View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 03:46
One FFB to Rule them All... FFB Test TF_75_RAC_75 Cauldwell Park, Ariel Atom Mugen and Ginetta Gt40 jr very different cars same in car FFB settings.
Ariel Atom Mugen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bQXYl6cqE
Ginetta GT40 jr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyvK7cN6_mU
I'm Very happy with the New TF 75 setting!!! Check out how easy i get through the turn around...i dunno if i could have made it this effortlessly with TF 100:confused:
Haiden that was a great suggestion glad i gave it a try...i dunno if you really meant to help make my Tweek better or Not but your last 2 ideas have been solid Gold!!! I think i was getting burnt out and board with Pcars I'm pretty sure of it and my focus on little details was lapsing...The Last online race was with the Group Spa and Nubergring i wasnt that into it but i tried...since then I've done pretty much No racing...but in the last 2 weeks i upgraded to a New Rig, Had a few Good spats with you and some of the best online Races i have had a while tonight...Room with 15 people Laguna Seca GT3, top 8 running 1:23.xxx or less the rest lapping at 1:24.xxx and No one was crashing and ramming any 1 off the road!!! the best part is it was just a random room i joined...I managed to get 3rd:yes: seems like all the huuuraaah is bringing back My fire and Racing mojo:victorious:
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 11:21
Do you ever give it a rest?
If you or anyone wants to see what the telemetry looks like, just plug the settings in and go for a drive. You've got the same game and hardware. If you're curious, do your own research. I knew what your telemetry looked like before you even posted a video, because I tried it.
Another Good idea:yes: I had Not thought of that... I will Make a Video with your settings and post it:applause:
:yes:
Another Good idea:yes: I had Not thought of that... I will Make a Video with your settings and post it:applause:
After you input his settings, drive with them for a day or two , i don't think you will go back , imho :yes:
edit to add colour
Another Good idea:yes: I had Not thought of that... I will Make a Video with your settings and post it:applause:
I have an even better idea... Why don't you follow your own advice--to each his own? Stop worrying about my settings. If they aren't for you, then why are you wasting time with them? Go enjoy your new found love for the game. That might be why you got burned out before. I tried your settings. They weren't for me. I don't keep plugging them in, because...well...why? And I'm definitely not going to waste my time making and posting videos of them.
Basically... I'm tired of talking to you, and people here are tired of the back and forth. When I try to ignore you, you keep pestering me (and then have the nerve to imply that I'm the anarchist?).
I'm truly glad you've found a new setting/improvement (lower TF). This thread is all about helping people. In fact, your discovery has helped me by showing me my own idiocy in debating you over saturation. I thought we were having a legitimate debate, based on each other's findings. But it turns out, that you were debating (vehemently) something you'd never even tried. It's well known that high TF and/or high in-car masters can cause saturation. And yet, after all the back and forth, wasting everyone's time, you suddenly "discover" that you like lower TF. I am curious as to why, in all your previous, extensive testing, you'd never tried it before, but...whatever. I just wish you had actually tried the lower settings when the saturation debate started. We could have spared everyone 5+ pages of nonsense.
Roger Prynne
12-05-2016, 12:43
@Haiden It looks to me like Grimey is trying to make the peace and congratulating you on some of your settings that he has tried, please stop trying to wind him up or there's going to be trouble.
If you don't like his responses then don't reply to them..... simples.
I finally had a go with the FCM and found my wheel to be nearly linear , 0.9981 and saw what my scoops were doing to my line, they have now been turned off and deadzone increased back upto 0.13 and my wheel feels tighter than ever .
Thanks to skoader for this great tool to go with all the other tools that the community have developed to help get the most out of this game , and thanks again to all that add their 2 cents . All opinions help to open our minds to other ways . Sometimes we dont agree but thats how we learn .
I've updated my settings in my sig , now TRY THEM and learn to like em , if you dont like em, Your WRONG . lol:playful:
Koza_Nostra
12-05-2016, 12:59
I finally had a go with the FCM and found my wheel to be nearly linear , 0.9981 and saw what my scoops were doing to my line, they have now been turned off and deadzone increased back upto 0.13 and my wheel feels tighter than ever .
Thanks to skoader for this great tool to go with all the other tools that the community have developed to help get the most out of this game , and thanks again to all that add their 2 cents . All opinions help to open our minds to other ways . Sometimes we dont agree but thats how we learn .
I've updated my settings in my sig , now TRY THEM and learn to like em , if you dont like em your wrong . lol:playful:
Can't find your settings. What is your Nickname on Oscarolim?
Koza_Nostra
12-05-2016, 13:04
HAHA! Sorry, being blind :) Thanks
Yeah cool , doesnt the link take you straight there , and its the only Fanatec GT2 on there .
@Haiden It looks to me like Grimey is trying to make the peace and congratulating you on some of your settings that he has tried, please stop trying to wind him up or there's going to be trouble.
If you don't like his responses then don't reply to them..... simples.
Wasn't trying to wind him up. I was just being honest. But fine. Like I said, I'm tired. Done.
Yeah cool , doesnt the link take you straight there , and its the only Fanatec GT2 on there .
Are they updated? You mentioned setting deadzone back to 0.13, but it's showing 0.15 on that page.
Yeah 0.13 was with my on wheel ffb at 100 for testing but i run 90 while playing . The lower the ffb the bigger the deadzone .
That post was before i tested fcm with the ffb at 90 . My sig settings are as they are in game exactly .
Yeah 0.13 was with my on wheel ffb at 100 for testing but i run 90 while playing . The lower the ffb the bigger the deadzone .
That post was before i tested fcm with the ffb at 90 . My sig settings are as they are in game exactly .
Cool, I'll give the Scoop removal a shot. I can't remember trying it with current settings.
Not telling you what to do but imo try the FCM and see what the scoops do .
I noticed JS has got his at 0 in one of his sets .
Koza_Nostra
12-05-2016, 14:11
Something popped in my head today.. So let's say we test two different TX wheels on FCM. Let's say TX 1 is one year old and TX 2 is brand new. Would FCM give the same Deadzone, Scoop values or would it give different values? Assuming TX 1 would have more wear and tear on the motor, belt etc...Got me thinking :)
Ekay.jay
12-05-2016, 14:23
Something popped in my head today.. So let's say we test two different TX wheels on FCM. Let's say TX 1 is one year old and TX 2 is brand new. Would FCM give the same Deadzone, Scoop values or would it give different values? Assuming TX 1 would have more wear and tear on the motor, belt etc...Got me thinking :)
I would like to know this also. I am currently running a csv2, would my deadzone be any different then haiden's csv2?
Not telling you what to do but imo try the FCM and see what the scoops do .
I noticed JS has got his at 0 in one of his sets .
Can you post a link to the tool? I dowloaded the one in the thread, but when I unzip it, the folder is empty. Maybe I'm in the wrong place.
Something popped in my head today.. So let's say we test two different TX wheels on FCM. Let's say TX 1 is one year old and TX 2 is brand new. Would FCM give the same Deadzone, Scoop values or would it give different values? Assuming TX 1 would have more wear and tear on the motor, belt etc...Got me thinking :)
I can only tell you on the t300 it was the same on the old and new version of the fcm. I wouldn't expect a lot of wear in a year.
I would like to know this also. I am currently running a csv2, would my deadzone be any different then haiden's csv2?
Same. I've always assumed the variance, if any, would be negligible. But that's an assumption. It wouldn't surprised me if the variance was greater the more time between production units, because manufacturers sometimes change suppliers for certain parts. Same end product, but the innards can vary over the product's life cycle.
Koza_Nostra
12-05-2016, 15:08
Thanks people. Would be interested to compare. If there is anyone who is willing to test FCM 1.2 with TX, I'm more than happy to compare the results just to see what we get. Give me a shout or PM if anyone wants to do that. Cheers
FCM 1.2 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1110835&viewfull=1#post1110835)
If anyone lose the link, it's in the baseline thread, in my signature
Koza_Nostra
12-05-2016, 15:21
GrimeyDog, just remembered that you have TX.. Would you like to do a test with me on FCM 1.2 and see if we get the same or at least similar values having the same wheels, but probably different age, wear and date of production. Let me know
Something popped in my head today.. So let's say we test two different TX wheels on FCM. Let's say TX 1 is one year old and TX 2 is brand new. Would FCM give the same Deadzone, Scoop values or would it give different values? Assuming TX 1 would have more wear and tear on the motor, belt etc...Got me thinking :)
Didn't explain myself right. Mine was the same on my year old t300 and my new t300 with both fcms. My first t300 developed play the shaft so I sent it back.
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 15:48
Something popped in my head today.. So let's say we test two different TX wheels on FCM. Let's say TX 1 is one year old and TX 2 is brand new. Would FCM give the same Deadzone, Scoop values or would it give different values? Assuming TX 1 would have more wear and tear on the motor, belt etc...Got me thinking :)
I would like to know this also. I am currently running a csv2, would my deadzone be any different then haiden's csv2?
Same. I've always assumed the variance, if any, would be negligible. But that's an assumption. It wouldn't surprised me if the variance was greater the more time between production units, because manufacturers sometimes change suppliers for certain parts. Same end product, but the innards can vary over the product's life cycle.
I think as long as there is No Major wear on the Belts that the Readings should be same or Very Very Close...The 2 wheels still use the same FW and the DOR is the same so even with manufacturer parts upgrades they should line up Very Close.
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 15:54
GrimeyDog, just remembered that you have TX.. Would you like to do a test with me on FCM 1.2 and see if we get the same or at least similar values having the same wheels, but probably different age, wear and date of production. Let me know
I will Down load it and Give it a shot... My TX has Very Little usage time... I didnt like Forza 5 and went back to the CSR Elite on GT6. I will try it with the CSR Elite and V2 also... I wonder what Readings the CSR Elite will Give... it has alot of use on it... I've had it since 2010 and it still works Fine... Hmmm should be a interesting Comparrison.
tennenbaum
12-05-2016, 21:04
WOW another Great Point... I totally disregarded the fact that as of lately I'm back to using the Porsche 918 RSR Rim!!! and that is lighter than the GT Rim/Hub combo:yes: Yes Rim size and weight can make a huge difference in the FFB settings:yes: been busy with real life...well you know how it goes. shruggs
Don't worry I'm getting back to it... i finally made the last adjustment to the Man kave and New RS1 set up:yes: took Me a bit to get it dialed in and comfortable but I'm ready to Roll now.
Wooohooo that's 3 good pointers now your on a roll:encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:
Edit: Originally Posted by tennenbaum http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?p=1274304#post1274304) Remark: There is some clipping with all the settings, except Grimeys, especially in the first right hand corner after the start/finish line. It shows that the settings are really trying to max out the dynamic range, which is good, because we know clipping fast and high spikes is tolerable, as long as the tire side load feeling and Mz isn't disturbed too much. Grimey's setting doesn't show clipping, because of the way he balances the tire forces and RAC.
The Bright side is if i showed No Clipping before with TF 100 Now with TF 75 There will surely be No Clipping:yes: That's definitely Great Progress:yes::yes::yes:
of course with your setting there can't be clipping. it's saturation. the ones who know what that means in terms of differentiation (no differentiation = no details) - especially if it's a lot of saturation - can decrypt my quick note here.
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 22:08
of course with your setting there can't be clipping. it's saturation. the ones who know what that means in terms of differentiation (no differentiation = no details) - especially if it's a lot of saturation - can decrypt my quick note here.
i dunno... So i've been sitting here board... i decided to Flip My in car settings around...While I'm still playing around with TF 75
TF 75
RAG 1.00 (which is much lower than Most people set it)
RAB 0.08
RAC 0.75 ( also lower than most)
I flipped my in car settings ( these are my settings reversed i just didn't put Fz and Sop lat to 120... but i tested no setting over 100/1.00 needed still plenty of power:yes:
master scale 50
Fx 20
Fy 60
Fz 100
Mz 60
Sop scale 50
Sop lat 10
Sop Diff 100
Thing is they Both felt the same:confused: Shrugggs... really just Shruggs... i had done this before and just figured id check it again with Lower TF and RAC i cant remember what they were set to before last time i tried it... i know they were Higher for sure!!!
I'm using the Gt3 Ginetta because i don't drive that car so I'm pretty much in the blind how the car handles or react so i can not drive by instinct... I'm still here testing it to make sure I'm driving the same line even the graph reads 99.95% the same that's why I'm still testing to make sure I'm driving the same line.
So what is the whole point about the High Masters VS Low Masters Debate again:confused: these are the exact #s just reversed whats wrong here why is there No Notable Difference???
Edit: I'm just looking through random tweeks and these #'s are well within low in car masters specs...My RAG, RAC are lower and TF is in within specs or lower than some??? Explain???
GrimeyDog
12-05-2016, 23:53
i dunno... So i've been sitting here board... i decided to Flip My in car settings around...While I'm still playing around with TF 75
TF 75
RAG 1.00 (which is much lower than Most people set it)
RAB 0.08
RAC 0.75 ( also lower than most)
I flipped my in car settings ( these are my settings reversed i just didn't put Fz and Sop lat to 120... but i tested no setting over 100/1.00 needed still plenty of power:yes:
master scale 50
Fx 20
Fy 60
Fz 100
Mz 60
Sop scale 50
Sop lat 10
Sop Diff 100
Thing is they Both felt the same:confused: Shrugggs... really just Shruggs... i had done this before and just figured id check it again with Lower TF and RAC i cant remember what they were set to before last time i tried it... i know they were Higher for sure!!!
I'm using the Gt3 Ginetta because i don't drive that car so I'm pretty much in the blind how the car handles or react so i can not drive by instinct... I'm still here testing it to make sure I'm driving the same line even the graph reads 99.95% the same that's why I'm still testing to make sure I'm driving the same line.
So what is the whole point about the High Masters VS Low Masters Debate again:confused: these are the exact #s just reversed whats wrong here why is there No Notable Difference???
Edit: I'm just looking through random tweeks and these #'s are well within low in car masters specs...My RAG, RAC are lower and TF is in within specs or lower than some??? Explain???
https://youtu.be/XYDZ4pkHD9k
This Video Shows and compares the FFB Telemetry with reversed masters... i start with 50 and Fx,Fy,Sop doubled then go to garage and reverse the settings back to compare...its all 1 straight video I set the settings in the garage did 2 laps then went back to garage and Reversed the Car masters and settings... thoughts???
The Global settings used are in the quoted post.
The Master Scale is a multiplier. 20*10 and 40*5 both equal 200.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 02:06
The Master Scale is a multiplier. 20*10 and 40*5 both equal 200.
Yes clearly i understand that... I always said that high masters low masters don't matter its all about balance and have always been fiercely debated and told it doesn't work like that if i reverse it... the feel was identical!!!
Low masters high masters doesn't matter i have the same FFB Power and feel that i do with masters 100 or 50 and the thing about it is if you look at the other settings my settings are actually lower than alot of tweeks...that would mean even with car masters set to 50 and lower in car setting than most people use my settings would be considered saturated...and this is not the case... the difference is i use No smoothing or damping in the global or in car settings.. i like the crisp sharp feel of the raw forces... also explains like i posted the other day my FFB line appears more aggressive/not as Flowing and smooth as yours or most because i don't use smoothing or damping... i added smoothing and damping to test it but removed it because it masked the crisp FFB feel i like.
IMO this test speaks for its self about the difference between High masters/ Low masters...makes No Diff as the graphs were the same and so was the FFB Feel and power... and reducing the masters below 50 simply reduced the FFB by the same volume as it would if you reduced it from 100. 10 x 5 same as 5 x 10:yes:
video clearly shows evidence of this statement.
https://youtu.be/XYDZ4pkHD9k
Edit even better than i thought... Driving Formula A and the Lower TF setting has removed all traces of oscillation... No you cant let go of the wheel..you cant do that with any car at least i don't think so but all traces of oscillation is gone from formula A now...i can confirm this only for the v2 wheel ATM...No more special tweek settings or reducing Mz it work with the same settings i use in every car Now:yes:
Saturation is present in all sets. The amount of saturation makes a difference. You cut your scales by half and reversed them to achieve the same output, so yes, it feels the same. But don't forget, at a value of 100, your Master can be more than twice as high than Jack's in-cars. In some cars it's more than three times higher. Saturation is referring to the final total output, not which side you balance the equation on. I think people always reference the Master, because the balance of the individual force scales is a dynamic relationship, so it's easier to just use the Master to control the final output, instead of recalculating the individual scales.
gotdirt410sprintcar
13-05-2016, 02:59
Yeap I flip my in car settings before like 5 months ago and you get the same feel. No way seriously... with say TF 20 FFB 100 pretty much same feel. I don't believe it... yes really but your getting satchyouration and you don't do it right.
Yeah but my math is better than yours you wait I got me some videos. You think I care about that yellow line my line is better than yours and what,damn right it's better than yours .https://youtu.be/chuyHxk3Zd8
I would like to know this also. I am currently running a csv2, would my deadzone be any different then haiden's csv2?
Honestly, not sure if I did this right. There was a note on the tool download post that said the FFB test didn't work well with some Fanatec wheels, but it didn't say which ones. I ran the test and clicked Calculate Best R2 Value, and here's what it gave me. The Knee is close to my current setting, but the Reduction is about double. I tried the DRR=0.02, but like the feel of my current 0.05 much better. The Scoop Reduction is just too low for me.
SK=0.88
SR=0.75
DRR=0.02
I didn't like the feel of that Reduction, at all.
Honestly, not sure if I did this right. There was a note on the tool download post that said the FFB test didn't work well with some Fanatec wheels, but it didn't say which ones. I ran the test and clicked Calculate Best R2 Value, and here's what it gave me. The Knee is close to my current setting, but the Reduction is about double. I tried the DRR=0.02, but like the feel of my current 0.05 much better. The Scoop Reduction is just too low for me.
SK=0.88
SR=0.75
DRR=0.02
I didn't like the feel of that Reduction, at all.
Yeah that's definitely no good for the v2. There's an issue with the force test that has been reported by several users with that particular wheel. Until I can debug the problem, the only other option is to use wheelchecks log2 force test and import the resulting .csv file into FCM. You'll get totally different results with the correct data. Sorry about that.
Jack Spade
13-05-2016, 05:54
Honestly, not sure if I did this right. There was a note on the tool download post that said the FFB test didn't work well with some Fanatec wheels, but it didn't say which ones. I ran the test and clicked Calculate Best R2 Value, and here's what it gave me. The Knee is close to my current setting, but the Reduction is about double. I tried the DRR=0.02, but like the feel of my current 0.05 much better. The Scoop Reduction is just too low for me.
SK=0.88
SR=0.75
DRR=0.02
I didn't like the feel of that Reduction, at all.
The build in test of skoader´s FCM 1.2 tool doesn´t work with a CSW v2, you need "wheelcheck" to run the test routine and import this data to calculate with the tool.
There´s a difference between the old spreadsheet method and skoader´s latest version, here for comparison - CSW v2 - Dri = 3 (no drag), FF = 100
spreadsheet -- SK = 86, SR = 28, DRR = 0.05
FCM 1.2 -- SK = 81, SR = 34, DRR = 0.03
As you can see here the difference is not really that big..... I´m going to post more about in my thread.
The build in test of skoader´s FCM 1.2 tool doesn´t work with a CSW v2, you need "wheelcheck" to run the test routine and import this data to calculate with the tool.
There´s a difference between the old spreadsheet method and skoader´s latest version, here for comparison - CSW v2 - Dri = 3 (no drag), FF = 100
spreadsheet -- SK = 86, SR = 28, DRR = 0.05
FCM 1.2 -- SK = 81, SR = 34, DRR = 0.03
As you can see here the difference is not really that big..... I´m going to post more about in my thread.
Even if the built in wheel test of FCM is good, for most wheels, i suggest to run the test in wheelcheck because you can keep the results afterward. Whenever you want to play with FCM, you just have to import the data instead of having to run the test again.
Even if the built in wheel test of FCM is good, for most wheels, i suggest to run the test in wheelcheck because you can keep the results afterward. Whenever you want to play with FCM, you just have to import the data instead of having to run the test again.
You can actually save the test results from FCM as well. In the force test dialog there is a checkbox - "Save test results to .csv file". This will save the the raw data so you can import it again later. :)
tennenbaum
13-05-2016, 08:20
Yes clearly i understand that... I always said that high masters low masters don't matter its all about balance and have always been fiercely debated and told it doesn't work like that if i reverse it... the feel was identical!!!
Low masters high masters doesn't matter i have the same FFB Power and feel that i do with masters 100 or 50 and the thing about it is if you look at the other settings my settings are actually lower than alot of tweeks...that would mean even with car masters set to 50 and lower in car setting than most people use my settings would be considered saturated...and this is not the case... the difference is i use No smoothing or damping in the global or in car settings.. i like the crisp sharp feel of the raw forces... also explains like i posted the other day my FFB line appears more aggressive/not as Flowing and smooth as yours or most because i don't use smoothing or damping... i added smoothing and damping to test it but removed it because it masked the crisp FFB feel i like.
IMO this test speaks for its self about the difference between High masters/ Low masters...makes No Diff as the graphs were the same and so was the FFB Feel and power... and reducing the masters below 50 simply reduced the FFB by the same volume as it would if you reduced it from 100. 10 x 5 same as 5 x 10:yes:
video clearly shows evidence of this statement.
https://youtu.be/XYDZ4pkHD9k
Edit even better than i thought... Driving Formula A and the Lower TF setting has removed all traces of oscillation... No you cant let go of the wheel..you cant do that with any car at least i don't think so but all traces of oscillation is gone from formula A now...i can confirm this only for the v2 wheel ATM...No more special tweek settings or reducing Mz it work with the same settings i use in every car Now:yes:
me a bit confused:
First you confirm that its simple (distributive) math. Which is in accordance what seems to become more an more common understanding. Also see this great post from ermo:http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/ and others say.
But than you say with lower TF the FFB (oscillation, etc) "...even better than i thought".
By saying so you evoke the impression that it doesn't matter which of the scalers you change, as long as you don't change the 'balance', but if you lower TF you get a better FFB feel. So you are confirming the distributive math rule while denying it at the same time. :rolleyes:
Can't we just come to a point to agree on what's said and proven in this and other threads in its utmost simplicity for the sake of the casual readers:
Fxyzm, SoP, spindle master scaler and SoP scaler, and TF are all linear multipliers. each is equal, none of them inferior oder superior.
Well, given the understanding that Fx Fy Fz Fm must be looked at as single channels, that are funneled into the spindle master scaler, and SoP scaler, and those two funneled into the TF channel. similair to a mixing console, with channels, busses, and master channels. they have different names but they scale all linear (distributive) - as long as no 'non-linear' processer is put in between them... And pCars doesn't have non-linear processor module inbetween Fxyzm/SoPlatt-diff and in car scalers and TF.
This has nothing to do with 'balance'. Instead you can use all three multilpiers in a row (according to signal chain picture) to achieve the same outcome of multiplication with different values of each of the multipliers. IMO 'Balance' in its more common meaning here in the forum rather refers to the ratio between Fx Fy Fz Fm and the SoP values, but not when you decide by your multiplication factors of how high or low your resulting signal is fed into the RAG/B/C module.
Therefore, according to your settings (with other settings it can be different):
Of course, when you lower your TF knob from 100 to 75, it doesn't matter if your in-car tireforces multiply e.g. Fx 0.10 x 1.00 (spindle master) = 0.10 or 0.20 x 0.5 = 0.10, by lowering TF from 100 to 75 you reduce the strength of the signal that goes into the RAC limiter by 25%. So you reduce your saturation by 25%, therefore achieving 25% more differentiation. ... yes, i would also assume that feels better.
The point is nevertheless your settings still produce more saturation than most other settings. (nothing bad or wrong about that!). But you doubt that?
Now that we agreed (?) on the math: when you compare your setting to others: choose one of the Fxyzm forces (usually the highest of your mix) multiply with master spindle scale multiply with TF, check on the result and compare. The value tells the signal strength that enters RAC and will be soft- limited by RAC to the value RAC is set to. No matter if you call that limiting, compression or compression leading to more or less saturation, there is no doubt about: the higher the tire force signals raise over the RAC value the more they get reduced, thus more compressed, thus loosing differentiation (details).
Example: (To keep it simple we use one force, and leave apart the fact that the different FXyzm channels can add and subtract to each other in the summarized master channel, so depending on your mix a relatively high single force can be counteracted by another force in a way that it rarely "jumps" in the critical high zone.
yours: Fz 120 x MSC 50 x TF 75 = 0.45
JS (ginetta): Fz 133 x MSC 32 x TF 75 = 0,32
so your setting is x1.4 higher (aporox 40%).
that makes much more of a difference than it looks on first sight.
(some people may think "what's the point, both settings keep the tire force < 1.00 anyway, so why bother with saturation...?!". though that is not true, the "real" value is higher.
i don't know why SMS didn't choose the multiplier values in a way that they had matched more intuitively, but i guess when they releaed the game they didn't expepct people digging in this quickly in the FFB details.)
to see that clearer, multiply the a.m. values with 5 (i explained that in posts before),
yours 0.45 x 5 = 2.25
JS 0.32 x 5 = 1.6
comression ratio (simplified math)
yours with RAC 0.75: 2,25/0.75 = 3
JS with RAC 0.85: 1.6/0.85 = 1.88
obviously much less compression with JS setting. as a matter of fact, acknowleding RACs true soft limiting i/o character, the difference gets even much more obvious:
yours: 2,25-0.75 = 1.5 "over RAC threshold value". soft limiting "hockeystick" i/o ratio compresses the over threshold part of the signal into the upper aprox 10 percent of the RAC value, thus 0.75 x 0.1 = 0.075. so here we go:
1.5 / 0.075 = 20.
so all tireforces resulting from Fz that are higher than 0.75, meaning 0.75 - 2.25, wich makes 66% of your entire tire force range will be compressed with the factor 20. in other words, while the lower third part of your forces stay more or less linear, the other higher two parts of your forces get processed with a compression ratio of approx 20.
so let's say your steering causes a change of Fz from e.g. absolutely 1.8 to 1.98 (10%), those 10 percent change is - due to compression factor 20 - changed into only 0.5 %! the difference of originally a force change of 10% to 0.5% will hardly be detectable any more. that's what i mean with 'less differentiation / less detail'. in other words lots of saturation.
now let's do the same math on the JS setting:
1.6 - 0.85 = 0.75 over RAC theshold
0.75 / 0.085 = 8.8
which makes quite a difference.
with your older settings (Fz 60 x SMS 100 x TF 100) you got a compression ratio of 30 affecting 66% of your tire forces.
and it must be clearly said, that my example didn't take into consideration that JS compression here is a theoretical worse case example, because practically his Fxyzm and SoP mix is done in a way that such "over RAC threshold" values won't occur, or only very quickly as "spikes".
it is not my intention here to put oil in the fire again about the "over saturation" discussion, neither do i judge the settings in terms of good or better ;-), i'm just trying to give people a help to understand why different settings can lead to very different FFB feelings, even if the single values of the "knobs" don't seem to look so much different.
Last not least, i hope my examples show, that saturation is neither good nor bad. Defining, tuning - and knowing - the degree of saturation is actually the king's and expert's way to balance (meant as the best compromise) as-much-relative-wheel-weight-as-possible with as-much-details-available-as possible. Both "poles" contradict each other, that's why best balance means here best compromise. The compromise itself is different to everybody's own liking. One may percept factually less details at a higher wheel weight as more detail-rich, than someone with factually more details but at less wheel weight. So, the entire individual "finesse" of tuning the FFB-character lies in the decision of how to carve the i/o shape to your own likings. And this "forming" of the input / output ratio mainly (we leave DeadZone Removal and Softclipper here apart) is done by the decision of a.) which ones of Fxyzm and b.) how far do i set one or more of the tire forces higher than the RAC value treshold.
Example: Allowing e.g. a "fast" Fz force (e.g. coming from curbs) to hit RAC high, thus Fz getting compressed a lot for a quick moment, is a totally different thing than to hit RAC high with Fy (being responsible for feeling the more constant lateral tire load) compromising your steering feedback while cornering due to a (too) strong saturation.
In so far, IMO, the often well meant saying "...however, what feels good to people is good for people", implicating "it's just all about 'balance, and balance is fine when there is no clipping'", doesn't fully reflect on the fact that there is a whole different world "within this balance".
Before you go off chasing that unicorn (I know it can be addictive) take a snapshot of your current settings, in case you need to go back to them. The new FFB might be theoretically better, but you might not be able to take the change ;)
Koza_Nostra
13-05-2016, 08:49
Didn't explain myself right. Mine was the same on my year old t300 and my new t300 with both fcms. My first t300 developed play the shaft so I sent it back.
Ok, fair enough then, won't bother with testing two different TXs. I was just wondering that if other people settings are in use, if it would feel different even if the same wheel is used, but due to the age, wear etc.. might feel different.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 11:07
me confused. first you confirm that its simple (distributive) math. what ermo http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/ and others say. e.g. Haiden with his prior post :D
than you say with lower TF FFB (oscillation, etc) got better.
by saying so you evoke the impression that it doesn't matter which of the scalers you change, as long as you don't change the 'balance', but if you lower TF you get a better FFB feel. so you are confirming the distributive math rule while denying it at the same time. :rolleyes:
can't we just come to a point to agree on what's said and proven in this and other threads in its utmost simplicity for the sake of the casual readers:
Fxyzm, SoP, spindle master scaler and SoP scaler, and TF are all linear multipliers. each is equal, none of them inferior oder superior. Well, given the understanding that Fx Fy Fz Fm must be looked at as single channels, that are funneled into the spindle master scaler, and SoP scaler, and those two funneled into the TF channel. similair to a mixing console, with channels, busses, and master channels. they have different names but they scale all linear (distributive) - as long as no 'non-linear' processer is put in between them.
this has nothing to do with 'balance'. instead you can use all three multilpiers in a row according to signal chain picture to achieve the same outcome of multiplication, with different values of each of the multipliers. 'Balance' in its more common meaning here on the forum "happens" at the ratio between Fx Fy Fz Fm and the SoP values, but not when you decide by your multiplication factors of how high or low your resulting signal is that is then fed into the RAG/B/C module.
Therefore:
Of course (with the rest of your setting), when you lower your TF knob from 100 to 75, it doesn't matter if your in-car tireforces multiply e.g. Fx 10 x 100 (spindle master) or 20 x 50, by lowering TF from 100 to 75 you reduce the strength of the signal that goes into the RAC limiter by 25%. So you reduce your saturation by 25%, therefore achieving 25% more differentiation. ... yes i would also assume that feels better. the point is nevertheless still your settings produce more saturation than most other settings. now that we agreed (?) on the math: when you compare your setting to others: choose one of the Fxyzm forces (usually the highest of your mix) multiply with master spindle scale multiply with TF, check on the result and compare. the value tells the signal strength that enters RAC and will be soft- limited by RAC to the value it is set. no matter if you call that limiting, compression or compression leading to more or less saturation, there is no doubt about that the higher the tire force signal is above the RAC value the more it gets reduced, thus more compressed, thus loosing differentiation (details).
example (to keep it simple we use one force, and leave apart the fact that the different FXyzm channels can sum up (add/subtractcto each other) in the summarized master channel, so depending on your mix a relatively high single force can be counteracted by another force in a way that it never or only rarely "jumps" in the critical high signal strengt area.)
yours: Fz 120 x MSC 50 x TF 75 = 0.45
JS (ginetta): Fz 133 x MSC 32 x TF 75 = 0,32
so your setting is x1.4 higher (aporox 40%).
that makes much more of a difference than it looks on first sight.
(some people may think "what's the point, both settings keep the tire force < 1.00 anyway, so why bother with saturation...?!". though that is not true, the "real" value is higher.
i don't know why SMS didn't choose the multiplier values in a way that they had matched more intuitively, but i guess when they releaed the game they didn't expepct people digging in this quickly in the FFB details.)
to see that clearer, multiply the a.m. values with 5 (i explained that in posts before),
yours 0.45 x 5 = 2.25
JS 0.32 x 5 = 1.6
comression ratio (simplified math)
yours with RAC 0.75: 2,25/0.75 = 3
JS with RAC 0.85: 1.6/0.85 = 1.88
obviously much less compression with JS setting. as a matter of fact, acknowleding RACs true soft limiting i/o character, the difference gets even much more obvious:
yours: 2,25-0.75 = 1.5 "over RAC threshold value". soft limiting "hockeystick" i/o ratio compresses the over threshold part of the signal into the upper aprox 10 percent of the RAC value, thus 0.75 x 0.1 = 0.075. so here we go:
1.5 / 0.075 = 20.
so all tireforces resulting from Fz that are higher than 0.75, meaning 0.75 - 2.25, wich makes 66% of your entire tire force range will be compressed with the factor 20. in other words, while the lower third part of your forces stay more or less linear, the other higher two parts of your forces get processed with a compression ratio of approx 20.
so let's say your steering causes a change of Fz from e.g. absolutely 1.8 to 1.98 (10%), those 10 percent change is - due to compression factor 20 - changed into only 0.5 %! the difference of originally a force change of 10% to 0.5% will hardly be detectable any more. that's what i mean with 'less differentiation / less detail'. in other words lots of saturation.
now let's do the same math on the JS setting:
1.6 - 0.85 = 0.75 over RAC theshold
0.75 / 0.085 = 8.8
which makes quite a difference.
with your older settings (Fz 60 x SMS 100 x TF 100) you got a compression ratio of 30 affecting 66% of your tire forces.
and it must be clearly said, that my example didn't take into consideration that JS compression here is a theoretical worse case example, because practically his Fxyzm and SoP mix is done in a way that such "over RAC threshold" values won't occur, or only very quickly as "spikes".
it is not my intention here to put oil in the fire again about the "over saturation" discussion, neither do i judge the settings in terms if good or better ;-), i'm just trying to give people a help to understand why different settings can lead to very different FFB feelings, even if the single values of the "knobs" don't seem to look so much different.
Great article!!! I Get this!!! I had Never Seen this before.
Quote from artile "It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars.
In mathematical terms it looks like this:
Tire Force * Spindle Master Scale * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz" End Quote
Tire Fore = Global in Car Master Scale!!! ***Mind Blowing Relelation*** Makes Every thing Crystal Clear Now!!!
Ok the Part that was Not Clearly understood Before and is Critical Information i had Never Seen Mentioned any where before is that " TF = Global Master Scale" Now it all Makes Sense:yes:
also I think you took My post the wrong way... I had already Conceeded that Reducing TF was Better... I just was suprised that as usual a last Minute Test Revealed that FA car Had No Sign of oscillation any more due to the Lower TF...
What is was Trying to make Note of was the Fact that i revered My settings, Car Masters and Fx,Etc settings and the Feel and Graph was identical and the same:yes: I had always debated the Fact that High or Low Masters didn't make a difference... Thats what i was pointing out in the Video. I Choose 100 car Masters because it leaves Greater Flexabality for fine tuning it leaves +99 or -99 for adjustment:yes:
BTW there is No fire to put oil on...Even if there is oil everywhere as long as No one post Hot Firey comments Nothing ignites:yes:
So yes Just incase its Not or was Not Clearly understood i Have and Do conceed the TF debate... i was being sincere when i said Haidens suggestion to reduce it was Golden....as i Mentioned i was getting Board with Pcars and My attention to detail was lapsing it took a bit of rousing to get Me to get back to it... LOL... Hey we are all Human it happens:yes:
But also the article does confirm that in car Master settings can be set 50, 100 or how ever you choose to set them because the Final output is determend by the TF setting:yes:
With all the Math being done it just becomes Sooo Much more Simple when it is Made Clear and Understood that TF is the Global in Car Master Scale setting... This also strengthens My belief that Mathematic Formulas are Not Needed... Once you have your Global Settings Right you just set the in Cars settings according to what you want to feel Most... and as Stated in My PDF you adjust the in Car Fx, Fy, SoP and Master Scales until the Car feels right to you.
Thanks that article puts everything on the Table so it ALL Makes sense .
That was the Blue Print I Have Been asking and Looking For!!! I will also Link that to the Front Page and in My PDF!!!
See a Little Debate Never Hurt... This article has is the answer to Many Many Quetions and Has Qwelled all doubts about how things work... If it were Not for the Debates you may have Never bought this article forth and I would still be Many un answered questions and doubts.
Thank for sharing this article 1000×!!!
Ok, fair enough then, won't bother with testing two different TXs. I was just wondering that if other people settings are in use, if it would feel different even if the same wheel is used, but due to the age, wear etc.. might feel different.
I would think with the quality of the wheels today it would be a long time before wear would be an issue.
i dunno... So i've been sitting here board... i decided to Flip My in car settings around...While I'm still playing around with TF 75
TF 75
RAG 1.00 (which is much lower than Most people set it)
RAB 0.08
RAC 0.75 ( also lower than most)
I flipped my in car settings ( these are my settings reversed i just didn't put Fz and Sop lat to 120... but i tested no setting over 100/1.00 needed still plenty of power:yes:
master scale 50
Fx 20
Fy 60
Fz 100
Mz 60
Sop scale 50
Sop lat 10
Sop Diff 100
Thing is they Both felt the same:confused: Shrugggs... really just Shruggs... i had done this before and just figured id check it again with Lower TF and RAC i cant remember what they were set to before last time i tried it... i know they were Higher for sure!!!
I'm using the Gt3 Ginetta because i don't drive that car so I'm pretty much in the blind how the car handles or react so i can not drive by instinct... I'm still here testing it to make sure I'm driving the same line even the graph reads 99.95% the same that's why I'm still testing to make sure I'm driving the same line.
So what is the whole point about the High Masters VS Low Masters Debate again:confused: these are the exact #s just reversed whats wrong here why is there No Notable Difference???
Edit: I'm just looking through random tweeks and these #'s are well within low in car masters specs...My RAG, RAC are lower and TF is in within specs or lower than some??? Explain???
You keep bringing up nothing over 100. So let me ask you this if the scale was set from zero to 100 instead of 0 to 200 would you look at it different? I see it as nothing more than the numbers sms chose because they wanted that many positions for adjustment. It doesn't scale differently after 100 it just gives you more room to balance things.
gotdirt410sprintcar
13-05-2016, 11:23
Yeap I flip my in car settings before like 5 months ago and you get the same feel. No way seriously... with say TF 20 FFB 100 pretty much same feel. I don't believe it... yes really but your getting satchyouration and you don't do it right.
Yeah but my math is better than yours you wait I got me some videos. You think I care about that yellow line my line is better than yours and what,damn right it's better than yours .https://youtu.be/chuyHxk3Zd8
This was a joke about the past two weeks and all I get is one like you guys are blah.
Bunga412
13-05-2016, 11:26
Another day and another drunken placebo effect. You shouldn't be able to change ffb sliders after 10 beers. The next day the cars feel like space ships.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 11:29
You keep bringing up nothing over 100. So let me ask you this if the scale was set from zero to 100 instead of 0 to 200 would you look at it different? I see it as nothing more than the numbers sms chose because they wanted that many positions for adjustment. It doesn't scale differently after 100 it just gives you more room to balance things.
Agree If it were limited to 100 i would set 50 so i could have +49 or -49 for adjustment... Read My above post... The article link posted by Tennenbaum is The Key!!! Its the Blue print i've been Looking for!!! I had Never seen it before.
TF= Global Master Scale!!! (as pertaining to It Governs the In Car Master)Thats a Mind Blowing Revelation!!! It all Majes sense Now but serves to confirm what i have always said... once you set your Global settings you adjust the in car Settings according to what you want to feel Most then you can adjust the weight per Car by + or - with the in Car Masters:yes: that has always been My theory... I even Note that in My PDF to adjust Masters per car until it feels right to you... I Choose 100 because it leaves +99 or -99 for adjustment
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 11:35
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/
This article posted by tennenbaum is the Key!!! Its the FFB Blue Print I Have Been Serching For!!!
Its like i walked 100 miles in the Desert and found a Glass of water!!!
TF =Global Master Scale!!! Meaning this is the Master for the in Car Masters!!! Mind Blowing Revelation!!!! it all Makes sense Now!!
tennenbaum
13-05-2016, 11:41
Great article!!! I Get this!!! I had Never Seen this before.
Quote from artile "It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars.
In mathematical terms it looks like this:
Tire Force * Spindle Master Scale * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz" End Quote
Tire Fore = Global in Car Master Scale!!! ***Mind Blowing Relelation*** Makes Every thing Crystal Clear Now!!!
Ok the Part that was Not Clearly understood Before and is Critical Information i had Never Seen Mentioned any where before is that " TF = Global Master Scale" Now it all Makes Sense:yes:
also I think you took My post the wrong way... I had already Conceeded that Reducing TF was Better... I just was suprised that as usual a last Minute Test Revealed that FA car Had No Sign of oscillation any more due to the Lower TF...
What is was Trying to make Note of was the Fact that i revered My settings, Car Masters and Fx,Etc settings and the Feel and Graph was identical and the same:yes: I had always debated the Fact that High or Low Masters didn't make a difference... Thats what i was pointing out in the Video. I Choose 100 car Masters because it leaves Greater Flexabality for fine tuning it leaves +99 or -99 for adjustment:yes:
BTW there is No fire to put oil on...Even if there is oil everywhere as long as No one post Hot Firey comments Nothing ignites:yes:
So yes Just incase its Not or was Not Clearly understood i Have and Do conceed the TF debate... i was being sincere when i said Haidens suggestion to reduce it was Golden....as i Mentioned i was getting Board with Pcars and My attention to detail was lapsing it took a bit of rousing to get Me to get back to it... LOL... Hey we are all Human it happens:yes:
But also the article does confirm that in car Master settings can be set 50, 100 or how ever you choose to set them because the Final output is determend by the TF setting:yes:
With all the Math being done it just becomes Sooo Much more Simple when it is Made Clear and Understood that TF is the Global in Car Master Scale setting... This also strengthens My belief that Mathematic Formulas are Not Needed... Once you have your Global Settings Right you just set the in Cars settings according to what you want to feel Most... and as Stated in My PDF you adjust the in Car Fx, Fy, SoP and Master Scales until the Car feels right to you.
Thanks that article puts everything on the Table so it ALL Makes sense .
That was the Blue Print I Have Been asking and Looking For!!! I will also Link that to the Front Page and in My PDF!!!
See a Little Debate Never Hurt... This article has is the answer to Many Many Quetions and Has Qwelled all doubts about how things work... If it were Not for the Debates you may have Never bought this article forth and I would still be Many un answered questions and doubts.
Thank for sharing this article 1000×!!!
glad ermo could do some good here, since the other trumpets' soft ballade was kind of overheard :D
Roger Prynne
13-05-2016, 11:50
I would have thought that you would have already known about TF being the master Grimey :confused:
Quote from the FFB PDF
Tire Force
FORCE FEEDBACK CALIBRATION
This is simply an overall multiplier on all of the input tire forces. Note that G forces, the input to Gut, are not scaled with this parameter. Use this parameter to scale for a controller overall.
Use SpindleMasterScale to scale per car or setup.
233021
When people were telling you about math formulas, this is what they were referring to... glad you are convinced to be honest. TF is CarMasterScale, with the difference that you can still fine-tune each car with the perCarMaster.
Tiberius_85
13-05-2016, 12:43
Well, I have to say that I find it incredible that it took Grimey so long to get the meaning of TF as a global multiplier. I thought it to be common knowledge since a long time, and as pointed out by Roger Prynne it is already stated in the quite old official guide.
And after months of arguing, Grimey is finally convinced. What a "severe birth" (a german saying, hope the meaning translates into english). ;)
And Grimey, your interpretation of RAC is correct for your specific settings, because almost all your forces are relatively large. For other users with lower strength in their input to the RA module, it works differently than you experience. This is what your misunderstanding with Haiden about RAC was all about. Your interpretation is correct only with respect to high input data, but not for Haiden's and others lower input data.
Also, the understanding of TF as a multiplier (which is a well-tested consensus) is the key to understand that there is no reason to limit any value to 100. It is only the result that matters. Example:
TF*Fwhatever = value
100*50 = 5000 (or .50 if all is interpreted as percentages)
30*150 = 4500 (or .45 if all is interpreted as percentages) is lower, even though one of the sliders is > 100
On a different topic: Tennenbaum, you said you mentioned a factor of 5 earlier (with respect to the numbers entering the RA module), can you please link to this post, I seem to have missed it?
Roger Prynne
13-05-2016, 12:59
^ Do you mean this one?
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620
Tiberius_85
13-05-2016, 13:15
I quickly scanned over the RA section of this post (tennenbaums's really excellent collection of information), but I couldn't find a reference to the factor of 5 I am looking for. - In relation to this part of his post from the last page:
to see that clearer, multiply the a.m. values with 5 (i explained that in posts before),
yours 0.45 x 5 = 2.25
JS 0.32 x 5 = 1.6
But while I'm at it, I have spotted that tennenbaum possibly has a typo in the following paragraph about RAB and actually means 0.03, .08 instead of 0.3 and 0.8, which seem very high. Or do you you actually mean it like written and it just seems strange to me, tennenbaum?
NEW 29.04.16 More testings confirmed that low RAB settings lead to a lighter, vivid wheel, while higher RAB (with values > 0.8) add more relative weight to the wheel with - generally speaking - more constant weight during cornering. While I liked RAB with a very low setting of 0.3 for quite a while, i then preferred a value between 0.6 and 0.8. For those who like to experiment, it's interesting to switch RA entirely off. You may like the analytic pureness, you read the tire load during cornering very detailed. Though without RA you will miss a bit "road feel" and FFB-vividness.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 13:16
glad ermo could do some good here, since the other trumpets' soft ballade was kind of overheard :D
I would have thought that you would have already known about TF being the master Grimey :confused:
Quote from the FFB PDF
233021
When people were telling you about math formulas, this is what they were referring to... glad you are convinced to be honest. TF is CarMasterScale, with the difference that you can still fine-tune each car with the perCarMaster.
Heres where i was Stuck at... I have always Viewed and still View the sliders as Volume controls... Turn them up or down until it feels good and thats that:yes:...
It was either always said or implied that because i use in car Masters 100 that i was wrong Ex: there are math problem in the thread that Have been posted as 100 × 4 = 400 where as 26 × 4= 106 ... I cant recall the last equation but the end result was 2600 or something like that...etc...but in any event it was stated that My Nubers were out of Specs and therefore would Not work... I have reversed My Masters Many times to test this and the feel and Graph was always the same... Therefore i could Not rationalize the Math that was being presented as the Key formula because it just did not add up based on feel and Graph display.
Now armed with the Knowledge and Confirmation that TF is the Global Scale that Governs the In Car Masters i can understand and process:yes: the Math Formula that has been given as a rule if thumb to base tweeks upon... This formula again as i have always debated is Not based on Game Data and Fact:no: But is Based on where the Maker of said Tweek has Chosen to set his In Car Masters as a Base point:yes: So yes I agree based on that Fact that Mathematic formulas can and will work... Its Not a Matter of Right or wrong Formula its a Matter of where you choose to set your TF:yes:
Edit: In Car Masters will set the Level of Saturation of FFB forces:yes: While the TF will set the Final output Level of these Forces:yes:
I Must Have Missed the point that TF =Global Master Scale for in Car Masters:indecisiveness:
Once again i Must Agree With Haiden on the Fact that there should be Clear Terminology when it comes to the settings and describing the way things work... the title TF and the description is very Vague and Misleading...It in No way Suggest or implies that it is the Global Scale for all in Car settings... But maybe im just slow:eagerness:LOL... That Fact is Very Clear to Me Now but im willing to bet that I am Not the only 1 that had a Misunderstanding of that Fact.
I feel like i just stepped out of the Matrix... LOL!!! Its all sooo Clear to Me Now.
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/
This article posted by tennenbaum is the Key!!! Its the FFB Blue Print I Have Been Serching For!!!
Its like i walked 100 miles in the Desert and found a Glass of water!!!
TF =Global Master Scale!!! Meaning this is the Master for the in Car Masters!!! Mind Blowing Revelation!!!! it all Makes sense Now!!
And all that time you had the water in you back pocket , lol
Tiberius_85
13-05-2016, 13:31
On a side note, I seldom post but I constantly follow this great thread. In the last 2 days I caught up with the last 3 weeks of activity here after a short pause on my side (OMG so much pages). Reading those pages was quite exhausting and I am very happy to see the discussion being fruitful in the end after I had to shake my head many times over the hassle between Haiden and Grimey. :)
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 13:34
On a side note, I seldom post but I constantly follow this great thread. In the last 2 days I caught up with the last 3 weeks of activity here after a short pause on my side (OMG so much pages). Reading those pages was quite exhausting and I am very happy to see the discussion being fruitful in the end after I had to shake my head many times over the hassle between Haiden and Grimey. :)
Good Debate is always a Good thing when it does Not turn into slander... We have Had Great debates in here but also because of the debates we have Made Great Progress:yes:
You can actually save the test results from FCM as well. In the force test dialog there is a checkbox - "Save test results to .csv file". This will save the the raw data so you can import it again later. :)
The last time i tried to do this, i couldn't import the data back. I must have done something wrong. I'll give it a go again.
Yeah that's definitely no good for the v2. There's an issue with the force test that has been reported by several users with that particular wheel. Until I can debug the problem, the only other option is to use wheelchecks log2 force test and import the resulting .csv file into FCM. You'll get totally different results with the correct data. Sorry about that.
The build in test of skoader´s FCM 1.2 tool doesn´t work with a CSW v2, you need "wheelcheck" to run the test routine and import this data to calculate with the tool.
There´s a difference between the old spreadsheet method and skoader´s latest version, here for comparison - CSW v2 - Dri = 3 (no drag), FF = 100
spreadsheet -- SK = 86, SR = 28, DRR = 0.05
FCM 1.2 -- SK = 81, SR = 34, DRR = 0.03
As you can see here the difference is not really that big..... I´m going to post more about in my thread.
Thanks! I'll give those corrected FCM1 1.2 values a shot today, but you're right. They aren't much different. My guess is, feel-wise, the slightly higher reduction will offset the slightly lower knee. It'll be interesting to see if I can detect any change in feel, or if it's too small to really perceive.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 14:31
Its all Clear Now:yes:
In Car Masters will set the Level of Saturation of FFB forces While the TF will set the Final output Level of these Forces.
Understanding TF = Global Master Scale was they Key to unlock the whole equation for Me.... Some How i was under the impression that TF just set Wheel weight... The Paradox is Now Clearly Now Made Totally Clear and Transparent for Me:yes: infact the FFB system is even much more simple than i previousely believed it to be.
Im willing to bet that I am Not the only 1 who did Not Fully understand that Fact.... Haiden/tenennbaum/ Poirqc/ JS i blame you... LOL... Why was this Never just put in such simple Terms before... LOL... But i could be just Slow to catch on...LOL... Shrugggs Very Happy that all the Debating Led to this eye opening Mind expanding Conclusion... IMO for Me It was all worth it:yes:
Well everything exept the Body scales... Hmmm...Maybe Next topic for debate:confused: any 1 care to takle that debate??? LOL
What do you mean by "set the final output level?" TF and the Master both influence/determine the final output. Adjustments to either will change the final output/level of saturation.
Taken from that page:
In mathematical terms it looks like this:
Tire Force * Spindle Master Scale * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz)
My interpretation is that TF is like a base value (a convenience for setting a level of force that works across all cars), and then the Master Scale is your fine-tuning knob, to deal with the cars at an individual level.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 15:06
What do you mean by "set the final output level?" TF and the Master both influence/determine the final output. Adjustments to either will change the final output/level of saturation.
Taken from that page:
In mathematical terms it looks like this:
Tire Force * Spindle Master Scale * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz)
My interpretation is that TF is like a base value (a convenience for setting a level of force that works across all cars), and then the Master Scale is your fine-tuning knob, to deal with the cars at an individual level.
Yes understood both settings determin final output but Tire force is set it and forget it...in Car Masters are the Variable or set on the Fly/Per Car settings.
So its in car to Masters to TF then to rest of FFB chain... the TF Governs the Final output because you cant change it on the Fly or per Car.
Yes understood both settings determin final output but Tire force is set it and forget it...in Car Masters are the Variable or set on the Fly/Per Car settings.
So its in car to Masters to TF then to rest of FFB chain... the TF Governs the Final output because you cant change it on the Fly or per Car.
That's correct, and I get what you're saying. Is there a reason we can't just state the flow like it's shown in the flowchart? I think that helps avoid confusion, since this is the chain flow most people are familiar with.
233021
Just a suggestion.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 16:14
Grimey, your interpretation of RAC is correct for your specific settings, because almost all your forces are relatively large. For other users with lower strength in their input to the RA module, it works differently than you experience. This is what your misunderstanding with Haiden about RAC was all about. Your interpretation is correct only with respect to high input data, but not for Haiden's and others lower input data.
Also, the understanding of TF as a multiplier (which is a well-tested consensus) is the key to understand that there is no reason to limit any value to 100.
Agree...
For Me using RAC(75) this way works well and i will stick with TF 75 or Lower with in Car Masters 100 because it leaves +99 or -99 Room for adjustment with in car Masters.
Very Happy it all Makes sense Now!!!
Yes There is No Need to limit the settings to 100/1.00 and Math Formulas can work but it only works based on where Maker of said tweek sets the in car masters etc.
Even if the built in wheel test of FCM is good, for most wheels, i suggest to run the test in wheelcheck because you can keep the results afterward. Whenever you want to play with FCM, you just have to import the data instead of having to run the test again.
Thanks for the tip. Being able to see the force curve was very helpful. I was able to get a much better cornering dynamic (tighter/faster=more weight), while preserving the slip feel. I've got SR narrowed down to 0.20 - 0.28. I'll update my settings when I get that dialed in. I now have SK set to 0.75. With that knee, SR=0.20 provides the best feel, immersion wise. It's a very firm wheel with good road feel, and has the best cornering dynamic (with regard to range of increasing force). On the other end, SR=0.28 sacrifices some firmness and road feel for more pronounced/detectable slip feel.
I may just end up splitting the difference (0.24). But I've only tried the new settings in the FA. After trying it in other cars, the choice might be more obvious.
I'll update my settings page later, but here are the current changes if anyone wants to try them.
DRR=0.03
SK=0.75
SR=0.20 - 0.28
tennenbaum
13-05-2016, 20:34
Well, I have to say that I find it incredible that it took Grimey so long to get the meaning of TF as a global multiplier. I thought it to be common knowledge since a long time, and as pointed out by Roger Prynne it is already stated in the quite old official guide.
And after months of arguing, Grimey is finally convinced. What a "severe birth" (a german saying, hope the meaning translates into english). ;)
And Grimey, your interpretation of RAC is correct for your specific settings, because almost all your forces are relatively large. For other users with lower strength in their input to the RA module, it works differently than you experience. This is what your misunderstanding with Haiden about RAC was all about. Your interpretation is correct only with respect to high input data, but not for Haiden's and others lower input data.
Also, the understanding of TF as a multiplier (which is a well-tested consensus) is the key to understand that there is no reason to limit any value to 100. It is only the result that matters. Example:
TF*Fwhatever = value
100*50 = 5000 (or .50 if all is interpreted as percentages)
30*150 = 4500 (or .45 if all is interpreted as percentages) is lower, even though one of the sliders is > 100
On a different topic: Tennenbaum, you said you mentioned a factor of 5 earlier (with respect to the numbers entering the RA module), can you please link to this post, I seem to have missed it?
Check those 2 post (there might be more...): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1256142&highlight=virtual#post1256142
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1272532&highlight=virtual#post1272532
tennenbaum
13-05-2016, 20:37
I quickly scanned over the RA section of this post (tennenbaums's really excellent collection of information), but I couldn't find a reference to the factor of 5 I am looking for. - In relation to this part of his post from the last page:
But while I'm at it, I have spotted that tennenbaum possibly has a typo in the following paragraph about RAB and actually means 0.03, .08 instead of 0.3 and 0.8, which seem very high. Or do you you actually mean it like written and it just seems strange to me, tennenbaum?
Thanks a lot for be attentive! You're right, it must 0.03, 0.08... I corrected my previous post.
GrimeyDog
13-05-2016, 21:12
Check those 2 post (there might be more...): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1256142&highlight=virtual#post1256142
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1272532&highlight=virtual#post1272532
tennenbaum once again sets things straight!!! tennenbaum you are the man!!!
tennenbaum
13-05-2016, 21:26
Its all Clear Now:yes:
In Car Masters will set the Level of Saturation of FFB forces While the TF will set the Final output Level of these Forces.
Understanding TF = Global Master Scale was they Key to unlock the whole equation for Me.... Some How i was under the impression that TF just set Wheel weight... The Paradox is Now Clearly Now Made Totally Clear and Transparent for Me:yes: infact the FFB system is even much more simple than i previousely believed it to be.
Im willing to bet that I am Not the only 1 who did Not Fully understand that Fact.... Haiden/tenennbaum/ Poirqc/ JS i blame you... LOL... Why was this Never just put in such simple Terms before... LOL... But i could be just Slow to catch on...LOL... Shrugggs Very Happy that all the Debating Led to this eye opening Mind expanding Conclusion... IMO for Me It was all worth it:yes:
Well everything exept the Body scales... Hmmm...Maybe Next topic for debate:confused: any 1 care to takle that debate??? LOL
TF also "comes before" RAG/B/C, just mentioning it, because with TF you influence the degree of saturation as well. At least when the multiplication result of Fxyzm, etc, x MSC x TF is higher than the value of RAC.
TF is part of the globals (menu), but that easily causes confusion... While you adjust TF in the globals, which seem to be "secondary processing stage", TF scales the in-car tire forces at a very early stage - before the processing tools RAG/B/C and/or SC do their work.
(Body scale with PS4 is still broken IMO :D
tennenbaum
13-05-2016, 21:41
^ Do you mean this one?
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620
:D Thanks! I spoke about the "virtual factor 5" here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1256142&highlight=virtual#post1256142, http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1272532&highlight=virtual#post1272532
i didn't want to display my idea about that "factor 5" prominently, because it raises more questions. And it only makes sense when you consider the "invisible headroom" to be existent. Tricky stuff, can be controversial. Difficult (for me) to explain it with few words ;-)
GrimeyDog
14-05-2016, 00:03
TF also "comes before" RAG/B/C, just mentioning it, because with TF you influence the degree of saturation as well. At least when the multiplication result of Fxyzm, etc, x MSC x TF is higher than the value of RAC.
TF is part of the globals (menu), but that easily causes confusion... While you adjust TF in the globals, which seem to be "secondary processing stage", TF scales the in-car tire forces at a very early stage - before the processing tools RAG/B/C and/or SC do their work.
(Body scale with PS4 is still broken IMO :D
As soon as i understood that TF was the Global version of Spindle Master Scale i fully understood its place in the FFB Chain... It all makes sense now:yes:
The last time i tried to do this, i couldn't import the data back. I must have done something wrong. I'll give it a go again.
You might be thinking of the export option. This will write out details about your modified force curves and can't be imported - it's in a different format and is really only useful if you want a closer look at the resulting numbers. To save the raw test results (which can be imported) you need to click the checkbox in the force test dialog itself.
Oh and good stuff Grimey! :)
I want to post stuff about Scoops and the BB system is telling me i want to bypass the profanity filter! :mad: :D
Thanks for the tip. Being able to see the force curve was very helpful. I was able to get a much better cornering dynamic (tighter/faster=more weight), while preserving the slip feel. I've got SR narrowed down to 0.20 - 0.28. I'll update my settings when I get that dialed in. I now have SK set to 0.75. With that knee, SR=0.20 provides the best feel, immersion wise. It's a very firm wheel with good road feel, and has the best cornering dynamic (with regard to range of increasing force). On the other end, SR=0.28 sacrifices some firmness and road feel for more pronounced/detectable slip feel.
I may just end up splitting the difference (0.24). But I've only tried the new settings in the FA. After trying it in other cars, the choice might be more obvious.
I'll update my settings page later, but here are the current changes if anyone wants to try them.
DRR=0.03
SK=0.75
SR=0.20 - 0.28
I think that's the intent behind Scoop.
For a long while, i understood what Scoops did, from a mathematical standpoint, but i never really stumbled upon a value that would make the slip feel express itself more. The ingame tooltip is mathematicaly correct (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=200469&d=1431075822), witch is the same as the official guide:
Scoop
Removed the first paragraph, it seems it contains censored material! :D
So what scoop does is reduce lower forces more and high forces less, thereby increasing the
slope of force where some devices reduce the slope of force. Since devices seem to do this
in two more or less linear regimes, with a knee in between, this is how this component works
(in the opposite direction so as to counter the wheel).
ScoopKnee (Scoop Knee)
The input force level where the knee is at. If this is 0.0, this component is turned off.
ScoopReduction (Scoop Reduction)
The input force reduction below the knee. Above the knee, the force slope is increased such
that at 1.0 input force, the output force is 1.0.
But there's a monkey wrench righ here:
Scoop
Over time I’ve found 0.7 to be a good Scoop Knee and 0.15 a good Scoop Reduction. This
provides a nice boost of high force feel in consumer wheels. Since we are doing that here, I’ll
try that. (As of this writing, they also happen to be the defaults on consumer wheels).
OK, so that is really good for this wheel.
When you take the mathematical meaning of Scoops, and apply it to the bold sentense above, it make sense from a logical standpoint. But from my view, it doesn't actually translate into something useful for driving. Scoops don't actually create more torque out of a wheel. Even if i have a completely different wheel than you, i observed the same effect out of Scoops in the end.
I would phrase it like that:
Scoops
This tool is used to strike a balance between road feel / turn ins and feel of understeering(going past max slip angle). The more you tame road feel / turn ins, the more prononced the slip angle will be. The minimum and maximum forces stay the same, you modulate the balance between.
Scoop Knee:
As you move this up, you'll widen how much road feel / turn ins get weaker.
Scoop Reduction:
As you move this up, road feel / turn ins will get weaker. You'll progressively have a better understeer feeling.
Before getting a better understanding of the feeling of going past max slip angle, i wrote the following:
Without moving the knee:
More Scoop Reduction = Less road feel
Less Scoop Reduction = More road feel
Without moving the reduction:
More Scoop Knee = More road feel
Less Scoop Knee = Less road feel
I wonder how i could write about the understeering side of things.
Lucky me I got to experience just about every problem everyone complains about in a one week period. WTF? Whites load pink was the start that was new,Loss of ffb , couldn't use the 49c at all in a race but it worked fine in practice the wheel just shook violently as soon as the race loaded tried that on 4 different tracks over two different days , game would visibly speed up and slow down like warp speed. So now I can delete it again and put all jacks settings back in. Luckily I didn't really start a career yet. Good thing I really like this game.
gotdirt410sprintcar
14-05-2016, 03:45
Lucky me I got to experience just about every problem everyone complains about in a one week period. WTF? Whites load pink was the start that was new,Loss of ffb , couldn't use the 49c at all in a race but it worked fine in practice the wheel just shook violently as soon as the race loaded tried that on 4 different tracks over two different days , game would visibly speed up and slow down like warp speed. So now I can delete it again and put all jacks settings back in. Luckily I didn't really start a career yet. Good thing I really like this game.
And that is a nice way of putting it I have to jump back on and see what all the fuss hmm is about. I will read threw a few pages back. But i truly believe FFB is figured out now other than body stuff I think we need to dig out all the findings and make a thread for it of what poirc has said Tennenbaum haiden, and that Drunken punken grimdog jk yo.
Just the good stuff I would do it I don't no how to move the stuff just for me too go back and see shoot.
Well thanks everyone for the great post awesome as always.
I think that's the intent behind Scoop.
For a long while, i understood what Scoops did, from a mathematical standpoint, but i never really stumbled upon a value that would make the slip feel express itself more.
When you take the mathematical meaning of Scoops, and apply it to the bold sentense above, it make sense from a logical standpoint. But from my view, it doesn't actually translate into something useful for driving. Scoops don't actually create more torque out of a wheel. Even if i have a completely different wheel than you, i observed the same effect out of Scoops in the end.
I think it's easier when you're looking at the tool. The quicker the slope up from the knee to max, the more pronounced the slip feel will be. But the more you move toward linearity, the more gradual that slope becomes, there fore, the less pronounced the slip feel. For me, it's useful because, I can feel the force resistance as it starts to slide down the slope and it's a tactile sense of understeer. Without it, I tend to burn up my tires.
Lucky me I got to experience just about every problem everyone complains about in a one week period. WTF? Whites load pink was the start that was new,Loss of ffb , couldn't use the 49c at all in a race but it worked fine in practice the wheel just shook violently as soon as the race loaded tried that on 4 different tracks over two different days , game would visibly speed up and slow down like warp speed. So now I can delete it again and put all jacks settings back in. Luckily I didn't really start a career yet. Good thing I really like this game.
Don't feel bad. I've been having more FFB and sound loss incidents at the start of sessions since 9.0. I had two careers going, but decided to just reinstall anyway. Got everything install, calibrated, and button mapped. Then started my first session, came out of the pits, and didn't have sound or FFB. The very. First. Session.
It was like the game's way of giving me the middle finger, while laughing at my attempt to solve the problem. :smiley_simmons:
tennenbaum
14-05-2016, 08:42
I think that's the intent behind Scoop.
For a long while, i understood what Scoops did, from a mathematical standpoint, but i never really stumbled upon a value that would make the slip feel express itself more. The ingame tooltip is mathematicaly correct (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=200469&d=1431075822), witch is the same as the official guide:
But there's a monkey wrench righ here:
When you take the mathematical meaning of Scoops, and apply it to the bold sentense above, it make sense from a logical standpoint. But from my view, it doesn't actually translate into something useful for driving. Scoops don't actually create more torque out of a wheel. Even if i have a completely different wheel than you, i observed the same effect out of Scoops in the end.
I would phrase it like that:
Scoops
This tool is used to strike a balance between road feel / turn ins and feel of understeering(going past max slip angle). The more you tame road feel / turn ins, the more prononced the slip angle will be. The minimum and maximum forces stay the same, you modulate the balance between.
Scoop Knee:
As you move this up, you'll widen how much road feel / turn ins get weaker.
Scoop Reduction:
As you move this up, road feel / turn ins will get weaker. You'll progressively have a better understeer feeling.
Before getting a better understanding of the feeling of going past max slip angle, i wrote the following:
Without moving the knee:
More Scoop Reduction = Less road feel
Less Scoop Reduction = More road feel
Without moving the reduction:
More Scoop Knee = More road feel
Less Scoop Knee = Less road feel
I wonder how i could write about the understeering side of things.
Always good to refer to poirqc's opening post:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1049991&viewfull=1#post1049991
Graphs are not everybody's best friend. But when you get used to picture the relationship between input and output, defined by the i/o curve, it's usually the fastest way to develop a fundamental understanding what the different modules do to the signal. And how these changes affect soft terms like "road feel", "relative and absolute wheel weight", "responsiveness", "slip fee", etc.
I/O Graphs in X-Y axis coordinates:
x-axis = Input = tire forces
y-axis = Output = processed signal by RAC, SC, Scoop, SG. Output is what goes to the wheel.
Between last operator SG and the wheel is only the "volume knob", aka ingame-FFB Master, aka GM FFB. (Note: different with Fantatec wheels).
All scalers
(aka "knobs", "sliders", "multipliers", "operators")
of the first stage with its linear multipliers
Fxyzm, SoP, spindel master scale , TF*
and the scalers of the second stage (globals) with their operation modules (OPs) that can alter the signal in non-linear ways
RAG/B/C
Softclipper (SCHI/SCFO)
Scoop (SK/SR)
SG
work together.
(*you find TF (Tire Force) in the globals section, but check out the signal chain picture, so you better consider TF to be part of the "first stage".)
Finally the I/O curve is the result of such a chain of scalers, where multiplier after multiplier scale the signal.
Everything said in all the posts can be explained using and picturing the I/O curve.
Example (with the red line graph below): Lower the Scoop knee , thus moving the knee a bit closer to 0 - but keeping SR = 0,25, the I/O curve/line before the knee becomes more horizontal, therefore more flat. The result: The lower input forces "scale" to relatively even lower output forces. Exactly what poirc says above: "Less Scoop Knee = Less road feel". Because "less road feel" describes the fact, that all the little forces mostly caused by Fz due to little bumps and cracks on the track are getting reduced, when the flat i/o curve translate such low small forces into even smaller forces.
Now, move the knee up*, and your I/O curve/line before the knee gets steeper, less flat. The result, lower tire input forces scale (translate) into relatively a bit stronger output forces than before.
*When i say "move the knee up", it means: Move the knee horizontally to the right of x-axis, and at the same time vertically upwards on the y-axis, while keeping the vertical y-distance of SR = 0.25 from the black/white/broken "linear-line". So the SR value (e.g. 0.25) always expresses the distance between the point where the knee is on the x-axis and the according point above the knee on the linear-line.
In other words: the value of SK expresses the x-axis-position of the knee, and SR expresses the value of how much lower the knee sits vertically measured under the-linear line
For most of you this is a non-brainer, but for people not being used to coordinate systems it can be tricky.
Speaking in general and sloppy: A curve/line that is rather "flat/horizontal" translates input to output in a way that even great changes ("deltas") of the input forces translate into relatively smaller changes of the output. In contrary: rather steeper, more vertical curve/lines scale even small input changes into relatively larger output changes. If we talk about an I/O curve, a curve or line is more or less the same. Imagine the curve as many little lines put together...
After a while you get used to putting input and output always into relation in front of your inner eye, depending on which FFB sliders you manipulate. Then things become very logical and transparent (besides RAG) :)
233053
I get what you are saying, but aren't we working with the Blue line? I never paid attention to the red one.
Always good to refer to poirqc's opening post:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1049991&viewfull=1#post1049991
Graphs are not everybody's best friend. But when you get used to picture the relationship between input and output, defined by the i/o curve, it's usually the fastest way to develop a fundamental understanding what the different modules do to the signal. And how these changes affect soft terms like "road feel", "relative and absolute wheel weight", "responsiveness", "slip fee", etc.
I/O Graphs in X-Y axis coordinates:
x-axis = Input = tire forces
y-axis = Output = processed signal by RAC, SC, Scoop, SG. Output is what goes to the wheel.
Between last operator SG and the wheel is only the "volume knob", aka ingame-FFB Master, aka GM FFB. (Note: different with Fantatec wheels).
All scalers
(aka "knobs", "sliders", "multipliers", "operators")
of the first stage with its linear multipliers
Fxyzm, SoP, spindel master scale , TF*
and the scalers of the second stage (globals) with their operation modules (OPs) that can alter the signal in non-linear ways
RAG/B/C
Softclipper (SCHI/SCFO)
Scoop (SK/SR)
SG
work together.
(*you find TF (Tire Force) in the globals section, but check out the signal chain picture, so you better consider TF to be part of the "first stage".)
Finally the I/O curve is the result of such a chain of scalers, where multiplier after multiplier scale the signal.
Everything said in all the posts can be explained using and picturing the I/O curve.
So, we don't know how RAG/B/C effect the graph line from linear ?
Now i can see the scoops and clippers affect
Example (with the red line graph below): Lower the Scoop knee , thus moving the knee a bit closer to 0 - but keeping SR = 0,25, the I/O curve/line before the knee becomes more horizontal, therefore more flat. The result: The lower input forces "scale" to relatively even lower output forces. Exactly what poirc says above: "Less Scoop Knee = Less road feel". Because "less road feel" describes the fact, that all the little forces mostly caused by Fz due to little bumps and cracks on the track are getting reduced, when the flat i/o curve translate such low small forces into even smaller forces.
Now, move the knee up*, and your I/O curve/line before the knee gets steeper, less flat. The result, lower tire input forces scale (translate) into relatively a bit stronger output forces than before.
*When i say "move the knee up", it means: Move the knee horizontally to the right of x-axis, and at the same time vertically upwards on the y-axis, while keeping the vertical y-distance of SR = 0.25 from the black/white/broken "linear-line". So the SR value (e.g. 0.25) always expresses the distance between the point where the knee is on the x-axis and the according point above the knee on the linear-line.
In other words: the value of SK expresses the x-axis-position of the knee, and SR expresses the value of how much lower the knee sits vertically measured under the-linear line
For most of you this is a non-brainer, but for people not being used to coordinate systems it can be tricky.
Speaking in general and sloppy: A curve/line that is rather "flat/horizontal" translates input to output in a way that even great changes ("deltas") of the input forces translate into relatively smaller changes of the output. In contrary: rather steeper, more vertical curve/lines scale even small input changes into relatively larger output changes. If we talk about an I/O curve, a curve or line is more or less the same. Imagine the curve as many little lines put together...
After a while you get used to putting input and output always into relation in front of your inner eye, depending on which FFB sliders you manipulate. Then things become very logical and transparent (besides RAG) :)
233053
So now i can see what effect the scoops and clippers are having on my wheel is there a way to see the RAG/B/C affect ?
Do you thing running the wheelcheck with dri set to 3 will have the same impact as having the PWM's on in the globals ?
Looking at the FCM graph will always be 100 times better than any catch phrase i could come up to, from a mathematical standpoint. :) But someone new, launching the app, pressing the calculate button, may say:"What does this drinks on a saturday night?!"
In the end, we use Scoops to try to acheive a better driving experience.(Not saying it's mendatory, someone can surely have a working template without it). I was just trying to explain it simply. :)
tennenbaum
14-05-2016, 13:26
I get what you are saying, but aren't we working with the Blue line? I never paid attention to the red one.
The blue line is what you get when you set your SK/SR values right. The red curve/line shows the scaling effect of your SK and SR setting.
The red line (with the knee, here as an example SK 0.52 and SR 0.25) represents the scaling (over the range from 0.00 - 1.00) that the knee setting does to all forces. The blue line is the result of the multiplication of the SK/SR curve/line and the non linear wheel reaction.
Non linear wheel reaction means, you feed it with e.g. 0.5 but it doesn't spit out a mechanical torque strength of 50% of its maximum motor strength, but 57%. So a little bit more than it should. When the wheel receives 0.7 as input, the wheel doesn't reproduce 70% of its max mechanical torque strength, but only 65%. So a little bit less than it should. So (cheaper) wheels have a characteristic i/o curve by itself: Usually they amplify mid forces a bit more, while being less responsive to very low and higher forces. They can't "differentiate" well at low and high ranges. That's why the curve representing such non-linear behavior looks like a convex shape curve instead of straight more or less 45 degree line. (45 degree or not depends on the X, Y ratio.) However straight lines in normal x/y coordinate system usual stand for "linearity".
So put the the wheel i/o curve into the picture in your imagination, or use a pen ;-), than multiply each y-value of the wheel curve with the y-value of the red curve/line (measuring the different y-values at the position of identical x-values) and you receive the blue curve. Thus the red non-linear curve/line compensating the non-linear wheel response curve in such a way that the result, the blue line gets closer to be linear. Which was the purpose in the first place.
Despite the goal to linearize your wheel, you can see you can use SK/SR for totally different purposes: If you're more interested in more details in the higher forces (small changes/deltas shall translate to bigger changes at the wheel) , let's say for forces that lay between 0.8 and 1.00, you set SK to 0.8 and SR e.g. to 0.5. ...might feel weird, with only half road feel, and very nervous* during cornering but why not ;-).
*depending on how much saturation you got, wanted or unwanted, from other tools. Saturation together with high SK and SR settings can lead to un-predictive feelings.
233072
Don't feel bad. I've been having more FFB and sound loss incidents at the start of sessions since 9.0. I had two careers going, but decided to just reinstall anyway. Got everything install, calibrated, and button mapped. Then started my first session, came out of the pits, and didn't have sound or FFB. The very. First. Session.
It was like the game's way of giving me the middle finger, while laughing at my attempt to solve the problem. :smiley_simmons:
Exactly. I didn't have a lot of time to play this week but everytime I did something was wrong. The colors loading wrong was the start of it. I just figured it was a fluke because I havent really had many issues other then when an update comes out. I really wanted to race the 49c last night but noooo. First time ever for no ffb last night. I think the only bug I didn't get this week was the grinding.lol
Jack Spade
14-05-2016, 13:32
So now i can see what effect the scoops and clippers are having on my wheel is there a way to see the RAG/B/C affect ?
Do you thing running the wheelcheck with dri set to 3 will have the same impact as having the PWM's on in the globals ?
Some months ago I asked Andrew Weber a similar question over in the PC 2 forum as he was suggesting to use PWM instead of Dri on Fanatec wheels,
unfortunately he did not answer. My theory is, "drag" on or off anywhere in the chain has a similar impact on linearity of Fanatec wheels, but I
could be wrong. Interestingly my global setting suggestions, with/without PWM/Dri/ Scoops do not feel much apart from each other though settings
are different. Seems the non linear scaling of Steering Gain (145 vs. 105) finally is compensating each one.
Didn't someone recently say we were done?lol You guys have been busy!
tennenbaum
14-05-2016, 13:50
Looking at the FCM graph will always be 100 times better than any catch phrase i could come up to, from a mathematical standpoint. :) But someone new, launching the app, pressing the calculate button, may say:"What does this drinks on a saturday night?!"
In the end, we use Scoops to try to acheive a better driving experience.(Not saying it's mendatory, someone can surely have a working template without it). I was just trying to explain it simply. :)
:D:D I'm so aware of this dilemma. That's why i tried to give a little bit help with the basics of in/output relationship. Recently it came to my mind, that even while these graphs seem to be so prominent and so many people work with the wheel-checker, it doesn't mean that the signal processing (leading to the graphs) is always fully "digested". During last week i realized that people intuitively tend to approach the FFB sliders rather like tools to add something to something else. Like adding layers on layers, piling up forces. But in reality pCars' FFB doesn't work like that. Sure, multiplication is the same as addition done a couple of times, but basically the entire system is much easier to understand if one sees the slider as multiplicators that can also lower values, even while never being minus (but <1.00). It need's a bit practice to think in "scalings", instead of "additions... but it's worth it.
Bottom line: Good that you're always capable to translate the more abstract stuff into comprehensive wordings!!
With your joint efforts and lowering SK, I beat poir.qc's time at Watkins Glen Short with the Huayra ;)
There is still time to be had. But withing a few laps, I improved my time a little. This does feel better now.
:D:D I'm so aware of this dilemma. That's why i tried to give a little bit help with the basics of in/output relationship. Recently it came to my mind, that even while these graphs seem to be so prominent and so many people work with the wheel-checker, it doesn't mean that the signal processing (leading to the graphs) is always fully "digested". During last week i realized that people intuitively tend to approach the FFB sliders rather like tools to add something to something else. Like adding layers on layers, piling up forces. But in reality pCars' FFB doesn't work like that. Sure, multiplication is the same as addition done a couple of times, but basically the entire system is much easier to understand if one sees the slider as multiplicators that can also lower values, even while never being minus (but <1.00). It need's a bit practice to think in "scalings", instead of "additions... but it's worth it.
Bottom line: Good that you're always capable to translate the more abstract stuff into comprehensive wordings!!
Teamwork! :D on a side note, there's a deadlink in your latest update:
EDIT NEW 14.05.16: How to read the I/O curve in an X-Y axis coordinate system.
Nothing new here for the experts. Though, possibly some help for newcomers.
Even while it became quite popular to check the wheel linearity with "wheelchecker" and skoaders and dullivans excel sheet based I/O curve viewer http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...=1#post1049991,
With your joint efforts and lowering SK, I beat poir.qc's time at Watkins Glen Short with the Huayra ;)
There is still time to be had. But withing a few laps, I improved my time a little. This does feel better now.
Challenge accepted! :p
Edit - 15 mins later, i'm .5 sec below you Konnos. :cool:
Doing TT with FacetrackNOIR is alot harder than with a fixed camera. The chicane make the view swerve!
Edit#2 - Braging time, 1.1 sec now. :D I gotta confess i changed tires(from med to softs) and tune the base setup a bit.
GrimeyDog
14-05-2016, 16:39
And that is a nice way of putting it I have to jump back on and see what all the fuss hmm is about. I will read threw a few pages back. But i truly believe FFB is figured out now other than body stuff I think we need to dig out all the findings and make a thread for it of what poirc has said Tennenbaum haiden, and that Drunken punken grimdog jk yo.
Just the good stuff I would do it I don't no how to move the stuff just for me too go back and see shoot.
Well thanks everyone for the great post awesome as always.
It was All worth It:yes: Every page! Light Has now been Shed on Darkness No more Opinion's, No More Theory,the true Mathematical Equation has been Revealed:yes: False Teachings, Opinion VS Facts Debates can Now be put to Rest...
The Blue print I have beem searching for!!!
"Physics-related FFB knobs
First of all, you have to understand the FFB subsystem in pCARS as a set of 'sources' or 'channels' which can be adjusted individually to both change and augment the FFB signal.
Definitions
Fx = longitudinal force component (braking)
Fy = lateral force component (sideways force when cornering)
Fz = vertical force component (weight transfer, bumps)
Mz = torque around the vertical (Z) axis due to e.g. caster, King Pin Inclination, scrub radius etc.
The numbers represent percent, so 100 = 100% = 1.0
Essentially, the FFB starts where the forces acting on the contact patch through the suspension geometry reach the steering rack. If you leave the relative Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz at 100/100/100/100 respectively, you effectively haven't transformed the FFB matrix at all and you get EXACTLY what is transferred through the suspension geometry from the contact patch. You can consider this the 'pure' FFB signal.
The Spindle Master Scale simply scales the Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz transformation matrix by a scalar (0 - 200 or 0.0 - 2.0) on a per car basis. If you leave it at 100 (1.0), no scaling is introduced since 1.0 is the multiplicative identy. To give an example, having Fx = Fy = Fz = Mz = 50 and Master Spindle Scale = 200 is the same as having Fx = Fy = Fz = Mz = 100 and Master Spindle Scale = 100. Please take a moment to reflect on that.
Splitting up Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz like that is useful when you want to make a 'recipe' where you favour one 'flavour' of the FFB over the others. If you want to emphasize the torque difference between the front wheels under braking, you would need to add more parts of the longitudinal component Fx compared to the other parts.
Fx examples:
a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.
Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.
It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars.
In mathematical terms it looks like this:
Tire Force * Spindle Master Scale * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz)"
I have been taking a few minutes to reflect on this having More than a few drinks:very_drunk::very_drunk::very_drunk: it was all worth it:yes:
Pcars is a open FFB system, your formula can be what ever you want it to be as long as you follow the Blue print!!! its all just a #'s balancing game as i have always debated:yes:
IJS there is no right or wrong but if you want to be right follow me:victorious: Aaaah ha ha haaa(Evil Laugh) LOL... Embrace the Dark side:p
GrimeyDog
14-05-2016, 16:42
Hmmm really Time callenge??? Watkins Sort well well what have we here??? what car??? What times??? Hmmm.
Hmmm really Time callenge??? Watkins Sort well well what have we here??? what car??? What times??? Hmmm.
Glen Short - Pagani Huayra (http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1590386668&vehicle=2232288208)
Settings have been updated.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1239906&viewfull=1#post1239906
I ran WheelCheck, and then imported the results into FCM 1.2. I didn't like the recommended DRR (0.02), but I was able to get a nice SK/SR, using the visual graph.
SK=0.80
SR=0.24
Setting SK below 0.80 didn't feel bad. There was just a little too much saturation for me. If you like a heavier road feel, try SK values between 0.75 and 0.78, coupled with SR values between 0.20 and 0.24. Lowering either of these values will strengthen road feel, and may also improve the dynamic cornering weight, because they expand the input axis of the upper force range. The trade off is, the lower you go with these values, the less pronounced the feeling of slip and grip transition becomes, as the expanded upper range makes the transition from the higher to lower force more gradual.
Back to racing. :)
GrimeyDog
14-05-2016, 18:42
I Must say as a Collective Group We are Great!!! We Have Every Angle Coverd!!! From Hands on Lap after Lap Testing to Mathematical Testing to the People who don't Tweek at all but will Try the posted settings and Give opinion about how it Feels... as a Group We Have it all!!!
Even through the Bickering Knowledge is Gained one way or the other.... Thanks to All that Read Post share Ideas and Knowlege... Even thanks to all that Read this Thread and don't Post... We Know your there...post and just say Hello:yes: It is for you!!! Us Sim Racers united as 1 that we Tweek, Test, Bicker, Talk FFB Post and Compare... Kudos to All:yes:
We Have Truly Lived up to the Name of this Group.
Thanx GrimeyDog
gotdirt410sprintcar
14-05-2016, 18:57
Could you get a good SC drr from doing it with out using the wheel check Reason I say that it seems drr is between 0.00-0.05 for the most part if you have a csv2 t500 t300. G29 lower end wheel s\older probably should run the wheel check. I think I could pick from different SC's from anyone and start there my wheel is not but 6 months old Xmas is when I got.
Could you get a good SC drr from doing it with out using the wheel check Reason I say that it seems drr is between 0.00-0.05 for the most part if you have a csv2 t500 t300. G29 lower end wheel s\older probably should run the wheel check. I think I could pick from different SC's from anyone and start there my wheel is not but 6 months old Xmas is when I got.
At the end of the day, it comes down to how it feels for you, so sure. My old Scoop settings were taken Jack's globals and observing the number of people using the same or very similar values. I was happy with those settings, and would still be using them, if I hadn't tried the FCM tool. The values it recommended felt really good, but I ended up doing some fine tuning for my personal taste. Being able to see the curve in the graph, just made it easier for me to see which direction I needed to go and zero in on the sweet spot. I'm sure it's possible to dial it in without the tool, but I suspect it will take longer to sift through the options. Depending on your wheel and globals, there could be quite a few combinations that produce a good feel. Personally, I don't think I would have come across this particular SK/SR combination without the tools. Having a starting point was critical, and being able to visually observe how the changes affected the curve was key to narrowing the range of options. That turned it into a mere couple hours of work that just felt like tuning.
At the end of the day, it comes down to how it feels for you, so sure. My old Scoop settings were taken Jack's globals and observing the number of people using the same or very similar values. I was happy with those settings, and would still be using them, if I hadn't tried the FCM tool. The values it recommended felt really good, but I ended up doing some fine tuning for my personal taste. Being able to see the curve in the graph, just made it easier for me to see which direction I needed to go and zero in on the sweet spot. I'm sure it's possible to dial it in without the tool, but I suspect it will take longer to sift through the options. Depending on your wheel and globals, there could be quite a few combinations that produce a good feel. Personally, I don't think I would have come across this particular SK/SR combination without the tools. Having a starting point was critical, and being able to visually observe how the changes affected the curve was key to narrowing the range of options. That turned it into a mere couple hours of work that just felt like tuning.
You just summed up the Baseline thread idea! :)
inthebagbud
14-05-2016, 19:49
Settings have been updated.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1239906&viewfull=1#post1239906
I ran WheelCheck, and then imported the results into FCM 1.2. I didn't like the recommended DRR (0.02), but I was able to get a nice SK/SR, using the visual graph.
SK=0.80
SR=0.24
Setting SK below 0.80 didn't feel bad. There was just a little too much saturation for me. If you like a heavier road feel, try SK values between 0.75 and 0.78, coupled with SR values between 0.20 and 0.24. Lowering either of these values will strengthen road feel, and may also improve the dynamic cornering weight, because they expand the input axis of the upper force range. The trade off is, the lower you go with these values, the less pronounced the feeling of slip and grip transition becomes, as the expanded upper range makes the transition from the higher to lower force more gradual.
Back to racing. :)
Wierd I ran the wheelcheckler with dri off and on wheel ffb at 30 ish and the SK settings came back as zero but with a much larger deadzone , so raised the deadzone and put Scoop settings to zero and really liked then
Could you get a good SC drr from doing it with out using the wheel check Reason I say that it seems drr is between 0.00-0.05 for the most part if you have a csv2 t500 t300. G29 lower end wheel s\older probably should run the wheel check. I think I could pick from different SC's from anyone and start there my wheel is not but 6 months old Xmas is when I got.
To be fair, when you understand how the different tools work, you could use them by feel and still get a good setup. Grimey's is a good example of that.
Wierd I ran the wheelcheckler with dri off and on wheel ffb at 30 ish and the SK settings came back as zero but with a much larger deadzone , so raised the deadzone and put Scoop settings to zero and really liked then
I had DRI=Off, but @Wheel FF=100. It didn't recommend any Scoop. I assume because the curve was close to linear (0.9988). I added Scoop, because I like the way it accentuates slip feel. :)
GrimeyDog
14-05-2016, 22:58
https://youtu.be/KkiY5ZNalP8
Pagani Huayra watkins short 1:10.6xx
i just beat that time too got a 1:10.5xx i know i can get it into the 1:09.xxx with a little more time to get used to the car.
GrimeyDog
14-05-2016, 23:58
https://youtu.be/T29Q6u7wRr8
Ford Fusion Stock car Watkins short 1:07.6xx I had No Idea this car was that fast!!! it will Do a 1:06.xxx easy!!! I had a really bad run out of the corner to the Straight and still made a 1:07.xx
driveclub007
15-05-2016, 00:39
Watkins glen short just got 102.375 Pagani Huayra r think it could be good for high 101.
GrimeyDog
15-05-2016, 01:36
Watkins glen short just got 102.375 Pagani Huayra r think it could be good for high 101.
What Pagani is it exactly that you used???
driveclub007
15-05-2016, 02:39
THE REVOLUCION
I had DRI=Off, but @Wheel FF=100. It didn't recommend any Scoop. I assume because the curve was close to linear (0.9988). I added Scoop, because I like the way it accentuates slip feel. :)
But in your settings you are running pwm 's so that would be similar to using dri on the wheel.? Did you run wheelcheck with dri 3?
Also are you running the game with your wheel set to 100 FF? Because turning the wheel FF down will increase deadzone.
Challenge accepted! :p
Edit - 15 mins later, i'm .5 sec below you Konnos. :cool:
Doing TT with FacetrackNOIR is alot harder than with a fixed camera. The chicane make the view swerve!
Edit#2 - Braging time, 1.1 sec now. :D I gotta confess i changed tires(from med to softs) and tune the base setup a bit.
I did 1min 11.2secs with default car. If i can find a way to take those last 2 corners better I can beat you probably. You are losing time in the first corner, carrying less speed onto the straight.
tennenbaum
15-05-2016, 08:17
It was All worth It:yes: Every page! Light Has now been Shed on Darkness No more Opinion's, No More Theory,the true Mathematical Equation has been Revealed:yes: False Teachings, Opinion VS Facts Debates can Now be put to Rest...
The Blue print I have beem searching for!!!
"Physics-related FFB knobs
First of all, you have to understand the FFB subsystem in pCARS as a set of 'sources' or 'channels' which can be adjusted individually to both change and augment the FFB signal.
Definitions
Fx = longitudinal force component (braking)
Fy = lateral force component (sideways force when cornering)
Fz = vertical force component (weight transfer, bumps)
Mz = torque around the vertical (Z) axis due to e.g. caster, King Pin Inclination, scrub radius etc.
The numbers represent percent, so 100 = 100% = 1.0
Essentially, the FFB starts where the forces acting on the contact patch through the suspension geometry reach the steering rack. If you leave the relative Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz at 100/100/100/100 respectively, you effectively haven't transformed the FFB matrix at all and you get EXACTLY what is transferred through the suspension geometry from the contact patch. You can consider this the 'pure' FFB signal.
The Spindle Master Scale simply scales the Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz transformation matrix by a scalar (0 - 200 or 0.0 - 2.0) on a per car basis. If you leave it at 100 (1.0), no scaling is introduced since 1.0 is the multiplicative identy. To give an example, having Fx = Fy = Fz = Mz = 50 and Master Spindle Scale = 200 is the same as having Fx = Fy = Fz = Mz = 100 and Master Spindle Scale = 100. Please take a moment to reflect on that.
Splitting up Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz like that is useful when you want to make a 'recipe' where you favour one 'flavour' of the FFB over the others. If you want to emphasize the torque difference between the front wheels under braking, you would need to add more parts of the longitudinal component Fx compared to the other parts.
Fx examples:
a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.
Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.
It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars.
In mathematical terms it looks like this:
Tire Force * Spindle Master Scale * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz)"
I have been taking a few minutes to reflect on this having More than a few drinks:very_drunk::very_drunk::very_drunk: it was all worth it:yes:
Pcars is a open FFB system, your formula can be what ever you want it to be as long as you follow the Blue print!!! its all just a #'s balancing game as i have always debated:yes:
IJS there is no right or wrong but if you want to be right follow me:victorious: Aaaah ha ha haaa(Evil Laugh) LOL... Embrace the Dark side:p
Everything in the qoute above from Ermo is correct, except the definition of Mz.
It was actually Ermo first who clarified this with the help of AJ after i asked him about Mz. So Ermo helped to dig out that the tireforce Mz is not the torque force as described above, he just didn't correct the definition in his original opening post that you quoted. Here is AJs answer to Ermo quoting Casey:http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/#post-2182158
Shortly after that it was SGETI http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1246992&viewfull=1#post1246992 who gave me the hint that in the meantime Casey Ringley commented on Mz 'officially'...
However, beside what Casey says about Mz in SGETIs post, it's even more interesting what he says in the former post to AJ/Ermo about Fy, but especially about Fx! I put the conversation here in my post because i think its a rare gem, but i recommend to use the link above to get the full context. I guess it's just a handful of people who are aware of what Fx really does... Ever wondered why sometimes you get a lot of feedback when you brake, and other times you brake as hard as before at the same spot but you get almost no braking feedback. Now you know...
Here some more info about the difference between pneumatic and mechanical trail: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1247377&viewfull=1#post1247377233143
But in your settings you are running pwm 's so that would be similar to using dri on the wheel.? Did you run wheelcheck with dri 3?
Also are you running the game with your wheel set to 100 FF? Because turning the wheel FF down will increase deadzone.
I run wheel FF at 100. But I hadn't thought about the PWM drag reduction, I'll try the test with DRI set to 3 and see how much of a difference it makes. DRI and PWM are two different ways to deal with the same issue, but I'm not sure they do it the same way. DRI changes the wheel's response to the signal. PWM changes the signal before it's even reaches the wheel. Now you've got me curious. :)
Haiden
Youre using jacks classic settings still right? Can you try the 49 cars and see if you get violet shaking in the wheel as the race starts? Anyone with a t300 id appreciate it too if you could try it. So far every track ive tried does it. You can see the waveform in the hud when its doing it. I'm not having any problems except these 2 cars so I think its an issue with them.
Jack Spade
15-05-2016, 14:07
Haiden
Youre using jacks classic settings still right? Can you try the 49 cars and see if you get violet shaking in the wheel as the race starts? Anyone with a t300 id appreciate it too if you could try it. So far every track ive tried does it. You can see the waveform in the hud when its doing it. I'm not having any problems except these 2 cars so I think its an issue with them.
IIRC there´s a slow spring bug on this car, it needs this line in the tweaker file as a workaround <value DisableSlowSpring="false" />
I noticed it a long time ago when they introduced the slow spring feature in an early patch.
IIRC there´s a slow spring bug on this car, it needs this line in the tweaker file as a workaround <value DisableSlowSpring="false" />
I noticed it a long time ago when they introduced the slow spring feature in an early patch.
Thanks Jack. Ive never noticed it before when I used them but that was a while ago. Is there a way to fix it on consoles?
I run wheel FF at 100. But I hadn't thought about the PWM drag reduction, I'll try the test with DRI set to 3 and see how much of a difference it makes. DRI and PWM are two different ways to deal with the same issue, but I'm not sure they do it the same way. DRI changes the wheel's response to the signal. PWM changes the signal before it's even reaches the wheel. Now you've got me curious. :)
This is where im at also as DRI changed my wheelcheck results quite a bit , if i cant find a answer i may go back to using DRI 3 again .
Im going to have a run with the scoops from the wheelcheck with DRI 3 test and turn PWM's off and DRI 3 on and see how it compares to those same scoops with PWM's .
Not sure how else to test it .
Jack Spade
15-05-2016, 14:28
Thanks Jack. Ive never noticed it before when I used them but that was a while ago. Is there a way to fix it on consoles?
SMS could if they search and find the bug.
Actually the line should be this to disable <value DisableSlowSpring="true" /> in this case "false" disables....probably part of the bug, also the line isn´t even
working anymore on all other cars since that patch.
IIRC there´s a slow spring bug on this car, it needs this line in the tweaker file as a workaround <value DisableSlowSpring="false" />
I noticed it a long time ago when they introduced the slow spring feature in an early patch.
Thanks again Jack. Low speed spring settings caused the issue. Set at default they cause it. Just turned down coefficient and saturation and cured the problem. Well at least for the 49c. Guess I just wont use the 49.
Haiden
Youre using jacks classic settings still right? Can you try the 49 cars and see if you get violet shaking in the wheel as the race starts? Anyone with a t300 id appreciate it too if you could try it. So far every track ive tried does it. You can see the waveform in the hud when its doing it. I'm not having any problems except these 2 cars so I think its an issue with them.
I don't think I've ever driven the car. I'll give it a shot. I know you worked it out, just curious to see what it's doing. :)
This is where im at also as DRI changed my wheelcheck results quite a bit , if i cant find a answer i may go back to using DRI 3 again .
Im going to have a run with the scoops from the wheelcheck with DRI 3 test and turn PWM's off and DRI 3 on and see how it compares to those same scoops with PWM's .
Not sure how else to test it .
That's what I was going to do. Don't see any other way. I like using Scoop to modify the curve, though. So, if the Wheelcheck results with DRI=3 don't significantly change the curve position/values, I doubt I'll actually test the results in games, because I prefer the PWM method of reducing drag, over DRI=3.
I don't think I've ever driven the car. I'll give it a shot. I know you worked it out, just curious to see what it's doing. :)
Sucks I really wanted to them. At least the 49c works. You got me hooked on the open wheels.
pagani huayra 1.10.9 just adjusted steering ratio
I've started to update the baseline thread, with info from this thread. I'll link stuff to post whenever possible.
Feel free to correct me if i write anything that doesn't make sense!
Sucks I really wanted to them. At least the 49c works. You got me hooked on the open wheels.
:smiley_simmons:
GrimeyDog
15-05-2016, 20:31
Haiden
Youre using jacks classic settings still right? Can you try the 49 cars and see if you get violet shaking in the wheel as the race starts? Anyone with a t300 id appreciate it too if you could try it. So far every track ive tried does it. You can see the waveform in the hud when its doing it. I'm not having any problems except these 2 cars so I think its an issue with them.
I tested these cars with My settings and i have not had any issues with shaking or oscillation since i reduced tire force to 75.... Wheel CVW v2
I tested these cars with My settings and i have not had any issues with shacking or oscillation since i reduced tire force to 75.... Wheel CVW v2
Not moving sitting still.lol Go figure problems when you aren't moving. The 49 I think is just screwed. Once you move it goes away or at least you cant feel it.
GrimeyDog
15-05-2016, 20:44
Not moving sitting still.lol Go figure problems when you aren't moving. The 49 I think is just screwed. Once you move it goes away or at least you cant feel it.
ooooh yes ok... I noticed that a Few months ago and even posted a video of it!!! yup thats still there but the car drives ok.
this is the link to the Thread i posted about it in.. I never made a fuss about it because i like open wheel cars but drive mostly GT3.
The random wave lines starts at the 2:10 min mark. video is a few months old with My old settings that used RAC 92
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43737-Lotus-49-cosworth-FFB-Bug-what-do-you-think-I-dunno
https://youtu.be/MGEnl1-G8Q0
Pagani Huayra BC TheGlen 1:10.8 with telemetry . At 45 seconds i toggle assists to show they are off .
https://youtu.be/z2IMImZnEMw
FA The Glen short , not fast and hurting tyres with poor driving but with HUD , at 38 seconds i toggle assists to show they are off.
Jezza819
16-05-2016, 05:23
Can I request a tutorial in layman's terms about what Fx, Fy, Fz, and Mz are and what they do? When you tweak them what are you adjusting?
Or if there is such a tutorial already out there, if you could point me to it.
Can I request a tutorial in layman's terms about what Fx, Fy, Fz, and Mz are and what they do? When you tweak them what are you adjusting?
Or if there is such a tutorial already out there, if you could point me to it.
Look at post #3358 on this page of this very thread =)
Edit ,one page back, my post pushed it back ,lol
Not moving sitting still.lol Go figure problems when you aren't moving. The 49 I think is just screwed. Once you move it goes away or at least you cant feel it.
Im getting it on initial stop from speed , as soon as i release the brakes it goes away even if the car is still stationary and wont occur untill heavy braking to a stand still again .
gotdirt410sprintcar
16-05-2016, 08:58
Would it be you have to raise FX smoothing MZ smoothing. I think FX stock is 50. I only tried that car once but left the smoothing where it was because guys where talking about that same problem when the car was released and some of the other in car settings might need smoothed out to .
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 10:13
Would it be you have to raise FX smoothing MZ smoothing. I think FX stock is 50. I only tried that car once but left the smoothing where it was because guys where talking about that same problem when the car was released and some of the other in car settings might need smoothed out to .
The Graph Line just Moves in a Crazy Zig Zag pattern for No Reasaon when Car is Stopped, Brakes, No Brakes... But the Car Drives just fine. Shrugggs
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 10:17
What a Refreshing weekend!!! No More Picking at settings Looking for the FFB unicorn!!! Now I Must Train My Self to Run Fast consistant laps without the Telemetry HUD on Screen. LOL
Would it be you have to raise FX smoothing MZ smoothing. I think FX stock is 50. I only tried that car once but left the smoothing where it was because guys where talking about that same problem when the car was released and some of the other in car settings might need smoothed out to .
No jack said its a problem with the car but we cant fix it on consoles. The 49c did work after turning down the low speed settings but no luck on the 49. I did try adding more fy mz smoothing but didn't work. I guess its a known problem.
https://youtu.be/z2IMImZnEMw
FA The Glen short , not fast and hurting tyres with poor driving but with HUD , at 38 seconds i toggle assists to show they are off.
Are you using sim racing manager with vhud? Works great and rival mode is fun for time trials. It gives you something to shoot for.
What a Refreshing weekend!!! No More Picking at settings Looking for the FFB unicorn!!! Now I Must Train My Self to Run Fast consistant laps without the Telemetry HUD on Screen. LOL
It will probably be easier without the extra distraction. I rarely have it on anymore and just leave the timer on. Youll just get in a rhythm and start clicking off laps without thinking about it.
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 12:23
It will probably be easier without the extra distraction. I rarely have it on anymore and just leave the timer on. Youll just get in a rhythm and start clicking off laps without thinking about it.
Agree... I have Been watching the telemetry Soo Long its like its part of the Track Now... But it Feels sooo Good to Finaly be 100% sure of My Settings...My 2x Biggest Questions Have Been answered!!!
1) 1.00/100 = 100% Power anything above 1.01/100 is overdrive but is Not a Bad thing according to settings used:yes:
2) TF = Global Master Scale as in It is the Master for the in Car Masters:yes: These two Revelations have totaly Cleared up Any Questions or Misunderstandings that i had about the FFB system.
I Now understand how and why Mathematic Formulas are and Can be applied to Pcars FFB system... The Math Formulas are Not based on SMS Recomendations... I have always asked and Looked for a FFB Blue print to Validate this theory... it is understood that The Math Formulas are Based on How the Maker of a Given Tweek prefers to set the In car Masters Etc or what parts of the FFB system the maker of a given tweek chooses to use as the Power sorce to Balance the FFB.
Next Project... Any 1 care to takle the Body scales??? LOL... Im going to enjoy a Bit of Pure Racing for a bit before i even consider Takling the Body Scale Paradox... LOL.
The FFB Truly Feels Better than Ever the Best on Console to date!!!
I wouldnt even know where to start with those... Like, not even what they mean :P
It will probably be easier without the extra distraction. I rarely have it on anymore and just leave the timer on. Youll just get in a rhythm and start clicking off laps without thinking about it.
I've even stopped using the timer. Between my two dash apps and Crew Chief , I m good without the game timer. Seeing the constant split time is distracting for me. I prefer getting the updates by sector. In fact, in free practice, when there aren't any other cars on the track and I don't need the map, I turn the HUD off all together .
I tried the 49s, but only in practice. Forgot you said race starts. The 49 had what looked like some intermittent interference in the wave, but my wheel never actually moved. When the interference showed, I could feel a slight vibration in the wheel when I touched it, though. The 49c's waveform was quiet and steady at standstill. I can try a race star later.
Edit: I wasn't using any smoothing on the 49s
Koza_Nostra
16-05-2016, 14:04
I've even stopped using the timer. Between my two dash apps and Crew Chief , I m good without the game timer. Seeing the constant split time is distracting for me. I prefer getting the updates by sector. In fact, in free practice, when there aren't any other cars on the track and I don't need the map, I turn the HUD off all together .
I tried the 49s, but only in practice. Forgot you said race starts. The 49 had what looked like some intermittent interference in the wave, but my wheel never actually moved. When the interference showed, I could feel a slight vibration in the wheel when I touched it, though. The 49c's waveform was quiet and steady at standstill. I can try a race star later.
Same here, I've never really used Telemetry HUD much, just for when I used to test settings.. Now that I'm very happy with my settings, I think I've done more racing in the last 8 days than it the last 12 months :) Actually carrying on with my Career and it's enjoyable. Currently doing LMP2 championship and so much fun. I never used the full HUD anyway, as you mentioned, I think it's a distraction.
The best way is to turn off your HUD, and just concentrate on the track and cars in Front or behind you and keep pushing, feel the grip going down as the laps wrap up and keep going until you see that chequered flag! :) PCars is awesome! I got quite a few new games lately e.g. Dirt Rally, Division, GTA 5, Fallout 4, but keep coming back to Pcars just can't get enough. Once you get them settings right, it's like racing for real.
Since the game came out, my settings used to go uphill or downhill, depending on what SMS used to change to tyre physics, but with this thread and no more changes from SMS we can finally start racing full time :) Thanks again to everyone on this forum, this thread and let's race.
Fight-Test
16-05-2016, 14:35
Agree with the onscreen hud. Everything you need is in the motec in the cars dash. I use the app for damage mostly as it gives u more specific damage numbers. I have a button mapped to the wheel to change screens so I can see the map on tablet for pulling out of pit during qualification. Focus definitely will improve from removing distractions. Everything else is in the motec or getting said over crew chief.
Same here, I've never really used Telemetry HUD much, just for when I used to test settings.. Now that I'm very happy with my settings, I think I've done more racing in the last 8 days than it the last 12 months :) Actually carrying on with my Career and it's enjoyable. Currently doing LMP2 championship and so much fun. I never used the full HUD anyway, as you mentioned, I think it's a distraction.
The best way is to turn off your HUD, and just concentrate on the track and cars in Front or behind you and keep pushing, feel the grip going down as the laps wrap up and keep going until you see that chequered flag! :) PCars is awesome! I got quite a few new games lately e.g. Dirt Rally, Division, GTA 5, Fallout 4, but keep coming back to Pcars just can't get enough. Once you get them settings right, it's like racing for real.
Since the game came out, my settings used to go uphill or downhill, depending on what SMS used to change to tyre physics, but with this thread and no more changes from SMS we can finally start racing full time :) Thanks again to everyone on this forum, this thread and let's race.
Indeed, it's pretty fun to do!
Agree with the onscreen hud. Everything you need is in the motec in the cars dash. I use the app for damage mostly as it gives u more specific damage numbers. I have a button mapped to the wheel to change screens so I can see the map on tablet for pulling out of pit during qualification. Focus definitely will improve from removing distractions. Everything else is in the motec or getting said over crew chief.
I tried button mapping when I first got the app, but couldn't get it to work. I should try it again, since there have been quite a few updates since then.
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 15:15
I tried button mapping when I first got the app, but couldn't get it to work. I should try it again, since there have been quite a few updates since then.
The button Mapping works... I have the Page Change Mapped to the Right Thumb stick Rotary Function... Turn it left Screen scrolls back turn it right page scrolls right... works very well.
Now that I'm very happy with my settings, I think I've done more racing in the last 8 days than it the last 12 months :) Actually carrying on with my Career and it's enjoyable. Currently doing LMP2 championship and so much fun. I never used the full HUD anyway, as you mentioned, I think it's a distraction.
Agreed. The past couple months have been so much more enjoyable. I just did a resinstall, so I'm going to be starting a new career. But I was running an FA career before and doing one off Race Weekends with GT3s and a few other classes/cars. I found that I really like running long races (30+ laps) with x4 tire wear and four weather transitions, one of which is set to random. This really makes the pit strategy pretty interesting, as the cars all pit a various times. I've also been speeding up the time transition in some of the Race Weekends, sometimes X15. I like the track getting cooler--afternoon, to late afternoon, to night, to morning. It forces you to have quite a few pit options setup before the race--Normal, Cold Weather, Wet, Soft vs Medium, etc...
Playing with the race options/configurations is definitely more fun than fiddling in the settings screens. :) It's such an awesome game. Blow every other racer out of the water. If FM5 had of been this configurable and realistic, I wouldn't have gone numb with boredom waiting for FM6. Not that that wait proved worthwhile...LOL
Jezza819
16-05-2016, 16:51
Look at post #3358 on this page of this very thread =)
Edit ,one page back, my post pushed it back ,lol
Um kinda sorta. I guess what I'm asking is like if you went in and say moved Fy from 20 to 40, what are you adjusting? What are you trying to fix?
Mz says it's torque around the vertical axis etc. etc., what does that mean, what are you fixing?
gotdirt410sprintcar
16-05-2016, 17:12
Well grimey I have been just running body scale at what the car g forces are under braking mostly4.01 to 6.01 f1 cars are best at 8.01
And the body longitudinal seems wierd but it is also very car dependent. But you can tell with body scale say the car pulls three in a half g's as setting of 2.00 won't feel right but 4.01 should be better you can feel it that way
Um kinda sorta. I guess what I'm asking is like if you went in and say moved Fy from 20 to 40, what are you adjusting? What are you trying to fix?
Mz says it's torque around the vertical axis etc. etc., what does that mean, what are you fixing?
Well, when you're in a curve, Mz will add weight to the wheel when you are below Max slip angle. As you move further away from max slip angle, and you continue to turn the front wheel, it should invert forces and actually make the steering more and more lightweight.
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 19:50
iM
Well grimey I have been just running body scale at what the car g forces are under braking mostly4.01 to 6.01 f1 cars are best at 8.01
And the body longitudinal seems wierd but it is also very car dependent. But you can tell with body scale say the car pulls three in a half g's as setting of 2.00 won't feel right but 4.01 should be better you can feel it that way
I was thinking to try body scale... I'm not even sure of what i should be looking for it to do TBH...My best guess is body scale should provide progressive resistance when turning like it is with Assetto Corsa... Ex: in a corner the faster your going the wheel would get harder to turn... I dunno my best guess because we already have enough FFB bleed off with RAB to Create road feel and changes to wheel weight as you lose grip while cornering... What other feel could Body scale add?
The last time i tried body Scale i had no Luck but i realized later that I also had the body scale master turned off/0.00 in the settings.
What are your exact Body scale settings i will try them.
Roger Prynne
16-05-2016, 20:03
Gut Simulation
BODY & SOP
This is a simulation of the G forces on the body of the driver. Basically, G forces move the body around via a physical simulation, and the result of that simulation is translated to force feedback.
GutScale (Body Scale)
Magnitude of the gut simulation in FFB. 1.0 is normalized to “significant but not overpowering”.
GutLongScale (Body Longitudinal Scale)
Magnitude of longitudinal effect applied. This is a scaling of the baseline lateral effect. At 0.0, the gut effect will be all based on lateral G’s. With non zero GutLongScale, under braking G’s, the lateral effect will increase, and under acceleration G’s the lateral effect will decrease.
GutMass
This is the mass of the simulated “gut”, which should not be the whole human body. It should
be some lesser portion, roughly being the effective amount of mass not “locked down” rigid by the seat and seatbelts. This is a very fuzzy concept, so the number is really just a very rough ballpark number. This is fine, because the simulation is not overly sensitive to this number. It matters, but it is not extremely critical.
The default is 50 kg.
GutStiffness (Body Stiffness)
Stiffness of the gut with respect to the car. So in a kart this may be lower. In an F1 car this is probably pretty high.
GutDamping (Body Damping)
This is a multiplier on critical damping of whatever mass and stiffness is set. Therefore, 1.0 means exactly critically damped.
Jezza819
16-05-2016, 20:43
Well, when you're in a curve, Mz will add weight to the wheel when you are below Max slip angle. As you move further away from max slip angle, and you continue to turn the front wheel, it should invert forces and actually make the steering more and more lightweight.
Is Max slip angle the point where the wheel is no longer turning the actual tire on the car so there is no more grip and you lose the feeling of the road?
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 21:19
Gut Simulation
BODY & SOP
This is a simulation of the G forces on the body of the driver. Basically, G forces move the body around via a physical simulation, and the result of that simulation is translated to force feedback.
GutScale (Body Scale)
Magnitude of the gut simulation in FFB. 1.0 is normalized to “significant but not overpowering”.
GutLongScale (Body Longitudinal Scale)
Magnitude of longitudinal effect applied. This is a scaling of the baseline lateral effect. At 0.0, the gut effect will be all based on lateral G’s. With non zero GutLongScale, under braking G’s, the lateral effect will increase, and under acceleration G’s the lateral effect will decrease.
GutMass
This is the mass of the simulated “gut”, which should not be the whole human body. It should
be some lesser portion, roughly being the effective amount of mass not “locked down” rigid by the seat and seatbelts. This is a very fuzzy concept, so the number is really just a very rough ballpark number. This is fine, because the simulation is not overly sensitive to this number. It matters, but it is not extremely critical.
The default is 50 kg.
GutStiffness (Body Stiffness)
Stiffness of the gut with respect to the car. So in a kart this may be lower. In an F1 car this is probably pretty high.
GutDamping (Body Damping)
This is a multiplier on critical damping of whatever mass and stiffness is set. Therefore, 1.0 means exactly critically damped.
Can you Describe or is there a Specific Feel that i am looking for when trying to adjust the body scale??? This setting seems to have every one stumped as to how to adjust it oe what it should feel like in the steering wheel...yup I'm looking for new settings to tweek with... I tweek by Feel alone so I'm just trying to get a Basic Clue of what i should be looking for feel wise with the body setting.
Is Max slip angle the point where the wheel is no longer turning the actual tire on the car so there is no more grip and you lose the feeling of the road?
Images are worth a 1000 words! (https://www.google.ca/search?q=slip+angle&espv=2&biw=1432&bih=886&tbm=isch&imgil=DZIphsAKZSOAPM%253A%253BTp3UKyTQNG6LCM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.driftingstreet.com%25252Foversteer-understeer-slip-angle.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=DZIphsAKZSOAPM%253A%252CTp3UKyTQNG6LCM%252C_&usg=__naReuYxLpNnKs3SW1ebCPI8TsVA%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj_rq6Cw9_MAhUs34MKHSXIBf0QyjcIKg&ei=hjk6V__TOqy-jwSlkJfoDw#imgrc=_)
Roughly,
As you turn the front wheels, the grip you get out of them gradualy increase. The car also turn more. As some point, turning them more doesn't actualy give more grip, if you continue to turn the wheels, you'll start to lose grip, and the car won't turn more. The steering wheel will actually get lighter.
Hth
GrimeyDog
16-05-2016, 21:48
I can Feel the effect that the Body scale has to offer... it would be a really nice resistance to turning that could add that extra immersion... But im Not sure body scale is working as it should because its either working only left or only to the right most of the time... There seems to be No switching of the body scale forces when turning from left to right.
is this setting Confirmed to be working as it should?
I can Feel the effect that the Body scale has to offer... it would be a really nice resistance to turning that could add that extra immersion... But im Not sure body scale is working as it should because its either working only left or only to the right most of the time... There seems to be No switching of the body scale forces when turning from left to right.
is this setting Confirmed to be working as it should?
Not that you can't play with it. There's probably a way to set it when you're not using a motion rig. But to me, this signal fits well for a motion rig, as linkage fits when using a control pad.
As they say, sometimes less is better.
Jezza819
16-05-2016, 22:14
Images are worth a 1000 words! (https://www.google.ca/search?q=slip+angle&espv=2&biw=1432&bih=886&tbm=isch&imgil=DZIphsAKZSOAPM%253A%253BTp3UKyTQNG6LCM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.driftingstreet.com%25252Foversteer-understeer-slip-angle.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=DZIphsAKZSOAPM%253A%252CTp3UKyTQNG6LCM%252C_&usg=__naReuYxLpNnKs3SW1ebCPI8TsVA%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj_rq6Cw9_MAhUs34MKHSXIBf0QyjcIKg&ei=hjk6V__TOqy-jwSlkJfoDw#imgrc=_)
Roughly,
As you turn the front wheels, the grip you get out of them gradualy increase. The car also turn more. As some point, turning them more doesn't actualy give more grip, if you continue to turn the wheels, you'll start to lose grip, and the car won't turn more. The steering wheel will actually get lighter.
Hth
Ok I kind of get that. So if you're feeling too much of that slipping, add some more Mz?
Ok I kind of get that. So if you're feeling too much of that slipping, add some more Mz?
Lower it. The more Mz you have the more the lightness will come as you move past max slip angle. Or you could lower Scoop Reduction. That way, Mz will probably work in a more compressed range and you won't feel it as much.
Not that you can't play with it. There's probably a way to set it when you're not using a motion rig. But to me, this signal fits well for a motion rig, as linkage fits when using a control pad.
As they say, sometimes less is better.
Agreed. The wheel hardware has a finite number of methods/spectrums to communicate though. Push too much through it, and you won't be able to make sense of what you're feeling
Agreed. The wheel hardware has a finite number of methods/spectrums to communicate though. Push too much through it, and you won't be able to make sense of what you're feeling
One time, i talked to a guy that had a buttkicker setup, with simvibe. In that software, you can alot of different effect, that get sent to the transducers. You need to balance them carefull, while not sending too many thing there because they cancel out each other at some point.
With that said, a CSW v2 could probably deal with all that well since it got a greater operating range than, lets say, a G27.
One time, i talked to a guy that had a buttkicker setup, with simvibe. In that software, you can alot of different effect, that get sent to the transducers. You need to balance them carefull, while not sending too many thing there because they cancel out each other at some point.
With that said, a CSW v2 could probably deal with all that well since it got a greater operating range than, lets say, a G27.
SimVibe and SimCommander are two of the reasons I'm considering PC. :). It seems they can really transform the experience.
SimVibe and SimCommander are two of the reasons I'm considering PC. :). It seems they can really transform the experience.
The guy told me that even with only 1, it's THAT good! You start by 1, then you can't get enough. It's then chassis mode(1 in each corner). Now we're talking! Next thing you know, you're considering building a motion rig.
I can't even remember how many transducer he installed. It was alot! :D
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 02:13
Even on Console using 2 Buttkickers is Good... I use 1 to play Left other plays Right of course they Both Vibrate all the Time but i can Feel the stronger input Right Vs Left according to the side that on Curb, Ruble Strip, Gets Hit etc... Also i use Head Phones so its a Perfect Brain Screw... You See it on the Left, feel it in the wheel to the Left, you hear it left so your Brain Tells your senses you feel it more on the left...Not to Mention the Left Buttkicker will be More Agressive than the Right 1 due to Curb, Rumble strips, impact etc.... Very Nice
I check the site a Few times a week... They are out of Stock for the Last 6months!!! Im going to order at least 2x more soon as they are in stock again because they are soo hard to get!!! They will be worth it even if i dont use them right away i will have them... Not to Mention profitable Resale Value because their always out of stock:yes:
gotdirt410sprintcar
17-05-2016, 03:00
Not that you can't play with it. There's probably a way to set it when you're not using a motion rig. But to me, this signal fits well for a motion rig, as linkage fits when using a control pad.
As they say, sometimes less is better.
Yes, probably yes, WOW less is better I do agree but I was a half second to a full sec faster in every car with how I was doing it. I will test some more to get a idea. a idea lol
I think body longitudinal might need to be used when you use body stuffl. Body scale max to me would be 10.0 I don't no what lmp1 car pulls far as G 's. body stiffness I would do it by dividing car weight by body weight 50kg/110 pounds and you get numbers that match most of the time. The sticky part??? That will take some sticky icky
Running the street ruf gt8 JS classic. I have had a pull or dont want to turn feeling so i been lowering fx seems to get better each time. I have 60.0 body longitudinal scale stiffness 26.0 i added sop later 10. I just like how it feels when you get it right the turn in, mid corner, a nice lateral feel then the wheel goes light as you come of the corner im guessing that's when longitudinal forces kick in its different
Bunga412
17-05-2016, 09:40
Even on Console using 2 Buttkickers is Good... I use 1 to play Left other plays Right of course they Both Vibrate all the Time but i can Feel the stronger input Right Vs Left according to the side that on Curb, Ruble Strip, Gets Hit etc... Also i use Head Phones so its a Perfect Brain Screw... You See it on the Left, feel it in the wheel to the Left, you hear it left so your Brain Tells your senses you feel it more on the left...Not to Mention the Left Buttkicker will be More Agressive than the Right 1 due to Curb, Rumble strips, impact etc.... Very Nice
I check the site a Few times a week... They are out of Stock for the Last 6months!!! Im going to order at least 2x more soon as they are in stock again because they are soo hard to get!!! They will be worth it even if i dont use them right away i will have them... Not to Mention profitable Resale Value because their always out of stock:yes:
If I had my time again I would of brought just two or even four buttkicker mini concerts. And then purchased a crown xls amp. Currently I run two gamers on the cross over option on the crown amp. Stereo into mono. So one has constant engine vibration and the other only kicks in for curbs bumps and crashes.
I think it was an Australian problem with our gamer amps, and has since been fixed. I don't think the amps could handle our 240v, but one gave me little shocks and the other just wouldn't turn on after 3 months of use. I still have one amp sitting in the cupboard. Brand new, I may hook that up to a concert, sit it underneath my pedals.
Anyway I can't race without them now.
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 10:09
Last Night I Hit a Mile Stone!!! I Finally Finished the 3rd Race in Career Mode in the Gt3 Ruff... Note Yes said 3rd Race Not Race Event.... LOL... I Never Went past the 3rd Race in Career with all the updates and stuff... every time we get a update i delete all old game data to make sure i get a Fresh install... So o figured why bother:confused:
Nubergring GP Good Track with Good Feel.... Thats going to be 1 of My New Favorite Tracks...
FFB feels Better than ever!!! and Because i finally found the Blue print i have been serching for ( 100/1.00 =100% and TF = Global Spindle Master Scale) I have Total Confidence in My Tweek and im Not Serching any More... This allows Me to once again Focus on Purity of Racing Line instead of Looking for Flaws in FFB Feel.
For Me TF 100 didn't feel Bad because over time with all the updates and Changes i had gotten used to the Stronger/Heavier wheel but i Must admit that TF 75 Feels Better:yes:
also it makes Much More sense to balance TF 75 with RAC 75 it gives a better wheel weight to FFB balance.
The Bonus is that the wheel Runs even Cooler Now!!! the side Fan even after Hours of use does Not come on... I have checked it a few times to make sure its working and it is... the wheel temp stays 85°F to 88F° so i guess there is No Need for the extra cooling of the side fan:yes:
All in All im Very Happy and Confident with the FFB:yes: and can Now get back to Racing:victorious: Lap Times are Dropping:o
Koza_Nostra
17-05-2016, 11:16
Agreed. The past couple months have been so much more enjoyable. I just did a resinstall, so I'm going to be starting a new career. But I was running an FA career before and doing one off Race Weekends with GT3s and a few other classes/cars. I found that I really like running long races (30+ laps) with x4 tire wear and four weather transitions, one of which is set to random. This really makes the pit strategy pretty interesting, as the cars all pit a various times. I've also been speeding up the time transition in some of the Race Weekends, sometimes X15. I like the track getting cooler--afternoon, to late afternoon, to night, to morning. It forces you to have quite a few pit options setup before the race--Normal, Cold Weather, Wet, Soft vs Medium, etc...
Playing with the race options/configurations is definitely more fun than fiddling in the settings screens. :) It's such an awesome game. Blow every other racer out of the water. If FM5 had of been this configurable and realistic, I wouldn't have gone numb with boredom waiting for FM6. Not that that wait proved worthwhile...LOL
Agree man! I also like to run races with Time progression, I usually start them around 1pm and finish them around 9am next morning, it's awesome to see the track getting dark, and then racing in the dark it's amazing experience in the game like this! And then the sun comes up it gets light and there it is that chequered flag :) I don't play around with the weather much yet, but I will start that soon too. I do like the Thunderstorm tho :) It looks crazy :)
And agree on FM. I used to play FM a lot, because that was really the only one proper racing game on Xbox, and I was quite looking forward to FM6, when I got it - Yes it looks graphically nice, but handling wise, it's not up there. Yes on the gamepad it can be good, but with the steering wheel it's not great. And I hardly touched FM6 in the past 12 months, always on Pcars, F1 or Dirt.. I like the fact you can mod cars and the amount of choice on cars is good, but I think FM need to go back to the drawing board and decide how they will compete with Pcars, Assetto Corsa and so on..
There is so much love for this game now that the FFB is sorted. I mean, it was never bad, but my unicorn wasn't found yet and it finally is now :)
It's a shame I don't have PS4, would be nice to race with you guys.
Agreed. The wheel hardware has a finite number of methods/spectrums to communicate though. Push too much through it, and you won't be able to make sense of what you're feeling
After all the talk about scoops last week I went back and played with mine. Yeah I know.:p You got me thinking again. That and after running the pagani that felt like it had zero grip until the tires warmed up. We adjust scoops for road feel and slip feel but nobody has ever mentioned adjusting the ffb master if the feel is good but too strong or weak. So off to testing. I had never been able to run the scoops as high as the fcm recommended but I was a lot closer to the fcm numbers last night with the ffb turned up. With the scoops higher and a better range of feel the pagani had grip with cold tires and the brake/lateral grip feel was really progressive. But I did have to turn the ffb up quite a bit from where I was running it before. Catching the tail of the car when it stepped out felt a lot more natural too. I think I'm going to leave it like this for a bit and give myself time to adjust to having so much progressive brake and lateral grip feel. I'm really liking the fact the cold tires feel like I would expect now you have to be careful but they do have a reasonable grip level.
Agree man! I also like to run races with Time progression, I usually start them around 1pm and finish them around 9am next morning, it's awesome to see the track getting dark, and then racing in the dark it's amazing experience in the game like this! And then the sun comes up it gets light and there it is that chequered flag :) I don't play around with the weather much yet, but I will start that soon too. I do like the Thunderstorm tho :) It looks crazy :)
And agree on FM. I used to play FM a lot, because that was really the only one proper racing game on Xbox, and I was quite looking forward to FM6, when I got it - Yes it looks graphically nice, but handling wise, it's not up there. Yes on the gamepad it can be good, but with the steering wheel it's not great. And I hardly touched FM6 in the past 12 months, always on Pcars, F1 or Dirt.. I like the fact you can mod cars and the amount of choice on cars is good, but I think FM need to go back to the drawing board and decide how they will compete with Pcars, Assetto Corsa and so on..
There is so much love for this game now that the FFB is sorted. I mean, it was never bad, but my unicorn wasn't found yet and it finally is now :)
It's a shame I don't have PS4, would be nice to race with you guys.
Definitely try four weather slots with one random. The unknown is a great mix factor. :) I think it's better to keep the random slot first or second, though, if you're running long time progressions. It's hard enough to keep your tire temps up at night on some tracks. You don't need weather factors making it even harder. :)
I haven't touched FM6 in month either. Played for an hour or two about six months ago, and haven't gone back since. I still play F1 every once in a while, and definitely get sucked into more than FM6 when I do. I'm looking forward to F1 2016. They're bring custom championships back. I think if 2015 had a custom career mode, I'd play it more.
After all the talk about scoops last week I went back and played with mine. Yeah I know.:p You got me thinking again. That and after running the pagani that felt like it had zero grip until the tires warmed up. We adjust scoops for road feel and slip feel but nobody has ever mentioned adjusting the ffb master if the feel is good but too strong or weak. So off to testing. I had never been able to run the scoops as high as the fcm recommended but I was a lot closer to the fcm numbers last night with the ffb turned up. With the scoops higher and a better range of feel the pagani had grip with cold tires and the brake/lateral grip feel was really progressive. But I did have to turn the ffb up quite a bit from where I was running it before. Catching the tail of the car when it stepped out felt a lot more natural too. I think I'm going to leave it like this for a bit and give myself time to adjust to having so much progressive brake and lateral grip feel. I'm really liking the fact the cold tires feel like I would expect now you have to be careful but they do have a reasonable grip level.
Funny, because the improved brake feel is what I like most about my new Scoop settings. Before, it was good in some cars, but not in all. I really like being able to feel when I'm brushing the brakes. It helps me be more precise with braking in general, and makes trail braking easier. Without it, I knew I was over braking. Muscle memory alone is okay, but I found it a bit lacking for fine control, because the amount of pressure you need changes based on the brake pressure and bias you're using for the track. I've found that with SK/SR at 0.80/0.20 - 0.24, I get good brake feel, and the closer I move SR to 0.24, the stronger the feeling. But with my old Scoop K/R (0.86/0.28), the brake feel wasn't nearly as good across all cars. This slight change had made a mad difference in my lap times. I'm now matching my best times in the FA, but without using DRS or KERS. And I'm hitting them with less warm up time. I know it's the braking. I've said it before that that was an area I needed to improve. :)
The Wheelcheck/FCM tool was worth the couple hours I put into it. I wish I had used it sooner.
Funny, because the improved brake feel is what I like most about my new Scoop settings. Before, it was good in some cars, but not in all. I really like being able to feel when I'm brushing the brakes. It helps me be more precise with braking in general, and makes trail braking easier. Without it, I knew I was over braking. Muscle memory alone is okay, but I found it a bit lacking for fine control, because the amount of pressure you need changes based on the brake pressure and bias you're using for the track. I've found that with SK/SR at 0.80/0.20 - 0.24, I get good brake feel, and the closer I move SR to 0.24, the stronger the feeling. But with my old Scoop K/R (0.86/0.28), the brake feel wasn't nearly as good across all cars. This slight change had made a mad difference in my lap times. I'm now matching my best times in the FA, but without using DRS or KERS. And I'm hitting them with less warm up time. I know it's the braking. I've said it before that that was an area I needed to improve. :)
The Wheelcheck/FCM tool was worth the couple hours I put into it. I wish I had used it sooner.
;)
I had to :)
Koza_Nostra
17-05-2016, 12:59
Definitely try four weather slots with one random. The unknown is a great mix factor. :) I think it's better to keep the random slot first or second, though, if you're running long time progressions. It's hard enough to keep your tire temps up at night on some tracks. You don't need weather factors making it even harder. :)
I haven't touched FM6 in month either. Played for an hour or two about six months ago, and haven't gone back since. I still play F1 every once in a while, and definitely get sucked into more than FM6 when I do. I'm looking forward to F1 2016. They're bring custom championships back. I think if 2015 had a custom career mode, I'd play it more.
I will give it a go next time I play. Yeah keeping the tire temperature can be tricky and sometimes could cost you loosing few places.
I was even going to sell FM6 on eBay, but decided to keep it for some odd times when I'm too lazy to connect my wheel and just want few laps with the gamepad.
F1 2015 is good, but as you say they didn't put much effort into the Gameplay. Yes I heard about custom championship, would be great. Also would love them to do drive out of the pits and get to your grid spot yourself, warm up lap, safety car, post race lap.. Would really help with immersion. Let's hope :)
Roger Prynne
17-05-2016, 14:09
Can you Describe or is there a Specific Feel that i am looking for when trying to adjust the body scale??? This setting seems to have every one stumped as to how to adjust it oe what it should feel like in the steering wheel...yup I'm looking for new settings to tweek with... I tweek by Feel alone so I'm just trying to get a Basic Clue of what i should be looking for feel wise with the body setting.
I wouldn't worry about it and leave it at default, I've never messed with it and don't intend to either.
;)
I had to :)
Was that you that suggested it? I couldn't remember. Thanks! :)
F1 2015 is good, but as you say they didn't put much effort into the Gameplay. Yes I heard about custom championship, would be great. Also would love them to do drive out of the pits and get to your grid spot yourself, warm up lap, safety car, post race lap.. Would really help with immersion. Let's hope :)
Drive outs and saftey cars would be awesome. I think the safety car is being included.
FM6 is good for when friends come over. It can be a little more accessible for the casual racer. Easier to just plug and play.
Speaking of plug and play. I had friends over Sunday to watch the Spanish Grand Prix (recorded, of course). Afterward we raced a bit, and someone changed the steering ratio on the FA. I didn't know that, and started it up last night on the same track. The car felt sluggish, and since I didn't know the ratio had been changed, I thought it was the FFB feel. I quickly figured it out, but it got me thinking. For people that are using the default in-car setups and driving with these high steering ratios, the cars have to feel sluggish and floatier than they should, because the default ratios are too high in most cars, especially the open wheelers. Something to think about when tuning the FFB. Simply adjusting the steering ratio might give you a better, more responsive feeling wheel. For that reason, I'd recommend getting the ratio squared away first, before chasing the unicorn. :)
Oh yes! One more thing to fine tune! I ll pass for now, DEFAULT SETUPS FOR LIFE YO
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 16:05
Oh yes! One more thing to fine tune! I ll pass for now, DEFAULT SETUPS FOR LIFE YO
The Default set ups are pretty Good.... I have No problem getting Good laps with them.
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 16:26
I wouldn't worry about it and leave it at default, I've never messed with it and don't intend to either.
Im Not Going to bother with them...Now that i have My Final FFB solution i was just poking with them to see if it made a Difference... Gotdirt410sprintcar has been tweeking with them and likes the feel so i got curiouse... But i agree with Poirqc that that seems like more of a setting to be used with a motion simulator.... I dont Have 1 of those... Yet... But Im Working on it:p
Edit: While Tweeking around with Body Scale i will say that it does give a Nice Progressive Resistence to the wheel while turning into fast corners under weight transfer... But there is No way to stablize it... It seems its working only to the Left or Right but there is No Transition Between Left and Right...When It works it just Locks to the 1 side that triggered it and wont let go. Shrugggs
Jack Spade
17-05-2016, 16:55
I wouldn't worry about it and leave it at default, I've never messed with it and don't intend to either.
I agree to Roger... Body stuff basically is an other version of Lateral Force (side load) like Fy and Sop Lateral. It´s more complicated to balance with
other forces as it´s not part of the common TF - M.Scales - FxyzMzSop Multiplier chain. An example, lets say you´ve balanced it on numerous
cars and for some reason you later decide to reduce TF cause you noticed too much clipping in general, that´s the moment you lost the balance
on all of these cars. Body Long Scale, the wheel becomes light under acceleration, who needs that?....and strong under braking, not needed as
weight transfer already comes from Mz. I have 9 different sets of tweaker files available, making it a dozen would be a bit of work to do but not too
much of a problem.....it just doesn´t make sense, cause everything needed to feel the car is there already without the Body stuff.
Jezza819
17-05-2016, 18:07
FFB feels Better than ever!!! and Because i finally found the Blue print i have been serching for ( 100/1.00 =100% and TF = Global Spindle Master Scale) I have Total Confidence in My Tweek and im Not Serching any More... This allows Me to once again Focus on Purity of Racing Line instead of Looking for Flaws in FFB Feel.
For Me TF 100 didn't feel Bad because over time with all the updates and Changes i had gotten used to the Stronger/Heavier wheel but i Must admit that TF 75 Feels Better:yes:
also it makes Much More sense to balance TF 75 with RAC 75 it gives a better wheel weight to FFB balance.
The Bonus is that the wheel Runs even Cooler Now!!! the side Fan even after Hours of use does Not come on... I have checked it a few times to make sure its working and it is... the wheel temp stays 85°F to 88F° so i guess there is No Need for the extra cooling of the side fan:yes:
All in All im Very Happy and Confident with the FFB:yes: and can Now get back to Racing:victorious: Lap Times are Dropping:o
Did all the info on your PDF stay the same or were there some adjustments made?
For people that are using the default in-car setups and driving with these high steering ratios, the cars have to feel sluggish and floatier than they should, because the default ratios are too high in most cars, especially the open wheelers. Something to think about when tuning the FFB. Simply adjusting the steering ratio might give you a better, more responsive feeling wheel. For that reason, I'd recommend getting the ratio squared away first, before chasing the unicorn. :)
Totally agree. Adjusting the steering ratio was one of the first things I learned when I first got the game. I generally run everything around 7.9:1 unless it feels too snappy then I'll back it off a notch or two. Since I only run 10 lap races I'll also adjust the fuel load down. Other than those two adjustments I run everything else at stock.
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 18:47
Did all the info on your PDF stay the same or were there some adjustments made?
I added notes to better help users to adjust setting to their liking.
TF is Now 75 and it feels Great and aslo Noted that TF and RAC should be set to the same # value... keeping those settings at the same # value gives the best balance between TF/wheel weight and FFB strength.
i will post the New PDF again in a few... its the same info that's on the front page but i will post it here for those that havent checked the front page.
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 19:42
05/13/2016 -----> 10.0#v3 PDF update TF 75_ RAC_75
Added New Notes to better help user understand how to adjust settings and tweek to personal FFB taste.
also added Note suggesting that user try to keep TF and RAC set to same # value if possible to maintain better balance of TF and FFB effects forces.
Updated TF 75 as base Starting point to better manage wheel weight, If Needed + or - to set Wheel weight to wheel used and personal taste :yes:
MY interpretation of RAC is correct for My specific settings with Car masters 100 For other users with low in Car Masters their input to the RA module is less so it works differently... For Me using RAC 75 or lower this works well and i will stick with TF 75 or Lower with in Car Masters 100 because it leaves +99 or -99 Room for adjustment with in car Masters.
IMO With Settings 100/1.00 and Below the FFB Power and Feel is there... If the Power and Feel were Lacking with 100/1.00 and Below settings i would agree that Higher #'s would be Needed... But because the FFB Power and Feel is there IMO when you have to use some settings 101/1.01+ then something in the FFB Chain is Not being Balanced properly which causes you to overdrive 1 part of the System to compensate for the other parts being under used/out of balance... I use No Settings above 100/1.00
Qoute from JS post page 318, post 3171--->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain
at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement:yes:
Tweek will work on other wheels and Xbox 1 but you will have to set game master FFB according Wheel and system used!!!
PS4 and Xbox 1 the GM FFB is different.
PS4 GM FFB No longer adjust at the wheel FFB strength for Fanatec wheels the FFB Level is Now set by the Fanatec on wheel FFB setting.
***This Lower RAC setting works Well for All Wheels and also Lowers the chances of in game FFB Clipping
Note GM FFB Needs to be set according to wheel used***
***The in car masters can be adjusted per car to get desired FFB strength per car,
I have set the in car masters to 200 and No Clipping!!! Adjust masters + or - per car as needed***
***Formula A cars can Now be driven with No Special tweek needed with No Oscillation***
Grimey, I have to admit that at first I thought your method was a godsend, simple generic setup, easy to use, hey perfect stuff for the smart impaired types. Then as I kept getting better with the tracks, tuning and driving, I went back to the Jack Spade files because it seemed some component of the overall feel was missing and was costing me seconds or tents of seconds here and there.
But now I'm back to the GrimeyMethod™ in nearly all cases because it really does let you focus on the individual cars attributes and once I understand the car I can drive the hell out of it much better. For me there is no substitute for time in the seat I guess, well that and spending the all too many hours tweaking the god awful too many settings in the wheel config section. But hey now that for the most part I've dialed in the config part, use the GrimeyMethod™ ffb, I can get behind the wheel of most any damn car and hit some decent times.
The TF/RAC=same# thing seems like a no brainer thing now that I'm driving it and I'm wondering how many times I used that setting unconsciously or accidentally while trying to get dialed in?
For those who have yet to give it a go, try the GrimeyMethod™, it works, big thanks buddy.
Totally agree. Adjusting the steering ratio was one of the first things I learned when I first got the game. I generally run everything around 7.9:1 unless it feels too snappy then I'll back it off a notch or two. Since I only run 10 lap races I'll also adjust the fuel load down. Other than those two adjustments I run everything else at stock.
It's definitely something you want to dial to taste. The defaults are too high, and force you to go hand over hand sometimes. Try Monaco in an FA with the default ratio...LOL
GrimeyDog
17-05-2016, 21:47
Grimey, I have to admit that at first I thought your method was a godsend, simple generic setup, easy to use, hey perfect stuff for the smart impaired types. Then as I kept getting better with the tracks, tuning and driving, I went back to the Jack Spade files because it seemed some component of the overall feel was missing and was costing me seconds or tents of seconds here and there.
But now I'm back to the GrimeyMethod™ in nearly all cases because it really does let you focus on the individual cars attributes and once I understand the car I can drive the hell out of it much better. For me there is no substitute for time in the seat I guess, well that and spending the all too many hours tweaking the god awful too many settings in the wheel config section. But hey now that for the most part I've dialed in the config part, use the GrimeyMethod™ ffb, I can get behind the wheel of most any damn car and hit some decent times.
The TF/RAC=same# thing seems like a no brainer thing now that I'm driving it and I'm wondering how many times I used that setting unconsciously or accidentally while trying to get dialed in?
For those who have yet to give it a go, try the GrimeyMethod™, it works, big thanks buddy.
Thanks for the Support and Compliment... I'm Very happy i was able to finally get it dialed in right:o
yes i too over looked and down played the TF setting many times!!! and used other settings to adjust and Compensate...After reading the post tennenbaum linked to the thread that stated TF = Global Spindle Master Scale:yes: Yes it was a no Brainer that TF/RAC should = same # value:yes: that was the last key to the puzzle of balancing the FFB for me.
TF 75_RAC 75 and in Car Masters 100 = +99 or -99 for in car FFB adjustment:yes:
also the TF/RAC can be Lowered if Needed to Match any wheel or FFB strength taste and then + or - with the car Masters to set per car Feel.
Thanks to Haiden prodding me to take another look at My settings and tennenbaums post i have found My Final FFB solution...I will be reading tennebaums theory's and summations of how the FFB system work from Now until Pcars 2 comes out... You have made Great contributions to helping All understand How the FFB system works!!!...also thanks to Poirqc his base line FFB thread really helped Me figure out the Scoop settings and sooo much more.
Poirqc Base line FFB thread link below
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
Thanks to All that Shared knowledge Talked FFB and helped with the Quest... just too many to name but thanks to you all.
truth is i don"t know how i over looked those simple facts:confused: Too Much going on in real life, too many updates and i lost my way some where??? i dunno But at last the Pcars FFB Paradox has been solved:yes:
Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening FFB Changer for Me!!! Link to original post below...also more links on First page further explaining "Mz"
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/
"a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.
Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.
It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote
gotdirt410sprintcar
18-05-2016, 03:14
I agree with everyone about body stuff but does it not say in the guide he wanted more lateral from the rear he turned the front off he used SOP only. I lowered gain a month ago it felt like the left right was better but the hole fx etc needs to be lower too kind off like dial the g force's in.
Blame grimey for this post i'm done effen with it time to race
GrimeyDog
18-05-2016, 11:05
I agree with everyone about body stuff but does it not say in the guide he wanted more lateral from the rear he turned the front off he used SOP only. I lowered gain a month ago it felt like the left right was better but the hole fx etc needs to be lower too kind off like dial the g force's in.
Blame grimey for this post i'm done effen with it time to race
When i set Body scale it Really adds a Nice progressive feel while turning Hard and Fast under weight Transfer... The problem is that it wont Let Go... when turning under weight transfer Load what ever side triggers Body Scale to activate the wheel Locks to that side and stays there...it will Not transition between Right and Left Smoothly:no: How ever i use No Smoothing or Damping:no:.... Hmmmm So Now im thinking and wondering if i add Smoothing and a tad of Damping will the Body Scale work as it should:confused: Hmmm Maybe Because i dont use Smoothing/Damping is the Reason it just Locks Left or Right and will Not Make a Smooth:yes: Dampend:yes: Transition... Hmmm:confused: I wonder???
IMO
Damping = Saps initial power so Transition wil Not be so Blunt and Jarring.
Smoothing= The Forces are applied gradually instead of Full on Full off to Create Smoother Blending of FFB Forces.
These 2 settings actually seem Redundant:confused: but Hmmm Maybe Just Maybe:confused:
Gotdirt410sprintcar we have work to do:cower: LOL
Edit: Please feel free to Add or Correct Me if im wrong about the way these 2 settings work.
also Maybe Body scale is Not working as it should??? But i see No reason why it should be over complicated setting because many other sims have Steering with Progressive resistence to turn....from playing with Body scale it seems thats what it adds to the wheel FFB... But i could be wrong:confused:
Edit: Maybe setting Body Scale and Turning SoP Off will make a Diff???...as JS pointed out Body Scale is just a More Complicated version of SoP... Maybe these settings cant be used together like it is with the Relative and Full/Half clips settings... Hmmm.
With All the updates and the FFB working as it Should right Now i will Give SMS credit and assume Body Scale works and we just Have Not figured out how to set it yet:confused:
Edit: Im Looking at the PDF of the Global Settings... Im Wondering if the Linkage Scale and Body Scale work together??? Linkage Scale definition in a way strongly implies this.... Am I Wrong???
gotdirt410sprintcar
18-05-2016, 15:46
I think it might and arm seems to have a effect to. I was playing with linkage last time I was playing with body stuff. And that damping part you was talking about I seen on a AC forum how it works at 1.0 or 100 it would 1.0 or 100 quick. But set it low it's more like 25,50,75,100 the forces would come in slower not 1.0/100 all at once be more gradually. I'm guessing it's a better feel probably why I liked it off or very little but right now I have linkage SC damping at 1.0/100
Androphonomania
18-05-2016, 17:41
My FFB i use is against all advice. I use Grimeys FFB settings with a t500. FFB at 50 and TF at 100 with scoops at 0.86 and 0.17. It feels great, i am capable to sense a lot of the car. The understeer feel could be a little bit more detailed but overall it feels way better than the JS classic or grimey with ffb 100 and TF 75.
No ob question:
Would try ffb 75 / TF 75 make a difference to ffb 50 / TF 100
GrimeyDog
18-05-2016, 17:54
My FFB i use is against all advice. I use Grimeys FFB settings with a t500. FFB at 50 and TF at 100 with scoops at 0.86 and 0.17. It feels great, i am capable to sense a lot of the car. The understeer feel could be a little bit more detailed but overall it feels way better than the JS classic or grimey with ffb 100 and TF 75.
No ob question:
Would try ffb 75 / TF 75 make a difference to ffb 50 / TF 100
The Game Master FFB 100 is Only for Fanatec wheel... For TM Wheel 50 or 75 or what ever the GM FFB for The T500 is would be Fine... Try the TF 75 RAC 75 you will like it... I Too Liked TF 100 but TF/RAC 75 is better... Just set your GM FFB according to your wheel... I think it should be fine at 50 and if you want more Power at the wheel go GM FFB 75.... test and Post again to tell how it feels to you.
Grimey, I think the body portion of the ffb is just plain busted, it's as if the weight transfer won't release sometimes and it takes hold of the wheel locking it into a turn, or something along those lines, until you pause the game. Mostly I've found it locks up after a hard sideswipe but it's also happened to me as a result of bottoming out, kind of like the ffb not clipping and overloading something perhaps. I saw a few people talking about their car/wheel getting caught in a pull to one side or another and mentioned that they should check for body ffb being active.
GrimeyDog
18-05-2016, 18:42
Grimey, I think the body portion of the ffb is just plain busted, it's as if the weight transfer won't release sometimes and it takes hold of the wheel locking it into a turn, or something along those lines, until you pause the game. Mostly I've found it locks up after a hard sideswipe but it's also happened to me as a result of bottoming out, kind of like the ffb not clipping and overloading something perhaps. I saw a few people talking about their car/wheel getting caught in a pull to one side or another and mentioned that they should check for body ffb being active.
I had the same Result when i set body Scale on... But i also had Linkage Scale off in the Global Settings and SoP in the Car settings on.
Now that i Have My FFB Final Solution i want to Give Body a try with Linkage Scale set to on and SoP off in the Car settings... It cant Hurt....SoP and Body opperate pretty Much the same so Maybe they can Not be used together:confused:... Im just in from work... I will be Testing this shortly and will post My findings.
GrimeyDog
18-05-2016, 19:19
Grimey, I think the body portion of the ffb is just plain busted, it's as if the weight transfer won't release sometimes and it takes hold of the wheel locking it into a turn, or something along those lines, until you pause the game. Mostly I've found it locks up after a hard sideswipe but it's also happened to me as a result of bottoming out, kind of like the ffb not clipping and overloading something perhaps. I saw a few people talking about their car/wheel getting caught in a pull to one side or another and mentioned that they should check for body ffb being active.
I had the same Result when i set body Scale on... But i also had Linkage Scale off in the Global Settings and SoP in the Car settings on.
Now that i Have My FFB Final Solution i want to Give Body a try with Linkage Scale set to on and SoP off in the Car settings... It cant Hurt....SoP and Body opperate pretty Much the same so Maybe they can Not be used together:confused:... Im just in from work... I will be Testing this shortly and will post My findings.
..
Well here it goes... I will just say that some things need to be and should be Left alone...Bottom Line. Body Scales:no::no::no:
tennenbaum
18-05-2016, 20:58
Grimey, I think the body portion of the ffb is just plain busted, it's as if the weight transfer won't release sometimes and it takes hold of the wheel locking it into a turn, or something along those lines, until you pause the game. Mostly I've found it locks up after a hard sideswipe but it's also happened to me as a result of bottoming out, kind of like the ffb not clipping and overloading something perhaps. I saw a few people talking about their car/wheel getting caught in a pull to one side or another and mentioned that they should check for body ffb being active.
thanks for being just blunt: body is broken. at least for PS4.
tennenbaum
18-05-2016, 21:10
My FFB i use is against all advice. I use Grimeys FFB settings with a t500. FFB at 50 and TF at 100 with scoops at 0.86 and 0.17. It feels great, i am capable to sense a lot of the car. The understeer feel could be a little bit more detailed but overall it feels way better than the JS classic or grimey with ffb 100 and TF 75.
No ob question:
Would try ffb 75 / TF 75 make a difference to ffb 50 / TF 100
...against all advice. ... best way to approach!
tennenbaum
18-05-2016, 21:14
..
Well here it goes... I will just say that some things need to be and should be Left alone...Bottom Line. Body Scales:no::no::no:
just say it's broken 😀 trust your experience.
GrimeyDog
18-05-2016, 22:05
https://youtu.be/Bf4jQgDDhzw
Online FFB Test Laguna Seca Stock Gt3 Ruff 1:22.6xx
TF/RAC 75 I can run 1:23.xxx race Pace no Problem!!! 8 lap race pace 1:23.XXX except the first lap... only qualifying lap in video... I try to keep them short... settings shown at end:yes:
Yup i think it all paid off:yes: it was all worth it:yes:
gotdirt410sprintcar
18-05-2016, 22:29
Body does feel better with low gain and bleed of .02 I think I was running gain at 60 when I tested it a month ago but who cares SMS don't
GrimeyDog
18-05-2016, 22:55
Finally getting Back to Just Racing in the Last few days... I almost Forgot How good that feels!!!
The FFB Quest was well worth it and its Showing in Consistency and Lap times... Very Happy with the FFB
Guys i need help! Werent the default tire pressures always way too high on most cars? I know I used to have to drop the ruff to about 1.95 front and 1.90 on the rear to keep them hot and if memory serves me correct most of grimeys videos have really cold tire temps because he doesn't adjust them usually.
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 00:18
Guys i need help! Werent the default tire pressures always way too high on most cars? I know I used to have to drop the ruff to about 1.95 front and 1.90 on the rear to keep them hot and if memory serves me correct most of grimeys videos have really cold tire temps because he doesn't adjust them usually.
LOL I guess their Cold... LOL... I dunno i dont adjust nothing... LOL... But Now that the FFB is done I,m gonna work on a few car tweeks and see what i can come up with:yes:
Whats good tire temp range???
That's the thing I'm not sure now. Before I always had to drop the air pressure now I cant touch it from default or they will get too hot. The ruf gt3 I thought I had around 1.90-95 for pressures before I reinstalled the game. Good is going to depend on the tire but usually around 200 is pretty safe I think the nascar tires can take quite a bit more than that without cooking them. But don't quote on that. lol What are youre tire temps on the ruf gt3 at the glen with default pressures?
That's the thing I'm not sure now. Before I always had to drop the air pressure now I cant touch it from default or they will get too hot. The ruf gt3 I thought I had around 1.90-95 for pressures before I reinstalled the game. Good is going to depend on the tire but usually around 200 is pretty safe I think the nascar tires can take quite a bit more than that without cooking them. But don't quote on that. lol What are youre tire temps on the ruf gt3 at the glen with default pressures?
Are you asking about temps in general, or just the Ruf? I'm still experiencing varying tire temps, in relation to the defaults. Some cars I lower to get the heat into them. Others, I raise. I'm cooking the left side at Silverstone, though lately. Don't know why. I drive that track all the time and didn't have this problem before. I also had to run Meds at Catalunya, because I couldn't get a good race pace without cooking the tires. The Meds stayed optimal at around the same speeds. I've always had trouble with the left front on that track, but not like that, and the left rear was cooking, too.
Are you asking about temps in general, or just the Ruf? I'm still experiencing varying tire temps, in relation to the defaults. Some cars I lower to get the heat into them. Others, I raise. I'm cooking the left side at Silverstone, though lately. Don't know why. I drive that track all the time and didn't have this problem before. I also had to run Meds at Catalunya, because I couldn't get a good race pace without cooking the tires. The Meds stayed optimal at around the same speeds. I've always had trouble with the left front on that track, but not like that, and the left rear was cooking, too.
No not in general. Something changed since the reinstall or the new dlc. I almost always had to lower pressures to keep heat in the tires now the default pressures are putting me in the 200-220 range. At first I thought it was the new scoop values so I put the old ones back in and still the same. Before the reinstall I was lapping the glen at mid 1.07s no problem now I'm lucky to hit low 1.08s. I didn't forget how to do it.lol
Are you asking about temps in general, or just the Ruf? I'm still experiencing varying tire temps, in relation to the defaults. Some cars I lower to get the heat into them. Others, I raise. I'm cooking the left side at Silverstone, though lately. Don't know why. I drive that track all the time and didn't have this problem before. I also had to run Meds at Catalunya, because I couldn't get a good race pace without cooking the tires. The Meds stayed optimal at around the same speeds. I've always had trouble with the left front on that track, but not like that, and the left rear was cooking, too.
Ok so its not just me all of a sudden.Didnt you just reinstall the game too? I'm assuming you got the dlc too?
gotdirt410sprintcar
19-05-2016, 04:36
2017 Camaro nurburg crash 1.34 is where the crash is https://youtu.be/VyWNiKpcNoQ
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 10:44
Guys i need help! Werent the default tire pressures always way too high on most cars? I know I used to have to drop the ruff to about 1.95 front and 1.90 on the rear to keep them hot and if memory serves me correct most of grimeys videos have really cold tire temps because he doesn't adjust them usually.
You may have had Tire Model updates that didn't fully Lock in... Thats why i always Delete all Game Data and do a Fresh install when we get updates
Try Resetting your Global settings and Putting them back in Fresh.. if that doesn't work try doing a Data Base Reset that will Not Delete your Data but will Reorganize any Fragmented files that you May have... Sometimes i push buttons too quickly especially exiting the Global Menu then go straight to test drive and push to load track before the save data icon goes away... I noticed that when i do that the data will Not save corectly 100% of the time...
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 11:13
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=784968
Interesting article on Setting Tire PSI
SET UP ADVICE FOR THE TOYO PROXES R888
What I would like to do is to offer some advice on tyre temperatures and pressures and how to achieve the best from our tyres when taking part in either trackdays or racing.
The R888 has a semi race construction (very stiff) and a race tread compound. The optimum tread temperature range is between 85C and 95C measured using a probe type pyrometer, and ideally a maximum difference across the tread of 9C. The maximum hot pressure we recommend is 40psi. Camber angles up to 5 degrees are permissible but the final setting will depend on tread temperatures. It is advisable to have as much positive castor as practical as castor induces a beneficial camber change during cornering. I recommend that the tyres be put through a heat cycle before hard use, this will scrub them in and remove any mold release agent.
The pressures you use will initially depend on the weight of the car, too little pressure on a heavy car can lead to over deflection of the tyre and subsequent failure.
Below are some basic settings:
VEHICLE WEIGHT COLD PRESSURE HOT PRESSURE
Very Light < 800kg 17 - 22 psi 22 - 29 psi
Light 800kg - 1000kg 20 - 26 psi 24 - 32 psi
Heavy 1000kg - 1400kg 23 - 27 psi 28 - 40 psi
Very Heavy > 1400kg 27 - 35 psi 37 - 40 psi
As a tyre gets hotter the pressure increases, this is due to the moisture in the air. The cold pressure you set to achieve a desired hot pressure will depend on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry. If the day/track is cold you will need to start with a higher cold pressure as the tyre will not get as hot therefore the pressure increase will not be so great.
Hot pressures must be balanced side to side. Once the tyres have cooled you will find that you will have a difference in pressure side to side, if you have been racing on a right hand track you will find the offside pressures will usually be higher than the nearside.
Changing hot inflation pressures by small amounts can be used to fine tune handling.
Reduce Oversteer Reduce rear pressures or increase front pressures
Increase Oversteer Increase rear pressures or reduce front pressures
Reduce Understeer Reduce front pressures or increase rear pressures
Increase Understeer Increase front pressures or reduce rear pressures
Achieving the required tread temperatures will depend again on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry.
You often here competitors saying “My tyres started to go of towards the end of the race”, this is usually due to the tread getting to hot.
The tread temperatures are constantly changing through out a race, hotter when cornering and cooler when on the straights and cooling even more when you are slowing to come into the pits. Therefore the temps you record in the pits will be lower than those during the race. So if you record temperatures within the range given above the probability is the temps will be too high during the race.
Increasing your tyre pressures will cause your tread temperatures to increase, more pressure stiffens the tyre’s casing which results in the tread having to do more work resulting in the tread getting hotter. Lowering your pressures will cause them to decrease.
Inevitably changing one thing will affect other things, the whole set up of your car is a compromise between anything that is adjustable.
Alan Meaker
Technical and Motorsport Manager Toyo Tyres (UK)
I just did a rebuild data base before reinstalling the game this time but its worth a shot. That was last week. Something is definitely off I had one of the glitches like you hit something that stops the car dead and knocks the transmission into neutral on the glen again. I haven't had one of those in a while. I think I'm going to try it before I put the combined track dlc in this time if I have to reload it and see how it acts just in case its a problem with that.
Ok so its not just me all of a sudden.Didnt you just reinstall the game too? I'm assuming you got the dlc too?
I just did one last week, but I also did one when I installed update 9.0. That's around the time I first noticed the changes, so it could be related to the reinstall. But I actually think the changes were in the 9.0 update. It's been pretty consistent since then. Are you track conditions the same? Same time of year/day?
Edit: Yes. I've got all the DLC content. LOVE the combine. I'd been missing that.
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 11:26
I just did a rebuild data base before reinstalling the game this time but its worth a shot. That was last week. Something is definitely off I had one of the glitches like you hit something that stops the car dead and knocks the transmission into neutral on the glen again. I haven't had one of those in a while. I think I'm going to try it before I put the combined track dlc in this time if I have to reload it and see how it acts just in case its a problem with that.
I Down Load all content first then do the Rebuild... Also before you Set your Globals push the Reset button a few times to Make sure all data has been Reset in globals and you should be Golden.
If you havent done a Fresh insall after the last Few updates its possible that you could have been driving a while on the old tire Model or Corrupt data and had Not realized it...Even if you dont do a Fresh install Resetting the Global Settings is the only way you can be sure that you Locked in all the Changes made to the tire Model....this is a old issue that was discussed after update 3.0 .... I just do a Fresh install just to make sure.
I just did one last week, but I also did one when I installed update 9.0. That's around the time I first noticed the changes, so it could be related to the reinstall. But I actually think the changes were in the 9.0 update. It's been pretty consistent since then. Are you track conditions the same? Same time of year/day?
Edit: Yes. I've got all the DLC content. LOVE the combine. I'd been missing that.
Yes on the glen in practice so everything is the same.
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 15:29
https://youtu.be/yqQwH_Qj1x0
SMS Should Make a Dirt Rally Game with Pcars Physics!!! It would be Amazing!!!
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 18:30
The Granturismo sport unveiling event is streaming Live on you tube...Link Below... Gt sport looks pretty Good and it has Oval Tracks the race there was really Good...2:30pm its NY time now... Their on London time but its on Now!!!
https://youtu.be/iXxcjCNkHCU
gotdirt410sprintcar
19-05-2016, 20:26
Looks great but will it feel great too thats the ? When is the release date and gran truismo sport must be gt7
GrimeyDog
19-05-2016, 21:20
http://www.isrtv.com/thrustmaster/first-images-of-new-gran-turismo-sport-branded-thrustmaster-wheel/
Hmmm Whats this??? Looks like TM is striking back with a heavy hitter wheel... looks like it maybe a DD Wheel!!!
all I'm saying is i have more room on My wall of wheels for the V2 if its a TM DD Wheel...IJS i don't use it on XB1 so it is what it is.
Yup I'm a Wheel hoarder:o
Edit: this pic is Man kave 2.0 it's been upgraded to Man Kave 3.5 LOL it cant be Man kave 4.0 until i get a DD wheel:p
Looks great but will it feel great too thats the ? When is the release date and gran truismo sport must be gt7
Nope. It's a different title...and it sounds even better. :)
Jim Ryan, Sony Computer Entertainment Europe CEO, has explained that GT Sport is different because of the way racing games and gaming in general has changed...
So what we are getting is an online-focused game with three modes: Campaign, Sports Mode, and Arcade Mode. You’ll be able to compete in virtual championships and have the results of those officially recognized by the FIA through a Nations Cup and Manufacturers Cup. Winners will be treated like real-life racing drivers and presented awards at the FIA annual ceremony in Paris. Sony is also taking this opportunity to turn Gran Turismo into an E-Sports event, and of course adding support for PlayStation VR.
Androphonomania
19-05-2016, 22:05
That's the thing I'm not sure now. Before I always had to drop the air pressure now I cant touch it from default or they will get too hot. The ruf gt3 I thought I had around 1.90-95 for pressures before I reinstalled the game. Good is going to depend on the tire but usually around 200 is pretty safe I think the nascar tires can take quite a bit more than that without cooking them. But don't quote on that. lol What are youre tire temps on the ruf gt3 at the glen with default pressures?
What do you mean with "before" There is a difference in tyre cooling to the "old" Patch 5.0 tyre model. This leads to higher pressures. In hot conditions you overheat the tyres whatever you do (at some point increasing tyre pressure doesnt help anymore).
Pressures on the PS4 and the tyre temperatures are critical, in relation to the pc or the old tyre model.
But it could also be, that you became faster.
What do you mean with "before" There is a difference in tyre cooling to the "old" Patch 5.0 tyre model. This leads to higher pressures. In hot conditions you overheat the tyres whatever you do (at some point increasing tyre pressure doesnt help anymore).
Pressures on the PS4 and the tyre temperatures are critical, in relation to the pc or the old tyre model.
But it could also be, that you became faster.
I was wondering the same. Might be my issue with Silverstone now. My current FFB is much better, and I can push harder. That would generate more heat.
@Morpwr - Are your lap times the same, or have they improved?
My first video contribution to the thread. :)
V8 Supercar at Nordschleife, running against 15 AI at 100% and starting from the back of the grid with telemetry on. Real assists, which is none in this car.
Being a relatively heavy car on a soft base the FFB isn't all that lively, even on this track. But I really enjoy this combo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hlK3eo-Bk
I'm not usually one to share settings and instead prefer to share info about how the system works, but in the spirit of the thread these are the settings I used here. They're also quite different to everyone elses which some of you might find interesting.
===============
Global settings
===============
TireForce - 100
Deadzone Range - 0.08 <- Wheel specific
Deadzone Falloff - 0.002 <- Wheel specific
RA Gain - 1.00
RA Bleed - 0.12
RA Clamp - 1.75
SC Half - 3.20 <- Wheel specific
SC Full - 1.80
Scoop Knee - 1.00 <- Wheel specific
Scoop Reduction - 0.07 <- Wheel specific
Steering Gain - 1.0
Force Feedback - 100
================
Ford V8 Supercar
================
Spindle Master - 100.0
Fx - 0.0
Fy - 0.0
Fz - 100.0
Mz - 100.0
SoP -
SoP Scale - 100.0
SoP Lat - 0.0
SoP Diff - 80.0
If you're interested in trying them, be sure to plug in your own wheel specific settings. If you aren't familiar with Soft clip, for most wheels you probably want SC Half higher (Maybe start with 10.0). Don't disable SC or change the SC Full setting though or you'll hard clip with forces this strong coming into the compression routines.
I was wondering the same. Might be my issue with Silverstone now. My current FFB is much better, and I can push harder. That would generate more heat.
@Morpwr - Are your lap times the same, or have they improved?
No that was the problem I couldn't touch my old lap times. I think I did get part of it fixed because I could drop the pressures to what I used to run again. But something is still screwed I'm getting the landmines or whatever you want to call it almost every time now on the glen.I haven't had those in ages.
What do you mean with "before" There is a difference in tyre cooling to the "old" Patch 5.0 tyre model. This leads to higher pressures. In hot conditions you overheat the tyres whatever you do (at some point increasing tyre pressure doesnt help anymore).
Pressures on the PS4 and the tyre temperatures are critical, in relation to the pc or the old tyre model.
But it could also be, that you became faster.
I mean like a couple days ago. Before I did the reinstall of the game.
http://www.isrtv.com/thrustmaster/first-images-of-new-gran-turismo-sport-branded-thrustmaster-wheel/
Hmmm Whats this??? Looks like TM is striking back with a heavy hitter wheel... looks like it maybe a DD Wheel!!!
all I'm saying is i have more room on My wall of wheels for the V2 if its a TM DD Wheel...IJS i don't use it on XB1 so it is what it is.
Yup I'm a Wheel hoarder:o
Edit: this pic is Man kave 2.0 it's been upgraded to Man Kave 3.5 LOL it cant be Man kave 4.0 until i get a DD wheel:p
If that's dd I'm gonna have one!!!!!
You may have had Tire Model updates that didn't fully Lock in... Thats why i always Delete all Game Data and do a Fresh install when we get updates
Try Resetting your Global settings and Putting them back in Fresh.. if that doesn't work try doing a Data Base Reset that will Not Delete your Data but will Reorganize any Fragmented files that you May have... Sometimes i push buttons too quickly especially exiting the Global Menu then go straight to test drive and push to load track before the save data icon goes away... I noticed that when i do that the data will Not save corectly 100% of the time...
Resetting the globals seemed to help next is the rebuild database again.:mad: See if that gets rid of the landmines or whatever imaginary object I keep hitting now.
tennenbaum
20-05-2016, 10:54
My first video contribution to the thread. :)
V8 Supercar at Nordschleife, running against 15 AI at 100% and starting from the back of the grid with telemetry on. Real assists, which is none in this car.
Being a relatively heavy car on a soft base the FFB isn't all that lively, even on this track. But I really enjoy this combo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hlK3eo-Bk
I'm not usually one to share settings and instead prefer to share info about how the system works, but in the spirit of the thread these are the settings I used here. They're also quite different to everyone elses which some of you might find interesting.
===============
Global settings
===============
TireForce - 100
Deadzone Range - 0.08 <- Wheel specific
Deadzone Falloff - 0.002 <- Wheel specific
RA Gain - 1.00
RA Bleed - 0.12
RA Clamp - 1.75
SC Half - 3.20 <- Wheel specific
SC Full - 1.80
Scoop Knee - 1.00 <- Wheel specific
Scoop Reduction - 0.07 <- Wheel specific
Steering Gain - 1.0
Force Feedback - 100
================
Ford V8 Supercar
================
Spindle Master - 100.0
Fx - 0.0
Fy - 0.0
Fz - 100.0
Mz - 100.0
SoP -
SoP Scale - 100.0
SoP Lat - 0.0
SoP Diff - 80.0
If you're interested in trying them, be sure to plug in your own wheel specific settings. If you aren't familiar with Soft clip, for most wheels you probably want SC Half higher (Maybe start with 10.0). Don't disable SC or change the SC Full setting though or you'll hard clip with forces this strong coming into the compression routines.
Hi Skoader,
great to hear from you. I was always interested in your settings, which are indeed unique. (Such a pity i can't try them these days...) Possibly you're bringing a whole new approach to the table - putting Softclipper back into the light, since it never got really popular due to its complexity. (bmanic, beside you, is one of the few who really utilizes SC. But he does it totally different than you do. BTW: here in Germany your video gets blocked on youtube due to music copyright issues. Is your video also available without music? Or on an FTL download link. I'm curious to see the telemetry...
Are you using sim racing manager with vhud? Works great and rival mode is fun for time trials. It gives you something to shoot for.
Sorry must have missed this , no Mate not using any apps =( might take a look at them again .
My first video contribution to the thread. :)
V8 Supercar at Nordschleife, running against 15 AI at 100% and starting from the back of the grid with telemetry on. Real assists, which is none in this car.
Being a relatively heavy car on a soft base the FFB isn't all that lively, even on this track. But I really enjoy this combo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hlK3eo-Bk
I'm not usually one to share settings and instead prefer to share info about how the system works, but in the spirit of the thread these are the settings I used here. They're also quite different to everyone elses which some of you might find interesting.
===============
Global settings
===============
TireForce - 100
Deadzone Range - 0.08 <- Wheel specific
Deadzone Falloff - 0.002 <- Wheel specific
RA Gain - 1.00
RA Bleed - 0.12
RA Clamp - 1.75
SC Half - 3.20 <- Wheel specific
SC Full - 1.80
Scoop Knee - 1.00 <- Wheel specific
Scoop Reduction - 0.07 <- Wheel specific
Steering Gain - 1.0
Force Feedback - 100
================
Ford V8 Supercar
================
Spindle Master - 100.0
Fx - 0.0
Fy - 0.0
Fz - 100.0
Mz - 100.0
SoP -
SoP Scale - 100.0
SoP Lat - 0.0
SoP Diff - 80.0
If you're interested in trying them, be sure to plug in your own wheel specific settings. If you aren't familiar with Soft clip, for most wheels you probably want SC Half higher (Maybe start with 10.0). Don't disable SC or change the SC Full setting though or you'll hard clip with forces this strong coming into the compression routines.
Nice driving =)
Not sure i want to try more settings , but probably will .lol
Thanks for sharing .
GrimeyDog
20-05-2016, 13:24
My first video contribution to the thread. :)
V8 Supercar at Nordschleife, running against 15 AI at 100% and starting from the back of the grid with telemetry on. Real assists, which is none in this car.
Being a relatively heavy car on a soft base the FFB isn't all that lively, even on this track. But I really enjoy this combo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hlK3eo-Bk
I'm not usually one to share settings and instead prefer to share info about how the system works, but in the spirit of the thread these are the settings I used here. They're also quite different to everyone elses which some of you might find interesting.
===============
Global settings
===============
TireForce - 100
Deadzone Range - 0.08 <- Wheel specific
Deadzone Falloff - 0.002 <- Wheel specific
RA Gain - 1.00
RA Bleed - 0.12
RA Clamp - 1.75
SC Half - 3.20 <- Wheel specific
SC Full - 1.80
Scoop Knee - 1.00 <- Wheel specific
Scoop Reduction - 0.07 <- Wheel specific
Steering Gain - 1.0
Force Feedback - 100
================
Ford V8 Supercar
================
Spindle Master - 100.0
Fx - 0.0
Fy - 0.0
Fz - 100.0
Mz - 100.0
SoP -
SoP Scale - 100.0
SoP Lat - 0.0
SoP Diff - 80.0
If you're interested in trying them, be sure to plug in your own wheel specific settings. If you aren't familiar with Soft clip, for most wheels you probably want SC Half higher (Maybe start with 10.0). Don't disable SC or change the SC Full setting though or you'll hard clip with forces this strong coming into the compression routines.
Thanks for Sharing your Video and Settings:applause:
Your Settings and Driving is another Example of just How Diverse Pcars FFB system Truly is!!!
Nice Driving!!!
WOW!!! and Every 1 thought My Car Masters 100 was extreem:victorious: LOL
Great Driving... i Like the Music too... Nice:yes:
GrimeyDog
20-05-2016, 13:31
Im Ready and im Confident.... Some one suggest 3 cars that are opposite so i can test them and compare the FFB Graphs... I will post the videos later for review:yes:
No that was the problem I couldn't touch my old lap times. I think I did get part of it fixed because I could drop the pressures to what I used to run again. But something is still screwed I'm getting the landmines or whatever you want to call it almost every time now on the glen.I haven't had those in ages.
Strange, I got my first ever landmine about a week ago. Can't remember the track, but I doubt it was Watkins, because I don't run it much. I'll run a few laps there this weekend to test. I was surprised when it happened to me last week, because, until then, I'd only heard and seen videos of it happening to other people. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that I got one around the same time I've started having increased incidents of FFB and sound dropping at the start of sessions, and the FFB feeling corrupted coming out of the pits.
GrimeyDog
20-05-2016, 13:47
I never have gotten Land Mines on Watkins and i test there often
If that's dd I'm gonna have one!!!!!
Depends on the price. If it's anywhere close to an Accuforce, I'd rather have that. Especially given TM's quality reputation. Not really looking to be an early adopter with that company...LOL
Honestly, though... I'd be surprised if it is a DD wheel, because a DD wheel seems like overkill for consoles. The CSW-v2 is almost overkill, too. In fact, some might even argue that it is.
DD wheels are awesome, but if you're gonna spend the cash, then why not get the most from them. With an Accuforce running on PC, you can use SimCommander to get maximum customization for your personal feel. This TM wheel doesn't even look like you can change the rim. It'd have to be pretty cheap for me to get a base with a fixed rim.
Strange, I got my first ever landmine about a week ago. Can't remember the track, but I doubt it was Watkins, because I don't run it much. I'll run a few laps there this weekend to test. I was surprised when it happened to me last week, because, until then, I'd only heard and seen videos of it happening to other people. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that I got one around the same time I've started having increased incidents of FFB and sound dropping at the start of sessions, and the FFB feeling corrupted coming out of the pits.
I just use Watkins because I know what I can run there or at least used to.:confused:I know people have had these issues but up until now ive been really lucky I guess. Now it seems like I'm getting all of them at once. It seems odd to me both of us started having problems after the clean reinstall. I didn't have time last night because I had kid stuff at school but I'm going to try the rebuild database tonight and see what happens. I wanted to play around with the scoops some more but now I'm not even sure what I felt is going to be correct .lol Until I can run the lap times I was running before with my old numbers I cant be sure of anything.
Sorry must have missed this , no Mate not using any apps =( might take a look at them again .
I like that one. Ive had a couple but that works really well and he keeps adding features to it.
I just use Watkins because I know what I can run there or at least used to.:confused:I know people have had these issues but up until now ive been really lucky I guess. Now it seems like I'm getting all of them at once. It seems odd to me both of us started having problems after the clean reinstall. I didn't have time last night because I had kid stuff at school but I'm going to try the rebuild database tonight and see what happens. I wanted to play around with the scoops some more but now I'm not even sure what I felt is going to be correct .lol Until I can run the lap times I was running before with my old numbers I cant be sure of anything.
Yeah... before that reinstall, I was basically glitch free. Sure the FFB and/or sound would drop at session start sometimes, but the incidents were so few and far between that it didn't even bother me. Now they happen at least once a day. I rebuilt the database after downloading all my DLC, and the dropping issues are better, still there though, more than before. I'll have to drive Watkins to see if I get any landmines. I don't think that's the track where it happened to me, because I'm pretty sure I was in an LMP, and I don't see why I'd run that car/track combo.
Depends on the price. If it's anywhere close to an Accuforce, I'd rather have that. Especially given TM's quality reputation. Not really looking to be an early adopter with that company...LOL
Honestly, though... I'd be surprised if it is a DD wheel, because a DD wheel seems like overkill for consoles. The CSW-v2 is almost overkill, too. In fact, some might even argue that it is.
DD wheels are awesome, but if you're gonna spend the cash, then why not get the most from them. With an Accuforce running on PC, you can use SimCommander to get maximum customization for your personal feel. This TM wheel doesn't even look like you can change the rim. It'd have to be pretty cheap for me to get a base with a fixed rim.
Agreed I hope the wheel isn't fixed. I don't really think it would be overkill if it works right and its priced accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised to see more dd wheels for consoles because there really isn't anywhere left to go with whats out there now if they want to improve them. I'm sure accuforce is great with simcommander but the price for the wheel and pc puts it out of what id be willing to spend to play a game.
Fight-Test
20-05-2016, 14:28
TM did say a few weeks ago they had a new wheel coming g with a low price point. It's to match the new Xbox wheel they released a few weeks ago. Would below the t300 but that looks more expensive than t300 except the rim looks like crap.
TM did say a few weeks ago they had a new wheel coming g with a low price point. It's to match the new Xbox wheel they released a few weeks ago. Would below the t300 but that looks more expensive than t300 except the rim looks like crap.
That one is out already the tmx
Fight-Test
20-05-2016, 14:33
The xbox one is. I don't think it's ps4 compatible. The ps4 one was to follow per their post.
The xbox one is. I don't think it's ps4 compatible. The ps4 one was to follow per their post.
Sorry misread your post. Yes that is for x box.
Agreed I hope the wheel isn't fixed. I don't really think it would be overkill if it works right and its priced accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised to see more dd wheels for consoles because there really isn't anywhere left to go with whats out there now if they want to improve them. I'm sure accuforce is great with simcommander but the price for the wheel and pc puts it out of what id be willing to spend to play a game.
If they can make a low cost DD wheel with the strength and fidelity you'd expect from one, or at least close, then I agree. Most of the current DDs aren't expensive because of the manufacturing costs. They're expensive because of the lower sales volume in relation to the development and manufacturing costs. TM could price one lower, with the expectation of more sales. But the fixed rim would be a mistake, IMO.
The thing that I'd need to see is if a console even has the processing power to deliver the higher fidelity DD wheels are capable of. PCars is already pushing consoles to the max, and from the videos, it looks like GT sport isn't going to leave a lot of resource power to spare. But wheel manufacturers are probably all scrambling right now to get a piece of this growing console market. Some of the products they put out in the next couple years, might not really be ideal for consoles. They just want the dollars.
If TM was smart, they'd develop a new F1 Rim. The current Ferrari replica is okay, but it looks too much like a toy--too much plastic--and half the buttons are fake. But from the low end rims they've been releasing, I think they are trying to cater more to the casual console racer--budget minded and perhaps a bit more sim-cade oriented.
TM did say a few weeks ago they had a new wheel coming g with a low price point. It's to match the new Xbox wheel they released a few weeks ago. Would below the t300 but that looks more expensive than t300 except the rim looks like crap.
I agree. The wheel looks too much like a toy. I'm guessing the silver knobs don't actually work, either. I'd be surprised if they did.
GrimeyDog
20-05-2016, 15:15
TBH... I dont Really Know what the Hype is over DD wheels...I just want 1... LOL... The V2 stronger than you Need for FFB... Its very Accurate and Responsive also so i cant really see how it would be that Big of a game Changer:confused: also it dont Matter what the wheel if the Games FFB and physics are Not good it just is what it is.
TBH... I dont Really Know what the Hype is over DD wheels...I just want 1... LOL... The V2 stronger than you Need for FFB... Its very Accurate and Responsive also so i cant really see how it would be that Big of a game Changer:confused: also it dont Matter what the wheel if the Games FFB and physics are Not good it just is what it is.
DD wheels can be more than twice as strong as a CSW-v2, and have a much higher resolution, which means better precision and a higher level of fidelity. The direct drive also allows for a faster response time. DD wheels provide a far more realistic sim experience, which is why you'd be hard pressed to find a professional simulator that doesn't use one. I've seen comparative reviews that have said the CSW-v2 has only about the 30% of the strength of DD wheels like Accuforce and Bodnar.
That said, I agree. If the sim software doesn't produce good FFB, it's pointless. Which was kind of my point above about wondering if consoles could even make use of DD fidelity.
DD wheels can be more than twice as strong as a CSW-v2, and have a much higher resolution, which means better precision and a higher level of fidelity. The direct drive also allows for a faster response time. DD wheels provide a far more realistic sim experience, which is why you'd be hard pressed to find a professional simulator that doesn't use one. I've seen comparative reviews that have said the CSW-v2 has only about the 30% of the strength of DD wheels like Accuforce and Bodnar.
That said, I agree. If the sim software doesn't produce good FFB, it's pointless. Which was kind of my point above about wondering if consoles could even make use of DD fidelity.
That's the thing with the market changing to much better sim based games for consoles we should be able to take advantage of it. Actually now is a great time to be console racer and I'm sure the companies are noticing our buying power. Most of us started playing gt in our 20s and are now in our 40s and can afford better equipment. Anything that can be done to take slop out of the wheel is going to be better. All of our wheels have some regardless if its belt or gear driven. There is no reason that a steamlined system similar to accuforce couldn't be built into the wheel like your csw uses on consoles to adjust things. Even if it was only half as strong as a high end dd wheel it would still be a step up from what we have now.
That's the thing with the market changing to much better sim based games for consoles we should be able to take advantage of it. Actually now is a great time to be console racer and I'm sure the companies are noticing our buying power. Most of us started playing gt in our 20s and are now in our 40s and can afford better equipment. Anything that can be done to take slop out of the wheel is going to be better. All of our wheels have some regardless if its belt or gear driven. There is no reason that a steamlined system similar to accuforce couldn't be built into the wheel like your csw uses on consoles to adjust things. Even if it was only half as strong as a high end dd wheel it would still be a step up from what we have now.
True. But like Grimey said, the software has to be able to produce the detail. Consoles have limited processing power. Take PCars for example. It's already maxing the console out. Where would the additional processing power needed come from? I agree, with the right motor, it would be an improvement over belt-driven, and far better than gears. But the FFB on Xb1 doesn't have the same fidelity as the PS4, and neither are as detailed as PC. So the question is, would the improvement be worth the money? I guess it depends on the price point.
But, if I had to use that ugly rim for open wheel racing, I'd just take a pass...LOL
True. But like Grimey said, the software has to be able to produce the detail. Consoles have limited processing power. Take PCars for example. It's already maxing the console out. Where would the additional processing power needed come from? I agree, with the right motor, it would be an improvement over belt-driven, and far better than gears. But the FFB on Xb1 doesn't have the same fidelity as the PS4, and neither are as detailed as PC. So the question is, would the improvement be worth the money? I guess it depends on the price point.
But, if I had to use that ugly rim for open wheel racing, I'd just take a pass...LOL
You have to remember the new consoles are coming out so there will be more to work with. There is just too much information available to believe they aren't coming. I'm sure the makers of gt knew that which could be behind the new wheel from thrustmaster. At least we can hope. I agree I'm not a huge fan of that wheel and I hope they don't get away from being able to change them.
You have to remember the new consoles are coming out so there will be more to work with. There is just too much information available to believe they aren't coming. I'm sure the makers of gt knew that which could be behind the new wheel from thrustmaster. At least we can hope. I agree I'm not a huge fan of that wheel and I hope they don't get away from being able to change them.
Definitely could work better with the newer consoles. Not sure about PS4.5, but the next generation will surely be a huge step forward as far as processing power goes. Problem is, they still have to balance price with specs. Both MS and Sony could have built a faster console with the current generation. They just couldn't do it and keep the cost within the desired range. If the cost gets too high, then people will just buy a PC. They also can't come out too quick, because they just released this generation.
Not sure what's up with all of TM's fixed wheel products lately. It really doesn't make sense, unless they are shifting to a casual-gamer strategy.
Definitely could work better with the newer consoles. Not sure about PS4.5, but the next generation will surely be a huge step forward as far as processing power goes. Problem is, they still have to balance price with specs. Both MS and Sony could have built a faster console with the current generation. They just couldn't do it and keep the cost within the desired range. If the cost gets too high, then people will just buy a PC. They also can't come out too quick, because they just released this generation.
Not sure what's up with all of TM's fixed wheel products lately. It really doesn't make sense, unless they are shifting to a casual-gamer strategy.
I actually read an interesting article on why the new ps and xbox are coming. It actually made a lot of sense. The reason wasn't to improve them but because of cost. The improvement came because of keeping cost down. With amd switching to a different smaller chip it would have been more expensive to keep the old one. It kind of forced their hands. Id actually be ok with a shorter lifespan if they kept the 400-500 dollar price range. Technology is advancing to fast to stay with the old console lifespan. Its still way cheaper than a pc and they wouldn't be as far behind as long as they didn't obsolete the old games like ps4 did.
I actually read an interesting article on why the new ps and xbox are coming. It actually made a lot of sense. The reason wasn't to improve them but because of cost. The improvement came because of keeping cost down. With amd switching to a different smaller chip it would have been more expensive to keep the old one. It kind of forced their hands. Id actually be ok with a shorter lifespan if they kept the 400-500 dollar price range. Technology is advancing to fast to stay with the old console lifespan. Its still way cheaper than a pc and they wouldn't be as far behind as long as they didn't obsolete the old games like ps4 did.
I wouldn't mind a shorter lifespan at all. I think it would be great! I don't care for backwards compatibility, though. It's a nice idea, but it often means you can't go as far forward with tech improvements in the new unit. If I want to play the old games, I'll just keep the old console until I'm done with it. That's why Xb1 and PS4 dropped it, and then just started revamping the more popular games to work with the new consoles.
That being said. If consoles start running on 4-5 year life cycles, then I'd probably go back to PC, because that's about the life of a graphics card.
===============
Global settings
===============
TireForce - 100
Deadzone Range - 0.08 <- Wheel specific
Deadzone Falloff - 0.002 <- Wheel specific
RA Gain - 1.00
RA Bleed - 0.12
RA Clamp - 1.75
SC Half - 3.20 <- Wheel specific
SC Full - 1.80
Scoop Knee - 1.00 <- Wheel specific
Scoop Reduction - 0.07 <- Wheel specific
Steering Gain - 1.0
Force Feedback - 100
Cleaver... I see what you did there ;)
At first i was saying to myself: Well, why not just lower TF or SG to have a lower maximum torque...
The problem with this is that is also increases the FFB deadzone. When using Scoops like you did, you lower the whole slope without increasing the FFB deadzone! :D
Skoader strikes again!
GrimeyDog
20-05-2016, 19:33
http://www.isrtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG-20160519-WA0013.jpg
from the Back it looks like its a DD wheel to me... The 4 pin hole on the right thats above the fire wire port looks to be the power supply plugs in because TM has No shifters/hand Brakes etc with that type of plug.
GrimeyDog
20-05-2016, 19:58
https://youtu.be/fnugyXhVsZI
Sim racing Garrage DD Wheel shoot out... Leo bodner -VS- OSW -VS- Accuforce!!! Great indepth Video review with Random opinions of 3 people who tested all 3 wheel on same Rig...very surprising results!!!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2023 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.