View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
What's good for some just isn't good for others.
I think feedback is just that subjective.
If you tried my settings you might love them or hate them, but for me I just can't get any better feel from any settings.
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Just grab a plate or a pre modded thrustmaster wheel from ricmotech. There is a weight u can't go over so some rims will be too heavy. But most momo will work.
I know. You can put a Momo on a Fanatec hub, too. But Momo rims are expensive. Fanatec has a pretty good offering of rims, $99 each. :)
Just confirmed the new thrustmaster wheel is a true direct drive.:D Wheel goes directly on the motor.
So, here's a troubling thought... Sony recently made Fanatec take the "PS3/PS4 Compatible" off the website, because technically the based aren't, which is why they don't work in the dashboard menus, only in-game, because developers build support for the wheel.
With this Thrustmaster branded GT7 wheel, I'm wondering if GT7 will support Fanatec on release. Seems odd that Sony would get particular about that compatibility detail after it being on the website for YEARS. Coincidence?
What's good for some just isn't good for others.
I think feedback is just that subjective.
If you tried my settings you might love them or hate them, but for me I just can't get any better feel from any settings.
I agree on the subjective nature of it all but seeing as you have a wheel that is named as a play on the word fanatic, um well hey thats a great point! /smarmy/off
It really makes me feel better about myself that I'm not the only one here on a Friday and a holiday weekend to boot (Memorial Day for you international types).
1. if everything after Spindle and SOP is disabled the signal the monitor displays is exactly whatīs been calculated in the core FFB department > TF, FxzyMz Spindle and Sop.....right?
Being at the very end of the chain where the signal has been clipped, the FFB monitor only shows forces that are in the force to wheel range. That being 0 - 1.0.
2. if that yellow line runs flat against top/bottom 100% signal resolution or maximum is calculated at this stage....right?
Maximum force that can be sent to the wheel yes.
3. if I interpret the following signal flow correct Spindle/Sop Scale is prior Relative Adjust etc....right?
Yes.
The easiest way is to take your classic file, #1. Crank TF 2 times. Then use Soft Clipping in a linear fashion, just as a compressor. To lower the signal 2 times. It should give the same FFB.
Good little experiment. :)
If doubling TF, then you also need to lift the Relative Adjust Clamp to twice it's original setting. Also, to get close to a linear rescaling back down with Soft Clip, use SC Half = 10.0, SC Full = 2.0.
I agree on the subjective nature of it all but seeing as you have a wheel that is named as a play on the word fanatic, um well hey thats a great point! /smarmy/off
Really!?
tennenbaum
28-05-2016, 06:33
Being at the very end of the chain where the signal has been clipped, the FFB monitor only shows forces that are in the force to wheel range. That being 0 - 1.0.
Maximum force that can be sent to the wheel yes.
Yes.
Good little experiment. :)
If doubling TF, then you also need to lift the Relative Adjust Clamp to twice it's original setting. Also, to get close to a linear rescaling back down with Soft Clip, use SC Half = 10.0, SC Full = 2.0.
Everything said here goes along with my findings.
tennenbaum
28-05-2016, 06:56
Yes the default setup can clip, but that clipping doesn't occur prior to Relative Adjust->Soft Clip.
If a default setup marginally clips with the Master scale set to 26 (Combined spindle forces reach a magnitude of 1.0). Then it follows that before reaching the Master Scale multiplier these forces were almost 4 times higher - the raw forces were peaking at around 4.0. Note that they weren't clipped at this early stage, if they were we couldn't have scaled them back down to 1.0 with the Master Scale multiplier 0.26. ;)
They aren't clipped prior to RA/SC either. The Relative Adjust clamp can be placed on forces as high as 2.0. Soft Clip full output can be configured to rescale forces as high as 10.0. How could it possibly do that if the signal was clipped back to 1.0 before reaching it?
Only after these compression routines are forces that are greater than 1.0 actually clipped.
i agree with skoader. the topic about forces > 1.00 not clipping before RAC (i call it "the invisible headrom, and the "factor 5") was discussed from skoader, JS and me already in January. Tests to prove it were also made. skoaders setting would not work if there isn't such headroom. i described and explained it detailed... see my link at the bottom. i'm actually a bit surprised that it didn't beome common knowledge yet.
tennenbaum
28-05-2016, 07:56
I agree with you on PWM, but I'm struggling to understand why you think saturation occurs prior to Relative Adjust and Soft Clip?
You must be under the impression that the settings I posted with my video earlier are incredibly saturated at this stage? With TF at 100, Master Scales at 100.0, Fz and Mz scales at 100.0, I'm effectively passing the raw values coming out of the tire simulation straight through to the compression routines unaltered.
They first hit the Relative Adjust module where I have my clamp set quite high at 1.75. In the V8 Supercar, with my Spindle & Sop settings tire forces are peaking at about 1.8. So they're only occasionally 'soft limited' by the Relative Adjust Clamp. Everything is in good shape coming out of here - No overly aggressive clamping or saturation.
The forces then hit Soft Clip. With Full Output Rescaling set to 1.8, the entire range of incoming forces (0 - 1.8) are rescaled back down to the (0 - 1.0) range. You can almost think of Soft Clip as another Master Scale control (albeit a non-linear scaler) that operates on everything that comes out of the Spindle/SoP -> Relative Adjust components.
Now all forces are in the 0 - 1.0 range. But at no point in this chain are forces overly limited or saturated. tennenbaum and poirqc also seem to have a good grasp on this.
this post should be a sticky :) skoader uses the true nature of the signal chain very elegantly. Utilizing the fact that he can do first a nuanced comression in the expanded higher range between 1.75 and 2.00 with RAC and then as second step a pretty linear downscaling with SC he can work with relatively high tireforces.
Thus giving him relatively more "resolution", in other words he can adjust tire forces more detailed. (but be aware of his very special SCHI/SCFO values. without knowing what these values actually do, it's hard to understand his entire setting. better check on skoaders graphs. the way he sets the values they do not "softclip" any more, they just downscale pretty linearly.)
it was said (which i believe) that pCars FFB system doesn't have to deal with signal to noise problems ( in the context of the possibility "to starve the tire forces"*), but despite that by using the available headroom, skoader does "expand" the scales. Doing so he actually does get more differentiation of the tireforces. It's like a magnifier glas, so you can see better, what you wanna cut or or manipulate later with the RA and SC module.
It reminds me somehow of what Dolby did when they surprised the audio industry in the 70ies when they increased fidelity without changing the absolute signal norm level. briefly: expand all, thereby lifting the noise too, then - now that the noise got to a level that you can "see" it, cut it off with a filter for low levels, so noise dissappeared, then de-expand (downscale) the entire signal again to its original size... now you got a better sound. looks like cheap trick, is a trick, but Dolby got rich and famous) :D
*BTW1: Haiden wrote a great post http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1204810&viewfull=1#post1204810about a potential lack of differentiation when you set Tireforces too low. Which i wasn't actually aware of at that time, following bmanics aporoach. Now looking back and reading Haiden's clear sight on it, it occurs to me how much knowledge and approvals got collected here over time.
BTW2: when SMS set SMS at 26 together with the FxyzMz 100 default (after the poll, according to JS) IMO they simply decided to allow not clipping but a certain degree of soft-limiting with RAC. This way the lowered deadzone, increased over all fidelity, got more wheel weight, with only a litte loss of differentiation in the higher forces of 80-100. So they kept it relatively linear. Actually more linear than most people like it: Many increased tireforces (but without adjusting RAC and SC accordingy) which results in more compression, therefore loosing details in the higher forces, butt getting a heavier wheel, that feels relatively (not absolute) stronger.
tennenbaum
28-05-2016, 08:46
Sorry about that tennenbaum. I knew nothing of the whole youtube/GEMA debacle until I uploaded this. I've uploaded another version without the music here.
https://youtu.be/5z0hToEIQSM
thanks! when i found the time today to watch it, the telemetry line proves your settings: lively, "talkative", dynamic, detailled, no (over-)saturation. very nice. (since i put my wheel away for a while, because of more job work load and be more often in the mountains, i regret i can't try out your setting practically ;-)
Sidenote: People who wonder about your seemingly high tireforce values not leading to saturation should note that Mz and SoPdiff produce high values during cornerings only quickly, thus not ramping up to more constant high signal levels. Even more, both forces are counteracted by the "inverse working" Fz. Counteracting means Fz really subtracts mathematically from the sum of the others forces. not in static way, of course, but dynamically depending on the momentarily given moment of time during driving. If you set Fy and/or SoPlat to 100 the rest of the setting wouldn't work.
Your setting shows nicely how much it depends on which of the 6 tireforces you use primarerly. If you choose e.g. the 100/100/100/100 default, your setting get's kind of 'overdriven', because even with RAC set to 2.00 you can't avoid oversaturation, due to forces adding up to values much higher than 2.00. (just mentioning that for other readers, who may be not fully familiar with how specific your setting is, considering to combine their tireforce mix with your elaborated globals...;-) poirqc said: skoader strikes again :D
Fight-Test
28-05-2016, 12:37
I know. You can put a Momo on a Fanatec hub, too. But Momo rims are expensive. Fanatec has a pretty good offering of rims, $99 each. :)
Used racing momo's can be bought for 30 or 40 bucks. Most teams get a new rim each season and sell off the old ones. Track forums are the best place. I have 2 momo for my racing kart. Both older and too heavy for my t300 but 90 bucks total for both. They have some wear but I jst rewrapped with alcantra. Plenty of cheaper options than momo also. With the amount of open top rims being made now that reduce weight you can use at of options on the t300 without adding too much weight.
tennenbaum could you include your FFB settings in a signature link, or point us to a post on them please?
So, here's a troubling thought... Sony recently made Fanatec take the "PS3/PS4 Compatible" off the website, because technically the based aren't, which is why they don't work in the dashboard menus, only in-game, because developers build support for the wheel.
With this Thrustmaster branded GT7 wheel, I'm wondering if GT7 will support Fanatec on release. Seems odd that Sony would get particular about that compatibility detail after it being on the website for YEARS. Coincidence?
I thought that was more because they were working on an agreement with sony so they had to take it down for now.
It really makes me feel better about myself that I'm not the only one here on a Friday and a holiday weekend to boot (Memorial Day for you international types).
I see youre still using a lot of wps at .04. You don't need that much if any. It just hurts the subtle forces in most cases. I'm not running any at this point and haven't in a while.
Same here--the wheel size is big a turn off, as well as TM's limited selection of rims. It also makes me wonder how strong the wheel motor is. Did they make the rim that size to work with its existing product line, or because the motor couldn't handle a larger heavier rim?
I've heard Fanatec was already working on a DD wheel. If they weren't, they certainly are now. :) I'm just gonna wait for that. I'm sure whatever the make, will work with their existing rims.
I'm assuming the new TM wheel works with their existing pedal sets, so in theory, the CPX adapter should still work, allowing you to use Clubsport V3s. If that's no longer an option, that would really suck.
I'm wondering if it is actually small or just looks like it in the picture. I had actually emailed them a while back asking why they don't offer full size wheels. They replied they couldn't answer what was in the works. So maybe?
GrimeyDog
28-05-2016, 14:04
So, here's a troubling thought... Sony recently made Fanatec take the "PS3/PS4 Compatible" off the website, because technically the based aren't, which is why they don't work in the dashboard menus, only in-game, because developers build support for the wheel.
With this Thrustmaster branded GT7 wheel, I'm wondering if GT7 will support Fanatec on release. Seems odd that Sony would get particular about that compatibility detail after it being on the website for YEARS. Coincidence?
As it is Now You Can Be 100% Sure Gt7 will NOT Support Fanatec Wheel... Its a 1st party Sony AAA Title!!!! Drive Club is a Good Example if this!!!
The Only way Fanatec Wheels will work with GT7 is if or when Fanatec Brings out a Hub thats PS4 specific... Other than that Fugggedaboudit!!!
.
So I could try to isolate something weird I was getting back from my wheel that I could both feel and see in the ffb window I tried lowering all my in car sliders except the main one. I figured it would help determine where the odd bump/grab and notch were coming from, lowered everything to about 20% of normal and still got the weird signal.
Ok so I went back to the wheel calibration knowing it had to be there but then again just could not determine what module was causing the issue. Went to default settings and reset a mustang gt because I know pretty much exactly what to expect from the feel of it, immediately that weird signal was gone so I knew it's not a wheel defect per se. Went to the settings I know should be good and close to correct, DRR .06 and the default setting of DRF.01, changed my scoops to what FCM said they should be, changed RAB to .03 and suddenly the wheel felt pretty much exactly like a Mustang GT should feel like, switched to the little RS and it felt perfect after a default reset, went to the formula A which I would drive despite having really no feel to anything but heavy and suddenly I was driving Donnington GT in 1:12's lap after lap, the thing just felt great and I understood why it has the records everywhere. I even drove the Renault clio cup, a car I could not get around any track previously, I mean everyone can drive a great car but driving a crapbox fast takes skill and most importantly a great deal of feel and while it will take me a bit to have really really good times with that piece of crap I was hitting times that surprised me.
Ok great but the question I've been trying to answer since if why the RA module is messing with me. OK bleed doesn't seem to do very much right now, clamp does change wheel weight quite a bit but RAG as soon I as I adjust off the default I start getting bad signal stuff, bumps and notches, what am I missing?
I have two wheel settings up on the oscarlim site under the T300, the bottom one is the smoothest wheel with lots of info to my hands and the other wheel setup causes some kind of really bad noise to my wheel. I just can't see what's right in front of me for some reason, if anyone has the time and ideas please tell me what I'm missing.
Rab above .03 will make the forces grab/hang and get real heavy too long. You should be able to use the same rac and rag values I use without any issues. Are you using jacks car ffb settings?
You Can Be 100% Sure Gt7 will NOT Support Fanatec Wheel... Its a 1st party Sony AAA Title!!!! Drive Club is a Good Example if this!!!
.
That seems really stupid to me. Why would you automatically want to alienate a big portion of potential buyers. Many wheel users are very loyal to a certain brand.
I see youre still using a lot of wps at .04. You don't need that much if any. It just hurts the subtle forces in most cases. I'm not running any at this point and haven't in a while.
You are correct, I cleared that setting some time ago but in my troubleshooting I've been changing one thing at a time to try and find what's happening. Mind you I was only able to define the bump/grab notch thing because for what may be the first time I got to feel a very clean wheel.
Did you see anything odd in my settings?
GrimeyDog
28-05-2016, 14:22
What's good for some just isn't good for others.
I think feedback is just that subjective.
If you tried my settings you might love them or hate them, but for me I just can't get any better feel from any settings.
Big Dad i Hate your settings... They are Over under saturated all at the same Time... The inverse action of the thingamabob dont line up with the counter action of the whatchamacallit:) LOL JK.
As it is Now You Can Be 100% Sure Gt7 will NOT Support Fanatec Wheel... Its a 1st party Sony AAA Title!!!! Drive Club is a Good Example if this!!!
The Only way Fanatec Wheels will work with GT7 is if or when Fanatec Brings out a Hub thats PS4 specific... Other than that Fugggedaboudit!!!
.
Sony doesn't give a rats a$$ about what people think or might want, it's about what Sony wants, remember when music first started being shared online? Sony was one of the first to file suits against not just the software creators, but against thousands and thousands of teenagers and regular people. I have had a good deal of not very enjoyable interaction with Sony people over the years and will just leave it with that.
Rab above .03 will make the forces grab/hang and get real heavy too long. You should be able to use the same rac and rag values I use without any issues. Are you using jacks car ffb settings?
I had been using RAB of .03 for some time and only changed it when trying to find less over saturated ones, as a matter of practice .03 is my RAB setting.
When I feel I've lost what I'm trying to feel or just need a base I use the JS FFB settings but in general I bought into the GrimeyDogMethod™ pretty much from the start.
Sony doesn't give a rats a$$ about what people think or might want, it's about what Sony wants, remember when music first started being shared online? Sony was one of the first to file suits against not just the software creators, but against thousands and thousands of teenagers and regular people. I have had a good deal of not very enjoyable interaction with Sony people over the years and will just leave it with that.
They may not care about people, but they care about money. The more hardware the wheel works with, the more games the sell. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)
tennenbaum
28-05-2016, 15:35
tennenbaum could you include your FFB settings in a signature link, or point us to a post on them please?
OK, you find my settings following the link "FFB driving tests", or here. (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620)
Frankly, i got so used to experiment with different settings, that i never cared much to optimize my own. It depends on my mood. Grimey's i use when i wanna battle and "push". JS' i gladly use when i'm not sure what i want, because his settings are always good out of the box. I never use the SMS 100/100/100/100 default settings, though as far as i know Kie25 uses the defaults and is one of the fastest drivers around in competitions and hot lapping.
When i drive my own setting, i switch of RAG/B/C and SC and allow the fast tireforces (spikes) to clip for 20 - 30% and the slow forces (snake) to clip only 5 - 15% in the two, three spots of a track where i get the highest tire load. I start with "my own baseline" FxytFm setting 100/80/86/133, set TF = 100 and set SMS and SoPscale to a relatively small amount (according to the fact that i have relatively high Fx and Fy within the mix). I then adjust SMS and SoPscale to a value that i achieve just a little clipping as mentioned above. (Since FxyzFm, SMS, SoPscale and TF multiply distributively, the only thing that really matters is the result of the multiplication and the ratio between Fx Fy Fz and Mz.)
So obviously i use no compression, but i lift the entire signal for about 20-30 % for the spikes and 5-15% for the snake into the clipping zone (which happens only rarely on the track). You can call that "natural limiting". Those who know about my theories know that i don't see a problem with this kind of "controlled" clipping*. You can actually do it even stronger without much problem, as long as you adjust individually per track. E.g. if you know that you get a relatively much higher tier load in just one or two specific spots on a track you let them clip (since you obviously found out already how to push the car to the max at these spots without flying from the track) and look instead for the majority of other spots where you get the next almost highest tire load. That's where you set your tire forces that they are just close to clip. This way you get maximum FFB dynamic and info for 99% of the track, while 1% clips where it doesn't matter anyway. With this simple method of easily gaining 20 - 30% signal strength, IMO it's easier to achieve more dynamic, wheel weight and responsiveness, than by trying to max out your FFB with difficult RAG/C and SC settings.
(*We often did that as audio mixing engineers. When the guitar sounded distorted anyway, it didn't matter when we added some more distortion by technically induced distortion... what mattered was that we produced a "fat" sound, that was louder and more spectacular that the mixdown from the other studio. Now in the digital days you must be more careful with "headrooms", but the principle stayed the same.)
Saying so - of course - if you combine that track related signal adjustment with well thought through fine tunings with all the other possibilities you can even add some more "high fidelity" to it. Though don't hope you can do it by just taking the track related approach with its natural limiting and combine with e.g. Grimey's or skoader's settings. If you do so, you may have to tweak their tweaks a lot ;-)
I do that "natural limiting" because this way i get a bit more wheel weight and less deadzone without the need to use compression by RAC and/or SC. Which keeps my signal quite linear, and i don't have this spot in the I/O ratio where higher forces get bowed into saturation more or less abruptly, but you don't really know where that spot really is. Also not knowing how the I/O curve looks like in that area where the linear signal changes into subtler or stronger saturation. Which is the main reason in my eyes, why the FFB feel can unpredictably change when you change just one other parameter a bit. With my "uncompressing" setting this can't happen, meaning it doesn't happen that i increase e.g. Mz just a bit, but by doing so i "move" a specific slip angle input force "over the knee" and due to that suddenly into the area of much less differentiation. So every change i do with the ratios between FxyzMz i can feel rather pure along my "linear" i/o curve, instead of not knowing which of the all of sudden got into the "compression knee" area.
However as i pointed out many time, my FFB approach feels weird to most people when they try, because mine has only little relative weight, though it has a lot of dynamic that can be irritating, especially when you crank up the absolute wheel torque strength by setting master FFB high. That said, my FxyzMz baseline setting works for some cars (e.g. the RUF 8 GT3) but not for all the cars. So i find the "one rules it all" idea attractive but not fully applicable. Sometimes when my baseline feels weird with a certain car i use JS in-car values and change it slightly to my taste.
When you have the chance to take a look at the FFB driving test, it gets kind of clear, that the test covers 3 main basic approaches how to utilize the freedom of pCars many knobs in quite different ways. Grimey's with a fair amount of saturation, JS's with his intriguingly maxed out ratios in all aspects, and SMS default. (my own setting in that test rather stands for the "pure" approach with all tireforces kept in the range of 0.00 - 1.30 without RAG and SC. since it's exotic to most, i don't count for it as a basic approach.) But my test didn't cover the forth different basic approach: the one from bmanic, which is fundamentally different than the other three. I always wanted to add a testdrive with his settings to the test, because he for sure stands for an unique basic approach.
And then skoader came and presented a 5th rudimentary different method. From what i see when i look at his numbers, i expect a fantastic practical experience. (Pity i can't test it pracically these days). I think now with his setting, the important "big 5" approaches are made. Possibly morpwr's setting should be added, even that it seems to me like a derivate setting from JS's setting. Because i think morpwr did some "supertuning" to JS' setting. He runs RAB lower and changed the entire FFB feel at its very source by lowering the steering ratio.
So I'd be so great if somebody could expand and complete my driving test by adding bmanics, skoaders and morpwrs setting. I think then we'd curated "The Big 6", highly maxed out methods to tune pCars' FFB but all with a different "signature" style. Would be great for newcomers, like 6 recipies from star cooks, instead of one "cheat sheet" that would be always a compromise leaving the guys in the dark about the many possibilities... If i overlooked an approach #7 or #8 i apologize, being curious what it could be.
gotdirt410sprintcar
28-05-2016, 15:49
Hey morpwr I shut the ps4 down from the button on the ps4 last night. It went in to sleep mode pcars was the game started ps4 just now it started where I left off plug wheel in press x good to go but I was at main menu but should work in race too.
They may not care about people, but they care about money. The more hardware the wheel works with, the more games the sell. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)
From my experience Sony has taken quite a few actions that showed adherence to its corporate philosophy trumped making more money, Sony is still fighting the online music industry as of today. I would bet money that Sony had a part in the legal wrangling that prevents people overseas from seeing YouTube vids that include background music.
While yes I do buy Sony products I have a huge hard on for Sony Corp lol, it seems like another lifetime now but I used to be very active in the bbs systems before the Internet and then was online when there was nothing but schools really in terms of what the public could access and IMO if Sony had its way it would still be like that! Did I mention I have issues with Sony? ROFLMAO
Hey morpwr I shut the ps4 down from the button on the ps4 last night. It went in to sleep mode pcars was the game started ps4 just now it started where I left off plug wheel in press x good to go but I was at main menu but should work in race too.
Problem with that according to thrustmaster is the wheel might not work or work right. They recommend disabling sleep mode for pcars for that reason but it would be nice if it did work.
gotdirt410sprintcar
28-05-2016, 16:41
Problem with that according to thrustmaster is the wheel might not work or work right. They recommend disabling sleep mode for pcars for that reason but it would be nice if it did work.
Felt the same to me probably does happen though.
I had been using RAB of .03 for some time and only changed it when trying to find less over saturated ones, as a matter of practice .03 is my RAB setting.
When I feel I've lost what I'm trying to feel or just need a base I use the JS FFB settings but in general I bought into the GrimeyDogMethod™ pretty much from the start.
That's interesting seeing your one set looks very close to mine but youre using grimeys car settings. That would probably explain the lower ffb master though with grimeys car settings.
Jack Spade
28-05-2016, 16:45
@ skoader
I did your rescaling experiment - TF * 2 = 150, SC Half = 10.0, SC Full = 2.0
Indeed thereīs no saturation -> with the red marked values.
TF = 75 / 150
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 1.50
RA Bleed = 0.10
RA Clamp = 0.85 / 200
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0 / 10.0
SC Full = 0 / 2.0
PWM = 0.00 / -0.05
PWMS = 0.00 / 0.03
Steering Gain = 105 / 100
Note, RA Clamp set at 200 to avoid a second re scaling process.
In A/B comparison settings do not feel 100% identical but close. Would it be an audio A/B comparison I would
say thereīs a thin curtain in front of the red marked. Itīs something you donīt really notice on the waveform
on the monitor as everything seems to be there but some detail is missing.
tennenbaum
28-05-2016, 16:57
@ skoader
I did your rescaling experiment - TF * 2 = 150, SC Half = 10.0, SC Full = 2.0
Indeed thereīs no saturation -> with the red marked values.
TF = 75 / 150
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 1.50
RA Bleed = 0.10
RA Clamp = 0.85 / 200
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0 / 10.0
SC Full = 0 / 2.0
PWM = 0.00 / -0.05
PWMS = 0.00 / 0.03
Steering Gain = 105 / 100
Note, RA Clamp set at 200 to avoid a second re scaling process.
In A/B comparison settings do not feel 100% identical but close. Would it be an audio A/B comparison I would
say thereīs a thin curtain in front of the red marked. Itīs something you donīt really notice on the waveform
on the monitor as everything seems to be there but some detail is missing.
WOW!! Guys you rock!
Theoretically i expected skoaders assumption to be correct. But i didn't expect your test would prove the result comes this close - taking Soft Clipper's rather non-linear behavior into account.
It proves skoader's graphs valid predicting that with higher SCHI values the I/O ratios gets more and more linear, while the SCFO value really sets the ceiling from where the forces being higher than 1.00 will be "picked" and then funneled by SCHI downscaling.
I'm curious if the significance of skoader's approach and JS's prove will be widely noticed ;-)
May i dare to say this also proves the existence of the "invisible headroom" allowing tire forces >1.00 to "live unclipped" before being funneled (or not funneled) into the normalized 0.00 - 1.00 signal range by RAC and/or SCHI/SCFO ;)
That's interesting seeing your one set looks very close to mine but youre using grimeys car settings. That would probably explain the lower ffb master though with grimeys car settings.
Unless I back off on the ffb setting the wheel is totally over saturated.
So yes I kept trying to emulate where you were at just to pin down where my bump-catch notch thing was coming from.
Unless I back off on the ffb setting the wheel is totally over saturated.
So yes I kept trying to emulate where you were at just to pin down where my bump-catch notch thing was coming from.
Just now I drove the Pagani huayra with GrimeyDog's settings and no feel but a very heavy mz feel with huge dead zone and immediate clipping on wheel movement despite moving RAC to .75, yea makes no sense.
Just now I drove the Pagani huayra with GrimeyDog's settings and no feel but a very heavy mz feel with huge dead zone and immediate clipping on wheel movement despite moving RAC to .75, yea makes no sense.
It actually does. He uses a more saturated approach. My old scoop settings did the same thing especially on cold tires. No feel. Try ALL my settings exactly like they are with jacks classic settings. I get you want a one thing for all approach but I just don't get how it can work for every car. If you try to set mz and fy up yourself like I did youll probably find jacks numbers are so close it not worth doing yourself. Mz being off will throw everything off and make a big notch you cant get rid of. Give it a shot. Also set ffb master at 68 to start. I haven't updated the settings yet. Everything is the same except sr 48 sk 81 ddr .10.
Just now I drove the Pagani huayra with GrimeyDog's settings and no feel but a very heavy mz feel with huge dead zone and immediate clipping on wheel movement despite moving RAC to .75, yea makes no sense.
It actually does. He uses a more saturated approach. My old scoop settings did the same thing especially on cold tires. No feel. Try ALL my settings exactly like they are with jacks classic settings. I get you want a one thing for all approach but I just don't get how it can work for every car. If you try to set mz and fy up yourself like I did youll probably find jacks numbers are so close it not worth doing yourself. Mz being off will throw everything off and make a big notch you cant get rid of. Give it a shot. Also set ffb master at 68 to start. I haven't updated the settings yet. Everything is the same except sr 48 sk 81 ddr .10.
My understanding is that the logic behind individual in-car settings isn't an intent to make all cars feel the same or normalize their mechanical differences. It's to compensate for the way the cars were modeled. A one-size fits all assumes that the car models all interact with the physics model the same way.
GrimeyDog
28-05-2016, 18:49
I had been using RAB of .03 for some time and only changed it when trying to find less over saturated ones, as a matter of practice .03 is my RAB setting.
When I feel I've lost what I'm trying to feel or just need a base I use the JS FFB settings but in general I bought into the GrimeyDogMethod™ pretty much from the start.
What Feel are you trying to Create???
What Exact Settings are you using?? Can you post them so i can have a look at them.
[QUOTE=Haiden;1282545]My understanding is that the logic behind individual in-car settings isn't an intent to make all cars feel the same or normalize their mechanical differences. It's to compensate for the way the cars were modeled. A one-size fits all assumes that the car models all interact with the physics model the same way.[/Q
Exactly. Jacks settings do not make the cars feel the same they just balance the forces. Besides setting up mz and fy for every car is a pita. Let alone the rest of the forces and jack did a great job with them so I just use them.
What Feel are you trying to Create???
What Exact Settings are you using?? Can you post them so i can have a look at them.
Looks like a cross between mine and yours.
GrimeyDog
28-05-2016, 19:26
[QUOTE=Haiden;1282545]My understanding is that the logic behind individual in-car settings isn't an intent to make all cars feel the same or normalize their mechanical differences. It's to compensate for the way the cars were modeled. A one-size fits all assumes that the car models all interact with the physics model the same way.[/Q
Exactly. Jacks settings do not make the cars feel the same they just balance the forces. Besides setting up mz and fy for every car is a pita. Let alone the rest of the forces and jack did a great job with them so I just use them.
Using same in car settings all Cars remain with their own individual Feel as can clearly be seen by watching the FFB graph in the Videos i have been posting.
All Cars inregards to FFB interact with the Global Physics system the same way...unless there is a physics system programed per car... The thing that makes each car feel different is the physics that have been programed in for a particular car and the Car suspension.
FFB settings only determins How Strong Bumps, Curbs, Weight transfer ETC forces feel How the Car Handles those forces is a Matter of Suspension tweeking.
gotdirt410sprintcar
28-05-2016, 19:31
I'm sorry this pcars but watching the bush race today 600 tomorrow we need a real NASCAR game just like 09 online lobbys like it was in 09 the last few you could never join. And practice chill or whatever they where missin that hole part careers and online should be separate. and that's all I have to say about that
[QUOTE=morpwr;1282549]
Using same in car settings all Cars remain with their own individual Feel as can clearly be seen by watching the FFB graph in the Videos i have been posting.
All Cars inregards to FFB interact with the Global Physics system the same way...unless there is a physics system programed per car... The thing that makes each car feel different is the physics that have been programed in for a particular car and the Car suspension.
FFB settings only determins How Strong Bumps, Curbs, Weight transfer ETC forces feel How the Car Handles those forces is a Matter of Suspension tweeking.
That's sort of true. The problem with that statement is you can just like with wheel settings feel things that aren't really happening because things are out of balance. You can with mz,fy,fx make the car feel like it has zero grip and suspension tweaking may bandaid that but it wont fix it. So a blanket statement there could be misleading to new people. Like all the settings its not that simple.
I'm sorry this pcars but watching the bush race today 600 tomorrow we need a real NASCAR game just like 09 online lobbys like it was in 09 the last few you could never join. And practice chill or whatever they where missin that hole part careers and online should be separate. and that's I have to say about that
Hopefully the new one that's coming out will be better then all the previous p.o.s games in the past. Ive had a few of them and most were just horrible.
Ok stupid question here, I've been playing around to try and get the feedback I think there should be and I'm turning sliders down to try and isolate what's missing. I have zero, none, nothing in the way of tire crabbing, scrubbing, slipping or whatever phrase you want to use. Straight line burnout, nothing until there is lateral force.
Ok but the other day I had that white line glitch in the ffb window and it chattered away on tire slippage around turns to the point of being really annoying. Does anyone feel the tires when they slip and if so is it that chatter thing?
If you have driveclub you know what I'm referring to. To make sure I'm not losing my mind I went to all my other driving games and it's the same sensation in all of them that is missing here. Am I losing my mind here or what?
What Feel are you trying to Create???
What Exact Settings are you using?? Can you post them so i can have a look at them.
Grimey here are the two base settings I use, the first one I'm getting a weird signal from, grabbing and a notch the second is a pretty light wheel but with decent feel to it.
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/185
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/186
Ok stupid question here, I've been playing around to try and get the feedback I think there should be and I'm turning sliders down to try and isolate what's missing. I have zero, none, nothing in the way of tire crabbing, scrubbing, slipping or whatever phrase you want to use. Straight line burnout, nothing until there is lateral force.
Ok but the other day I had that white line glitch in the ffb window and it chattered away on tire slippage around turns to the point of being really annoying. Does anyone feel the tires when they slip and if so is it that chatter thing?
If you have driveclub you know what I'm referring to. To make sure I'm not losing my mind I went to all my other driving games and it's the same sensation in all of them that is missing here. Am I losing my mind here or what?
Ok straight line you shouldn't feel that in the wheel until lateral kicks in.. Especially the burnout coming from the rear tires. Now are you talking only feel from the rear tires? What sliders are you turning down? The car or the wheel? The thing you felt the other day is wrong. It definitely shouldn't feel like that. That's the ffb mz glitch kicking in. You have to remember driveclub uses canned effects that you really shouldn't feel. Honestly I don't really think the ffb in drive club is very good but that's just my opinion.
Ok straight line you shouldn't feel that in the wheel until lateral kicks in.. Especially the burnout coming from the rear tires. Now are you talking only feel from the rear tires? What sliders are you turning down? The car or the wheel? The thing you felt the other day is wrong. It definitely shouldn't feel like that. That's the ffb mz glitch kicking in. You have to remember driveclub uses canned effects that you really shouldn't feel. Honestly I don't really think the ffb in drive club is very good but that's just my opinion.
Playing with the in car ffb settings to try to isolate individual feedback sensations.
I'm really torqued up right now at me just noticing an entire signal chain missing from the feedback.
I'm using driveclub to describe the exact sensation I'm referring to from the wheel, yea driveclub is crap mostly but it's worth noting you can tell when you're sliding for instance lol
Playing with the in car ffb settings to try to isolate individual feedback sensations.
I'm really torqued up right now at me just noticing an entire signal chain missing from the feedback.
I'm using driveclub to describe the exact sensation I'm referring to from the wheel, yea driveclub is crap mostly but it's worth noting you can tell when you're sliding for instance lol
OK so you mean like when you lock the brakes?
OK so you mean like when you lock the brakes?
Yes the brakes are another example. As far as the one particular motor or effect I'm referring to, as in driveclub for instance, I can not think of a single instance where pcars activates it. I'm trying to wheel in PS3/pc mode and it's still not being activated.
Yes the brakes are another example. As far as the one particular motor or effect I'm referring to, as in driveclub for instance, I can not think of a single instance where pcars activates it. I'm trying to wheel in PS3/pc mode and it's still not being activated.
I can clearly feel that with my settings . I can actually feel the the tires starting to skip before actually skidding. Its not actually one particular thing that does that but a combination. I can lose it just by changing drr for example. Same with scoops you can change the braking grip loss feel.
I can clearly feel that with my settings . I can actually feel the the tires starting to skip before actually skidding. Its not actually one particular thing that does that but a combination. I can lose it just by changing drr for example. Same with scoops you can change the braking grip loss feel.
Well I'm sorry my frustration is clearly showing up in the thread, I guess I'm going to have to start trying one click changes in the settings to see if I can get this nailed down finally. I've been following this thread from the start and no matter how many times I thought my ffb was giving me a good sense of things, clearly as yet I just don't have it set up correctly yet.
Any chance you have an opinion on a methodology to find the missing link? Yes there's a synergy to it all but in your opinion and experience do you think one or two sections might be more fruitful?
Well I'm sorry my frustration is clearly showing up in the thread, I guess I'm going to have to start trying one click changes in the settings to see if I can get this nailed down finally. I've been following this thread from the start and no matter how many times I thought my ffb was giving me a good sense of things, clearly as yet I just don't have it set up correctly yet.
Any chance you have an opinion on a methodology to find the missing link? Yes there's a synergy to it all but in your opinion and experience do you think one or two sections might be more fruitful?
If you're going to with grimeys way I think I'd try his suggestions but use my new scoops as they would be correct for your wheel. Not sure about the rab with his settings but I still think I'd try .03 to start.
If you're going to with grimeys way I think I'd try his suggestions but use my new scoops as they would be correct for your wheel. Not sure about the rab with his settings but I still think I'd try .03 to start.
Just to be sure, RAB is .030 and not .3 right? At one point there was something about RAB under .05 not doing any processing on the relative adjust parameters, bmanic mentioned it several times I believe.
I'm currently close to your ur scoop settings I believe, 81-43. Close enough or make the sdjustment?
Just to be sure, RAB is .030 and not .3 right? At one point there was something about RAB under .05 not doing any processing on the relative adjust parameters, bmanic mentioned it several times I believe.
.03 is correct. Above .03 it starts to do weird things. Remember that is a time based setting. It still does things below that it just doesn't have as long.its very easy to test. Don't change anything but rab. Set it at .10 and get a car sideways and pay attention to what the wheel does now turn it down to .01 and repeat. On our wheels it makes it very grabby at high settings.
Just to be sure, RAB is .030 and not .3 right? At one point there was something about RAB under .05 not doing any processing on the relative adjust parameters, bmanic mentioned it several times I believe.
I'm currently close to your ur scoop settings I believe, 81-43. Close enough or make the sdjustment?
I'd change the Sr to 48. Even at 46 there was a noticeable loss of brake/grip feel.
Using same in car settings all Cars remain with their own individual Feel as can clearly be seen by watching the FFB graph in the Videos i have been posting.
All Cars inregards to FFB interact with the Global Physics system the same way...unless there is a physics system programed per car... The thing that makes each car feel different is the physics that have been programed in for a particular car and the Car suspension.
FFB settings only determins How Strong Bumps, Curbs, Weight transfer ETC forces feel How the Car Handles those forces is a Matter of Suspension tweeking.
That's sort of true. The problem with that statement is you can just like with wheel settings feel things that aren't really happening because things are out of balance. You can with mz,fy,fx make the car feel like it has zero grip and suspension tweaking may bandaid that but it wont fix it. So a blanket statement there could be misleading to new people. Like all the settings its not that simple.
Not sure what the difference is, but whether the cars are interacting with a global model, or whether it's been programmed into the individual suspension models, it's still a variance, and that's what's Jack's setting attempt to normalize. The telemetry being different doesn't mean anything. The variance (whether it be in the global physics or the suspension) would produce a unique waveform either way.
Jack Spade
29-05-2016, 07:24
Using same in car settings all Cars remain with their own individual Feel as can clearly be seen by watching the FFB graph in the Videos i have been posting.
All Cars inregards to FFB interact with the Global Physics system the same way...unless there is a physics system programed per car... The thing that makes each car feel different is the physics that have been programed in for a particular car and the Car suspension.
FFB settings only determins How Strong Bumps, Curbs, Weight transfer ETC forces feel How the Car Handles those forces is a Matter of Suspension tweeking.
Almost.......actually I wouldnīt call it "physics system per car" but different output of physics per car. Thereīs almost no Fy on the Merc 300 SL, due to
the historic type of car construction as I have learned from Casey Ringley, on the Mazda Radbul Fy even is negative, just to name 2 extreme examples.
Fact is a large variation of levels of forces among the same group of cars, also there is a car depending dynamic factor of high downforce and weight
transfer under braking, I would not exclude human error here and there either. IMO there canīt be just one global car setting considering all those
things. The nice looking 100, 100, 100, 100 of the default FFB suggests something symmetric about this system which in truth is an illusion.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 09:41
Hi the Tweak Team !
I ran FCM 1.2 for the first time to confirm morpwr's new SK and SR (I use a slight tweak of his settings).
The result is... confusing. I made the test 3 times, with the same result. SK = 1 (!) & SR = 0.50, and the corrected curve linearity is not really good at the end.
Does it make sense ? Is my wheel normal ? Do I miss something ? (the Thrustmaster profile is set to default 75/100/100/100) and I emulate win7 on my mac to run FCM. Any feedback welcomed.
233690
Edit : I tested the settings on the track, of course, and the feeling is... light. I have a better feeling using SK 0.81 SR 0.48. But knowing that these values are not fitted to my wheel doesn't satisfy me...
I don't know exactly how the profile forces affect FCM, but generally people do not run any other force other than constant at 100%. Can you re-run FCM with only the constant force?
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 10:17
I don't know exactly how the profile forces affect FCM, but generally people do not run any other force other than constant at 100%. Can you re-run FCM with only the constant force?
Yes, it seems to be the first thing to do. I wasn't aware of that point. Thanks konnos
Edit : Ok, after running FCM with only constant forces 100% and other forces to 0, I have something more "normal".
But I still have several questions like :
1- Do we have to set in the profiler overall forces to 75% (Default) or 100% ? I guess 75, but not sure. And of course the results are different.
2 - When I press the "calculate R2" button in FCM, I obtain the best R2 using scoops, but not soft clip. I guess the nearest the R2 is from 1 the better the linearity is. Playing a little bit with all the sliders allowed me to raise the final R2 from 0.9875 to 0.9938. But do I have to thrust this and put soft clipping in my mix ? Of course I will test all that stuff on track, but if someone has the response to these questions, it will be great ;-)
Here are my results (profiler overall forces 75%, constant 100%, others 0)
Yes, it seems to be the first thing to do. I wasn't aware of that point. Thanks konnos
Edit : Ok, after running FCM with only constant forces 100% and other forces to 0, I have something more "normal".
But I still have several questions like :
1- Do we have to set in the profiler overall forces to 75% (Default) or 100% ? I guess 75, but not sure. And of course the results are different.
2 - When I press the "calculate R2" button in FCM, I obtain the best R2 using scoops, but not soft clip. I guess the nearest the R2 is from 1 the better the linearity is. Playing a little bit with all the sliders allowed me to raise the final R2 from 0.9875 to 0.9938. But do I have to thrust this and put soft clipping in my mix ? Of course I will test all that stuff on track, but if someone has the response to these questions, it will be great ;-)
Here are my results (profiler overall forces 75%, constant 100%, others 0)
233696
On a PC, it's better to run FCM with the control panel settings you'll be using when playing pCars. On the console, you could guess to leave the constant forces to 75% like the game FFB. Does it translate 1:1. Maybe, maybe not. But in either case, it give you an idea of how your wheel behave and what Scoops does. From there, you can adjusts to what you want to feel.
Soft Clipping is displayed in FCM, but you don't have to use it if you're already dealing with compression and anti-clipping with RAs.
You could use Soft Clipping if you often see the telemetry move quicly without actually feeling the wheel doing it. Soft Clipping somewhat smooth the signal. This means your steering wheel can render those FFB frequency spikes better.
poirqc, as well as you and tennenbaum have tried to explain SoftClipping, I just don't get it. I understand what I m reading, and then i go and input what I think I wanted and the result is totally different. Is there some chance you can make a force graph to explain what Soft and Full elevate? and how do values higher than 1.00 affect it? I ve read your stuff but I still can't get my head around it.
On a PC, it's better to run FCM with the control panel settings you'll be using when playing pCars. On the console, you could guess to leave the constant forces to 75% like the game FFB. Does it translate 1:1. Maybe, maybe not. But in either case, it give you an idea of how your wheel behave and what Scoops does. From there, you can adjusts to what you want to feel.
Soft Clipping is displayed in FCM, but you don't have to use it if you're already dealing with compression and anti-clipping with RAs.
You could use Soft Clipping if you often see the telemetry move quicly without actually feeling the wheel doing it. Soft Clipping somewhat smooth the signal. This means your steering wheel can render those FFB frequency spikes better.
Yes I'm not sure about it being 1:1 on consoles for some reason. I'm using the 75 values at 68 and it seems really good but if I use the 68 fcm test values and 68 ffb it feels similar to my old settings.It works the same with other values also. Not as much feel and cold tires feel horrible. Ive seen people complain about the cold tires before and just assumed it was the way the game was modeled. But its wheel settings not allowing enough difference between high and low forces.
poirqc, as well as you and tennenbaum have tried to explain SoftClipping, I just don't get it. I understand what I m reading, and then i go and input what I think I wanted and the result is totally different. Is there some chance you can make a force graph to explain what Soft and Full elevate? and how do values higher than 1.00 affect it? I ve read your stuff but I still can't get my head around it.
Hum, the best way to see what SCHI and SCFO do is to open FCM by itself, and only move one slider by itself, with the line display checked. It'll be better than having a static graph.
Essentially, Soft Clipping modulate the signal, beside compression between 0 and 1, by boosting the low forces(to an extent) while keeping everything in range. Since the natural curve of SC is the same as your T300, it's probably better to leave it aside.
I could ramble one. It may be better to ask what you want to acheive with it?
Easily, you set SCFO to catch everything, so you don't clip. After you move SCHI around until you get the desired ramp up of forces. After doing so, you may need to play with DRR/DRF if it's too tight around TDC.
Poirqc
Did you look at the t300 graphs? I'm assuming you came to the same conclusion as your g27 that the reason they don't recommend going above a certain value is because the forces ramp up too fast to be useful?
poirqc, as well as you and tennenbaum have tried to explain SoftClipping, I just don't get it. I understand what I m reading, and then i go and input what I think I wanted and the result is totally different. Is there some chance you can make a force graph to explain what Soft and Full elevate? and how do values higher than 1.00 affect it? I ve read your stuff but I still can't get my head around it.
Reading this just now I may have sprayed a bit of my coffee because I've actually begun seeing force curves in everything, it really is a great way to think of ffb.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 15:13
Ok, finally I get it ! I decided to use FF 75 in game (I was running 68 before, but with a small SR=0.20); I set the profiler to overall forces 75%, constant forces 100%, others 0. I took 4 samples for the FCM test. The result is SK 0.83, SR 0.46, DRR 0.09, and it works absolutely perfect on the track ! I can feel everything, even with cold tyres. And once the tyres are in temperature, driving is a HUGE pleasure ! I tried the Ruf, the Formula C, some GT4, on the glenn and barcelona. I had a real blast with the new scoops ! Thanks Mr morpwr to show me the way one more time ;-)
I tried to get a better R2 by using soft clipping, but the results are sometimes weird... I think it's better to let it aside, poircq you're right
Poirqc
Did you look at the t300 graphs? I'm assuming you came to the same conclusion as your g27 that the reason they don't recommend going above a certain value is because the forces ramp up too fast to be useful?
Well, it may be the case for the T300. It's already a strong wheel. The wheel already has a "plateau" at 75%. It's probably about reaching a balance between "wheel clipping" and deadzone width.
On the G27, it doesn't happends the same way. The wheel wheel plateau is really small. Since the wheel is weak, it's better to crank it up to 100%.
Yes I'm not sure about it being 1:1 on consoles for some reason. I'm using the 75 values at 68 and it seems really good but if I use the 68 fcm test values and 68 ffb it feels similar to my old settings.It works the same with other values also. Not as much feel and cold tires feel horrible. Ive seen people complain about the cold tires before and just assumed it was the way the game was modeled. But its wheel settings not allowing enough difference between high and low forces.
Wheel settings were the difference between me being able, esp with the Clio Cup car on cold tires, between a car seeming to be on a sheet of ice or, still not correctly dialed in but better, the sense of a slick road, in trying to get this one car around the track enough to start getting some ffb.
Ok, finally I get it ! I decided to use FF 75 in game (I was running 68 before, but with a small SR=0.20); I set the profiler to overall forces 75%, constant forces 100%, others 0. I took 4 samples for the FCM test. The result is SK 0.83, SR 0.46, DRR 0.09, and it works absolutely perfect on the track ! I can feel everything, even with cold tyres. And once the tyres are in temperature, driving is a HUGE pleasure ! I tried the Ruf, the Formula C, some GT4, on the glenn and barcelona. I had a real blast with the new scoops ! Thanks Mr morpwr to show me the way one more time ;-)
I tried to get a better R2 by using soft clipping, but the results are sometimes weird... I think it's better to let it aside, poircq you're right
So is the difference between the two final end settings of Morpwr ffb 68, spacepadrille 75, but everything else being equal, the power variance in t300 construction/assembly flaws or personal preference? I know for myself the wheel has a very different feel between the two settings.
More importantly is this pointing toward a methodology for finding each wheels proper power profile?
So is the difference between the two final end settings of Morpwr ffb 68, spacepadrille 75, but everything else being equal, the power variance in t300 construction/assembly flaws or personal preference? I know for myself the wheel has a very different feel between the two settings.
More importantly is this pointing toward a methodology for finding each wheels proper power profile?
It's essentially what i tried to do with the sheet in the beginning. I wanted to find a way to get any given FFB wheel to render the signal the best it can. After finding how it can render forces in the widest possible range, you then put whatever you want in that range.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 16:21
@ Atginct : previously, my settings were different of morpwr's ones only concerning the SK and SR. I was running FF 68, but my SR was only 0.20. So my wheel was certainly more weighted than morpwr's one. This is personal preference.
After that, when morpwr came with the new scoops (SK 0.81 and SR 0.48), I tried this and it was good but too light.So I raised FF to 0.75. It was better, but not as good as described by morpwr (the cold tyres good feeling and so..)
Then I decided to do my own FCM test, to see after all WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY WHEEL AND morpwr's ONE.
morpwr's T300 : SK 0.81 - SR 0.48 - DRR 0.10
my T300 : SK 0.83 - SR 0.46 - DRR 0.09
This is wheel to wheel difference, not so huge, but noticable
You say a very different feel between the two settings, can you explain more ?
Strange... I reran WheelCheck with @wheel FF set to 75 and 90 to see if there was a difference in the recommended settings. It came back with Scoop recommendations, 0.64/0.06 with a DRR of 0.07. I thought that was odd, so I reran the test with @ wheel FF=100, and it returned different numbers than it gave me in my previous tests with @wheel FF=100. Before it didn't the regression was 0.9988, and it didn't recommend any Scoops. Now the regression is, 0.9969, and it recommends a Knee with a little Reduction. Anyone got any ideas as to why it's changed?
@ Atginct : previously, my settings were different of morpwr's ones only concerning the SK and SR. I was running FF 68, but my SR was only 0.20. So my wheel was certainly more weighted than morpwr's one. This is personal preference.
After that, when morpwr came with the new scoops (SK 0.81 and SR 0.48), I tried this and it was good but too light.So I raised FF to 0.75. It was better, but not as good as described by morpwr (the cold tyres good feeling and so..)
Then I decided to do my own FCM test, to see after all WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY WHEEL AND morpwr's ONE.
morpwr's T300 : SK 0.81 - SR 0.48 - DRR 0.10
my T300 : SK 0.83 - SR 0.46 - DRR 0.09
This is wheel to wheel difference, not so huge, but noticable
You say a very different feel between the two settings, can you explain more ?
Yes from what I can tell at this point and you obviously saw it too that if you get the scoops set right even a number or two will throw it off. Not necessarily wrong but you will give up something as far as feel goes. You may want to play with drr also I found the same there. One number too high or low and you lose brake and cornering feel. Its worth checking. At this point I think we have gotten all we can out of this.
Strange... I reran WheelCheck with @wheel FF set to 75 and 90 to see if there was a difference in the recommended settings. It came back with Scoop recommendations, 0.64/0.06 with a DRR of 0.07. I thought that was odd, so I reran the test with @ wheel FF=100, and it returned different numbers than it gave me in my previous tests with @wheel FF=100. Before it didn't the regression was 0.9988, and it didn't recommend any Scoops. Now the regression is, 0.9969, and it recommends a Knee with a little Reduction. Anyone got any ideas as to why it's changed?
Cold wheel or hot wheel?
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 17:09
Cold wheel or hot wheel?
that's a smart reflexion !
I gonna run a new test with a hot wheel...
Cold wheel or hot wheel?
Stone cold. I was wondering about that. I think the last time I ran it, the wheel had been in use for a while. I'll try it again after some play.
Thanks!
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 17:15
At this point I think we have gotten all we can out of this.
every unicorn chaser says that several times in a life ;-)
You're right, a simple number more or less and a specific feeling is lost... What DRF did you set finally ? I'm at 0.20, not completely fixed.
If you're going to with grimeys way I think I'd try his suggestions but use my new scoops as they would be correct for your wheel. Not sure about the rab with his settings but I still think I'd try .03 to start.
Just in case anyone else is following along and in a similar situation, with very poor useful feedback from their wheel, this is a very good question to try and answer thoughtfully.
All along it seemed to me that a strong mz(center aligning), hit a curb, jerk the wheel hard, bumps makes the wheel housing vitbrate, overall, to me it seemed this was what the game presented as its force feedback. At some point I thought there just has to be more to it, initially it was car tuning that I thought would dial in the correct ffb feel.
Lots of reading led me to bmanic, Jack Spade and GrimeyDogMethod, again I thought ok well it's still not amazing but it is what it is. It was really only about two to three weeks ago that I actually encountered that mind opening, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Vader-I am your father, revelation that the force(informative ffb) was possible and that it was the norm for many if not most people. In other words, I didn't know what I didn't know. Then all of a sudden one day by accident I changed a setting and got real information to my hands on the wheel of what the road was presenting and how the tires and car were interacting. This was where I made my it was like having salt on French fries for the first time analogy.
I had the sensation and then after shutting the game down and coming back, the wheel was once again pretty uninformative.
So to finally answer your question, I'm not sure yet. I think it was tannenbaum ran the ffb experiment a few weeks back using the various approaches, each offered something that makes sense in theory and at various times I thought this was all making sense to me but until I realized that I can play with in car ffb forever if my wheel settings are not dialed in, the game is like a black and white picture and you didn't know it could be in color. Then it can be as different as a crayon drawing and a painting by Rembrandt with the settings finally being determined. Ok I'm getting carried away but it kinda works as an anology.
If driveclub ffb is little better than a crayon drawing, pcars with the wrong config is still a lead pencil drawing comparatively.
I bet there are a lot of people using the game/sim who are in the same situation, they feel a bunch of forces and equate it with ffb and then there are people with settings that know better.
I worked with a great business consultant who very aptly quantified professional abilities:
Unconscious Incompetence- where you don't know or have any idea really how bad you are
Conscious Incompetence- where you realize you can function at a higher level and desire to be better
Conscious Competance- when you achieve a state of high performance when working at it
Unconscious Competance- the state of high performance through experience and desire
I've found this concept useful through my entire life experience and while pcars is "just a game", the underlying principles remain.
@ Atginct : previously, my settings were different of morpwr's ones only concerning the SK and SR. I was running FF 68, but my SR was only 0.20. So my wheel was certainly more weighted than morpwr's one. This is personal preference.
After that, when morpwr came with the new scoops (SK 0.81 and SR 0.48), I tried this and it was good but too light.So I raised FF to 0.75. It was better, but not as good as described by morpwr (the cold tyres good feeling and so..)
Then I decided to do my own FCM test, to see after all WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY WHEEL AND morpwr's ONE.
morpwr's T300 : SK 0.81 - SR 0.48 - DRR 0.10
my T300 : SK 0.83 - SR 0.46 - DRR 0.09
This is wheel to wheel difference, not so huge, but noticable
You say a very different feel between the two settings, can you explain more ?
Mind you my wheel is not dialed in yet but where Morpwr is working on nuance when talking about the difference between a 75 or a 68 ffb, on my wheel, not properly configured, it was a difference of ice skating and walking. The extra ffb was suddenly blowing up my bad settings to undrivable settings. It's one of the things that helped me realize that the proper config is essential to "useable" feedback.
every unicorn chaser says that several times in a life ;-)
You're right, a simple number more or less and a specific feeling is lost... What DRF did you set finally ? I'm at 0.20, not completely fixed.
To me, you're only chasing the unicorn when you're going back and forth playing with the settings with no real deliberate intent behind the changes. You're just hoping to find that special sauce/something. Lately, however, it seems quite a few people are being a little more specific with their changes--basically, grooming the horse they have and plan to continue riding, instead of chasing the mythical beast. :)
every unicorn chaser says that several times in a life ;-)
You're right, a simple number more or less and a specific feeling is lost... What DRF did you set finally ? I'm at 0.20, not completely fixed.
I think .016 but I'll have to check later. Yes we have heard that many times .lol Difference is this time we know how to use the fcm the correct way.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 18:24
in French, the expression "unicorn chaser" doesn't exist, I maybe misused it, but we have an popular expression for the action of going deeper and deeper in what seems to be only a small "detail", which is "enculer les mouches", that means F**** the fly... that's not easy :-)
in this post, we are all des enculeurs de mouches
To me, you're only chasing the unicorn when you're going back and forth playing with the settings with no real deliberate intent behind the changes. You're just hoping to find that special sauce/something. Lately, however, it seems quite a few people are being a little more specific with their changes--basically, grooming the horse they have and plan to continue riding, instead of chasing the mythical beast. :)
It's hard to keep track at times since I haven't been logical and methodical about it but one day I plugged in spacepadrille's settings two weeks back, that were based on Morpwr settings and found a huge difference in useful feedback. In reflection it's one of the things that helped me realize I needed to go from tweaking cars and car ffb to trying to set up my wheel.
I think .016 but I'll have to check later. Yes we have heard that many times .lol Difference is this time we know how to use the fcm the correct way.
Ok I missed something.
Using fcm the correct way....
Warm wheel
Use thrustmaster utility to set ffb at 75
Use thrustmaster utility to set constant gain at 100
Run fcm at 4 x
Use results from fcm in pcars wheel config screen
Is this the process?
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 18:36
Ok I missed something.
Using fcm the correct way....
Warm wheel
Use thrustmaster utility to set ffb at 75
Use thrustmaster utility to set constant gain at 100
Run fcm at 4 x
Use results from fcm in pcars wheel config screen
Is this the process?
I'm really not an expert of fcm, but yes it seems ok... fcm... what else ? ;-)
It's hard to keep track at times since I haven't been logical and methodical about it but one day I plugged in spacepadrille's settings two weeks back, that were based on Morpwr settings and found a huge difference in useful feedback. In reflection it's one of the things that helped me realize I needed to go from tweaking cars and car ffb to trying to set up my wheel.
The thing with that is you need to decide on how you're going to approach the cars so you can get the wheel set to get the most out of it. Mine are based on jacks approach but going grimeys way they may not be optimal . Same would go for using the default SMS values for the cars.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 18:50
The thing with that is you need to decide on how you're going to approach the cars so you can get the wheel set to get the most out of it. Mine are based on jacks approach but going grimeys way they may not be optimal . Same would go for using the default SMS values for the cars.
True. About Jack's Classic and the "new" settings we have, my first thoughts (before being blasted by the feeling) while experimenting the new scoops on the Ruf (Glen short) was "that's really very good, but maybe too much detailed on the bumps and superficial road feel, so maybe to "spiced", so maybe lower a little bit RAG and raise a little bit RAC ?, or lower a bit the Fz ?". I haven't tried yet, but I always pay attention to the "raw" feeling, the first impression, before your brain is busy with other things...
Using Force Curve Modifier (FCM) for helping to find the basic settings for your wheel.
Follow these steps to save hours of frustration and annoyance.
Use wheel to warm it up.
Attach wheel to computer USB port, make sure you have correct switch setting on the wheel for PC usage.
Check for correct settings in the Thrustmaster Control panel on your computer.
In the startup page make sure direction of rotation is set at default 900.
FFB (Master Gain) is set at 75
Under Detailed Settings
Constant Gain set at 100
ALL OTHERS set to 0 as shown below.
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Make sure direction of rotation matches the setting chosen in the Thrustmaster profiler above (900 is the default)
Run FCM 1.2 exe so it will run 4 force checks (Hint-don't touch wheel as it's running)
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FCM will load it's results.
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Press The FCM calculate button and enter results into the Project Cars Configure Wheel section.
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Once you add a value in the Deadzone Removal section (DRR) you MUST set a Deadzone Removal Falloff value, start with the default setting of .01 DRF. After that, it's a matter of fine tuning how fast you want forces to ramp up on turning. See this excellent post for additional information. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
Go and race like the wind...
Don't thank me I'm just the typist, but do thank these guys as they are responsible for the information compiled above, due to being a crappy typist and compiler I've, without question, left some great fellow players off the list below, my bad.
Project Cars is made better by it's players. This information compiled with the contents and expertise provided by:
poirqc http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?97156-poirqc
tennenbaum http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?96048-tennenbaum
GrimeyDog (of the GrimeyDogMethodTM FFB settings) http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?75101-GrimeyDog
skoader (creator of this utility) http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1240034&viewfull=1#post1240034
morpwr http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?108399-morpwr
Haiden http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?104331-Haiden
Cold wheel or hot wheel?
Turns out, there wasn't much difference. I ran about 16 laps, and then ran WheelCheck again. The results were close to the cold run, but slightly different and definitely more consistent. They're still different from my earlier tests a couple weeks ago, which recommended disabling Scoops. I'm going to assume this latest round of test is more accurate, though, because last time I ran the test with DRI, the curve was bowed below the linearity line, which didn't seem to match what other CSW-v2s were spitting out. I just ran the test again with DRI=3, and this time the curve bows above the linear line, and the recommended Scoop settings are consistent with what other CSW-v2 as getting.
Based on this last round of tests (DRI=Off), it's recommending a Scoops around 0.67/0.07, with a DRR 0.02
Setting up your wheel for dummies...
Nice primer. Linked in the baseline thread.
tennenbaum
29-05-2016, 21:38
Just in case anyone else is following along and in a similar situation, with very poor useful feedback from their wheel, this is a very good question to try and answer thoughtfully.
All along it seemed to me that a strong mz(center aligning), hit a curb, jerk the wheel hard, bumps makes the wheel housing vitbrate, overall, to me it seemed this was what the game presented as its force feedback. At some point I thought there just has to be more to it, initially it was car tuning that I thought would dial in the correct ffb feel.
Lots of reading led me to bmanic, Jack Spade and GrimeyDogMethod™, again I thought ok well it's still not amazing but it is what it is. It was really only about two to three weeks ago that I actually encountered that mind opening, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Vader-I am your father, revelation that the force(informative ffb) was possible and that it was the norm for many if not most people. In other words, I didn't know what I didn't know. Then all of a sudden one day by accident I changed a setting and got real information to my hands on the wheel of what the road was presenting and how the tires and car were interacting. This was where I made my it was like having salt on French fries for the first time analogy.
I had the sensation and then after shutting the game down and coming back, the wheel was once again pretty uninformative.
So to finally answer your question, I'm not sure yet. I think it was tannenbaum ran the ffb experiment a few weeks back using the various approaches, each offered something that makes sense in theory and at various times I thought this was all making sense to me but until I realized that I can play with in car ffb forever if my wheel settings are not dialed in, the game is like a black and white picture and you didn't know it could be in color. Then it can be as different as a crayon drawing and a painting by Rembrandt with the settings finally being determined. Ok I'm getting carried away but it kinda works as an anology.
If driveclub ffb is little better than a crayon drawing, pcars with the wrong config is still a lead pencil drawing comparatively.
I bet there are a lot of people using the game/sim who are in the same situation, they feel a bunch of forces and equate it with ffb and then there are people with settings that know better.
I worked with a great business consultant who very aptly quantified professional abilities:
Unconscious Incompetence- where you don't know or have any idea really how bad you are
Conscious Incompetence- where you realize you can function at a higher level and desire to be better
Conscious Competance- when you achieve a state of high performance when working at it
Unconscious Competance- the state of high performance through experience and desire
I've found this concept useful through my entire life experience and while pcars is "just a game", the underlying principles remain.
i like your conscious / unconcious exerpt.
what i don't get is how it was possible, that you had extraordinary great FFB and then you lost it, and couldn't rebuild it.
no matter which setting i tried and tested, i never had an awakening. everything i could feel through the wheel was in predictable accordance to what the numbers say.
you can only design what you are looking for, when you know for what you are looking for. and then if you got your tools ready, scarve it out ;-)
when you reach the point nothing makes sense any more, turn all forces off - and wonder how fast you still are with a wheel that acts like a pad controller.
than switch of RAC/B/C and SC, dial in force by force step by step...reducing complexity...
Ok I missed something.
Using fcm the correct way....
Warm wheel
Use thrustmaster utility to set ffb at 75
Use thrustmaster utility to set constant gain at 100
Run fcm at 4 x
Use results from fcm in pcars wheel config screen
Is this the process?
Set for dor on wheel and fcm.
i like your conscious / unconcious exerpt.
what i don't get is how it was possible, that you had extraordinary great FFB and then you lost it, and couldn't rebuild it.
no matter which setting i tried and tested, i never had an awakening. everything i could feel through the wheel was in predictable accordance to what the numbers say.
you can only design what you are looking for, when you know for what you are looking for. and then if you got your tools ready, scarve it out ;-)
when you reach the point nothing makes sense any more, turn all forces off - and wonder how fast you still are with a wheel that acts like a pad controller.
than switch of RAC/B/C and SC, dial in force by force step by step...reducing complexity...
I think my phrasing may be off, I was trying to say, I had totally crap settings, had less crappy settings and comparatively they felt JUST SO MUCH BETTER, but in reality were still crap when I started trying to make an active attempt at figuring out the settings. I hope that makes slightly more sense.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 22:03
Set for dor on wheel and fcm.
sorry for my huge ignorance, but what is dor ?
True. About Jack's Classic and the "new" settings we have, my first thoughts (before being blasted by the feeling) while experimenting the new scoops on the Ruf (Glen short) was "that's really very good, but maybe too much detailed on the bumps and superficial road feel, so maybe to "spiced", so maybe lower a little bit RAG and raise a little bit RAC ?, or lower a bit the Fz ?". I haven't tried yet, but I always pay attention to the "raw" feeling, the first impression, before your brain is busy with other things...
I haven't been back to the glen in a bit because I wanted to try cars and tracks I didn't really know. That way I could see if the new settings were actually more informative and easier to pick up on what the cars were doing. I'll have to get back to the glen and see. If you're scoops are a little lower than mine maybe just try raising one or both towards mine. That should take some of that out too.
sorry for my huge ignorance, but what is dor ?
Degrees of rotation. 900 or 1080 in most cases.
Nice primer. Linked in the baseline thread.
Please, you guys did all the work I just pasted some stuff into paint. That process tho does work at providing a starting point for people so someone should make up a start here post for people's reference. It would be great if it included how you come to RAC settings, DRF settings and maybe the alternatives to relative adjusts.
But seriously now, since you all figured out the really hard and confusing stuff, why not move onto some things easier to solve, like the Middle East and world hunger, should be a piece of cake!
Nice primer. Linked in the baseline thread.
Yes.knowing to turn those off is important and many on consoles may not realize that.
Please, you guys did all the work I just pasted some stuff into paint. That process tho does work at providing a starting point for people so someone should make up a start here post for people's reference. It would be great if it included how you come to RAC settings, DRF settings and maybe the alternatives to relative adjusts.
But seriously now, since you all figured out the really hard and confusing stuff, why not move onto some things easier to solve, like the Middle East and world hunger, should be a piece of cake!
We all contribute here now its your turn.:D
sorry for my huge ignorance, but what is dor ?
I'm away from my pc ATM, is there a setting for DOR in it?
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 22:16
Degrees of rotation. 900 or 1080 in most cases.
yes. thanks. And everybody agrees that for the T300RS on PS4 we have to choose 900 ?
One night, after playing Dirt Rally, I jumped to Pcars. The FFB was different, and not so bad at all ! When I tried to calibrate the wheel on PCars, I saw it was set to 1080 instead of the usual 900 (Dirt Calibration).
tennenbaum
29-05-2016, 22:17
poirqc, as well as you and tennenbaum have tried to explain SoftClipping, I just don't get it. I understand what I m reading, and then i go and input what I think I wanted and the result is totally different. Is there some chance you can make a force graph to explain what Soft and Full elevate? and how do values higher than 1.00 affect it? I ve read your stuff but I still can't get my head around it.
SC is really a beast. imo the only way to finally understand how SCHI and SCFO really works is to stare a long time at skoaders graphs until comprehension fades in ;-) the official FFB guide and the in game description is misleading. but even when you start to get a clue what SC does, in combination with the "invisible headroom" and RAC it is complex. JS did a interesting test recently with SC compared to settings without SC. Personally i think it so complicated, that i'd rather try skoaders setting, but don't ask why it's working...
I'm away from my pc ATM, is there a setting for DOR in it?
Yes if I remember right its on the first page when you open the thrust master profiler and fcm calls it wheel rotation with degrees in parentheses. should be 1080 for us normally with t300s.
We all contribute here now its your turn.:D
I'm more that happy to contribute but you guys did the work, I'd rather not ever have anyone think wow that ATG character really helped me get it all working. Yes I'm a character but def not helpful.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 22:23
Yes if I remember right its on the first page when you open the thrust master profiler and fcm calls it wheel rotation with degrees in parentheses. should be 1080 for us normally with t300s.
Agree that the T300 is a 1080 wheel, but in PCARS we always use 900, no ? So which one to run the FCM ?
Yes if I remember right its on the first page when you open the thrust master profiler and fcm calls it wheel rotation with degrees in parentheses. should be 1080 for us normally with t300s.
Ok I'll check that out in a bit and make a notation because I'll have to run it again because the default in the thrustmaster control panel is 960 I think.
Agree that the T300 is a 1080 wheel, but in PCARS we always use 900, no ? So which one to run the FCM ?
I always thought it used 1080 and the game did it from there. So unless I'm wrong I'd use 1080 for the fcm.
Ok I'll check that out in a bit and make a notation because I'll have to run it again because the default in the thrustmaster control panel is 960 I think.
Default is definitely 900.
Agree that the T300 is a 1080 wheel, but in PCARS we always use 900, no ? So which one to run the FCM ?
Ok I'll check that out in a bit and make a notation because I'll have to run it again because the default in the thrustmaster control panel is 960 I think.
Well, if you run 900° on the PS4, set it to 900° in the windows CP, Or wathever value you calibrate the wheel to.
I'm more that happy to contribute but you guys did the work, I'd rather not ever have anyone think wow that ATG character really helped me get it all working. Yes I'm a character but def not helpful.
Any help is good help!
tennenbaum
29-05-2016, 22:36
sorry for my huge ignorance, but what is dor ?
degrees of rotation. i asked the same question just recently too ;-) the abreviations are awful...
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 22:44
Question about the DOR ;-)
If when I calibrate my wheel in PCars I go in the second step more than 90° and validate when I see 1080, my wheel is calibrated as 1080 ? Or there is an other way ? Or we keep 900 and that's all...
[QUOTE=poirqc;1282901]Well, if you run 900° on the PS4, set it to 900° in the windows CP, Or wathever value you calibrate the wheel to.
From my reading the console default rotation in the in car view is programmed to match a wheel setting at 900, we can change our own wheels to whatever but the viewed, on the screen wheel is still gonna do the 900 rotation thingy (using scientific terminology so people think I'm a smarty pants)
But yes I'll def make note on the fcm primer, think of anything else you want added just start your comment with fcm primer or message me, I prefer things not being thrown to get my attention cus I suck at that game and usually duck in the wrong direction.
Question about the DOR ;-)
If when I calibrate my wheel in PCars I go in the second step more than 90° and validate when I see 1080, my wheel is calibrated as 1080 ? Or there is an other way ? Or we keep 900 and that's all...
You have to set rotation on your wheel itself, dpad left and press the mode button once, 4 blinks is 900.
From the link below......
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http://ts.thrustmaster.com/faqs/eng/thr_eng_00155.pdf
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 22:58
You have to set rotation on your wheel itself, dpad left and press the mode button once, 4 blinks is 900.
Yes ! Thanks ! I know it for DiRT, but have to ask for PCars... minds are strange things ;-)
Question about the DOR ;-)
If when I calibrate my wheel in PCars I go in the second step more than 90° and validate when I see 1080, my wheel is calibrated as 1080 ? Or there is an other way ? Or we keep 900 and that's all...
As far as I know yes. That's why I said its 1080 because that's what it shows when you calibrate it. The game just adjusts it for you to whatever the car uses from what I understood.
As far as I know yes. That's why I said its 1080 because that's what it shows when you calibrate it. The game just adjusts it for you to whatever the car uses from what I understood.
I think I'm not correctly following this conversation so I apologize for jumping in, just now I set my wheel for 1080 and then went into the calibrate wheel window and it was crap, def didn't match actual rotation in either screen, but it sure gave weird settings.
spacepadrille
29-05-2016, 23:34
900° vs 1080° FCM test
The R2 is better for the 1080°. But there is a big "stair" in the curve. The 900° seems more regular and smooth. The 900° is really good to drive, now I try the 1080°
The scoop values are quite different also...
900° : SK 0.83 - SR 0.46
1080°: SK 0.81 - SR 0.47 (very close to morpwr's FCM result)
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EDIT : just did it again, the "stair" in the 1080° curve disappeared, the R2 is better, but the SK and SR values are different from previous test.... everything is a long way ;-)
GrimeyDog
29-05-2016, 23:49
Just in case anyone else is following along and in a similar situation, with very poor useful feedback from their wheel, this is a very good question to try and answer thoughtfully.
All along it seemed to me that a strong mz(center aligning), hit a curb, jerk the wheel hard, bumps makes the wheel housing vitbrate, overall, to me it seemed this was what the game presented as its force feedback. At some point I thought there just has to be more to it, initially it was car tuning that I thought would dial in the correct ffb feel.
Lots of reading led me to bmanic, Jack Spade and GrimeyDogMethod, again I thought ok well it's still not amazing but it is what it is. It was really only about two to three weeks ago that I actually encountered that mind opening, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Vader-I am your father, revelation that the force(informative ffb) was possible and that it was the norm for many if not most people. In other words, I didn't know what I didn't know. Then all of a sudden one day by accident I changed a setting and got real information to my hands on the wheel of what the road was presenting and how the tires and car were interacting. This was where I made my it was like having salt on French fries for the first time analogy.
I had the sensation and then after shutting the game down and coming back, the wheel was once again pretty uninformative.
So to finally answer your question, I'm not sure yet. I think it was tannenbaum ran the ffb experiment a few weeks back using the various approaches, each offered something that makes sense in theory and at various times I thought this was all making sense to me but until I realized that I can play with in car ffb forever if my wheel settings are not dialed in, the game is like a black and white picture and you didn't know it could be in color. Then it can be as different as a crayon drawing and a painting by Rembrandt with the settings finally being determined. Ok I'm getting carried away but it kinda works as an anology.
If driveclub ffb is little better than a crayon drawing, pcars with the wrong config is still a lead pencil drawing comparatively.
I bet there are a lot of people using the game/sim who are in the same situation, they feel a bunch of forces and equate it with ffb and then there are people with settings that know better.
I worked with a great business consultant who very aptly quantified professional abilities:
Unconscious Incompetence- where you don't know or have any idea really how bad you are
Conscious Incompetence- where you realize you can function at a higher level and desire to be better
Conscious Competance- when you achieve a state of high performance when working at it
Unconscious Competance- the state of high performance through experience and desire
I've found this concept useful through my entire life experience and while pcars is "just a game", the underlying principles remain.
i like your conscious / unconcious exerpt.
what i don't get is how it was possible, that you had extraordinary great FFB and then you lost it, and couldn't rebuild it.
no matter which setting i tried and tested, i never had an awakening. everything i could feel through the wheel was in predictable accordance to what the numbers say.
you can only design what you are looking for, when you know for what you are looking for. and then if you got your tools ready, scarve it out ;-)
when you reach the point nothing makes sense any more, turn all forces off - and wonder how fast you still are with a wheel that acts like a pad controller.
than switch of RAC/B/C and SC, dial in force by force step by step...reducing complexity...
Hmmmm Im wondering if he had the FFB Glitch that turned on the canned FFB Effects???... It seems to be the only thing that makes sense at this point.
If I were you what i would do is to reset the Global settings (Green Triangle in settings screen) Then i would start fresh with the Global settings you like most from whom ever or even your own that you know work...pick your favorite car and Track, reset the in car FFB settings and re input your settings fresh and test... you may have corrupt data some where in the car settings or global if they didnt save right when you changed stuff...rule of thumb always try to wait for the save data icon to go off before you exit or load a track... some times we push buttons faster than the game moves... i had to learn to wait i realized that that was causing My game data to Not save right.
@ skoader
I did your rescaling experiment - TF * 2 = 150, SC Half = 10.0, SC Full = 2.0
Indeed thereīs no saturation -> with the red marked values.
TF = 75 / 150
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 1.50
RA Bleed = 0.10
RA Clamp = 0.85 / 200
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0 / 10.0
SC Full = 0 / 2.0
PWM = 0.00 / -0.05
PWMS = 0.00 / 0.03
Steering Gain = 105 / 100
Note, RA Clamp set at 200 to avoid a second re scaling process.
In A/B comparison settings do not feel 100% identical but close. Would it be an audio A/B comparison I would
say thereīs a thin curtain in front of the red marked. Itīs something you donīt really notice on the waveform
on the monitor as everything seems to be there but some detail is missing.
Nice one Jack.
I'm not exactly sure why you experienced a minor loss in detail. Aside from the slightly non-linear curve produced by Soft Clip with those settings, results should be near identical. SC isn't dynamic like RA and doesn't perform any smoothing. The only thing I could see (and I'm being speculative here) is that lifting the RA clamp all the way to 2.0 instead of doubling it reduced just a little bit of 'spice' that RA induced with your original settings. I see you also changed PWM and SG. Could be something there too but again, I'm only speculating. For a true A/B comparison I'd be inclined to keep all those settings exactly the same.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to run the test and not just writing me off as a mad man. :)
Great stuff!
I think I'm not correctly following this conversation so I apologize for jumping in, just now I set my wheel for 1080 and then went into the calibrate wheel window and it was crap, def didn't match actual rotation in either screen, but it sure gave weird settings.
If I'm not mistaken you don't have to do anything on the wheel because the game sets it to 1080 in the calibration screen in game.I've never touched my wheel to change that. The link you posted from thrust master on changing dor stated some games like gt you don't need to do anything because the game overrides it which is how I understood pcars worked. That way the game automatically sets dor depending on the car you're driving.
spacepadrille
30-05-2016, 00:45
If I'm not mistaken you don't have to do anything on the wheel because the game sets it to 1080 in the calibration screen in game.I've never touched my wheel to change that. The link you posted from thrust master on changing dor stated some games like gt you don't need to do anything because the game overrides it which is how I understood pcars worked. That way the game automatically sets dor depending on the car you're driving.
morpwr you're right, except that the game sets it to 900° in the calibration screen. If I want 1080, I have to do MODE + Paddle and choose 5 blinks
morpwr you're right, except that the game sets it to 900° in the calibration screen. If I want 1080, I have to do MODE + Paddle and choose 5 blinks
Isn't it 900 degrees each direction which would be 1080 total?
Isn't it 900 degrees each direction which would be 1080 total?I'll have to check but I'm almost positive its 1080 because Xbox only gets 900 even though the base is technically the same.
spacepadrille
30-05-2016, 01:04
Isn't it 900 degrees each direction which would be 1080 total?
900 x 2 = 1800, not 1080
I'm pretty sure the game put the wheel to 900° when you start it. The exception occurs when the wheel had just been calibrated (DiRt for example) to 1080° and then without restarting the PS4 you launch PCARS.
I tried to get a better R2 by using soft clipping, but the results are sometimes weird...
Did you use the SC Half 7.3 & SC Full 2.3 from the image you posted earlier? If so, I bet the wheel was weak, dull and forces never got close to the extents in the telemetry.
The first thing to get right with SC is the Full output setting and you can't really do this from FCM. If using Soft Clip purely as a signal shaping tool rather than anti-clipping you want the Full Output setting to match the maximum force that is coming out of Relative Adjust. If you've never used SC before and have your TF, Master Scales etc nicely dialled in so that you don't experience much clipping then you'll likely want SC Full set to 1.0.
With that set correctly in FCM, you can then use the half input setting to adjust the shape of the curve to your liking. This should give you better results.
900 x 2 = 1800, not 1080
I'm pretty sure the game put the wheel to 900° when you start it. The exception occurs when the wheel had just been calibrated (DiRt for example) to 1080° and then without restarting the PS4 you launch PCARS.
Sorry been a long weekend. Had death in the family and a wake today.yes that would not be 1080. Had a brain spasm there lol
spacepadrille
30-05-2016, 01:16
Did you use the SC Half 7.3 & SC Full 2.3 from the image you posted earlier? If so, I bet the wheel was weak, dull and forces never got close to the extents in the telemetry.
The first thing to get right with SC is the Full output setting and you can't really do this from FCM. If using Soft Clip purely as a signal shaping tool rather than anti-clipping you want the Full Output setting to match the maximum force that is coming out of Relative Adjust. If you've never used SC before and have your TF, Master Scales etc nicely dialled in so that you don't experience much clipping then you'll likely want SC Full set to 1.0.
With that set correctly in FCM, you can then use the half input setting to adjust the shape of the curve to your liking. This should give you better results.
Hi Skoader, yes I tried this SC Half 7.3 SC F 2.3and it was like you said ;-) I tried also others "combos" and some were nice.
I was trying to reshape the curve and found many ways with SC to put for example the middle of the curve exactly at 50/50 values on the both axes. Centering the curve after linearization... Thanks for your advice, I will try that way. I'm more than happy with my settings, but it's a pleasure to learn slowly how all that works
GrimeyDog
30-05-2016, 01:24
Did you use the SC Half 7.3 & SC Full 2.3 from the image you posted earlier? If so, I bet the wheel was weak, dull and forces never got close to the extents in the telemetry.
The first thing to get right with SC is the Full output setting and you can't really do this from FCM. If using Soft Clip purely as a signal shaping tool rather than anti-clipping you want the Full Output setting to match the maximum force that is coming out of Relative Adjust. If you've never used SC before and have your TF, Master Scales etc nicely dialled in so that you don't experience much clipping then you'll likely want SC Full set to 1.0.
With that set correctly in FCM, you can then use the half input setting to adjust the shape of the curve to your liking. This should give you better results.
Hmmm interesting... what would you recommend the soft clip setting be set at for my settings... TF/RAC 75 car masters 100, Fx 10,Fy 30, Fz 60, Mz 30, SOP lat 10, SoP dif 60.
I will try the soft clip but i don't even know where to begin with Sc settings...What would you recommend based on my settings??? My full settings are posted on first page in PDF.
I'm Not going back in the FFB rabbit hole just yet...Taking a tweeker break so i can master and later maximize my current settings based on a term of testing and observation as they are to asses if i can further hone them to bring out better feel.
gotdirt410sprintcar
30-05-2016, 01:31
Can you use a laptop to run the test windows 10?
Can you use a laptop to run the test windows 10?
Yes that's how I do mine.
Can you use a laptop to run the test windows 10?
That's how I've been running it. Works fine. But I have a CSW-v2, so I run Wheel Check first, then import the results into FCM.
Jack Spade
30-05-2016, 07:31
Nice one Jack.
I'm not exactly sure why you experienced a minor loss in detail. Aside from the slightly non-linear curve produced by Soft Clip with those settings, results should be near identical. SC isn't dynamic like RA and doesn't perform any smoothing. The only thing I could see (and I'm being speculative here) is that lifting the RA clamp all the way to 2.0 instead of doubling it reduced just a little bit of 'spice' that RA induced with your original settings. I see you also changed PWM and SG. Could be something there too but again, I'm only speculating. For a true A/B comparison I'd be inclined to keep all those settings exactly the same.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to run the test and not just writing me off as a mad man. :)
Great stuff!
I did not change PWM just forgot to delete the alternative CSW v2 setting, since a FFB discussion with Andrew Weber Iīm using PWM instead of Dri=3.
Concerning SG, as you mentioned the SC curve is slightly non linear and so is the SG curve at 105, hopefully they are on par this way somehow cause
I wanted a fair A/B comparison.
In a sound engineerīs world A/B comparisons are daily business and I have learned comparisons should be instantly or within a small time frame at least
to be objective, especially if differences are very small, recalling stuff from memory after a while is not reliable and sometimes playing tricks on you (placebo).
Unfortunately here in this case itīs recalling memory so Iīm going to repeat this test again and let you know the outcome.
Jack Spade
30-05-2016, 13:49
@ skoader
Repeated the A/B comparison, no Relative stuff in between and SG fixed at 1.0 in contrast to yesterday.
red = re scaling.
TF = 75 / 150
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 0.0
RA Bleed = 0.0
RA Clamp = 0.0
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0 / 10.0
SC Full = 0 / 2.0
PWM = -0.05
PWMS = 0.03
Steering Gain = 1.0
This time I checked it a few times with different cars and must admit I could not make out much of a
difference, if any. Yesterday I seemed to have noticed a small loss of detail with the re scaled setting
but today I can not confirm this anymore, to make sure I repeated the whole thing with yesterdayīs
settings (+RA & SG) and again to my surprise no difference.
Concerning this kind of A/B comparisons, there are numerous variables driving around a track, finding out
what matches or doesnīt to your previous snapshots often is prone to misjudgments, as in this case
differences are seemingly minor although settings major.
900 x 2 = 1800, not 1080
I'm pretty sure the game put the wheel to 900° when you start it. The exception occurs when the wheel had just been calibrated (DiRt for example) to 1080° and then without restarting the PS4 you launch PCARS.
Yep 900. I had check last night before I went to bed. I reran all the fcm test also 75 was exactly the same but some slight differences in 100 and 68. I tried the calculated fcm values for 68 as is and while they could be good Id agree with you really strong and they seem just off balance wise. You notice it more when getting a car sideways you get that super heavy feeling again and the tires feel off.
GrimeyDog
30-05-2016, 14:31
@ skoader
Repeated the A/B comparison, no Relative stuff in between and SG fixed at 1.0 in contrast to yesterday.
red = re scaling.
TF = 75 / 150
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 0.0
RA Bleed = 0.0
RA Clamp = 0.0
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0 / 10.0
SC Full = 0 / 2.0
PWM = -0.05
PWMS = 0.03
Steering Gain = 1.0
This time I checked it a few times with different cars and must admit I could not make out much of a
difference, if any. Yesterday I seemed to have noticed a small loss of detail with the re scaled setting
but today I can not confirm this anymore, to make sure I repeated the whole thing with yesterdayīs
settings (+RA & SG) and again to my surprise no difference.
Concerning this kind of A/B comparisons, there are numerous variables driving around a track, finding out
what matches or doesnīt to your previous snapshots often is prone to misjudgments, as in this case
differences are seemingly minor although settings major.
WOW!!! Pcars FFB system gets even more diverse as a New way of using it Now comes to Light:applause:
It seems that the FFB system is Limited or Expanded by the Mindset of the person thats tweeking with it...
Well Done Skoader Strikes again:yes: Very innovative and Creative use of the FFB system!!! Thats a route i had Not even thought about let alone explored.
inthebagbud
30-05-2016, 15:34
Video input for the thread, on the xbox - there is a slight amount of clipping so probably needs RA knocking down a few notches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK68X7x0JqI
RobboCod
30-05-2016, 19:30
Setting up your wheel for dummies.
Use wheel to warm it up.
Check for correct settings in the Thrustmaster Control panel on your computer.
233724
Run FCM 1.2 exe so it will run 4 force checks
233729
FCM will load it's results.
233727
Press The FCM calculate button and enter results into the Project Cars Configure Wheel section.
233728
Go and race like the wind...
Is the FFB on the control panel put to 75% when using the fcm only? Also where can I get the FCM tool? I feel I want to check if my wheel is as optimal as possible. I presume I don't need pcars on PC to use the fcm? Sorry for sounding thick.
inthebagbud
30-05-2016, 19:34
. Also, to get close to a linear rescaling back down with Soft Clip, use SC Half = 10.0, SC Full = 2.0.
Ok does anybody know where skoader hangs out , he cant just walk in here, open door, throw in grenade and just walk away :D
I just finished resetting wheel after return from manufacturer and posted the ffb results in post above this, then I come across this little statement - and then seeing JS test I plugged in the settings and wtf.
I use Oulton and the RUF as my ffb test and consider if I achieve a high 1.34 or better the ffb has improved - I usually start in the 1.35's and give myself 4 laps as a test to improve my time or disprove the FFB.
I have never really been happy with RA or Scoops so I plug Soft Clip in and hell I am lapping in the 1.34 from the off and set a 1.33.942 - a full god dam second improvement. So to check I went back to my original settings and couldn't get below 1.34.8, so back to no RA/Scoop and I set a 1.34.118, without really trying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEjj9r1bhs
many thanks skoader:applause:
tennenbaum
30-05-2016, 20:03
Ok does anybody know where skoader hangs out , he cant just walk in here, open door, throw in grenade and just walk away :D
I just finished resetting wheel after return from manufacturer and posted the ffb results in post above this, then I come across this little statement - and then seeing JS test I plugged in the settings and wtf.
I use Oulton and the RUF as my ffb test and consider if I achieve a high 1.34 or better the ffb has improved - I usually start in the 1.35's and give myself 4 laps as a test to improve my time or disprove the FFB.
I have never really been happy with RA or Scoops so I plug Soft Clip in and hell I am lapping in the 1.34 from the off and set a 1.33.942 - a full god dam second improvement. So to check I went back to my original settings and couldn't get below 1.34.8, so back to no RA/Scoop and I set a 1.34.118, without really trying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEjj9r1bhs
many thanks skoader:applause:
ha, i wonder how long it takes until more people realize that skoader did something very special... it's based on the fact that tireforces can go high up without clipping ("invisible headroom") before getting funneled with RAC and SC. it was proven already in January... and i wondered why it did't stir any echoes at that time. skoaders setting is the ultimate prove that the math stated by some guys here is and was rock solid to the bones, since months. if you read inbetween the lines of many many mails here in this thread you realise it was "in the air" to be eventually confirmed. JS contributed a great part to it by confirming skoaders approach...! however, great that you recognized that this was the biggest step forward since quite a while. poirqc knew ;-) "...skoader striked again!"
his setting makes me want to sit behind the wheel again...
Is the FFB on the control panel put to 75% when using the fcm only? Also where can I get the FCM tool? I feel I want to check if my wheel is as optimal as possible. I presume I don't need pcars on PC to use the fcm? Sorry for sounding thick.
Setting at 75% is what was recommended either by Thrustmaster or ops here on the PCars forum, mind you I'm not sure it matters except for uniformity in troubleshooting and having a place to start.
I don't have the link handy but Thrustmaster Tech Support did post here that you should not set the PCars FFB setting over 75. AND YES I'll link to FCM in the post....
FCM 1.2 here and additional info
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
I don't believe we have ever gotten feedback on console function from the programming folks.
tennenbaum
30-05-2016, 20:58
WOW!!! Pcars FFB system gets even more diverse as a New way of using it Now comes to Light:applause:
It seems that the FFB system is Limited or Expanded by the Mindset of the person thats tweeking with it...
Well Done Skoader Strikes again:yes: Very innovative and Creative use of the FFB system!!! Thats a route i had Not even thought about let alone explored.
"...expanded or limited by the mindset of the person who is tweaking it..." Grimey you should go for senator's election in your state ;-) ;-) :-) you got a vote already, mine :D
gotdirt410sprintcar
30-05-2016, 21:28
Well I need help on how to get the force curve modifier to work I have some logs just don't now how to put it in place someone needs to make a youtube vid for dummies
RobboCod
30-05-2016, 21:38
Setting at 75% is what was recommended either by Thrustmaster or ops here on the PCars forum, mind you I'm not sure it matters except for uniformity in troubleshooting and having a place to start.
I don't have the link handy but Thrustmaster Tech Support did post here that you should not set the PCars FFB setting over 75. AND YES I'll link to FCM in the post....
FCM 1.2 here and additional info
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
I don't believe we have ever gotten feedback on console function from the programming folks.
Many thanks. I have it in my head that the 75 ffb recommendation was for within pcars only, and the control panel setting could be set at 100%. I'll have to plug my wheel in and check what it's set at. So if it is at 100 in the control panel and I knock it down. Should I expect very noticeable ffb change? It feels pretty damn good right now is all.
Well I need help on how to get the force curve modifier to work I have some logs just don't now how to put it in place someone needs to make a youtube vid for dummies
I don't have a youtube video, but i wrote the following the the baseline thread.
FCM usage:
Wheelcheck import:
Open FCM
Go into File --> Import --> go to your folder "Documents"
Select the .csv results wheelcheck generated. (You can import multiple files at once.)
Push the "Calculate Best R2 values" button.
Or This (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1282826&viewfull=1#post1282826) Atginct did a nice primer.
Many thanks. I have it in my head that the 75 ffb recommendation was for within pcars only, and the control panel setting could be set at 100%. I'll have to plug my wheel in and check what it's set at. So if it is at 100 in the control panel and I knock it down. Should I expect very noticeable ffb change? It feels pretty damn good right now is all.
If it feel damn good, i wouldn't touch anything! :D
On a more serious note, you set the control panel the same way you set your in game ffb.
Summer + Beer + BBQ = goodness :cool:
I don't have a youtube video, but i wrote the following the the baseline thread.
FCM usage:
Wheelcheck import:
Open FCM
Go into File --> Import --> go to your folder "Documents"
Select the .csv results wheelcheck generated. (You can import multiple files at once.)
Push the "Calculate Best R2 values" button.
Or This (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1282826&viewfull=1#post1282826) Atginct did a nice primer.
If it feel damn good, i wouldn't touch anything! :D
On a more serious note, you set the control panel the same way you set your in game ffb.
Summer + Beer + BBQ = goodness :cool:
I just updated the primer, please check for clarity and let me know it's good to go or needs edits.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1282826&viewfull=1#post1282826
RobboCod
30-05-2016, 22:39
I don't have a youtube video, but i wrote the following the the baseline thread.
FCM usage:
Wheelcheck import:
Open FCM
Go into File --> Import --> go to your folder "Documents"
Select the .csv results wheelcheck generated. (You can import multiple files at once.)
Push the "Calculate Best R2 values" button.
Or This (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1282826&viewfull=1#post1282826) Atginct did a nice primer.
If it feel damn good, i wouldn't touch anything! :D
On a more serious note, you set the control panel the same way you set your in game ffb.
Summer + Beer + BBQ = goodness :cool:
You're right of course, but my curiosity is piqued. :p
I'm not going to start tinkering much this late in the game, however. I'm happy with morpwr's settings as they are the best I've found so far for me. I just like to know everything is as it should be if you get me. So essentially the control panel ffb will be 75, then in game ffb master will be as I like it with using morpwr's settings and Jack's classic per car?
GrimeyDog
30-05-2016, 22:44
"...expanded or limited by the mindset of the person who is tweaking it..." Grimey you should go for senator's election in your state ;-) ;-) :-) you got a vote already, mine :D
LOL...:victorious:....
Only now 1 year later is the true Diversity of the FFB System Fully being realized and explored:yes: its really making me wonder and want to jump back in and capture the unicorn in as many ways possible... I'm on a tweeker break so Nope not going back in Now that i have My formula perfected:p But I wonder how many more ways the system can really be used???
GrimeyDog
30-05-2016, 23:20
https://youtu.be/iYoXH4BNo9M?t=2408
Check this out!!! sim Vibe and Sim commander working with Pcars on PS4 and XB1 Beta... Works through UDP and PC!!!
Hmmm interesting... what would you recommend the soft clip setting be set at for my settings... TF/RAC 75 car masters 100, Fx 10,Fy 30, Fz 60, Mz 30, SOP lat 10, SoP dif 60.
I will try the soft clip but i don't even know where to begin with Sc settings...What would you recommend based on my settings??? My full settings are posted on first page in PDF.
I'm Not going back in the FFB rabbit hole just yet...Taking a tweeker break so i can master and later maximize my current settings based on a term of testing and observation as they are to asses if i can further hone them to bring out better feel.
Even though your tire forces are stronger than most, RA is clamping most of them off. You could lift your ceiling just a little with Full Output at 1.1 or 1.2 which will give you more room for some of those mighty spikes that your settings can generate. This might appear to cost you a little bit of weight but you'll get that back with the right Half Input setting. This is going to be about tuning by feel (which is right in your wheelhouse) but I'd be thinking anywhere between 4.0 - 9.0. Lower numbers here will give a larger boost to low-mid level forces which might be interpreted as more weight. Go too low though and you'll start paying for it by losing definition at the other end of the scale, so you'll need to find that balance.
You're right of course, but my curiosity is piqued. :p
I'm not going to start tinkering much this late in the game, however. I'm happy with morpwr's settings as they are the best I've found so far for me. I just like to know everything is as it should be if you get me. So essentially the control panel ffb will be 75, then in game ffb master will be as I like it with using morpwr's settings and Jack's classic per car?
If you want to have an idea of how the wheel is working, you could use put the game FFB setting you setle to back into the windows control panel. You run the test again. It should get close to what you're using on the PS4.
One user, Nickpicker(not sure), said FFB settings don't translate 1:1 from Xbox to PC. I wonder it it's the case PS4 to PC.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 00:16
Even though your tire forces are stronger than most, RA is clamping most of them off. You could lift your ceiling just a little with Full Output at 1.1 or 1.2 which will give you more room for some of those mighty spikes that your settings can generate. This might appear to cost you a little bit of weight but you'll get that back with the right Half Input setting. This is going to be about tuning by feel (which is right in your wheelhouse) but I'd be thinking anywhere between 4.0 - 9.0. Lower numbers here will give a larger boost to low-mid level forces which might be interpreted as more weight. Go too low though and you'll start paying for it by losing definition at the other end of the scale, so you'll need to find that balance.
Thanks for the input... I will definitely look into this:victorious:
I just updated the primer, please check for clarity and let me know it's good to go or needs edits.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1282826&viewfull=1#post1282826
I took the following from the update:
Once you add a value in the Deadzone Removal section (DRR) you MUST set Deadzone Removal Falloff Value, start with a setting of 2X the DRR value adjust for feel as outlined http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...-FCM-Universal
You can't really enter a DRF 2x DRR. it would mean(ex):
DRR 0,1
DRF 0,2
... and so on.
Long ago, when Steering Gain went through the roof, between patch 1.x and 3, where SG was hidden, I suggested high DRF values. People were getting heavy oscillation around TDC. Since templates are alot more balanced nowaday, default DRF(0,01) can even be a good starting point, regardless of DRR. Even with a big DRR value, DRF around 0,01 works great.
After that, it's a matter of fine tuning how fast you want forces to ramp up on turning.
I should update that section since it's mostly talking about the sheet and not FCM. The same apply to both calculator.
RobboCod
31-05-2016, 06:05
If you want to have an idea of how the wheel is working, you could use put the game FFB setting you setle to back into the windows control panel. You run the test again. It should get close to what you're using on the PS4.
One user, Nickpicker(not sure), said FFB settings don't translate 1:1 from Xbox to PC. I wonder it it's the case PS4 to PC.
I'm with you. Thanks for that, I know what I'm doing after work now. I'll see how I get on. The advice on this forum is priceless.
Many thanks. I have it in my head that the 75 ffb recommendation was for within pcars only, and the control panel setting could be set at 100%. I'll have to plug my wheel in and check what it's set at. So if it is at 100 in the control panel and I knock it down. Should I expect very noticeable ffb change? It feels pretty damn good right now is all.
Both of these sliders should be doing the same thing to your wheel curve.
Jack Spade
31-05-2016, 08:23
ha, i wonder how long it takes until more people realize that skoader did something very special... it's based on the fact that tireforces can go high up without clipping ("invisible headroom") before getting funneled with RAC and SC. it was proven already in January... and i wondered why it did't stir any echoes at that time. skoaders setting is the ultimate prove that the math stated by some guys here is and was rock solid to the bones, since months. if you read inbetween the lines of many many mails here in this thread you realise it was "in the air" to be eventually confirmed. JS contributed a great part to it by confirming skoaders approach...! however, great that you recognized that this was the biggest step forward since quite a while. poirqc knew ;-) "...skoader striked again!"
his setting makes me want to sit behind the wheel again...
I donīt wanna spoil the party here but re scaling for the sake of re scaling doesnīt gain anything, itīs like filling up a cup of coffee right up to the edge and in order to
avoid spilling over when moving around the house with it you pour out some instead of leaving a bit of space in the first place. I have developed the tweaker files
without any of the processing stuff active. Compression, limiting, spicing up or re scaling at this early stage would have distorted the results, you probably have
noticed all car settings work with an appropriate TF level without all this stuff. I would not advice a newcomer who is starting here from scratch to set up a complicated
compression re scaling line first before any of the core FFB is ready. Yes, skoaderīs theory is proven to to true and itīs really possible to create much more than just
re scaling. BTW in context with my test I found 2 or 3 different TF, RA and SC combinations that felt similar and even stronger to my usual global setting as reference,
but up to now never worthwhile for changing. IMO Soft Clip compression is a useful tool to help low tier type of wheels building up some force though dynamic gets
narrowed, a CSW v2 or DD wheels donīt need it.
You're right of course, but my curiosity is piqued. :p
I'm not going to start tinkering much this late in the game, however. I'm happy with morpwr's settings as they are the best I've found so far for me. I just like to know everything is as it should be if you get me. So essentially the control panel ffb will be 75, then in game ffb master will be as I like it with using morpwr's settings and Jack's classic per car?
Exactly. The control panel is only used for pc and fcm testing.
https://youtu.be/iYoXH4BNo9M?t=2408
Check this out!!! sim Vibe and Sim commander working with Pcars on PS4 and XB1 Beta... Works through UDP and PC!!!
You knew more of that had to be coming for consoles once they opened that up. There are to many console racers to ignore that from a business standpoint.
You knew more of that had to be coming for consoles once they opened that up. There are to many console racers to ignore that from a business standpoint.
You still need a PC to run the software, though. I guess I could see using it to run SimVibe for the Buttkickers. You probably don't need a beefy PC for that. But if you've spent the money on a motion rig, why wouldn't you just buy a decent gaming rig to drive the game? That part doesn't make sense to me.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 11:15
ha, i wonder how long it takes until more people realize that skoader did something very special... it's based on the fact that tireforces can go high up without clipping ("invisible headroom") before getting funneled with RAC and SC. it was proven already in January... and i wondered why it did't stir any echoes at that time. skoaders setting is the ultimate prove that the math stated by some guys here is and was rock solid to the bones, since months. if you read inbetween the lines of many many mails here in this thread you realise it was "in the air" to be eventually confirmed. JS contributed a great part to it by confirming skoaders approach...! however, great that you recognized that this was the biggest step forward since quite a while. poirqc knew ;-) "...skoader striked again!"
his setting makes me want to sit behind the wheel again...
Yes I Agree that the Proof of invisible Head Room is the Game Changer!!!
Another thing that Has always been My un-answered question is What is 100/1.00 Truly = to??? 50% Power or is 200/2.00 = to 100% power... But it is Now Clearly understood that 100/1.00 = 100% output and anything above 101+ is Tapping into the invisible Head Room/Over Drive.
I Never Doubted that the Math Formulas worked... My Doubts were were based on accepting that there was only 1 Math formula that could be used...Math is a Very versitile Tool and is only Governed by how a individual views and Chooses to go about solving the equation...Ex lets say the Relative system is Progressive 1+1+1+1=4 ...2+2=4... 1+2+1=4 ... Lets say the Full/Soft Clip is Compression/Reducing 5 - 1=4 ...6 -2 =4 ....10 -1 -1 -1 -1-2=4 its all about how the tweeker chooses to use the system to Balance the FFB forces...IMO Yes Skoder Strikes again in Even a Bigger way than Most Noticed... He Has Sucessfully proven what has always been.My theory that there is More than 1 way to use the FFB System...
1) Grimey 100 Masters with all Masters/Forces set to 100/1.00 or below....(Symetrical Balancing to use all parts of the system evenly.)
2) JS uses Low Masters High RAG and other settings 101+ (Uses High RAG to Spice up FFB)
3) Skoader 100 Masters with No Relative system but forces are Balaced/Reduced to specs with Full/Soft Clip (Compression Limiting Method)
So far the we have 3 prooven Methodes of working the FFB system that will all Give same or Similar Results.
Whos up Next to Create the Next New way to use the system:yes:
If you want to have an idea of how the wheel is working, you could use put the game FFB setting you setle to back into the windows control panel. You run the test again. It should get close to what you're using on the PS4.
One user, Nickpicker(not sure), said FFB settings don't translate 1:1 from Xbox to PC. I wonder it it's the case PS4 to PC.
Yes I'm not sure either. Maybe with the csw because of it ignoring the in game master? But after redoing the fcm and trying the results again the scoops say at 68 ffb as calculated seem like a supercharged version of mine with a little less grip feel. I didn't have a ton of time to test the feeling so I'm going to play with it some more.
I donīt wanna spoil the party here but re scaling for the sake of re scaling doesnīt gain anything, itīs like filling up a cup of coffee right up to the edge and in order to
avoid spilling over when moving around the house with it you pour out some instead of leaving a bit of space in the first place. I have developed the tweaker files
without any of the processing stuff active. Compression, limiting, spicing up or re scaling at this early stage would have distorted the results, you probably have
noticed all car settings work with an appropriate TF level without all this stuff. I would not advice a newcomer who is starting here from scratch to set up a complicated
compression re scaling line first before any of the core FFB is ready. Yes, skoaderīs theory is proven to to true and itīs really possible to create much more than just
re scaling. BTW in context with my test I found 2 or 3 different TF, RA and SC combinations that felt similar and even stronger to my usual global setting as reference,
but up to now never worthwhile for changing. IMO Soft Clip compression is a useful tool to help low tier type of wheels building up some force though dynamic gets
narrowed, a CSW v2 or DD wheels donīt need it.
I gave those settings a shot yesterday. First, with both Scoops and RAs disabled. It felt okay, a little heavy though, which made me wonder about the no Scoops thing, because the FCM recommended a slight Scoop adjustment. Without it, the wheel response wasn't linear. So I tried it with only the RAs disabled, and it felt very similar to my current settings. The waveform in the telemetry looked a lot different, due to the compression, but the difference in feel was minor. The cornering weight felt less progressive and their was a slight decrease in road feel (both of which I assume is due to the compression), but my lap times were actually the same. The differences were so minor, though, that after a few laps, I couldn't really sense it anymore. In the end, it seemed like a wash to me, and I didn't see any reason to add compression just for the sake of adding compression. If my lap times had improved, it would have been something to think about. If you're already happy with your feel and weight, I'm not sure what you gain by doing this. It's just seems like another option for achieving the same result.
Yes I'm not sure either. Maybe with the csw because of it ignoring the in game master? But after redoing the fcm and trying the results again the scoops say at 68 ffb as calculated seem like a supercharged version of mine with a little less grip feel. I didn't have a ton of time to test the feeling so I'm going to play with it some more.
I thought the same thing about the FCM recommended settings. But after a while, I realized that, although the grip feel was a little less pronounced, the full range of it was still there. I just had to get used to the slightly softer feel of it.
RobboCod
31-05-2016, 11:53
Exactly. The control panel is only used for pc and fcm testing.
I think I'm about there then. It is irrelevant what the constant force percentage is in the control panel when I plug the wheel back into my ps4 as then whatever game I'm using (pcars) has a setting within it (i.e. the ffb slider in the menu) and becomes the master ffb for forces going to my wheel. The only aspect affecting how my wheel works from pc to ps4 being the firmware.
inthebagbud
31-05-2016, 11:58
I gave those settings a shot yesterday. First, with both Scoops and RAs disabled. It felt okay, a little heavy though, which made me wonder about the no Scoops thing, because the FCM recommended a slight Scoop adjustment. Without it, the wheel response wasn't linear. So I tried it with only the RAs disabled, and it felt very similar to my current settings. The waveform in the telemetry looked a lot different, due to the compression, but the difference in feel was minor. The cornering weight felt less progressive and their was a slight decrease in road feel (both of which I assume is due to the compression), but my lap times were actually the same. The differences were so minor, though, that after a few laps, I couldn't really sense it anymore. In the end, it seemed like a wash to me, and I didn't see any reason to add compression just for the sake of adding compression. If my lap times had improved, it would have been something to think about. If you're already happy with your feel and weight, I'm not sure what you gain by doing this. It's just seems like another option for achieving the same result.
I am not sure if the xbox is the issue here as the FFB just didn't feel right , don't get me wrong its not bad but there is just something about it with the Fanatec wheel .
I have done all the testing /FCM/Wheelchecker - hours /days/weeks and it just felt off - jangling and harsh. This is the first time I have thought h'mm yes I can kinda go with that
Its just another slant to the system
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 12:16
ha, i wonder how long it takes until more people realize that skoader did something very special... it's based on the fact that tireforces can go high up without clipping ("invisible headroom") before getting funneled with RAC and SC. it was proven already in January... and i wondered why it did't stir any echoes at that time. skoaders setting is the ultimate prove that the math stated by some guys here is and was rock solid to the bones, since months. if you read inbetween the lines of many many mails here in this thread you realise it was "in the air" to be eventually confirmed. JS contributed a great part to it by confirming skoaders approach...! however, great that you recognized that this was the biggest step forward since quite a while. poirqc knew ;-) "...skoader striked again!"
his setting makes me want to sit behind the wheel again...
I donīt wanna spoil the party here but re scaling for the sake of re scaling doesnīt gain anything, itīs like filling up a cup of coffee right up to the edge and in order to
avoid spilling over when moving around the house with it you pour out some instead of leaving a bit of space in the first place. I have developed the tweaker files
without any of the processing stuff active. Compression, limiting, spicing up or re scaling at this early stage would have distorted the results, you probably have
noticed all car settings work with an appropriate TF level without all this stuff. I would not advice a newcomer who is starting here from scratch to set up a complicated
compression re scaling line first before any of the core FFB is ready. Yes, skoaderīs theory is proven to to true and itīs really possible to create much more than just
re scaling. BTW in context with my test I found 2 or 3 different TF, RA and SC combinations that felt similar and even stronger to my usual global setting as reference,
but up to now never worthwhile for changing. IMO Soft Clip compression is a useful tool to help low tier type of wheels building up some force though dynamic gets
narrowed, a CSW v2 or DD wheels donīt need it.
Yes I Agree that the Proof of invisible Head Room is the Game Changer!!!
Another thing that Has always been My un-answered question is What is 100/1.00 Truly = to??? 50% Power or is 200/2.00 = to 100% power... But it is Now Clearly understood that 100/1.00 = 100% output and anything above 101+ is Tapping into the invisible Head Room/Over Drive.
I Never Doubted that the Math Formulas worked... My Doubts were were based on accepting that there was only 1 Math formula that could be used...Math is a Very versitile Tool and is only Governed by how a individual views and Chooses to go about solving the equation...Ex lets say the Relative system is Progressive 1+1+1+1=4 ...2+2=4... 1+2+1=4 ... Lets say the Full/Soft Clip is Compression/Reducing 5 - 1=4 ...6 -2 =4 ....10 -1 -1 -1 -1-2=4 its all about how the tweeker chooses to use the system to Balance the FFB forces...IMO Yes Skoder Strikes again in Even a Bigger way than Most Noticed... He Has Sucessfully proven what has always been.My theory that there is More than 1 way to use the FFB System...
1) Grimey 100 Masters with all Masters/Forces set to 100/1.00 or below....(Symetrical Balancing to use all parts of the system evenly.)
2) JS uses Low Masters High RAG and other settings 101+ (Uses High RAG to Spice up FFB)
3) Skoader 100 Masters with No Relative system but forces are Balaced/Reduced to specs with Full/Soft Clip (Compression Limiting Method)
So far the we have 3 prooven Methodes of working the FFB system that will all Give same or Similar Results.
Whos up Next to Create the Next New way to use the system:yes:
I gave those settings a shot yesterday. First, with both Scoops and RAs disabled. It felt okay, a little heavy though, which made me wonder about the no Scoops thing, because the FCM recommended a slight Scoop adjustment. Without it, the wheel response wasn't linear. So I tried it with only the RAs disabled, and it felt very similar to my current settings. The waveform in the telemetry looked a lot different, due to the compression, but the difference in feel was minor. The cornering weight felt less progressive and their was a slight decrease in road feel (both of which I assume is due to the compression), but my lap times were actually the same. The differences were so minor, though, that after a few laps, I couldn't really sense it anymore. In the end, it seemed like a wash to me, and I didn't see any reason to add compression just for the sake of adding compression. If my lap times had improved, it would have been something to think about. If you're already happy with your feel and weight, I'm not sure what you gain by doing this. It's just seems like another option for achieving the same result.
I Agree with all the above Quoted post...
I My Self have Never understood the Need to use anything Higher than 100/1.00 (For Name sake i will call it Symetrical Balancing where all parts of the system are used at 100/1.00 and are Limited at 100/1.00 with RAG so that all parts of the system can be used Equal and Evenly) with No setting above 100/1.00 the Feel and Power is there so i See No Need to use the invisible Head Room thats built into the FFB System...But I do Recognize that there is More than 1 way to work the system and we all still have alot to Learn about it... There is No one that can Claim to be the 1 FFB Jedi Master... Nope Not 1!!!... Its all about what feels good to the end user.
Pcars FFB system is open and is only Limited or Expanded by the Mind of the person that is Tweeking it.
Its a Math Based system and yes the Math Formulas can and do work... but only based on what part of the FFB system the Maker of a Given tweek Chooses to use as the Power Source....as Noted in My above quote i listed the 3 proven ways that have come to light so far that all Give Same or Very Similar Results and Feel.
There is No wrong way there is No Right way...But if you want to at least get pointed in the Right Direction you better Follow Me:stupid: LMAO... Well at least thats My opinion:p LOL
I thought the same thing about the FCM recommended settings. But after a while, I realized that, although the grip feel was a little less pronounced, the full range of it was still there. I just had to get used to the slightly softer feel of it.
Its not so much slightly softer but goes from a good feel to feeling like driving on ice with some cars. The pagani is good example to test with. When the settings are off a little it makes that car really horrible as far as grip feel goes. You might as well be driving on 4 flats.lol
Its not so much slightly softer but goes from a good feel to feeling like driving on ice with some cars. The pagani is good example to test with. When the settings are off a little it makes that car really horrible as far as grip feel goes. You might as well be driving on 4 flats.lol
Oh, my comment wasn't phrased properly. I was talking about the feeling of tire slip. The overall sensation of grip is fine--lighter when the tires are cold, but it's there, and you can feel it build as the tires warm. Usually, by the end of the first lap (depending on the track), the wheel is pretty firm.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 14:08
Oh, my comment wasn't phrased properly. I was talking about the feeling of tire slip. The overall sensation of grip is fine--lighter when the tires are cold, but it's there, and you can feel it build as the tires warm. Usually, by the end of the first lap (depending on the track), the wheel is pretty firm.
This is what i have Noticed also about different Card... Its Not that Different Cars Relate to the FFB system in Different ways... The FFB is Just the FFB... a Bump is Still a Bump a Curb is a Curb... But Different Cars Have Different Levels of Tire Grip/Slip and Side Load Feel which affects the way the Car feels under wieght Tranfer load.... This is evident by the Fact that some Cars start off with Cold tires and No Matter How Hard you are pushing the Car the Tires Never Reach above a certain temperature...The Grip Level will increase as you push and the tires get Hotter but Not beyond the Car/Tire class that you are driving.
This Fact also furthers My belief that 1 FFB can Rule them all because Tire Grip and Bump Feel are 2 different things.
I Have Tested all Cars and as long as i Drive the Car according to its Car Class and Tires used i Find all Cars Perform Very well and i can Get Good Lap times.
tennenbaum
31-05-2016, 14:17
Originally Posted by tennenbaum
ha, i wonder how long it takes until more people realize that skoader did something very special... it's based on the fact that tireforces can go high up without clipping ("invisible headroom") before getting funneled with RAC and SC. it was proven already in January... and i wondered why it did't stir any echoes at that time. skoaders setting is the ultimate prove that the math stated by some guys here is and was rock solid to the bones, since months. if you read inbetween the lines of many many mails here in this thread you realise it was "in the air" to be eventually confirmed. JS contributed a great part to it by confirming skoaders approach...! however, great that you recognized that this was the biggest step forward since quite a while. poirqc knew ;-) "...skoader striked again!"
his setting makes me want to sit behind the wheel again...
Originally Posted by Jack Spade
I donīt wanna spoil the party here but re scaling for the sake of re scaling doesnīt gain anything, itīs like filling up a cup of coffee right up to the edge and in order to
avoid spilling over when moving around the house with it you pour out some instead of leaving a bit of space in the first place. I have developed the tweaker files
without any of the processing stuff active. Compression, limiting, spicing up or re scaling at this early stage would have distorted the results, you probably have
noticed all car settings work with an appropriate TF level without all this stuff. I would not advice a newcomer who is starting here from scratch to set up a complicated
compression re scaling line first before any of the core FFB is ready. Yes, skoaderīs theory is proven to to true and itīs really possible to create much more than just
re scaling. BTW in context with my test I found 2 or 3 different TF, RA and SC combinations that felt similar and even stronger to my usual global setting as reference,
but up to now never worthwhile for changing. IMO Soft Clip compression is a useful tool to help low tier type of wheels building up some force though dynamic gets
narrowed, a CSW v2 or DD wheels donīt need it.
Originally posted by GrimeyDog
Yes I Agree that the Proof of invisible Head Room is the Game Changer!!!
Another thing that Has always been My un-answered question is What is 100/1.00 Truly = to??? 50% Power or is 200/2.00 = to 100% power... But it is Now Clearly understood that 100/1.00 = 100% output and anything above 101+ is Tapping into the invisible Head Room/Over Drive.
I Never Doubted that the Math Formulas worked... My Doubts were were based on accepting that there was only 1 Math formula that could be used...Math is a Very versitile Tool and is only Governed by how a individual views and Chooses to go about solving the equation...Ex lets say the Relative system is Progressive 1+1+1+1=4 ...2+2=4... 1+2+1=4 ... Lets say the Full/Soft Clip is Compression/Reducing 5 - 1=4 ...6 -2 =4 ....10 -1 -1 -1 -1-2=4 its all about how the tweeker chooses to use the system to Balance the FFB forces...IMO Yes Skoder Strikes again in Even a Bigger way than Most Noticed... He Has Sucessfully proven what has always been.My theory that there is More than 1 way to use the FFB System...
1) Grimey 100 Masters with all Masters/Forces set to 100/1.00 or below....(Symetrical Balancing to use all parts of the system evenly.)
2) JS uses Low Masters High RAG and other settings 101+ (Uses High RAG to Spice up FFB)
3) Skoader 100 Masters with No Relative system but forces are Balaced/Reduced to specs with Full/Soft Clip (Compression Limiting Method)
So far the we have 3 prooven Methodes of working the FFB system that will all Give same or Similar Results.
Whos up Next to Create the Next New way to use the system
Originally Posted by Haiden
I gave those settings a shot yesterday. First, with both Scoops and RAs disabled. It felt okay, a little heavy though, which made me wonder about the no Scoops thing, because the FCM recommended a slight Scoop adjustment. Without it, the wheel response wasn't linear. So I tried it with only the RAs disabled, and it felt very similar to my current settings. The waveform in the telemetry looked a lot different, due to the compression, but the difference in feel was minor. The cornering weight felt less progressive and their was a slight decrease in road feel (both of which I assume is due to the compression), but my lap times were actually the same. The differences were so minor, though, that after a few laps, I couldn't really sense it anymore. In the end, it seemed like a wash to me, and I didn't see any reason to add compression just for the sake of adding compression. If my lap times had improved, it would have been something to think about. If you're already happy with your feel and weight, I'm not sure what you gain by doing this. It's just seems like another option for achieving the same result.
I Agree with all the above Quoted post...
I My Self have Never understood the Need to use anything Higher than 100/1.00 (For Name sake i will call it Symetrical Balancing where all parts of the system are used at 100/1.00 and are Limited at 100/1.00 with RAG so that all parts of the system can be used Equal and Evenly) with No setting above 100/1.00 the Feel and Power is there so i See No Need to use the invisible Head Room thats built into the FFB System...But I do Recognize that there is More than 1 way to work the system and we all still have alot to Learn about it... There is No one that can Claim to be the 1 FFB Jedi Master... Nope Not 1!!!... Its all about what feels good to the end user.
Pcars FFB system is open and is only Limited or Expanded by the Mind of the person that is Tweeking it.
Its a Math Based system and yes the Math Formulas can and do work... but only based on what part of the FFB system the Maker of a Given tweek Chooses to use as the Power Source....as Noted in My above quote i listed the 3 proven ways that have come to light so far that all Give Same ir Very Similar Results and Feel.
There is No wrong way there is No Right way...But if you want to at least get pointed in the Right Direction you better Follow Me:stupid: LMAO... Well at leats thats My opinion:p LOL
Let's put it this way:
For JS the headroom is rather irrelevant, because his settings don't need it, i.e. don't make use of it.
Grimey's setting wouldn't work without the existence of the headroom.
Haiden and JS implicate "Why rescaling in the first place, when the result is the same?
Let me ask, why not?
The possibility itself to do so should be separated from skoader's in-car settings, which are of course a matter of personal taste. At that point Grimey is right by saying there is no right or wrong. Though if it comes to the abstract part of looking at the signal chain just knowing that you can do tire force mixes which extend >1.00, even 2.00, by far is just another piece in the puzzle. Not more, not less. But considering the time it took to add that piece (and being recognized as such) a little toast on the explorers who digged a bit deeper this time might be allowed.
Admitted, for users with strong wheels the very nuanced bowing of the I/O curve that is possible with SC (with skoader's findings) is totally secondary. The stronger and better the wheel is what you want is linearity, fullstop. But the majority of cheaper wheels out there can make good use of skoader's findings. I know setting SC properly is difficult. But knowledge to will spread - as always.
But the "invisible headroom" might come more prominently into play when the new Thrustmaster direct drive wheel hits the stores. If the wheel delivers 20+ Nm torque, you might appreciate the larger tire forces scales that the extra headroom is giving you (but you don't use it yet - except Grimey ;-) Give it a thought...
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 14:22
Ok does anybody know where skoader hangs out , he cant just walk in here, open door, throw in grenade and just walk away :D
I just finished resetting wheel after return from manufacturer and posted the ffb results in post above this, then I come across this little statement - and then seeing JS test I plugged in the settings and wtf.
I use Oulton and the RUF as my ffb test and consider if I achieve a high 1.34 or better the ffb has improved - I usually start in the 1.35's and give myself 4 laps as a test to improve my time or disprove the FFB.
I have never really been happy with RA or Scoops so I plug Soft Clip in and hell I am lapping in the 1.34 from the off and set a 1.33.942 - a full god dam second improvement. So to check I went back to my original settings and couldn't get below 1.34.8, so back to no RA/Scoop and I set a 1.34.118, without really trying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEjj9r1bhs
many thanks skoader:applause:
What App did you use to Make and upload your Video from XB1??? I Havent been on the XB1 in Sooo Long i dont Know how to Capture and upload Full Videos from XB1... The longest Video i Managed to get was 30 secs or so.... That was a Few months ago.
I would like to do some Testing and uploading from XB1 also.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 14:46
Let's put it this way:
For JS the headroom is rather irrelevant, because his settings don't need it, i.e. don't make use of it.
Grimey's setting wouldn't work without the existence of the headroom.
Haiden and JS implicate "Why rescaling in the first place, when the result is the same?
Let me ask, why not?
The possibility itself to do so should be separated from skoader's in-car settings, which are of course a matter of personal taste. At that point Grimey is right by saying there is no right or wrong. Though if it comes to the abstract part of looking at the signal chain just knowing that you can do tire force mixes which extend >1.00, even 2.00, by far is just another piece in the puzzle. Not more, not less. But considering the time it took to add that piece (and being recognized as such) a little toast on the explorers who digged a bit deeper this time might be allowed.
Admitted, for users with strong wheels the very nuanced bowing of the I/O curve that is possible with SC (with skoader's findings) is totally secondary. The stronger and better the wheel is what you want is linearity, fullstop. But the majority of cheaper wheels out there can make good use of skoader's findings. I know setting SC properly is difficult. But knowledge to will spread - as always.
But the "invisible headroom" might come more prominently into play when the new Thrustmaster direct drive wheel hits the stores. If the wheel delivers 20+ Nm torque, you might appreciate the larger tire forces scales that the extra headroom is giving you (but you don't use it yet - except Grimey ;-) Give it a thought...
Question... Now that I have Scaled My TF back to 75 Why do you think that im still using the invisible Head Room??? Yes I still use Masters 100 but that is so users Have +99 or -99 Room For adjustment per Car ... This Offers Greater ability to taylor the FFB strength per Car... Hmmm I guess i am Compressing the FFB back down with TF 75 in a way by using TF 75 but even when i used TF 100 at No time did i get FFB Flat Lines top or bottom of the FFB Graph it was just Stronger/More Saturated FFB Forces....Even at TF 100 the FFB Spike Tips would Not get cut off due to the 75 RAC... With TF/RAC 75 the Graph Reads the Same Just less Saturated FFB Forces are present in the wheel.
If 100/1.00 is the intuitively Correct Value then why is it Not considered that using settings 101+ is using Compression also and tapping into the invisible Head Room??? I believe it is.
Very Honest Questions with No side Adjendas or arguments just Need further Clarification.... Also Note the Post that you Linked that Gave the Math Formula Gave 2Ũ Math equations High Masters/ Low Masters and said the End Result and Feel would be Identical.
Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that" End Quote.
This is what i have Noticed also about different Card... Its Not that Different Cars Relate to the FFB system in Different ways... The FFB is Just the FFB... a Bump is Still a Bump a Curb is a Curb... But Different Cars Have Different Levels of Tire Grip/Slip and Side Load Feel which affects the way the Car feels under wieght Tranfer load.... This is evident by the Fact that some Cars start off with Cold tires and No Matter How Hard you are pushing the Car the Tires Never Reach above a certain temperature...The Grip Level will increase as you push and the tires get Hotter but Not beyond the Car/Tire class that you are driving.
This Fact also furthers My belief that 1 FFB can Rule them all because Tire Grip and Bump Feel are 2 different things.
I Have Tested all Cars and as long as i Drive the Car according to its Car Class and Tires used i Find all Cars Perform Very well and i can Get Good Lap times.
The difference between the cars is two fold. Yes, there are mechanical differences, which play out through the physics model. These are the differences you're referring to. But there are also modeling differences, which has been explained several times in this thread. The fact that some cars generate little to no Fy force is not a mechanical difference and isn't representative of real world physics. Same for the Red Bull--a car that has negative Fy. How is that a mechanical RL world difference? If you want to use one FFB for all, that's totally fine. But some of the differences you're feeling aren't due to mechanical variables. If PCars used canned FFB effects, then a one-for-all approach would probably be perfect. But that's not the way it was designed.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 15:32
The difference between the cars is two fold. Yes, there are mechanical differences, which play out through the physics model. These are the differences you're referring to. But there are also modeling differences, which has been explained several times in this thread. The fact that some cars generate little to no Fy force is not a mechanical difference and isn't representative of real world physics. Same for the Red Bull--a car that has negative Fy. How is that a mechanical RL world difference? If you want to use one FFB for all, that's totally fine. But some of the differences you're feeling aren't due to mechanical variables. If PCars used canned FFB effects, then a one-for-all approach would probably be perfect. But that's not the way it was designed.
Heres My Question...If Pcars Does Not use Canned Effects and all Cars are Modeled after Real Data Based on Car Performance...When a Car puts out Little to No Fy then Thats either 1 of 2 things 1)You are Tweeking the Car Physics with FFB effects which IMO is what Suspension Tuning is for or 2) SMS Screwed up the Car and Did Not accurately Replicate the RL performance and Charateristics of the Car when they programmed it.
In the end None of it Really Matters as long as the Car Drives and Feels the way the User Thinks it should feel and it performs up to the users expectations.
My point has always Been Not to Blur the Line Between FBB Tweeking and Suspension tuning... This is a important Fact that Must be Understood by All... Experienced Tweekers and Pcars Newbies.
Edit: Just Giving My personal opinion and thoughts to Shed Light on My 1 FFB to Rule them All Tweek Theory/Method... For Me with My Tweek Method all Cars Handle as i would expect...i trust that SMS programmed the RL physics Data for the Car and I Deal with any Car Handling issues with Suspension tuning Not FFB Tweeking.
Heres My Question...If Pcars Does Not use Canned Effects and all Cars are Modeled after Real Data Based on Car Performance...Whan a Car Does puts out Little to No Fy then Thats either 1 of 2 things 1)You are Tweeking the Car Physics with FFB effects which IMO is what Suspension Tuning is for or 2) SMS Screwed up the Car and Did Not accurately Replicate the RL performance and Charateristics of the Car when they programmed it.
In the end None of it Really Matters as long as the Car Drives and Feels the way the User Thinks it should feel and it performs up to the users expectations.
My point has always Been Not to Blur the Line Between FDB Tweeking and Suspension tuning... This is a important Fact that Must be Understood by All... Experienced Tweekers and Pcars Newbies.
I don't think it has anything to do with using FFB for suspension tuning. I also don't think we can completely rule out programming error, in some cases. But I think those are the exceptions, few and far between, and not the norm. IMO, it seems like a case of misunderstanding through oversimplification, which often happens. Replicating RL performance and characteristics isn't as easy as you would think. These cars span a range of time periods and classes. When modeling a car from 1970, you're dealing with a completely different set of mechanics. Some of those parts aren't used on modern cars. And even the parts that are still being used have changed drastically due to technology improvements. It seems unavoidable that trying to accurately simulate these unique mechanical sets and configurations would result in output variances from the different car models, at least it does to me. And, if you look at Jack's settings, the values between similar classes and time periods are often very similar.
Perhaps the car that puts out little to no Fy force is missing a part(s) or differs mechanically in a way that makes it unable to fully utilize the part of the physics model that's responsible for generating that force. The programming behind this sim is extremely complex. I don't think you can use simple If, Then logic to puzzle out the issue.
Jack Spade
31-05-2016, 16:27
Heres My Question...If Pcars Does Not use Canned Effects and all Cars are Modeled after Real Data Based on Car Performance...When a Car puts out Little to No Fy then Thats either 1 of 2 things 1)You are Tweeking the Car Physics with FFB effects which IMO is what Suspension Tuning is for or 2) SMS Screwed up the Car and Did Not accurately Replicate the RL performance and Charateristics of the Car when they programmed it.
In the end None of it Really Matters as long as the Car Drives and Feels the way the User Thinks it should feel and it performs up to the users expectations.
My point has always Been Not to Blur the Line Between FBB Tweeking and Suspension tuning... This is a important Fact that Must be Understood by All... Experienced Tweekers and Pcars Newbies.
Edit: Just Giving My personal opinion and thoughts to Shed Light on My 1 FFB to Rule them All Tweek Theory/Method... For Me with My Tweek Method all Cars Handle as i would expect...i trust that SMS programmed the RL physics Data for the Car and I Deal with any Car Handling issues with Suspension tuning Not FFB Tweeking.
I have reported about it numerous times..... the real levels of forces the physics spits out per car could vary very much, here a simple example force = weight
Car A - 1.0 Mz = 1.0 kg
Car B - 1.0 Mz = 1.3 kg
Car C - 1.0 Mz = 0.4 kg
.....and it goes on like that with Fy, Sop etc.... the reason a per car tuning is required to compensate these differences.
I have learned from the devs due to car construction some of it sometimes could be strange like on the SL 300 for instance where perhaps 1.0 Fy = 0.002 kg
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 16:33
I don't think it has anything to do with using FFB for suspension tuning. I also don't think we can completely rule out programming error, in some cases. But I think those are the exceptions, few and far between, and not the norm. IMO, it seems like a case of misunderstanding through oversimplification, which often happens. Replicating RL performance and characteristics isn't as easy as you would think. These cars span a range of time periods and classes. When modeling a car from 1970, you're dealing with a completely different set of mechanics. Some of those parts aren't used on modern cars. And even the parts that are still being used have changed drastically due to technology improvements. It seems unavoidable that trying to accurately simulate these unique mechanical sets and configurations would result in output variances from the different car models, at least it does to me. And, if you look at Jack's settings, the values between similar classes and time periods are often very similar.
Perhaps the car that puts out little to no Fy force is missing a part(s) or differs mechanically in a way that makes it unable to fully utilize the part of the physics model that's responsible for generating that force. The programming behind this sim is extremely complex. I don't think you can use simple If, Then logic to puzzle out the issue.
LOL... If was a Typo... Im Posting From My Phone... to Correct My Statement i will amend the if to Because Pcars uses No Canned FFB Effects...Now i can Logic to Puzzle out the issue:yes: LOL:o
I think the Biggest Diff Between the Older Cars and Car Classes is the DOR and Body Roll... I think SMS did a Pretty Good Job at the Older Car Physics... The Older Mustang Feels Pretty Close to How the Old Center Link Steering used to Feel Body Roll and All:yes: Very Good Job with that Car IMO.
In any Event the FFB Feels Really Good and im Very Happy with it...So Far I Have Not come across a car that is undrivable and im pretty sure i tested them all.
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If you want to have an idea of how the wheel is working, you could use put the game FFB setting you setle to back into the windows control panel. You run the test again. It should get close to what you're using on the PS4.
One user, Nickpicker(not sure), said FFB settings don't translate 1:1 from Xbox to PC. I wonder it it's the case PS4 to PC.
I thought this, console<>pc, was a given at this point.
I have reported about it numerous times..... the real levels of forces the physics spits out per car could vary very much, here a simple example force = weight
Car A - 1.0 Mz = 1.0 kg
Car B - 1.0 Mz = 1.3 kg
Car C - 1.0 Mz = 0.4 kg
.....and it goes on like that with Fy, Sop etc.... the reason a per car tuning is required to compensate these differences.
I have learned from the devs due to car construction some of it sometimes could be strange like on the SL 300 for instance where perhaps 1.0 Fy = 0.002 kg
LOL... If was a Typo... Im Posting From My Phone... to Correct My Statement i will amend the if to Because Pcars uses No Canned FFB Effects...Now i can Logic to Puzzle out the issue:yes: LOL:o
I think the Biggest Diff Between the Older Cars and Car Classes is the DOR and Body Roll... I think SMS did a Pretty Good Job at the Older Car Physics... The Older Mustang Feels Pretty Close to How the Old Center Link Steering used to Feel Body Roll and All:yes: Very Good Job with that Car IMO.
In any Event the FFB Feels Really Good and im Very Happy with it...So Far I Have Not come across a car that is undrivable and im pretty sure i tested them all.
That explains it right there. If the units of force equate to something different per car, then I think you can see the issues with a one-for-all approach. I'm sure you can develop a single tune that feels fairly good in all cars, and gives each car it's own unique feel. But the differences and nuances you're feeling may not be due to RL physics. In fact, you may feel differences that don't actually exist. Jack's settings are an approximation, so they're not perfect representations of RL, but at least they take these modeling differences into account and attempt to normalize the output.
RobboCod
31-05-2016, 18:13
I thought this, console<>pc, was a given at this point.
It no doubt will be. I'm very late in the game for this ffb tweaking game. Reasons include being new to sim racing and owning my first ffb wheel. What these wheels can give you in terms of feel is brilliant. Currently running the fcm tool as per your idiot's guide.
tennenbaum
31-05-2016, 18:45
Question... Now that I have Scaled My TF back to 75 Why do you think that im still using the invisible Head Room??? Yes I still use Masters 100 but that is so users Have +99 or -99 Room For adjustment per Car ... This Offers Greater ability to taylor the FFB strength per Car... Hmmm I guess i am Compressing the FFB back down with TF 75 in a way by using TF 75 but even when i used TF 100 at No time did i get FFB Flat Lines top or bottom of the FFB Graph it was just Stronger/More Saturated FFB Forces....Even at TF 100 the FFB Spike Tips would Not get cut off due to the 75 RAC... With TF/RAC 75 the Graph Reads the Same Just less Saturated FFB Forces are present in the wheel.
If 100/1.00 is the intuitively Correct Value then why is it Not considered that using settings 101+ is using Compression also and tapping into the invisible Head Room??? I believe it is.
Very Honest Questions with No side Adjendas or arguments just Need further Clarification.... Also Note the Post that you Linked that Gave the Math Formula Gave 2Ũ Math equations High Masters/ Low Masters and said the End Result and Feel would be Identical.
Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that" End Quote.
Sorry Grimey, i don't understand what your question is regarding Ermos quote
Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that" End Quote.
a.) and b.) give the same result. And that's right. That's why you put Ermo's statement about the distributive math in your opening post. But how does it connect with your paragraph about the doubt that your setting uses the "invisible headroom?
Here how i do the math that makes me say, you are using the headroom:
Let's use your value Fz 60 for example. To keep it simpler i put aside that at certain moments the other forces Fy, etc, can add on. So let's look at an isolated force. Your Spindle Master Scale = 100. Your TF setting = 75. (I also leave SG aside, since you set it at 1.0).
0.6 x 1.0 x 0.75 = 0.45
Multiply 0.45 with "the factor 5". Note: I explained "The factor 5" in my "about pCars' FFB" text, link below. It can be tested...
0.45 x 5 = 2.25
With your settings you exceed the 1.00 with 1.25 into the invisible headroom. (And i'm talking only about one force. Others can add up to that value.)
So with RAC you don't "compress" from 1.00 to 0.75, you actually compress from 2.25 to 0.75. We discussed that already in March ;-) see: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1256142&viewfull=1#post1256142
You're saying even with TF 100 you never got any Flat Lines top or bottom. Of course not when you set RAC =< 1.00. It's the purpose of RAC to make sure every signal even if it's 5.0 or even higher (which is possible) to "bring down" to the value RAC is set to.
In the pictures i allowed tire forces to go up to approx. 2.8 (instead of 2.25) and set RAC to 1.0 (instead of 0,75) but that's what RAC is doing. What i called the "area of less differentiation" is the range of higher tire forces that get compressed, thus being in the saturation zone. Meaning the absolute delta between peak 1 and "valley" 1 of the forces in the invisible headroom "translate" into a much smaller delta after RAC did its work. The change from a greater delta to the smaller delta represents the loss of differentiation. In comparison to that you can see that the signal when rising to first peak stays unaltered until it reaches the "knee" where RAC soft limiting sets in. So before the knee there is no delta change, after the knee each input delta change leads to much lees output delta change.
I elaborated on that because it might help to understand how the invisible headroom is connected to the question how much saturation can happen without seing it. The reason why you never see a flat line at the hight of your RAC value that expresses the actual saturation is, that what actually would be a pretty flat (saturation) line is "broken" by the spikes... However just doing my daily portion of nerdy-ness here :-)
233860
inthebagbud
31-05-2016, 18:47
What App did you use to Make and upload your Video from XB1??? I Havent been on the XB1 in Sooo Long i dont Know how to Capture and upload Full Videos from XB1... The longest Video i Managed to get was 30 secs or so.... That was a Few months ago.
I would like to do some Testing and uploading from XB1 also.
I use the elgato https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming (https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming) but you have to plug into a pc to record and stream - a pain but the only way to go if you want to record properly
tennenbaum
31-05-2016, 19:21
But the "invisible headroom" might come more prominently into play when the new Thrustmaster direct drive wheel hits the stores. If the wheel delivers 20+ Nm torque, you might appreciate the larger tire forces scales that the extra headroom is giving you.
Just referring to my own quote. Here steering torque forces of real cars, plus steering torque forces real drivers (formula student open wheelers) can achieve the most (range 40 - 88 Nm) http://www.sae.org/students/cockpit_control_forces.pdf
233861
Formula Student cars (that don't have steering aids) are bulit in a way that they shall have not more than 10 - 12 Nm steering torque. Race karts might be around the same, possibly a little bit higher.
l
And here a link that shows the max torque (48 Nm) a professional servo motor can do for commercial race car simulators http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/products/Force-Feedback-Wheels/Senso-Wheel-HT.php
It' s also known that usually 20 Nm cover what's usually needed to simulate real IRL steering forces. Very good motors and system can differentiate 0.02 Nm, thus having a resolution of 1.000 steps (deltas). Devs know that is makes sense to provide a tireforce scale-range that can deliver such dynamic, so they can use their software for commercial use as well. And that they can keep the core of their physics engine over the years when even consumer wheels get stronger and stronger with differentiation that was only available for pro wheels before. That explains why there is an invisible headroom. Internally the game has already built in what can be utilized later, with stronger wheels. 200 tire force steps per force, times 2 (if SMS set to 200 =2.00) times 2 (if TF set to 200 = 2.00) = 200x2x2 = 800. So the scalers indicate that when they started the development they were looking forward to stronger wheels with better differentiation (resolution).
Side note: A thrustmaster T300 is said to have a torque of 3-5 Nm. So that is not so bad compared to a real car. And with a 25 cm diameter wheel 5 Nm make you push and press with each hand at the wheel about 2 kg per hand during cornering.
tennenbaum
31-05-2016, 21:23
I don't think it has anything to do with using FFB for suspension tuning. I also don't think we can completely rule out programming error, in some cases. But I think those are the exceptions, few and far between, and not the norm. IMO, it seems like a case of misunderstanding through oversimplification, which often happens. Replicating RL performance and characteristics isn't as easy as you would think. These cars span a range of time periods and classes. When modeling a car from 1970, you're dealing with a completely different set of mechanics. Some of those parts aren't used on modern cars. And even the parts that are still being used have changed drastically due to technology improvements. It seems unavoidable that trying to accurately simulate these unique mechanical sets and configurations would result in output variances from the different car models, at least it does to me. And, if you look at Jack's settings, the values between similar classes and time periods are often very similar.
Perhaps the car that puts out little to no Fy force is missing a part(s) or differs mechanically in a way that makes it unable to fully utilize the part of the physics model that's responsible for generating that force. The programming behind this sim is extremely complex. I don't think you can use simple If, Then logic to puzzle out the issue.
a lot of true things are said here. since its a sim, it simulates the real world disputes as well. driving physics are complex, the stuff we debate here, is debated in the real world too. the mazda radbul pushes the envelope even for IRL engineers. JS does approximations, SMS does approximations, Grimey does it, we don't even know why Fz is inverse... kudos to Haiden, just to remind of the many factors involved.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 21:34
Sorry Grimey, i don't understand what your question is regarding Ermos quote
a.) and b.) give the same result. And that's right. That's why you put Ermo's statement about the distributive math in your opening post. But how does it connect with your paragraph about the doubt that your setting uses the "invisible headroom?
Here how i do the math that makes me say, you are using the headroom:
Let's use your value Fz 60 for example. To keep it simpler i put aside that at certain moments the other forces Fy, etc, can add on. So let's look at an isolated force. Your Spindle Master Scale = 100. Your TF setting = 75. (I also leave SG aside, since you set it at 1.0).
0.6 x 1.0 x 0.75 = 0.45
Multiply 0.45 with "the factor 5". Note: I explained "The factor 5" in my "about pCars' FFB" text, link below. It can be tested...
0.45 x 5 = 2.25
With your settings you exceed the 1.00 with 1.25 into the invisible headroom. (And i'm talking only about one force. Others can add up to that value.)
So with RAC you don't "compress" from 1.00 to 0.75, you actually compress from 2.25 to 0.75. We discussed that already in March ;-) see: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1256142&viewfull=1#post1256142
You're saying even with TF 100 you never got any Flat Lines top or bottom. Of course not when you set RAC =< 1.00. It's the purpose of RAC to make sure every signal even if it's 5.0 or even higher (which is possible) to "bring down" to the value RAC is set to.
In the pictures i allowed tire forces to go up to approx. 2.8 (instead of 2.25) and set RAC to 1.0 (instead of 0,75) but that's what RAC is doing. What i called the "area of less differentiation" is the range of higher tire forces that get compressed, thus being in the saturation zone. Meaning the absolute delta between peak 1 and "valley" 1 of the forces in the invisible headroom "translate" into a much smaller delta after RAC did its work. The change from a greater delta to the smaller delta represents the loss of differentiation. In comparison to that you can see that the signal when rising to first peak stays unaltered until it reaches the "knee" where RAC soft limiting sets in. So before the knee there is no delta change, after the knee each input delta change leads to much lees output delta change.
I elaborated on that because it might help to understand how the invisible headroom is connected to the question how much saturation can happen without seing it. The reason why you never see a flat line at the hight of your RAC value that expresses the actual saturation is, that what actually would be a pretty flat (saturation) line is "broken" by the spikes... However just doing my daily portion of nerdy-ness here :-)
233860
Just referring to my own quote. Here steering torque forces of real cars, plus steering torque forces real drivers (formula student open wheelers) can achieve the most (range 40 - 88 Nm) http://www.sae.org/students/cockpit_control_forces.pdf
233861
Formula Student cars (that don't have steering aids) are bulit in a way that they shall have not more than 10 - 12 Nm steering torque. Race karts might be around the same, possibly a little bit higher.
l
And here a link that shows the max torque (48 Nm) a professional servo motor can do for commercial race car simulators http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/products/Force-Feedback-Wheels/Senso-Wheel-HT.php
It' s also known that usually 20 Nm cover what's usually needed to simulate real IRL steering forces. Very good motors and system can differentiate 0.02 Nm, thus having a resolution of 1.000 steps (deltas). Devs know that is makes sense to provide a tireforce scale-range that can deliver such dynamic, so they can use their software for commercial use as well. And that they can keep the core of their physics engine over the years when even consumer wheels get stronger and stronger with differentiation that was only available for pro wheels before. That explains why there is an invisible headroom. Internally the game has already built in what can be utilized later, with stronger wheels. 200 tire force steps per force, times 2 (if SMS set to 200 =2.00) times 2 (if TF set to 200 = 2.00) = 200x2x2 = 800. So the scalers indicate that when they started the development they were looking forward to stronger wheels with better differentiation (resolution).
Side note: A thrustmaster T300 is said to have a torque of 3-5 Nm. So that is not so bad compared to a real car. And with a 25 cm diameter wheel 5 Nm make you push and press with each hand at the wheel about 2 kg per hand during cornering.
:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:
Dammit tennenbaum!!! what would we do here without you:victorious: Aaaah Haaa i get it... Hey I"m only just now trying to get into this mathematical tweek thing so you just have to bear with me:stupid: I think its a good thing that i took My time to decipher the FFB system based on feel because i gained a good understanding of it by Trial, Error and Feel... i have very old school ways i believe in Hands on fixes and solutions.
Don't expect this to be My last simple to you but complex to Me question either :no: I'm not done picking your brain yet:p LOL thnx:yes:
tennenbaum
31-05-2016, 21:46
:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:
Dammit tennenbaum!!! what would we do here without you:victorious: Aaaah Haaa i get it... Hey I"m only just now trying to get into this mathematical tweek thing so you just have to bear with me:stupid: I think its a good thing that i took My time to decipher the FFB system based on feel because i gained a good understanding of it by Trial, Error and Feel... i have very old school ways i believe in Hands on fixes and solutions.
Don't expect this to be My last simple to you but complex to Me question either :no: I'm not done picking your brain yet:p LOL thnx:yes:
pity it's a bit of some mileage between Munich and big apple... a beer together would be fun!
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 22:00
I have reported about it numerous times..... the real levels of forces the physics spits out per car could vary very much, here a simple example force = weight
Car A - 1.0 Mz = 1.0 kg
Car B - 1.0 Mz = 1.3 kg
Car C - 1.0 Mz = 0.4 kg
.....and it goes on like that with Fy, Sop etc.... the reason a per car tuning is required to compensate these differences.
I have learned from the devs due to car construction some of it sometimes could be strange like on the SL 300 for instance where perhaps 1.0 Fy = 0.002 kg
That explains it right there. If the units of force equate to something different per car, then I think you can see the issues with a one-for-all approach. I'm sure you can develop a single tune that feels fairly good in all cars, and gives each car it's own unique feel. But the differences and nuances you're feeling may not be due to RL physics. In fact, you may feel differences that don't actually exist. Jack's settings are an approximation, so they're not perfect representations of RL, but at least they take these modeling differences into account and attempt to normalize the output.
Thanks for the clarification... i get what you mean now... for Me i do notice the different wheel weight and changes in Mz when driving different cars but for Me i take it as that's just the difference in the way the cars drive... Also because i use different settings that have more saturation than yours the same car that may have slight Mz feel with your settings the feel will be stronger with mine and i dont feel the need to change it.
Below is a video of the SL 300 and for me it feels just fine as it is... take note before you become critical of the FFB line and the small tight spikes while cornering especially after the bus stop in the long right sweeper turn take note of the friction rings around each tire and listen for the tire scrubbing that's going on... once the yellow friction rings calm down you notice the FFB line goes as flat as it can be according to road surface...also note that I'm mostly full throttle once i get the car settled and pointed...so yes I can feel every bit of that in the wheel and IMO its supposed to be there because the tires are scrubbing for grip... you will even notice that i needed to counter steer slightly because i could feel the car trying to break loose.
Mercedes SL 300 video
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0b4BdWn41RU/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=YzGALPrpx8hnDk_vsTpWsEPWxDA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4BdWn41RU)
Thanks for the clarification... i get what you mean now... for Me i do notice the different wheel weight and changes in Mz when driving different cars but for Me i take it as that's just the difference in the way the cars drive... Also because i use different settings that have more saturation than yours the same car that may have slight Mz feel with your settings the feel will be stronger with mine and i dont feel the need to change it.
Below is a video of the SL 300 and for me it feels just fine as it is... take note before you become critical of the FFB line and the small tight spikes while cornering especially after the bus stop in the long right sweeper turn take note of the friction rings around each tire and listen for the tire scrubbing that's going on... once the yellow friction rings calm down you notice the FFB line goes a flat as it can be according to road surface...also note that I'm mostly full throttle once i get the car settled and pointed...so yes I can feel every bit of that in the wheel and IMO its supposed to be there because the tires are scrubbing for grip... you will even notice that i needed to counter steer slightly because i could feel the car trying to break loose.
Mercedes SL 300 video
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0b4BdWn41RU/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=YzGALPrpx8hnDk_vsTpWsEPWxDA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4BdWn41RU)
1st thing, this car is awesome to drive!
The reason you can feel those small tight spikes is that you have a high end wheel. The wheel can render them. It doesn do anything on a G27, the wheel can't keep up. It's essentially like having a flat line.
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 22:48
Mazda Rad Bull video!!! This car is a Beast!!! IRL if the car really drives like this they should call it the widow maker!!! Because some one will surely kill their self driving it like a mad man!!! its just too Much Horse power for such a small light car!!!
The way the rear kicks out to the right when you jam the gas feels just like my buick regal that i stuffed a chevy 400 small block in!!! but with much more kick to it!!! when you jam the gas in a high horse power car you can fully expect the tail to kick right Every time!!! i love that feeling!!!
Mazda rad Bull...The beast!!!
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NrDbeBQ77eA/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=9aYko3LbNu9YCeYnXMkvrha1ZQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrDbeBQ77eA)
GrimeyDog
31-05-2016, 23:04
pity it's a bit of some mileage between Munich and big apple... a beer together would be fun!
tennenbaum if you ever come to N.Y. make sure you let me know!!! It would be such a honor to sit and drink more than a few beers with you!!!
1st thing, this car is awesome to drive!
The reason you can feel those small tight spikes is that you have a high end wheel. The wheel can render them. It doesn do anything on a G27, the wheel can't keep up. It's essentially like having a flat line.
yes i enjoyed driving that car very Much!!! i have driven it a few times but have not had the pleasure to race it online yet...
question is then how do we tone the forces down so they can be felt by all wheels??? reduce TF/RAC, Car Masters??? I'm thinking to hook up my GT3 wheel and see how it does??? then i can feel and can make the needed adjustments... but I'm sure the G27 should fair better than the Gt3 wheel... the G27 is newer so it should keep up better???
It no doubt will be. I'm very late in the game for this ffb tweaking game. Reasons include being new to sim racing and owning my first ffb wheel. What these wheels can give you in terms of feel is brilliant. Currently running the fcm tool as per your idiot's guide.
I did edit out the for idiots bit didn't I? That was meant as a personal joke because I have always just hated that naming convention.
Thanks for the clarification... i get what you mean now... for Me i do notice the different wheel weight and changes in Mz when driving different cars but for Me i take it as that's just the difference in the way the cars drive... Also because i use different settings that have more saturation than yours the same car that may have slight Mz feel with your settings the feel will be stronger with mine and i dont feel the need to change it.
Yep. And the ones that have exaggerated force levels will be even more exaggerated. Works both ways. :) But if you're fine with it, run with it. No need to change. Just explaining why some of us choose to normalize the in-car FFB.
tennenbaum if you ever come to N.Y. make sure you let me know!!! It would be such a honor to sit and drink more than a few beers with you!!!
yes i enjoyed driving that car very Much!!! i have driven it a few times but have not had the pleasure to race it online yet...
question is then how do we tone the forces down so they can be felt by all wheels??? reduce TF/RAC??? I'm thinking to hook up my GT3 wheel and see how it does??? then i can feel and can make the needed adjustments... but I'm sure the G27 should fair better than the Gt3 wheel... the G27 is newer so it should keep up better???
A G27 can give enough steering feels, it just needs to happend at a slower pace. It's good to render tire deformation, grip, etc, but there's less room for some "icing", tastefull suggary icing! :D
The rescaling test was just an excercise in proving that the headroom above 1.0 exists and at the same time showing that SC rescaling has no negative effects such as a loss of detail or the introduction of artifacts. Nothing more.
I don't think anyone was attempting to say rescaling in this way just for the sake of doing it was somehow better. Yes inthebagbud improved his laptimes with those settings, but that's more than likely due to the SC curve. It obviously suits him.
The real implications of this headroom are another discussion altogether. If you're thinking it's exactly the same so what's the point, then you're missing it. :rolleyes:
tennenbaum if you ever come to N.Y. make sure you let me know!!! It would be such a honor to sit and drink more than a few beers with you!!!
yes i enjoyed driving that car very Much!!! i have driven it a few times but have not had the pleasure to race it online yet...
question is then how do we tone the forces down so they can be felt by all wheels??? reduce TF/RAC, Car Masters??? I'm thinking to hook up my GT3 wheel and see how it does??? then i can feel and can make the needed adjustments... but I'm sure the G27 should fair better than the Gt3 wheel... the G27 is newer so it should keep up better???
Its funny you mention that. I'm not sure any of us have truly got all you can out of this. I think we are close but not quite there yet. I know I got a taste of some truly great ffb the other night but a little out of balance and too strong. The braking forces where soooo clear even the tire skipping as it tried for grip entering the corner. But the corning forces grew way to fast and the grip feel was off. I'm hoping its as simple as I think it might be to get right but I haven't had a chance t get back and try it yet.
The rescaling test was just an excercise in proving that the headroom above 1.0 exists and at the same time showing that SC rescaling has no negative effects such as a loss of detail or the introduction of artifacts. Nothing more.
I don't think anyone was attempting to say rescaling in this way just for the sake of doing it was somehow better. Yes inthebagbud improved his laptimes with those settings, but that's more than likely due to the SC curve. It obviously suits him.
The real implications of this headroom are another discussion altogether. If you're thinking it's exactly the same so what's the point, then you're missing it. :rolleyes:
So if I get this right youre saying we could leave tf at 100 and rescale it with sc so it doesn't clip without giving up detail. With tf at 100 you should gain detail barring clipping or over saturation.
So if I get this right youre saying we could leave tf at 100 and rescale it with sc so it doesn't clip without giving up detail. With tf at 100 you should gain detail barring clipping or over saturation.
Well, if you put wheels carateristic aside, you either crank the ramp up with soft clipping, leave thing linear without SC or Scoops(DRR) or have a slower rampup thanks to Scoops. I'm not mentioning RAs because it seems you can do pretty much what you want with it. And it doesn't fit with "regular" tools.
So if I get this right youre saying we could leave tf at 100 and rescale it with sc so it doesn't clip without giving up detail. With tf at 100 you should gain detail barring clipping or over saturation.
IDK, I think there's always some loss of detail with compression. The higher the compression the more you lose. It's not extreme, and loss probably isn't the right word. But compressing that range means less differentiation, because it's working in a tighter more narrow space. You can see it in the telemetry. My guess is, some people could be fine with it (those with a higher degree of tactile sense) and some won't. That's what I was referring to when I said the cornering weight was less progressive, and I felt a slight loss of detail. It's probably still there, I just wasn't able to feel it at those levels.
inthebagbud
01-06-2016, 05:46
The rescaling test was just an excercise in proving that the headroom above 1.0 exists and at the same time showing that SC rescaling has no negative effects such as a loss of detail or the introduction of artifacts. Nothing more.
I don't think anyone was attempting to say rescaling in this way just for the sake of doing it was somehow better. Yes inthebagbud improved his laptimes with those settings, but that's more than likely due to the SC curve. It obviously suits him.
The real implications of this headroom are another discussion altogether. If you're thinking it's exactly the same so what's the point, then you're missing it. :rolleyes:
Yes it does suit me and as I have said before this may be because of the xbox as the ffb is rather clanky/harsh, now that may be the way it feels to everybody else (as nobody can post a video of the feel ) but I have never liked it and felt it was handicapping me.
I do test the fcm/wheelchecker but driving is by feel and the only thing I have lost here is the harshness but have gained time. I am going to go back to some of my old tt's and rerun them to see if there is a similar gain in pace.
One of my reference points in ffb testing is the shell oils corner on the oulton international circuit, if I can feel the tyres in sync with the ffb, in that if you watch my video there are undulations in the graph as you turn then the ffb is working, if I over saturate the undulations are there but you do not feel them, if the ffb is to low the undulations flatten out and gain you cannot feel them.
The feel of this ffb is also more progressive with a softer feel and it maybe that it suits my style but that's what it is all about in the end.
I do have some clipping but until I have driven some higher end cars I will live with it and hopefully a TF reduction on some will aleviate this or I just live with it if it is intermittant
Jack Spade
01-06-2016, 07:54
So if I get this right youre saying we could leave tf at 100 and rescale it with sc so it doesn't clip without giving up detail. With tf at 100 you should gain detail barring clipping or over saturation.
Using SC just to re scale a high TF level without loss of detail is possible and this was what my test was all about. As said in an earlier posting re scaling for the sake of re scaling
doesnīt make much sense if you finally end up where you started from. On the other side the tool makes a lot of sense if you prefer a compressed and non clipping FFB signal.
Compressors in general narrow the dynamics as low forces increase high forces decrease while spikes and edges tend to smooth out, finding a suitable balance or compromise
here is not always that easy.
RobboCod
01-06-2016, 08:24
I did edit out the for idiots bit didn't I? That was meant as a personal joke because I have always just hated that naming convention.
Oh I didn't take any offence myself. Everybody starts from same point just at different times. The FCM tool gave me similar results to what I had been using (morpwr's). Main difference was SR which was suggested at .41. Wheel was noticeably heavier when I adjusted these to try out. I need to do some more as I only used the wheel for a few laps then did the test.
Those 3 sentences are right.
Were arguing what the hud actually display.
If you don't compress the signal, it's clipped at the output. The thing is, the signal isn't clipped while going through each stage. All the information is there( i think that we demonstrated it well with the various RAs and SC tests), it get clipped when it gets output.
The easiest way is to take your classic file, #1. Crank TF 2 times. Then use Soft Clipping in a linear fashion, just as a compressor. To lower the signal 2 times. It should give the same FFB.
Maybe the same could be done with Scoops, but i'm not sure on this one. SK 100 and SR to 0,5. It should lower everything back.
Couple of questions .
If i set all RA's to 0 are they off ?
How do i use Soft Clipping in a linear fashion ?
Cheers .
If i set all RA's to 0 are they off? Cheers.
Yes they will be off
How do i use Soft Clipping in a linear fashion?
It's probably easier to understand the General Theory of Relativity.
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 10:16
Yep. And the ones that have exaggerated force levels will be even more exaggerated. Works both ways. :) But if you're fine with it, run with it. No need to change. Just explaining why some of us choose to normalize the in-car FFB.
That would be a Simple Fix:yes: I can Simply just Lower the Car Masters to set the Car How i need it to be... I have +99 or -99 room for adjustment but Because i set the FFB Mostly in the Gt3 Ruf which is pretty Much 1 of the most un-settled and Bumpy cars in the Game i have Not come across a car that feels too Harsh.
But i do get what your point is Now...as it has been said the Cars did Not Feel right i took it as the changes were being Made to make the Car Handle Better... But i see Now that your Changes per Car are about Managing wheel weight and Bump Feel/ Normalizing In Car FFB so that your wheel FFB is same across All Cars and Car Classes...Got it Thanx:yes:
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 10:28
Its funny you mention that. I'm not sure any of us have truly got all you can out of this. I think we are close but not quite there yet. I know I got a taste of some truly great ffb the other night but a little out of balance and too strong. The braking forces where soooo clear even the tire skipping as it tried for grip entering the corner. But the corning forces grew way to fast and the grip feel was off. I'm hoping its as simple as I think it might be to get right but I haven't had a chance t get back and try it yet.
Were working on it:yes: I think we are Very Very Close!!! Well that is unless Skoader, Tennenbaum or Poirqc come up with Some New Eye opening Break throughs that open the FFB Paradox up again:o
I Need to work on a way to Maximize My tweek FFB for all wheels... Im going to work on making a New set up that i can Easily Swap wheels so i can test My Gt2 and CSR Elite wheel.... Its just too Much work and time to keep taking the V2 off and setting it all back up on the Rs1... Maybe i will Hook them up to My old PVC set up....Hmmm???
That would be a Simple Fix:yes: I can Simply just Lower the Car Masters to set the Car How i need it to be... I have +99 or -99 room for adjustment but Because i set the FFB Mostly in the Gt3 Ruf which is pretty Much 1 of the most un-settled and Bumpy cars in the Game i have Not come across a car that feels too Harsh.
But i do get what your point is Now...as it has been said the Cars did Not Feel right i took it as the changes were being Made to make the Car Handle Better... But i see Now that your Changes per Car are about Managing wheel weight and Bump Feel/ Normalizing In Car FFB so that your wheel FFB is same across All Cars and Car Classes...Got it Thanx:yes:
That's what I was getting at before talking about grip levels with the cars. Wheel settings as well as car ffb settings can give the impression of having little to no grip which exaggerates itself on cold tires. Its not a cheat you should have less grip on cold tires but it should be able to feel it.
Yes they will be off
It's probably easier to understand the General Theory of Relativity.
Easy , just something i whipped up , a little light reading , lol http://www.space.com/17661-theory-general-relativity.html
IDK, I think there's always some loss of detail with compression. The higher the compression the more you lose. It's not extreme, and loss probably isn't the right word. But compressing that range means less differentiation, because it's working in a tighter more narrow space. You can see it in the telemetry. My guess is, some people could be fine with it (those with a higher degree of tactile sense) and some won't. That's what I was referring to when I said the cornering weight was less progressive, and I felt a slight loss of detail. It's probably still there, I just wasn't able to feel it at those levels.
That's the thing though we all know what turning down tf does. At some point you just start to lose too much feel especially the grip part. If you could get a clean not highly saturated signal could it work? With the extra headroom that tennebaum and skoader proved are we really taking full advantage of what the wheels can do? Just changing the scoop values although being slightly out of balance got me thinking is there a lot more left?
tennenbaum
01-06-2016, 11:00
tennenbaum if you ever come to N.Y. make sure you let me know!!! It would be such a honor to sit and drink more than a few beers with you!!!
i'll sure do :-)!
Oh I didn't take any offence myself. Everybody starts from same point just at different times. The FCM tool gave me similar results to what I had been using (morpwr's). Main difference was SR which was suggested at .41. Wheel was noticeably heavier when I adjusted these to try out. I need to do some more as I only used the wheel for a few laps then did the test.
Yes I haven't quite figured out whats going on there. I'm not sure if the ffb from pc to ps4 is exactly 1:1 at this point but don't know how id prove that without a pc setup. I had the same results when using it as calculated. Strong bump brake forces with a poor grip feel. Hopefully ill get some testing in tonight.
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 11:19
That's the thing though we all know what turning down tf does. At some point you just start to lose too much feel especially the grip part. If you could get a clean not highly saturated signal could it work? With the extra headroom that tennebaum and skoader proved are we really taking full advantage of what the wheels can do? Just changing the scoop values although being slightly out of balance got me thinking is there a lot more left?
A G27 can give enough steering feels, it just needs to happend at a slower pace. It's good to render tire deformation, grip, etc, but there's less room for some "icing", tastefull suggary icing! :D
morpwr...its This ^^^What what Poirqc said some wheels cant Process the signal when its sooo Fast... Not all wheel Process FFB signals at the same Refresh rate...So the Matter becomes how do you slow the signal down a bit...Smoothing, Damping, Scoops???
also some wheels are Not able to pick up the Full Frequency Range that otheres can... Sort of like a Dog whistle... when you blow it you wont hear it but Dogs will they can hear beyond Human Frequency pick up range...the wheels are the same....So this is a Hard ware issue as well in Both scenarios.
Edit: Can some one Make a Wheel Chart and List the Refresh Rates and Frequency Pick up Range for the Current wheels used???
This will Better Help us to Tweek for all wheels because we will then understand the Limits of the Hardware.
This will be Valuable info once we Know that certain wheels can Not expect to Feel ??? and can Tweek to Maximize FFB that it is capable of producing:yes:
To Maximize the FFB for All Wheels I think the Hardware Limitation issue is going to be very important to explore going forward.
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That's the thing though we all know what turning down tf does. At some point you just start to lose too much feel especially the grip part. If you could get a clean not highly saturated signal could it work? With the extra headroom that tennebaum and skoader proved are we really taking full advantage of what the wheels can do? Just changing the scoop values although being slightly out of balance got me thinking is there a lot more left?
Very true, but all wheels don't handle the compression the same. The CSW-v2 has more range/resolution than other wheels, so you might get away with a little more. But look at Tennebaum's graph comparison. That's what compression does. Sure you can pass more through, due to the invisible headroom, but eventually that detail is going to get squeezed into a narrower range. The more you squeeze into it, the harder it will be for you to feel the differentiation in forces. This is saturation. Whether you're using SC or RAC to pack it in tightly, the more you compress, the less differentiation there will be. There may be a happy medium, but it will be wheel dependent and will also vary by user. Of course, less differentiation doesn't mean loss of detail. It's just harder to feel those details. So, if you can still feel what you want/need to feel in the compressed range, then go for it. Some people like the feel of tighter, compressed FFB.
tennenbaum
01-06-2016, 12:21
Originally Posted by BigDad
How do i use Soft Clipping in a linear fashion?
konnos;It's probably easier to understand the General Theory of Relativity
I/O curves bowes the more convex the lower The SCHI value is. It bows strong with SCHI < 1, an overly strong with SHCI < 0.5. Instead the higher the SCHI values the more linear I/O gets. SCHI 10 or higher makes it quite linear. (Check out Skoaders graphs, without looking at them is very abstract.).
I/O curves bowes the more convex the lower The SCHI value is. It bows strong with SCHI < 1, an overly strong with SHCI < 0.5. Instead the higher the SCHI values the more linear I/O gets. SCHI 10 or higher makes it quite linear. (Check out Skoaders graphs, without looking at them is very abstract.).
Okaayyy , trying to get it .
I made some changes tonight and it feel very similar to my settings in my sig but with a definite more feel for the front tyres , brake lock ups and general understeer .
Would you or anyone mind looking at these numbers and telling me if im going the wrong way , math wise ?
TF 135
DDR 0.11
DRF 0.05
RA's all 0
SK 0.82 as per fcm
SR 0.27 as per fcm
SCHI 3.20
SCFO 1.80
SG 1.00
And still Jack Spades 66%
But with SCHI 10.00 and SCFO 2.00 it may be better ?
Am i just feeling things or do these numbers actually look like they could work ?
My wheel being quite new (bought for this game) but from a previous generation of wheels may not be able to feel some forces , so just trying to get everything into the ranges my wheel will register .
Thanks for any input you give .
RobboCod
01-06-2016, 13:28
Yes I haven't quite figured out whats going on there. I'm not sure if the ffb from pc to ps4 is exactly 1:1 at this point but don't know how id prove that without a pc setup. I had the same results when using it as calculated. Strong bump brake forces with a poor grip feel. Hopefully ill get some testing in tonight.
Definitely what I was feeling, I'll most likely just revert to what I was using before. The wheel weight from your setup was alot more comfortable for me. Did you alter your DRR from 019 recently?
Definitely what I was feeling, I'll most likely just revert to what I was using before. The wheel weight from your setup was alot more comfortable for me. Did you alter your DRR from 019 recently?
Yes it was weird the forces where so clear but too strong and slightly out of balance. I had a thought on that I'm going to try running the fcm in 1 step ffb masters around what I have been running and see what happens. Maybe just need a lower ffb master at this point and a little scoop tweaking. Yes to .016 for drr.
Very true, but all wheels don't handle the compression the same. The CSW-v2 has more range/resolution than other wheels, so you might get away with a little more. But look at Tennebaum's graph comparison. That's what compression does. Sure you can pass more through, due to the invisible headroom, but eventually that detail is going to get squeezed into a narrower range. The more you squeeze into it, the harder it will be for you to feel the differentiation in forces. This is saturation. Whether you're using SC or RAC to pack it in tightly, the more you compress, the less differentiation there will be. There may be a happy medium, but it will be wheel dependent and will also vary by user. Of course, less differentiation doesn't mean loss of detail. It's just harder to feel those details. So, if you can still feel what you want/need to feel in the compressed range, then go for it. Some people like the feel of tighter, compressed FFB.
I get all that. But if you could use sc to lower the volume like skoader did not actually as a compressor that changes things. That's the thing sc doesn't simply work one way it depends on where you put both numbers on how you use it.
morpwr...its This ^^^What what Poirqc said some wheels cant Process the signal when its sooo Fast... Not all wheel Process FFB signals at the same Refresh rate...So the Matter becomes how do you slow the signal down a bit...Smoothing, Damping, Scoops???
also some wheels are Not able to pick up the Full Frequency Range that otheres can... Sort of like a Dog whistle... when you blow it you wont hear it but Dogs will they can hear beyond Human Frequency pick up range...the wheels are the same....So this is a Hard ware issue as well in Both scenarios.
Edit: Can some one Make a Wheel Chart and List the Refresh Rates and Frequency Pick up Range for the Current wheels used???
This will Better Help us to Tweek for all wheels because we will then understand the Limits of the Hardware.
This will be Valuable info once we Know that certain wheels can Not expect to Feel ??? and can Tweek to Maximize FFB that it is capable of producing:yes:
To Maximize the FFB for All Wheels I think the Hardware Limitation issue is going to be very important to explore going forward.
Totally agree hardware limitations will decide what we can do in the end. But until we find out where our wheels stop being able to reproduce the forces how do we know? I know I haven't found that yet at a reasonable ffb setting.
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 15:02
That's the thing though we all know what turning down tf does. At some point you just start to lose too much feel especially the grip part. If you could get a clean not highly saturated signal could it work? With the extra headroom that tennebaum and skoader proved are we really taking full advantage of what the wheels can do? Just changing the scoop values although being slightly out of balance got me thinking is there a lot more left?
Totally agree hardware limitations will decide what we can do in the end. But until we find out where our wheels stop being able to reproduce the forces how do we know? I know I haven't found that yet at a reasonable ffb setting.
Thats the Question... When i get in from work i will look up wheel specs and see what i can come up with....
I get all that. But if you could use sc to lower the volume like skoader did not actually as a compressor that changes things. That's the thing sc doesn't simply work one way it depends on where you put both numbers on how you use it.
I tried a little variation of that this morning, based on what you said. I set TF=100, SCH=5.0, SCF=1.0. It actually felt pretty good. Definitely more saturated, but the detail was still there. Brake feel was there, just less pronounced. Cold tires felt grippier, but only proportionally so in comparison to warm tires, which also had more weight to them. If your cold tires were falling below your perceivable range before, something like that might help. In ten laps, I came within .500 of my best lap time, so I'm sure with a little more time to settle into it, I could match my best. When I went back to my original settings, they felt a little light, but after 2 or 3 laps, it felt normal again. I still think I prefer my old settings (TF=75, SCH/SCF=0), but I'm going to play around with the alternate some more tonight, checking my times on various tracks, cars, and with different rims.
Off topic, but check out this happy camper...LOL Your first win must feel AMAZING!
https://youtu.be/WEXN616nYow?t=3m47s
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 16:07
Hmmm... Im Starting to wonder about the whole Dynamic Loss/Gain thing??? I have Never Followed or tried to learn the whole Mathematical Tweek formula thing until lately... I have always followed the tweek by feel Feel Method... and if it Feels Good it is Good.
I say Tweek 1st get it feeling Good then Check your Nubers against the Math Formulas and stick with what feels best... The Scoops that the Calculator is Giving out are Very Close to My Scoops that i found by Feel... Im using Scoops 68/24. Trust what you Feel... If it feels Good it is Good:yes:
Side Note...Does any 1 else Monitor their wheel temp??? Since ive been using TF/RAC 75 the Feel is Not only Great but wheel temp Never gets above 90°F Thats very Good when Pcars launched My wheel yemp used to run 115°F to 125°F!!! I contacted Fanatec they said it was fine but for me i felt it was too Hot... But TF/RAC 75 85 to 90°F is as hot as it gets... The Side Fan Hardly Ever Comes on Now:yes:
Jack Spade
01-06-2016, 16:58
Now after several postings concerning re scaling with Soft Clip and before some people seem to think they are better off by
cranking up TF take a look at this compression and re scale setting comparison, although values are far apart but the final
output of compression and global feel basically is identical with either setting.
TF = 45 / 124
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 1.50
RA Bleed = 0.10
RA Clamp = 2.00
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0.8 / 2.20
SC Full = 0.7 / 1.90
PWM = -0.05
PWMS = 0.03
Steering Gain = 1.0
As reference down there 2 almost identical FCM Soft Clip curves. Note, value setting only in 0.10 steps.
1. Half 0.80 / Full 0.70 -> ratio = 1.14
2. Half 2.20 / Full 1.90 -> ratio = 1.16
The first setting (red) is based on TF 45... hereīs the re scaling calculation TF severely increased.
2.20 / 0.80 = 2.75 * TF 45 = TF 124 (rounded)
Here a different example of TF 100 re scaling -> lower... preserving the same compression effect and global feel.
Identical SC curves:
1. Half 3.00 / Full 1.50 -> ratio = 2 ...(TF 100)
2. Half 2.00 / Full 1.00 -> ratio = 2 ...(TF 66)
calculation: 3.0 / 2.0 = 1.5 -> TF 100 / 1.5 = TF 66
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I tried a little variation of that this morning, based on what you said. I set TF=100, SCH=5.0, SCF=1.0. It actually felt pretty good. Definitely more saturated, but the detail was still there. Brake feel was there, just less pronounced. Cold tires felt grippier, but only proportionally so in comparison to warm tires, which also had more weight to them. If your cold tires were falling below your perceivable range before, something like that might help. In ten laps, I came within .500 of my best lap time, so I'm sure with a little more time to settle into it, I could match my best. When I went back to my original settings, they felt a little light, but after 2 or 3 laps, it felt normal again. I still think I prefer my old settings (TF=75, SCH/SCF=0), but I'm going to play around with the alternate some more tonight, checking my times on various tracks, cars, and with different rims.
That's what I think we need to figure out. How to do that without the added saturation. Which isn't a huge difference just something I don't think either one of us would really want.
I came to similar conclusions, a while ago. I can't find the post, thanks to the wonderfull search feature of the forum!
RobboCod
01-06-2016, 17:13
Yes it was weird the forces where so clear but too strong and slightly out of balance. I had a thought on that I'm going to try running the fcm in 1 step ffb masters around what I have been running and see what happens. Maybe just need a lower ffb master at this point and a little scoop tweaking. Yes to .016 for drr.
Thanks alot. I got DRF and DRR mixed up actually. Is your DRF still .019? Sorry for the pestering!
That's what I think we need to figure out. How to do that without the added saturation. Which isn't a huge difference just something I don't think either one of us would really want.
That kind of compression seems like it would always lead to saturation. In fact, I think the saturation is actually what's creating the cold tire feel you're looking for. You might be able get that by raising TF alone, but raise it too much without SCH/SCF, and you'll probably start clipping.
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 17:54
Now after several postings concerning re scaling with Soft Clip and before some people seem to think they are better off by
cranking up TF take a look at this compression and re scale setting comparison, although values are far apart but the final
output of compression and global feel basically is identical with either setting.
TF = 45 / 124
DRR = 0.05
DRF = 0.02
RA Gain = 1.50
RA Bleed = 0.10
RA Clamp = 2.00
SK = 0.0
SR = 0.0
SC Half = 0.8 / 2.20
SC Full = 0.7 / 1.90
PWM = -0.05
PWMS = 0.03
Steering Gain = 1.0
As reference down there 2 almost identical FCM Soft Clip curves. Note, value setting only in 0.10 steps.
1. Half 0.80 / Full 0.70 -> ratio = 1.14
2. Half 2.20 / Full 1.90 -> ratio = 1.16
The first setting (red) is based on TF 45... hereīs the re scaling calculation TF severely increased.
2.20 / 0.80 = 2.75 * TF 45 = TF 124 (rounded)
Here a different example of TF 100 re scaling -> lower... preserving the same compression effect and global feel.
Identical SC curves:
1. Half 3.00 / Full 1.50 -> ratio = 2 ...(TF 100)
2. Half 2.00 / Full 1.00 -> ratio = 2 ...(TF 66)
calculation: 3.0 / 2.0 = 1.5 -> TF 100 / 1.5 = TF 66
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Can you put this in simple terms for those of us that have Not followed the Math formulas??? Just Looks like Numbers on a Chart to Me....LOL... I Need the simplified Break down.
Too Much Math to play a Game will Make My Head Hurt.
spacepadrille
01-06-2016, 18:01
Thanks alot. I got DRF and DRR mixed up actually. Is your DRF still .019? Sorry for the pestering!
He said it was now 0.016 few posts backward ;-)
That kind of compression seems like it would always lead to saturation. In fact, I think the saturation is actually what's creating the cold tire feel you're looking for. You might be able get that by raising TF alone, but raise it too much without SCH/SCF, and you'll probably start clipping.
Its actually the fact the scoops where calculated wrong before. Especially sr being way to low. Basically forcing all the low stuff high so you didn't have any room to feel subtle grip which really showed up on the pagani with cold tires. Its actually pretty nice with the correctly calculated scoops. Have you driven any of the paganis yet? If there is an issue it will show up with those.lol
RobboCod
01-06-2016, 18:22
He said it was now 0.016 few posts backward ;-)
Ah, must've missed that then :p. Cheers
Can you put this in simple terms for those of us that have Not followed the Math formulas??? Just Looks like Numbers on a Chart to Me....LOL... I Need the simplified Break down.
Too Much Math to play a Game will Make My Head Hurt.
Taking something low and boosting it or taking something high and compressing it, with the same target output will give the same feeling. The differences of feel would come from having a different scaling slope.
Its actually the fact the scoops where calculated wrong before. Especially sr being way to low. Basically forcing all the low stuff high so you didn't have any room to feel subtle grip which really showed up on the pagani with cold tires. Its actually pretty nice with the correctly calculated scoops. Have you driven any of the paganis yet? If there is an issue it will show up with those.lol
Oh, okay. Do you mean SK or SR? Also, I'm curious then, what's your reason for wanting to crank TF a little more?
I have tried those. The Zonda used to be a favorite in other games. For some reason I don't like it as much in PCars, though. But the new Huayra BC is pretty cool. I'm definitely planning to tune that one up.
Oh, okay. Do you mean SK or SR? Also, I'm curious then, what's your reason for wanting to crank TF a little more?
I have tried those. The Zonda used to be a favorite in other games. For some reason I don't like it as much in PCars, though. But the new Huayra BC is pretty cool. I'm definitely planning to tune that one up.
Yes sk and sr. Because I'm curious to see if there is way to leave the tf at 100 and scale it down to a usable level somewhere else. We all know what happens the more you turn that down everything sort of gets really muted. Would it be better? I don't know. But it would be an interesting experiment. Somewhere in here tennebaum related tf to our wheels resolution if that was true why would we want to turn that down?
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 19:42
Taking something low and boosting it or taking something high and compressing it, with the same target output will give the same feeling. The differences of feel would come from having a different scaling slope.
That Part i got... Im Looking at the Numbers...are those his tweek Numbers he is using...what are those his tweek settings Ũ???... what are his #'s based on... I will be home on the PC in a Min to try and Catch up... Its hard to get caught up on all the info from my phone...LOL
Yes sk and sr. Because I'm curious to see if there is way to leave the tf at 100 and scale it down to a usable level somewhere else. We all know what happens the more you turn that down everything sort of gets really muted. Would it be better? I don't know. But it would be an interesting experiment. Somewhere in here tennebaum related tf to our wheels resolution if that was true why would we want to turn that down?
IDK, I'm running it at 75, and will probably try it a 80 later tonight. I tried it briefly this morning, and it was fine. No clipping. I just didn't have time to assess the feel. Somewhere between 85 and 100 is where the clipping probably starts. Given how far from clipping 80 was, I'm thinking probably starts above 85. The thing is, though... When I tried TF=100 with no SCH/SCF, there was definitely clipping, but when it wasn't clipping, I can't say there was any huge improvement in detail or feel. The wheel was just heavier, way more saturated. Which makes me think we might be getting circular with this train of thought, because I'm pretty sure that was one of the reasons I lowered TF in the first place, long ago. But the real question is, at least IMO, is.. If TF=100 is saturated without Soft Clipping, then how can you add Soft Clipping (compression) without increasing the already present saturation?
IDK, I'm running it at 75, and will probably try it a 80 later tonight. I tried it briefly this morning, and it was fine. No clipping. I just didn't have time to assess the feel. Somewhere between 85 and 100 is where the clipping probably starts. Given how far from clipping 80 was, I'm thinking probably starts above 85. The thing is, though... When I tried TF=100 with no SCH/SCF, there was definitely clipping, but when it wasn't clipping, I can't say there was any huge improvement in detail or feel. The wheel was just heavier, way more saturated. Which makes me think we might be getting circular with this train of thought, because I'm pretty sure that was one of the reasons I lowered TF in the first place, long ago. But the real question is, at least IMO, is.. If TF=100 is saturated without Soft Clipping, then how can you add Soft Clipping (compression) without increasing the already present saturation?
That is the reason we lowered it and you bring up valid points. I'm pretty sure skoader is holding out on us.;)
Koza_Nostra
01-06-2016, 20:35
Hello all!
I've been away on holiday for 2 weeks and you guys added 30 more pages, damn! :) Took me 2 hours to catch up today.
Today I decided to do some FCM and Wheelcheck testing and have a little play around with it.
I noticed few things..
1. When you do Linear Test on Wheelcheck and import data to FCM you get different numbers compared to FCM linear test.
2. Seems like doing tests on cold or warm wheel does have a difference (see my first graph, it was done on cold wheel, and the very last graph on warm)
3. FFB at TM control panel does affect the shape of the curve, as expected. On TX seems like FFB 100 is a better option (always run 100FFB in game as it is a default for TX)
Didn't expect Cold vs Warm wheel have such a different effect, as you can see in the very first and last graph.
Also not sure which is better to go buy, Wheelcheck linear test and then import to FCM or FCM linear test and then calculate values from there. Either way, they are pretty close.
Not much findings here, but I thought I will do this comparison for you guys, just to see if it raises any new questions :)
Also not many TX users here, so just thought might be interesting for you guys to see how other wheels behave.
Any insight about the graphs are welcome :)
EDIT: The picture looks quite small, sorry.. Zoom in if you want to see the numbers, my bad.
233907
tennenbaum
01-06-2016, 20:49
Taking something low and boosting it or taking something high and compressing it, with the same target output will give the same feeling. The differences of feel would come from having a different scaling slope.
poirqc, haha, Joda speaks... i had to read it twice... :applause:
Koza_Nostra
01-06-2016, 20:51
I may have to do this again as the picture quality is really low..
poirqc, haha, Joda speaks... i had to read it twice... :applause:
Well, the more i read it, the less sense it makes! :D
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 21:23
Taking something low and boosting it or taking something high and compressing it, with the same target output will give the same feeling. The differences of feel would come from having a different scaling slope.
poirqc, haha, Joda speaks... i had to read it twice... :applause:
LOL he was talking my language too!!! I have figured out many many ways to get the same feel from playing with the settings!!! the combinations to get the same feel is vast!!! to say the least... it really boils down to what part of the FFB system is being used...
Im still trying to get into the math tweek thing... LOL yes im very good with math too...I'm just lost as to where they are getting their #'s from... I guess its their tweek #'s then they x them by??? i have to look at the JS classic #'s to see if thats it... i haven't looked at his tweek #'s since this thread opened...LOL i will have a look so i can better clue myself in.
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 21:55
My thought is that while the calculators can be a very useful tool it may Not be the best tool in every case... example:some one who is just starting Sim racing and has not yet developed a Preferred FFB Feel would use the calculator and be fine with it... once you are already a sim racer you know what feel you like and then you become picky about what racing game you will play Ex: after Pcars some will never touch Forza again but then there are some that will never play Pcars because they so love the feel of Forza which 1 is better depends on the gamer and both sides will argue fiercely about it.
My point of view is that we all know the FFB system... I say leave the calculators alone and spend 1 full week tuning by Feel and see what you come up with... The FFB calculators are good but will Never be a exact Science because Nothing can Replicate or Replace the sense of touch that we have!!! a single touch activates sooo many senses that No calculator could calculate it because no one has ever been able to program that amount of information accurately into a calculator yet and i doubt it can or will ever be done.
Armed with the knowledge that we all now have about the FFB system when was the last time you sat and tweeked by feel alone no calculator??? Many of you seem to be losing your way based on the calculator results...scoops/Linearity etc... Go back to basics for a week and see what you can create then check your work against the calculator and chose what feels best. just my thoughts.
My thought is that while the calculators can be a very useful tool it may Not be the best tool in every case... example:some one who is just starting Sim racing and has not yet developed a Preferred FFB Feel would use the calculator and be fine with it... once you are already a sim racer you know what feel you like and then you become picky about what racing game you will play Ex: after Pcars some will never touch Forza again but then there are some that will never play Pcars because they so love the feel of Forza which 1 is better depends on the gamer and both sides will argue fiercely about it.
My point of view is that we all know the FFB system... I say leave the calculators alone and spend 1 full week tuning by Feel and see what you come up with... The FFB calculators are good but will Never be a exact Science because Nothing can Replicate or Replace the sense of touch that we have!!! a single touch activates sooo many senses that No calculator could calculate it because no one has ever been able to program that amount of information accurately into a calculator yet and i doubt it can or will ever be done.
Armed with the knowledge that we all now have about the FFB system when was the last time you sat and tweeked by feel alone no calculator??? Many of you seem to be losing your way based on the calculator results...scoops/Linearity etc... Go back to basics for a week and see what you can create then check your work against the calculator and chose what feels best. just my thoughts.
The tools only provide a starting point. You still have to test and fine tune by feel. But without the tools, you're starting point is nothing more than a shot in the dark, so it can take a lot longer to zero in on the sweet spot. The tools can get you in range quicker. Also, it's pretty hard to judge linearity by feel alone.
Edit: I actually wish I had used the FCM tool sooner. It would have saved me a lot of time in the rabbit hole. :)
GrimeyDog
01-06-2016, 22:45
The tools only provide a starting point. You still have to test and fine tune by feel. But without the tools, you're starting point is nothing more than a shot in the dark, so it can take a lot longer to zero in on the sweet spot. The tools can get you in range quicker. Also, it's pretty hard to judge linearity by feel alone.
Edit: I actually wish I had used the FCM tool sooner. It would have saved me a lot of time in the rabbit hole. :)
just a suggestion because alot of people are going in circles using them... in the beginning then i believe they would help and cut the tweek time... but with the level of Knowledge and Understanding that we now have about the FFB system hand tweeking should be much easier than using the tools at this point... the end result is always going to be fine tune by feel anyway... then once you have your feel right Measure the tool against your hand tweek Not your tweek against the tool and judge what feels better...people have to learn to trust their own natural instinct again.
Yes sk and sr. Because I'm curious to see if there is way to leave the tf at 100 and scale it down to a usable level somewhere else. We all know what happens the more you turn that down everything sort of gets really muted. Would it be better? I don't know. But it would be an interesting experiment. Somewhere in here tennebaum related tf to our wheels resolution if that was true why would we want to turn that down?
So I tried TF=80 and 85, with no SCH/SCF. TF=85 didn't clip with my globals, but it was pretty close, and I didn't like the way the waveform was looking. There was also more saturation than I like in the wheel. TF=80 feels pretty good. The wheel is a little firmer, and the detail/range is still there. I'm keeping going to keep it there for a week, and then retry my old setting TF=75 for comparison. I didn't do anymore testing after that. I'm just not into it. I like my settings, and don't feel like getting back into all the trial and error of testing. Changing the Scoops was easy--ran the FCM, read the curve, and made the adjustments. There's wasn't really any back and forth in the menus. I just don't have the patience for that anymore. I went back to racing. That was way more fun. :)
gotdirt410sprintcar
02-06-2016, 06:10
just a suggestion because alot of people are going in circles using them... in the beginning then i believe they would help and cut the tweek time... but with the level of Knowledge and Understanding that we now have about the FFB system hand tweeking should be much easier than using the tools at this point... the end result is always going to be fine tune by feel anyway... then once you have your feel right Measure the tool against your hand tweek Not your tweek against the tool and judge what feels better...people have to learn to trust their own natural instinct again.
I agree with all this But you should really get your scoops deadzone right special for a new guy it will be easier to find tune and cut the time in half so you do need some tools.
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 08:07
My thought is that while the calculators can be a very useful tool it may Not be the best tool in every case... example:some one who is just starting Sim racing and has not yet developed a Preferred FFB Feel would use the calculator and be fine with it... once you are already a sim racer you know what feel you like and then you become picky about what racing game you will play Ex: after Pcars some will never touch Forza again but then there are some that will never play Pcars because they so love the feel of Forza which 1 is better depends on the gamer and both sides will argue fiercely about it.
My point of view is that we all know the FFB system... I say leave the calculators alone and spend 1 full week tuning by Feel and see what you come up with... The FFB calculators are good but will Never be a exact Science because Nothing can Replicate or Replace the sense of touch that we have!!! a single touch activates sooo many senses that No calculator could calculate it because no one has ever been able to program that amount of information accurately into a calculator yet and i doubt it can or will ever be done.
Armed with the knowledge that we all now have about the FFB system when was the last time you sat and tweeked by feel alone no calculator??? Many of you seem to be losing your way based on the calculator results...scoops/Linearity etc... Go back to basics for a week and see what you can create then check your work against the calculator and chose what feels best. just my thoughts.
And I say leave FFB tweaking alone and start racing ;)
You're right that FCM shouldn't be taken for granted and a lot has to be done by feel, but Tools are there to give some visual representation of what some settings do to the curve or FFB system. I had my FFB set-up for months now with only some minor changes. I will be honest, myself being a Kart Racer for over 10 years, I don't really need HUDs, Tools.. As you would say, I exactly go by what I feel, because I know what to look for, I take my RL racing experience and apply that to the game and I know what Feedback I want to receive from my steering wheel. I have only shared these graphs just to show my findings with different FFB Power settings and a TX wheel, as most here are on V2, T300 etc...
Since Patch 9.0 and 10.0, I haven't really played with FFB that much anymore as I'm happy with it and the Tire Model has been stable, so no need to keep going in circles. Still interesting to read and see how people here come up with different ways to pretty much achieve the same results.
Anyway, good day :)
just a suggestion because alot of people are going in circles using them... in the beginning then i believe they would help and cut the tweek time... but with the level of Knowledge and Understanding that we now have about the FFB system hand tweeking should be much easier than using the tools at this point... the end result is always going to be fine tune by feel anyway... then once you have your feel right Measure the tool against your hand tweek Not your tweek against the tool and judge what feels better...people have to learn to trust their own natural instinct again.
The fmc is a great tool to get you pointed in the right direction with scoops. Youd spend countless hours trying to find the right combination without it. In the end yes you have to tweak it to what you want to feel or at least feel is correct to yourself but its way easier when you use the tools as a starting point.
So I tried TF=80 and 85, with no SCH/SCF. TF=85 didn't clip with my globals, but it was pretty close, and I didn't like the way the waveform was looking. There was also more saturation than I like in the wheel. TF=80 feels pretty good. The wheel is a little firmer, and the detail/range is still there. I'm keeping going to keep it there for a week, and then retry my old setting TF=75 for comparison. I didn't do anymore testing after that. I'm just not into it. I like my settings, and don't feel like getting back into all the trial and error of testing. Changing the Scoops was easy--ran the FCM, read the curve, and made the adjustments. There's wasn't really any back and forth in the menus. I just don't have the patience for that anymore. I went back to racing. That was way more fun. :)
I gave it an hour last night and ended up exactly where I have been. I couldn't find one thing that improved the feel without giving up too much somewhere else. So I did the same as you got back to racing. New car and new track equals lots of fun!!
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