View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
I gave it an hour last night and ended up exactly where I have been. I couldn't find one thing that improved the feel without giving up too much somewhere else. So I did the same as you got back to racing. New car and new track equals lots of fun!!
Yeah... At this point. I'm all for following and contributing to the conversation. I'll even try some new things, if the suggestions are specific and don't take forever to flush out. :) But I honestly don't think there's anything else left, at least nothing that will make a huge difference/improvement to my current feel. I had a few online races yesterday. One was in a car I hadn't driven since my reinstall, and I had no setup. They were forcing the car, and I almost backed out. At the last minute, I decided to just go ahead, throw my FFB in, and run with the default tune. There was less than ten minutes in quali when I got it. I made P2 in 3 or 4 laps, but then had a shit start (due to a few ping pong drivers) and ended up in 6th, dead last. It was only a 6 lap race, but I still managed to climb back up and finish P2, right on the leader's arse. A couple more laps, and I'm pretty sure I would have forced an error. My FFB is fine. I could feel everything I needed to feel to drive the default setup and still be able to push, overtake, and defend. What else do I need? It's time to enjoy the game. :)
As for using tools. I think the real benefit is time savings. Once you understand the graphs, you quickly start to see the relation between how the curve looks and how your FFB feels. Once you understand that, you can save a crap load of back and forth time, because you can visually adjust your FFB (Scoops, DRR, and Soft Clipping) without having to go back and forth in the menus, session to session, which takes forever. You puzzle it out in the tool, develop a few options to test, and then go back into the game to try the feel and fine tune. But, using the tool, you can literally come up with a dozen options to test in-game in 30 minutes or less. With PCars' load times and FFB loading fails, it would take hours to accomplish the same.
GrimeyDog
02-06-2016, 11:45
One thing i Noticed that I used to over look are the Friction Rings around the Tires when watching the Graph... Those Frictin rings can explain the small Spike Lines in the FFB Graph when the Corner is relatively smooth but the Line is still active... Its showing Friction/Tire Slip.
Yeah... At this point. I'm all for following and contributing to the conversation. I'll even try some new things, if the suggestions are specific and don't take forever to flush out. :) But I honestly don't think there's anything else left, at least nothing that will make a huge difference/improvement to my current feel. I had a few online races yesterday. One was in a car I hadn't driven since my reinstall, and I had no setup. They were forcing the car, and I almost backed out. At the last minute, I decided to just go ahead, throw my FFB in, and run with the default tune. There was less than ten minutes in quali when I got it. I made P2 in 3 or 4 laps, but then had a shit start (due to a few ping pong drivers) and ended up in 6th, dead last. It was only a 6 lap race, but I still managed to climb back up and finish P2, right on the leader's arse. A couple more laps, and I'm pretty sure I would have forced an error. My FFB is fine. I could feel everything I needed to feel to drive the default setup and still be able to push, overtake, and defend. What else do I need? It's time to enjoy the game. :)
As for using tools. I think the real benefit is time savings. Once you understand the graphs, you quickly start to see the relation between how the curve looks and how your FFB feels. Once you understand that, you can save a crap load of back and forth time, because you can visually adjust your FFB (Scoops, DRR, and Soft Clipping) without having to go back and forth in the menus, session to session, which takes forever. You puzzle it out in the tool, develop a few options to test, and then go back into the game to try the feel and fine tune. But, using the tool, you can literally come up with a dozen options to test in-game in 30 minutes or less. With PCars' load times and FFB loading fails, it would take hours to accomplish the same.
At this point I may play with sc a little as it looks like I could make my wheel a little more linear with it according to the fcm. But that will be nothing more than lets see if it works and back to racing. Just waiting for dd wheels now.:D
At this point I may play with sc a little as it looks like I could make my wheel a little more linear with it according to the fcm. But that will be nothing more than lets see if it works and back to racing. Just waiting for dd wheels now.:D
That's basically all I did. Getting a linear curve really made difference.
I hope Fanatec releases one soon.
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 12:52
Do you have any idea how much that new DD wheel is going to cost?
Do you have any idea how much that new DD wheel is going to cost?
Nothing concrete, but the rumor is it'll be priced somewhere between their TX/T300 and the Fanatec CSW-v2, more than likely closer to the CSW-v2.
GrimeyDog
02-06-2016, 13:16
Do you have any idea how much that new DD wheel is going to cost?
Start Saving Now...I would Guess any where between $699.00 to $899.00 pedals Not included because they have the Eco system thing Now like Fanatec....
Im Pretty sure it will cost a Few Hundred $$$ Less than a Accuforce but what will be the Quality Difference if any is the Question...the TM DD wheel is a Blessing in disquise as it will Surely bring the Price of All DD wheels Down a bit. Question is How Long will it be before Fanatec Launches a New wheel Line up??? as long as the Current wheel Rim works with Fanatecs New wheel line up i will stick with Fanatec so i dont have to Buy everything all over again. This sim Racing is Getting Costly... LOL
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 13:20
Ok, so it's quite affordable. I mean I would be prepared to pay £500 give or take, but if it comes without pedals then probably that's another ~£200. Yes indeed, SIM racing can get costly. If I didn't have my wedding soon and other things, I would invest so much more, not just money wise, but also actually getting a proper PC and room set-up, with all the buttkickers etc.. At the moment Playseat is the best I can do :) I'm glad I have understanding fiancé, she knows I love racing, so she tolerates me also SIM racing at home :) Hopefully I will never have to choose between SIM racing and her LOL
Ok, so it's quite affordable. I mean I would be prepared to pay £500 give or take, but if it comes without pedals then probably that's another ~£200. Yes indeed, SIM racing can get costly. If I didn't have my wedding soon and other things, I would invest so much more, not just money wise, but also actually getting a proper PC and room set-up, with all the buttkickers etc.. At the moment Playseat is the best I can do :) I'm glad I have understanding fiancé, she knows I love racing, so she tolerates me also SIM racing at home :) Hopefully I will never have to choose between SIM racing and her LOL
wedding present?;) congratulations too!
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 13:33
wedding present?;) congratulations too!
Thank you!
Haha, very good idea morpwr. I may have to suggest that :)
Ok, so it's quite affordable. I mean I would be prepared to pay £500 give or take, but if it comes without pedals then probably that's another ~£200. Yes indeed, SIM racing can get costly. If I didn't have my wedding soon and other things, I would invest so much more, not just money wise, but also actually getting a proper PC and room set-up, with all the buttkickers etc.. At the moment Playseat is the best I can do :) I'm glad I have understanding fiancé, she knows I love racing, so she tolerates me also SIM racing at home :) Hopefully I will never have to choose between SIM racing and her LOL
I doubt you'll have to buy new pedals. If it doesn't work with TM's existing pedal set, then they are being really, really stupid...LOL
I also don't think it will be priced above the CSW-v2 price point, or not very far if it is. That also wouldn't make a lot of sense, because I don't think they're limiting their sales goals to just the console market. And, as nice as it is to have a good wheel, most sim racers agree that having good pedals are far more important than the wheel when it comes to track consistency. The T3PA Pros are decent, but not as good as the CSP-v3s. If TM prices their new wheel higher than the CSW-v2, then I think quite a few people are going to be wondering whether or not to just go with the CSW-v2 to get the better pedal set. This is TMs entry into DD, so the hardware probably isn't going to be nearly as good/strong as the Accuforce and others. So it still remains to be seen as to whether or not the wheel feel will be a lot better than the CSW-v2, a little better, or roughly the same. The initial beta reviews are going to make all the difference and may influence the launch price.
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 14:51
I doubt you'll have to buy new pedals. If it doesn't work with TM's existing pedal set, then they are being really, really stupid...LOL
I also don't think it will be priced above the CSW-v2 price point, or not very far if it is. That also wouldn't make a lot of sense, because I don't think they're limiting their sales goals to just the console market. And, as nice as it is to have a good wheel, most sim racers agree that having good pedals are far more important than the wheel when it comes to track consistency. The T3PA Pros are decent, but not as good as the CSP-v3s. If TM prices their new wheel higher than the CSW-v2, then I think quite a few people are going to be wondering whether or not to just go with the CSW-v2 to get the better pedal set. This is TMs entry into DD, so the hardware probably isn't going to be nearly as good/strong as the Accuforce and others. So it still remains to be seen as to whether or not the wheel feel will be a lot better than the CSW-v2, a little better, or roughly the same. The initial beta reviews are going to make all the difference and may influence the launch price.
Ok, well if it would support T3PA pedals, then that would be ideal. I bought T3PA recently and now just wish I went straight with the PROs, I thought I would save few £££. Although they are better than standard TX pedals. My next upgrade is 599XX wheel and then I will take it from there.
Let's wait and see what the reviews will be like for the new DD wheel.
Ok, well if it would support T3PA pedals, then that would be ideal. I bought T3PA recently and now just wish I went straight with the PROs, I thought I would save few £££. Although they are better than standard TX pedals. My next upgrade is 599XX wheel and then I will take it from there.
Let's wait and see what the reviews will be like for the new DD wheel.
Youll love the 599 wheel and the pros with a load cell are awesome. I wish more companies would make pedals you can mount either way. I hate floor mounted pedals with a passion.lol
GrimeyDog
02-06-2016, 15:11
Ok, so it's quite affordable. I mean I would be prepared to pay £500 give or take, but if it comes without pedals then probably that's another ~£200. Yes indeed, SIM racing can get costly. If I didn't have my wedding soon and other things, I would invest so much more, not just money wise, but also actually getting a proper PC and room set-up, with all the buttkickers etc.. At the moment Playseat is the best I can do :) I'm glad I have understanding fiancé, she knows I love racing, so she tolerates me also SIM racing at home :) Hopefully I will never have to choose between SIM racing and her LOL
My Wife is the Same... She Loves that i Love to Sim.Race and Fully supports My Sim Racing addiction... LOL... It Keeps Me in the House... She often watches Me Sim Race and Cheers when i Win!!!
You Better Get the Main parts of your Sim Gear Now... Once you get Married that $1500.00 that you plan to blow on a Sim set up... She going to have Plans for it...LOL
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 15:16
Youll love the 599 wheel and the pros with a load cell are awesome. I wish more companies would make pedals you can mount either way. I hate floor mounted pedals with a passion.lol
Yeah I found 599 quite good deal, £110 on eBay with a delivery. And would PROs fit my Playseat Challenge for the upright position?
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 15:18
My Wife is the Same... She Loves that i Love to Sim.Race and Fully supports My Sim Racing addiction... LOL... It Keeps Me in the House... She often watches Me Sim Race and Cheers when i Win!!!
You Better Get the Main parts of your Sim Gear Now... Once you get Married that $1500.00 that you plan to blow on a Sim set up... She going to have Plans for it...LOL
Same here, she watches me sometimes and says how impressed she is LOL. She even has a go herself sometimes, but it doesn't usually go very well :)
Yeah I see what you mean about buying things after the wedding it won't be an easy conversation :) , as other priorities will come in kids, house etc... But hopefully I will make enough money to keep both of us happy :)
I guess I can always sell the gear I have and make some money back..
GrimeyDog
02-06-2016, 15:34
Koza Nostra"Yeah I see what you mean about buying things after the wedding it won't be an easy conversation , as other priorities will come in kids, house etc... But hopefully I will make enough"
My Wife Had Me order the Rseat RS1 for My aniversary Gift:yes: Get the Main most important parts Good wheel/Pedals first then just keep adding on... thats how i do it...also Congrats to you and the Future wife.
Koza_Nostra
02-06-2016, 15:35
Yeah I see what you mean about buying things after the wedding it won't be an easy conversation , as other priorities will come in kids, house etc... But hopefully I will make enough
My Wife Had Me order the Rseat RS1 for My aniversary Gift:yes: Get the Main most important parts Good wheel/Pedals first then just keep adding on... thats how i do it...also Congrate to you and the Future wife.
Thank you very much! 2 months to go :)
Yeah I found 599 quite good deal, £110 on eBay with a delivery. And would PROs fit my Playseat Challenge for the upright position?
I don't know if they would. I had to weld to tabs to my playseat to use it like that. Not a huge deal.
I just remembered only 5 more days till ac. Should be interesting getting to compare the two plus you cant have too many good racing games. (hoping its good anyways) Never mind forgot it was delayed again until august.:(
I just remembered only 5 more days till ac. Should be interesting getting to compare the two plus you cant have too many good racing games. (hoping its good anyways) Never mind forgot it was delayed again until august.:(
I started reading that and was like, "Holy crap! How did I forget about that?" Then got to end, and was like, "Oh, yeah... That's why." LOL
I hope they don't push it again.
Koza_Nostra
03-06-2016, 08:02
I started reading that and was like, "Holy crap! How did I forget about that?" Then got to end, and was like, "Oh, yeah... That's why." LOL
I hope they don't push it again.
Same here, he got me too :)
Quite a few games to look forward to this summer/fall
- MotoGP16: Valentino Rossi
- AC
- F1 2016 (which sounds promising in years)
- SEGA Motorsport Manager 2016
- Mafia 3
Good times ahead :)
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 10:44
Now that I Have Finally found My Pcars Final FFB Solution I am Now Finally able to Enjoy Dirt Rally!!!
any 1 have a Pcars Racing League thats Good that i can join... Im Ready to do some seriouse Racing.
Same here, he got me too :)
Quite a few games to look forward to this summer/fall
- MotoGP16: Valentino Rossi
- AC
- F1 2016 (which sounds promising in years)
- SEGA Motorsport Manager 2016
- Mafia 3
Good times ahead :)
I walked by a calender got all excited for a few minutes and then remembered they pushed it back again.
Now that I Have Finally found My Pcars Final FFB Solution I am Now Finally able to Enjoy Dirt Rally!!!
any 1 have a Pcars Racing League thats Good that i can join... Im Ready to do some seriouse Racing.
I just cant get into that game all it does is make me want to play pcars more.lol It has potential but I think they missed it by a bit.
inthebagbud
03-06-2016, 11:07
Now that I Have Finally found My Pcars Final FFB Solution I am Now Finally able to Enjoy Dirt Rally!!! .
There is a Dirt thread but I would be interested in your CSW wheel/in game settings for Dirt as rally cross on xbox is unplayable with Fanatec.
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 11:35
There is a Dirt thread but I would be interested in your CSW wheel/in game settings for Dirt as rally cross on xbox is unplayable with Fanatec.
I will post them in there when i get off work... I been Balancing out the FFB settings between Dirt, Snow/Ice and Tarmac sooo Far sooo Good... Th Patch to fix Rally X comes out in a week or so... I think it will be Good then... But the self aligning torque being Balanced is the Key... I have that set to 50.
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 11:39
I just cant get into that game all it does is make me want to play pcars more.lol It has potential but I think they missed it by a bit.
Its a Good change of Pace to Mix things up a bit... Once the FFB is set right its Very Challenging its Not about beating other cars its all about beating the Course while Racing the Clock... It demands that you are Very focused Most Mistakes are Fatal!!!
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 11:49
Side Note... So I have been looking into getting a different seat for the RS1... I Noticed a Few people use the "Bride" brand seat... it can Recline so yes i figured id look it up and get 1... There is a Bride seat Dealer 5 Min from My House... Well long story short its $1,800.00!!! WTF People have $1,800.00 Sim Racing Seats on their Rigs... WOW... I Must be Doing Something Wrong!!! Im Not Spending that on a Sim Racing Seat... WOW!!!
Side Not... So I have been looking into getting a different seat for the RS1... I Noticed a Few people use the "Bride" brand seat... it can Recline so yes i figured id look it up and get 1... There is la Bride seat Dealer 5 Min from My House... Well long story short its $1,800.00!!! WTF People have $1,800.00 Sim Racing Seats on their Rigs... WOW... I Must be Doing Something Wrong!!! Im Not Spending that on a Sim Racing Seat... WOW!!!
Holy crap that's a lot of money! The seat on the yours isn't adjustable? The one on mine does. Its actually nice for getting the seating position just right. Pretty comfortable too compared to the playseat. I don't know about their new ones but the old ones weren't the most comfortable.
Koza_Nostra
03-06-2016, 12:15
Its a Good change of Pace to Mix things up a bit... Once the FFB is set right its Very Challenging its Not about beating other cars its all about beating the Course while Racing the Clock... It demands that you are Very focused Most Mistakes are Fatal!!!
Exactly, it's about beating other cars but the Stage itself, and once you master the stage beating other cars will come natural anyway :) I like Dirt Rally a lot, I'm a fan of WRC so it's nice to have something different not just a Circuit racing.
Btw, I also set Self Aligning Torque to around 40-50 depending on the Road surface, on Ice you need a little more while on gravel you need a little less.
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 13:01
The seat it self is Not Reclineable i can adjust it by Changing the Mounting position...Whike it is Reasonably comfortable... They added better/Extra padding...it will Not Recline on the Fly with the pull of a lever Its a 1 piece Fiberglass Fixed pisition seat... It would be Nice to add a Reclinable seat option to the RS1 but Not for $1,800.00!!!
I just cant get into that game all it does is make me want to play pcars more.lol It has potential but I think they missed it by a bit.
Every time I think about it, I watch a few gameplay vids, and think... Nah. The graphics look great, and I'm sure it's a lot of fun, but Rally racing just doesn't interest me, kind of like drifting. Cool to watch IRL, though. But in the game, I think that navigator yapping constantly would get on my nerves...LOL
Holy crap that's a lot of money! The seat on the yours isn't adjustable? The one on mine does. Its actually nice for getting the seating position just right. Pretty comfortable too compared to the playseat. I don't know about their new ones but the old ones weren't the most comfortable.
The seat it self is Not Reclineable i can adjust it by Changing the Mounting position...Whike it is Reasonably comfortable... They added better/Extra padding...it will Not Recline on the Fly with the pull of a lever Its a 1 piece Fiberglass Fixed pisition seat... It would be Nice to add a Reclinable seat option to the RS1 but Not for $1,800.00!!!
I like having a reclining seat. It's one of the reasons I picked the GT Omega over a couple others. You can simulate a more laid back extended position for open wheel, and then bring it forward a bit for other classes. GT Omega's new RS9 seat is pretty cool, and way less than $1,800. :) I would have gotten the rig with the RS9 seat, but when I purchased my the U.S. distributor's website was wonky and, depending on how you navigated to the product, it didn't always show the RS9 option. :(
I like having a reclining seat. It's one of the reasons I picked the GT Omega over a couple others. You can simulate a more laid back extended position for open wheel, and then bring it forward a bit for other classes. GT Omega's new RS9 seat is pretty cool, and way less than $1,800. :) I would have gotten the rig with the RS9 seat, but when I purchased my the U.S. distributor's website was wonky and, depending on how you navigated to the product, it didn't always show the RS9 option. :(
Yes I wish the site was better. I would have done the same thing.
Yes I wish the site was better. I would have done the same thing.
Damn! That happened to you, too? The site used to suck. The dropped down menu didn't show the RS9 model cockpit--looked liked the RS6 was all there was. But if you clicked on the "Products" label and not the drop down option, they were both listed. The site's been redesigned now, so you can only get there one way. I don't even understand why they offer the RS6 version. It's only $30 less. Why would you not get the RS9?
Damn! That happened to you, too? The site used to suck. The dropped down menu didn't show the RS9 model cockpit--looked liked the RS6 was all there was. But if you clicked on the "Products" label and not the drop down option, they were both listed. The site's been redesigned now, so you can only get there one way. I don't even understand why they offer the RS6 version. It's only $30 less. Why would you not get the RS9?
Exactly. It wasn't by choice I thought there was only one option in the states. In Europe you get a mat with it too. Not a big deal but would have been nice.
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 14:16
For $299.00 I will order the whole RS9 Rig just to get the Seat:yes: Maybe i will do just that... Then i will Have a 2nd Rig to Hook up My other wheels on!!! I already Have a Spare 40" in Samsung Tv that i can use for a 2nd set up... I currently use it to watch TV/PC in the Man Kave... I can just go back to using My 27" Samsung for TV/PC.... this Maybe a Good investment then i will have 2 Rigs 1 Room... I been looking for a option that i can Hook up My other wheels without tearing My Main set up down every time i want to test a Different wheel...its just too Many wires takes too Much time just for a few min of testing... I will look more into it when i get off work:yes:
For $299.00 I will order the whole RS9 Rig just to get the Seat:yes: Maybe i will do just that... Then i will Have a 2nd Rig to Hook up My other wheels on!!! I already Have a Spare 40" in Samsung Tv that i can use for a 2nd set up... I currently use it to watch TV/PC in the Man Kave... I can just go back to using My 27" Samsung for TV/PC.... this Maybe a Good investment then i will have 2 Rigs 1 Room... I been looking for a option that i can Hook up My other wheels without tearing My Main set up down every time i want to test a Different wheel...its just too Many wires takes too Much time just for a few min of testing... I will look more into it when i get off work:yes:
That's 299 Euro. It's $429 USD. http://usa.gtomegaracing.com/art-racing-simulator-cockpit/art-cockpits
You can get the seat for $180. http://usa.gtomegaracing.com/racing-seats
You could have gotten two of these for what you paid for that Rseat.
Exactly. It wasn't by choice I thought there was only one option in the states. In Europe you get a mat with it too. Not a big deal but would have been nice.
I thought about ordering the RS9 seat. It's not expensive. But RS6 is fine, and I don't have any issues with it. I think the RS9 is a little wider in the shoulders and has a little more padding, though.
For $299.00 I will order the whole RS9 Rig just to get the Seat:yes: Maybe i will do just that... Then i will Have a 2nd Rig to Hook up My other wheels on!!! I already Have a Spare 40" in Samsung Tv that i can use for a 2nd set up... I currently use it to watch TV/PC in the Man Kave... I can just go back to using My 27" Samsung for TV/PC.... this Maybe a Good investment then i will have 2 Rigs 1 Room... I been looking for a option that i can Hook up My other wheels without tearing My Main set up down every time i want to test a Different wheel...its just too Many wires takes too Much time just for a few min of testing... I will look more into it when i get off work:yes:
I love mine and don't think for the price you can go wrong. That's the European price.lol But for 179 I may just order the rs9 seat.
I love mine and don't think for the price you can go wrong. That's the European price.lol But for 179 I may just order the rs9 seat.
Same here. You really can't at that price. And it's pretty damn sturdy, too. I also like that you can easily extend the frame in addition to being able to slide the seat back and forth. I'm only 5' 7", but a couple of my friends are over 6' 2". I can open the frame for them and still not get any flex, and then close it back up for my girlfriend, who's only 5' 1".
I got the caster wheels for it, which raised it up a couple inches and makes it really easy to just fold the seat forward and roll the whole rig into a corner out of the way. I'm going to buy the monitor attachment soon. Gonna upgrade the living room TV to a curved ultra, and then mount my current 55" to the racing rig. It's not triple screens, but a 55" that close, will allow for a pretty decent FOV. :)
Yes it was weird the forces where so clear but too strong and slightly out of balance. I had a thought on that I'm going to try running the fcm in 1 step ffb masters around what I have been running and see what happens. Maybe just need a lower ffb master at this point and a little scoop tweaking. Yes to .016 for drr.
DRR or DRF?
Same here. You really can't at that price. And it's pretty damn sturdy, too. I also like that you can easily extend the frame in addition to being able to slide the seat back and forth. I'm only 5' 7", but a couple of my friends are over 6' 2". I can open the frame for them and still not get any flex, and then close it back up for my girlfriend, who's only 5' 1".
I got the caster wheels for it, which raised it up a couple inches and makes it really easy to just fold the seat forward and roll the whole rig into a corner out of the way. I'm going to buy the monitor attachment soon. Gonna upgrade the living room TV to a curved ultra, and then mount my current 55" to the racing rig. It's not triple screens, but a 55" that close, will allow for a pretty decent FOV. :)
I'm 6'4" so that becomes important. I was really impressed at how sturdy it was and would definitely recommend it. Only thing I did was bolt down the foot pedal platform so it didn't rock. Took about a half hour . Just went to value hardware got some nylon spacers and ground them to match the angle when I drilled the hole straight down thru the platform into the steel brace.
DRR or DRF?
Sorry drf is .016
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 15:53
That's 299 Euro. It's $429 USD. http://usa.gtomegaracing.com/art-racing-simulator-cockpit/art-cockpits
You can get the seat for $180. http://usa.gtomegaracing.com/racing-seats
You could have gotten two of these for what you paid for that Rseat.
I thought about ordering the RS9 seat. It's not expensive. But RS6 is fine, and I don't have any issues with it. I think the RS9 is a little wider in the shoulders and has a little more padding, though.
True... I looked at these for a while... But I had been eyeing the RS1 since it first came out.. I was being Cheap waiting for a price drop and Finally broke down and ordered it... The wife said i should have it for anniversary Gift so... Ok why Not??? I could have long had it but was just being plain old Cheap... LOL... I love the fact that its basicly a 1 solid piece Chassie i didnt want any bend or Flex... Im 6'1 245lbs... Not fat either LOL. I wanted to Make sure it would last a long time...Its a Very Very Solid Buid!!! No Bend No Flex!!!
I already Have wheels for it CSR Elite, 911 Gt2 and the Tx448 i can use that Rig for testing when Pcars 2 is Released the FFB testing saga will continue!!! LOL also for when i have company over we can Race... the RS9 is Looking Really Good for the Price point!!! i plan to have it when or before they release the 4k PS4.
Im going to have to Charge My friends a admission fee to get into My Man Kave then.... Nope i dont let Any 1 touch My Current set up Not even to Test it... Unless they are experienced sim Racers... I hate people Yanking on the wheel and just stomping the Pedals
I'm 6'4" so that becomes important. I was really impressed at how sturdy it was and would definitely recommend it. Only thing I did was bolt down the foot pedal platform so it didn't rock. Took about a half hour . Just went to value hardware got some nylon spacers and ground them to match the angle when I drilled the hole straight down thru the platform into the steel brace.
Yeah...the pedal deck had a little too much play in it. I got some heavy duty strap bands and used four to secure the base, instead of the two medium weight bands they provided. But there's still about 5mm of flex in the deck board itself, because of my pedal position. I mounted mine pretty high (drilled my own holes), which puts more force forward of the underlying support bar. They could have used a stronger material for the pedal deck. If they had, I'd have zero flex. I've been thinking about doing something similar to what you did, but first I'm gonna look into having a custom plate made to mount over their deck board. If I can get one made for a decent price, sandwiching a metal plate between the pedals and the deck, should leave 0 flex in the board.
Yeah...the pedal deck had a little too much play in it. I got some heavy duty strap bands and used four to secure the base, instead of the two medium weight bands they provided. But there's still about 5mm of flex in the deck board itself, because of my pedal position. I mounted mine pretty high (drilled my own holes), which puts more force forward of the underlying support bar. They could have used a stronger material for the pedal deck. If they had, I'd have zero flex. I've been thinking about doing something similar to what you did, but first I'm gonna look into having a custom plate made to mount over their deck board. If I can get one made for a decent price, sandwiching a metal plate between the pedals and the deck, should leave 0 flex in the board.
Do it out of a piece of aluminum. Like 1/8th inch should be plenty and easy to work with and easier to drill. You could cut it with a jig saw or a circular saw. Plus if you wanted to be really cool you could polish it. I don't know about where you live but you could probably find it home depot or look for a sheet metal place. The could probably just cut it for you to.
True... I looked at these for a while... But I had been eyeing the RS1 since it first came out.. I was being Cheap waiting for a price drop and Finally broke down and ordered it... The wife said i should have it for anniversary Gift so... Ok why Not??? I could have long had it but was just being plain old Cheap... LOL... I love the fact that its basicly a 1 solid piece Chassie i didnt want any bend or Flex... Im 6'1 245lbs... Not fat either LOL. I wanted to Make sure it would last a long time...Its a Very Very Solid Buid!!! No Bend No Flex!!!
I already Have wheels for it CSR Elite, 911 Gt2 and the Tx448 i can use that Rig for testing when Pcars 2 is Released the FFB testing saga will continue!!! LOL also for when i have company over we can Race... the RS9 is Looking Really Good for the Price point!!! i plan to have it when or before they release the 4k PS4.
Im going to have to Charge My friends a admission fee to get into My Man Kave then.... Nope i dont let Any 1 touch My Current set up Not even to Test it... Unless they are experienced sim Racers... I hate people Yanking on the wheel and just stomping the Pedals
There's really no flex in the GT frame. The pedal deck is the only weak spot, but it's easily fixed, so the pros outweigh that one con for me.
Dude... I run a few laps for example, and then give people a briefing before they get in the rig for the first time. It basically boils down to this: You pull on my wheel, stomp my pedals, or do anything I consider stupid, you're DQ'd. FOREVER! Grab and beer and have a seat on the couch. You're now a spectator... LOL
Do it out of a piece of aluminum. Like 1/8th inch should be plenty and easy to work with and easier to drill. You could cut it with a jig saw or a circular saw. Plus if you wanted to be really cool you could polish it. I don't know about where you live but you could probably find it home depot or look for a sheet metal place. The could probably just cut it for you to.
That's what I was thinking. I just call everything metal...LOL. I wondering about Home Depot. That was going to be my first stop.
spacepadrille
03-06-2016, 19:54
I just cant get into that game all it does is make me want to play pcars more.lol It has potential but I think they missed it by a bit.
Hi morpwr ! I think you must let a second chance to DiRT. The only way to love it is to go immersive for a few days, I mean not to play PCars, only DiRT. Then slowly you feel the game better and better, and it is a breath of fresh air and fury after PCars ;-)
Now I mostly play PCars, but during one month I played only DiRT and it was sooo good. And last but not least, it has improved a lot my driving skills, my laps are far better now. After Dirt, Pcars seems... slow :-) You have time to think, to concentrate. PCars and DiRT are two worlds that goes well together in a sim racer life...
GrimeyDog
03-06-2016, 20:25
Aaaah Haaaa!!! I just found Bride Seats on Ebay for 1/4th of the Price... Nope i dont care its probably Not original equipment and Made from Fiberglass ... But Really Who Needs a True $1,800.00 Carbon Fiber Racing Seat for their sim Rig??? Everything else is the same!!! at $400.00 Its Cheaper than Sparco and Most other Racing Seats and Reclines!!! Im Placing My Order!!! WooooHoooo!!!
Fight-Test
04-06-2016, 13:50
Aaaah Haaaa!!! I just found Bride Seats on Ebay for 1/4th of the Price... Nope i dont care its probably Not original equipment and Made from Fiberglass ... But Really Who Needs a True $1,800.00 Carbon Fiber Racing Seat for their sim Rig??? Everything else is the same!!! at $400.00 Its Cheaper than Sparco and Most other Racing Seats and Reclines!!! Im Placing My Order!!! WooooHoooo!!!
Don't forget that ricmotech has reclinable seats with slider. Fiberglass back, with 3 point harness attachment ability. $210 bucks, they are made for sim racing.
GrimeyDog
05-06-2016, 02:40
Ok... Lets Have it...Latest Break throughs. Whos testing what... any New Theory's or Discoverys??? Lets Tak about it.
Not testing, but I'm trying to figure out how the AI was able to do 20 laps on one set of softs at Dubai when I had the tire wear set to x4. I had to pit around 8-10 laps in. The AI cars didn't start pitting until L20, and some didn't pit for a couple more. It was in career mode, and it made me wonder if the AI's pits were scripted. I was told they weren't, and maybe the variance between me and the AI was driving style. But that doesn't explain it. Doing 20 laps at x4 is basically an 80 lap stint at normal wear. That's insane.
GrimeyDog
05-06-2016, 14:37
LOL!!! also AI is also Beyond Reality Fast in the Rain!!! There are threads on these issues and its Not going to be fixed for this Game either... I just keep AI at 85% and that seems to Balance out the AI Cheats.
LOL!!! also AI is also Beyond Reality Fast in the Rain!!! There are threads on these issues and its Not going to be fixed for this Game either... I just keep AI at 85% and that seems to Balance out the AI Cheats.
I agree. I find 85 to be a good setting for career. Some races you totally dominate, but others you fight just to stay in the points standings. In the end, it makes for a decent season.
Gamer82678
06-06-2016, 15:56
Just wanted to share latest analysis from Force Feedback Calculator 2.0.3 utilized with the help of Force Curve Modifier 1.2 with it's own internal linear wheel test and files imported from WheelCheck 1.72 linear wheel test.
Also, latest FFB settings at this shared YouTube link: https://youtu.be/wWNVrwNLVHk
One of my hardest career races so far included in shared vid also.
FFB is sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat ! 8^)
Love you guys here ! 8^)
Forgot to mention. In Thrustmaster Control Panel when testing various strength of Force Gain.
Constant: 100
Periodic: 100
Spring: 0
Damper: 0
Auto centering: By wheel: 0
Jezza819
06-06-2016, 19:48
Ok... Lets Have it...Latest Break throughs. Whos testing what... any New Theory's or Discoverys??? Lets Tak about it.
I'm on the disabled list. My Fanatec base was sent off for repairs last Wednesday. So I'm hoping I'm only on the 15 day DL and not the 45 day DL. :D
I'm using my Thrustmaster TX only for Forza for now. I don't even want to try and change everything over for PCars.
Just wanted to share latest analysis from Force Feedback Calculator 2.0.3 utilized with the help of Force Curve Modifier 1.2 with it's own internal linear wheel test and files imported from WheelCheck 1.72 linear wheel test.
Also, latest FFB settings at this shared YouTube link: https://youtu.be/wWNVrwNLVHk
One of my hardest career races so far included in shared vid also.
FFB is sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat ! 8^)
Love you guys here ! 8^)
Force Feedback calculator?
I've looked but can't find this. Where is this?
spacepadrille
06-06-2016, 23:42
Hi, I've just posted that in a other thread, but maybe it's useful to paste it here...
"I did some tests with wheelcheck (last version) and FCM 1.2. All .csv where interpreted by FCM 1.2 to make the linear regression.
To be serious, I made 7 tests with each method. The results are : better curve (more linear and better R2 like 0.9976) with wheelcheck, and as result SK 0.79, SR 0.39, DRR 0.08. With FCM 1.2, seven tests too, and as result a less good curve ("s" shape once corrected), a quite bad R2 (0.98xx), and SK 0.83, SR 0.48, DRR 0.10.
I made 20 laps with each result, and even if both are good to drive, the FCM results are far better and informative. I must admit the laptimes are similar, but I guess it's only because I know well the track (glenn short, 1.074x). I will reproduce this test with a less known track, but I'm pretty sure that the FCM datas are really better for me and my wheel."
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 00:34
hmmm.. ive been on the XB1 Pcars all afternoon...The PS4 FFB is definitly smoother!!! i dont think i had the GM FFB set right... i had it at 30 but 25 maybe needed...The XB1 FFB is beastly strong to say the least!!! Even with the V2 in auto FFB mode GM FFB 100 is sooo strong you can barely Move the wheel!!! at 50 its a tad better but still too strong 30 was better but 25 maybe the solution...Also i Noticed that the XB1 and the V2 there is 0 dead zone so i had to reduce the dead zone fall off to 0 and it felt better... the XB1 has a very harsh centering spring effect compared to the PS4.
Gamer82678
07-06-2016, 00:57
Force Feedback calculator?
I've looked but can't find this. Where is this?
Look here BigDad: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
Some very good information and reference ! 8^) :cool:
Force Feedback Calculator 2.0.3 is within Google Sheets ! 8^) :cool:
With the help of tools Force Feedback Calculator 2.0.3, Force Curve Modifier 1.2 and WheelCheck 1.72 you can hone in on tweaking your FFB sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat ! 8^) :cool:
Hi, I've just posted that in a other thread, but maybe it's useful to paste it here...
"I did some tests with wheelcheck (last version) and FCM 1.2. All .csv where interpreted by FCM 1.2 to make the linear regression.
To be serious, I made 7 tests with each method. The results are : better curve (more linear and better R2 like 0.9976) with wheelcheck, and as result SK 0.79, SR 0.39, DRR 0.08. With FCM 1.2, seven tests too, and as result a less good curve ("s" shape once corrected), a quite bad R2 (0.98xx), and SK 0.83, SR 0.48, DRR 0.10.
I made 20 laps with each result, and even if both are good to drive, the FCM results are far better and informative. I must admit the laptimes are similar, but I guess it's only because I know well the track (glenn short, 1.074x). I will reproduce this test with a less known track, but I'm pretty sure that the FCM datas are really better for me and my wheel."
Ive been playing with that for the last couple days. Did you leave periodic on? You need to or it doesn't calculate right. I actually found a post from I racing that showed how to setup the test for the g27 and the t500. Mine all came up in the .99 somethings with the fcm. It just doesn't align with the ffb master for some reason. 75 in the fcm test works really well with 68 in game. I think somebody else found that pc and xbox don't match either. I ran multiple tests with the fcm numbers aligned with the ffb numbers used in the test and they were all the same. Just a heavy wheel without much detail.
Gamer82678
07-06-2016, 01:18
LOL!!! also AI is also Beyond Reality Fast in the Rain!!! There are threads on these issues and its Not going to be fixed for this Game either... I just keep AI at 85% and that seems to Balance out the AI Cheats.
Yeah ! Sometimes those AI cats don't even have to pit for rain tires in the rain ! :rolleyes: :confused:
Gamer82678
07-06-2016, 01:44
Forgot to mention. In Thrustmaster Control Panel when testing various strength of Force Gain for linearity.
Constant: 100
Periodic: 100
Spring: 0
Damper: 0
Auto centering: By wheel: 0
Gamer82678
07-06-2016, 02:24
Ive been playing with that for the last couple days. Did you leave periodic on? You need to or it doesn't calculate right. I actually found a post from I racing that showed how to setup the test for the g27 and the t500. Mine all came up in the .99 somethings with the fcm. It just doesn't align with the ffb master for some reason. 75 in the fcm test works really well with 68 in game. I think somebody else found that pc and xbox don't match either. I ran multiple tests with the fcm numbers aligned with the ffb numbers used in the test and they were all the same. Just a heavy wheel without much detail.
Interesting ! :rolleyes:
I don't know anything about the T500. I have the T300 which is supposed to have weaker overall torque but, a bit more linear and sensitive to FFB effects.
The results I shared here recently of analysis in FFB Calculator 2.0.3 were a bit more influenced by the internal linear wheel test within FCM 1.2 vs importing WheelCheck 1.72 linear test results. Although both results were very very close. I ran 8 test with each.
Hopefully this Thrustmaster Benchmark comparison of wheels uploads properly.
inthebagbud
07-06-2016, 05:33
hmmm.. ive been on the XB1 Pcars all afternoon...The PS4 FFB is definitly smoother!!! i dont think i had the GM FFB set right... i had it at 30 but 25 maybe needed...The XB1 FFB is beastly strong to say the least!!! Even with the V2 in auto FFB mode GM FFB 100 is sooo strong you can barely Move the wheel!!! at 50 its a tad better but still too strong 30 was better but 25 maybe the solution...Also i Noticed that the XB1 and the V2 there is 0 dead zone so i had to reduce the dead zone fall off to 0 and it felt better... the XB1 has a very harsh centering spring effect compared to the PS4.
Yes finally somebody else who doesn't think the xbox/fanatec is the best I feel so much better it's not just me but also kinda sad that it seems to be the xbox version.
The lack of smoothness and the centering spring effect can pretty much ruin some cars and I sometimes just run default in car settings to try and smooth out some of the roughness
Now you really make me want to get the PS console :hopelessness:
Hi guys
Amazing amount of work and effort with all that is posted in this thread. As most of it still goes over my head, can anyone point me in the right direction, given the below?
- I'm on PS4 with T300RS
- I'm not sure what setup I started on, but I think it was one of Jack Spade's setups
- I found with FFB and Tire Force at 100, semi-regular use of the wheel was enough to cause me quite bad pain in my wrists
- I'm hoping to take away a lot of the strength of the FFB, but obviously want to keep as much subtlety as I can
- I've played with dropping the FFB and TF down and it's ok...but I'm still not happy with it
Basically, just wondering if anyone else with the T300 has had a similar experience and found a good setup with reduced wheel strength? If not, any of the experts here care to point me in the right direction?
Cheers
Picko
Hi guys
Amazing amount of work and effort with all that is posted in this thread. As most of it still goes over my head, can anyone point me in the right direction, given the below?
- I'm on PS4 with T300RS
- I'm not sure what setup I started on, but I think it was one of Jack Spade's setups
- I found with FFB and Tire Force at 100, semi-regular use of the wheel was enough to cause me quite bad pain in my wrists
- I'm hoping to take away a lot of the strength of the FFB, but obviously want to keep as much subtlety as I can
- I've played with dropping the FFB and TF down and it's ok...but I'm still not happy with it
Basically, just wondering if anyone else with the T300 has had a similar experience and found a good setup with reduced wheel strength? If not, any of the experts here care to point me in the right direction?
Cheers
Picko
Yes first it is not recommended to run the t300 past 75ffb and you really shouldn't need to. Try my settings on the oscarolim site. I have changed the scoop values to 48sr and 85 sk and drr .11 ,drf .016 . These should give you a good starting point.
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 11:05
Hi guys
Amazing amount of work and effort with all that is posted in this thread. As most of it still goes over my head, can anyone point me in the right direction, given the below?
- I'm on PS4 with T300RS
- I'm not sure what setup I started on, but I think it was one of Jack Spade's setups
- I found with FFB and Tire Force at 100, semi-regular use of the wheel was enough to cause me quite bad pain in my wrists
- I'm hoping to take away a lot of the strength of the FFB, but obviously want to keep as much subtlety as I can
- I've played with dropping the FFB and TF down and it's ok...but I'm still not happy with it
Basically, just wondering if anyone else with the T300 has had a similar experience and found a good setup with reduced wheel strength? If not, any of the experts here care to point me in the right direction?
Cheers
Picko
Try My settings... They are posted on first page in a PDF...Very easy to adjust plug in the settings and use the Car Masters to find your sweet spot per Car... The PDF Has Car Masters 100 but you can set them to where Feels best for you...Start with Car Masters 50 if you want Reduced FFB Power.
Game Master FFB 100 is Not Needed... Go with the TM Recomendation of 75 and you can Reduce that to 50 if you find the FFB is stronger than you Like... But Start with My settings and Reducing the Car Masters to 50 to get a feel for a Good Starting point.
Interesting ! :rolleyes:
I don't know anything about the T500. I have the T300 which is supposed to have weaker overall torque but, a bit more linear and sensitive to FFB effects.
The results I shared here recently of analysis in FFB Calculator 2.0.3 were a bit more influenced by the internal linear wheel test within FCM 1.2 vs importing WheelCheck 1.72 linear test results. Although both results were very very close. I ran 8 test with each.
Hopefully this Thrustmaster Benchmark comparison of wheels uploads properly.
I have a t300 also. The t500 has the same control panel settings as the t300. It was just nice to find what was supposed to be left on when running the linearity test for thrustmaster wheels. I pretty much already knew that from testing but nice to have it confirmed.
Yes finally somebody else who doesn't think the xbox/fanatec is the best I feel so much better it's not just me but also kinda sad that it seems to be the xbox version.
The lack of smoothness and the centering spring effect can pretty much ruin some cars and I sometimes just run default in car settings to try and smooth out some of the roughness
Now you really make me want to get the PS console :hopelessness:
Its like that with the thrustmaster wheels too. I cannot just plug in my settings on my sons xbone and get the same feel. I think the xbone is going to need its own setup to get the same feel.
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 11:18
Yes finally somebody else who doesn't think the xbox/fanatec is the best I feel so much better it's not just me but also kinda sad that it seems to be the xbox version.
The lack of smoothness and the centering spring effect can pretty much ruin some cars and I sometimes just run default in car settings to try and smooth out some of the roughness
Now you really make me want to get the PS console :hopelessness:
Yes the XBox 1 FFB is Definitly stronger than the PS4!!!
The centering Spring on XB1 is Much Harsher than the PS4... The PS4 FFB is Much Smoother than XB1 the XB1 is just Harsh and abrupt FFB but its Mostly at or around the wheel centering point.... I think i will Reduce the GM FFB to 25 and Possibly add some smoothing to reduce the Harshness of the centering spring... Also the XB1 feels like it has a Smaller Dead Zone around wheel center I had to Reduce DRR/DRF to 0.00 but this may Need to be Changed... I was trying to adjust to the Harsh centering effect the XB1 has... I may even have to add Dead zone to it.... Shrugggs
Yes finally somebody else who doesn't think the xbox/fanatec is the best I feel so much better it's not just me but also kinda sad that it seems to be the xbox version.
The lack of smoothness and the centering spring effect can pretty much ruin some cars and I sometimes just run default in car settings to try and smooth out some of the roughness
Now you really make me want to get the PS console :hopelessness:
I don't think it's just Fanatec/Xb1 combo. I felt the same way about the Xb1 when I was using my TX, compared to the T300 on PS4. The Xb1 FFB just doesn't produce the same detail to me.
Hi guys
Amazing amount of work and effort with all that is posted in this thread. As most of it still goes over my head, can anyone point me in the right direction, given the below?
- I'm on PS4 with T300RS
- I'm not sure what setup I started on, but I think it was one of Jack Spade's setups
- I found with FFB and Tire Force at 100, semi-regular use of the wheel was enough to cause me quite bad pain in my wrists
- I'm hoping to take away a lot of the strength of the FFB, but obviously want to keep as much subtlety as I can
- I've played with dropping the FFB and TF down and it's ok...but I'm still not happy with it
Basically, just wondering if anyone else with the T300 has had a similar experience and found a good setup with reduced wheel strength? If not, any of the experts here care to point me in the right direction?
Cheers
Picko
If you were using Jack Spade's globals, then you shouldn't run TF/FF at 100/100. In fact, I'm not sure why you'd do that with any settings, without a lot of soft clipping. If you want to give Jack's settings another try, you should reduce the gains and multipliers to use them with the T300 (FF, TF, and SG). I'd also recommend running the FCM tool to find your recommended Scoop settings. You can adjust them to taste after, but the tool will put you in the right ballpark to start. If you don't want to run the tool, then check out other T300 users, and see if you can spot any common values being used for Scoops. IMO, this is one of the first things you want to get set to your liking, because it has a big affect on the overall feel and level of detail.
Also, my settings are in my sig. I started with Jack's settings, but have made significant changes and reduced quite a bit of weight with the lower SG. You should be able to convert these to the T300, just set TF/FF to your liking, and leave Per Wheel Movement and Per Wheel Movement Squared at the SMS defaults. My PWM/PWM2 values are CSW-v2 specific, used to reduce drag on the Fanatec CSW-v2.
Once you get something going, if you still have questions, post your current settings along with them. That makes it easier to see what's going on and give you more specific feedback.
Thanks for the replies guys, looks like I've got some playing around to do tonight! :)
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 13:43
I have No Clue as to why the Recommended GM FFB 100 for Console Has Not been Amended:confused:.... Its Not Recommended by Wheel Manufacturers and its been tested and Proven Many Times that GM FFB 100 is Not Needed... Shrugggs... its also the Last part of the FFB chain and will Not show in the FFB Graph but the Over Kill Power of GM FFB 100 can be Felt in the wheel or will Cause at the wheel Clipping in Most cases.
inthebagbud
07-06-2016, 13:50
I don't think it's just Fanatec/Xb1 combo. I felt the same way about the Xb1 when I was using my TX, compared to the T300 on PS4. The Xb1 FFB just doesn't produce the same detail to me.
It looks like it is an xbox issue which is not good :( but is there not a newer PS on the way soon......honest I have been really good Santa:D
Yes the XBox 1 FFB is Definitly stronger than the PS4!!!
The centering Spring on XB1 is Much Harsher than the PS4... The PS4 FFB is Much Smoother than XB1 the XB1 is just Harsh and abrupt FFB but its Mostly at or around the wheel centering point.... I think i will Reduce the GM FFB to 25 and Possibly add some smoothing to reduce the Harshness of the centering spring... Also the XB1 feels like it has a Smaller Dead Zone around wheel center I had to Reduce DRR/DRF to 0.00 but this may Need to be Changed... I was trying to adjust to the Harsh centering effect the XB1 has... I may even have to add Dead zone to it.... Shrugggs
Grimey if you have time I would be interested in any settings you come to , although I don't use your in car settings ffb does have to be down around 25/30 and doesn't make a difference whether this is by wheel or in game. I find the spring and harshness really of putting in some cars and that's why I have resorted to default car and the skoader SCHI/O as this smooths out the harshness somewhat.
I also find that running with or without RA makes no difference and have this and Scoops turned off at present.
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 14:15
It looks like it is an xbox issue which is not good :( but is there not a newer PS on the way soon......honest I have been really good Santa:D
Grimey if you have time I would be interested in any settings you come to , although I don't use your in car settings ffb does have to be down around 25/30 and doesn't make a difference whether this is by wheel or in game. I find the spring and harshness really of putting in some cars and that's why I have resorted to default car and the skoader SCHI/O as this smooths out the harshness somewhat.
I also find that running with or without RA makes no difference and have this and Scoops turned off at present.
I will Do More Testing when i get off work... The Feel of the XBox 1 Really had Me put Off yesterday... at 1 time as long as the GM FFB was set Correctly PS4 and XB1 were almost Identical FFB wise...i will Lower GM FFB and post what i come up with.... Its Mostly the Harsh Center spring the XB1 Has but also Not that the XB1 FFB has always Lacked the Fidelity and Subtle Feel that the PS4 has... Now that i have My FFB Refined and Balanced this Fact is Now Very Noticable.
Koza_Nostra
07-06-2016, 14:28
Not sure why you guys get Harsh FFB on xbox, but my FFB is sweet as ever. I will post my settings later for TX, I found a sweet spot (even tho I already thought I found one before), and could not stop playing couple of nights before.
Also, my TX default is on 100 GM FFB and it's fine, I just lower TF to 70-75. I used to play opposite TF>FFB, but lately I prefer TF<FFB. I will post my settings later, Grimey you could try them and see what you think as you have TX and Xbox1.
Jezza819
07-06-2016, 14:56
Yes finally somebody else who doesn't think the xbox/fanatec is the best I feel so much better it's not just me but also kinda sad that it seems to be the xbox version.
The lack of smoothness and the centering spring effect can pretty much ruin some cars and I sometimes just run default in car settings to try and smooth out some of the roughness
Now you really make me want to get the PS console :hopelessness:
I don't have the resources or the space available to get a PS4 to benchmark the XB1 against. I only run default setups. I've done that since day one so that might be why the XB1 feels so good to me.
Its like that with the thrustmaster wheels too. I cannot just plug in my settings on my sons xbone and get the same feel. I think the xbone is going to need its own setup to get the same feel.
XB1 definitely needs it's own settings. I was having so much trouble trying to use PS4 and PC settings. Some were just annoying but others were downright horrible. But Grimey had actual numbers used on a XB1 and once I put those in, everything fell into place.
I have No Clue as to why the Recommended GM FFB 100 for Console Has Not been Amended:confused:.... Its Not Recommended by Wheel Manufacturers and its been tested and Proven Many Times that GM FFB 100 is Not Needed... Shrugggs... its also the Last part of the FFB chain and will Not show in the FFB Graph but the Over Kill Power of GM FFB 100 can be Felt in the wheel or will Cause at the wheel Clipping in Most cases.
Not sure why you guys get Harsh FFB on xbox, but my FFB is sweet as ever. I will post my settings later for TX, I found a sweet spot (even tho I already thought I found one before), and could not stop playing couple of nights before.
Also, my TX default is on 100 GM FFB and it's fine, I just lower TF to 70-75. I used to play opposite TF>FFB, but lately I prefer TF<FFB. I will post my settings later, Grimey you could try them and see what you think as you have TX and Xbox1.
There's nothing wrong with using GM FF=100, as long as you balance it elsewhere in the chain. We're always talking about how the FFB system can be configured multiple ways and how that's the beauty of it. So, this is just another instance of that flexibility. Running both TF and FF at 100 is where problems starts. The recommendation to run lower FF from Thrustmaster was no doubt in response to the issues people were having. But those issues were back in the beginning, when people were trying to run FF and TF higher than they should, and console players not realizing that some PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation.
I ran FF/TF at 100/65 with my T300 and never had one single overheating issue. I currently run FF/TF at 100/80 on my CSW-v2, and even after hours of continuous play, don't have any heating issues. FF=100 in itself is not a problem. You have to look at the global and in-car setting as whole. With the right balance, FF=100 is no more problematic than running TF=100 with in-car Masters at 100. Most people that run FF=100, run lower TF and in-car Masters to balance things out. When it comes to the gain and multiplier scales, it's always about balance across the chain, not one single scale.
The reason some people run FF=100 is because there's a difference in the feel of the FFB depending on the FF/TF balance. A higher FF feels different than higher TF. Personally, I've always preferred the feel of a higher FF. A higher TF balance makes the wheel feel more spongy/rubbery to me, and my lap times always suffer when I try to balance it that way. Obviously, it works for a lot of people, though. As does FF=100. Either way is fine. :)
Also, Koza... It's really hard to understand the difference until you've tried it on both consoles. I was very happy with my Xb1 FFB when PCars first released. It wasn't until I tried it on PS4 that I actually understood. Same with PC. The FFB is better than both Xb1 and PS4 on PC. It's not a big deal, though. PCars feel great on all platforms when compared to other titles on that platform. Cross platform differences are pretty common, and expected, for obvious reasons.
Koza_Nostra
07-06-2016, 15:28
There's nothing wrong with using GM FF=100, as long as you balance it elsewhere in the chain. We're always talking about how the FFB system can be configured multiple ways and how that's the beauty of it. So, this is just another instance of that flexibility. Running both TF and FF at 100 is where problems starts. The recommendation to run lower FF from Thrustmaster was no doubt in response to the issues people were having. But those issues were back in the beginning, when people were trying to run FF and TF higher than they should, and console players not realizing that some PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation.
I ran FF/TF at 100/65 with my T300 and never had one single overheating issue. I currently run FF/TF at 100/80 on my CSW-v2, and even after hours of continuous play, don't have any heating issues. FF=100 in itself is not a problem. You have to look at the global and in-car setting as whole. With the right balance, FF=100 is no more problematic than running TF=100 with in-car Masters at 100. Most people that run FF=100, run lower TF and in-car Masters to balance things out. When it comes to the gain and multiplier scales, it's always about balance across the chain, not one single scale.
The reason some people run FF=100 is because there's a difference in the feel of the FFB depending on the FF/TF balance. A higher FF feels different than higher TF. Personally, I've always preferred the feel of a higher FF. A higher TF balance makes the wheel feel more spongy/rubbery to me, and my lap times always suffer when I try to balance it that way. Obviously, it works for a lot of people, though. As does FF=100. Either way is fine. :)
Also, Koza... It's really hard to understand the difference until you've tried it on both consoles. I was very happy with my Xb1 FFB when PCars first released. It wasn't until I tried it on PS4 that I actually understood. Same with PC. The FFB is better than both Xb1 and PS4 on PC. It's not a big deal, though. PCars feel great on all platforms when compared to other titles on that platform. Cross platform differences are pretty common, and expected, for obvious reasons.
Yeah I agree :)
I prefer higher FF too, feels better for me, although at the beginning when the game came out I was also running higher TF, but as the patches came out I swapped back to higher FF.
And yes, I guess I won't know the differences until I try Pcars on PC or PS4. I may have opportunity to try it on PS4 soon, I just need to find time to go to my friends house. Will be interesting to see and compare :)
But yeah, you're totally right about PCars FFB system being so broad, that it can be adjusted in many different ways and there is no right or wrong really.
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 16:05
There's nothing wrong with using GM FF=100, as long as you balance it elsewhere in the chain. We're always talking about how the FFB system can be configured multiple ways and how that's the beauty of it. So, this is just another instance of that flexibility. Running both TF and FF at 100 is where problems starts. The recommendation to run lower FF from Thrustmaster was no doubt in response to the issues people were having. But those issues were back in the beginning, when people were trying to run FF and TF higher than they should, and console players not realizing that some PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation.
I ran FF/TF at 100/65 with my T300 and never had one single overheating issue. I currently run FF/TF at 100/80 on my CSW-v2, and even after hours of continuous play, don't have any heating issues. FF=100 in itself is not a problem. You have to look at the global and in-car setting as whole. With the right balance, FF=100 is no more problematic than running TF=100 with in-car Masters at 100. Most people that run FF=100, run lower TF and in-car Masters to balance things out. When it comes to the gain and multiplier scales, it's always about balance across the chain, not one single scale.
The reason some people run FF=100 is because there's a difference in the feel of the FFB depending on the FF/TF balance. A higher FF feels different than higher TF. Personally, I've always preferred the feel of a higher FF. A higher TF balance makes the wheel feel more spongy/rubbery to me, and my lap times always suffer when I try to balance it that way. Obviously, it works for a lot of people, though. As does FF=100. Either way is fine. :)
Also, Koza... It's really hard to understand the difference until you've tried it on both consoles. I was very happy with my Xb1 FFB when PCars first released. It wasn't until I tried it on PS4 that I actually understood. Same with PC. The FFB is better than both Xb1 and PS4 on PC. It's not a big deal, though. PCars feel great on all platforms when compared to other titles on that platform. Cross platform differences are pretty common, and expected, for obvious reasons.
GM FFB is the End of the FFB chain and Has No influence on any of the FFB system GM FFB only Function is to set the at the Desired at the Wheel FFB strength Only.
Also Now that it has been Proven about PCars invisible Head Room GM FFB 100 is Now to Me Considered even more Excessive because it will Not allow you to explore the Full potential if the FFB system without excessive at the wheel FFB strength and at the wheel Clipping.... This Has always been My opinion and still is.... There was always tennenbaums theory that the invisible head Room existed but Never any proof after Skoaders last test it Proves invisible Head Room exist.... GM FFB 100 will Not allow that to be utilized due to the Fact its the Last part of the FFB Chain and Has No influence on the FFB system it only affects at the Final wheel FBB strength:yes:
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 16:17
Not sure why you guys get Harsh FFB on xbox, but my FFB is sweet as ever. I will post my settings later for TX, I found a sweet spot (even tho I already thought I found one before), and could not stop playing couple of nights before.
Also, my TX default is on 100 GM FFB and it's fine, I just lower TF to 70-75. I used to play opposite TF>FFB, but lately I prefer TF<FFB. I will post my settings later, Grimey you could try them and see what you think as you have TX and Xbox1.
The Centering Spring Feels Harsh on XB1... Its more than likely just a Matter of Setting the Proper GM FFB and Maybe adding some smoothing and Damping.
The XB1 Also feels as if it has a Smaller Dead zone in Center thats probably due to the Stronger FFB it puts out... Remember the XB1 uses a New FFB protocol than PC/PS4 its more than likely Not perfected yet where as PC/PS4 still use the same old FFB protocol that has been perfected throughout the years. Im pretty sure its all just a Matter of adjusting things starting with GM FFB to get it right... at 1 time the PS4 FFB and XB1 Pcars FFB were almost identical in Feel.... The PS4 has always had More subtle feel than XB1 though.... Im sure this will Change in time as MS perfects their New FFB protocol.
Also armed with the Priof that Pcars FFB system Has invisible Head Room GM FFB 100 will Not leave room to explore this area and bring out potential Feel yhat you May be Missing because the Forces will Saturate at the Wheel because as I Noted GM FFB Has No influence on the Global or in Car FFB settings... It only affects at the wheel FFB power.
Lets not forget the fact the default values have to do with were the wheel becomes very nonlinear also.
GM FFB is the End of the FFB chain and Has No influence on any of the FFB system GM FFB only Function is to set the at the Desired at the Wheel FFB strength Only.
Also Now that it has been Proven about PCars invisible Head Room GM FFB 100 is Now to Me Considered even Excessive because it will Not allow you to explore the Full potential if the FFB system without excessive at the wheel FFB strength and at the wheel Clipping.... This Has always been My opinion and still is.... There was akways tennenbaums theiry that the invisible head Room existed but Never any proof after Skoader last test it Proves invisible Head Roomexist.... GM FFB 100 will Not allow that to be utilized due to the Fact its the Last part of the FFB Chain and Has No influence on the FFB system it only affects at the Final wheel FBB strength:yes:
Doesn't matter where it is. It still affects the end feel, which is what we're talking about. This is something you can test. There's a difference in feel depending on the FF/TF balance. Easily tested. FF/TF 100/75 feels a lot different than 75/100. Yes, it's weight, but it still has a shaping effect on the final feel. (In fact, I recall having this debate with you before. You were convinced that FF wasn't weight. You said TF was wheel weight. :) )
Using FF=100 doesn't have to result in clipping. Nor does it have to be excessive. Lots of scale settings can cause clipping. And any scale can be pushed to excess. Running in-car Masters at 100 can be seen as excessive, too. And, depending on your globals, that could also cause clipping. Clipping isn't a result of FF being too high. Clipping is a result of pushing too much through the chain and failing to balance it out along the way.
Yes. There's invisible headroom, but it's not a requirement to use that headroom. Many people don't use it. Just because it was proven to exist doesn't mean you have to utilize it. :) Also, as showed by Tennebaum's graph (I think it was his), the headroom doesn't travel through the chain. Eventually, it's compressed back into range further down the chain. This compression causes saturation and a decrease in force differentiation. So, using the headroom is a matter of personal tastes. I don't like saturation and prefer not to use a lot of compression (whether it be SC or RAC).
It's all a matter of preference. There's no reason you can't use GM FF=100. A lot of people do, myself included, and the FF feel is just fine. Whether or not it's your style or whether you understand the reason people do it doesn't make it any less valid of an option/method. :)
Also armed with the Priof that Pcars FFB system Has invisible Head Room GM FFB 100 will Not leave room to explore this area and bring out potential Feel yhat you May be Missing because the Forces will Saturate at the Wheel because as I Noted GM FFB Has No influence on the Global or in Car FFB settings... It only affects at the wheel FFB power.
Actually, the forces get more saturated when you use the headroom, because whatever you pushed into that headroom will be compressed further down the chain. And, again, as has been previously explained (both contextually and visually) by a few of the math experts here, that compression leads to saturation. And the compression also results in a reduction in differentiation because the forces are operating in a narrower (compressed) range. The detail is still there, it's just harder to detect/discern the changes in force levels.
GM FF=100 doesn't result in saturation, because, as you said above, it's just weight applied at the end of the chain. At that point, there's nothing to saturate. The calculations are already done. TF and the other gains that are actually used to calculate the forces are what create saturation when they pushed to excess and/or not properly balanced. Saturation can make the wheel feel heavier, but saturation and wheel weight are not the same thing.
RobboCod
07-06-2016, 17:41
Yes first it is not recommended to run the t300 past 75ffb and you really shouldn't need to. Try my settings on the oscarolim site. I have changed the scoop values to 48sr and 85 sk and drr .11 ,drf .016 . These should give you a good starting point.
These feel quite different in a good way. I can't quite describe it but I've just raced a few laps and I was getting some extra things going on. Although I've not played the game for a little while so could also be that.
Off topic, but funny because... One, despite his profession, she still doesn't trust his driving and tells him what to do. And two, I wish my girlfriend sounded that sexy when she was complaining. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKmuZ87rGzI&list=PLooQu6dbxLk0db3SGMC_Vgkq_2e_GCgef
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 19:46
Doesn't matter where it is. It still affects the end feel, which is what we're talking about. This is something you can test. There's a difference in feel depending on the FF/TF balance. Easily tested. FF/TF 100/75 feels a lot different than 75/100. Yes, it's weight, but it still has a shaping effect on the final feel. (In fact, I recall having this debate with you before. You were convinced that FF wasn't weight. You said TF was wheel weight. :) )
Using FF=100 doesn't have to result in clipping. Nor does it have to be excessive. Lots of scale settings can cause clipping. And any scale can be pushed to excess. Running in-car Masters at 100 can be seen as excessive, too. And, depending on your globals, that could also cause clipping. Clipping isn't a result of FF being too high. Clipping is a result of pushing too much through the chain and failing to balance it out along the way.
Yes. There's invisible headroom, but it's not a requirement to use that headroom. Many people don't use it. Just because it was proven to exist doesn't mean you have to utilize it. :) Also, as showed by Tennebaum's graph (I think it was his), the headroom doesn't travel through the chain. Eventually, it's compressed back into range further down the chain. This compression causes saturation and a decrease in force differentiation. So, using the headroom is a matter of personal tastes. I don't like saturation and prefer not to use a lot of compression (whether it be SC or RAC).
It's all a matter of preference. There's no reason you can't use GM FF=100. A lot of people do, myself included, and the FF feel is just fine. Whether or not it's your style or whether you understand the reason people do it doesn't make it any less valid of an option/method. :)
There's nothing wrong with using GM FF=100, as long as you balance it elsewhere in the chain. We're always talking about how the FFB system can be configured multiple ways and how that's the beauty of it. So, this is just another instance of that flexibility. Running both TF and FF at 100 is where problems starts. The recommendation to run lower FF from Thrustmaster was no doubt in response to the issues people were having. But those issues were back in the beginning, when people were trying to run FF and TF higher than they should, and console players not realizing that some PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation.
Nope that debate wasn't Me:confused: I have always understood that GM FFB was just to set the Final at the wheel FFB level and has No influence on In car settings,TF, Global or Steering Gain.
I have always understood that TF added wheel weight... I was Lost and had Not recognized the fact that TF Ruled the in Car Masters:yes:(some how just plain and simple over looked that obvious fact)...That was the key that unlocked the FFB paradox for me :victorious:
The invisible head room can be very useful to use IMO because the smaller subtle forces can be boosted higher so they can clearly be felt... The thing with smaller forces is the signal can or may be very faint so the subtle feel can/might get lost within the stronger FFB forces unless it can be boosted to a usable Clearly felt signal range...The stronger forces will be felt regardless and can be shaped + or - with Scoops and other settings.... So IMO finding ways to bring out the subtle feel is most important:yes:
Nope i don't debate any 1 for the settings they use...If i don't like them i just don't use them:yes: LOL... That's exactly how this thread got started... It was said that if i didn't like the FFB or FFB calculation method to start my own thread so that's what i did:p LOL!!!
I have always stated there is no right or wrong FFB formula... even though if you look at the first page within the first 5 post i was told that My way was wrong and would not work:rolleyes:...LOL... have a look see for yourself... for any 1 to say that they have the only way is like saying SMS did not make a open FFB system and if that were truly the case we might as well be playing Forza just with a different wrapper and name brand:no: as long as every 1 is happy with their FFB that's all that really matters most:yes: This is what i have always said.
IMO GM FFB 100 is not needed for console because of this---> Note quote from your post "PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation" case and point:yes: GM FFB is the point that i have always debated:p
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 19:48
Get ready for the Next Big Break through!!! Every time it starts some how progress gets made:p LOL:yes:
Nope that debate wasn't Me:confused: I have always understood that GM FFB was just to set the Final at the wheel FFB level and has No influence on In car settings,TF, Global or Steering Gain. ...
IMO GM FFB 100 is not needed for console because of this---> Note quote from your post "PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation" case and point:yes: GM FFB is the point that i have always debated:p
No it was you. I have a pretty good memory. :) We went back and forth for a few posts. Can't find them in the thread, but there's actually quite a few instances of you saying it.
The more i look at it the more Pcars FFB is like Codmasters 3 slider FFB system.
GM FFB = at the wheel FFB power
TF = Wheel weight
RAC = Environment FFB Level Control...Bumps, Curbs etc.
IMO, TF is tire forces, as the name says, plain and simple. Those forces may make the wheel feel heavier, but it's not weight. It's too dynamic to be just weight. Calling it weight, overlooks all of the nuances of that force. FF is weight, benign and added at the very end to shape the feel. In fact, without FF adding weight to those forces, TF alone doesn't generate any wheel weight. Simple test: Set FF=0 and see how much wheel weight TF generates by itself. You'll see the tire forces in the telemetry, but you won't feel them. :) Obviously this doesn't work on the PS4/CSW-v2, because of the override, but if you turn the @wheel FF to 0, you get the same thing.
This is why, IMO, telling people to raise TF to increase wheel weight is misleading. Raising TF is doing more than increasing wheel weight. It's altering your whole dynamic range because TF is used to calculate all of the tire forces. The reason the weight increases is because you're feeding more tire force into the chain, and a stronger calculated force is hitting FF at the end where the weight is applied. Set FF to 0, and that calculated force comes out the other end with zero weight, resulting in an active telemetry wave, but no force in the wheel. I believe this is what Jack means when he says FF=100 gives you the full dynamic range. Basically, whatever your global settings, if you want to feel those calculated forces at their fullest, FF needs to be at 100. Again, preference will dictate what level of weight you prefer, i.e. how strong you want your calculated forces/details to feel.
Also, regarding the PC players, I wasn't referring to all of them, only the ones that were running both TF and FF and 100. Jack's settings are FF/TF=100/75, which is similar to a lot of people that prefer higher FF balance, at least on the CSW-v2. On other wheels TF might need to be even lower. But even on PC, not all players attenuate FF in the driver. If you balance it out in the chain, there's no need to attenuate.
Edit: It's also worth mentioning, that I'm recommending or advocating FF=100. I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with it. I use it, but I don't claim it's for everyone. A few months back, before I retuned, I was running FF/TF at 90/75. My only real personal preference is that FF be higher than TF. Otherwise, the wheel resistance feel rubbery to me.
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 20:12
No it was you. I have a pretty good memory. :) We went back and forth for a few posts. Can't find them in the thread, but there's actually quite a few instances of you saying it.
Never Happened then:p LOL...Nope wasn't Me:yes:
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 20:54
something else i've Noticed about the v2 and XB1 is just how bad the universal hub and rim Suck!!! after going back to My Porsche 918RSR rim i realized just How truly clunky and heavy the Hub and rim combo really is... also the button mapping on XB1 with that rim Blows Donkey Schlong!!! LOL
something else i've Noticed about the v2 and XB1 is just how bad the universal hub and rim Suck!!! after going back to My Porsche 918RSR rim i realized just How truly clunky and heavy the Hub and rim combo really is... also the button mapping on XB1 with that rim Blows Donkey Schlong!!! LOL
Yeah... I have the hub and GT rim for the PS4, and it's pretty heavy. That extra weight makes a huge difference, which I can feel when driving the same car with the lighter F1 rim. I've been thinking about getting either the BMW or the Porsche rim, but I'm afraid that as soon as I do, Fanatec will come out with something else. I also don't like the multi-colored buttons on the BMW rim (too many colors) or the brown leather on the Porsche rim, so I'm actually hoping they do make a new Fantatec branded GT rim. I will say this, though. For the Xb1, the hub is best option, because that CSL wheel sucks! I have one and hate it. It's cheap construction compared to the rest of their line up and doesn't have the quick release. I'd rather have the heavier hub set. In retrospect, I wish I had got the BMW rim for the PS4 and a hub set for the Xb1. If Xb1 comes out with a decent exclusive title, I'll probably get a hub set and sell the CSL. But right now, with Forza being the only exclusive, I don't feel too pressed to get one.
Edit: Do you have a BMW GT rim? If so, which is lighter, the Porsche or the BMW? Is there's a weight difference, is it substantial enough to influence the purchasing decision?
Never mind, I just checked the website. The Porsche is about 30% lighter. :)
GrimeyDog
07-06-2016, 21:43
I dont own the BMW Rim but i chose the Porsche rim based on it being 30% lighter and also the LED rev lights are much Much better and brighter than the Led lights used on the BMW Rim...Its a 1 time investment and due to the excellent build quality of the Porsche rim it always has great resale value!!! Ive had my Porsche rim over 1.5yrs and the leather is still looking brand new and i dont use gloves when using it.... I highly recommend spending the extra cash its a worthy investment in your sim gear:yes:
I dont own the BMW Rim but i chose the Porsche rim based on it being 30% lighter and also the LED rev lights are much Much better and brighter than the Led lights used on the BMW Rim...Its a 1 time investment and due to the excellent build quality of the Porsche rim it always has great resale value!!! Ive had my Porsche rim over 1.5yrs and the leather is still looking brand new and i dont use gloves when using it.... I highly recommend spending the extra cash its a worthy investment in your sim gear:yes:
I think that's the direction I'm going. The BMW rim is too much like the hub/GT set I have now. And those buttons on the BMW are awful. The red, blue, and black combo would have been okay, but adding green, yellow, purple, orange, gray, and white to the mix was a bit of overkill. I mean seriously...WTF?...LOL Also, being 30% lighter is a huge plus. I think I'll get it after I mount the TV to the rig, since the Buttkickers seem to be on extended back order. :(
Somethings for sure, a given balance of TF(simplicity sake) will always be the same, when everything else is disabled, from a telemetry standpoint, regardless of the platform or the wheel used.
In between, you have Relatives Adjust, Soft Clipping, Deadzones Removal, Scoops and (Steering Gain) to modulate how the hardware drivers make the wheel render the FFB signal. All of those perform the same on all platform. However, balance will change, from platform to platform, because of the next point.
This is where the platforms differs. All hardware drivers interact with a wheel somewhat differently on their respective platform. This means someone wanting to acheive the same feel would need to play with FF(Drivers) and related globals.
Yes first it is not recommended to run the t300 past 75ffb and you really shouldn't need to. Try my settings on the oscarolim site. I have changed the scoop values to 48sr and 85 sk and drr .11 ,drf .016 . These should give you a good starting point.
Thanks again mate. Tried your settings on a couple of cars last night and it felt great. Will test out Grimey's and Haiden's tonight.
Gamer82678
08-06-2016, 05:34
Thanks again mate. Tried your settings on a couple of cars last night and it felt great. Will test out Grimey's and Haiden's tonight.
Make sure to check out Wheel FFB Guide posted by piorqc in reply above for much good reference ! :cool:
Utilize the software tools you find there to better understand "your" wheel linear response at various FFB Strength in Thrustmaster Control Panel.
Go with the FFB Strength that is the most naturally linear for "your" wheel.
Every wheel is like a snow flake and has its own individual minute response characteristics. :rolleyes:
To better come about "your" settings.
Be patient !
Test your wheel at different FFB gain settings in Thrustmaster Control Panel.
Stay away from too high of Tire Force, FFB and/or Gain settings when you play Project Cars on PS4 cause it will harm your wheel and/or your health ! :rolleyes:
The T300 is a sensitive wheel ! :cool:
May you tweak those settings till you get your FFB sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat ! :cool:
On Fanatec wheels FFB Strength has a direct impact on the Linearity of the wheel and the deadzone as game FFB is controlled by the on wheel settings.
At 100% FFB you wheel will be as linear as possible and have the lowest deadzone.
Test it in FCM.
Jack Spade
08-06-2016, 06:55
Nope that debate wasn't Me:confused: I have always understood that GM FFB was just to set the Final at the wheel FFB level and has No influence on In car settings,TF, Global or Steering Gain.
I have always understood that TF added wheel weight... I was Lost and had Not recognized the fact that TF Ruled the in Car Masters:yes:(some how just plain and simple over looked that obvious fact)...That was the key that unlocked the FFB paradox for me :victorious:
The invisible head room can be very useful to use IMO because the smaller subtle forces can be boosted higher so they can clearly be felt... The thing with smaller forces is the signal can or may be very faint so the subtle feel can/might get lost within the stronger FFB forces unless it can be boosted to a usable Clearly felt signal range...The stronger forces will be felt regardless and can be shaped + or - with Scoops and other settings.... So IMO finding ways to bring out the subtle feel is most important:yes:
Nope i don't debate any 1 for the settings they use...If i don't like them i just don't use them:yes: LOL... That's exactly how this thread got started... It was said that if i didn't like the FFB or FFB calculation method to start my own thread so that's what i did:p LOL!!!
I have always stated there is no right or wrong FFB formula... even though if you look at the first page within the first 5 post i was told that My way was wrong and would not work:rolleyes:...LOL... have a look see for yourself... for any 1 to say that they have the only way is like saying SMS did not make a open FFB system and if that were truly the case we might as well be playing Forza just with a different wrapper and name brand:no: as long as every 1 is happy with their FFB that's all that really matters most:yes: This is what i have always said.
IMO GM FFB 100 is not needed for console because of this---> Note quote from your post "PC players who said they were 100/100 were actually attenuating the FF in the PC driver control panel, so it was more like 100/75 with attenuation" case and point:yes: GM FFB is the point that i have always debated:p
I did several tests with this and posted the results in this thread....."re scaling".... final result, you´re not saturating nor are you gaining anything if high TF levels
are re scaled, for reference this posting:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1284157&viewfull=1#post1284157
Again, you get the same result with a high TF level re scaled or a low TF level not re scaled, there is no gaining detail with either, but it´s more difficult to set up
a SC re scaling line....going for the effect of a compressor is a different situation.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 10:46
I did several tests with this and posted the results in this thread....."re scaling".... final result, you´re not saturating nor are you gaining anything if high TF levels
are re scaled, for reference this posting:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1284157&viewfull=1#post1284157
Again, you get the same result with a high TF level re scaled or a low TF level not re scaled, there is no gaining detail with either, but it´s more difficult to set up
a SC re scaling line....going for the effect of a compressor is a different situation.
Question what is "Going for the effect of a Compressor"
im Not sure what you mean by that??? Please give more details...thnx.
Question what is "Going for the effect of a Compressor"
im Not sure what you mean by that??? Please give more details...thnx.
Like he has in his listed in his setting for lower end wheels. Instead of rescaling the whole range of forces lower you can compress everything into a range that's usable.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 11:05
Side Note...Now that I have My FFB Feeling Great with all cars and its Very stable day in day out No Random FFB glitches Ok im Ready to try the wheel Check:yes:
My Method is before i used a tool i wanted to have the FFB fine tuned by hand and Become Very Familiar with it... This will allow Me to Measure the Tool against the FFB i tweeked by Hand so i can accurately rate if the tool makes it better or worse.
Ok who is going to walk Me through the Process???
Side Note...Now that I have My FFB Feeling Great with all cars and its Very stable day in day out No Random FFB glitches Ok im Ready to try the wheel Check:yes:
My Method is before i used a tool i wanted to have the FFB fine tuned by hand and Become Very Familiar with it... This will allow Me to Measure the Tool against the FFB i tweeked by Hand so i can accurately rate if the tool makes it better or worse.
Ok who is going to walk Me through the Process???
Pretty sure that's been explained in this thread. There was a lot of discussion about it, a lot. Also, there are detailed instructions are on the download page. Just remember, the FCM's built in test doesn't work right with the CSW-v2, so you need to run WheelCheck first, and then import the files into the FCM. And test your wheel after it's warmed up. Everything else is on the download page.
Side Note...Now that I have My FFB Feeling Great with all cars and its Very stable day in day out No Random FFB glitches Ok im Ready to try the wheel Check:yes:
My Method is before i used a tool i wanted to have the FFB fine tuned by hand and Become Very Familiar with it... This will allow Me to Measure the Tool against the FFB i tweeked by Hand so i can accurately rate if the tool makes it better or worse.
Ok who is going to walk Me through the Process???
Its really easy grimey. Just open poirqcs page and click the fcm link. Plug you wheel into your pc/laptop. Click the force test and set it to 4 when the box comes up. Run test that's it. When its done click calculate best r2 to get the appropriate scoops and ddr values.
Side Note...Now that I have My FFB Feeling Great with all cars and its Very stable day in day out No Random FFB glitches Ok im Ready to try the wheel Check:yes:
My Method is before i used a tool i wanted to have the FFB fine tuned by hand and Become Very Familiar with it... This will allow Me to Measure the Tool against the FFB i tweeked by Hand so i can accurately rate if the tool makes it better or worse.
Ok who is going to walk Me through the Process???
Im not sure what your on wheel FFB is set to but try running wheecheck check with FFB set at different levels . 100 on your wheel and the graph will be almost completely straight and as you lower it the further it moves away and increases the deadzone .
Turns out 100 FFB on console with Fanatec is overall probably best after all .
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 13:29
Like he has in his listed in his setting for lower end wheels. Instead of rescaling the whole range of forces lower you can compress everything into a range that's usable.
Pretty sure that's been explained in this thread. There was a lot of discussion about it, a lot. Also, there are detailed instructions are on the download page. Just remember, the FCM's built in test doesn't work right with the CSW-v2, so you need to run WheelCheck first, and then import the files into the FCM. And test your wheel after it's warmed up. Everything else is on the download page.
LOL... I guess its getting Very Obviouse then that i just prefer to do the FFB by Feel then... Ive Never been interested in using the calculators...I have Never paid them any attention other than reading what people post... Even Now im just Curious as to what #'s the tool will Give:confused:... But im in a Great position to rate the tool against Hand Tweeking because for Me My FFB is Spot on... I would be Very Happy and Surprised if the Tool can Make it better.... You Never Know anything is possible.
LOL... I guess its getting Very Obviouse then that i just prefer to do the FFB by Feel then... Ive Never been interested in using the calculators...I have Never paid them any attention other than reading what people post... Even Now im just Curious as to what #'s the tool will Give:confused:... But im in a Great position to rate the tool against Hand Tweeking because for Me My FFB is Spot on... I would be Very Happy and Surprised if the Tool can Make it better.... You Never Know anything is possible.
I don't think the tool makes it better or perfects it. The tool simply speeds up the tuning process by putting you in the ball park to start. Without it, you basically start in the dark. You might eventually find the sweet spot, but it probably wouldn't have taken as long using the tool to get a starting point.
transfix
08-06-2016, 14:32
So what is the ideal GM FFB on Xbox One with the V2?
gotdirt410sprintcar
08-06-2016, 14:52
LOL... I guess its getting Very Obviouse then that i just prefer to do the FFB by Feel then... Ive Never been interested in using the calculators...I have Never paid them any attention other than reading what people post... Even Now im just Curious as to what #'s the tool will Give:confused:... But im in a Great position to rate the tool against Hand Tweeking because for Me My FFB is Spot on... I would be Very Happy and Surprised if the Tool can Make it better.... You Never Know anything is possible.
don't knock the tool to you tried it grimey I only spent fifteen minutes and I feel the difference all ready. I have better controlee with cold tires and you feel the tires gain grip just everything is better and my line was not perfect. Plus you use wheel settings so you use two ways to tune but the guide says just do it by whats in the game because its all there already. use the tool
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 15:04
So what is the ideal GM FFB on Xbox One with the V2?
This will be Very FFB Tweek dependent.
I was at GM FFB the other day... The FFB was stronger than it Needs to Be... When i get back to it i will Try 25 or 20... naybe 15??? But the sweet spot should be between 15 & 25 using My tweek With TF/RAC 75.
I was Measuring the XB1 FFB against the PS4 FFB i use 75 on wheel FFB for both... on PS4 My side Fan Has Not come on in Months!!! I often check it turning wheel off and on or Cranking up Wheel FFB to 100 to make the Fan turn on to make sure its working:yes:
With PS4 the GM FFB is set to 100 because GM FFB is Set through the Wheel....Fanatec wheels only.
PS4 with GM FFB 100 and on Wheel FFB 75 and The TF/RAC 75 tweek wheel temp stays 85°F to 90°F even after Hours of use.
XB1 on Wheel FFB 75... I plugged My same Tweek settings in XB1 and wheel temp was 105°F after 20 Min of use!!! GM FFB was 30.
i also used GM FFB 30 and the Auto FFB for the V2 wheel and the result was the same... The FFB was Much stronger than PS4 and the wheel was Hotter after only 20min of use!!! I use a infrared thermometer to Monitor wheel temp... Only about $25.00 its a Good investment and can be used to measure heat on just about anything!!!
Koza_Nostra
08-06-2016, 15:14
So what is the ideal GM FFB on Xbox One with the V2?
Depends on your Global settings and also In-Car Master Scale?
Koza_Nostra
08-06-2016, 15:17
Regards FCM, the tool is great to find your linearity, it simply saves time and it has improved my FFB a lot. I thought my FFB was good already, but running FCM couple of months ago has improved my FFB so much better. At first I thought WOW, it gave high SK and SR values, but once you try them it works great, at least for TX on Xbox1.
i also used GM FFB 30 and the Auto FFB for the V2 wheel and the result was the same... The FFB was Much stronger than PS4 and the wheel was Hotter after only 20min of use!!! I use a infrared thermometer to Monitor wheel temp... Only about $25.00 its a Good investment and can be used to measure heat on just about anything!!!
Curious... Where do you take your measurements from? The motor is inside the unit under a heat sink and you can't really hit the surface with the laser can you?
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 15:18
I did several tests with this and posted the results in this thread....."re scaling".... final result, you´re not saturating nor are you gaining anything if high TF levels
are re scaled, for reference this posting:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1284157&viewfull=1#post1284157
Again, you get the same result with a high TF level re scaled or a low TF level not re scaled, there is no gaining detail with either, but it´s more difficult to set up
a SC re scaling line....going for the effect of a compressor is a different situation.
No debating but then why is it with Higher TF levels the Saturation of FFB forces can be felt in the wheel??? ...The output can Not be the same Even though the FFB Graph Looks the same.
The Stronger FFB Forces will Clearly be felt any way so it seems more important to on Focus bringing out the subtle feel first by using the invisible head room to Boost the subtle FFB signal to a usable range... Then set the Final at the wheel FFB Strength with GM FFB set according to taste:yes:
Regards FCM, the tool is great to find your linearity, it simply saves time and it has improved my FFB a lot. I thought my FFB was good already, but running FCM couple of months ago has improved my FFB so much better. At first I thought WOW, it gave high SK and SR values, but once you try them it works great, at least for TX on Xbox1.
Exactly, you can tune by feel, but the tool is the only way to check your wheel's linearity and know when you're settings are linear. That's not something you can determine by feel.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 15:23
Curious... Where do you take your measurements from? The motor is inside the unit under a heat sink and you can't really hit the surface with the laser can you?
Yes... The Laser will shine right through the Vent opening... I take 3 readings Bottom, Middle, Top the top is the Hottest part because the Heat Radiates upwards... I just do 3 readings but i only count and post the Top/Highest Heat Reading.
No debating but then why is it with Higher TF levels the Saturation of FFB forces can be felt in the wheel??? ...The output can Not be the same Even though the FFB Graph Looks the same.
The Stronger FFB Forces will Clearly be felt any way so it seems more important to on Focus bringing out the subtle feel first by using the invisible head room to Boost the subtle FFB signal to a usable range... Then set the Final at the wheel FFB Strength with GM FFB set according to taste:yes:
Using the invisible headroom, means you'll have to compress the signal later to get it back into the wheel's usable range. Look at that graph Tennebaum or Poirqc posted (yellow looking paper scan). It clearly shows how the headroom space is compressed later in the chain, and how that narrower, compressed range has less differentiation. Less differentiation is not conducive to getting greater subtle feel. It's the opposite. You have less subtle feel with less differentiation, because the force changes are harder to detect. In other words, you're making the change in force more subtle, not bring out the subtle feel of the FFB.
Yes... The Laser will shine right through the Vent opening... I take 3 readings Bottom, Middle, Top the top is the Hottest part because the Heat Radiates upwards... I just do 3 readings but i only count and post the Top/Highest Heat Reading.
That's what I thought, so you're scanning the heat sink, not the actual motor. The motor is probably cooler.
Also, 105F isn't hot. I believe Fanatec's recommend range is something like 115-130F. Believe me, they've tested the crap out of those things. Whatever they recommend, you can bet it's lower than their actual test results. Companies usually play it safe and make recommendations that leave a bit of margin. They wouldn't recommend 130F if they weren't sure that was okay. They don't like replacing bases and more than customers like burning them out. :)
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 15:31
Exactly, you can tune by feel, but the tool is the only way to check your wheel's linearity and know when you're settings are linear. That's not something you can determine by feel.
I question this statement... but at the end of the day for Me its Not really about having the Most Linear wheel... Its about what settings feel the best.
I dunno if we can ever get a truly Linear wheel because the wheel weight always fluctuates due to the FFB Bleed off to create FFB Feel... IMO Damping/Soothing is a better way to create a More Linear wheel because they Cushen and Slow the FFB Forces from being abrupt and Fast changes which by default creates a feel of Linearity in a way.
I question this statement... but at the end of the day for Me its Not really about having the Most Linear wheel... Its about what settings feel the best.
I dunno if we can ever get a truly Linear wheel because the wheel weight always fluctuates due to the FFB Bleed off to create FFB Feel... IMO Damping/Soothing is a better way to create a More Linear wheel because they Cushen and Slow the FFB Forces from being abrupt and Fast changes which by default creates a feel of Linearity in a way.
Question what? Are you saying you can feel linearity? If so, then I would seriously question that statement. :) I do not see how that would be possible to do by feel alone. Human beings just don't have that kind of tactile sensitivity.
Not sure I understand the second part of that. You can't get 100% linearity. There's always going to be a small degree of regression, as the tool will clearly show. But you can get pretty damn close (.9998) using the tool. And that's the point. You will never be able to feel your way that close to linearity. I also don't see how damping and Smoothing create a more linear wheel. As far as I know, those affects are applied to the entire curve, so how would it straighten it out? They aren't like Scoop and deadzone.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 15:43
That's what I thought, so you're scanning the heat sink, not the actual motor. The motor is probably cooler.
Also, 105F isn't hot. I believe Fanatec's recommend range is something like 115-130F. Believe me, they've tested the crap out of those things. Whatever they recommend, you can bet it's lower than their actual test results. Companies usually play it safe and make recommendations that leave a bit of margin. They wouldn't recommend 130F if they weren't sure that was okay. They don't like replacing bases and more than customers like burning them out. :)
When Pcars first launched My wheel used to Run 125°F to 135°F ... I contacted Fanatec they said that the Temp was Fine...So Yes the wheel can Take it... Im Not saying the wheel is Getting Danger Zone Hot... Its No Where Near the Danger Zone.... But My point is Keeping it Running Cooler is better in the Long term... The Excess Heat over time will eventually Cause the Belts to Stretch and wear Faster and Maybe even shorter FFB Motor Life.
I dont Remember what the Danger Zone Temp was but its Hotter than 140°F
As it is Now the FFB is Much Much Better than what it was and the Wheel Temp Stays Cool:yes: Thats the Best of Both worlds... Its Not like i lost FFB Feel or performance when i found settings that keep the wheel Cool... Matter of Fact the FFB Feel got Better and i suffer No FFB Fade when using the wheel Long extended peroliods of time... Generally i use the wheel 4 to 5 hours a day!!! Yuo every day too if i can... LOL
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 15:48
Question what? Are you saying you can feel linearity? If so, then I would seriously question that statement. :) I do not see how that would be possible to do by feel alone. Human beings just don't have that kind of tactile sensitivity.
Not sure I understand the second part of that. You can't get 100% linearity. There's always going to be a small degree of regression, as the tool will clearly show. But you can get pretty damn close (.9998) using the tool. And that's the point. You will never be able to feel your way that close to linearity. I also don't see how damping and Smoothing create a more linear wheel. As far as I know, those affects are applied to the entire curve, so how would it straighten it out? They aren't like Scoop and deadzone.
These settings Slow or Dampen wheel weight changes... so it will Feel more Linear due to less fluctuating power to the wheel.
Not saying i can or could feel the diff between 90 and 100% Linearity... I said its about how the wheel feels best to you. its all about what feels good.
Koza_Nostra
08-06-2016, 15:48
I question this statement... but at the end of the day for Me its Not really about having the Most Linear wheel... Its about what settings feel the best.
I dunno if we can ever get a truly Linear wheel because the wheel weight always fluctuates due to the FFB Bleed off to create FFB Feel... IMO Damping/Soothing is a better way to create a More Linear wheel because they Cushen and Slow the FFB Forces from being abrupt and Fast changes which by default creates a feel of Linearity in a way.
Not sure this makes sense, the second paragraph..?
I wasn't bothered with linear wheel too much before, until I tried FCM recommended SK and SR values, then I wished I have tried them sooner. Just try it, and you may understand what linearity means and does to the feel of the wheel.
When Pcars first launched My wheel used to Run 125°F to 135°F ... I contacted Fanatec they said that the Temp was Fine...So Yes the wheel can Take it... Im Not saying the wheel is Getting Danger Zone Hot... Its No Where Near the Danger Zone.... But My point is Keeping it Running Cooler is better in the Long term... The Excess Heat over time will eventually Cause the Belts to Stretch and wear Faster and Maybe even shorter FFB Motor Life.
I dont Remember what the Danger Zone Temp was but its Hotter than 140°F
As it is Now the FFB is Much Much Better than what it was and the Wheel Temp Stays Cool:yes: Thats the Best of Both worlds... Its Not like i lost FFB Feel or performance when i found settings that keep the wheel Cool... Matter of Fact the FFB Feel got Better and i suffer No FFB Fade when using the wheel Long extended peroliods of time... Generally i use the wheel 4 to 5 hours a day!!! Yuo every day too if i can... LOL
I'm pretty sure Fanatec's recommendations are based on long term use. Again, because it's in their best interest to run these test. It's basic product development. They have put those wheel through more testing than you will ever do. Why second guess them?
Thise settings Slow ir Damoen wheel weight changes... so it will Feel more Linear due to less fluctuating piwer to the wheel.
Not daying i can or could feel the diff between 90 and 100% Linearity... I said its about how the wheel feels best to you. its all about what feels good.
But they do that (slowing/dampening) across the board. Linearity issues aren't across the entire curve. If you ran the tool, you would see how the raw curve looks. It's bowed and some areas are more linear while others aren't. You can't apply the same dampening to the curve as a whole to achieve linearity. Think about how Scoop Knee works. It's bending/altering the curve at a fixed point. I think you should run the tool, then comment, because the statement above doesn't really make sense.
Jezza819
08-06-2016, 16:49
I dont own the BMW Rim but i chose the Porsche rim based on it being 30% lighter and also the LED rev lights are much Much better and brighter than the Led lights used on the BMW Rim...Its a 1 time investment and due to the excellent build quality of the Porsche rim it always has great resale value!!! Ive had my Porsche rim over 1.5yrs and the leather is still looking brand new and i dont use gloves when using it.... I highly recommend spending the extra cash its a worthy investment in your sim gear:yes:
I could kick myself for getting this suede rim. Yes I've gotten used to wearing gloves but I would still rather not use them. I might have some funds coming in a few months on a gift card, if I can get Fanatec to accept it I'll be ordering a leather rim of some sort.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 18:35
I'm pretty sure Fanatec's recommendations are based on long term use. Again, because it's in their best interest to run these test. It's basic product development. They have put those wheel through more testing than you will ever do. Why second guess them?
any way what i said is Simple and Clear... But i will Say it again in simpler terminology:yes: My Point is that the Equipment suffers No Harm or Performance Loss by using settings that allow it to operate at a Lower temperature .... The Equipment can and does Suffer FFB Fade when oprating at Higher temperatures over a long period of time.... I contacted fanatec support when My wheel used to run at 125°F + and Fanatec advised Me that the temp was within Specs but i was also advised that if i could operate the equipment at a Lesser Temp that that would be Better:yes: I Never Said anything about the Temps being too Much for the wheel sooo:confused: Read My Comments again:p... But IMO with any Electronic equip the Cooler the Operating Temp the Better...and IMO Cooler Temps will Not Guarentee Longer Product Life but it can Help to extend product Life... EX: over a Long period of time the Extra Heat Can Cause the Belts to Stretch:yes: Very Logical, Simple, very easy for Most to understand:victorious:
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 18:43
Getting Ready for a Break through!!! It always Happens when the Symantic word Game Shennanagins Start:p
My Wife Be Crying Laughing... I wont Repeat what she sez though....Nvr mind:rolleyes:
LOL... Made My Day Go by Quicker:yes: Fresh off work Ready to Do Some Racing... Maybe even some FFB testing...
transfix
08-06-2016, 20:07
Depends on your Global settings and also In-Car Master Scale?
I am currently running:
In Game FFB 90
Tire Force - 35
V2 FFB - 40
In Car FFB
Master 100
Fx - 20
Fy - 40
Fz - 80
Mz - 60
Keep in mind I don't like a very strong FFB.
Getting Ready for a Break through!!! It always Happens when the Symantic word Game Shennanagins Start:p
My Wife Be Crying Laughing... I wont Repeat what she sez though....Nvr mind:rolleyes:
LOL... Made My Day Go by Quicker:yes: Fresh off work Ready to Do Some Racing... Maybe even some FFB testing...
Yep. It'll probably come when you run the FCM tool and get a better understand of wheel linearity. It's pretty straight forward and easy to understand. Kind of like how discovering the TF/Master Scale relationship change things for you.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 21:14
Regards FCM, the tool is great to find your linearity, it simply saves time and it has improved my FFB a lot. I thought my FFB was good already, but running FCM couple of months ago has improved my FFB so much better. At first I thought WOW, it gave high SK and SR values, but once you try them it works great, at least for TX on Xbox1.
Now this is what im Talking about... Exactly this!!! how would 1 ever know if the tool made the FFB better or worse if 1 first does not have a good base FFB to measure the tool by??? Case and point:yes: Exactly what i have been saying the tool can only save you time if you first have a idea and clue of what FFB feel you are looking for...As a human i measure the tool against my natural feel to see if the tool makes it better or not...if it were simple as using the tool the FFB Quest for many would have ended months ago.
LOL BTW i tried to run the FCM and it crashed My PC...shrugggs... i have to re down load it i deleted it after the PC crash:yes: is there a new link to get a fresh copy??? maybe i will try again later. ATM im practicing for a league race.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 21:25
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/linearity
Linearity is the behavior of a circuit, particularly an amplifier (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/amplifier) , in which the output signal (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/signal) strength varies in direct proportion to the input signal strength. In a linear device, the output-to-input signal amplitude ratio is always the same, no matter what the strength of the input signal (as long it is not too strong).
In an amplifier that exhibits linearity, the output-versus-input signal amplitude graph appears as a straight line. Two examples are shown below. The gain, or amplification factor, determines the slope of the line. The steeper the slope, the greater the gain. The amplifier depicted by the red line has more gain than the one depicted by the blue line. Both amplifiers are linear within the input-signal strength range shown, because both lines in the graph are straight.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/WhatIs/images/linearity.gif
In analog applications such as amplitude-modulation ( AM (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/amplitude-modulation) ) wireless transmission and hi-fi audio, linearity is important. Nonlinearity in these applications results in signal distortion, because the fluctuation in gain affects the shape of an analog (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/analog) output waveform (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/waveform) with respect to the analog input waveform.
Even if an amplifier exhibits linearity under normal conditions, it will become nonlinear if the input signal is too strong. This situation is called overdrive. The amplification curve bends towards a horizontal slope as the input-signal amplitude increases beyond the critical point, producing distortion in the output. An example is a hi-fi amplifier whose gain is set to the point where the VU (volume-unit) meter needles kick into the red range. The red zone indicates that the amplifier is not operating in a linear fashion. This can degrade the fidelity of the sound.
When the FFB Effects are active the wheel can not be linear due to bleed off... Exactly what Linearity Feel is being chased??? describe this linear FFB in detailed terms.... I know what it is but i need to hear what is the definition of the linear FFB being chased according to some one elses point of view???
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/linearity
"Linearity is the behavior of a circuit, particularly an amplifier (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/amplifier) , in which the output signal (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/signal) strength varies in direct proportion to the input signal strength. In a linear device, the output-to-input signal amplitude ratio is always the same, no matter what the strength of the input signal (as long it is not too strong).
In an amplifier that exhibits linearity, the output-versus-input signal amplitude graph appears as a straight line. Two examples are shown below. The gain, or amplification factor, determines the slope of the line. The steeper the slope, the greater the gain. The amplifier depicted by the red line has more gain than the one depicted by the blue line. Both amplifiers are linear within the input-signal strength range shown, because both lines in the graph are straight.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/WhatIs/images/linearity.gif
In analog applications such as amplitude-modulation ( AM (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/amplitude-modulation) ) wireless transmission and hi-fi audio, linearity is important. Nonlinearity in these applications results in signal distortion, because the fluctuation in gain affects the shape of an analog (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/analog) output waveform (http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/waveform) with respect to the analog input waveform.
Even if an amplifier exhibits linearity under normal conditions, it will become nonlinear if the input signal is too strong. This situation is called overdrive. The amplification curve bends towards a horizontal slope as the input-signal amplitude increases beyond the critical point, producing distortion in the output. An example is a hi-fi amplifier whose gain is set to the point where the VU (volume-unit) meter needles kick into the red range. The red zone indicates that the amplifier is not operating in a linear fashion. This can degrade the fidelity of the sound."
When the FFB Effects are active the wheel can not be linear due to bleed off... Exactly what Linearity Feel is being chased??? describe this linear FFB in detailed terms.... I know what it is but i need to hear what is the definition of the linear FFB being chased according to some one elses point of view???
Its not a feel thats being chased. The point to making the wheel linear is the forces will be reproduced as the game or your ffb settings produced them. If you look at a t300 fcm curve before adding scoops its not even close to linear. So lets say a particular wheel has overly strong lower forces compared to the higher ones by making the wheel more linear the lower and higher forces would be more balanced instead of the lower ones being too strong compared to the higher ones. It just makes it easier to find a good ffb setting when you arent fighting the wheel producing out of balance forces. We aren't talking about amplifiers here we are talking brushless motors in most cases and is the case with most motors they aren't linear. Now if you start talking special purpose built motors like the ones used for dd wheels that's a different story and the reason you want one for sim racing.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 22:21
Its not a feel thats being chased. The point to making the wheel linear is the forces will be reproduced as the game or your ffb settings produced them. If you look at a t300 fcm curve before adding scoops its not even close to linear. So lets say a particular wheel has overly strong lower forces compared to the higher ones by making the wheel more linear the lower and higher forces would be more balanced instead of the lower ones being too strong compared to the higher ones. It just makes it easier to find a good ffb setting when you arent fighting the wheel producing out of balance forces.
Maybe i dont have the linearity issue because i use settings with high in car masters??? but my wheel weight is even and balance more than ever before once i went to TF/RAC 75 or same # value for both TF and RAC... both set the force level for different parts of the FFB system when i balanced them to same # value it was like magic:yes:
Maybe i dont have the linearity issue because i use settings with high in car masters??? but my wheel weight is even and balance more than ever before once i went to TF/RAC 75 or same # value for both TF and RAC... both set the force level for different parts of the FFB system when i balanced them to same # value it was like magic:yes:
Linearity has nothing to do with your car masters. Maybe you just got lucky and your wheel is close to linear now but if its not and you fix it youd probably have to adjust things. But if youre happy with it now that's all that matters.
gotdirt410sprintcar
08-06-2016, 22:43
Why don't you just run the fcm grimey then you can tell us if you can feel linearity lol. I know the steering feels more smooth the notching feeling is gone for the most part I probably need to play with the pwm. Just being a$$ but i was three car lengths ahead of you at the Glen in the FA till I hit the curd then the fence in the last turn. I would lose you in the bus stop before I played with the sheet/tool
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 22:53
Linearity has nothing to do with your car masters. Maybe you just got lucky and your wheel is close to linear now but if its not and you fix it youd probably have to adjust things. But if youre happy with it now that's all that matters.
i guess the v2 is close to linear but i tweeked the FFB by hand until it felt right...
Car masters + or - the FFB signal to TF...so yes it will affect Linearity...if i run lower masters i would be feeding TF less signal so TF output signal would be less.
When i + or - the in car Masters the FFB to the wheel is increased or decreased and this can be clearly felt even the FFB Graph line is reduced according to where the car masters are set... this is how My tweek can be adjusted to Normalize wheel weight per car as Haiden would say....LOL How easy is that:yes: also works the same for adjusting tweek for different wheels...as i have always said with my tweek 100 masters is not mandatory.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 23:03
Why don't you just run the fcm grimey then you can tell us if you can feel linearity lol. I know the steering feels more smooth the notching feeling is gone for the most part I probably need to play with the pwm. Just being a$$ but i was three car lengths ahead of you at the Glen in the FA till I hit the curd then the fence in the last turn. I would lose you in the bus stop before I played with the sheet/tool
I dunno cant remember that race... online race or racing 1 of My ghost???
but im game and up for some racing Now... I had been testing and tweeking looking for the right FFB balance sooo much until TF/RAC 75 that i had not really been racing much at all... Last serious racing i did was with 6.0 until now... nope im Not the fastest but im ready to go!!!.
I have a good league Im racing in you want to race with us??? were racing the Gt4 Ginetta this season... Let me know i will add you to the group message board.
I need new link to down Load tool...i deleted it because when trying to instal and run it my PC crashed... i dunno wha happened:confused:
gotdirt410sprintcar
08-06-2016, 23:15
No this was the time trial, you running with snail world championship is lessonjr running it?
i guess the v2 is close to linear but i tweeked the FFB by hand until it felt right...
Car masters + or - the FFB signal to TF...so yes it will affect Linearity...if i run lower masters i would be feeding TF less signal so TF output signal would be less.
When i + or - the in car Masters the FFB to the wheel is increased or decreased and this can be clearly felt even the FFB Graph line is reduced according to where the car masters are set... this is how My tweek can be adjusted to Normalize wheel weight per car as Haiden would say....LOL How easy is that:yes: also works the same for adjusting tweek for different wheels...as i have always said with my tweek 100 masters is not mandatory.
No it wont affect it. Plus or minus 2 at the car master is still plus or minus 2 across the board. Scoops, gain, wheel ffb master and soft clipping depending on how you use that one will effect linearity in the wheel. You cannot see wheel linearity in the hud thats why you need to use wheel check or the fcm. Yes you might get lucky without it and pick the correct scoop values but youll never know until you try it.
Maybe i dont have the linearity issue because i use settings with high in car masters??? but my wheel weight is even and balance more than ever before once i went to TF/RAC 75 or same # value for both TF and RAC... both set the force level for different parts of the FFB system when i balanced them to same # value it was like magic:yes:
Linearity has nothing to do with your car masters. Maybe you just got lucky and your wheel is close to linear now but if its not and you fix it youd probably have to adjust things. But if youre happy with it now that's all that matters.
Why don't you just run the fcm grimey then you can tell us if you can feel linearity lol. I know the steering feels more smooth the notching feeling is gone for the most part I probably need to play with the pwm. Just being a$$ but i was three car lengths ahead of you at the Glen in the FA till I hit the curd then the fence in the last turn. I would lose you in the bus stop before I played with the sheet/tool
i guess the v2 is close to linear but i tweeked the FFB by hand until it felt right...
Car masters + or - the FFB signal to TF...so yes it will affect Linearity...if i run lower masters i would be feeding TF less signal so TF output signal would be less.
When i + or - the in car Masters the FFB to the wheel is increased or decreased and this can be clearly felt even the FFB Graph line is reduced according to where the car masters are set... this is how My tweek can be adjusted to Normalize wheel weight per car as Haiden would say....LOL How easy is that:yes: also works the same for adjusting tweek for different wheels...as i have always said with my tweek 100 masters is not mandatory.
Linearity is not an issue, in terms of problems. It's just how the motor outputs force. Some CSW-v2s can test very close to linear, but it's not linear by default. GM FF can affect the deadzone, which in turn affects linearity, but TF and in-car masters don't have anything to do with it. Most games don't even allow you to adjust the Scoop, so you have to use the wheel with it's native force curve whether it's linear or not. PCars allows you to make this adjustment and straighten the curve out.
The only way to know if your wheel's response is linear, or how much regression there is, is to test it. You can't feel it, because human beings don't have that kind of tacticle sense. So unless you were born on Mars, you need to use a tool to check your wheel's linearity. Just because your wheel feels good doesn't mean anything. If you haven't run the test, then all you're actually saying is, "My wheel feels the best it's ever felt to me." And that doesn't mean it can't feel better. Without running the test, you simply don't know if there are any missed opportunities. If you haven't run the test, then one, you don't know if your wheel is responding in a linear fashion or not. And two, you don't know if the feel you have can be improved.
I just don't understand why someone would argue that something doesn't work or have the potential to improve things when they've never actually tried it. Why don't you try it, Grimey, and then comment on it? Otherwise, what are you basing your comments on? You don't even actually know if your wheel is linear or not. Actually, I should say, you don't know how much regression there is in your wheel, because it's not totally linear. Might be close, but there's gotta be some regression in it.
GrimeyDog
08-06-2016, 23:53
Linearity is not an issue, in terms of problems. It's just how the motor outputs force. Some CSW-v2s can test very close to linear, but it's not linear by default. GM FF can affect the deadzone, which in turn affects linearity, but TF and in-car masters don't have anything to do with it. Most games don't even allow you to adjust the Scoop, so you have to use the wheel with it's native force curve whether it's linear or not. PCars allows you to make this adjustment and straighten the curve out.
The only way to know if your wheel's response is linear, or how much regression there is, is to test it. You can't feel it, because human beings don't have that kind of tacticle sense. So unless you were born on Mars, you need to a tool to check your wheel's linearity. Just because your wheel feels good doesn't mean anything. If you haven't run the test, then all you're actually saying is, "My wheel feels the best it's ever felt to me." And that doesn't mean it can't feel better. Without running the test, you simply don't know if there are any missed opportunities. If you haven't run the test, then one, you don't know if your wheel is linear or not. And two, you don't know if the feel you have can be improved.
I just don't understand why someone would argue that something doesn't work or have the potential to improve things when they've never actually tried it. Why don't you try it, and then comment on
Nope Not I... Im Not arguing at all...Im Very Happy with the FFB as it is:yes: But if you read My Post i stated that I am Now Finally Ready to use the Tool to Check the Tool against My Hand Tweeked FFB:yes: Thats what i said... Its there for all to See ... Go back and Read again My comments with a Clear Non cynical Mind set see what ive been saying... Nope its Not I that argues, Bickers or Complains about some one elses choice about what settings they use.... To Each their own. Shruggs
gotdirt410sprintcar
08-06-2016, 23:59
Easy guys all day now lol
Nope Not I... Im Not arguing at all...Im Very Happy with the FFB as it is:yes: But if you read My Post i stated that I am Now Finally Ready to use the Tool to Check the Tool against My Hand Tweeked FFB:yes: Thats what i said... Its there for all to See ... Go back and Read again My comments with a Clear Non cynical Mind set see what ive been saying... Nope its Not I that argues, Bickers or Complains about some one elses choice about what settings they use.... To Each their own. Shruggs
Once again, I don't care what settings you or anyone else uses, or how you choose to go about it. I've told you that before. I'm only concerned with clarity and provided useful information.
I only respond/push back on outlandish and false statements, like Damping and Smoothing being the best way to achieve linearity. Or, TF and in-car masters affecting linearity. Or that a human being can detect linearity by feel. Or that you can check or tell anything about linearity by looking at the telemetry in the HUD. My issue/concern isn't with your personal FFB choices. My concern is that someone new to the game or looking for help will come to this thread and read something like damping and smoothing are the best way to achieve linearity, and then spend the next week wasting their time trying to do something that simply can't be done. This thread is supposed to be helpful, not misleading.
This thread moves so fast!
Actually, the forces get more saturated when you use the headroom, because whatever you pushed into that headroom will be compressed further down the chain. And, again, as has been previously explained (both contextually and visually) by a few of the math experts here, that compression leads to saturation. And the compression also results in a reduction in differentiation because the forces are operating in a narrower (compressed) range. The detail is still there, it's just harder to detect/discern the changes in force levels.
It isn't that straight forward. Soft Clip can be setup to provide better differentiation at mid-low force levels. This can be a big win for wheels where those low range forces are relatively weak. It can also act as a reasonably linear scaler. Scoop (which is also a form of compression) can provide better differentiation at higher force levels.
This thread moves so fast!
It isn't that straight forward. Soft Clip can be setup to provide better differentiation at mid-low force levels. This can be a big win for wheels where those low range forces are relatively weak. It can also act as a reasonably linear scaler. Scoop (which is also a form of compression) can provide better differentiation at higher force levels.
Does it do that (create better differentiation) by compressing the mid-low range or expanding it? I'm curious, because I just don't see how you can get better differentiation from a narrower, compressed range. And if you can, that doesn't seem like the norm. The graph I was referring to seems to show the affects of compression pretty well.
Edit: If you're referring to the method you posted a week or so ago, then think I know what you mean. I don't believe that's how Soft Clipping is normally used, though. That was kind of innovative.
Does it do that (create better differentiation) by compressing the mid-low range or expanding it? I'm curious, because I just don't see how you can get better differentiation from a narrower, compressed range. And if you can, that doesn't seem like the norm. The graph I was referring to seems to show the affects of compression pretty well.
I think he means using it to boost the lower forces. Remember you can use it to shape the ffb curve also. If I remember correctly there are 3 ways you can use sc.
I think he means using it to boost the lower forces. Remember you can use it to shape the ffb curve also. If I remember correctly there are 3 ways you can use sc.
Yeah... See my edit. I just thought about that. The thing is though, that's not the context of what I was responding to. I was responding to a specific statement about the use of FF, and it being the cause of saturation.
I question this statement... but at the end of the day for Me its Not really about having the Most Linear wheel... Its about what settings feel the best.
I dunno if we can ever get a truly Linear wheel because the wheel weight always fluctuates due to the FFB Bleed off to create FFB Feel... IMO Damping/Soothing is a better way to create a More Linear wheel because they Cushen and Slow the FFB Forces from being abrupt and Fast changes which by default creates a feel of Linearity in a way.
As soon as any compression happends, the signal isn't linear anymore. There's nothing wrong with that.
Linearity isn't the end goal. It's simply another mean to help to render things. That's probably why you never got any explanation about how linearity feels. The closest you could get would be that when using TF alone, with level low enough that it never clips. From there, it'll be weaker or strong depending on the wheel you're using.
The end goal is to have a clear feeling of understeering, oversteering, tire load increasing, road surface, tire deformation, etc... however the way you want it. Regarless of the method choosen to balance things, someone need some kind of references(Steering behaviors wise) to fine tune things, by hands or by maths.
The faster forces ramp up, the less room you have to render high loads. The slower things ramp up, the more room you have to render high loads. There's also everything in between.
At the end of the day, it's just about to balance things in a way that make the cars like someone would expect!
Does it do that (create better differentiation) by compressing the mid-low range or expanding it? I'm curious, because I just don't see how you can get better differentiation from a narrower, compressed range. And if you can, that doesn't seem like the norm. The graph I was referring to seems to show the affects of compression pretty well.
Edit: If you're referring to the method you posted a week or so ago, then think I know what you mean. I don't believe that's how Soft Clipping is normally used, though. That was kind of innovative.
If a wheel already output strongly low mid, it'll take more SR than a wheel that would ramp up slowly.
On a side note, FCM download links are always in the baseline thread.
Ok so guess who did up that how to use the fcm utility post and then totes blew it in practice. I read hundreds of times that some things would need recalc if you changed gain but did I absorb that??? Nope, been in the ffb rabbit hole again.
I set out to really understand the system and while I'm not done with research I am posting results, you can race me in the time trials, I'm currently in the #9 spot at Donnington National but kept blowing the last turn so I think I may run a little quicker. I crushed GrimeyDog's 1:06:905 with a 1:05xxx run in the Ruf RGT-8 GT3 but it's not a head to head run since our settings are prob not the same. I feel like I'm settling in with a modified GrimeyDogMethod setting for my preferred ffb settings.
Spent many hours trying to get the weight transfer sensation I want but just could not dial it in right, I got close with Jacks 66 files and after tweaking and tweaking popped in my modified GrimeyDogMethod settings, adjusted ffb quick and in two laps was faster than what I spent a week doing. It's nuts, for a little while I think I just want to race.
Let it be said again, trying to set ffb without fcm and wheelcheck is a fools errand and even with that it's easy to mess it up in a heartbeat.
Ok so guess who did up that how to use the fcm utility post and then totes blew it in practice. I read hundreds of times that some things would need recalc if you changed gain but did I absorb that??? Nope, been in the ffb rabbit hole again.
I set out to really understand the system and while I'm not done with research I am posting results, you can race me in the time trials, I'm currently in the #9 spot at Donnington National but kept blowing the last turn so I think I may run a little quicker. I crushed GrimeyDog's 1:06:905 with a 1:05xxx run in the Ruf RGT-8 GT3 but it's not a head to head run since our settings are prob not the same. I feel like I'm settling in with a modified GrimeyDogMethod setting for my preferred ffb settings.
Spent many hours trying to get the weight transfer sensation I want but just could not dial it in right, I got close with Jacks 66 files and after tweaking and tweaking popped in my modified GrimeyDogMethod settings, adjusted ffb quick and in two laps was faster than what I spent a week doing. It's nuts, for a little while I think I just want to race.
Let it be said again, trying to set ffb without fcm and wheelcheck is a fools errand and even with that it's easy to mess it up in a heartbeat.
When you're getting close and having a nice balance, you may be at the edge of the given balance. As soon as you move things, it's a tradeoff. You gain there, you lose there.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 01:29
No debating but then why is it with Higher TF levels the Saturation of FFB forces can be felt in the wheel??? ...The output can Not be the same Even though the FFB Graph Looks the same.
The Stronger FFB Forces will Clearly be felt any way so it seems more important to on Focus bringing out the subtle feel first by using the invisible head room to Boost the subtle FFB signal to a usable range... Then set the Final at the wheel FFB Strength with GM FFB set according to taste:yes:
Using the invisible headroom, means you'll have to compress the signal later to get it back into the wheel's usable range. Look at that graph Tennebaum or Poirqc posted (yellow looking paper scan). It clearly shows how the headroom space is compressed later in the chain, and how that narrower, compressed range has less differentiation. Less differentiation is not conducive to getting greater subtle feel. It's the opposite. You have less subtle feel with less differentiation, because the force changes are harder to detect. In other words, you're making the change in force more subtle, not bring out the subtle feel of the FFB.
This thread moves so fast!
It isn't that straight forward. Soft Clip can be setup to provide better differentiation at mid-low force levels. This can be a big win for wheels where those low range forces are relatively weak. It can also act as a reasonably linear scaler. Scoop (which is also a form of compression) can provide better differentiation at higher force levels.
Yeah Haiden Like Skoader Said... I Basicly said the same thing in My above post.... Soooo Um yeah.
BTW Like i told you before Im Straight Dude Stop trying to Ride Me... Im Married Straight Get it...Never Ever Ever a Reason to Troll another Mans Comments like you do for any Reason at all!!! Never Ever Ever... IJS...Very Obviouse that we Like Different things...
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 01:47
Easy guys all day now lol
For Real... Never Ever Ever a Reason to Troll another Mans Comments Like that For Any Reason!!! Never Ever Ever!!! Seriously... Go back take a Look and Read My Comments and see How i get Trolled... He Literally tries to sit and Pick apart every Post i Make For Months... Why is this??? Its obviouse that we have Different FFB taste... He uses JS settings so why is he worried about My settings or Comments with My settings when they dont pertain to him because as he Proudly toots his horn he uses JS settings...
IJS... My Wife and Son Read the post they Got Jokes....They said He Stalking Me!!! Look back at the Comments you be the judge:confused: Cause Never Ever Ever should a Man well...Who in here has Followed/Trolled another Mans Comments in here or any forum the way this Guy HaidenTrolls My Comments??? any 1....He Tries to Pick and Find Fault for what ever i say go back and Read you will see it!!!
Haiden I think Maybe you should Start a Thread where you can just Rule and Be who you want to be... Trust Me I promise i wont Follow you!!!
Edit: WOW!!! My Wife Got Jokes!!! LMAO.
Grimey, speaking of trolling hard, did you see where I called you out up above? I crushed you using your ffb method, I bet that stings but hey life's a thingy and then you go to the great PlayStation in the sky.
For Real... Never Ever Ever a Reason to Troll another Mans Comments Like that For Any Reason!!! Never Ever Ever!!! Seriously... Go back take a Look and Read My Comments and see How i get Trolled... He Literally tries to sit and Pick apart every Post i Make For Months... Why is this??? Its obviouse that we have Different FFB taste... He uses JS settings so why is he worried about My settings or Comments with My settings when they dont pertain to him because as he Proudly toots his horn he uses JS settings...
IJS... My Wife and Son Read the post they Got Jokes....They said He Stalking Me!!! Look back at the Comments you be the judge:confused: Cause Never Ever Ever should a Man well...Who in here has Followed/Trolled another Mans Comments in here or any forum the way this Guy HaidenTrolls My Comments??? any 1....He Tries to Pick and Find Fault for what ever i say go back and Read you will see it!!!
Haiden I think Maybe you should Start a Thread where you can just Rule and Be who you want to be... Trust Me I promise i wont Follow you!!!
Edit: WOW!!! My Wife Got Jokes!!! LMAO.
I wouldn't call that trolling grimey. I have to agree it was more clarifying the fact tf and car masters don't effect wheel linearity.
Yeah Haiden Like Skoader Said... I Basicly said the same thing in My above post.... Soooo Um yeah.
BTW Like i told you before Im Straight Dude Stop trying to Ride Me... Im Married Straight Get it...Never Ever Ever a Reason to Troll another Mans Comments like you do for any Reason at all!!! Never Ever Ever... IJS...Very Obviouse that we Like Different things...
Wow!
No you didn't say what Skoader said. What Skoader said actually made sense. You were talking some gibberish about FF causing saturation.
And I don't know why you keep using gay references as an insult. It's immature, rude to anyone in this community that is gay, kind of lame, and downright pathetic actually. I'm not interested in you. I just can't stand your BS. You don't like tools and don't use them, then when everyone else is having good results, suddenly it's the second step in your "method". You argue about saturation, and then don't even know that TF and Master Scale are the same, but you're cranking them both sky high. You say Damping and smoothing are the best way to achieve linearity and TF and Master Scales affect linearity. I'm not sure which is more ridiculously laughable. As I've told you before (many times, but for some reason you seem hell bent on ignoring), I don't give two craps about what settings you use, or how you got there. I just don't like your BS and misinformation. The thread is for helping people, not confusing them.
And while you're reading up on TF and linearity, why don't you look up trolling, because you don't seem to know what that is either. We're in the same discussion thread. I'm not following you around this forum. Have I commented on anything else you've ever said anywhere else? No. That would be trolling. I comment here, because it's a discussion I've been participating in. Sorry if my push back interferes with your BS. I'm sure it would be easier for you if I ignored some of your ridiculous statements.
But here's what I do find funny... Whenever I do push back on your BS, you resort to you gay jokes and accuse me of trolling you. I guess that's easier than backing up the BS, right? Classic misdirection. But hey... I get it. It's hard to prove/show how you can use damping and smoothing to achieve linearity, right? I mean, where you gonna get a magician at this hour, you know?
And, just an FYI, you're not the only one I've questioned/pushed back on in this thread. You just talk the most BS, so I see how you get confused. But go ahead. Crack your gay jokes and keep spewing your BS. I really don't care. Besides, that kind of stuff makes you look far worse than you think it makes me look. But if it makes you feel better, keep at it. It's real classy. ;)
I wouldn't call that trolling grimey. I have to agree it was more clarifying the fact tf and car masters don't effect wheel linearity.
Save your breath. He has his own dictionary of terms, and the clouds are obviously a different color in his world.
When you're getting close and having a nice balance, you may be at the edge of the given balance. As soon as you move things, it's a tradeoff. You gain there, you lose there.
I got so close to what I wanted out of the JS files but the Fx and how Fy interacted in turns just had me going around and around, no matter how I tweaked those two settings in particular, on top of tweaking the base settings, had me really unhappy with the game developers. Even worse is that when I get lost I've just reset the ffb to the default or classic setting not even considering that the classic gain setting is 75 not 100 and since I'm an expert fcm user we all know that your dead zones double and scoops change by 20 to 30 points each, um so yea I kept saying bad words in dismay that stuff could go from so close to so bad in an instant.
At several points I had settings where I could properly identify tire scrub but still just hated the sensations during heavy braking into turns. I think I just need to stop and play again for a while before digging in again.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 02:30
Grimey, speaking of trolling hard, did you see where I called you out up above? I crushed you using your ffb method, I bet that stings but hey life's a thingy and then you go to the great PlayStation in the sky.
LOL... No actually that Makes Me Feel Really Good!!! Its easy for Me to be Fast as i can be with My settings but when Some one else can Beat you with your own work thats a Confirmation that your work is Good:yes: Im Glad you Like them... Good Work on Beating that Time!!!
Did you have a Tuned Car??? My car was Stock No tune Not even Tire PSI adjustment... Now that the FFB is Done im Going to work on a Few Suspension tunes!!!
Tbh I'm not sure, I saw you had a time up and wanted to run in the same car just to see how my tweaking ffb was going. I played with tuning to see if I could get more out of it later on but pretty much I just wanted to run method against method.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 02:54
Wow!
No you didn't say what Skoader said. What Skoader said actually made sense. You were talking some gibberish about FF causing saturation.
And I don't know why you keep using gay references as an insult. It's immature, rude to anyone in this community that is gay, kind of lame, and downright pathetic actually. I'm not interested in you. I just can't stand your BS. You don't like tools and don't use them, then when everyone else is having good results, suddenly it's the second step in your "method". You argue about saturation, and then don't even know that TF and Master Scale are the same, but you're cranking them both sky high. You say Damping and smoothing are the best way to achieve linearity and TF and Master Scales affect linearity. I'm not sure which is more ridiculously laughable. As I've told you before (many times, but for some reason you seem hell bent on ignoring), I don't give two craps about what settings you use, or how you got there. I just don't like your BS and misinformation. The thread is for helping people, not confusing them.
And while you're reading up on TF and linearity, why don't you look up trolling, because you don't seem to know what that is either. We're in the same discussion thread. I'm not following you around this forum. Have I commented on anything else you've ever said anywhere else? No. That would be trolling. I comment here, because it's a discussion I've been participating in. Sorry if my push back interferes with your BS. I'm sure it would be easier for you if I ignored some of your ridiculous statements.
But here's what I do find funny... Whenever I do push back on your BS, you resort to you gay jokes and accuse me of trolling you. I guess that's easier than backing up the BS, right? Classic misdirection. But hey... I get it. It's hard to prove/show how you can use damping and smoothing to achieve linearity, right? I mean, where you gonna get a magician at this hour, you know?
And, just an FYI, you're not the only one I've questioned/pushed back on in this thread. You just talk the most BS, so I see how you get confused. But go ahead. Crack your gay jokes and keep spewing your BS. I really don't care. Besides, that kind of stuff makes you look far worse than you think it makes me look. But if it makes you feel better, keep at it. It's real classy. ;)
Hey I Never Said or Posted the word " Gay" in any post i Made!!! Its Obviouse we like Different things...
I dont play the word symantics Game but i know how to play it:p So Now we can either Talk Straight FFB talk or we can Keep playing word symantics Games... My English is Clear and the english Vocab is Not that Complex 1 word can Have Multiple.Meanings depending on Context clues and How sentece is phrased... With that said...Just Stop... Ok Just Stop... Your Not Dumb Neither am I...the Comments are Here for all to see how you try to use word Manipulation to cause Confusion youve been doing it for Months.. Keep it Straight with Me i keep it straight with you simple othe than that we can agree just Not to Cross talk Very easy... Whats it gonna be? Your Not Dumb Neither am I Nor is any 1 reading these post.
Edit... as i Skim over your post Its Obviouse that you dont read well or just have Not Read My post ... But any way ... Hey Just Like JS told Me Why dont you Go start yout Own thread then...or just go back to the Tread you started and Got Crickest on.
Edit: Take Note I have No Knowledge of your Personal preferences or Orientation about your Intimate Private Matters.... I Do Not Personaly Know you and Have Never Met you or discussed any thing of a personal Matter with you. as i said there is Never Ever Ever a Reason to Itemize and try to bicker with a Man over every Comment... I Find that Exteemly Odd and uncomfortable
gotdirt410sprintcar
09-06-2016, 03:03
Let God be with you two, Tonight and let a better tomorrow let go let God. No comment please
Edit we did learn something today. I think
Edit we need help here
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 03:08
I posted something similar a while back. Crickets was the only the response. :) I totally agree with you on this, and, although I'm currently using Jack Spade's in-car settings, I've always considered it a sort of cheat in the physics sense, as far as simulation goes. My question was aimed more at online competition. If you can take the sluggishness out of a heavier car's wheel and make it feel like a lighter more nimble car, then doesn't affect the match? I get that the car is still modeled to spec, but the driver of the heavier car, should be forced to deal manhandling that boat around the track, but with a few adjustments, he can make the wheel easier to tame. Or he lessen the feel of the bumps in a car that rides a little rough. That doesn't seem right.
Remember this post from page 2...Im pretty sure your thread has Not been deleted why Not go Rule it and post as you will... But Stop Trying to Cause Confusion in Here... Thanks for your Cooperation... Now Lets get back to FFB
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 03:12
Let God be with you two, Tonight and let a better tomorrow let go let God. No comment please
Edit we did learn something today. I think
Edit we need help here
LMAO... Im Here Sipping Brandy CTFU... Bout to get some sleep...
Grimey I've used your settings as a base for mine, tweaked a few things here and there but they feel pretty good mate.
Interestingly I'm on xbox with TX wheel and it doesn't feel like overly strong feedback that others have reported. (Edit: I should note that I'm running default in-car ffb)
That said, I have nothing to compare it too, have never felt anyone else's FFB on any platform..
I'd love to hear how you (and others) go at replicating the same feel on xbox as ps4 and pc. I'd love to try those settings and see how they compare to my current feel..
Hey I Never Said or Posted the word " Gay" in any post i Made!!! Its Obviouse we like Different things...
I dont play the word symantics Game but i know how to play it:p So Now we can either Talk Straight FFB talk or we can Keep playing word symantics Games... My English is Clear and the english Vocab is Not that Complex 1 word can Have Multiple.Meanings depending on Context clues and How sentece is phrased... With that said...Just Stop... Ok Just Stop... Your Not Dumb Neither am I...the Comments are Here for all to see how you try to use word Manipulation to cause Confusion youve been doing it for Months.. Keep it Straight with Me i keep it straight with you simple othe than that we can agree just Not to Cross talk Very easy... Whats it gonna be? Your Not Dumb Neither am I Nor is any 1 reading these post.
Edit... as i Skim over your post Its Obviouse that you dont read well or just have Not Read My post ... But any way ... Hey Just Like JS told Me Why dont you Go start yout Own thread then...or just go back to the Tread you started and Got Crickest on.
Edit: Take Note I have No Knowledge of your Personal preferences or Orientation about your Intimate Private Matters.... I Do Not Personaly Know you and Have Never Met you or discussed any thing of a personal Matter with you. as i said there is Never Ever Ever a Reason to Itemize and try to bicker with a Man over every Comment... I Find that Exteemly Odd and uncomfortable
Oh, don't worry. Most people feel a little discomfort when they called on their BS.
Does it do that (create better differentiation) by compressing the mid-low range or expanding it? I'm curious, because I just don't see how you can get better differentiation from a narrower, compressed range. And if you can, that doesn't seem like the norm. The graph I was referring to seems to show the affects of compression pretty well.
Edit: If you're referring to the method you posted a week or so ago, then think I know what you mean. I don't believe that's how Soft Clipping is normally used, though. That was kind of innovative.
It's all about the shape of the force curve. The graph you're referring to (If I'm looking at the right one) is pretty specific to Relative Adjust - It doesn't really effect forces below the clamp so trying to squeeze a large range of forces into that limited range above is definitely going to cost you definition. But the other routines (Soft Clip & Scoop) manipulate forces over their entire input range. This is an important difference.
I'll use scoop to try and illustrate as it's a little easier. SK = 0.80, SR = 0.25.
With these settings the input force range [0.0 - 0.80] is being squeezed or compressed into the [0.0 - 0.60] output range. Input forces in the [0.80 - 1.0] range are being expanded out to [0.60 - 1.00].
234268
Running a sine wave through this function gives the following result. (Red was passed through scoop, while blue is the unmodified wave for comparison)
234269
Soft Clip works in the opposite direction so has a similar effect at the other end of the scale. One thing to make clear is that whether you're staying inside the usable force range or venturing well outside into the 'invisible headroom' is largely irrelevant. It's all about the shape of the curve. Jack showed this nicely in an earlier post. Here SC Half = 2.0, SC Full = 1.0.
234270
Again, I ran another sine wave through this function. (Red is passed through Soft clip while blue is the unmodified wave for comparison)
234271
tennenbaum
09-06-2016, 08:53
It's all about the shape of the force curve. The graph you're referring to (If I'm looking at the right one) is pretty specific to Relative Adjust - It doesn't really effect forces below the clamp so trying to squeeze a large range of forces into that limited range above is definitely going to cost you definition. But the other routines (Soft Clip & Scoop) manipulate forces over their entire input range. This is an important difference.
I'll use scoop to try and illustrate as it's a little easier. SK = 0.80, SR = 0.25.
With these settings the input force range [0.0 - 0.80] is being squeezed or compressed into the [0.0 - 0.60] output range. Input forces in the [0.80 - 1.0] range are being expanded out to [0.60 - 1.00].
234268
Running a sine wave through this function gives the following result. (Red was passed through scoop, while blue is the unmodified wave for comparison)
234269
Soft Clip works in the opposite direction so has a similar effect at the other end of the scale. One thing to make clear is that whether you're staying inside the usable force range or venturing well outside into the 'invisible headroom' is largely irrelevant. It's all about the shape of the curve. Jack showed this nicely in an earlier post. Here SC Half = 2.0, SC Full = 1.0.
234270
Again, I ran another sine wave through this function. (Red is passed through Soft clip while blue is the unmodified wave for comparison)
234271
thanks skoader to illustrate the matter so comprehensive!
it shows how you can either achieve more differentiation (details) within the higher forces, or more differentiation within the lower forces.
your graphs picture nicely how the i/o curve (as a "function") scales the actual signal.
(also true, all that has nothing to do with the invisible headroom.)
BTW: I'm interested in a little test... I guess you will quickly see what i'm aiming at... ;-)
Let's take as an example JS' "classic" settings for the Ruf 8 GT3:
--------
Fx 150
Fy 44
Fz 133
Mz 80
-------
Master Scale 32
SoP Diff 100
--------------
SoP Scale 32
------------------
TF 75
We know that JS' settings usually have no or only little saturation or soft limiting effects. So for the pureness of the test let's switch off RA and RAC, and also Softclipper. (I assume for the test it doesn't matter much if SG is 1.00 or >1.0, except causing clipping at some point when set to high.)
We also know master spindle scale, Sop Scale and TF behave like linear multipliers, and since we keep the tire forces mainly in the corridor 0.00 - 1.00 (as we do with above settings) no saturation effects come into play, so the following setting should lead to the same FFB feeling:
--------
Fx 15
Fy 4
Fz 13
Mz 8
-------
Master Scale 160
SoP Diff 10
--------------
SoP Scale 160
------------------
TF 150
With these setting I obviously divided the source tire forces by 10, BUT KEPT their ratio (almost) the same, and rescaled it back to its origin values by the factor 10 due to the increased in car scalers and TF. (I'm sure JS will like this little math exercise... ;-)
So, how does it feel? Does it feel the same? Or is there less differentiation (Haiden would call it "muted", or "starved")?
I'd love to do the test by myself, but i put my wheel in the basement...
But why that test?
I assume with the downscaled source tire forces the FFB details suffer a bit. I'm expecting some "muffling" effect to the FFB feeling. JS once said the pCars' signal chain doesn't have Signal to Noise issues, but without commenting on that (i simply don't know) i assume using only 7,5% (15/200) of the entire tire force scale (0-200) might compromise the signal quality.
By implication - if my assumption proves valid - maxing out the available headroom should lead to a higher signal quality. Based on that my second conclusion would be, that utilizing the invisible headroom and then rescaling it with softclipper should actually not only be "the same" as not doing it, but should lead to a bit of a better differentiation in general. Of course, this little improvement of details need a very good wheel to be sensed. But again, with stronger and better wheels (new Thrustmaster DD wheel...?) such higher grade of details might become valuable. Saying so i also assume that the devs had that in mind, when they designed a.) the invisible headroom, and b.) the Soft Clipper not only as a "clipper" but also as "re-scaler" if set accordingly.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 10:32
Side Note...Now that I have My FFB Feeling Great with all cars and its Very stable day in day out No Random FFB glitches Ok im Ready to try the wheel Check:yes:
My Method is before i used a tool i wanted to have the FFB fine tuned by hand and Become Very Familiar with it... This will allow Me to Measure the Tool against the FFB i tweeked by Hand so i can accurately rate if the tool makes it better or worse.
Ok who is going to walk Me through the Process???
Hot Dam Its a New Day:yes: Lets Hope its a Good 1:victorious: GM Pcars Fam this was My original post yesterday before the post got side tracked:yes: So as i was saying Now that i have the FFB Straightend out i am Now willing to try the Tools and see if i can benefit from them....I have always tweeked by Feel alone and Now that the FFB is Set and Balanced to My liking i have a Good Base point to judge if the tools can help to Make the FFB better:yes: Can some one post the link to the current FCM tool or the best tool to check for the V2....I had it on My PC from a bit ago but wheni tried to use it yesterday it crashed My PC... Shrugggs but today is a New Day Feeling Bright and positive.... Have a Good Day to all:yes:
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 10:53
Somethings for sure, a given balance of TF(simplicity sake) will always be the same, when everything else is disabled, from a telemetry standpoint, regardless of the platform or the wheel used.
In between, you have Relatives Adjust, Soft Clipping, Deadzones Removal, Scoops and (Steering Gain) to modulate how the hardware drivers make the wheel render the FFB signal. All of those perform the same on all platform. However, balance will change, from platform to platform, because of the next point.
This is where the platforms differs. All hardware drivers interact with a wheel somewhat differently on their respective platform. This means someone wanting to acheive the same feel would need to play with FF(Drivers) and related globals.
Grimey I've used your settings as a base for mine, tweaked a few things here and there but they feel pretty good mate.
Interestingly I'm on xbox with TX wheel and it doesn't feel like overly strong feedback that others have reported. (Edit: I should note that I'm running default in-car ffb)
That said, I have nothing to compare it too, have never felt anyone else's FFB on any platform..
I'd love to hear how you (and others) go at replicating the same feel on xbox as ps4 and pc. I'd love to try those settings and see how they compare to my current feel..
Poirqcs post sum it up very well... The settings will translate but Not exactly 1 to 1 ... In the case of XB1 for Me it would be a Matter of adjusting the XB1 GM FFB(Lowering it) to Compensate the difference between the 2 systems.... XB1 uses MS New FFB protocol and its Much Stronger than PS4... Then once i have that set right i could adjust DRR/DRF if Needed other than that all other settings could be the same.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 11:11
Tbh I'm not sure, I saw you had a time up and wanted to run in the same car just to see how my tweaking ffb was going. I played with tuning to see if I could get more out of it later on but pretty much I just wanted to run method against method.
What is your PSN Tag??? i will send you a friend request...I will Race your Ghost and see what i can come up with... I dont know if i can get the Ruf to the 1:05.5xx with stock settings... That 1:06.9xx it was hard to get with stock settings... the FFB is better balanced Now so Maybe i dunno... Its been a while since i ran Watkins pushing for time...as a Rule of thumb if i can keep Race Pace at 1:07.5xx im ok with that... Racing your Ghost will be Good it will Help Me tune the suspension to see where im losing time to try and get more.
Hmmm , poirqc what are all those links in you sig for again ?
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 11:21
Hmmm , poirqc what are all those links in you sig for again ?
I see the Links in his Sig but i dont Know which tool to use ... Im Not at the Point where i want to use the tool where you have to Export from to Import it to the other... I just want to use the Straight forward tool to see how it makes any difference if it does then i will dig deeper into using them.
I guess its Really obviouse that i havent been into using the tools thus Far.
I see the Links in his Sig but i dont Know which tool to use ... Im Not at the Point where i want to use the tool where you have to Export from to Import it to the other... I just want to use the Straight forward tool to see how it makes any difference if it does then i will dig deeper into using them.
I guess its Really obviouse that i havent been into using the tools thus Far.
I think you have to with the csw. I'm pretty sure the fcm test doesn't work properly for your wheel so you have to import the result from wheel check.
Speaking of tools ,lol .
I kid , i kid .
With the CSW importing is the only way , i think .
Download wheelcheck and FCM and run the test in wheelcheck and import to FCM . The imort option is right there in file drop down when you open FCM after you run wheelcheck .
Its pretty simple , even i worked it out and i didnt own a pc until 3 months ago , lol .
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 11:42
Speaking of tools ,lol .
I kid , i kid .
With the CSW importing is the only way , i think .
Download wheelcheck and FCM and run the test in wheelcheck and import to FCM . The imort option is right there in file drop down when you open FCM after you run wheelcheck .
Its pretty simple , even i worked it out and i didnt own a pc until 3 months ago , lol .
LOL... You aint Right!!!
Thanks i can Navagate My way around a PC pretty well... I Guess i can figure it out...LOL... I just wanted a Good FFB base to Rate the Tools against... Im Old School i like Hands on solutions... Hence why ive been tweeking by Feel thus far... But im willing to Give the Tools a Try:yes: For better or worse and see what happens:confused:
Hmmm , poirqc what are all those links in you sig for again ?
Click on them, you will see ;)
Seriously, those are just links that i think would be usefull for other users.
Click on them, you will see ;)
Seriously, those are just links that i think would be usefull for other users.
And useful they are , if only people would pop out of their bubbles and look i guess .
Thanks for all you information , you have helped me heaps and many others i would image .
transfix
09-06-2016, 13:12
In case this got missed among the fastest moving thread online LOL. What recommendations would you have to try.
I am currently running:
In Game FFB 90
Tire Force - 35
V2 FFB - 40
In Car FFB
Master 100
Fx - 20
Fy - 40
Fz - 80
Mz - 60
Keep in mind I don't like a very strong FFB.
It's all about the shape of the force curve. The graph you're referring to (If I'm looking at the right one) is pretty specific to Relative Adjust - It doesn't really effect forces below the clamp so trying to squeeze a large range of forces into that limited range above is definitely going to cost you definition. But the other routines (Soft Clip & Scoop) manipulate forces over their entire input range. This is an important difference.
Yep. That's the graph I was referring too. I get that soft clipping can be used for shaping. My comment generalized compression, but in the context of that discussion I was referring to a tune that uses high TF and Masters with a low RAC and no soft clipping. I shouldn't have generalize compression, though.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 13:18
And useful they are , if only people would pop out of their bubbles and look i guess .
Thanks for all you information , you have helped me heaps and many others i would image .
Yes Big Dad... I Know Im Coming out of the Closet, Bubble etc or what ever you wanna Call it.... I will Give the Tools a Try:p LOL
thanks skoader to illustrate the matter so comprehensive!
it shows how you can either achieve more differentiation (details) within the higher forces, or more differentiation within the lower forces.
your graphs picture nicely how the i/o curve (as a "function") scales the actual signal.
(also true, all that has nothing to do with the invisible headroom.)
BTW: I'm interested in a little test... I guess you will quickly see what i'm aiming at... ;-)
Let's take as an example JS' "classic" settings for the Ruf 8 GT3:
--------
Fx 150
Fy 44
Fz 133
Mz 80
-------
Master Scale 32
SoP Diff 100
--------------
SoP Scale 32
------------------
TF 75
We know that JS' settings usually have no or only little saturation or soft limiting effects. So for the pureness of the test let's switch off RA and RAC, and also Softclipper. (I assume for the test it doesn't matter much if SG is 1.00 or >1.0, except causing clipping at some point when set to high.)
We also know master spindle scale, Sop Scale and TF behave like linear multipliers, and since we keep the tire forces mainly in the corridor 0.00 - 1.00 (as we do with above settings) no saturation effects come into play, so the following setting should lead to the same FFB feeling:
--------
Fx 15
Fy 4
Fz 13
Mz 8
-------
Master Scale 160
SoP Diff 10
--------------
SoP Scale 160
------------------
TF 150
With these setting I obviously divided the source tire forces by 10, BUT KEPT their ratio (almost) the same, and rescaled it back to its origin values by the factor 10 due to the increased in car scalers and TF. (I'm sure JS will like this little math exercise... ;-)
So, how does it feel? Does it feel the same? Or is there less differentiation (Haiden would call it "muted", or "starved")?
I'd love to do the test by myself, but i put my wheel in the basement...
But why that test?
I assume with the downscaled source tire forces the FFB details suffer a bit. I'm expecting some "muffling" effect to the FFB feeling. JS once said the pCars' signal chain doesn't have Signal to Noise issues, but without commenting on that (i simply don't know) i assume using only 7,5% (15/200) of the entire tire force scale (0-200) might compromise the signal quality.
By implication - if my assumption proves valid - maxing out the available headroom should lead to a higher signal quality. Based on that my second conclusion would be, that utilizing the invisible headroom and then rescaling it with softclipper should actually not only be "the same" as not doing it, but should lead to a bit of a better differentiation in general. Of course, this little improvement of details need a very good wheel to be sensed. But again, with stronger and better wheels (new Thrustmaster DD wheel...?) such higher grade of details might become valuable. Saying so i also assume that the devs had that in mind, when they designed a.) the invisible headroom, and b.) the Soft Clipper not only as a "clipper" but also as "re-scaler" if set accordingly.
Actually, I wouldn't call it starved or muted. At first glance, it seems you just changed the distribution of TF, Master, and force scales. But the end product of each force scale is the same or very close, with the exception of SoP, which looks like it was halved. Assuming RAs and Soft Clipping are disabled, I would expect them to feel very similar.
Edit: I tried the soft clipping method Skoader posted a week or so ago. To my surprise, it didn't feel as saturated as I expected (felt quite good actually), which I think speaks to your point. Only changing those values (TF, SCH, SCF), and leaving my other globals the same did produce a very similar feel, but it also didn't feel quite the same. I admit, differences were subtle, and if I hadn't tried them back to back, it may not have been as noticeable. But, IMO, there was a slight difference in the feel.
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 16:53
Sheeesh!!! Im Finally Caught up on All the Reading:yes:
I guess im Some what Caught up and informed:victorious:
Had a Few Good Races Last Night!!! I Managed to get 3rd:applause: Ekay Jay Got first!!! Congrats to Him:yes: Every 1 is Pretty Fast and Very Clean Racers Not 1 First Corner Pile up yet!!! Nice
Were Racing the Gt4 Ginetta this season... If any 1 wants to Race with this league we have a few spots... Track is Watkins Short on Filriday, 30Min Race, Tire wear ×2, Fuel set to Real, Damage is performance impacting.
Edit: Nope I didn't Pick the Track:no: LOL
tennenbaum
09-06-2016, 18:03
Actually, I wouldn't call it starved or muted. At first glance, it seems you just changed the distribution of TF, Master, and force scales. But the end product of each force scale is the same or very close, with the exception of SoP, which looks like it was halved. Assuming RAs and Soft Clipping are disabled, I would expect them to feel very similar.
Edit: I tried the soft clipping method Skoader posted a week or so ago. To my surprise, it didn't feel as saturated as I expected (felt quite good actually), which I think speaks to your point. Only changing those values (TF, SCH, SCF), and leaving my other globals the same did produce a very similar feel, but it also didn't feel quite the same. I admit, differences were subtle, and if I hadn't tried them back to back, it may not have been as noticeable. But, IMO, there was a slight difference in the feel.
that's the point to leave the end product values the same. (SoP isn't halfed, is it? i divided SoP by ten and rescaled it by ten too). though, did you test it?
GrimeyDog
09-06-2016, 21:42
Grimey, speaking of trolling hard, did you see where I called you out up above? I crushed you using your ffb method, I bet that stings but hey life's a thingy and then you go to the great PlayStation in the sky.
Ok I'm Reloaded(Scare face voice...LOL)
your Porsche time did not upload to watkins short so i just slapped your Mclaren time around a bit with the Mercedes CLK-LM 1:01.738 put me in 15th... car suspension was stock no tune:yes:
Edit: wooohooo!!! i'm the Fastest Mercedes on the Board!!!
check out the counter steer save at the top of the up hill!!! i almost Lost it but managed to save it...feeling ever bit of grip loss... for me the subtle feel i need is definitely there!!! also my hands move 1 to 1 with the on screen wheel:yes: nice.
Video below
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fgfbYTvd07Y/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=pEF9b5XJ3UTygQLgNvLclcfpQK0
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgfbYTvd07Y)
thanks skoader to illustrate the matter so comprehensive!
it shows how you can either achieve more differentiation (details) within the higher forces, or more differentiation within the lower forces.
your graphs picture nicely how the i/o curve (as a "function") scales the actual signal.
(also true, all that has nothing to do with the invisible headroom.)
BTW: I'm interested in a little test... I guess you will quickly see what i'm aiming at... ;-)
Let's take as an example JS' "classic" settings for the Ruf 8 GT3:
--------
Fx 150
Fy 44
Fz 133
Mz 80
-------
Master Scale 32
SoP Diff 100
--------------
SoP Scale 32
------------------
TF 75
We know that JS' settings usually have no or only little saturation or soft limiting effects. So for the pureness of the test let's switch off RA and RAC, and also Softclipper. (I assume for the test it doesn't matter much if SG is 1.00 or >1.0, except causing clipping at some point when set to high.)
We also know master spindle scale, Sop Scale and TF behave like linear multipliers, and since we keep the tire forces mainly in the corridor 0.00 - 1.00 (as we do with above settings) no saturation effects come into play, so the following setting should lead to the same FFB feeling:
--------
Fx 15
Fy 4
Fz 13
Mz 8
-------
Master Scale 160
SoP Diff 10
--------------
SoP Scale 160
------------------
TF 150
With these setting I obviously divided the source tire forces by 10, BUT KEPT their ratio (almost) the same, and rescaled it back to its origin values by the factor 10 due to the increased in car scalers and TF. (I'm sure JS will like this little math exercise... ;-)
So, how does it feel? Does it feel the same? Or is there less differentiation (Haiden would call it "muted", or "starved")?
I'd love to do the test by myself, but i put my wheel in the basement...
But why that test?
I assume with the downscaled source tire forces the FFB details suffer a bit. I'm expecting some "muffling" effect to the FFB feeling. JS once said the pCars' signal chain doesn't have Signal to Noise issues, but without commenting on that (i simply don't know) i assume using only 7,5% (15/200) of the entire tire force scale (0-200) might compromise the signal quality.
By implication - if my assumption proves valid - maxing out the available headroom should lead to a higher signal quality. Based on that my second conclusion would be, that utilizing the invisible headroom and then rescaling it with softclipper should actually not only be "the same" as not doing it, but should lead to a bit of a better differentiation in general. Of course, this little improvement of details need a very good wheel to be sensed. But again, with stronger and better wheels (new Thrustmaster DD wheel...?) such higher grade of details might become valuable. Saying so i also assume that the devs had that in mind, when they designed a.) the invisible headroom, and b.) the Soft Clipper not only as a "clipper" but also as "re-scaler" if set accordingly.
Thanks!
One thing to consider with your hypothesis is that SC rescaling isn't done with a simple divide and there is probably a bigger opportunity here for the kind of loss of information that you're alluding to. Moreso if feeding in small numbers with a high Half Input setting. This is actually one of the reasons I pass raw forces with maximum resolution (TF 100, MS 100 etc.) to Soft Clip. I haven't done the math to determine if this potential loss of information is even significant, so consider it me habitually following 'best practices' rather than being a measured conclusion. ;) With that said, I'll give your test a run tonight.
Yes Big Dad... I Know Im Coming out of the Closet, Bubble etc or what ever you wanna Call it.... I will Give the Tools a Try:p LOL
Does your wife know?
tennenbaum
10-06-2016, 05:10
Thanks!
One thing to consider with your hypothesis is that SC rescaling isn't done with a simple divide and there is probably a bigger opportunity here for the kind of loss of information that you're alluding to. Moreso if feeding in small numbers with a high Half Input setting. This is actually one of the reasons I pass raw forces with maximum resolution (TF 100, MS 100 etc.) to Soft Clip. I haven't done the math to determine if this potential loss of information is even significant, so consider it me habitually following 'best practices' rather than being a measured conclusion. ;) With that said, I'll give your test a run
tonight.
i see what you mean. indeed, utilizing the headroom for an assumed gain of signal quality would only work, if rescaling with SC doesn't counteract it, due to processing imperfections of the SC module. insofar my idea of the test will only show if small numbers can cause kind of 'signal to noise problem' effects. the 'small number' test won't answer the question if the upscale/downscale possibility can lead to a better differentiation in general at the very end of the signal chain. ... thanks for giving the 'small numbers test' a try anyway;)
Just a thought: Your setting sets RA to 1.00 and RAC to 1.75. So since with RA set at 1.00 RA 'spicing' staying 'neutral' anyway you could switch off RAC. Thus - without the clamping at 1.75 - you could even use much higher source tireforces... Instead of rescaling with SC with factor 2 (0.5) you could rescale with e.g. factor 4 (0.25). So setting Fz and Mz to 200, SoP diff to 160 and then rescale back to norm-zone from there. ?? Well, we still wouldn't know if SC reacts to higher numbers with higher approximations (loosing details again).
It's all about the shape of the force curve. The graph you're referring to (If I'm looking at the right one) is pretty specific to Relative Adjust - It doesn't really effect forces below the clamp so trying to squeeze a large range of forces into that limited range above is definitely going to cost you definition. But the other routines (Soft Clip & Scoop) manipulate forces over their entire input range. This is an important difference.
I'll use scoop to try and illustrate as it's a little easier. SK = 0.80, SR = 0.25.
With these settings the input force range [0.0 - 0.80] is being squeezed or compressed into the [0.0 - 0.60] output range. Input forces in the [0.80 - 1.0] range are being expanded out to [0.60 - 1.00].
...
Running a sine wave through this function gives the following result. (Red was passed through scoop, while blue is the unmodified wave for comparison)
...
Soft Clip works in the opposite direction so has a similar effect at the other end of the scale. One thing to make clear is that whether you're staying inside the usable force range or venturing well outside into the 'invisible headroom' is largely irrelevant. It's all about the shape of the curve. Jack showed this nicely in an earlier post. Here SC Half = 2.0, SC Full = 1.0.
...
Again, I ran another sine wave through this function. (Red is passed through Soft clip while blue is the unmodified wave for comparison)
What I wanted to be clarified is how do we interpret the force curves at FCM. For a long time I was only looking at the fat blue line, the end result. It never occured I should be looking at the changed individual force curves. The thing is, when you are using more than one modifier and you are looking at the thinner line force changes, how do you combine them and how does that inform you? I mean, if you use a high DRR like most t300 require and then go ahead and use SK-SR, the final force line changes to a linear shape, but the individual force curves show the difference. Should we be looking at those independent force lines at all? Or only the final one? And when you factor in SoftClipping what happens then?? If I try to combine them all I end up with something like SoftHalf 3.60 - SoftFull 2.20
Jack Spade
10-06-2016, 08:46
thanks skoader to illustrate the matter so comprehensive!
it shows how you can either achieve more differentiation (details) within the higher forces, or more differentiation within the lower forces.
your graphs picture nicely how the i/o curve (as a "function") scales the actual signal.
(also true, all that has nothing to do with the invisible headroom.)
BTW: I'm interested in a little test... I guess you will quickly see what i'm aiming at... ;-)
Let's take as an example JS' "classic" settings for the Ruf 8 GT3:
--------
Fx 150
Fy 44
Fz 133
Mz 80
-------
Master Scale 32
SoP Diff 100
--------------
SoP Scale 32
------------------
TF 75
We know that JS' settings usually have no or only little saturation or soft limiting effects. So for the pureness of the test let's switch off RA and RAC, and also Softclipper. (I assume for the test it doesn't matter much if SG is 1.00 or >1.0, except causing clipping at some point when set to high.)
We also know master spindle scale, Sop Scale and TF behave like linear multipliers, and since we keep the tire forces mainly in the corridor 0.00 - 1.00 (as we do with above settings) no saturation effects come into play, so the following setting should lead to the same FFB feeling:
--------
Fx 15
Fy 4
Fz 13
Mz 8
-------
Master Scale 160
SoP Diff 10
--------------
SoP Scale 160
------------------
TF 150
With these setting I obviously divided the source tire forces by 10, BUT KEPT their ratio (almost) the same, and rescaled it back to its origin values by the factor 10 due to the increased in car scalers and TF. (I'm sure JS will like this little math exercise... ;-)
So, how does it feel? Does it feel the same? Or is there less differentiation (Haiden would call it "muted", or "starved")?
I'd love to do the test by myself, but i put my wheel in the basement...
But why that test?
I assume with the downscaled source tire forces the FFB details suffer a bit. I'm expecting some "muffling" effect to the FFB feeling. JS once said the pCars' signal chain doesn't have Signal to Noise issues, but without commenting on that (i simply don't know) i assume using only 7,5% (15/200) of the entire tire force scale (0-200) might compromise the signal quality.
By implication - if my assumption proves valid - maxing out the available headroom should lead to a higher signal quality. Based on that my second conclusion would be, that utilizing the invisible headroom and then rescaling it with softclipper should actually not only be "the same" as not doing it, but should lead to a bit of a better differentiation in general. Of course, this little improvement of details need a very good wheel to be sensed. But again, with stronger and better wheels (new Thrustmaster DD wheel...?) such higher grade of details might become valuable. Saying so i also assume that the devs had that in mind, when they designed a.) the invisible headroom, and b.) the Soft Clipper not only as a "clipper" but also as "re-scaler" if set accordingly.
The outcome of multipliers in this FFB system is nothing new to me but such an extreme isn´t really daily business.
Now, even with this extreme there is no signal to noise issue noticeable, no little extra spikes on the waveform or something strange on the wheel.
This could mean noise actually isn´t added or the resolution of monitor and wheel isn´t adequate to show. IMO FFB feels identical with either setting.
BTW as there´s no value limitation with tweaker files I have set the correct Fy value of 0.044.
GrimeyDog
10-06-2016, 10:59
The outcome of multipliers in this FFB system is nothing new to me but such an extreme isn´t really daily business.
Now, even with this extreme there is no signal to noise issue noticeable, no little extra spikes on the waveform or something strange on the wheel.
This could mean noise actually isn´t added or the resolution of monitor and wheel isn´t adequate to show. IMO FFB feels identical with either setting.
BTW as there´s no value limitation with tweaker files I have set the correct Fy value of 0.044.
Does This Mean that Every Little Spike we see in the FFB Line or that we feel.in thr Wheel is a Game Produeced Effect??? Just Double Checking im getting the Message right
tennenbaum
10-06-2016, 11:21
The outcome of multipliers in this FFB system is nothing new to me but such an extreme isn´t really daily business.
Now, even with this extreme there is no signal to noise issue noticeable, no little extra spikes on the waveform or something strange on the wheel.
This could mean noise actually isn´t added or the resolution of monitor and wheel isn´t adequate to show. IMO FFB feels identical with either setting.
BTW as there´s no value limitation with tweaker files I have set the correct Fy value of 0.044.
Great. Thanks for testing!!
That's really interesting. I didn't expect it, but glad to know now. (Looks like as if SMS wrote pretty performant code... ;-)
Great. Thanks for testing!!
That's really interesting. I didn't expect it, but glad to know now. (Looks like as if SMS wrote pretty performant code... ;-)
WOW , you guys just blow my mind .
Really wish i understood how to implement all this information .
Cool use of a word thats not in the dictionary , lol , but soon will be i guess .;-)
WOW , you guys just blow my mind .
Really wish i understood how to implement all this information .
Cool use of a word thats not in the dictionary , lol , but soon will be i guess .;-)
Kind of makes me wish I was a sound engineer. lol They keep coming up with new ways to test and prove theories.
Off topic but I love summer time at the shop. Ive got a 68 amx, 63 galaxie 500 convertible, 68 mustang and a few others in for repairs. Way more fun then fixing a Hyundai.lol
Mechanical or paint and panel ?
Those Hyundai's are a technical marvel . lol
Mechanical or paint and panel ?
Those Hyundai's are a technical marvel . lol
On the old stuff we can do anything. We have done complete restorations and totally custom builds. Doing a chopped 50 chevy panel for my uncle right now.The new cars I don't want to get involved with paint work. Nobody wants to pay for it.
Jack Spade
10-06-2016, 12:49
Does This Mean that Every Little Spike we see in the FFB Line or that we feel.in thr Wheel is a Game Produeced Effect??? Just Double Checking im getting the Message right
Every spike you see and feel is game produced which raises the question is it a wanted or unwanted spike, Fx/Mz grinding for instance is something
I don´t want, don´t know about you.
GrimeyDog
10-06-2016, 12:56
On the old stuff we can do anything. We have done complete restorations and totally custom builds. Doing a chopped 50 chevy panel for my uncle right now.The new cars I don't want to get involved with paint work. Nobody wants to pay for it.
That's Exactly why i stopped doing Auto mechanics!!! No one wants to pay!!! FOH
BTW Hyundai really hurt the average auto mechanic... They were the Cheapest car on the market but the first to have a 10yr bumper to bumper 100,000 mile warrenty... cars costing 3x as much only had 3yr 36 WTF:confused:
That's Exactly why i stopped doing Auto mechanics!!! No one wants to pay!!! FOH
BTW Hyundai really hurt the average auto mechanic... They were the Cheapest car on the market but the first to have a 10yr bumper to bumper 100,000 mile warrenty... cars costing 3x as much only had 3yr 36 WTF:confused:
The repairs aren't bad but paint work is another story. Nobody understands there is a right way and the other way. They just want sort of shiny paint in most cases on daily drivers and they are happy. I'm not putting my name on stuff that looks like you finished the body work in 80 grit.lol
GrimeyDog
10-06-2016, 13:24
The repairs aren't bad but paint work is another story. Nobody understands there is a right way and the other way. They just want sort of shiny paint in most cases on daily drivers and they are happy. I'm not putting my name on stuff that looks like you finished the body work in 80 grit.lol
I understand that!!! My 350z is Pearl white... that's a 3 part paint process!!! base, pearl, clear coat... paint is still 98% mint condition!!! i don't even bother to try and fix the little chips, scratches just too expensive for that with all the blending that has to be done to match the paint... i might as well paint the whole car if i need to.... When i paint it I'm going All the way!!! looking to get a pearl white to Black flip if it can be done:confused: with the Grim reaper with flames coming from the eyes and mouth on the Hood that wraps from the full front and gradually fades to smoke as it travels the body of the car.... Yup i know its going to be expensive!!!
I understand that!!! My 350z is Pearl white... that's a 3 part paint process!!! base, pearl, clear coat... paint is still 98% mint condition!!! i don't even bother to try and fix the little chips, scratches just too expensive for that with all the blending that has to be done to match the paint... i might as well paint the whole car if i need to.... When i paint it I'm going All the way!!! looking to get a pearl white to Black flip if it can be done:confused: with the Grim reaper with flames coming from the eyes and mouth on the Hood that wraps from the full front and gradually fades to smoke as it travels the body of the car.... Yup i know its going to be expensive!!!
Id plan on 10k plus.lol Most guys don't even want to do complete paint jobs anymore because it takes so long to do right. Especially color changes. You have to remove everything to do it the right way. Then the cost of the paint is stupid now. Its not uncommon to pay 125 at cost or more a quart and you still need all the hardeners,reducers and clearcoat which then need its own reducers and hardeners. Easy couple thousand just in materials if you use quality paints.
Back in your bubble i think . Grimm reaper , lol .
GrimeyDog
10-06-2016, 13:43
Back in your bubble i think . Grimm reaper , lol .
Yup... I'm going to get it the same as my tatoo on My chest.
I painted my Datsun 1200 with $2 mat black spray cans , looked ..... a million bucks . That was a 3 part paint process . Spray , drink , Spray .
Always gets attention , not always good .
Yup... I'm going to get it the same as my tatoo on My chest.
Life choices i guess .
GrimeyDog
10-06-2016, 14:11
I painted my Datsun 1200 with $2 mat black spray cans , looked ..... a million bucks . That was a 3 part paint process . Spray , drink , Spray .
Always gets attention , not always good .
I had a 1979 Buick Regal i painted like that!!! The chrome rims and Bumpers made the Primer Matt Black look hot!!!
I put a chevy 400 Small Block in it, 400 power glide transmission with a stall converter and shift kit with some 373 Grs in the rear end... That car was a beast!!! I had some work in the motor it would chip the tires going through the gears just because!!! only problem was the police!!! they hear the tires chirp even if i wasn't speeding and here come the ticket!!!
I painted my Datsun 1200 with $2 mat black spray cans , looked ..... a million bucks . That was a 3 part paint process . Spray , drink , Spray .
Always gets attention , not always good .
lmao
I had a 1979 Buick Regal i painted like that!!! The chrome rims and Bumpers made the Primer Matt Black look hot!!!
I put a chevy 400 Small Block in it, 400 power glide transmission with a stall converter and shift kit with some 373 Grs in the rear end... That car was a beast!!! I had some work in the motor it would chip the tires going through the gears just because!!! only problem was the police!!! they hear the tires chirp even if i wasn't speeding and here come the ticket!!!
How about a winter car with a 2 stage nitrous kit?:D Yep I did. 200hp worth of it. Basically all the stuff I had laying around the garage. 400 small block ,fuelie heads,3.73s,mild cam, 11 inch convertor and nitrous. A lot of fun and yes I drove it year round.
tennenbaum
10-06-2016, 15:42
WOW , you guys just blow my mind .
Really wish i understood how to implement all this information .
Cool use of a word thats not in the dictionary , lol , but soon will be i guess .;-)
:o we Germans have funny words... mixed it up... first grimey comes out of the closet, now tennenbaum shows off with fancy powerspeak... lol
GrimeyDog
10-06-2016, 18:56
:o we Germans have funny words... mixed it up... first grimey comes out of the closet, now tennenbaum shows off with fancy powerspeak... lol
I'm out of the closet using the tools feeling sooo free and liberated:triumphant:
I'm out of the closet using the tools feeling sooo free and liberated:triumphant:
I read Scoop free! :D
What I wanted to be clarified is how do we interpret the force curves at FCM. For a long time I was only looking at the fat blue line, the end result. It never occured I should be looking at the changed individual force curves. The thing is, when you are using more than one modifier and you are looking at the thinner line force changes, how do you combine them and how does that inform you? I mean, if you use a high DRR like most t300 require and then go ahead and use SK-SR, the final force line changes to a linear shape, but the individual force curves show the difference. Should we be looking at those independent force lines at all? Or only the final one? And when you factor in SoftClipping what happens then?? If I try to combine them all I end up with something like SoftHalf 3.60 - SoftFull 2.20
The thin lines are showing what is happening to the force curve itself at the various stages of processing, starting with Soft Clip. The output from here goes straight into Scoop which in turn feeds into Deadzone Removal. The blue line shows how your wheel responds to the forces that come out at the end. This is the only one that you really need to pay any attention to.
Soft Clipping isn't very intuitive and I probably need to take the time to better document how to use it in FCM. Briefly, there are 2 main approaches - Signal shaping and anti-clipping.
With signal shaping, you should only use the Half Input setting to adjust the shape of the curve. The Full Output setting MUST match or at least be very close to the maximum force that is coming out of the Relative Adjust module. This is obviously dependent on your TF, Master scales etc. For the vast majority of existing FFB tunes, you'll want Full Output set to 1.0.
If the idea is to prevent or limit clipping, then you'll want Full output higher. You can then shape the curve to create a shallow falloff approaching those higher force levels. This is kinda tricky to do well.
Hope that helps.
Great. Thanks for testing!!
That's really interesting. I didn't expect it, but glad to know now. (Looks like as if SMS wrote pretty performant code... ;-)
My results mirrored Jack's. I couldn't detect any significant difference in the wheel or the telemetry.
I also tried passing a very narrow range of forces through to Soft Clip and scaled them back up there. Again, no discernable difference. This was a bit of a surprise to me.
MarkyboyUK
11-06-2016, 12:13
A few questions for you guys who use the FCM tool and also use a T300RS wheel on the PS4. As far as I can tell, both the Thrustmaster control panel (on PC) and the Project Cars game (on PS4) default to 900 degrees of rotation (as does the FCM tool?). Are you guys changing the Thustmaster Control panel setting to 1080 degrees prior to running the FCM tool and are you also using the T300 mode button to set the wheel to 1080 degrees each time you start the game up on PS4? or do you just use the T300 with 900 degrees of rotation? Do you recalibrate the wheel in the game every time you start it?
Thanks
spacepadrille
11-06-2016, 13:50
A few questions for you guys who use the FCM tool and also use a T300RS wheel on the PS4. As far as I can tell, both the Thrustmaster control panel (on PC) and the Project Cars game (on PS4) default to 900 degrees of rotation (as does the FCM tool?). Are you guys changing the Thustmaster Control panel setting to 1080 degrees prior to running the FCM tool and are you also using the T300 mode button to set the wheel to 1080 degrees each time you start the game up on PS4? or do you just use the T300 with 900 degrees of rotation? Do you recalibrate the wheel in the game every time you start it?
Thanks
I had the same questions a few weeks ago. After testing a lot, it appears to me that it's more simple to calibrate the wheel to 900°, to use the wheel at 900°, and to test with FCM also at 900°. I didn't notice any important difference between using the wheel at 900° or 1080° in PCARS.
tennenbaum
11-06-2016, 14:06
My results mirrored Jack's. I couldn't detect any significant difference in the wheel or the telemetry.
I also tried passing a very narrow range of forces through to Soft Clip and scaled them back up there. Again, no discernable difference. This was a bit of a surprise to me.
Thanks for testing!
So it seems the headroom >1.00 - 2.00 gives some more room for shaping the signal, than using only the 0.00 - 1.00 range, but it doesn't serve for achieving a better differentiation (details).
And the headroom >2.00 - 20.00 seems to be just a luxury? I know with high soft clipper half and soft clipper full values you can manipulate the i/o curve shape in this high areas of the headroom, but i can't see any benefit to do so. Or do you have an idea what could be done with it?
Thanks for testing!
So it seems the headroom >1.00 - 2.00 gives some more room for shaping the signal, than using only the 0.00 - 1.00 range, but it doesn't serve for achieving a better differentiation (details).
And the headroom >2.00 - 20.00 seems to be just a luxury? I know with high soft clipper half and soft clipper full values you can manipulate the i/o curve shape in this high areas of the headroom, but i can't see any benefit to do so. Or do you have an idea what could be done with it?
Well, it's probably to give the possibility to someone, who may not care about clipping some forces. Who wants to have strong low to mid forces.
GrimeyDog
11-06-2016, 22:26
Ok... Now that most have found their FFB sweet Spot...Who has the Next Idea on what we should be exploring...Im Lost with the Soft/High Clip settings i have Not spent any time trying to Figure it out... Not sure if i Need to being My Tweek is Relative system based... Not even sure if i can use the 3 systems together...If that is possible based on the settings i use any 1 have good Numbers that i should use to test??? I wouldn't even know where to start.
Thanks for testing!
So it seems the headroom >1.00 - 2.00 gives some more room for shaping the signal, than using only the 0.00 - 1.00 range, but it doesn't serve for achieving a better differentiation (details).
And the headroom >2.00 - 20.00 seems to be just a luxury? I know with high soft clipper half and soft clipper full values you can manipulate the i/o curve shape in this high areas of the headroom, but i can't see any benefit to do so. Or do you have an idea what could be done with it?
My guess is that it's nothing more than a result of SMS providing maximum possible configurability. Just about every component in the chain has room for extreme settings that don't have real application.
I may be on the outer here but I think they need to rethink the entire FFB interface for PCars 2. It's just way too complex for the vast majority of gamers. From a programmers perspective it's a powerful and elegant system (aside from the introduction of variable Steering Gain settings back in v2 :p) but as a game interface it's too much. IMO they need to abstract all the ugly details of these algorithms away behind a much simpler, well documented interface.
My guess is that it's nothing more than a result of SMS providing maximum possible configurability. Just about every component in the chain has room for extreme settings that don't have real application.
I may be on the outer here but I think they need to rethink the entire FFB interface for PCars 2. It's just way too complex for the vast majority of gamers. From a programmers perspective it's a powerful and elegant system (aside from the introduction of variable Steering Gain settings back in v2 :p) but as a game interface it's too much. IMO they need to abstract all the ugly details of these algorithms away behind a much simpler, well documented interface.
Elegant is a good word to describe it. I actually hope they don't at this point. We know how to make it work now and I think going to a simpler system like dirt rally uses wont give you the flexibility you have now. Maybe include some of the baselines from the forum would be better then changing it. The hardest part is finding the correct settings so you can feel everything without exaggerating or losing forces. Its truly amazing how much detail you can feel when you get it right. I had some of the best racing last night in any racing game I have ever played. Some I won some I didn't but trying for those last few spots right up to the last corner was awesome!
Elegant is a good word to describe it. I actually hope they don't at this point. We know how to make it work now and I think going to a simpler system like dirt rally uses wont give you the flexibility you have now. Maybe include some of the baselines from the forum would be better then changing it. The hardest part is finding the correct settings so you can feel everything without exaggerating or losing forces. Its truly amazing how much detail you can feel when you get it right. I had some of the best racing last night in any racing game I have ever played. Some I won some I didn't but trying for those last few spots right up to the last corner was awesome!
I agree. Presets would be great for new comers, but if they lock out the existing controls, it would be seem limiting to a lot of returning players.
Speaking of good races. I raced a 5 lap Nordschleife Combine yesterday. Qualified 2nd or 3rd our of 16 with one hot lap, then dropped to like 11th after a first turn cluster. Made my way back up to 2nd by the start of lap 3, but then dropped to 6th after pitting. By the end of lap 3, I was 3rd, and then to my surprise, shot to 1st at the start of lap 5, because the leaders hadn't pitted. We started with 16+ drivers. By the end of the race there were only 3 drivers left, with about 7-10 seconds between 1st and 2nd, and 5 between 2nd and 3rd (not much of a gap on the Nords...LOL), and awesome to be that close after about 45 minutes in the combine with one pit stop. Great f'ing race! I've actually had some pretty good public races with weekend. More enjoyable than normal. :)
spacepadrille
12-06-2016, 17:15
Elegant is a good word to describe it. I actually hope they don't at this point. We know how to make it work now and I think going to a simpler system like dirt rally uses wont give you the flexibility you have now. Maybe include some of the baselines from the forum would be better then changing it. The hardest part is finding the correct settings so you can feel everything without exaggerating or losing forces. Its truly amazing how much detail you can feel when you get it right. I had some of the best racing last night in any racing game I have ever played. Some I won some I didn't but trying for those last few spots right up to the last corner was awesome!
Hi morpwr ! As you know, I'm a huge fan of your settings. Can you please publish your actual ones ? Mine are adapted from your's a long time ago, and with the new CFM1.2 we all have new SK and SR values, and that changed a lot the global force of the wheel. So I'm very curious to see and try what you are running today as FFB settings ;-)
Edit : Speaking of DiRT, except the lack of braking feel, it's really possible to have a very goof FFB with the available sliders. Not as good as PCARS, but it's going so fast that it's ok :-)
Hi morpwr ! As you know, I'm a huge fan of your settings. Can you please publish your actual ones ? Mine are adapted from your's a long time ago, and with the new CFM1.2 we all have new SK and SR values, and that changed a lot the global force of the wheel. So I'm very curious to see and try what you are running today as FFB settings ;-)
Edit : Speaking of DiRT, except the lack of braking feel, it's really possible to have a very goof FFB with the available sliders. Not as good as PCARS, but it's going so fast that it's ok :-)
Actually a few people have asked that. Ive been playing with the scoops quite a bit over the last week. Ive run tests on the fcm from 68 -77 for the master and the numbers all are similar. Not really as big of an adjustment as I would have thought. The one thing I did find is the t300 will calculate high if its cool. Like in an air conditioned room. I ran the test a few times to check it and they were the same every time the a/c was on. So it was repeatable. Sk pretty much doesn't move a whole lot with a range between 81-85 that seems to work well. One thing I did notice is above 83 the force curve drops off pretty quick at the top of the scale on the fcm. Sr has a little more room 41-48. I was trying to find the best balance between corning forces,braking,grip and road feel when playing around with the numbers. Ill have to check my numbers i don't remember where i ended up now but i was pretty happy with the balance.
spacepadrille
12-06-2016, 19:59
Yes, thanks for reply, morpwr. As you, I noticed a bigger variance in the SR results than SK. Numbers are similar to your's. And since summer is coming (I'm in the south of France), my DR has grew from 0.09 to 0.11... I switch between DR 0.11 with wheel sensibility 60 to DR 0.10 with wheel sensibility 70. Are you still running FF 68 ? I'm now between 72 and 75. That's why I asked your values, it will be a good guidance for me at this point.
Yes, thanks for reply, morpwr. As you, I noticed a bigger variance in the SR results than SK. Numbers are similar to your's. And since summer is coming (I'm in the south of France), my DR has grew from 0.09 to 0.11... I switch between DR 0.11 with wheel sensibility 60 to DR 0.10 with wheel sensibility 70. Are you still running FF 68 ? I'm now between 72 and 75. That's why I asked your values, it will be a good guidance for me at this point.
Yes I'm still at 68. I tried raising it and some of the cars just felt way to heavy to me especially with the new scoop values. I'm at 60 also for sensitivity and drr at .10. Ive been trying some very different cars to see what they feel like. So far so good. Even the focus and clio felt good. The rear grip was fine with default values and just dropped air pressures a little. Usually you hear a lot of complaints about those two cars. Obviously I tried the usual fa,ruf ,mustang gt and my new favorite 49c. Ran a bunch of races at Sonoma last night because its a very good track for checking the car getting light and heavy like in the 2nd and 3rd turn plus you have a lot of uneven road sections you should be able to feel. The scoops have a huge effect on what you think youre feeling. From rear grip, weight transfer,braking feel and everything else the game can produce.
New values are posted on the Oscarolim site.:D
spacepadrille
13-06-2016, 00:21
New values are posted on the Oscarolim site.:D
GREAT ! :D
Elegant is a good word to describe it. I actually hope they don't at this point. We know how to make it work now and I think going to a simpler system like dirt rally uses wont give you the flexibility you have now. Maybe include some of the baselines from the forum would be better then changing it. The hardest part is finding the correct settings so you can feel everything without exaggerating or losing forces. Its truly amazing how much detail you can feel when you get it right. I had some of the best racing last night in any racing game I have ever played. Some I won some I didn't but trying for those last few spots right up to the last corner was awesome!
I agree. Presets would be great for new comers, but if they lock out the existing controls, it would be seem limiting to a lot of returning players.
Indeed, I'm not so much advocating dropping existing functionality, just wrapping it in a more user friendly interface.
For example, the signal shaping properties of both Soft Clip and Scoop could be exposed as a single 'Definition bias' slider. All the way to left provides better definition at low force levels and all the way to the right provides better definition at high force levels. You'd need to accompany that with something like a bias aggression slider, but behind the scenes these could drive the same Scoop and SC shaping algorithms. This would provide users with the same kind of functionality in a much more intuitive interface without having to concern themselves with Scoop Knees, Half Inputs and the like.
Whatever the case, I'm interested to see what direction SMS will take. I'd be very surprised if we get exactly the same system given the volume of complaints regarding complexity and in-depth discussions trying to get to the bottom of it all.
GREAT ! :D
Let me know what you think. I think these are the most balanced so far. Had some fun with the Clio cup tonight at brands hatch Indy. Usually not one of my better tracks with the old scoops.that first downhill corner was really hard to feel grip. No problem now.
Morpwr are you using the rim that comes with the t300 or a different size rim? I'm using your settings and they feel great. im using 60 ffb at the moment and that almost feels a bit strong 58 ffb feels good. Each time I play I increase the ffb by 2 started at 50 ffb but I can't seam to get to 68 ffb like you with out it feeling to strong. I might just be used to weaker ffb then you.
spacepadrille
13-06-2016, 08:04
Let me know what you think. I think these are the most balanced so far. Had some fun with the Clio cup tonight at brands hatch Indy. Usually not one of my better tracks with the old scoops.that first downhill corner was really hard to feel grip. No problem now.
Finally there where only two differences between your last settings and mine : FF (you 68, me 72), and SR (you 0.47, me 0.46). I think I was running FF high because of the RUF. With the 49C (nice car ;-) 68-70 is more appropriate. I have to check now with other cars. I think FF 68 is good for open wheels, maybe a bit more for the GT's ?
For the SR, my laptimes and global feeling are better with 0.46 than 0.47. It's incredible a single click can make such difference. That mean I think that we are close to the optimal balance of the whole settings for our wheels.
Thanks again for sharing !
spacepadrille
13-06-2016, 08:05
Morpwr are you using the rim that comes with the t300 or a different size rim? I'm using your settings and they feel great. im using 60 ffb at the moment and that almost feels a bit strong 58 ffb feels good. Each time I play I increase the ffb by 2 started at 50 ffb but I can't seam to get to 68 ffb like you with out it feeling to strong. I might just be used to weaker ffb then you.
I think he uses the 599XX evo rim. So do I :-)
tennenbaum
13-06-2016, 08:07
Morpwr are you using the rim that comes with the t300 or a different size rim? I'm using your settings and they feel great. im using 60 ffb at the moment and that almost feels a bit strong 58 ffb feels good. Each time I play I increase the ffb by 2 started at 50 ffb but I can't seam to get to 68 ffb like you with out it feeling to strong. I might just be used to weaker ffb then you.
i use the 30cm diameter Thrustmaster Evo 599. Even with this larger rim i found FFB >60 pretty strong for longer sessions. Sometimes i dialed FFB down to 45, or 55. When you found your preferred settings, IMO you can use the FFB slider like a volume knob to your daily taste. I didn't even correct the Deadzone Removal when lowering the FFB. I know this is a bit sloppy and not totally according to the "rules of the book", but the characteristic of the wheel stays the same this way, just everything less strong in terms of absolute torgue.
To get an idea about how such settings relate to steering forces in reality, see this post: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1283761&viewfull=1#post1283761
GrimeyDog
13-06-2016, 10:29
Ok so i played with the Tools a bit over the weekend... But No Matter what Scoop #'s the tool Gave i find that My Scoop Values of 68/24 Feel the Best... Especialy the Scoop Knee of 68... anything over 68 for Me the Rear end of the Car starts to Feel Very Heavy like im Dragging it around the Corner... I cant remember the exact #'s the calculator gave but they were within + or - 12 of what i had tweeked in by feel... End Result is i will Stay with My original Scoop settings of 68/24.
Morpwr are you using the rim that comes with the t300 or a different size rim? I'm using your settings and they feel great. im using 60 ffb at the moment and that almost feels a bit strong 58 ffb feels good. Each time I play I increase the ffb by 2 started at 50 ffb but I can't seam to get to 68 ffb like you with out it feeling to strong. I might just be used to weaker ffb then you.
I have the 599 wheel so that will probably account for some of the difference because its bigger. If I remember I was around that with the smaller wheel. If you like it there and it feels good I wouldn't worry about it.
Finally there where only two differences between your last settings and mine : FF (you 68, me 72), and SR (you 0.47, me 0.46). I think I was running FF high because of the RUF. With the 49C (nice car ;-) 68-70 is more appropriate. I have to check now with other cars. I think FF 68 is good for open wheels, maybe a bit more for the GT's ?
For the SR, my laptimes and global feeling are better with 0.46 than 0.47. It's incredible a single click can make such difference. That mean I think that we are close to the optimal balance of the whole settings for our wheels.
Thanks again for sharing !
I played with sr between 46 and 48 and split the difference. Both had better feel in some areas and less in others so 47 it was.lol Yes it was down to one click adjustments for me at this point. My biggest thing was not losing anything and keeping the good grip feel. My laptimes aren't much different either way but its more comfortable at 48 but you lost some grip feel over sr at 46. It was down to the point I was really nit picking the settings. My laptimes at brands hatch indy with the focus and clio where in the top 10 and 20 pc times in races so the settings work. I haven't really used either of those cars much before so it was nice to see some good times on a track I never really enjoyed before.
Ok so i played with the Tools a bit over the weekend... But No Matter what Scoop #'s the tool Gave i find that My Scoop Values of 68/24 Feel the Best... Especialy the Scoop Knee of 68... anything over 68 for Me the Rear end of the Car starts to Feel Very Heavy like im Dragging it around the Corner... I cant remember the exact #'s the calculator gave but they were within + or - 12 of what i had tweeked in by feel... End Result is i will Stay with My original Scoop settings of 68/24.
Did you change both numbers together. The knee will do weird things to the ffb if its way off with the reduction. Its way more complicated than higher does this and lower does that. You can easily lose forces altogether or exaggerate certain ones when moving them just a little bit. In simple terms to get people started the descriptions we have been using work but its not quite that easy.
i use the 30cm diameter Thrustmaster Evo 599. Even with this larger rim i found FFB >60 pretty strong for longer sessions. Sometimes i dialed FFB down to 45, or 55. When you found your preferred settings, IMO you can use the FFB slider like a volume knob to your daily taste. I didn't even correct the Deadzone Removal when lowering the FFB. I know this is a bit sloppy and not totally according to the "rules of the book", but the characteristic of the wheel stays the same this way, just everything less strong in terms of absolute torgue.
To get an idea about how such settings relate to steering forces in reality, see this post: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1283761&viewfull=1#post1283761
That's why I usually just tell everyone to set it to whatever feels comfortable. That really comes down to the person. I tried to find a weight I thought was close to what I would expect from the real cars I have driven that are in the game when setting mine.
Did you change both numbers together. The knee will do weird things to the ffb if its way off with the reduction. Its way more complicated than higher does this and lower does that. You can easily lose forces altogether or exaggerate certain ones when moving them just a little bit. In simple terms to get people started the descriptions we have been using work but its not quite that easy.
I turned off the Scoops all together. The wheel test pretty close to linear, but the FCM recommends a low knee with a little bit of reduction and DRR. I tried it that way, and it felt pretty good. In fact, I ran it that way for more than a week, playing online and in career. But this weekend I went back to no Scoops, and I like the feel a lot better. That being said, with a little deadzone removal, the wheel wasn't that far from linear to begin with.
Ok so i played with the Tools a bit over the weekend... But No Matter what Scoop #'s the tool Gave i find that My Scoop Values of 68/24 Feel the Best... Especialy the Scoop Knee of 68... anything over 68 for Me the Rear end of the Car starts to Feel Very Heavy like im Dragging it around the Corner... I cant remember the exact #'s the calculator gave but they were within + or - 12 of what i had tweeked in by feel... End Result is i will Stay with My original Scoop settings of 68/24.
Like more Morpwr said, i would find it disturbing that a simple press of a button would give better results than 100s hours of minute hand tweaking. You already squeezed everything you could out of the FFB and things were balanced.
Sometimes, moving something, only a little will trow the balance off.
GrimeyDog
13-06-2016, 12:31
Like more Morpwr said, i would find it disturbing that a simple press of a button would give better results than 100s hours of minute hand tweaking. You already squeezed everything you could out of the FFB and things were balanced.
Sometimes, moving something, only a little will trow the balance off.
Agree 100%:yes:
Even + or - 1 can Have a Huge impact on the way things Feel once you have found your FFB Sweet Spot.
GrimeyDog
13-06-2016, 12:36
Did you change both numbers together. The knee will do weird things to the ffb if its way off with the reduction. Its way more complicated than higher does this and lower does that. You can easily lose forces altogether or exaggerate certain ones when moving them just a little bit. In simple terms to get people started the descriptions we have been using work but its not quite that easy.
I tried all the suggested Values the Calculator Gave... Even tried Hand fine tuning them but always ended back at My original #'s... I probably could have Made them work but then i would have to Readjust My Fx,Fy, Fz, Mz & SoP settings just to end up with the same feel... Shrugggs... just made More sense to go back to My #'s that work than to spend the Nexy Month Tweeking to fine tune for Little or No Gain.
I tried all the suggested Values the Calculator Gave... Even tried Hand fine tuning them but always ended back at My original #'s... I probably could have Made them work but then i would have to Readjust My Fx,Fy, Fz, Mz & SoP settings just to end up with the same feel... Shrugggs... just made More sense to go back to My #'s that work than to spend the Nexy Month Tweeking to fine tune for Little or No Gain.
I pretty much figured that would happen. You've tweaked everything to the scoops you've been using for so long so I really didn't expect you would start over.
GrimeyDog
13-06-2016, 19:48
I pretty much figured that would happen. You've tweaked everything to the scoops you've been using for so long so I really didn't expect you would start over.
Everything is a Chain Reaction... When you change 1 thing you may have to Readjust 2 other things to get the Same Balance that you are used to... there are Many ways to get the same Feel using different settings... I went with the way that will allow Maximum FFB strength Flexability per Car by simply + or - with the Car Masters... at Masters 100 the FFB is Strong as it Needs to be but it can be Lowered to be as light as you want it to be.... or you can Crank it up 101+ so you can Really Feel it and get a work out at the same time. LOL
gotdirt410sprintcar
14-06-2016, 02:36
I turned the scoops off too but I did not like it but I didn't give it much time. And I might go back too using soft clipper again. I always liked it anyway force's are not so high and details are better if you get it right.
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