I'm getting back to it... i finally made the last adjustment to the Man kave and New RS1 set up:yes: took Me a bit to get it dialed in and comfortable but I'm ready to Roll now.
Wooohooo that's 3 good pointers now your on a roll:encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:
Edit: Originally Posted by tennenbaum http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?p=1274304#post1274304) Remark: There is some clipping with all the settings, except Grimeys, especially in the first right hand corner after the start/finish line. It shows that the settings are really trying to max out the dynamic range, which is good, because we know clipping fast and high spikes is tolerable, as long as the tire side load feeling and Mz isn't disturbed too much. Grimey's setting doesn't show clipping, because of the way he balances the tire forces and RAC.
The Bright side is if i showed No Clipping before with TF 100 Now with TF 75 There will surely be No Clipping:yes: That's definitely Great Progress:yes::yes::yes:
Can you two (Grimey and Haiden) just agree to disagree and stop bickering.
It's obvious that you both have different views on how the FFB should feel and the settings to use, so just concentrate on your own settings.
Any newcomers that are reading this thread will soon shy away from it as it's getting nowhere.
Its not as bad as it looks. They are actually getting somewhere believe it or not.
Can you two (Grimey and Haiden) just agree to disagree and stop bickering.
It's obvious that you both have different views on how the FFB should feel and the settings to use, so just concentrate on your own settings.
Any newcomers that are reading this thread will soon shy away from it as it's getting nowhere.
I agreed to disagree a long time ago. I don't care what settings he's using. Everyone has their own feel. The end result isn't the issue. I just want clear terms and definitions for the sake of communication. What's the point, if you can just post anything regardless accuracy/clarity?
GrimeyDog
11-05-2016, 23:36
I agreed to disagree a long time ago. I don't care what settings he's using. Everyone has their own feel. The end result isn't the issue. I just want clear terms and definitions for the sake of communication. What's the point, if you can just post anything regardless accuracy/clarity?
Who cares about terminology... Not Me I'm Not Trying to write the FFB Guide if SMS has Not Bothered to write it...But in any event no need to discus your or my opinion any further as we do not and will not agree even if we agree the word game semantics or anarchist ways kick in some where along the line... i don't think either one of us is dumb nor do i think any one reading the last few pages of comments is dumb... they can clearly understand whats going on and the comments are there for all to discern about who and whats causing the problem:yes:
But in any even would you post a FFB Graph video excluding formula cars i figure go for the cars with more weight transfer and body roll on Nubergring GP or Spa??? one of the smoother tracks so we can all see what your telemetry looks like:yes: with only My FFB Videos to watch there is Nothing to compare it to except some ones worded opinion and that doesn't make for a fair/accurate or Good comparison. Thnx
any one else feel free to post a video also:yes:
Titzon Toast
12-05-2016, 00:04
I'll post three of them first chance I get.
Titzon Toast
12-05-2016, 00:10
Sonoma is a great track for testing with all the off camber corners and elevation changes. Id expect mine and haidens to feel very similar just different with his being set up for the csw and mine for the t300. I agree with the comment on tire temps also. My only thought there would be to use pressures that actually let the tires run at close to optimal temps not the defaults that usually let the tires stay really cold. Maybe use time trial for the tests?
Answer me this please Morpwr, in TT events does the car from your own garage with it's current setup get used for it?
I've only ever raced online or test drove. That's how I was planning on testing out the three different iterations.
Yes it should use the one in your garage. I just figured time trial would be exactly the same every time as far as track,temps and weather are concerned. So less variables. Should be interesting especially seeing you haven't played in a while. I didn't mean that in a bad way just you havent played recently so sort of starting fresh.
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 01:00
I'll post three of them first chance I get.
What wheel are you using??? you may have to reduce TF/RAC a bit if your on the GT2 wheel
That would be great but i was Hoping Haiden would show us what his telemetry looks like on Nuberg GP... after all he is the one with the Most to say so i figured he would show us what the right way in his opinion looks like:yes:
What wheel are you using??? you may have to reduce TF/RAC a bit if your on the GT2 wheel
That would be great but i was Hoping Haiden would show us what his telemetry looks like on Nuberg GP... after all he is the one with the Most to say so i figured he would show us what the right way in his opinion looks like:yes:
Do you ever give it a rest?
If you or anyone wants to see what the telemetry looks like, just plug the settings in and go for a drive. You've got the same game and hardware. If you're curious, do your own research. I knew what your telemetry looked like before you even posted a video, because I tried it.
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 01:34
05/11/2016 -----> 10.0#v2 PDF update TF 75_ RAC_75
Amended PDF to use TF 75 as a starting point so user can + or - to better manage wheel weight according to wheel used and personal taste.
Added Notes to better help user understand how to adjust settings to tweek to personal FFB taste.
also added Note suggesting that user try to keep TF and RAC set to same # value if possible to maintain better balance of TF and FFB effects forces.
Every Tweek just Represents How the Maker of said Tweek thinks that a Given Car should Feel... Therefore there is No Right/Wrong Tweek formula... Every Tweek Must be Fine Tuned to users Wheel used and Taste by Feel/Trial and Error.
IMO With Settings 100/1.00 and Below the FFB Power and Feel is there... If the Power and Feel were Lacking with 100/1.00 and Below settings i would agree that Higher #'s would be Needed... But because the FFB Power and Feel is there IMO when you have to use some settings 101/1.01+ then something in the FFB Chain is Not being Balanced properly which causes you to overdrive 1 part of the System to compensate for the other parts being under used/out of balance... I use No Settings above 100/1.00
There is No Right or wrong... its all about what works and Feels Good to the End user.
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