Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1 [Archive] - Page 3

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GrimeyDog

27-12-2015, 03:01

I also have game master FFB set at 35 as per your numbers. Since I'm on Xbox 1 I don't have the FOR setting. I'll try the FZ and SoP reductions to see what happens. I just didn't know if you had run across certain cars that just seem not to want to steer at all on your numbers before.

I just finished testing on XB1 with v2... I will edit the PDF that the XB1 Pcars in Game Master FFB should be set to 30 all other settings can Remain the same.
I think the 7.0 update made the FFB stronger at the master FFB level on XB1... i did notice a Bump up in FFB power on PS4 also but its not as much as it seems to have bumped up on XB1.

Thanx for the Heads up.

Haiden

27-12-2015, 03:58

I tried this on just one car so far the Lotus Type 40 Ford and I get intense shaking when hitting the brakes, so hard that I can't hold the wheel. What needs to be adjusted to stop that?

I don't get any shaking at all. It's actually very smooth. But I this tune was created on PS4, and like I said, Xb1 and PS4 have different FFB. Try lowering the Fx scale, though. It might help. If not, then lower the Master (and correlating SoP Scale). If lowering the master scales works, you can always increase the strength with the wheel's FF setting, once you've worked the shaking out of your in-car scales.

Eventually, I'll tune up the FFB on Xb1, but I don't know when. Right now, I only play Forza on Xb1.

GrimeyDog

27-12-2015, 04:29

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9B6161080629477C!167&authkey=!ANzrngv70Hqixp8&ithint=video%2cmp4

This is a clip from the one drive on XB1...Watkins glen short i use the Same exact Tweek on XB1 that i use on PS4... seems that the Pcars updates have changed the FFB Masters very slightly...Now the Popper in game Master FFB For PS4 is still 35.... And the In Mame Master FFB for XB1 is Now 30

Same Good FFB Feel Both systems and the FFB Graph is Identical

Haiden

27-12-2015, 05:44

Unfortunately I'm finding that out. I think what I need to do for now is to totally abandon those cars that just won't steer at all until some numbers come out for Xbox and the V2 that are usable across the board. I can just run prototypes, GT3, and GT4 for now.

I tried that Ford--didn't get any shaking, even under heavy braking and trail braking. The car feels heavy, and it did seem to want to pull a bit under hard braking, but not violently, and it was just for the initial fractions of a second during heavy braking--weight transfer. I didn't feel anything like what you described on the PS4. But I think Grimey is right about the patch. That's not the first time I've heard that come up about Xb1. I think it was the same on PS4, maybe to a lesser degree, though. I didn't notice because my CSW-v2 came the day after the patch, never really got any time with it on 6.0.

P1ckN1cker2406

27-12-2015, 09:10

The FFB on Xb1 and PS4 is not the same, the exact same settings will produce different results between consoles.

Difference between XB1 and PC is even worse. FFB on PC feels completely different than it feels on XB1. Would be interesting why there is such a difference?

ProDriver

27-12-2015, 09:24

I am delighted With @GrimeyDog set up, thank you mate, and the rest of you who had helped me to enjoy that game.

GrimeyDog

27-12-2015, 16:02

Difference between XB1 and PC is even worse. FFB on PC feels completely different than it feels on XB1. Would be interesting why there is such a difference?

IMO The Difference is the in Game Master FFB... XB1 Game Master FFB Seems to Have a Greater effect on at the Wheel Power.... I think the XB1 has a Stronger FFB output due to the New FFB protocol that M$ put into the XB1 IMO just to invalidate the older wheels from working... I Have yet to feel the benefit or beauty of the New FFB Protocol that the XB1 uses...How ever it is and has alway been Notably Stronger at Lower Levels... Ex: XB1 Game Master @50 feels like PS4 75 to 100.... Not Crisper/Sharper just stronger in a blunt Brute force aspect.... But using My Tweek i can get the same FFB Feel from both PS4(35) and XB1(30) with the V2 wheel with the Correct in Game Master FFB that is Noted for the wheel....
XB1 TX 458 in Game FFB Level 65

Short Video V2 Watkins Glen Short XB1 HUD Telemetry
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9B6161080629477C!167&authkey=!ANzrngv70Hqixp8&ithint=video%2cmp4

XB1 PCars Has Finaly caught up it Looks and Feels just as Good as PS4 PCars... Matter of Fact the XB1 Tire Model Feels better than the PS4 it still has Grip like XB1 is on 6.0

Jezza819

27-12-2015, 21:58

I tried that Ford--didn't get any shaking, even under heavy braking and trail braking. The car feels heavy, and it did seem to want to pull a bit under hard braking, but not violently, and it was just for the initial fractions of a second during heavy braking--weight transfer. I didn't feel anything like what you described on the PS4. But I think Grimey is right about the patch. That's not the first time I've heard that come up about Xb1. I think it was the same on PS4, maybe to a lesser degree, though. I didn't notice because my CSW-v2 came the day after the patch, never really got any time with it on 6.0.

I didn't try any other cars once that happened and I should have just to check something else out. I know I had similar trouble on my Thrustmaster wheel in Formula A when the speed would get upwards of 170MPH. The wheel would shake violently from side to side. I think someone helped me with that by lowering one of those spring numbers but I can't remember which one it was. If I get the chance today I'll plug your numbers back in and try something else and report back my findings.

Here's where I wish I had someone to video things so I could have a visual record of things that happen.

GrimeyDog

28-12-2015, 00:51

GrimeyDog

28-12-2015, 14:41

Over the weekend i was Testing the V2 on PS4 & XB1 i can say for sure the XB1 Game Master FFB is Stronger and has a Greater impact on at the wheel FFB Strength... Not Stronger in as you feel more FFB effects it feels stronger as in a Brute Force way...Must be the Supposedly New FFB System they Created to stop the older wheels from working...I dunno...I can use my Same Tweek and the FFB Feel is Good and feels the same.... The XB1 i Have to set the in Game Master FFB at 30 and the PS4 i set it to 35 or even 40 for days im Feeling extra Strong and need to Crank it up a bit... LOL
When using TX wheel on My other XB1 set up i use My same Tweek and set In Game Master FFB to 65 and FFB is very similar to the FFB i get with the V2.

Short Video of XB1 and V2 wheel Testing this weekend showing the FFB Graph

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=video%2cmp4

Yes i can Clearly Feel every Line in the FFB Graph....WoooHooo!!! Feels Nice especially in the in Car View with Camera Shake on!!!

FFB Graph on XB1 Looks same as PS4.
IMO once you have your Global and in Car FFB settings the way you Like the Difference between the Systems is where the in Game Master FFB Needs to be set for the Final at the wheel FFB strength.
in this case i was Cross testing the V2 PS4 vs XB1
Second test was TX458 vs the V2 XB1 only.

all Test used the same Global and in Car Settings and Showed the Same Results in the FFB Graph with Very Similar FFB Feel. Each wheel Needed its Own In Game Master FFB level to bring out the best Feel...There is more than likely a Difference in the Wheel FW between Fanatec and Thrustmaster that would explain why some forces may be felt differently between the V2 and TX wheel but both wheels gave Good Feel with same Tweek used.

IMO XB1 PCars Has caught up to PS4 PCars it plays just as Good from what ive seen... But I Have spent more time on the PS4 PCars so i cant say that XB1 PCars is 100% where PS4 version is. I will spend more time on XB1 an post my findings.

GrimeyDog

28-12-2015, 15:48

Now More than ever after recent Testing with CSW v2, TX 458, and T150 wheel(I dont own the T150 but this is the 3rd time spent a Few hours in Private Chat helping to get it Tweeked with Great Results) i am Convinced that there is No Valid Reason to Try and Calculate Spindle Forces.... it serves to Reason that those forces have been Pre Programmed into the Game at a Set Nominal Value that you can + or - with your in Car FFB Settings... You just Simply Need to set the Global for How Sharp or Dull you like your High and Low end FFB to be...Set your in Car Masters (I use 100) then set Fy, Fx etc and Sop settings to Match what you most want to Feel most in the FFB.

IMO the only difference between wheels is going to be How Much Dead Zone Removal/Fall Off and How Much PWMS you will Need to add to Match your wheel.

I dont use Half/Full Clip but these can be adjusted to Taste if Needed to Sharpen Low forces and Dull the High Forces... IMO this setting is Very Dependent on How you Have Set your Global Settings.

The PCars FFB Mystery is Not as Comicated as it once seemed... There are just Too Many settings that can be seen... Most of them should have been Hidden behind a advanced settings Tab!!! We see More Sliders and want to use them All but in the case of PCars FFB Less = More...JMO

With the Plug and play Nature of Consoles and yes PC Too... See it for what it is...Its only a Game...I say Take a Few Steps Back and Regroup... then go back to it with a Simple approach its Not as Complicated as its being Made out to be. JMT

poirqc

28-12-2015, 16:04

Haiden

28-12-2015, 16:56

The Formula A Cars IMO the car set ups or something is Broken... only way to Drive them without oscillation is to drive the stock in car FFB set up.... I Do have a Formula A set up that i'm working on but its not perfected yet.

I can drive every Formula car with my tweek except Formula A .... I have Tested Most of the cars in the game PS4 & XB1 and they all work well with My Global Tweek and in car FFB Settings.... I use same in Car FFB settings for every car... All Feel Great and Still maintain their own Driving Characteristics.

That was the main issue for me when I tried your settings. Formula A is my main/favorite car. So my settings have to work with that first, and then transfer to other cars. I've made some tweaks to my settings over the weekend. I needed more TF, because I wasn't feeling the same range with the other settings. Hard to describe, the wheel was communicating grip well, but lacked...texture, I guess I call it. I think I've got that back now. I'll post an update later. I brought your Scoop settings into my tune and experimented with that for a while. Still not sure whether I like those better or the default. It's my last thing to figure out.

Now More than ever after recent Testing with CSW v2, TX 458, and T150 wheel(I dont own the T150 but this is the 3rd time spent a Few hours in Private Chat helping to get it Tweeked with Great Results) i am Convinced that there is No Valid Reason to Try and Calculate Spindle Forces.... it serves to Reason that those forces have been Pre Programmed into the Game at a Set Nominal Value that you can + or - with your in Car FFB Settings... You just Simply Need to set the Global for How Sharp or Dull you like your High and Low end FFB to be...Set your in Car Masters (I use 100) then set Fy, Fx etc and Sop settings to Match what you most want to Feel most in the FFB.

IMO the only difference between wheels is going to be How Much Dead Zone Removal/Fall Off and How Much PWMS you will Need to add to Match your wheel.

I dont use Half/Full Clip but these can be adjusted to Taste if Needed to Sharpen Low forces and Dull the High Forces... IMO this setting is Very Dependent on How you Have Set your Global Settings.

The PCars FFB Mystery is Not as Comicated as it once seemed... There are just Too Many settings that can be seen... Most of them should have been Hidden behind a advanced settings Tab!!! We see More Sliders and want to use them All but in the case of PCars FFB Less = More...JMO

With the Plug and play Nature of Consoles and yes PC Too... See it for what it is...Its only a Game...I say Take a Few Steps Back and Regroup... then go back to it with a Simple approach its Not as Complicated as its being Made out to be. JMT

I think the in-car spindle scales are for fine tuning. The global master FF/TF, and the in-car Master Scales are the multipliers that have the most affect on the output level. But the in-car spindle scales allow you to make finer adjustments. In keeping with the audio analogy... the global FF/TF are like basic tone controls--Bass and Treble. The spindle scales are a multi-band equalizer. And the Master Scales are the final volume control. Now, I know using Tone controls and an EQ aren't the ideal method, but this is just to illustrate the point. Push the basic tones too far, it won't matter how you set the EQ; they'll be too much bass and treble to do any fine tuning. I agree, though...you don't need to make drastic changes to the spindle scales, if you get the right FF/TF balance.

P1ckN1cker2406

28-12-2015, 17:26

GrimeyDog

28-12-2015, 17:28

It's probably better to spend time messing with Fxyz Mz & SoP, and understanding them, then messing with globals. In globals, as soon as you've rules out deadzones and clipping, you'll get diminishing return as you spend more time there.

With that said, balanced globals are a must.

I agree with you that, at least for low end wheels, like my G27, simple settings give better results.

Cheers!

Good Balanced Relative and Scoop settings Global are the Key to Great FFB IMO...the other settings Can be used to Fine Tune every thing Only if you understand them but i would only use them with a High End Gaming PC if i had a Frex, Ecci or Accu Force wheel... i dont think they are Needed with V2 or below wheels and especially Not Needed for Console use.

Haiden

28-12-2015, 17:47

Good Balanced Relative and Scoop settings Global are the Key to Great FFB IMO...the other settings Can be used to Fine Tune every thing Only if you understand them but i would only use them with a High End Gaming PC if i had a Frex, Ecci or Accu Force wheel... i dont think they are Needed with V2 or below wheels and especially Not Needed for Console use.

But then you wouldn't be able to address/solve minor issues in FFB feel. That's what those scales are for. I don't think it matter what wheel you're using. They can all benefit from the finer level of control. I think what matters more is what kind of driver/gamer you are. If you're racing online and/or looking for the absolute best lap time, then you'll probably want to adjust these to your tastes, enhancing certain forces over others to suit your personal style. Doesn't matter what wheel you're using. I feel spindle changes in my T300, just like I do in my CSW-v2. And each wheel requires slightly different settings. The globals wouldn't be enough to account for the differences I feel in the two wheels.

IMO, the globals are settings that could have been canned and hidden, or at least most of them. The in-car FFB scales could have been the globals, and car-level tuning would then just be limited to aero and mechanical tweaks.

I have tested your "Tweak" with the TX Wheel and ingame FFB Master set to 65 and the rest from your PDF. But even the smallest signal is clipping on the Wheel but you can´t see it in the FFB Monitor because it´s Hardware Clipping. Tested with the Ruf GT3 at Watkins Glen. It´s just undrivable with your "Tweak".

Why do you have the in-game FFB Master set to 65? He recommended setting it to 30. You've doubled that, which is probably why you're clipping.

P1ckN1cker2406

28-12-2015, 18:10

But then you wouldn't be able to address/solve minor issues in FFB feel. That's what those scales are for. I don't think it matter what wheel you're using. They can all benefit from the finer level of control. I think what matters more is what kind of driver/gamer you are. If you're racing online and/or looking for the absolute best lap time, then you'll probably want to adjust these to your tastes, enhancing certain forces over others to suit your personal style. Doesn't matter what wheel you're using. I feel spindle changes in my T300, just like I do in my CSW-v2. And each wheel requires slightly different settings. The globals wouldn't be enough to account for the differences I feel in the two wheels.

IMO, the globals are settings that could have been canned and hidden, or at least most of them. The in-car FFB scales could have been the globals, and car-level tuning would then just be limited to aero and mechanical tweaks.

Why do you have the in-game FFB Master set to 65? He recommended setting it to 30. You've doubled that, which is probably why you're clipping.

Read his post. He says he uses 30 for the Fanatec CSW V2 and 65 for the Thrustmaster TX.

This is what he says in the first post of this Page: When using TX wheel on My other XB1 set up i use My same Tweek and set In Game Master FFB to 65 and FFB is very similar to the FFB i get with the V2.

Haiden

28-12-2015, 18:18

Read his post. He says he uses 30 for the Fanatec CSW V2 and 65 for the Thrustmaster TX.

This is what he says in the first post of this Page: When using TX wheel on My other XB1 set up i use My same Tweek and set In Game Master FFB to 65 and FFB is very similar to the FFB i get with the V2.

Oh, wow... I totally missed that. That doesn't make any sense, though, because in those settings the CSW is attenuating the force at the wheel level to 75. So even the in-game 30/35 isn't really being felt at the wheel. So, why would the TX in-game FFB be set to 65, double the CSW setting with no wheel-level attenuation? I think you need to either lower the global FF or your in-car Master Scales, because running FF at 65 on a TX with TF and the in-car masters at 100 is just too much for that wheel. It'd probably be too much for the CSW-v2, as well, if it weren't for the wheel level attenuation.

poirqc

28-12-2015, 18:37

IMO, the globals are settings that could have been canned and hidden, or at least most of them. The in-car FFB scales could have been the globals, and car-level tuning would then just be limited to aero and mechanical tweaks.

For capable wheels(about no deadzone, wide range of available forces), i agree with you that you don't need much and many global tools.

For low end wheels, like my G27, it's pretty hard to have it all. I have to deal with a pretty big deadzone and a low force motor. If i give more "space" to turn ins, i'm tight on mid range loads. If i want to move it much on kerbs, i don't really feel road surface.

At some point, it's all about tradeoffs.

inthebagbud

28-12-2015, 19:07

I must say I am really enjoying the discussion in the thread, but a bit miffed I cant join in as been unable to fire up Pcars for a week and will be another week before I can even sit up for more than half an hour :(....... so hopefully you will all have it sorted for when I can race again:triumphant:

I do notice that you are all mostly using SOP settings and wondered whether any of you had tried without SOP, which is where I was when I last played, as I found it gave a better road feel ?

luv2drive

28-12-2015, 19:12

GrimeyDog

28-12-2015, 19:14

I have tested your "Tweak" with the TX Wheel and ingame FFB Master set to 65 and the rest from your PDF. But even the smallest signal is clipping on the Wheel but you can´t see it in the FFB Monitor because it´s Hardware Clipping. Tested with the Ruf GT3 at Watkins Glen. It´s just undrivable with your "Tweak".

Strange... I dont Feel any at the wheel Clipping... The I can Feel the same Forces in the TX wheel that i do with the V2 but they are just Not as Strong....but No Noticable at the wheel Clipping... I Guess its just a Matter of FFB Taste.

P1ckN1cker2406

28-12-2015, 19:30

Oh, wow... I totally missed that. That doesn't make any sense, though, because in those settings the CSW is attenuating the force at the wheel level to 75. So even the in-game 30/35 isn't really being felt at the wheel. So, why would the TX in-game FFB be set to 65, double the CSW setting with no wheel-level attenuation? I think you need to either lower the global FF or your in-car Master Scales, because running FF at 65 on a TX with TF and the in-car masters at 100 is just too much for that wheel. It'd probably be too much for the CSW-v2, as well, if it weren't for the wheel level attenuation.

Yep that´s correct. Totally agree with that.

P1ckN1cker2406

28-12-2015, 19:33

Strange... I dont Feel any at the wheel Clipping... The I can Feel the same Forces in the TX wheel that i do with the V2 but they are just Not as Strong....but No Noticable at the wheel Clipping... I Guess its just a Matter of FFB Taste.

Nope not a matter of FFB Taste. It´s clipping all the time with that settings. The Motor of the Wheel is always at 100% and it feels like you turn against an Centering Spring. No Road and Bump feel just a heavy centering force.

inthebagbud

28-12-2015, 19:39

Nope not a matter of FFB Taste. It´s clipping all the time with that settings. The Motor of the Wheel is always at 100% and it feels like you turn against an Centering Spring. No Road and Bump feel just a heavy centering force.

I too struggled with the settings and wonder how old everybody's wheel is. Mine is only a few months old having been replaced in September and I had to change my settings when it arrived, so just wondering if they made changes to the bases recently

P1ckN1cker2406

28-12-2015, 19:46

I too struggled with the settings and wonder how old everybody's wheel is. Mine is only a few months old having been replaced in September and I had to change my settings when it arrived, so just wondering if they made changes to the bases recently

Yep mine got replaced a few months ago too.

inthebagbud

28-12-2015, 19:46

Hi. I'm a newbie here and with Project Cars. Just got it for XMAS.

Regarding the FFB, I know there seem to be a myriad of things you can do to "tweak" it, but I agree with the philosophy of GrimeyDog's original post - there should only be one FFB setting as there is only one road.

So, based on that premise, I'm wondering what those settings should be for me and my wheel. I don't think I need to have the n-th level of detail, and I don't really understand what all of the different settings do, but I do want to have a comfortable experience.

I did notice that after my system performed the 7.0 update the wheel became VERY stiff and it took a lot of energy to turn. I did some searching and found that the new default setting for Steering Gain was "3.00", whereas apparently the old default was 1.00. I set mine to 2.00 and things seem better.

What I'm wondering is whether I should be monkeying with other settings or not and/or if there are some other basic settings that are simply bad defaults that almost everyone changes to get a better driving experience.

BTW, I'm using a G29 wheel.

Thanks

My advice would be to have steering gain at 1 and then run a good few hours on the default settings with a couple of car/track combinations just to get used to the wheel feel before changing anything so you have a good idea of how the wheel behaves

The Watkins Glen and Oulton Park are good test tracks as they have a good road feel with a car such as the RUF and something like the rookie which would give totally different driving experiences

There is also a G29 users thread here http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35635-G29-Discussions-Plus-Support-and-Settings/page1 which I would suggest reading as well as you will quickly get lost if you start changing settings to quick

Haiden

28-12-2015, 20:01

Strange... I dont Feel any at the wheel Clipping... The I can Feel the same Forces in the TX wheel that i do with the V2 but they are just Not as Strong....but No Noticable at the wheel Clipping... I Guess its just a Matter of FFB Taste.

I'm confused. You say you're not getting clipping on a TX, using those in-car settings (Masters at 100) with the global FF/TF set to 100/65? Then why do you lower FF to 35 and attenuate the force output at the wheel level when you use the same settings to your CSW-v2? Even if you're not getting clipping on the TX, the CSW-v2 is the stronger wheel, but you're more than doubling the FF on the TX (+30 and no wheel-level attenuation). Am I missing something?

GrimeyDog

28-12-2015, 21:11

Yep mine got replaced a few months ago too.

On my way home before reading the latest post i was wondering the same thing...my TX is from when the XB1 first launched so i guess its at least 2 to 3 years old... i wonder if they changed anything from the time mine was made that's making a difference...also what FW are you using with your TX??? they have 50.b9 FW out now that's the latest TM FW.

I'm confused. You say you're not getting clipping on a TX, using those in-car settings (Masters at 100) with the global FF/TF set to 100/65? Then why do you lower FF to 35 and attenuate the force output at the wheel level when you use the same settings to your CSW-v2? Even if you're not getting clipping on the TX, the CSW-v2 is the stronger wheel, but you're more than doubling the FF on the TX (+30 and no wheel-level attenuation). Am I missing something?

I use the Strongest In Game Master FFB possible for the TX wheel exactly for that reason..It Has No on the Wheel FFB power level Adjustment... you have to use the In game master FFB to Control the at the wheel FFB Strength...65 for me would be Max that i would set the TX to.

I can use 100% FFB on the V2 wheel base but then its Super Duper Strong... I still get all of the FFB effects No clipping but it would wear my arms out in a 20 lap Race.. I'm a pretty strong guy so i like strong FFB maybe i like stronger FFB then most.. i dunno but If My FFB is Not strong enough i find my self constantly over steering in corners.

To use 65 in game FFB is Not Mandatory Treat it as a Volume control for desired at the wheel FFB strength Only

This is a Quote from the PDF "I see The Master in Game FFB Level as a Volume control sort of like a Car Stereo… You Turn
it up to the Point that you start Getting Distortion then you Back off of it until the Distortion
Stops… Then you would Fine tune your EQ or Bass, Mids & Treble until it sounds Good (in car
FFB Settings) then readjust the Volume accordingly (Game Master FFB)… . to Keep it simple I
see Pcars FFB the same way."

i suggested using 65 with the TX only as a base starting point Because i like strong FFB... but that is Not mandatory...You Can and should should treat the in Game Master FFB as a Volume control...it should just be used to set the desired at the wheel FFB strength that you are comfortable with... Just set it to what ever level you don't feel like your fighting with the wheel and can maintain Good FFB Feel..Keep in Mind that it has been proven that reducing the Game master FFB will Not impact the Dynamic range of the FFB on Console... Reducing the steering gain reduced the Dynamic Range.

Remember that All Tweeks are just how the Tweeker Likes the FFB strength and Feel... They are just a blue print and they Can/Should be Tweeked to Your own personal FFB taste with just a few minor changes.

if you find that Lowering in Game master FFB causes the wheel to be too Weak,Not enough wheel weight/Resistance you Can reduce the "RAC" to Control the output level of FFB at the source without Losing Dynamic FFB Range.... try it it works:yes:

P1ckN1cker2406

28-12-2015, 22:41

On my way home before reading the latest post i was wondering the same thing...my TX is from when the XB1 first launched so i guess its at least 2 to 3 years old... i wonder if they changed anything from the time mine was made that's making a difference...also what FW are you using with your TX??? they have 50.b9 FW out now that's the latest TM FW.

I´m on the latest FW 50.b9

devilmaz

29-12-2015, 08:50

the PDF SETTINGS are suitable for t300?

GrimeyDog

29-12-2015, 11:38

the PDF SETTINGS are suitable for t300?

Yes but you will.have to find your in Game Master FFB level...Its Not100 start at 65 Test drive and + or - to get the desired at the wheel FFB Strength you like...These settings are easy to Tweek and Customise to your personal FFB taste...PWMS, Dead Zone, will have to be tweeked for your Specific wheel/personal Liking... IMO The T300 should Be fine with 0.00 because its a Brushless motor and should have very little DZ.

GrimeyDog

29-12-2015, 11:39

I´m on the latest FW 50.b9

I will do some investigating and see what i come up with.

P1ckN1cker2406

29-12-2015, 12:06

I will do some investigating and see what i come up with.

Maybe it is because the Classic Preset is missing on Xbox One? On Xbox One there is only the Standard Preset available. And when I use the Standard Preset on PC then i got the same super heavy and clipping FFB.

GrimeyDog

29-12-2015, 12:25

Maybe it is because the Classic Preset is missing on Xbox One? On Xbox One there is only the Standard Preset available. And when I use the Standard Preset on PC then i got the same super heavy and clipping FFB.

I was thinking along the same lines... There Have been soo Many updates and Changes to the game that a Total Retweek maybe Needed for the TX... I spend 99% of the Time on the PS4 with the V2... I will Have to sit for a day or 2 with the TX alone and Fine tune it... it wont be hard to do...i know where to start...

Try Lowering RAC to 90, or below and see what you feel...Lowering the RAC will Not impact Full Dynamic Range but will Lower the FFB Forces you will see that in the Graph but you will still have Full Range...Let me know how it feels if you test it.. I wanted to test it last Night but My son stayed on his XB1 All Night!!! LOL... i will Figure out whats going on with it though... I will test when i get off work... im Pretty sure the Major Difference is in the Game Master FFB... Once that is properly set the Tweek has alot of Room for Tweeking to personal taste.

inthebagbud

29-12-2015, 19:52

I´m on the latest FW 50.b9

I am still on FW 49 . Never got round to updating as when 50 came out there was a few users having issues with update and didn't risk the update. Totally forgot about it since then

Haiden

29-12-2015, 19:55

Maybe it is because the Classic Preset is missing on Xbox One? On Xbox One there is only the Standard Preset available. And when I use the Standard Preset on PC then i got the same super heavy and clipping FFB.

Classic isn't available on PS4, either. I don't know when it was remove, but Default and Custom have been my only options for a while now.

inthebagbud

29-12-2015, 20:01

Classic isn't available on PS4, either. I don't know when it was remove, but Default and Custom have been my only options for a while now.

If I remember correctly the classic never made it to console - at the time when this was questioned it was said the SG setting was the only difference ?

ports

29-12-2015, 20:23

The classic setting is there on my ps4 i'll grab a screenshot and post it in 5.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/1923804_1514322312201123_5582892728014307267_n.jpg?oh=35a8e189d914f3dbf748541265af7b4a&oe=570711A7

inthebagbud

29-12-2015, 20:59

The classic setting is there on my ps4 i'll grab a screenshot and post it in 5.

weird xbox defo only default or custom

ports

29-12-2015, 21:06

weird xbox defo only default or custom

On ps4 the classic setting is 1 right click from default if you make an adjustment to either classic or default as you know we get custom from custom 2 clicks right and your back to classic 1 click for default.

P1ckN1cker2406

29-12-2015, 22:45

If I remember correctly the classic never made it to console - at the time when this was questioned it was said the SG setting was the only difference ?

No SG is definitely not the only difference. Already tested it on PC and the Default Preset, with the same settings that I use with the Classic Preset, the FFB was extreme heavy and clipping with SG at 1,00.

GrimeyDog

29-12-2015, 23:31

Maybe it is because the Classic Preset is missing on Xbox One? On Xbox One there is only the Standard Preset available. And when I use the Standard Preset on PC then i got the same super heavy and clipping FFB.

TX458 Settings
ok the Proper Game Master FFB forXB1 Pcars with My Tweek is 45!!!

you can use the scoops that are in the PDF or you can try these
PDF Scoop Knee 68 or try New 72
PDF Scoop Redu 18 or try New 12

every thing else can and should be set Exactly the way it is in the PDF

With this tweek you have a ton of room to adjust in car FFB settings to your taste before you are in any danger of clipping... I suggest trying them as they are first then Tweek in car FFB as needed... I always tweek with the GT3 Ruf on Watkins Glen its a good fast bumpy track so you can really get a good feel for what you may want to + or - as far as in Car FFB Settings go.

I posted new PDF on first Page and here Also

Much better Now!!! i can fine tune it a bit more but need more time... Let me know... this will get you on the track with Good feel!

ProDriver

29-12-2015, 23:38

In order not to confuse everybody, please post here only the adjustment related to Ps4, because this is a PS4 threat.

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 00:33

In order not to confuse everybody, please post here only the adjustment related to Ps4, because this is a PS4 threat.

Nothing to get confused about the settings work universal...They will work for your wheel once you find the Game master FFB Level Start at 50 and + or - until you have desired at the wheel FFB strength.

ProDriver

30-12-2015, 10:10

Haiden

30-12-2015, 10:55

The classic setting is there on my ps4 i'll grab a screenshot and post it in 5.

That's strange. I don't have it anymore. You're on the current version?

Edit: Nevermind. It's there. No sure why I didn't see it before. :)

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 11:18

With your settings in car, I go awesome in almost every car, but LMP1 looks likes they haven't any FFB, could be possible that it because they have assisted direction??? I don't know if they have, have they?

Push the Button to Reset the in Car FFB Settings... Then Try again... Some times the settings dont set in Right...Re enter the settings and Test... If still you need more Feel increase the Fy setting First then test... Increase the other in car settings as Needed.

If you Have Not Done a Total Reset/Delete of PCars after updates before it may be Needed... Total Reset = Deleting Game, Hard drive and Cloud Game save data and doing a Fresh instal... When they Make Big Changes to Tracks or Tire Grip levels i find this the only way to get Everything back to Normal for every Car and Track.

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 11:28

Maybe it is because the Classic Preset is missing on Xbox One? On Xbox One there is only the Standard Preset available. And when I use the Standard Preset on PC then i got the same super heavy and clipping FFB.

Thanks for the Heads up that something was wrong with the FFB... I didnt catch it over the weekend while testing... I Didnt Check the in Game FFB i assumed it was still at 65 where i left it from update 4.0 ... But Now i do Remember Turning the FFB down so my Son could Race using the TX... Thats why i didnt Feel it was too strong...I will Probabley Need to Readjust it Next Month when update 8.0 comes out... I will Readjust if Needed and post.

Seems that Working Together we are Making Good Progress on a 1 FFB for all Wheels with a simple adjust of the Game Master FFB.
CSW v2, V1 (PS4 & XB1), Tx458(XB1)
CSR Elite, CSR, T300, T150(PS4)
Have all Reported to be working well with the Tweek once propoer in Game Master FFB is set.
Now we Need Report on G29 wheels any 1 have a G29???

Thanx for the Feed back...Keep Reporting Back i will Test and Retweek to see if i can find solutions to FFB Problems and Fine tune it.

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 14:17

P1ckN1cker2406 Did you test it??? What are your thoughts?

P1ckN1cker2406

30-12-2015, 14:22

P1ckN1cker2406 Did you test it??? What are your thoughts?

Will test it in the next hour. Had a bit to do today, but now I´m at home and will try it now. Will report back later today.

P1ckN1cker2406

30-12-2015, 15:29

P1ckN1cker2406 Did you test it??? What are your thoughts?

After testing your new setting. It´s much better, but i have to find my own in game FFB Master setting. Because with in game ffb master at 45 it´s a bit too heavy for me. ;)

PureMalt77

30-12-2015, 15:33

Hi GrimeyDog,

I've decided to put in practice your theories and here goes my short "report". First of all, thanx for all the time put into this. I have myself also spend long hours into PCars FFB and TBH haven't found the ideal setup until this post.

I use the T300 with T3PA-Pro pedals in the PS4.

I've applied the data from your latest PDF, with the following changes:
Overall FFB: 50
RPM Gear Display: No (T300 has no rev lights or gear display)
Scoop Knee: 0.72
Scoop Reduction: 0.12 (scoop data based on your post for the TX458)

Tried several laps with the RUF GT3 @Watkins Glen.

With my previous settings, I had problems lapping below 1:45.5, not constant laps.
With your settings and per PDF in-car FFB, I managed to run 1:44.5 constant laps.
Since I previously did not use the SoP, I decided to test all your settings, but without SoP (all zeroed), and 1:44.0 was my best (potential 1:43.7 if I take all my best sectors)

With regards to road feel: SUPERB
Regarding single in-car FFB for all cars (except your findings with FWD, Street Cars), seems OK for the cars I've tested so far, don't have enough data yet to say otherwise.
Car feel: for some reason, I like it more without the SoP settings, it feels somehow unnatural to me, and that got reflected in lap times. I usually throw in around 10 laps to avoid any placebo effect, and with the UDF stuff and telemetry apps, is easier to collect all sector times after many runs...

Anyway, I like it! Also tried with other cars (not yet street cars), but feels great IMO.

The only one question remaining is the following: with your settings, I don't get much strength while turning. When driving straight, the wheel offers some resistance in the center to start the turn. While turning, the wheel feels quite light. I'm no specialist, the only thing I ever drove in real life are go carts, but something tells me that I should "fight" the wheel a bit more while turning. I don't know if that feeling is on purpose or just how my wheel behaves.

Any comments are welcome...
Thx again and happy 2016!

RomKnight

30-12-2015, 15:34

Just make sure you're not clipping first.

BTW, instead of reducing the master scale, isn't it better to put steering gain at 1?

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 16:47

Just make sure you're not clipping first.

BTW, instead of reducing the master scale, isn't it better to put steering gain at 1?

No Clipping i have done a Retweek...Everything seems to Revolve around Game Master FFB being set propperly for final wheel Strength to avoid at the wheel Clipping

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 16:54

gotdirt410sprintcar

30-12-2015, 18:05

RomKnight

30-12-2015, 18:39

No Clipping i have done a Retweek...Everything seems to Revolve around Game Master FFB being set propperly for final wheel Strength to avoid at the wheel Clipping

Whatever. ffb: 100 and adjust TF or vice-versa... but I remember doing that LONG time ago and somehow the former felt better... well, the point was just avoiding clipping anyway as 1st things must come 1st :D

Even when I sent my cswv2 for repairment and used the dfgt.

Same for the SoP. I also don't like it. Then again I know who turned Fy to 0 and cranked SoP Differential to 100 and prefer it that way. Beauty of pCARS FFB which I hope keeps the options (in a more intuitive way sure) for pCARS2. We can't lose this versatility :)

Haiden

30-12-2015, 19:50

Same for the SoP. I also don't like it. Then again I know who turned Fy to 0 and cranked SoP Differential to 100 and prefer it that way. Beauty of pCARS FFB which I hope keeps the options (in a more intuitive way sure) for pCARS2. We can't lose this versatility :)

I've been working on a new FFB tune over the holiday break. I've got it feeling really good now. I've been using SoP--a bit of Lateral and some Differential--but today I'm going to evaluate my lap times with SoP off. I like the feel of the SoP settings I'm using now. I just want to know for sure what it's doing to my lap times. Once I figure that out, I'll be good with these new settings.

One thing I've learned this week (and this is just my opinion) is that the in-car scales really are for fine tuning the dynamic range. Because of that, it's best to make small adjustments to one scale at a time. It may take longer to tune and test this way, but because many of the forces overlap, a small change in one scale--let's say a decrease--might weaken that specific force, but it could also accentuate another from a different scale by allow it more room to operate in the spectrum. These relations are subtle, though, and easily missed when you make large changes to one scale or change multiple scales at a time. In fact, after this week of testing, I don't believe the global settings require that much work, outside of finding the right balance between FF/TF.

I've been updating my post tune from day-to-day, but once I decide on whether or not to use SoP, I'll post the final tunes--with and without SoP. Right now, I can honestly say, this current tune is providing the best feeling I've ever had in a wheel. Some of that is the new CSW-v2, but I'm pretty sure it has more to do with my focusing more on the in-car scales, instead of fiddling with the globals.

inthebagbud

30-12-2015, 20:36

I've been working on a new FFB tune over the holiday break. I've got it feeling really good now. I've been using SoP--a bit of Lateral and some Differential--but today I'm going to evaluate my lap times with SoP off. I like the feel of the SoP settings I'm using now. I just want to know for sure what it's doing to my lap times. Once I figure that out, I'll be good with these new settings.

Really be interested in your thoughts as I do like running without SOP as it provides a lot more "road feel".

Another point of view from a TX/Xbox user would be welcome as well, no disrespect Grimey, but I do not seem to be able to replicate your settings to a comfortable level on my system and they definitely are not right without SOP values.

My problem is by the time I get back to the game I will have forgotten how the FFB felt

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 21:49

Really be interested in your thoughts as I do like running without SOP as it provides a lot more "road feel".

Another point of view from a TX/Xbox user would be welcome as well, no disrespect Grimey, but I do not seem to be able to replicate your settings to a comfortable level on my system and they definitely are not right without SOP values.

My problem is by the time I get back to the game I will have forgotten how the FFB felt

No offense taken... Its always good to Share thoughts that how we can find the Missing Pieces to the FFB Puzzle... When you get back on Try the settings again with the Readjusted Game Master FFB + or - to your desired Strength Level... i had Not Readjusted the Game Master FFB Level since update 3 or 4.0 and 65 which was Noted in the PDF was way to strong according to the FFB Changes that had been made over the Last few updates.

I like the SoP because i drive in Car View only with No Assist... The SoP Really Helps Me to Feel what the Rear of the car is doing.
When i Drive Bonnet or Bumper View I dont like the Feel SoP.
Also when using Assist SoP Can Feel un Natural because the Assist are Trying to Kill the Very Forces SoP is trying to Create... Ex: Stability Kills Sliding/ Car about to Spin Feel,
Traction Control Kills Rear End Loss of Grip/ Rear End Skidding Feel

IMO When using Assist SoP can Feel Un Natural but to Me No Matter what the Racing Sim i have Never Played one that the Assist On Feels Natural to Me so I Drive all Sims with Assist Set to Off.... I Get Mush Better Lap Times its all about Good Throttle and Brake Control also with Assist Off i can Throttle Steer and i cant do that with the Assist on.

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 22:02

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 22:16

I have been using jacks classic settings, and doing my own in car settings basically classic with body longitudinal scale added only go to about 30 max, depending what you want to feel . I keep all the in car settings pretty close 30 to forty off depending car and track.

That's the Beauty of PCars FFB... The ability to Create or Choose a FFB that best fits your FFB taste and driving style.
Good FFB = Good feeling Wheel
Best FFB = Feels natural to you with the Fastest and most consistent lap times.

PureMalt77

30-12-2015, 22:42

Also take note... For me it seems that after every update i need to do a Total Reset... I Delete Game, Hard drive Game save and Cloud game save... For me it seems that is the only way that i can ensure every car and track work as they are supposed to...Im just in the habbit of doing that now... a few times after updates certain Cars drove right and certain Tracks had the proper Grip level while some Cars and Tracks felt like i was driving on Ice!!!

For me a total Reset after every update seems to be the only Cure.... If you have never done it i suggest trying it... only bad thing is you have to start all over again in your career.

So far I've always done a controller reset after each patch, but a total reset is something I need to try. Will not miss the career anyway... But come'on, something like this is very disappointing. Feels like the DOS games I was playing in the 90's, maybe they were even more reliable!

GrimeyDog

30-12-2015, 23:08

So far I've always done a controller reset after each patch, but a total reset is something I need to try. Will not miss the career anyway... But come'on, something like this is very disappointing. Feels like the DOS games I was playing in the 90's, maybe they were even more reliable!

LOL...It Helps for sure!!! Especially when they make changes to tracks and or Tire Models.
Its the only way i get the great feel back... I have not completed any career Championships because of this... i will just wait until the updates are done with... i do the custom races... also i have tuned No car suspensions either because of this... but im not sure if i need to tune the car suspensions i get reaaly good times running stock suspension...i just got a 1:23.2xx Laguna Seca in the Gt3 Ruff with just good wheel FFb settings... Im Pushing for that 1:22.xxx!!!

Haiden

30-12-2015, 23:18

Really be interested in your thoughts as I do like running without SOP as it provides a lot more "road feel".

Another point of view from a TX/Xbox user would be welcome as well, no disrespect Grimey, but I do not seem to be able to replicate your settings to a comfortable level on my system and they definitely are not right without SOP values.

My problem is by the time I get back to the game I will have forgotten how the FFB felt

Well, much to my surprise, I'm going to drop the SoP settings. I zeroed them out, and as soon I got back on track, I realized the SoP scales were interfering with the understeer feel. I had been having a really difficult time getting that understeer feeling back into the wheel. But as soon as I felt it return, it made total sense. The SoP lateral forces were applying force to the wheel to communicate what's happening at the backend at the same time the wheel was trying to lighten up and communicate the loss of grip in the front from understeer. Front and back end forces were in opposite play at the same time, but there's only one steering wheel, and the SoP forces were winning, drowning out the understeer. Lap time-wise, there really wasn't any consistent difference. But I'm gonna drop the SoP forces, just to get the understeer back. I can still feel and catch a slide with the SoP. But I'd rather feel the understeer to help with tire management. I like the idea of SoP, but it seems like whether or not you use it depends on your play style and what you want to feel in the wheel. For me, I'd rather feel the tire forces in the wheel, instead of the inertia acting on my butt. :)

poirqc

31-12-2015, 03:21

Well, much to my surprise, I'm going to drop the SoP settings. I zeroed them out, and as soon I got back on track, I realized the SoP scales were interfering with the understeer feel. I had been having a really difficult time getting that understeer feeling back into the wheel. But as soon as I felt it return, it made total sense. The SoP lateral forces were applying force to the wheel to communicate what's happening at the backend at the same time the wheel was trying to lighten up and communicate the loss of grip in the front from understeer. Front and back end forces were in opposite play at the same time, but there's only one steering wheel, and the SoP forces were winning, drowning out the understeer. Lap time-wise. There really wasn't any consistent difference. But I'm gonna drop the SoP forces, just got get the understeer back. I can still feel and catch a slide with the SoP. But I'd rather feel the understeer to help with tire management. I like the idea of SoP, but it seems like whether or not you use it depends on your play style and what you want to feel in the wheel. For me, I'd rather feel the tire forces in the wheel, instead of the inertia acting on my butt. :)

Well put Haiden!

For some time, i wanted to write something like that but a bit of a language barrier and a big bucket of lazyness made me not do it.

The way i see it is that pCars could drive a simulation rig really well because the physics simulate lots of stuff. But when you "only" have a wheel, sometimes, less is better. At the same time from the official guide:

SoPDifferential (SoP Differential Scale)
Scaling of the rear vertical load effect, which is actually the difference between right and left
vertical loads.

Let's say you're in a curve, and the sum of the rear is 0,3. The sum of the front is at 0,3. This means a load of 0,6. If you start to understeer, the front lowers to 0,1. This means a sum of 0,4 for everything.

Without SoP, understeering means a 66% drop in FFB force.
With SoP, understeering means a 33% drop in FFB.

In either case, if it's happening in a compressed range(With Soft Clipping, let's say), feeling understeering will be harder.

Keep in mind i almost failed college because of math. I also took those numbers from a fairytale!

Happy New Year!

BigDad

31-12-2015, 06:32

So you guys say leave all other ffb settings as are and just drop the sop's ? Is this correct to what you are saying .?

Haiden

31-12-2015, 06:50

Let's say you're in a curve, and the sum of the rear is 0,3. The sum of the front is at 0,3. This means a load of 0,6. If you start to understeer, the front lowers to 0,1. This means a sum of 0,4 for everything.

Without SoP, understeering means a 66% drop in FFB force.
With SoP, understeering means a 33% drop in FFB.

In either case, if it's happening in a compressed range(With Soft Clipping, let's say), feeling understeering will be harder.

Yep. That sounds like the mathematical equivalent of what I was feeling. :) I tend to run hot on my front left tire, so understeer is more important to me.

So you guys say leave all other ffb settings as are and just drop the sop's ? Is this correct to what you are saying .?

On mine, yes...almost. :) If you drop the SoP on my current settings, you should feel a clearer sense of understeer, but without redistribution, it comes at the expense of a little overall strength in the wheel. I've made other adjustments to redistribute the balance. I'll post the updates once I've finished testing them out. But try driving 10 laps with SoP, and then dropping it and driving 10 more. You'll should be able to feel to feel difference.

inthebagbud

31-12-2015, 07:18

On mine, yes...almost. :) If you drop the SoP on my current settings, you should feel a clearer sense of understeer, but without redistribution, it comes at the expense of a little overall strength in the wheel.

I think it is this reduction of strength that actually helps, as it allows the wheel to be "felt" rather than be drowned out sometimes. I found before patch 7 that cars started light and became progressively heavier as grip was introduced to the tyres and turning in feel was mor progressive as well

gotdirt410sprintcar

31-12-2015, 07:36

I just think relative adjust needs too be adjusted I think that only controls seat of the pants bumps etc. I have got sop to work good on the BAC mono at brands GP and had sop lower than the master could feel the rear good and front tire grip as well.

right now I have RAG 85 BLD 03 CLP 98 it feels good I wonder if I drop RAC down more it would make the rear feel more natural T500 BY THE WAY

Gamer82678

31-12-2015, 14:36

FFB Linearity graph calculation utilizing 30% Force Feedback Strength.
DRF - Deadzone Removal Falloff utilized in game is 0.029
This is the result of utilizing poircq's Google Sheets FFB Calculator and Skoader's Force Curve Modifier app.
I feel finding the best linear FFB strength percentage(s) response(s) for wheel to be a vital nucleus for some variable yet accurate approaches to FFB system tweaking. Possibilities ! :cool:
I also feel every wheels intricate response internals to have it's own individual unique shape response identity. :cool:
Something like a fingerprint or snow flake none exactly the same. :cool:

Will try to share FFB system settings soon on YouTube.

YouTube Vid Link: http://youtu.be/0XRPZNFGXvY

Happy Holidays ! :cool:

GrimeyDog

31-12-2015, 15:55

poirqc

31-12-2015, 19:22

Post some Videos Showing the FFB Telemetry... Ya Know i Like Reading the FFB Graph. LOL

Seems this Version of My FFB Tweek is Complete and working Well... I Have a Whole New Tweek Formula that i will be working on...I just have to Figure out The Masters that go past 100 to 200....what i Need to Know is if 100 = to 50% or 100% with 200 being Over drive setting or is 200 = to 100%

In the New Version i can Keep the FFB Graph Line Centerd right in the Middle of the Graph Box with the FFB lines Going to Full Top and Botton of the Graph Box... Basicaly same Feel just FFB Graph Lines Stay Center of the Box.

Question... When Testing For Linear Feel... Im Not exactly sure what Feel people are Looking for...Can Some one Desribe what you are Loking for as Far as a Linear wheel is Concerned
..Is it that Feel that the wheel Gets heavyer the More you turn it??? Explain.

It's just a way to try to have as even steps as possible.

Let's say the game can send a signal from 1 to 10. But my wheel, by itself do something else:

1 0
2 0
3 1
4 3
5 5
6 7
7 9
8 9.3
9 9.6
10 10

As you can see, the wheel doesn't do what the game tell it to do.

As soon as you have the least deadzone possible, that the range of force is somewhat even, that the max force isn't too strong for your taste. Globals are set. With that said, it gives a fairly weak wheel because all the steps take as much space as the next. Everything need to be into the range of the wheel. Of course, this is when you never want to clip under any circumstances. Sometimes, just a bit of clipping isn't that bad.

If you want to go above the static range a wheel has, you need SC or RA.

As soon as you use Soft Clipping or Relative Adjusts, the signal isn't linear anymore. SC will compress the signal in a static way. RA will compress it based on a ponctual reference.

The way i see Soft Clipping:

When SCFO is dialed to "catch" everything:

SCHI < 0,5*(SCFO) = Expantion of the low forces, less "space" for the high forces
SCHI > 0,5*(SCFO) = Compression of the low forces, more "space" for the high forces

The way i see Relative Adjusts:
I can explain it well enough, it's black magic after all!

Relative Adjust
This settings are admittedly a little bit black magic in feel

Happy New Year!

GrimeyDog

31-12-2015, 20:16

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???
Is it for the Wheel to get Progerssiveley Harder to turn the more you Turn it( Like a Car with No Power Steering)

Is it to Have the Wheel Weight Even throughout the Full Turning Range---> although i cant see how FFB effects can be felt like this.

Im Trying to get some one to Explain what the Linear feel that they want Feels like... This is where im Stuck at....What does a Linear wheel setting feel like to you Feeling wise???

I Tried some ones Linear Wheel Settings but it felt like back when FFB was just a Spring in the Wheel Center with Rumble Effects... So im Lost as to what Linear Feeling people are trying to achieve.... What are they serching for what is it supposed to feel like?

gotdirt410sprintcar

31-12-2015, 21:19

the way I have my t500 setup I feel a heavy wheel braking and turning then goes light when I need it too. still a work in progress but I been racing more than tuning I spent a day or so getting it close. It still heavy at the wheel but not bad its getting the in car settings just right to get that feeling. its funny I lower the clamp to 85 from 98 the wheel got real tight in the center of the wheel so I think I hav it at 80 bleed at 03 gain at 50

inthebagbud

31-12-2015, 21:44

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???
Is it for the Wheel to get Progerssiveley Harder to turn the more you Turn it( Like a Car with No Power Steering)

Is it to Have the Wheel Weight Even throughout the Full Turning Range---> although i cant see how FFB effects can be felt like this.

Im Trying to get some one to Explain what the Linear feel that they want Feels like... This is where im Stuck at....What does a Linear wheel setting feel like to you Feeling wise???

I Tried some ones Linear Wheel Settings but it felt like back when FFB was just a Spring in the Wheel Center with Rumble Effects... So im Lost as to what Linear Feeling people are trying to achieve.... What are they serching for what is it supposed to feel like?

To be honest I have no idea what a linear response is any more. I understand the 1 to 1 ratio theosry and as such the linear response suggestion, but the more I think about it should we in a game actually want this........ when all said and done it's not real driving , we are all trying to interpret a "feeling" and to everybody it will be different.

I have spent time messin with settings in car and in wheel and as a tx user on xbox I reckon that drr/ scoops/rag can actually be turned off. I can get same feel without at least 2 of these settings turned off and as the xbox originally only had the tx is this surprising and maybe the ffb for xbox actually works out of the tin!

The xbox ffb discussion seems to be the least active of any and a lot of the time i see posts that suggest users are using default settings

Oh dear more testing !

Sixer

31-12-2015, 22:01

I'm going to have to go through all the pages in this thread,it all seems very insightful.

rams1de

31-12-2015, 23:55

My take is that a linear response is probably not too important if you are looking to enhance sensations like road feel, braking feel, kerbs or simply want a strong wheel. You can tinker with all sorts of combos to get the level of immersion you like and what's immersive is very personal.

Now if we all wanted the exact same feedback from our wheels, the settings we need will vary depending on the linearity of the wheel because our wheels will output a different force even though the input force calculated by the game is the same.

That's important because the game tells the wheel to apply an amount of force for a period of time in either a clockwise or anti-clockwise direction. If two wheels translate the same message differently, the sensation, aka feedback, will be different.

Linearity probably matters even more when you want to control slip angle to maximise grip. My theory on that could be tl,dr and I'm not sure my limited understanding of tyre physics will hold up anyway.

Jezza819

01-01-2016, 04:56

Also take note... For me it seems that after every update i need to do a Total Reset... I Delete Game, Hard drive Game save and Cloud game save... For me it seems that is the only way that i can ensure every car and track work as they are supposed to...Im just in the habbit of doing that now... a few times after updates certain Cars drove right and certain Tracks had the proper Grip level while some Cars and Tracks felt like i was driving on Ice!!!

For me a total Reset after every update seems to be the only Cure.... If you have never done it i suggest trying it... only bad thing is you have to start all over again in your career.

When I go into game management all I see are "uninstall all". Is there something deeper than that that I need to try?

GrimeyDog

01-01-2016, 05:42

When I go into game management all I see are "uninstall all". Is there something deeper than that that I need to try?

Yes you Have to Delete Hard Drive and Cloud Game Save Data ( you dont have to delete Replays or Pucturs)

inthebagbud

01-01-2016, 12:19

Happy New Year racers

Found this sketch over on the Steam site from this article http://steamcommunity.com/app/234630#scrollTop=4971 giving some explanation of the in car ffb settings

224724

Haiden

01-01-2016, 15:49

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???
Is it for the Wheel to get Progerssiveley Harder to turn the more you Turn it( Like a Car with No Power Steering)

Im Trying to get some one to Explain what the Linear feel that they want Feels like... This is where im Stuck at....What does a Linear wheel setting feel like to you Feeling wise???

I Tried some ones Linear Wheel Settings but it felt like back when FFB was just a Spring in the Wheel Center with Rumble Effects... So im Lost as to what Linear Feeling people are trying to achieve.... What are they serching for what is it supposed to feel like?

Not sure you're gonna get a real answer to this. Feelings are one of the hardest things to describe. It's too personal, and the words people use to described them are rarely concrete/absolute in their meaning. Probably better to just read the definition and try to recreate that based on your interpretation. Although, I'm not sure why people do it. By definition, it sounds like it will produce the bland tension spring kind of feedback you said you felt in your friend's wheel.

To be honest I have no idea what a linear response is any more. I understand the 1 to 1 ratio theosry and as such the linear response suggestion, but the more I think about it should we in a game actually want this........ when all said and done it's not real driving , we are all trying to interpret a "feeling" and to everybody it will be different.

I don't get it either. By definition, and looking at the charts, I don't see how forcing the FFB to step through each increment produces good FFB. Cornering force might be okay, but it seems like it would slow down a lot of quick acting forces. I don't bother with it. I also don't know why wheel manufacturers would set it that way if a linear 1:1 was better.

My take is that a linear response is probably not too important if you are looking to enhance sensations like road feel, braking feel, kerbs or simply want a strong wheel. You can tinker with all sorts of combos to get the level of immersion you like and what's immersive is very personal.

Now if we all wanted the exact same feedback from our wheels, the settings we need will vary depending on the linearity of the wheel because our wheels will output a different force even though the input force calculated by the game is the same.

Linearity probably matters even more when you want to control slip angle to maximise grip. My theory on that could be tl,dr and I'm not sure my limited understanding of tyre physics will hold up anyway.

Exactly, I don't see how it would be good for road feel. And yes, all wheels handle it differently, which is why I don't see there being one FFB solution for all wheels. The hardware just isn't the same, and will not produce the same results. It's more than just overall FFB strength that needs to be adjusted to equalize FFB across different wheels.

I guess I can see it being useful for detecting the slip angle, but then again, stepping through the force range in a linear fashion might actually make it harder for some people to detect the slip, because it's come on too gradually. The lightening of the wheel might feel more like understeer.

Happy New Year racers

Found this sketch over on the Steam site from this article http://steamcommunity.com/app/234630#scrollTop=4971 giving some explanation of the in car ffb settings

Interesting, it does show why the SoP forces interfere with other forces.

GrimeyDog

01-01-2016, 16:57

Happy New Year racers

Found this sketch over on the Steam site from this article http://steamcommunity.com/app/234630#scrollTop=4971 giving some explanation of the in car ffb settings

224724

That is a Brilliant Pic!!! Although i have Never Seen that Pic Before!!! Wow... It Lines up with My Tweek Exactly!!! I Have said that Fx takes away Far More Feel than it Gives a Few Pages ago...i Keep my FX at 2.00 Thats pretty Much exactly what i see in My Head while Tweeking... I Posted a Pic a Few pages back but Not Nearly as Good as this 1.

GrimeyDog

01-01-2016, 18:19

"Originally Posted by*GrimeyDog*

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???*
Is it for the Wheel to get Progerssiveley Harder to turn the more you Turn it( Like a Car with No Power Steering)

Im Trying to get some one to Explain what the Linear feel that they want Feels like... This is where im Stuck at....What does a Linear wheel setting feel like to you Feeling wise???*
I Tried some ones Linear Wheel Settings but it felt like back when FFB was just a Spring in the Wheel Center with Rumble Effects... So im Lost as to what Linear Feeling people are trying to achieve.... What are they serching for what is it supposed to feel like?"

"Haiden *Response to Question*
Not sure you're gonna get a real answer to this. Feelings are one of the hardest things to describe. It's too personal, and the words people use to described them are rarely concrete/absolute in their meaning. Probably better to just read the definition and try to recreate that based on your interpretation. Although, I'm not sure why people do it. By definition, it sounds like it will produce the bland tension spring kind of feedback you said you felt in your friend's"

Grimey_Dog *Response*
This is as I Feared it would be... I see Post after Post with this Calculator that Calculator Chasing the Perfect Linear FFB or wheel settings but No one Can Ever Desribe what it feels like when its Right but Every 1 can say that its wrong but cant Describe what the Difference between The Good and the Bad FFB other than the obviouse FFB Clipping.. Its a Paradox.... Hmmm....I will Dub this Topic The "Phantom Linearity" Paradox!!!

poirqc

01-01-2016, 19:39

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???

I'll start with a small context.

When i jumped on the pCars train, i came back from a break of almost 10 years from racing game(did some karting and 1 trackday instead(F430 OMG :D:D:D). I started from scratch(Not that that i knew any better back then). At first, i was under the assumption that pCars FFB, was supposed to be already "tuned", from people(developpers and consultants) that had a better understanding(***) of what a good FFB recipe was. The first thing that catched my eye was that the "Classic" templates were almost all the same, even if different wheel behave alot differently. The easiest part to see is the deadzone of a wheel. I thought to myself: "A car is a car. Why should it behave differently from steering wheel to steering wheel?"

This is why i started the Baseline Value thread. I was both wrong and right on alot of aspect of the FFB.

Now onto your question.

Linearity isn't the end goal, it's a starting point, a tool, to acheive the best(*) immersive and informative(**) FFB a wheel can render. What i mean by "best" is the operating range of a wheel. Regardless of the Car FFB you want to put in, there's an optimal way a wheel can render it. I'm also starting to think Linearity it's not the right term for it's intent. It's one reason why i'm slowy putting the term aside in the thread. I think it would be better called Output Optimisation.

*It took WAY longer than just going by feel and learning the tools that way :)
** This is set by the Car FFB. Well put Globals will let the Car FFB express itself.
***Imho, pCars FFB is a DIY FFB. pCars came with straight values(Equal FxyzMz & noSoP)

I think the end goal is the same for everyone. We all go after, in any mix or order:

Under/oversteering
Rear end stepping out under heavy breaking
Weight transfert on turn ins.
Road surface information
Etc...

It's the reason i tried to explain how the settings translate to actual driving.

Obviously, most of the users, that played with the FFB for some time, don't really need a thread like the Baseline one. They already know what does what.

The intent of the thread is help new players get going right from the start. With something that works fairly well, without much tweaking. The tweaking comes after. Someone could argue that using the default can be just as good. Time investment wise, it is! :)

Jezza819

01-01-2016, 22:11

Yes you Have to Delete Hard Drive and Cloud Game Save Data ( you dont have to delete Replays or Pucturs)

Where is that at? Like I said when I went into game management the only choice I had was to uninstall. Is that a PS4 only choice?

skoader

01-01-2016, 23:57

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???
Is it for the Wheel to get Progerssiveley Harder to turn the more you Turn it( Like a Car with No Power Steering)

Is it to Have the Wheel Weight Even throughout the Full Turning Range---> although i cant see how FFB effects can be felt like this.

Im Trying to get some one to Explain what the Linear feel that they want Feels like... This is where im Stuck at....What does a Linear wheel setting feel like to you Feeling wise???

It's not about a 'linear feeling' as such. It's about having an accurate representation at the wheel of the relative forces calculated in game. If the tire simulation pumps out a stream of forces oscillating rapidly between 80-90% of my wheels capability, that's exactly what I want to feel.

The problem is that not all wheels respond to the forces thrown at them in a linear fashion. At full strength, the TX for example responds to a request for 80% force with over 95% of its might. A request for 90% force is only marginally stronger.

So that wave oscillating between 80-90% force coming out of the physics system is going to feel relatively stronger, and less lively at the wheel as you're really getting something closer to 95-96% of the wheels capability.

Having a 'linear response' simply means that when the simulation calculates a specific load on the tires, that's precisely what you get at the wheel.

Haiden

02-01-2016, 00:45

Having a 'linear response' simply means that when the simulation calculates a specific load on the tires, that's precisely what you get at the wheel.

Doesn't it also mean that it will take longer to step through the increase and decrease in forces? That's what you'll get, but it's not always what you want in terms of simulating tire physics.

And the question still remains. If a linear response is best, then why don't wheel manufactures make them that way? Why are they redistributing the scale?

This is as I Feared it would be... I see Post after Post with this Calculator that Calculator Chasing the Perfect Linear FFB or wheel settings but No one Can Ever Desribe what it feels like when its Right but Every 1 can say that its wrong but cant Describe what the Difference between The Good and the Bad FFB other than the obviouse FFB Clipping.. Its a Paradox.... Hmmm....I will Dub this Topic The "Phantom Linearity" Paradox!!!

The thing I don't understand is, until PCars we weren't able to customize the FFB to this degree in other games. Why is a non-linear FFB okay for other games and not PCars? Why chase the rabbit now?

poirqc

02-01-2016, 04:54

Doesn't it also mean that it will take longer to step through the increase and decrease in forces? That's what you'll get, but it's not always what you want in terms of simulating tire physics.

And the question still remains. If a linear response is best, then why don't wheel manufactures make them that way? Why are they redistributing the scale?

The thing I don't understand is, until PCars we weren't able to customize the FFB to this degree in other games. Why is a non-linear FFB okay for other games and not PCars? Why chase the rabbit now?

For the first question, i think the redistribution of the scale is more of a tradeoff of the mechanical design than an intended feature. The G25 is almost straight while the G27 has a big knee.

For the 2nd question,a good example would be the logitech G27 deadzone. For a while, before modern racing game, there was a trick to run the driver profiler strenght above 100% to reduce the deadzone of a wheel. In pCars, there's no need to go above 100% because there's a built in tool that deal with that.

In pCars, the FFB works great, to an extent, with everything disabled in globals, beside TF and SG. The globals are just there to deal with the shortcomings of our wheels. It doesn't mean our wheels can't work without pCars's tools.

skoader

02-01-2016, 06:56

Doesn't it also mean that it will take longer to step through the increase and decrease in forces? That's what you'll get, but it's not always what you want in terms of simulating tire physics.
I'm not sure I understand your question. The range doesn't change, no.

And the question still remains. If a linear response is best, then why don't wheel manufactures make them that way? Why are they redistributing the scale?
Higher end wheels do have a linear response. That's a large part of how they're able to accurately present forces back to the user.
This is primarily an issue with lower grade devices. Do you think Logitech deliberately designed their G29's with the inability to respond to forces below 16%? They don't even attempt to work around it in the driver.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't use the available tools to massage low forces up to a range that the wheel can use more effectively. The same applies at the other end of the force range where some consumer wheels demonstrably flatten out.

Haiden

02-01-2016, 07:06

For the first question, i think the redistribution of the scale is more of a tradeoff of the mechanical design than an intended feature. The G25 is almost straight while the G27 has a big knee.

In pCars, the FFB works great, to an extent, with everything disabled in globals, beside TF and SG. The globals are just there to deal with the shortcomings of our wheels. It doesn't mean our wheels can't work without pCars's tools.

I don't know. Logitech isn't the only or first manufacturer to make their wheels like that. I think there's more to it than that, and a reason they aren't the only ones doing it.

I don't use many of the globals--Deadzone, Linkage, Soft Clipping, Wheel Movement--but I've tried disabling the Relative Adjust and Scoop settings. It was misleading. It resulted in a nice firm/tight feeling wheel, but it only took a couple of laps to realize I was missing a lot of detail. I think the Scoop setting is important. Not all forces should be given the same weight. Which is actually my issue with linearity. But that's just my opinion. I know the feeling I like.

rams1de

02-01-2016, 09:53

poirqc

02-01-2016, 10:05

I don't know. Logitech isn't the only or first manufacturer to make their wheels like that. I think there's more to it than that, and a reason they aren't the only ones doing it.

I don't use many of the globals--Deadzone, Linkage, Soft Clipping, Wheel Movement--but I've tried disabling the Relative Adjust and Scoop settings. It was misleading. It resulted in a nice firm/tight feeling wheel, but it only took a couple of laps to realize I was missing a lot of detail. I think the Scoop setting is important. Not all forces should be given the same weight. Which is actually my issue with linearity. But that's just my opinion. I know the feeling I like.

Way more than i do! :) I'll quote myself:

If they all feel good, congratulation. If not, take back you're first car and fix what driving behavior you want to adjusts with the corresponding tool. There's some small explanation below about witch does what. Good luck.

It's the reason i'm not trying to lure the user into one way of tuning or another. When messing with Scoops, you either start from the default 70/15, from 0/0, the sheet. Or like you, you leave it there. The only way we could find the "best" Scoops would be to have 4 same rigs side by side and blind test various scoop values.

As for the Car FFB, it's the balance of the Globals that matters, based on witch one you use.

At the end of the day, going toward a linear FFB output isn't the 8th wonder of the world, it's just another way to trying to get a good FFB. :D

Enough yada yada, back to the actual question:
I'll rule out heavy clipping senario, too many variable case there.

Imho, the linearity of the signal comes more from the balance of TF(for simplicity's sake) & RA / SC than Scoops. Scoops will just offset the output signal. Without RA or SC, you'll need a fairly low TF to rule out clipping. As you move TF up, more and more anti clipping mechanism will be needed.

RA will compress the signal a dynamic way.
SC will compress the signal in a static one.

When dealing with signal compression, we don't have access to an infinite window of wheel strenght. So the more space you give to some forces, the less there will be for others. It's a matter of picking the balance you want to working towards that.

Cheers!

Edit - Ninja'd by rams1de! :) Indeed, there's 2 scenario. You either set it to your taste, regardless of how it feels to other wheel. Or via globals, you try to get a same Car FFB to feel the same on 2 different wheels.

Haiden

02-01-2016, 15:22

The non-linear response of wheels is due to their design and the quality of components used. An electrical engineer could explain in more detail, but the efficiency of the motor, gearing system and cooling will all contribute to how accurately the wheel will respond to its instructions.

I think most people would agree that forces should be given different weight but which forces and by how much becomes personal taste.

However, for those wishing to share settings so that others can enjoy or sample their own experience, there needs to be a level starting point. And that is to have each wheel able to respond as near as possible in the same way to each of those settings - otherwise what's the point?

This is actually my point. They designed it to be the most efficient with the hardware they used to create the wheel--they being the engineers that actually designed and thoroughly tested the units during R&D. So, in essence, what you're doing is undoing what they've done, and possibly making the wheels less efficient and making the motors work in a way that wasn't intended. It might feel better (to some), but the manufacturer's engineers obviously thought the final production settings were the best for the longevity and care of the product. It's funny how many wheels have been burned out since PCars came out. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but it's interesting to note. I just don't see the point of trumping a team of product engineers that obviously know their product better than most users.

I get what you're saying about a level starting point. But as far, as I'm concerned, the level starting point is having the same hardware (wheel and platform). I don't understand why someone with a G27 would be trying to use a tune someone else created for their CSW-v2. Just like I don't understand why someone on Xb1 or PS4 would try to use a tune someone else create on PC. I've actually seen people using TX wheels on one console/platform trying to apply tunes from a PC user with a CSW-v2. Obviously that's not going to produce the same feel. Linearity doesn't solve the disparities between platforms anyway. PC, PS4, and Xb1 all rendering different FFB. That's known. Your mount also plays a role in what you feel. If you're wheel is mounted to a wooden desk, it's not going to feel quite the same as a wheel mounted to a sturdy metal cockpit. There's even a difference in feel between a Wheel Stand mount and a cockpit mount. I know that from experience. I was very surprised at how much of a difference it made. My wheel stand was solid and sturdy, but the feel totally changed when I mounted my wheel to the cockpit. As far as creating a level starting point, there are so many other factors that need to be dealt with. Linear or not, if you're not on the same platform or using the same hardware, what's the point?

Personally, I think it would best to just share and talk about your tune--the what you did and why. That helps others understand, and then be better able to make their own adjustments. If you're running the same hardware and can use them as-is, go for it. But, right now, I'm not trying to make plug-and-play settings for anyone other CSW-v2 users on PS4. I hope others CSW-v2 users on other platforms can use them, but they're gonna require some adjustment for those users. If you're not using a CSW-v2, then don't even bother trying the tune. Instead, ask questions about what you're trying to do or find another user with same hardware and copy their tune. You'll get far better and quicker results.

But, back to topic. I made a few minor Relative Adjust changes that really improved the dynamic range in the wheel. There's one more scale I want to mess with. Then I'll run with these settings for a while this afternoon, and then switch back to my old settings to rule out the placebo effect and make sure I didn't get lost in the rabbit hole. If everything checks out, I'll post the new ones later. :) I'm planning to sell my TX and T300 setups soon. If I'm feeling ambitious, I might set them up on the Wheel Stand and try to quickly recreate my CSW feel on the TX and T300. No guarantee, but I might get to it. I'll definitely tune the CSW on Xb1 soon. I just haven't got around to it yet.

GrimeyDog

02-01-2016, 15:56

I don't use many of the globals--Deadzone, Linkage, Soft Clipping, Wheel Movement--but I've tried disabling the Relative Adjust and Scoop settings. It was misleading. It resulted in a nice firm/tight feeling wheel, but it only took a couple of laps to realize I was missing a lot of detail. I think the Scoop setting is important. Not all forces should be given the same weight. Which is actually my issue with linearity. But that's just my opinion. I know the feeling I like.

I Agree 100%.... Turning the Relative and Scoop off Makes the wheel Feel like they did back when FFB was a Spring in the Center of the Wheel with a Few Rumble Effects added in.

spacepadrille

02-01-2016, 16:39

I get what you're saying about a level starting point. But as far, as I'm concerned, the level starting point is having the same hardware (wheel and platform). I don't understand why someone with a G27 would be trying to use a tune someone else created for their CSW-v2. Just like I don't understand why someone on Xb1 or PS4 would try to use a tune someone else create on PC. I've actually seen people using TX wheels on one console/platform trying to apply tunes from a PC user with a CSW-v2. Obviously that's not going to produce the same feel. Linearity doesn't solve the disparities between platforms anyway. PC, PS4, and Xb1 all rendering different FFB. That's known. Your mount also plays a role in what you feel. If you're wheel is mounted to a wooden desk, it's not going to feel quite the same as a wheel mounted to a sturdy metal cockpit. There's even a difference in feel between a Wheel Stand mount and a cockpit mount. I know that from experience. I was very surprised at how much of a difference it made. My wheel stand was solid and sturdy, but the feel totally changed when I mounted by wheel to the cockpit. As far as creating a level starting point, there are so many other factors that need to be dealt. Linear or not, if you're not on the same platform or using the same hardware, what's the point?.

It's good to see written those things. Thanks. But now I want to evolve from my wooden desk to a sturdy metal cockpit !!! ;-)

fm4dj

02-01-2016, 17:16

I am using GrimeyDogs FFB Tweek for 3 weeks now and i think its great. It feels strong, direct and very responsive. I was using JS's FFB but i have to say that it was never really perfect for me. Sometimes the FFB felt to weak, sometimes i was missing the cars feedback. I am trying lots of different cars (always stock) on lots of different tracks and as far as i am concerned, GrimeyDogs FFB Tweek gave me by far the best result. For me its a game-changer. I can only speak for myself but JS is no option for me anymore.
Thanks for the great work Grimey...

PureMalt77

02-01-2016, 19:59

LOL...It Helps for sure!!! Especially when they make changes to tracks and or Tire Models.
Its the only way i get the great feel back... I have not completed any career Championships because of this... i will just wait until the updates are done with... i do the custom races... also i have tuned No car suspensions either because of this... but im not sure if i need to tune the car suspensions i get reaaly good times running stock suspension...i just got a 1:23.2xx Laguna Seca in the Gt3 Ruff with just good wheel FFb settings... Im Pushing for that 1:22.xxx!!!

I took your advice and:
- deleted the game and game data (from console and PSN)
- re-inserted the disk
- waited for the 7.0 patch to download
- downloaded my DLCs
- started the game fresh

After the initial setup, I confess that did not find much difference when driving without SoP, but now with SoP I think is making a whole lot of difference!

But my graphics now look a bit ugly! I have artifacts which weren't there before, like the while lines defining the track borders are no longer "straight" and show big squares like 90's shooters! I have that temporal whatever setting to 5, same value I had before... all other graphic settings are default, unless High Speed Shake turned on...

GrimeyDog

02-01-2016, 21:30

I Started the FFB Tweeking Process very Complicated as many others did... i was trying to calculate Spindle forces ETC like Many others with Not Good Results... I switched my method of FFB Tweeking to a Simple method of just adjusting the Sliders according to what feels best at the wheel with Great success... I Treat all Sliders a a Volume Control... it Makes sense and serves to reason that we do Not Have to Calculate Spindle, Rack or other Forces because the Game has those Forces Pre Programmed inside already at a set Value that can be + or - using the in Car Masters, Fy,Fx, SoP settings. Seems that the only Real Challenge would be to Set the Relative and Scoop Settings on a Per Wheel Basis to Bring out the best feel that wheel can offer... From my testing with the CSW v2, CSR Elite, 911 gt2 PS4 and CSW v2 W/Hub,TX 458 XB1 all wheels can use the Same FFB Tweek and Have Good FFB as long as the Wheel is Respected for the Wheel it is...Note My Tweek is a Good Base Starting point but The Globals can be Optimized to bring out the Best in every wheel provided the user knows how to Tweek them... EX: on PS4 i can Not Expect My CSR Elite or 911 Gt2 wheel to perform Exactly as My V2 wheel does because the V2 is a Brushless Motor and Has Quicker Response Time and a Broader FFB response/pick up range than the CSR Elite and 911 Gt2... Certain FFB signals will just Not be Heard/Picked up by those wheels its a Hardware issue with the wheels Limitations.... Which Leads Me to wonder that Maybe MS was Right when they Said that Older wheels Can Not Maximize the Next Gen FFB Tec and excluded them from working on XB1... but in any event as long as you use your Wheel According to what it is the FFB can be the best that it can...This simple point Needs to be understood by All and would Clear up alot of FFB issues that some are Having...Ex Real Life i have a 350z its 310Hp i can Not be mad that it will Not perform the same as a Porsche... While it out performs most it only performs according to what i paid for... Bottom Line...with PCars the wheel used is the Same Principal.

Now that Most Have abandoned the Must use 100% in Game Master FFB for All Wheels and all Systems Rule that has been Strictly pushed by some i see that there is More Progress being Made with FFB Tweeking with Less wheels Breaking...IMO that Rule Never Made sense to Me... That's like saying My Car does 160mph so i have to drive it at the Max every time I Drive it..... FFB Its all about the the right Balance between Power/in Game Master FFB and Fidelity/ Global and In Car FFB Settings.

Bottom Line is yes i believe that there can be a General 1 FFB Tweek for all wheels for those that can Not Tweek for them Selves... and it can be Fine Tuned to optimum performance per FFB taste and wheel provided that the user has Basic Knowledge of what settings to Tweek.

Also i think that it would have been Better for PCars Community if More Tweekers were open to Join Forces... I Have Offerd Many Many Times to join Forces with JS to Create a universal Hybrid FFB to No avail.... even if there were Separate People or Threads that were selected and Posted to the Main page to Tweek Per Platform used that would be a Great Help to those getting Started with PCars FFB....Ex i Tweek mostly for PS4 but i do Have a XB1 and Have Modified My Tweek to work with CSW, CSR E, T300, T150 on PS4 & CSW w/Hub, TX wheel XB1.... as it is Now there are Many that Have Not found this Thread so that we that are in Here cant Help them... Every person we Help to Find the Beauty of PCars FFB system only Makes SMS and the PCars Community Stronger!!! That's My Focus... PCars is a Great Sim Racing Game that i Enjoy alot... I don't want it to Fade out because it cant get the Community Support it Needs to Survive... That's why i Tweek... Purely for the Love of Racing.... Well that is except for the Times i Meet some on the Track and they Kicking My ass with Mdy Own Tweek work!!! LOL... Happy New Year.

GrimeyDog

02-01-2016, 21:39

I took your advice and:
- deleted the game and game data (from console and PSN)
- re-inserted the disk
- waited for the 7.0 patch to download
- downloaded my DLCs
- started the game fresh

After the initial setup, I confess that did not find much difference when driving without SoP, but now with SoP I think is making a whole lot of difference!

But my graphics now look a bit ugly! I have artifacts which weren't there before, like the while lines defining the track borders are no longer "straight" and show big squares like 90's shooters! I have that temporal whatever setting to 5, same value I had before... all other graphic settings are default, unless High Speed Shake turned on...

You Have to Check your Graphics Settings again... I leave the temoral setting stock... i think its at 20... But Make sure after Fresh instal you Re Start your PS4 to lock in all Changes... Dont know if it makes a Diff but thats what i do... Thats the only way after updating i can be Sure i get My Same Good Feel Back.

Jezza819

03-01-2016, 01:29

"Originally Posted by*GrimeyDog*

So the Next Question is what is the Linear Feel people are Looking for???*

Here's my take on Linear Feel and I'll say ahead of time that I might be completely full of, well you know.

To me Linear means that the wheel has a good range of motion from left to right without any notches or deadzones. Understeer and even oversteer can be dialed in and refined but the wheel's operation isn't responsible for that. To me that's where Forza is missing the boat. They have this narrow band of steering range with sharp falloffs on either side where the steering wheel is not turning the vehicle's wheels anymore, that's a deadzone to me. If you take the capital U and turn it upside down that represents Forza's steering motion. A narrow band to either side of dead center and then a sharp falloff on either side. That's not Linear to me.

PCars more represents the Linear feel I like. The PCars steering is more stiffly sprung at dead center with effort required to move it off of there. It's more like a capital V. Steer left or right but there is a distinct effort for the wheel to return to dead center. But it works. The only notching you can feel I think is directly proportional to the bumps in the track and that's the way it should be. There's a great range of motion from left to right that more represents the effort that you would actually have to make if you were behind the wheel of the actual car.

I've been testing both Grimey's and Haiden's recommendations and on most of the modern stuff they both work fine. The issues I've had have been related to the classic stuff. Mainly in steering and braking. With Grimey's numbers the Lotus Type 40 won't steer and shakes my wheel very hard under braking. The Ford GT40 won't steer or stop with either set of numbers, that's a bad combination. With Haiden's numbers the Lotus Type 40 still won't turn and will only shake when I initially hit the brakes, only one hard jolt. The Ford GT40 also does this. The Lotus 49C doesn't have the shaking issue but is very hard to turn. The Formula A shakes my wheel violently when getting above 160MPH or so. The Lotus 78 wouldn't turn either so I took a chance and put the Jack Spade numbers on it and it fixed it right up. I think the wheel shaking problem is related to too much steering gain and probably too much on the other spring settings as well. That fixed the problem when I had my TX but I've got to test it with the V2 to be sure. It might be that the spring settings for PS4 are just too strong for XB1.

GrimeyDog

03-01-2016, 04:32

Random moment...With My FFB Tweek I use 75 on the wheel FFB and I don't usually turn My V2 Wheel FFB to 100... but When i Do... It feels dam Good!!!

tennenbaum

03-01-2016, 04:57

some thoughts on pCars FFB

UPDATE 28.05.16 NEW: My personal approach. The Big 6. ...at the end of the post.
UPDATE 29.04.16 and 14.05.16 NEW: Invisible Headroom. The Factor 5. Details about Mz. The difference between Pneumatic and Mechanical Trail. The I/O curve.

Thanks to everybody for helping and sharing. Especially Grimey, poirq, Haiden, morpwr, JS, skoader, inthebagbud, bmanic, and great minds from other forums (ermo, intelliforce) must be credited for their input and deep knowledge. I didn't create or explored anything new by myself (except "factor 5" may be?), i just brought findings and my own thoughts together. Errors and wrong assumptions are as likely as for sure granted in some parts ;-) Some of my theories and beliefs changed over time, sometimes i had to correct myself massively, and i re-edited some of my posts. I also skipped my FFB settings, which were part of this post before, because i did't find them helpful any more, and i was afraid they could be rather misleading.

There is no right or wrong FFB setting if you like it. But knowing a bit more about the system can help to have much more fun with it. I highly recommend to check out poirq's FFB thread and Jack Spades unparalleled FFB thread. (I apologize for violating some picture copyrights.)

poirq's thread: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1049991&viewfull=1#post1049991

EDIT 29.04.16 (patch 10)

I cleaned up the post, put some new stuff in (blue), and did some edits where new learnings and findings occurred.

Fxyzm
232430 232444

Fx, Fy, Fz are straight force vectors, Fm is a torque force, resulting from the tire's re-alignement momentum, due to its built. This tire re-alignement force is different to the re-alignement force that results from caster and suspension geometry. For a more detailed info about Fm check out this post: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1247377&viewfull=1#post1247377. Here you find a very important statement from dev AJ Weber about Fx and Fz: http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/#post-2182158. Here great fundamental basics from Ermo (just be aware that the Mz definition iin his opening post isn't correct.): http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/

Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm, are measured / given at the contact-patch of the tire.

These 4 forces, resulting from - and effecting - friction between track and tire at the contact patch, describe all possible actio and reactio forces happening between the car's tire(s) and the surface of the track.

These 4 forces transform into a derived torque (trough suspension, pinion and rack, etc.), which is the torque that finally moves your wheel.

The torque strength and direction of the torque that moves your steering wheel depends on the size and position of the tire's contact patch towards the road surface, thus depending on the tire-built and its friction-character, the car's geometric constructional parameters like scrub-radius (resulting from caster and king pin inclination (KPI, not adgustable in pCars)), camber and tow, and spindle arm ("Ackermann") angle, plus environmental conditions like tire pressure, temperature, of the track, etc., plus - last not least - the steering angle (that you do or don't control ;-)

That derived torque - as a result of those many adjustable parameters and conditions computated by the sim's physic engine - represents the torque force that makes your steering wheel turn and rumble. To avoid misunderstandings: By setting Fm (in FFB) to certain values you dial in how much of the Fm resulting from the tire patch you want in the Fxyzm FFB mix. You don't change directly the torque force of the steering wheel rack.

The picture also shows nicely how SoP-Differential (as scaling of the rear vertical load effect, which is actually the difference between right and left load on each wheel) and SoP-Lateral (Fy at the rear wheels) comes into play. Though remember, when mixing the SoP forces into the FFB signal, be aware you add forces to your FFB which in reality aren't be represented through the steering rack. (In a indirect way yes, but not directly). BTW: I don't think that the light-blue Fx forces in the picture are represented by the adjustable parameters?

Spring Mass Damper System

While these basics seem to be quite simple, why is it admittedly so difficult to come up with a suitable baseline FFB setting or good settings in general at all? And why are the settings not really compatible as as soon as you change the hardware (console, pc, wheel) and the person behind the wheel ;-)? And why didn't SMS provide a set of ok-default settings, beside the not-so-ok default set as it is?

The answer lies probably in the fact, that 'cause and effect' appear to be a static affair when you look at the modules and the vectors. But the forces actually build up, fade away, overlap, and counter-act in fragments of milliseconds. Thus creating complex frequency patterns over time that feed the entire steering construction (real, or simulated) trough different stages of the signal chain. The Fyxz forces translate - through rubber, racks, cogs, rods and joints - in many ways into the torque delivered to the steering wheel.

In comparison to such real mechanical force transformations a SIM tries to simulate the same effects by computation of forces that come from a math/physic model. The SIM FFB represents a "system" where each component of the signal stage interacts with all its other components, therefore being a swinging, oscillating, system in whole: A Multiple DOF Spring Mass Damper System. (DOF = Directions of freedom. Here, with car vehicle dynamics with 6 directions: x,y,z, yaw, pitch and tilt). This much in theory. Practically pCars doesn't fully computate such a system, but even while simplifying a lot of things, the pros and cons of such a complex spring-damper-system come into effect in a way that can be quite confusing: see note at the end. I also attached a picture illustrating a row of masses / modules connected with dampers and springs.

That explains why tweaking the FFB is far from simple: You change amplification or damping (smoothing) of just one component (e.g. module "Tire Force", or Relative Adjust Gain") and it effects the entire chain of signals from the tire's contact patch to the steering wheel and the entire way back. That is one of the reason why SMS added so many smoothing/damping adjustment sliders. You ever wondered why you can even choose to set "LINKAGE" as "weight" and "strength" of your own arms holding the steering wheel? Even your body with your arm mass and strength is a part of the Spring-Mass-Damper-System that oscillates depending on the frequency patterns running though it back and forth. Your arms are as much a source of force input as the force on the other side of the chain coming from the friction between road surface and tire.

EDIT 29.04.16: Though there are many possibilities to damp/smooth different parameters practice shows, that most users don't use them much. Usually a "10" damping value with one or two of the Fxyzm and/or SoP forces is enough to prevent from unwanted rattling, interferences or "grinding. I also have the feeling that with the higher patch numbers the devs balanced the cars better and better, so damping/smoothing got more and more obsolete. I also think these dampings sliders show how "open" and fully accessible SMS kept the entire FFB system.

Note: not using any damping can be ok for some cars, but there are cars that definitely need damping. Otherwise you get so much noise and grinding that can compromize the FFB signal pretty much. Don't mistake it as "Road Feel".

Signal chain and clipping.

FyFxFzFm > TireForce > Master spindle scale >> RAG/RAB/RAC > soft clipper > scoop > steering gain >> (telemetry hud) >> FFB Master >> Wheel.

(Remark: Due to mathematics and logic the order of FxFyFzFm and Tire Force multiplier doesn't matter, therefore the attached picture from the official guide pdf can look different. Also the 'steering gain'module wasn't part of the picture at that time

Clipping can be detected visually by the help of the HUD telemetry and should be avoided in each stage of the signal chain, also before the signal reaches the Master FFB (in configuration section of the game). Master FFB must be seen (GrimeyDog pointed that out many times) as a "Volume-Knob", that "hands over" the signal that comes from the last module (steering gain) to the console output and from there to the wheel hardware.

That output signal from last stage module "steering gain" should be "leveled" to full dynamic range from 0 - 1, equivalent 0 - 100%.
100% = when yellow telemetry FFB curve hits with its peaks the top of the frame when cornering right, and hits invisible bottom line at half of the hight of the yellow frame when cornering to the left). Then Master FFB serves as last multiplier stage that delivers signal to the wheel.

With Fanatec wheels the in game FFB master in the global menu seems to work differently, since the Fanatec wheels have their own 'volume knob' that seems to 'overwrite' the game FFB master.

Note: as long as clipping only occurs to the strongest fast peaks ("spikes") or only very quickly from time to time (e.g. in the few corners of track where the highest tire load occurs) clipping isn't a problem. If you're FFB is well balanced i would even recommend to allow a little bit of clipping this way you can increase (intensify) lower forces (thus also minimizing deadzone) without unwanted changes of your general balance of your setting. Allowing a bit clipping can give you 5-10% more details and wheel liveliness without negative sideffects.

Note: The arm angle (google Ackermann) is not a linear scaler. Changing the arm angle can have very unpredictable effects.

More about the signal chain, what's linear and what's not

If my testings are correct (test-wise turning off RAG/B/C module and soft clipper at zero), individual Fx, Fy, Fz input scalings, TireForce, spindle master scale, steering gain, (and FFB master scale ="Game Master FFB") behave pretty linear. Therefore: E.g.: (100 * Fy) * (100 * TF) * (25 * Spindle) * (200 * steering gain) = 1 * 1 * 0,25 * 2 = 0,5 (* Gamer Master FFB). In so far, since RAG, scoop and soft clipper come after Fxyz, TF and spindle master scale, but before steering gain, and because there is no visual signal control in between, you must switch off the RAG/B/C module and / or soft-clippers to know what you eventually feed to RAG and/or possibly soft-clipper, before turning them on.

Check out test #2 and #3 to see the difference of RAC in effect or switched off, while Tire Forces are kept the same: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1274304&viewfull=1#post1274304

EDIT 1 29.04.16 Newer findings and tests still confirm that the FxyzMz, SoP lat, SoP diff, the in car master scalers and TF do scale (multiply) linearly. However, skoader showed (and Jack Spade confirmed) that SG (steering gain) changes the i/o curve shape. It seems with SG values >100 (1.0) the i/o curve starts to change its shape towards a more convex shape in the higher forces. When i did practical driving test, i could feel it that with higher SG values the wheel gets more "weight". (if you want to test the increase of "relative wheel weight" by dialing in higher SG you have to compensate by lowering Fxyzm and/or in car scalers, otherwise your multiplication / amplification in total gets too high.

EDIT NEW 14.05.16: How to read the I/O curve in an X-Y axis coordinate system.
Nothing new here for the experts. Though, possibly some help for newcomers.

Even while it became quite popular to check the wheel linearity with "wheelchecker" and skoaders and dullivans excel sheet based I/O curve viewer http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...=1#post1049991, i had the feeling that it wouldn't hurt to take a closer look how input forces (tire forces) and output forces (that go to the wheel) are related to each other. And how that relationship shows in the i/ curve. I also think getting more familiar with thinking in I/O dimensions helps a lot to get a better understanding for the "deltas". It can be easier to understand pCars FFB system, when you think of how a change (delta) of an input force translates into a change of the output signal, instead of absolute values. See link here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1277651&viewfull=1#post1277651

NEW 29.04.16 THE "INVISIBLE" HEADROOM

The signal resulting from Fxyzm x in car masters x TF that enters the RAG/B/C module and/or the Softclipper module can be higher than 100 (1.0)*. That's why you can play around and choose pretty high Fxyzm forces and high in car masters, plus high TF values as long as you use RAG/B/C module and/or Softclipper as "normalizers" that compress/limit the higher signal values into the normalized dynamic range of 0.00 - 1.00 - at the prize of saturation!. In other words, what's not "squeezed" into that 0.00 - 1.00 range by those two "non linear processing operating modules" will clipp. While using them avoids clipping, they can creates saturation (if tireforces are higher than 1.0). Since most people use RAC in a range between 0.75 and 1.00 (by RAG/B/C module turned on) it can happen to some that they are not aware that they feed the RAC/B/C module with tire forces much higher than 1.00 (due to the "invisible" headroom) which can lead to strong saturation effects (heavy relative wheel weight), while not being aware of it. So the i/o curve rather looks like a horizontal hockey stick with its knee close to the center of the i/o axis. This way a lot of details can be lost.

Often this saturation-effect happens due to RAC clamping, when tire forces are (too) high but can't be detected, because - depending on "fast" tireforces (aka "spikes") and RAG delta torque forces - the saturation of the (more relevant) slower forces is masked. Taking the invisible headroom into account helps a lot IMO to get a deeper understanding of the many different FFB effects that can appear weird on first sight. NB: You can test the existence of the invisible headroom by switching the RAG/B/C module on/off while feeding it with high tireforces... and then use SC to "catch the" the forces >1 . Here you can see Skoader's proper proof: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1189249&viewfull=1#post1189249

*NEW EDIT 14.05.16. FACTOR 5
If there is an "invisible headroom" that can deal with tire forces higher than 1.00, you may wonder how numbers higher than 1.00 can - and shall - happen, while we know that signals shouldn't be higher than 1.00 anyway. Otherwise you get computational clipping inside the game and/or outside the game when your wheel's digital analog converter and/or the wheels mechanical parts clip.

By default SMS sets Fxyzm to 100, spindle master scale (SMS) to 26, Tire Forces (TF) to 100. Since we know these scalers behave linear and according to math distributive, and that 100 = 1.00, we know that values like 1.0 x 0,26 x 1.0 represent a setting that defines how much tire force we want to feed into the second stage of FFB, thus the globals RA, SC, Scoop, SG.

Similar to an audio mixing console no matter of how strong or weak our system-internal signal values are eventually they must be "normalized" into a corridor, a signal range, with absolute values that can match with peripheral devices (the wheel). Besides manipulating RA, SC and Scoop, normalizing the signal to a range of 0.00 - 1.00 is one of the main purposes of the second stage (globals). However the FFB sliders give us already a hint, that values higher than 1.00 might be in play. Most sliders scale up to 200, and SCFO reaches even up to 20 (=2000).

With 1.00 x 0.26 x 1.00 we're for sure on the safe side with a result of multiplication of 0.26. With 0.26 we seem to have lots of headroom before clipping at 1.00 will happen. Really? Actually not! You can easily test it: Switch of RAC and/or SC, make sure SG is set to 100, isolate Fy to get an easy to understand test set-up and you will get clipping when you are cornering a tight corner with maximum tireload. You can test it with different cars and you will see with most cars you can achieve tire loads that lead to clipping even if you set Fy to 20.

Obviously the system interprets internally the value 20 = 0.20 in a way that it causes clipping. Clipping is supposed to happen in the "normalized zone" at a signal level of 1.00. When 0.20 tire force = 1.00 in the normalized signal range zone, there must be a scaling by the factor 5.

(Side note: It doesn't mater here in the internal digital computation realm of the game if 0.2 is 20, or any other value - as long as the numbers are kept relatively the same).

Considering such a virtual scaling factor of 5 between first and second stage of pCars FFB system to be valid, some more pieces fall into place:

Then it is logical that with e.g. Fz (as an example for the other Fxym and SoPs) = 130, and e.g. master spindle scale = 100 and e.g. TF = 75, a result of 0.975 will cause massive clipping. AS LONG as you don't use RAC or SCFO to compress the >1 tire force signal into the normalized 0.00 - 1.00 zone. With the factor 5 things get clearer: 0.975 x 5 = 4.875. So RAC must compress (roughly speaking) the part of the signal that reaches from 1.00 to 4.875 into the zone <1.00. As you can see a lot of saturation must happen, by doing so.

You doubt the factor 5?

Use e.g. a JS setting for e.g. the Ginetta. For the example i use the Fz force.

Fz 133 x SMS 32 x TF 75 = 1.33 x 0.32 x 0.75 = 0.3192
0.3192 x 5 = 1.596

The signal will clip when you switch RAC (soft limiter) off!
Without the factor 5 the 0.3192 value doesn't indicate that the signal will clip.
The "factor 5 result" 1.596 does say: Hi i'm >1.00 so i will clip.

You like JS Fxyzm settings in general, but you prefer them without that little compression that happens with RAC set to 0.85, so you set RAC to 2.00 where it's "out of the way", meaning its operational threshold is higher than your maximum tire forces:
Set Fz = 83. keep SMS 0.32 and TF 0.75
0.83 x 0.32 x 0.75 = 0.1992
0.1992 x 5 = 0.996
0.996 is <1.00, so you won't get any clipping.

And so on...

Another example: You wonder about a setting where someone uses a mix like Fx 100, Fy 100, Fz 100, Fm 140, with spindle master scale 160 and TF 135, with RAC switched off or RAC set to 1.9, but there is no clipping?
Even by leaving the factor 5 aside, you would surely assume there must be clipping. (let's use Fm, since it'S the first force that would clip):
1.4 x 1.6 x 1.35 = 3.024
Now, with the factor 5 you get 3.024 x 5 = 15.12
That is huge! How to get that into the zone <1.00? How come it doesn't clip?
The guy uses SCFO set at a value between 15 and 20 (20 is max). Telling the Softclipper Full Output: Catch forces even up to the hight of 15 or higher and normalize them in combination with SC Half Input into the range <1.00. Of course very strong saturation will happen, but no clipping!

SATURATION
With the factor 5 in mind you get a pretty good idea of how strong saturation effects can be... Often people are not aware of how much saturation their settings produce. Because RAC and/or SC do a good job and due to the quickness of the forces occuring and disappearing you'll never see the "hockey-stick-characteristical" shaping of the output signal in the telemetry. However trying out strongly saturated settings you will always feel the heavy wheel weight with less details.

Knowing about the scaling factor between first and second stage allows you to quickly judge and "design" Fxyzm settings and globals with a certain wheel weight and a certain responsiveness in mind, while already knowing if you want more road fee, or more space for feeling tire slip, etc. Basically it's mainly about which forces do you want to emphasize in general and which forces you lead on purpose more or less into a defined saturation zone, knowing that you can push them this way without masking other forces that you need as linear as possible, so you get as much 'really relevant' steering info with as much details as possible...
If someone wants a heavy wheel, even while his low end wheel doesn't provide much FFB power, you know what to do. If someone wants its "analytic", rather light in general, but likes a lot of curbs rumbles, you know what to do.

Note: Surely there is no proof that the scaling factor between first and second stage of the FFB system must be 5. It can also be 3.5, 4.75, 6, or another value, we cannot measure, beside drawing conclusions with the help of the telemetry hud, but i'm rather confident that some kind of scaling in such a range is happening within the system.

Clipping, RAG, RAB, RAC

Be aware that clipping can happen at all stages. Once happening you can't eliminate it by the following stage(s). Be also aware that "saturation" doesn't have to be necessarily a clipping at 100%. Saturation can also mean that a signal processor stage/modul like RAC relative Adust Clamp levels (compresses) signals to a value of anything between 0 - 1. Try it out, you will find an almost flat line of forces in the telemetry hud at the height of approx 0.4 of the yellow FFB graph box, if you set RAC e.g. to 0.4. Actually one of the reasons you should carefully watch out what you're doing when manipulating RAG, RAB and RAC.

Be experimental with RAG, RAB and RAC, you may like it: Set RAG to 1.3 or higher, RAB to 0.02 - 0.04 (instead of 0.98 what's mostly recommended), and RAC to 2.00 (to avoid any unwanted limiting) you may be stunned how lively and "free-ed" your wheel gets, while keeping the "sharpness" and "accentuation" that you wanted from the RAG in the first place, but without the "clanking" often coming along with RAG and long RA-Bleeding. The reason for it lies in a differential equation first degree math, where the faster bleed times lead to higher number of delta time "packages" making the RAG curve softer (smaller saw teeth, but don't watch out for it in the telemetry hud, you won't see them, the computation is too fast to show) without loosing the accentuation of the original force curve.

One of the other welcomed effects of RAG is that due to its math behind it creates stronger Curbs-Rumbles and similar Fz effects actually without the need of much Fz. Instead, Fy and Fm (and also SoP Diff) start to create effects very similar to Fz effects. That is in so far interesting because Fz forces have a counter-acting (aka called negative or inverse) effect to the torque of the wheel. E.g. you turn left into a corner, Fz makes the wheel go counter-clockwise (towards the corner), instead of counter-pushing clockwise - which what you'd rather expect from FFB. I believe there is a good reasons for that "inverse" torgue effect, but higher Fz values (when the car does weight shifts) can also contradict your wish to feel the wheel's 'weight' during cornering because due to its inverse torque Fz can "eat up" the Fy (and SoP-Diff) effects. (Meaning you get lively road feeling with nice curbs rumbles, but your wheel lightens up too much at the same time while cornering.)

NEW 29.04.16 More testings confirmed that low RAB settings lead to a lighter, vivid wheel, while higher RAB (with values > 0.8:no: EDIT 13.05.16: >0.08 is correct :yes:.) add more relative weight to the wheel with - generally speaking - more constant weight during cornering. While I liked RAB with a very low setting of 0.3:no: 0.03 :yes: for quite a while, i then preferred a value between 0.6:no: 0.06 :yes: and 0.8.:no: 0.08:yes: For those who like to experiment, it's interesting to switch RA entirely off. You may like the analytic pureness, you read the tire load during cornering very detailed. Though without RA you will miss a bit "road feel" and FFB-vividness.

The "Relative Adjust" module and its function is often explained in its short form "as torque delta" which is spot on, but still hard to understand when you're not familiar with what the "delta" means. In brief words, the RA processing operator "measures" the torque of your wheel (i.e. the strength of the FFB signal), every time the torque changes, RA measures how much the change of torque changed. As silly as it sounds. In other words, a sudden strong change leads to higher RA value, than a softer change. That explains why RA "cures" saturation of the wheel: When you get maximum FFB strength/force and the wheel would be at its maximum limit to perform, thus "saturation" setting in, RA recognizes that the FFB signal actually doesn't change any more, therefore just stays at maximum. So since the signal doesn't change - while being just at 100% max., RA detects "no change", thus spitting out the value Zero. That Zero means actually the FFB system reduces the signal strength to Zero. The entire FFB, thus your wheel's counter-pushing is set to zero, so just stops. Since this happens very fast you can't really feel the FFB going back to zero. Because while the FFB changes very fast from 100 to 0 you're already reacting to that torque change with your steering (which is the other element of the FFB feedback loop), thus lowering your pushing, which also happens in milliseconds. While you do so the torque at your wheel changed... which will be detected by RA again and interprets this as a "change", thus spitting out new RA value, which is now not Zero anymore but a value that reflects the change of torque. As you can see it's regulation loop that grants that FFB can never saturate at maximum strength.

At that point it gets obvious why it needs RAB (the bleeding) to prevent RAG from getting caught in it's own loop like a cat trying to catch it's own tail - finally going in circles... The FFB system actually mixes the original un-altered torque resulting from the tire forces with the RA signal, that is a derived signal. Since you can't summarize the original signal with it's derived signal due to some math and logic reasons, the bleeding comes into play: The bleeding sets the timeframe how long the derived RAG signal rules until it bleeds out and the original signal is back into effect. This way the value of RAB defines how often / how fast the system switches between the original force and the derived RA force. As described above, since this happens pretty quickly, due to the inherent weight of masses, wheel and your arms, what you feel is the mix of both, while it's not so easy to feel the switchings...

Now, consider the RAG value setting less as an absolute "gain" value that only defines how strong the RA signal is within the range set by RAC, but rather as an "attack time" defining how much of a torgue change must happen within the given timeframe before RAG is triggered to replace the original signal. In other words: With higher RAG values RAG reacts faster to torque changes, which results in a more "nervous/vivid" wheels that reacts stronger to every change, e.g. if fasr curbs rumbles interfere with the more constant Fy forces, and so on...

Finally RAC sets the absolute value between 0 and 2.00 which defines at what level the RA signal does its work. Be aware the original signal isn't affected by that clamp, so when it comes back into effect (after RA bled out) signal to wheel can jump back up. You can't really see that in the hud visually, because faster and lower forces (spikes and snake and RA mixed in as well) blend into each other so quickly that what you finally see is the "snake" (rather defined by the mix of original slow forces and RAG signal) and the spikes that are too fast to trigger RA, so they are there and show the moment RA signal bled out. (2.00 is possible due to the invisible headroom that is still available at that stage on th esignal chain before the signal may enter SC, or passes SC to hit then the normalized 0.00 - 1.00 dynamic range corridor)

New Edit 14.05.16: Details about Mz. The difference between Pneumatic Trail and Mechanical Trail.
An older post that i brought over here, since the true nature of Fm (aka Mz) is often questioned, and why Fm as a tire force isn't the same as the torque force that finally makes your wheel turn.

Casey Ringley: "They are very different things. Fy depends on lateral force and mechanical trail. Mz is primarily driven by pneumatic trail, what is going on within the contact patch and tire carcass. Important to remember that mechanical trail =/= pneumatic trail. The former is variable with car setup (caster angle, etc.) and steering angle while the latter is dynamically variable with what the contact patch is doing at that instant. Mz tends to peak right around peak slip angle and then fall off rapidly to even go negative as you pass peak. Fy is far less temperamental. It might fade slightly past peak slip angle, but since the force is still in the same direction and only slightly lower in magnitude, the effect on total FFB signal is largely the same."

Briefly:

Check out the little Pajecka magic formula graph picture: Mz (that Casey refers to) is the green line, and Fy is the red graph. It explains why Mz - when peaking - tells you that the tire is close to develop less cornering force, meaning Fy is close to pass its peak and decreases, which leads to less cornering force... meaning the tire looses grip and you're getting closer to understeer. In other words: Mz peaks earlier than Fy.

In detail:

That's why in reality as with the game the driver is looking for settings (mechanical steering geometry, and FFB Setting) that makes him sense Mz, so gets a pre-warning shortly before the tires loose maximum grip. The catch is: Mz (here meant as the tire's Mz) creates less torque (to the steering) than Fy (translated to steering torque through caster, that defines the mechanical trail). That's why most common FFB settings here around work with reduced Fy and relatively increased Mz settings. Though, since most people are not aware of Mz very specific behavior (see green line: it can even go "negative") and that it only builds up around the slip angle, they can't really read it in the FFB mix. Example: The long sweeper curve after the bus stop of Watkins Glen Short. If you isolate Mz (by turning the other forces Fxyz off, you can feel that Mz builds up and disappears quickly (almost leading to rattling wheel) while you steer "around" the most efficient steering angle that grants you the best grip.

thanks to Ermo (at racedepartment forum) here the basics to its all:
Per definition, Mz* = (mechanical trail + pneumatic trail) * cos(caster angle) * Fy

see my explanations below...

it looks a bit scary, but is quite simple if you imagine a leverage that has a certain length (both trails summarized) and with Fy (lateral force) you push or pull on that leverage like on a longer or shorter door handle... the longer the door handle the more torque that rotates the kingpin you achieve...

Important: Mz* (above in the formula)) describes the torque that rotates kingpin, thus the steering wheel. The "Mz" we refer to in the game (FxyzMz) and to which Casey refers to is the torque that happens directly at (or with) the tire's contact patch, due to the tire's specific construction and and thus deformation during cornering. This is the complicated part: The Mz setting (Casey refers to) that we can adjust in the in car FFB settings describes how much "Tire-Mz" comes into effect (in the FFB mix) depending on the specific pneumatic trail of a specific tire. Instead the Mz* above results from the Mz (from tire) plus the Mz that results from caster and kingpin inclination (which creates the mechanical trail.)

Frankly, it took me quite a while until i really understood it... Because the entire finesse of it can be only understood when you get a deeper understanding how that "forms" the scrub radius. And depending on the scrub radius you start to understand why more or less tire-load (thus more or less friction/resistance, due to weight shifts, or aquaplaning, or ackermann angle, or one tire on the green and the other on the track... and so on) effects FFB so much. Even with effects that be can be very counter-intuitive!

Another thing that is often overlooked is that the left and the right front tire build up individually different pushing and pulling forces from both sides of the steering rack (toothed rock that moves the pinion). So the one tire from both tires that develops a stronger torque to its kingpin than the tire on the other side dominates the steering, thus not even your steering wheel but also whats happening to the tire on the other side. That's also the reason why changes of the ackermann angle lead to very complex effects that are hard to predict...

Elmo also contributed this great expanation of pCars FFB fundamentals
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/

here my explanations:

"trail" can be understood as leverage.

mechanical trail = the distance between the point on the road surface when you lenghten (in your mind) the kingpin virtually where it would hit the tarmac and the middle of the tire contact patch. Since the geometric orientation of kingpin depends on caster angle and kingpin inclination, the mechanical trail depends mainly on caster and KPI (which both can be influenced additonally by toe and camber).

pneumatic trail = distance between middle of the contact tyre patch and where the highest Fy will be created due to the tire's deformation of its contact patch, see little picture.

So the core of what Casey says is that the game's Mz (of FxyzMz) is derived from the pneumatic trail (not from the mechanical!). I did some lengthy Q&As with other guys in other forums to research what's officially confirmed now by Casey just recently.

It's actually great that pCars does it as Casey described it, because it shows that he and AJ (the devs for physics and FFB) did a great job: this way its totally logical: each tire model has its specific pneumatic trail, plus each car's steering geometry adds its individual mechanical trail to it (that you can manipulate by your car set ups caster camber toe...), and both together "translates" Fy into a torque to kingpin that moves the rack which turns the pinion which finally makes your (FFB-) wheel turn...

You get the entire picture when you google "Pajecka's magic formula". When you wanna dig deeper check out my former posts, or -for the hardcore enthusiasts- google Brian Beckmann The Physics of Racing... have fun!

here some more references

http://white-smoke.wikifoundry.com/p...ering+Geometry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_trail

SoP yes or no?

I fully understand when people say SoP doesn't belong into the mix, due to good reasons. In my older posts recommend to only use Fxyzm, especially Fy an Fm, since other forces can't be transmitted by the steering rack of the car IRL anyway. Well, so far in theory. Though here my updated thought about SoP-Diff: While Fm stays to be my main source of "reading" the car's behavior and feeling the tires' critical slip angle when turning in and getting out of a corner, and trying to hold maximum side load on the tire, I dial Sop Diff in to a certain degree to get some weight to the wheel while cornering near of the apex as it happens in reality too. I found out to get that weight i can either increase Fy of course - or I can actually use SoP-Diff. More Fy easily leads to that unwanted clanking/cogging effect and/or oscillating around center on straights when not holding the wheel firm, the same way it happens when you increase Fm. Instead more SoP-Diff does pretty the same as Fy (plus some more weight shift info) but doesn't lead this quickly to the clanking and swinging wheel effects.

Soft Clipper

The way SC (SCHI/SCFO) functions isn't well described in the official FFB guide IMO. Without getting into details, it's my personal believe that without knowing and understanding skoader' graphs* (see attachment) it's almost impossible to fully comprehend how these two parameters work together and influence the signal. For most it might be better not to use the soft clipper. You can easily mess with your entire FFB. If you use it keep in mind that it might hinder you a lot to analyze the results when you change other parameters in the signal chain. Before or after the softclipper module. *See Skoaders graphs below and here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1212565&viewfull=1#post1212565

Gut/Body Sim?

So what about the "Gut/Body-Simulation" (the parameter section above the SoP section)? Does anybody know what's the matter with it? I tried it several times with the Ruf 8 GT3 at Watkins Glen. It doesn't seem to work properly. Yet, it seems to create completely wrong effects. (You can easily find that out by setting all other forces to zero, only checking out the gut forces...)

EDIT: Others also say, the body sim is broken.

Low damping/smoothing values?

Smoothing Fx Fy Fz Fm doesn't simply lower the values in an absolute way, instead the value of a "smoothing" setting changes the bandwidth of a frequency-filter and it says how strong the damping shall happen. Frequence filters "damp" the signals depending on their frequency. Simply put: frequency = amounts per swings between high values and low values during a certain time frame. Therefore: Fast rumbling effects have a frequency of lets's say 30 Hz (Hertz) swings/per second. If you set smoothing value high the amplitude of that frequency will be reduced, therefore you feel less "rumbling". Usually you define four parameters:

1) Broadness/Range of Bandwidth of the Damping-Filter
2) ts Center-Frequency
3) the amount of maximal damping (=reduction)
4) The damping curve, i.e. how the reduction proportionally sets in depending on the reduction curve you defined.

(Weird stuff, but in audio-technology a common thing that you find in any mixing console as a part of each channel).

So in pCArs SMS (Slightly Mad Studios) pre-defined per default Bandwitdth, Center Frequency and damping curve and lets you just manipulate the amount of damping.

About Wheel Linearity.

Engineers prefer modules which behave linear, because when you put many in a row, you don't want to compensate for non-linear behavior, and it's nice to tweak something that you know was linear before. But good linearity comes with a steep price tag, and isn't so important in our FFB case. If the wheel hardware has a good straight linearity that's fine and you safe the time to make it linear with scoop knee and scoop reduction, but most often the ideal curve for our purpose looks a bit different anyway:

The same as with "loudness" in audio technology: As long as you don't want to hear a song at live concert volume level (equivalent you're wheel simulating wrist-breaking forces of a real race car), but want to enjoy it at a reasonable level, you want to lift the lower forces and tune down the loud peaks of the song or FFB. Thats called 'compression' which leads to higher 'loudness' while keeping it at relatively lower absolute signal-levels. Obviously by doing so your originally best case straight linear I/O line is changed into a curve that lifts the approx. 0.0 - 0.2 over proportionally, than stays as much linear as possible in the middle, and compresses the higher forces into a smaller bandwidth, since your senses can't differentiate very strong tactile forces (same with light and sound) as good as smaller forces, Therefore there is no need to offer much linearity in the range of stronger forces.

EDIT 29.04.16 Generally speaking, the more linear the Input/Output ratio ("i/o curve or line") is the more analytic and basically "pure" the FFB experience is. I guess it became common sense to say, the more absolute torque your FFB wheel can create the more you may want to keep the i/o curve linear. With wheels that offer lower FFB forces (usually wheels that are less expensive) a little bit convex bowed i/o curve may lead to a better over all FFB experience.

NEW 28.05.16. MY PERSONAL APPROACH

Frankly, i got so used to experiment with different settings, that i never cared much to optimize my own. It depends on my mood. Grimey's i use when i wanna battle and "push". JS' i gladly use when i'm not sure what i want, because his settings are always good out of the box. I never use the SMS 100/100/100/100 default settings.

When i drive my own setting, i switch of RAG/B/C and SC and allow the fast tireforces (spikes) to clip for 20 - 30% and the slow forces (snake) to clip only 5 - 15% in the two, three spots of a track where i get the highest tire load. I start with "my own baseline" FxytFm setting 100/80/86/133, set TF = 100 and set SMS and SoPscale to a relatively small amount (according to the fact that i have relatively high Fx and Fy within the mix). I then adjust SMS and SoPscale to a value that i achieve just a little clipping as mentioned above. (Since FxyzFm, SMS, SoPscale and TF multiply distributively, the only thing that really matters is the result of the multiplication and the ratio between Fx Fy Fz and Mz.)

So obviously i use no compression, but i lift the entire signal for about 20-30 % for the spikes and 5-15% for the snake into the clipping zone (which happens only rarely on the track). You can call that "natural limiting". Those who know about my theories know that i don't see a problem with this kind of "controlled" clipping*. You can actually do it even stronger without much problem, as long as you adjust individually per track. E.g. if you know that you get a relatively much higher tier load in just one or two specific spots on a track you let them clip (since you obviously found out already how to push the car to the max at these spots without flying from the track) and look instead for the majority of other spots where you get the next almost highest tire load. That's where you set your tire forces that they are just close to clip. This way you get maximum FFB dynamic and info for 99% of the track, while 1% clips where it doesn't matter anyway. With this simple method of easily gaining 20 - 30% signal strength, IMO it's easier to achieve more dynamic, wheel weight and responsiveness, than by trying to max out your FFB with difficult RAG/C and SC settings.

(*We often did that as audio mixing engineers. When the guitar sounded distorted anyway, it didn't matter when we added some more distortion by technically induced distortion... what mattered was that we produced a "fat" sound, that was louder and more spectacular that the mixdown from the other studio. Now in the digital days you must be more careful with "headrooms", but the principle stayed the same.)

Saying so - of course - if you combine that track related signal adjustment with well thought through fine tunings with all the other possibilities you can even add some more "high fidelity" to it. Though don't hope you can do it by just taking the track related approach with its natural limiting and combine with e.g. Grimey's or skoader's settings. If you do so, you may have to tweak their tweaks a lot ;-)

I do that "natural limiting" because this way i get a bit more wheel weight and less deadzone without the need to use compression by RAC and/or SC. Which keeps my signal quite linear, and i don't have this spot in the I/O ratio where higher forces get bowed into saturation more or less abruptly, but you don't really know where that spot really is. Also not knowing how the I/O curve looks like in that area where the linear signal changes into subtler or stronger saturation. Which is the main reason in my eyes, why the FFB feel can unpredictably change when you change just one other parameter a bit. With my "uncompressing" setting this can't happen, meaning it doesn't happen that i increase e.g. Mz just a bit, but by doing so i "move" a specific slip angle input force "over the knee" and due to that suddenly into the area of much less differentiation. So every change i do with the ratios between FxyzMz i can feel rather pure along my "linear" i/o curve, instead of not knowing which of the all of sudden got into the "compression knee" area.

However as i pointed out many time, my FFB approach feels weird to most people when they try, because mine has only little relative weight, though it has a lot of dynamic that can be irritating, especially when you crank up the absolute wheel torque strength by setting master FFB high. That said, my FxyzMz baseline setting works for some cars (e.g. the RUF 8 GT3) but not for all the cars. So i find the "one rules it all" idea attractive but not fully applicable. Sometimes when my baseline feels weird with a certain car i use JS in-car values and change it slightly to my taste.

NEW 28.05.16 THE "BIG 6" MOTHERS OF ALL SETTINGS

When you have the chance to take a look at my FFB driving test http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1274304&viewfull=1#post1274304, it gets kind of clear, that the test covers 3 main basic approaches how to utilize the freedom of pCars many knobs in quite different ways. Grimey's with a fair amount of saturation, JS's with his intriguingly maxed out ratios in all aspects, and SMS default. (my own setting in that test rather stands for the "pure" approach with all tireforces kept in the range of 0.00 - 1.30 without RAG and SC. since it's exotic to most, i don't count for it as a basic approach.) But my test didn't cover the forth different basic approach: the one from bmanic, which is fundamentally different than the other three. I always wanted to add a testdrive with his settings to the test, because he for sure stands for an unique basic approach.

And then skoader came and presented a 5th rudimentary different method. From what i see when i look at his numbers, i expect a fantastic practical experience. (Pity i can't test it pracically these days). I think now with his setting, the important "big 5" approaches are made. Possibly morpwr's setting should be added, even that it seems to me like a derivate setting from JS's setting. Because i think morpwr did some "supertuning" to JS' setting. He runs RAB lower and changed the entire FFB feel at its very source by lowering the steering ratio.

So I'd be so great if somebody could expand and complete my driving test by adding bmanics, skoaders and morpwrs setting. I think then we'd created "Big 6", highly maxed out methods to tune pCars' FFB but all with a different "signature" style. Would be great for newcomers, like 6 recepies from star cooks, instead of one "cheat sheet" that would be always a compromise leaving the guys in the dark about the many possibilities... If i overlooked an approach #7 or #8 i apologize, being curious what it could be.

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inthebagbud

03-01-2016, 07:05

Holy moly tennenbaum that's one hell of a write up:yes:

going to need a big mug of tea and large plate of biscuits to settle down and explore the post :D

spacepadrille

03-01-2016, 09:24

Great post Mr Tennenbaum ! Thanks a lot. You use a lot of smoothing... doesn't it means that your inputs are too high ? I'll test these unusual settings right now. Do you have some other cars base ffb tune to share for quick testing ?

PureMalt77

03-01-2016, 10:05

Nice one tennenbaum.
But how do you get to the per-car settings? Do you follow any sort of rule or formula?

spacepadrille

03-01-2016, 10:14

Nice one tennenbaum.
But how do you get to the per-car settings? Do you follow any sort of rule or formula?

very good question ! And how did you set the global FFB if you don't have he per-car setting at start point ?

I just ran the ruf on watkins glenn.... ????? ????? I don't understand, there is no feeling, everything is flat. Am I missing something ?

Edit : Tried to raise in-car ffb to 26 and 36 (hoping a typing mistake in your post), but no, like that I have a big snake thing on straights, no feeling of crossing the start line, and only poor braking feeling. ??? Does anyone else tryed these settings ?

poirqc

03-01-2016, 14:10

Great writeup tennenbaum!

BTW: I don't think that the light-blue Fx forces in the picture are represented by the adjustable parameters? Indeed, you can't set that ingame

SMD: Isn't it SMS ;-)

Gut/Body Sim? This part was probably added to feed some signal to rigs with actuator to simulate G-forces.

Soft-Clipper:
It took a while before i went the SC route. I find that it can work well on low end wheel.

For me, when only using SC without RA, it's the ratio between SCHI and SCFO that's important. It's like the signal is split in 2. 0 to 50% & 50% to 100%. SC is about giving more "space" to the low end or the high end of the signal.

About Steering Sensitivity:
From my understanding, this was added to deal with wheel that have a low DoR(ex: 240°) With that, you can acheive a more "natural", 1:1, steering behavior around TDC. The wheel gets twitch around full lock, but it's a good tradeoff. We should rarely be at full lock. :)

At the same time, it doesn't mean it can't be used!

I think that a good thing to build would be a cheat sheet for FFB tuning. Not something super precise, but something that gives a better FFB right off the bat. Something that would rule out clipping and saturation. Right now, when someone boot the game for the first time, the Default template comes with a Steering Gain of 3 to 5 on the PC, it's way too much. Is it like that on the PS4 and Xbox?

Cheer!

Haiden

03-01-2016, 15:25

Great write up on the forces tennenbaum! You reminded me about SoP Diff’s effect on wheel weight. I think I'm going to play around with that this afternoon, before finalizing my tune. I stopped using SoP, because it was interfering with the feeling of understeer and confusing me about grip, because there's no real difference in the way SoP Lat feels, compared to how tire grip is communicated from the Fy scale. Running SoP Lat, even at low levels, makes me think my tires are closer to the slip limit than they really are, which causes me to back off and run a slower lap. But I don’t think I checked to see if the SoP Diff was having the same effect.

The Arm, as I understand it. Affects the firmness of the wheel around the center. Lower settings result in a loser center. Higher settings result in a stiffer center feel. (I may have reversed that. It's been a while since I've messed with these. :) ) After reading/learning the description, I tested it out and found it to be true. Since then, I don't mess the Arm. Reason being, some cars are supposed to feel loser at the center than others, especially older models. It's like driving an older car or sometimes a bigger car. Their wheels are loser, compared to sportier modern models. I just decided to work under the assumption that SMS has set the Arm accordingly, based on the car's actual mechanical characteristics and therefore always leave the Arm at its default.

Menu Spring is a weird one. The devs and most players say it affects the wheel weight, but only in the menus. Others say it also has an in-game affect. In my experience, the latter group is the minority voice on this. I've tested it, and I know for a fact that it affects the weight in the menus. You can easily tell that by setting it to 10 and saving out of that menu. As soon as the save goes through, the wheel will be extremely light in the next menu. Go back in, set it to 100, and save, and you'll feel the wheel becomes extremely heavy. But whether it was set to 0 or 100, I didn't notice any FFB changes in-game. If it had an in-game effect, I would think it would have been easy to detect, fluctuating between those two extremes.

Regarding your tune. It seems you're amplifying the signal in the globals (FF=75, TF=100, RAG=1.75, and RAC=2.00), and then lowering your in-car Master Scales to compensate (Master Scale=16 and SoP Scale=14). I'm curious as to why you've chosen to boost the multipliers and gains over the actual Spindle scales where the contact forces are actually being calculated. I understand the interchangeable nature of values from a mathematics stand point, but I think people overlook the fact the numbers in the middle (the spindle) aren't static in the equation, meaning they don't work alone. IMO, the concept that 5*2*5=50 is the same as 5*5*2=50 oversimplifies the FFB system and doesn't really apply here. Because, in the case of FFB calculations, the middle values are in the Spindle. They don't work in isolation and influence each other greatly, which is why small adjustments to one scale can also enhance or dull a force from another scale operating in the same spectrum. For this reason, I just don't see how running extremely low Spindle values can deliver a good dynamic range, because the spindle is essentially being choked off. The lack of feel and wide snaking on the straights that Spacepadrille experienced is what I would expect from these settings. The Spindle creates the detail. Choking the Spindle is like removing the tires from the car, or the road itself, because the contact between the tires and road is where most of the detail in the range is coming from.

Anyway... great stuff, man! Makes for good conversation. :)

rams1de

03-01-2016, 15:46

Great contribution tennenbaum.

What stood out to me most is this question you posed.

When Fm is obviously a derived force as a result of how Fx Fy Fz hit the tire and suspension, you may wonder why Fm can be set individually. Well, I wonder too

I wonder in what way we're setting ANY of those forces. They are all derived in their own way by other determining factors.

We're not changing the game physics after the fact but some mysterious way that has been created to feel the effect of one force in relation to another without actually changing the force itself.

I'd love to know more about how this 'remix' of spindle settings work.

PureMalt77

03-01-2016, 16:22

You Have to Check your Graphics Settings again... I leave the temoral setting stock... i think its at 20... But Make sure after Fresh instal you Re Start your PS4 to lock in all Changes... Dont know if it makes a Diff but thats what i do... Thats the only way after updating i can be Sure i get My Same Good Feel Back.

I'm slowly starting to regret the reset I did! Right now i'm getting so much game crashes (blue screen). It was really rare for me such crashes, maybe until like patch 3.0, but after that the game was very stable for me. Now I'm not sure I can run 20 laps without this crashing on me...

But don't worry mate, not accusing you in any way!!! :D

poirqc

03-01-2016, 16:32

Regarding your tune. It seems you're amplifying the signal in the globals (FF=75, TF=100, RAG=1.75, and RAC=2.00), and then lowering your in-car Master Scales to compensate (Master Scale=16 and SoP Scale=14). I'm curious as to why you've chosen to boost the multipliers and gains over the actual Spindle scales where the contact forces are actually being calculated. I understand the interchangeable nature of values from a mathematics stand point, but I think people overlook the fact the numbers in the middle (the spindle) aren't static in the equation, meaning they don't work alone. IMO, the concept that 5*2*5=50 is the same as 5*5*2=50 oversimplifies the FFB system and doesn't really apply here. Because, in the case of FFB calculations, the middle values are in the Spindle. They don't work in isolation and influence each other greatly, which is why small adjustments to one scale can also enhance or dull a force from another scale operating in the same spectrum. For this reason, I just don't see how running extremely low Spindle values can deliver a good dynamic range, because the spindle is essentially being choked off. The lack of feel and wide snaking on the straights that Spacepadrille experienced is what I would expect from these settings. The Spindle creates the detail. Choking the Spindle is like removing the tires from the car, or the road itself, because the contact between the tires and road is where most of the detail in the range is coming from.

Anyway... great stuff, man! Makes for good conversation. :)

When i did tests about RAG (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1195784&viewfull=1#post1195784), i didn't have to lower TF as much to prevent clipping. I don't really know how to explain it, but it's like RAG only affect the torque delta instead of a nominal torque.

About the spindle, if i get your drift, you're saying:
it would be better to have an higher Spindle Scale and some lower FxyzMz value instead of high FxyzMz that gets compressed into a small Spindle scale?

In the end, i think that FxyzMz are all added to each other. The sums of them are then scaled by the Spindle. RAG will then boost or attenuate the value based on the last value. So RAG > 1 may induce wheel acceleration(oscillation) while RAG < 1 maybe induce wheel self alignement?

Thoughts?

RomKnight

03-01-2016, 17:21

Haiden

03-01-2016, 17:53

When i did tests about RAG (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1195784&viewfull=1#post1195784), i didn't have to lower TF as much to prevent clipping. I don't really know how to explain it, but it's like RAG only affect the torque delta instead of a nominal torque.

About the spindle, if i get your drift, you're saying:
it would be better to have an higher Spindle Scale and some lower FxyzMz value instead of high FxyzMz that gets compressed into a small Spindle scale?

In the end, i think that FxyzMz are all added to each other. The sums of them are then scaled by the Spindle. RAG will then boost or attenuate the value based on the last value. So RAG > 1 may induce wheel acceleration(oscillation) while RAG < 1 maybe induce wheel self alignement?

Thoughts?

Not really. The gains and multipliers in the global settings are applied to pre and post Spindle forces as a whole, but they don't interact with the track. They don't actually create dynamic range. They just amplify, modulate, and regulate forces that are calculated elsewhere. The Spindle, on the other hand, is a composite. It actually does interact with the track and calculates the force that the Gains and multipliers affect. What I'm saying is... IMO, when you boost the Gains and Multipliers, you limit your ability to fine tune the force calculations in the Spindle to produce the desired dynamic range. The reason some of Tennenbaum's Spindle scales are low is because he's running FF at 75, in conjunction with TF at 100 and RAG at 1.75. But those globals aren't fine tuning anything. They're just amplifying forces. If the gains and multipliers were lower, it would allow for more room/flexibility when it comes to fine tuning and balancing the Spindle. Now, I'm not saying his settings are wrong, by any means. A lot of this is subjective. If it works for you, then it's right. Period. I just find I have more flexibility when I keep my gains at average levels and use the Spindle to fine tune the dynamic range.

And yes, I agree that the scales are probably all added together and then passed. Which is kind of where I'm coming from above.

GrimeyDog

03-01-2016, 18:12

Regarding your tune. It seems you're amplifying the signal in the globals (FF=75, TF=100, RAG=1.75, and RAC=2.00), and then lowering your in-car Master Scales to compensate (Master Scale=16 and SoP Scale=14). I'm curious as to why you've chosen to boost the multipliers and gains over the actual Spindle scales where the contact forces are actually being calculated. I understand the interchangeable nature of values from a mathematics stand point, but I think people overlook the fact the numbers in the middle (the spindle) aren't static in the equation, meaning they don't work alone. IMO, the concept that 5*2*5=50 is the same as 5*5*2=50 oversimplifies the FFB system and doesn't really apply here. Because, in the case of FFB calculations, the middle values are in the Spindle. They don't work in isolation and influence each other greatly, which is why small adjustments to one scale can also enhance or dull a force from another scale operating in the same spectrum. For this reason, I just don't see how running extremely low Spindle values can deliver a good dynamic range, because the spindle is essentially being choked off. The lack of feel and wide snaking on the straights that Spacepadrille experienced is what I would expect from these settings. The Spindle creates the detail. Choking the Spindle is like removing the tires from the car, or the road itself, because the contact between the tires and road is where most of the detail in the range is coming from.

Anyway... great stuff, man! Makes for good conversation. :)

I agree with this...I dont understand Running the In Car Masters at such a Low Value... to me it seems like you are Choking or Severley Limiting the Very Forces to are trying to Feel.

IMO Master at 16 = on 16% of forces being passed through.

Just My Theory...I find No Reason that we should have to Calculate Spindle forces because those forces are Pre Programmed at a Set Base Value that can be + or - with the Fy,Fx, Sop Lat with the in Car Masters Controling the Final output Volume of those Forces.

The 1 Question that Remains for me is what are the Masters Truely = to??? 100 master = 100% Pass through of forces and 101+ = overdrive??? if this Simple Question could be answered it would end the FFB Mystery.... that has always been my Question because i dont see the Need to have any setting at 101+ if the other settings are set right... its all about Balance.

Also Given the unfinished State that PCars was Released in My Opinion is that SMS just threw the Pre set in Car settings in there with No Rhyme or Reason other than to give a Basic Feel...I find No Reason to Stick to that Low in Car Master FFB pattern because it does Not Give the Best Feel.

Edit: RAC will Cut the FFB forces at the source you can test this by Setting RAC to 50 then Testing the wheel and Looking at the FFB Graph the Graph Line will Stay exactly to the Middle of the Graph box and you will feel Reduced FFB at the Wheel.

This was My Test with 50 RAC... Note the Graph stays to the Middle of the Box... Same Test was Done with 70 and 90 and for each test the Graph line Moved up in the Graph Box according to value tested with increased FFB power at the Wheel... End Result was at 90 the Graph Moved up to the 90% of the FFB Box Volume with at FFB wheel power to match.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM

GrimeyDog

03-01-2016, 18:20

I'm slowly starting to regret the reset I did! Right now i'm getting so much game crashes (blue screen). It was really rare for me such crashes, maybe until like patch 3.0, but after that the game was very stable for me. Now I'm not sure I can run 20 laps without this crashing on me...

But don't worry mate, not accusing you in any way!!! :D

I would Try the Reset again and Make sure you delete all Data...Restart console ,Do a Fresh instal then Restart Consol again.. only thing that i can figure is some how your Not getting a Clean instal...This has been whats been working for Me... Its the only way that i can Guareentee that All Tracks and Cars Feel as they Should... I Make sure everything Closed and i dont Mess with the system during instal.

Haiden

03-01-2016, 18:46

tennenbaum

03-01-2016, 19:45

very good question ! And how did you set the global FFB if you don't have he per-car setting at start point ?

I just ran the ruf on watkins glenn.... ????? ????? I don't understand, there is no feeling, everything is flat. Am I missing something ?

Edit : Tried to raise in-car ffb to 26 and 36 (hoping a typing mistake in your post), but no, like that I have a big snake thing on straights, no feeling of crossing the start line, and only poor braking feeling. ??? Does anyone else tryed these settings ?

Being "offline" ;-) I can only guess at the moment, that you're used to quite high Fz forces, meaning you set your Fz value relatively high, plus possibly strong RAG and SCHI amplifications. I assume you also have higher Fx values (for braking effects). Not to forget, that braking also effects Fz due to weight shift towards the front tires. As said, a lot of personal taste comes into play with the pCars FFB.

It also came to mind, that possibly a majority of gamers prefer a pretty strong FFB in general. Due to my own habits and likes it's possible than i'm just used to absolute FFB forces at my wheel that are probably only 25% - 30% of what most others like. Since the subjective feeling of the overall FFB strength doesn't go linear, if you're used to like 90-100 % FFB strength, you experience subjectively 4-6 times higher FFB forces than i do with my settings. The other way round, with my settings you feel only a fragment of what you're used to.

spacepadrille

03-01-2016, 20:30

skoader

03-01-2016, 21:08

Great post tennenbaum! Quite a bit to chew on there. :)

But just quickly, for the most part your findings match mine pretty closely.

Gut-simulation indeed looks to be broken.

On wheel linearity, a controlled non-linear response such as you describe is IMO a more than reasonable setup.

Well done.

skoader

03-01-2016, 21:20

The 1 Question that Remains for me is what are the Masters Truely = to??? 100 master = 100% Pass through of forces and 101+ = overdrive??? if this Simple Question could be answered it would end the FFB Mystery.... that has always been my Question because i dont see the Need to have any setting at 101+ if the other settings are set right... its all about Balance.

That's my understanding yes.

inthebagbud

03-01-2016, 22:31

My PS4 / T300 FFB settings (for the moment)

Note: You will see that my settings lead to an output at the steering gain out of only approx. 0.5. (instead of using the maximal dynamic range of 1.0)
In a perfect world i could or should increase the Fxyzm input forces proportionally to each other, and/or increase TireForce to level up the signal to 1.0.

My packet of biscuits was not big enough and it will take a while to fully digest your post, as the grey cells do not work as well as the other guys here, but this caught my eye in that you seem to be suggesting that you have measured the output, but I am not sure how you have done this mathematically?

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 01:12

finally almost finished with the man kave upgrades... 48in curved Samsung UHD TV!!! Plays Nice and the curve really adds Extra depth of field.
I built all the tables and set the pedals and chair height to Fit Me and feel like I'm in My 350z... seat came from a Subaru Impreza...2x Buttkickers make for a great back massage!!! LOL... I have them hooked up to play Left and Right and they actually give good info about Road feel and bumps Too...very comfortable for All day racing...I was thinking to get a RS1 play seat but i went just with the TV because i Need space to Hold all of My Equipment.

just waiting to order a new gaming PC... any 1 have any ideas or can recommend a Good high end PC set up??? i want to be Good for a few years before i need to upgrade again.

The 40in Samsung and Tx 458 is my son Lil Grimey_Dogs set up... uuugh but he too into Dragon Ball z game to play Pcars...LOL

tennenbaum

04-01-2016, 01:52

My packet of biscuits was not big enough and it will take a while to fully digest your post, as the grey cells do not work as well as the other guys here, but this caught my eye in that you seem to be suggesting that you have measured the output, but I am not sure how you have done this mathematically?

my biscuits pack is empty now too;-) i "measure" with the help of HUD telemetry FFB graph. that is my peak meter, the reference point. after that it's like in audio technology: your mixing console has a mix out point, that'ss where the peak-meter sits and measures the signal in reference to a norm-level. After that point of the signal chain there is an amplifier and loudspeakers, they can be big or small - as your wheels. What counts is mix console out. analog what comes out last stage FFB which is steering gain module where the HUD graph reads. Look at master FFB as a volume knob of the "external" amplifier. Of course a good sound engineer would try to master a mix that sounds great on small and large loudspeakers for other listeners too. Though, when he only wants to please his own ears and loudspeakers, he would optimize his mix to his own likes...

skoader

04-01-2016, 01:56

FyFxFzFm > TireForce > Master spindle scale >> RAG > soft clipper > scoop > steering gain >> X >> FFB Master >> Wheel. (True or not?)

(Remark: Due to mathematics and logic the order of FxFyFz and Tire Force multiplier doesn't matter, therefore the attached picture from the official guide pdf can look different. Also the 'steering gain'module wasn't part of the picture at that time.)
Nothing ground breaking, but here is a little flow chart I put together over the holidays.
I have colour coded explanations to go with it, but haven't been able to finish it up yet.
224908

tennenbaum

04-01-2016, 02:00

I agree with this...I dont understand Running the In Car Masters at such a Low Value... to me it seems like you are Choking or Severley Limiting the Very Forces to are trying to Feel.

IMO Master at 16 = on 16% of forces being passed through.

Just My Theory...I find No Reason that we should have to Calculate Spindle forces because those forces are Pre Programmed at a Set Base Value that can be + or - with the Fy,Fx, Sop Lat with the in Car Masters Controling the Final output Volume of those Forces.

The 1 Question that Remains for me is what are the Masters Truely = to??? 100 master = 100% Pass through of forces and 101+ = overdrive??? if this Simple Question could be answered it would end the FFB Mystery.... that has always been my Question because i dont see the Need to have any setting at 101+ if the other settings are set right... its all about Balance.

Also Given the unfinished State that PCars was Released in My Opinion is that SMS just threw the Pre set in Car settings in there with No Rhyme or Reason other than to give a Basic Feel...I find No Reason to Stick to that Low in Car Master FFB pattern because it does Not Give the Best Feel.

Edit: RAC will Cut the FFB forces at the source you can test this by Setting RAC to 50 then Testing the wheel and Looking at the FFB Graph the Graph Line will Stay exactly to the Middle of the Graph box and you will feel Reduced FFB at the Wheel.

This was My Test with 50 RAC... Note the Graph stays to the Middle of the Box... Same Test was Done with 70 and 90 and for each test the Graph line Moved up in the Graph Box according to value tested with increased FFB power at the Wheel... End Result was at 90 the Graph Moved up to the 90% of the FFB Box Volume with at FFB wheel power to match.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM

If pCars FFB computations were analog, yes, then low setting values would be a problem. With analog signal chains not using the full dynamic range wherever possible is a total no go.

In the beginning I was also convinced that not using full dynamic ranges would cause non-linearity effects, distortions and other anomalies.

My tests and what other users experienced (I remember also “bmanic” sets pretty low Fxyzm and master spindle values) give reason to believe that the digital signal processing doesn’t have problems calculating even small values over several processing stages. Also not to forget, that SMS itself provides rather low spindle master scale values at default. So basically I don’t think you can “choke” forces.

I come to the 100+ overdrive question in a later post. The question is good! It deserves a deeper look into it and some tests.

And yes, I can fully confirm your findings about RAC. Set RAC to any value between 0.00 and 1.00 you will see “the line” at that height. Therefore RAC is a compressor / limiter analog to audio technology that allows you to set the output “gain”. I couldn’t figure out what the also possible settings between 1.00 and 2.00 do. But they give more reason to assume that pCars internal computation allows for a calculation headroom that is larger than 1.00. Or, RAC 1.00 – 2.00 does the same weird thing that CHFO does, things I can’t explain, nor understand.

In this post here, I’d like to point how – to my understanding – pCars’ 3D Fxyz tire-model works.

I know for you GrimeyDog and many others it’s not knew what I’m explaining in the following. But I was under the impression that sometimes people are not fully aware of how pCars 3D tire model (FxFyFz) really works and how that is connected (or not connected) to the FFB system.

Talking about the 3D tire model may also help to understand that GrimeyDog is right by saying SMS didn’t really come up with presets that tell us how a specific car feels like to drive in approximation to reality.

What I try to explain here is how to deal with the fact that SMS kind of served an empty canvas. (Which is good due to some reasons, but is an endless try to explain why).

And I’d like to give people an idea why the 3D 100/100/100 Fx Fy Fz (and Fm) default set matters when you look for your right FFB setup, but that your choices for a suitable Fxyzm FFB mix are completely separate from the car’s and tire’s individual “true” Fxyzm values, that are “hardwired” in the sim calculation model itself. Separated from the FFB section where you can mess around with the FFB setting as much as you want – the car , or better said the tires have their specific individual Fxyzm characteristics that you cannot and shall not change by fumbling around with your FFB settings ;-).

Basically what you do when you change your FFB settings you just tell the FFB system (that finally moves your steering wheel) how you personally would like to weight the real forces to your liking. Imagine a real car that allows you to manipulate how strong or weak the servo-steering electronic help you with steering. That kind of real FFB manipulation changes the strengths of your servo-steering, but of course not the forces that really happen between tire and road.

By setting Fy for example to 100 (=1.00) you define that every absolute lateral force generated between tire’s contact patch zone and track is scaled into a range of 0-100, or 0 -1.00.

So, let’s say the real maximal lateral force (Fy) a given real tire on a given real track can “take” before starting to slide is 2000 Nm when cornering sharply, by setting Fy to 1.00 you’re defining that these 2000 Nm of the real world get scaled to 1.00, which is the max. possible value in the game’s signal processing chain.

Accordingly, when you corner with much lower speed, the Fy force being created between tire and track might be - let’s say - only 800 Nm. So these absolute 800 Nm scale to 0.40 game Fy value. This way, by defining the scaling factor, you “normalize” / scale absolute forces of the real world into dynamic range corridors of the sim’s mathematical physic model.

Here comes the catch:

When you set the game’s Fy scale value e.g. to 50 = 0.50 it doesn’t change the maximum lateral load the tire can take, which is 2000 Nm. In a sharp corner the tire still delivers Fy 2000 Nm. As said before you SHALL NOT be capable to change the performance-characteristics of the tire with a different FFB setting! Instead with your FFB setting you define how much or how little you wanna feel from these real forces.

Note, when it comes to the “real” forces of e.g. Fy 2000 Nm it doesn’t make a difference if it happens in reality or in the game. In the sim and the real world the tire load at that very moment is 2000 Nm. The only difference is, that the game scaled the 2000 Nm internally to the value 1.00. (At least in the FFB section. Remember, the sim itself – beside the FFB – does the calculations for a specific car and tire with different “hardwired” default settings.

Though, by setting the game FFB Fy scale to 0,50, you define that the absolute 2000 Nm get “normalized” to 0.50 game computation value. In other words, by setting Fy to 50 (0.50), instead of before 100 (=1.00) you decide by free will that you want to “feel” these 2000 Nm not with a FFB strength of 1.00 but 0.50. Which practically means you get only half FFB counter-pushing force to your steering wheel, than before. Turn Fy to zero, all side way forces have gone, and you may just experience Fm or Fz forces (if you kept them on).

You’re actually tweaking reality to your taste. Now you may say, but why shall I tweak reality? Well, SMS set the Fx Fy Fz (and Fm) by default to 100 (1.00). That doesn’t mean that these values come even close to what you would expect to feel at your FFB wheel.

In so far, by setting different Fxyzm values in the cars’s FFB section you are actually creating your own idea of how you’d expect the car should feel on the road.

This may answer the question how do I “build” my Fxyzm mix? Without having a guideline.

Well, I could use e.g. Jack Spades Tweaker Settings (e.g. 30/40/120/80) for a specific car, assuming that these settings give me a realistic driving experience that is individual for every car. Well, not exactly, because that way I experience what Jack Spade thought that a specific car should feel like. WHICH IS FINE! He did a great thing eventually to fill the blank spot that SMS left with its 100/100/100 white canvas! But I don’t know about JS’ hardware, his taste, etc.

So that’s how I do it: Instead of using JS values or SMS blank values I define every Fx Fy Fz Fm value from the scratch on (for a specific car.)

As others said, pCars FFB is really a DIY toolkit.

I start usually with Fm and alter the value so often, until I like what I get back as feedback, therefore a specific steering behavior that seems logical to me knowing what Fm means and does in reality. (In one of my previous posts I attached a diagram that shows how Fm and Fy stay in relation to each other depending on the slip angle of the tire. Google “magic formula”).

I do the same steps with Fz isolated (turning the other forces to 0) just with different goals of what I want to explore. E.g. do I like the feeling when I drive on curbs, do I like the weight shifts of the car when braking, etc.

Same with Fx. I check how breaking feels, or accelerating with front FWD cars, etc.

Then, step by step, I mix the forces together checking out how it feels then in driving situations of which I have already a good idea how I’d expect the car’s FFB should feel like. This way I try to rule out negative effects when the different forces interfere with each other in way I don’t like it. For each force I also check its smoothing value, until I like it. (Or what’s necessary if I don’t want graininess and other flaws). I do that in multi passes where I isolate forces, and I then readjust, when I have the feeling the force mix is ok.

When I’m done with the mix Fx Fy Fz and Fm I go further and try different RAG, RAB values. (How I deal with RAC and other compression limiter possibilities is a different thing. I have to postpone a description to a later time.)

However while I create my Fxyzm mix I keep all non-linear working modules (RAC SCHI SHFO) switched off! This way I build up a solid knowledge how a specific car feels with a specific basic Fxyzm mix. Due to that I can judge how RAG, SCHI and SCFO, and scoop, etc. effect my basic Fxyzm set up.

It is a going back and forth optimization. Because after having found nice RAG, RAB settings that intensify the basic Fxyzn feeling, I find subtleties in the Fxyzm mix that can only be corrected by going back to the source, therefore the Fxyzm forces.

The only way not to get seriously confused in the middle of so many influencing modules and factors I always keep the signal chain in mind and rely on what I learned (muscle memory) from my testing with Fyxzm only. In fact I really do drive many rounds just checking out e.g. Fm, while all other forces are turned off.

Admittedly it needs hundreds of rounds on the same track that serves me as a “test ground”. Because my way to create my FFB settings need a stable reference. Otherwise I can’t detect precisely enough the results of my setting chances. It’s a pity SMS doesn’t give us a reference test track, so we could compare our findings more easily.

Hope this made some things a bit clearer.

tennenbaum

04-01-2016, 02:09

Nothing ground breaking, but here is a little flow chart I put together over the holidays.
I have colour coded explanations to go with it, but haven't been able to finish it up yet.
224908

GREAT!

tennenbaum

04-01-2016, 02:15

Hi tennenbaum,
I highly respect what you wrote on the FFB system, I agree 100% with you that most of the settings we can see are too strong, and that some can prefer driving with precision only with fingers, but I can't figure why with a so huge and deep knowledge of the FFB system you are driving with that large snake effect on straights. It's like driving a boat ! ;-) Anyway, I was really pleased reading you (twice !) and I thank you again for sharing.

Hi spacepadrille,
it's possible that i oversaw something. (being blind in my own spot ;-) May be i really feed the RAG with a signal range that has not enough dynamic range. Since RAG does non-linear calculations it might make a big difference. If you post your settings it might help me to find out...

poirqc

04-01-2016, 03:02

About the nominal forces...

SpindleFxyzmScale (Fxyzm Scale)
Individual scales on the components going through the spindle/rack. To get pure rack forces,
leave these all at the same value. 1.0 is a convenient value for this, and use
SpindleMasterScale to dial overall spindle force.
This means that, like Jack Spade once said. It's the ratios of those 4 Scales that's important. With that said, some tweaking based on taste and hardware used, like tennenbaum said is a good thing, since were not physically in a car.

Witch then leads to:

SpindleMasterScale (Master Scale)
This is a multiplier on all of the front tire forces. This was added to allow the following four
scale to default to 1, and be more intuitively like “weights”.

When using only front wheel forces, MasterScale and Tire Force are swappable. When using both front and rear wheels, TF should only be changed when the the FxyzFm & SoP Balance is dialed?

Now, how actuals number present themselves...?

Does a Fxyzm @ 1 and / Master Scale @ 0,25 feels the same as Fxyzm @ 0,50 / Master Scale @ 0,50?

That will have to wait for tomorow.

Haiden

04-01-2016, 04:31

I've been testing both Grimey's and Haiden's recommendations and on most of the modern stuff they both work fine. The issues I've had have been related to the classic stuff. Mainly in steering and braking. With Grimey's numbers the Lotus Type 40 won't steer and shakes my wheel very hard under braking. The Ford GT40 won't steer or stop with either set of numbers, that's a bad combination. With Haiden's numbers the Lotus Type 40 still won't turn and will only shake when I initially hit the brakes, only one hard jolt. The Ford GT40 also does this. The Lotus 49C doesn't have the shaking issue but is very hard to turn. The Formula A shakes my wheel violently when getting above 160MPH or so. The Lotus 78 wouldn't turn either so I took a chance and put the Jack Spade numbers on it and it fixed it right up. I think the wheel shaking problem is related to too much steering gain and probably too much on the other spring settings as well. That fixed the problem when I had my TX but I've got to test it with the V2 to be sure. It might be that the spring settings for PS4 are just too strong for XB1.

I created my tune with the Formula A, and then tested it in a variety of cars, even the classics. I do feel some minor oscillation in the Formula A at extremely high speed, usually near the end of a straight when I’m approaching max, but nothing I would call violent. I can hold the wheel loosely and prevent it from happening. In fact, it really only really happens if I let go of the wheel, which is obviously something I wouldn’t do in RL if I was traveling at that speed. :) When I tested the Lotus classics, I first tried them with the default settings. The steering is just slow, even with the defaults. I can't think of anything in my global settings that would affect the steering like that. I made very few and minor changes to the globals. And in-car settings, wouldn't have that affect. But like I said, it happens with the defaults, too. The vibration while braking , probably has to do with the mechanics of the older cars and how braking forces are coming through the spindle. You can try lowering Fx, if you want to get rid of it. In the more modern cars, heavy braking comes across as a slight pull in the wheel. Some people may not like that, but I do, because braking eats up grip, and the feeling reminds me of that when I'm cornering. The Lotus 78 is one of my favorites, and I drive it often. I don't have any problems with my tune. Steering is fine, and I don't get any shaking or vibration when braking. But I did notice that in some of the other classics, if I was braking or left it in a gear too high, the car understeered like crazy, and just wouldn't turn. I had to adjust my driving to brake hard first and come off them before turning in. That seemed to work, as long as I down shifted to the appropriate gear for the speed.

Haiden

04-01-2016, 04:50

Edit: New/updated settings here:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1239906&viewfull=1#post1239906

skoader

04-01-2016, 06:15

And yes, I can fully confirm your findings about RAC. Set RAC to any value between 0.00 and 1.00 you will see “the line” at that height. Therefore RAC is a compressor / limiter analog to audio technology that allows you to set the output “gain”. I couldn’t figure out what the also possible settings between 1.00 and 2.00 do. But they give more reason to assume that pCars internal computation allows for a calculation headroom that is larger than 1.00. Or, RAC 1.00 – 2.00 does the same weird thing that CHFO does, things I can’t explain, nor understand.
My understanding is that RAC values higher than 1.0 are only useful when Relative Adjust is used in concert with Soft Clipping. So, if you're hitting the soft clipper in the 0.0 - 2.0 range (which it will compress back down to 0.0 - 1.0 when properly configured) then you can still apply a relative adjust clamp at your desired level.

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 06:50

Holiday break ends tonight. It's back to work tomorrow, so I'm done testing and tuning. And, unless SMS changes the FFB in a future update, I think I'm done tuning for a while. Reason being, I played F1 2015 and Forza 6 over the weekend and realized something, PCars’ FFB feels better than any console racer I’ve ever played. Which made me ask, if it's the best, why am I still messing it? I think it’s time to climb out of the rabbit hole and enjoy the game. :) I miss actually racing, and it's time to enjoy this new tune. I was testing yesterday and took a little too much curb on a corner, which caused the left side of the car to lift of the ground. Between the movement in helmet cam and what I felt in the wheel, my brain was actually duped into thinking the left side of my rig lifted off the ground...LOL. It was so cool, I did it again, just to make sure it happened. :)

Anyway, if you're interested, give these a shot and let me know how they work for you. If you run into a specific problem, let me know, and I'll give you some tips on what to adjust to get it to your liking. Again, this tune is only for the CSW-v2. I created it on PS4, so it's probably not gonna feel the same on Xb1, without making some changes to the global settings. PC, maybe. But it's definitely not for any setup that doesn't allow the final force output to be attenuated outside of the game at the wheel level, or through a PC driver. You can use the wheel's force settings to increase the strength of this tune without affecting the balance of the game globals and in-car settings.

Fanatec CSW V2 Wheel base settings:

Wheel base tuning: Sens: AUT | FF: 75-85 | SHo: 100 | ABS: OFF | Lin: OFF | Dea: OFF | Dri: OFF | For: 100 | Spr: 100 | Dpr: 100 |Brf: 40

Driver settings: Driver/FW 231/142

In-game: FFB Calibration

Tire Force: 100
Force Feedback: 45

Per Wheel Movement: 0.00
Per Wheel Movement Squared: 0.00
Wheel Position Smoothing: 0.04

Deadzone Removal Range: 0.00
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.01

Linkage Scale: 0.00
Linkage Stiffness: 1.00
Linkage Damping: 1.00

Relative Adjust Gain: 0.96
Relative Adjust Bleed: 0.11*
Relative Adjust Clamp: 0.92

*You can try bumping the Bleed up to 0.12 or 0.13. It'll create more play in the wheel, but it'll require more corrective input from the driver. Depending on your personal preference, you might like it. Vice-versa for decreases.

Scoop Knee: 0.70
Scoop Reduction: 0.15

Soft Clipping (half input): 0.00
Soft Clipping (full input): 0.00

Menu Spring Strength: 0.30
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 0.75 (Increase this if you think the wheel is too light in slow corners.)
Steering gain: 1.00

In-game Pedal Configuration (Sensitivity and Deadzones):

Throttle Deadzone: 5
Throttle Sensitivity: 50
Brake Deadzone: 6
Brake Sensitivity: 40
Clutch Deadzone: 7
Clutch Sensitivity: 35

In-Car FFB Settings:

Master Scale: 70
Fx: 74
Fy: 56
Fz: 84
Mz: 86

All Smoothing Scales: 0

Arm: Default

SoP Scale: 0
SoP Lat: 0
SoP Diff: 0
SoP Damp: 0

Agree 100% i will Test when im Board or the Online Lobbys are a Smash Fest... but im Done Tweeking... I've just been enjoying PCars Since 5.0 update Same Tweek Still working No Need to Change it... Hopefully they will Bring Back 6.0 because it Made the Tweek Perfect... Feels Great with 7.0 but after 6.0 everything else is Sub par at best.

Nice Work #'s Look this will work...(I Guess every 1 allready Knows Im partial to High in Car Masters... LOL)... same Globals i Run in My Tweek + or - 1 or 2 Numbers... I settled at 0.12 RAB its the Happy Medium.... Scoops are within -2 and +3 I will try your in Car Settings with My Scoops then Test with yours Scoops i think the Feel will be Pretty Close.

"The Force" within the High in Car Masters Awakens and Grows Stronger Every Day...Welcome to the Dark Side!!! Aaah ha ha haaa....(Evil Laugh)

Beautiful Part is you Can Basicly Run same FFB with Every Car with this Method... I Run Same FFB every Car and All Feel Good.

8luemongoo2e

04-01-2016, 07:22

Glad i could help a little, im not sure im even barking up the right tree as it were but i made that diagram to visualize what i had conceived though most of it was guess work after trying to read numerous posts. I am a visual person for the most part. Ive cleaned up the image and my steam guide a little.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/352770370133200077/100F74E3A17FC9653A94999320B45C2B2FDFE409/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/352770370133538594/CC01DD243367FB3A4CB9E15B7AEE2DF19EBA3EA2/

After reading through your guys most recent posts i set about doing a little testing myself. A point i was trying to make in the diagram is i believe Fx is blended with sop Lat and Sop Dif. I not belive Sop is a canned effect but an offset(slight delay) duplicated and some how dampend force generated from the same signals for the front spindle forces. Yesterday i made a template and my own set of tweaker files from one of jack spades i stripped out settings that overrode any global settings:

KEY: Deleted Changed Varriable

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>



<config>
<value TopologyVersion="4" />

<value SpindleMasterScale="0.27" />

<value SpindleArm="5.0" />

<value SpindleFxScale="-1" />
<value SpindleFxLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleFyScale="1" />
<value SpindleFyLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleFzScale="1" />
<value SpindleFzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleMzScale="1" />
<value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SoPScale="0.27" />

<value SoPLateral="1" />
<value SoPDifferential="1" />
<value SoPLoPass="0.0" />

<value RelativeGain="0.0" />
<value RelativeBleed="0.0" />
<value RelativeClamp="0.0" />

<value ArmScale="0.0" />
<value ArmMass="0" />
<value ArmStiffness="1.0" />
<value ArmDamping="0.0"/>

<value GutScale="0.0" />
<value GutLongScale="0.0" />
<value GutMass="50.0" />
<value GutStiffness="1.0" />
<value GutDamping="0.0" />

<value ScoopKnee="0.0" />
<value ScoopReduction="0.0" />

<value TightenCenterRange="0.0" />
<value TightenCenterFalloff="0.1" />

<value SoftClip="0.0" />

<value BaseDrag="-0.0008" />
<value BaseDragSqr="0.0004" />
<value BaseDragLoPass="0.04" />

<value DisableDynamicSpring="true" />
<value DisableLockSpring="false" />

<value DisableScrub="true" />
<value DisableThrottleVibe="true" />
<value DisableJolt="true" />
<value DisableWheelSpin="true" />
<value DisableGearChange="true" />
<value DisableRumbleStrip="true" />

</config>

note not every spindle arm or Spindle Master Scale and SoP Scale value is the same. Things feel better as far as what the car is doing but the edge of control was still buried under an obnoxiously heavy weight most the time, even in a cat 7 classic. Adjusting any of the global settings would loose detail... so i ended up back at the spindle & sop page.

I saw your note about the Fm is Mz, being the self aligning torque however in my testing lowering it did not change much, not nearly as much as trying Fx turned down to .80, .75 .66 .50 and .33 and finally 0. With it off the car feels almost feathery. Fx seems to add some bit of force to the overall sense of weight of the car. I settled on 50% which gave a lot more feeling for what the car is doing. also the weight from down force does not just suddenly dump on but i can feel it gradually build. ill need to test with a few more cars first. To me it feels like Fx might be the aligning force... no clue what Mz is but feels ok at 100

I may try stripping values for Arm Angle, Master Scale and Fx out if the tweaker files act as pass-though. Might be better to let users set their own.

Link to the full steam guide http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=584593355

spacepadrille

04-01-2016, 10:30

Hi spacepadrille,
it's possible that i oversaw something. (being blind in my own spot ;-) May be i really feed the RAG with a signal range that has not enough dynamic range. Since RAG does non-linear calculations it might make a big difference. If you post your settings it might help me to find out...

Hi tennenbaum, I was using your exact settings (global and per-car) with the Ruf GT3 on Watkins Glenn, T300 & PS4. The feeling was very light, but I can feel brakes and some understeer, and there was a big big non natural snake effect on straights.

I'm using morpwr's global settings as reference, with JS's Classic without Sop, so I'm not coming from a "strong" or "heavy" feeling.

Gofast01

04-01-2016, 10:46

Interesting�� I will give it a go later today. But what is BRF??

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 11:20

Interesting�� I will give it a go later today. But what is BRF??

Its only on the CSW wheel when using the V3 Pedals... BrF= Brake Reduction Force.... It takes the Place of the Brake adjustment Knob on the V1 & V2 Pedals.

BigDad

04-01-2016, 12:05

Holiday break ends tonight. It's back to work tomorrow, so I'm done testing and tuning. And, unless SMS changes the FFB in a future update, I think I'm done tuning for a while. Reason being, I played F1 2015 and Forza 6 over the weekend and realized something, PCars’ FFB feels better than any console racer I’ve ever played. Which made me ask, if it's the best, why am I still messing it? I think it’s time to climb out of the rabbit hole and enjoy the game. :) I miss actually racing, and it's time to enjoy this new tune. I was testing yesterday and took a little too much curb on a corner, which caused the left side of the car to lift of the ground. Between the movement in helmet cam and what I felt in the wheel, my brain was actually duped into thinking the left side of my rig lifted off the ground...LOL. It was so cool, I did it again, just to make sure it happened. :)

Anyway, if you're interested, give these a shot and let me know how they work for you. If you run into a specific problem, let me know, and I'll give you some tips on what to adjust to get it to your liking. Again, this tune is only for the CSW-v2. I created it on PS4, so it's probably not gonna feel the same on Xb1, without making some changes to the global settings. PC, maybe. But it's definitely not for any setup that doesn't allow the final force output to be attenuated outside of the game at the wheel level, or through a PC driver. You can use the wheel's force settings to increase the strength of this tune without affecting the balance of the game globals and in-car settings.

Fanatec CSW V2 Wheel base settings:

Wheel base tuning: Sens: AUT | FF: 75-85 | SHo: 100 | ABS: OFF | Lin: OFF | Dea: OFF | Dri: OFF | For: 100 | Spr: 100 | Dpr: 100 |Brf: 40

Driver settings: Driver/FW 231/142

In-game: FFB Calibration

Tire Force: 100
Force Feedback: 45

Per Wheel Movement: 0.00
Per Wheel Movement Squared: 0.00
Wheel Position Smoothing: 0.04

Deadzone Removal Range: 0.00
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.01

Linkage Scale: 0.00
Linkage Stiffness: 1.00
Linkage Damping: 1.00

Relative Adjust Gain: 0.96
Relative Adjust Bleed: 0.11*
Relative Adjust Clamp: 0.92

*You can try bumping the Bleed up to 0.12 or 0.13. It'll create more play in the wheel, but it'll require more corrective input from the driver. Depending on your personal preference, you might like it. Vice-versa for decreases.

Scoop Knee: 0.70
Scoop Reduction: 0.15

Soft Clipping (half input): 0.00
Soft Clipping (full input): 0.00

Menu Spring Strength: 0.30
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 0.75 (Increase this if you think the wheel is too light in slow corners.)
Steering gain: 1.00

In-game Pedal Configuration (Sensitivity and Deadzones):

Throttle Deadzone: 5
Throttle Sensitivity: 50
Brake Deadzone: 6
Brake Sensitivity: 40
Clutch Deadzone: 7
Clutch Sensitivity: 35

In-Car FFB Settings:

Master Scale: 70
Fx: 74
Fy: 56
Fz: 84
Mz: 86

All Smoothing Scales: 0

Arm: Default

SoP Scale: 0
SoP Lat: 0
SoP Diff: 0
SoP Damp: 0
This is nearly the same globals i use on my Fanatec 911 GT2 but my rag is 0.98 and my rab is 0.12 and i do use Jacks 66% for all cars . Sorry G Dog i just think and feel all cars do need their own in car ffb . 1 car in the same class as another just feel to different , steering to weak or no understeer feel etc . But i do think u guys did help Noobs like me understand the pcar animal . Thanks .
Oh and ddr at 0.11 and ffb at 28 , weird but feels more detail at low ffb than high .

Haiden

04-01-2016, 12:40

"The Force" within the High in Car Masters Awakens and Grows Stronger Every Day...Welcome to the Dark Side!!! Aaah ha ha haaa....(Evil Laugh)

Beautiful Part is you Can Basicly Run same FFB with Every Car with this Method... I Run Same FFB every Car and All Feel Good.

Ha! Thanks. I honestly don't think the globals require all that much work from default, at least not with the CSW-v2. That's probably why we're so close. But I don't think high in-car masters are a must, per say, just that they provide you with more room/flexibility to fine tune your forces. The higher your gains and multipliers in the global settings, the lower the values your able to use in the in-car scales. The lower the in-car values, the less range you can create between scales when distributing the forces. I think it depends on preference, and how your brain is wired.

This is nearly the same globals i use on my Fanatec 911 GT2 but my rag is 0.98 and my rab is 0.12 and i do use Jacks 66% for all cars . Sorry G Dog i just think and feel all cars do need their own in car ffb . 1 car in the same class as another just feel to different , steering to weak or no understeer feel etc . But i do think u guys did help Noobs like me understand the pcar animal . Thanks .
Oh and ddr at 0.11 and ffb at 28 , weird but feels more detail at low ffb than high .

I'm starting to question the one tune for all thing, as well. But not on a per car basis, just between classes. Weaker steering and certain mechanical differences are expected between cars. Not all cars are the same. But, when it comes to things like feeling understeer and road feel, I'm wondering if it might not be better to have a tune for certain top level classes/categories, like Open Wheel, LMP, GT, Classics, and Road. All the cars in a particular category would use the same tune, so you can tell the differences, and they each feel unique. But each category would have a slightly different in-car settings. No big differences, like JS settings. But subtle changes like, and increment or two higher on the Fx for one category, or a little more or less Mz in another to get a little more understeer feel. I don't know. For now, I'm done tuning, but I'm gonna keep this in mind as I hop from car to car and get a feel for how things change.

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 13:06

This is nearly the same globals i use on my Fanatec 911 GT2 but my rag is 0.98 and my rab is 0.12 and i do use Jacks 66% for all cars . Sorry G Dog i just think and feel all cars do need their own in car ffb . 1 car in the same class as another just feel to different , steering to weak or no understeer feel etc . But i do think u guys did help Noobs like me understand the pcar animal . Thanks .
Oh and ddr at 0.11 and ffb at 28 , weird but feels more detail at low ffb than high .

That is the Beauty of PCars FFB system that we can Create the Feel that best fits our Individual FFB Taste....IMO The Relative and Scoop Settings is where the True Majic Happens and the In Car settings Should be Set to personal Taste.

It is Great to See Soo Many Different Opinions and Tweeking Methods being discussed With No Fussing or Fighting...No Offense Taken Please post feel Free to Discuss your point of view and opinion.... Thats what this thread is about... We are all trying to achieve the Same thing through Different Methods.

The world would be a better Place if every 1 could Share Different ideas like it has been done in Here... Kudos and Cheers to All.

inthebagbud

04-01-2016, 13:09

[QUOTE=BigDad;1205268 . Sorry G Dog i just think and feel all cars do need their own in car ffb . 1 car in the same class as another just feel to different , steering to weak or no understeer feel etc . [/QUOTE]

My brain says that 1 set up should suit as the road doesn't change for each car/class. If I get in different cars I do not adjust my body senses to modify the feeling I get, my senses stay the same but the road feel signal being received is modified based on engineering set up and equipment such as springs, tyres etc that are fitted to the car.

I appreciate that different people can have different senses and therefore may have have different settings but not a different setting for each car or class

However I ran the Caper stock car last night and with my settings there was virtually no feedback what so ever where as the RUF was lovey to drive

BigDad

04-01-2016, 13:44

My brain says that 1 set up should suit as the road doesn't change for each car/class. If I get in different cars I do not adjust my body senses to modify the feeling I get, my senses stay the same but the road feel signal being received is modified based on engineering set up and equipment such as springs, tyres etc that are fitted to the car.

I appreciate that different people can have different senses and therefore may have have different settings but not a different setting for each car or class

However I ran the Caper stock car last night and with my settings there was virtually no feedback what so ever where as the RUF was lovey to drive
That's cool Mate , to each their own .
From what i gather the in car ffb doesn't represent my body but side movement , braking , curb feel and so on of the car and that stuff changes per car however suttle , thats why IRL a Toyota Corolla feels more refined than say a Mazda 3 to drive for instance , its not my mind or body thats different but build quality , wheel size , types of suspension and so on .
I dont think huge adjustments are needed but thats just me , and ive got all the time to experiment .
Anyway i dont think i can get much more out of my Fanatec but i will keep trying as im sure alot of you guys will .
The joys of the first ever proper sim on console and many more to come .

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 13:55

Ha! Thanks. I honestly don't think the globals require all that much work from default, at least not with the CSW-v2. That's probably why we're so close. But I don't think high in-car masters are a must, per say, just that they provide you with more room/flexibility to fine tune your forces. The higher your gains and multipliers in the global settings, the lower the values your able to use in the in-car scales. The lower the in-car values, the less range you can create between scales when distributing the forces. I think it depends on preference, and how your brain is wired.

I'm starting to question the one tune for all thing, as well. But not on a per car basis, just between classes. Weaker steering and certain mechanical differences are expected between cars. Not all cars are the same. But, when it comes to things like feeling understeer and road feel, I'm wondering if it might not be better to have a tune for certain top level classes/categories, like Open Wheel, LMP, GT, Classics, and Road. All the cars in a particular category would use the same tune, so you can tell the differences, and they each feel unique. But each category would have a slightly different in-car settings. No big differences, like JS settings. But subtle changes like, and increment or two higher on the Fx for one category, or a little more or less Mz in another to get a little more understeer feel. I don't know. For now, I'm done tuning, but I'm gonna keep this in mind as I hop from car to car and get a feel for how things change.

I Agree with this its about personal FFB Taste... I use No assist and i Like the Feel of SoP.. But when i had assist on the SoP did Not Feel Right to Me because the Assist try to Curb or Tame the Very Fices SoP Creates...aslo i drive only in Car View so i find the SoP a Good Feel it Lines up with the Camera Shake.

There will always be Differences some like SoP Some Dont that determins the in Car Settings used.

I also Change the "MZ" for Cars Lower than Gt3 because they are Not Pure Race Cars so i Lower the "MZ" because Lower than Gt3 the Cars Have More Body Flex and Roll so the Cars Dont Need such Sharp Snappy Steering... I think i noted that in the PDF... I Cant Remember... But i do Change the "MZ" per Car until the Steering Feels Natural to the Car When Racing Car Classes Lower than Gt3... Were on the Same Page.

IMO The Masters Being set High is Very Wheel Dependent... Ex: the TM Wheels Have a Much Smaller Rim than the V2 so High in Car Masters Can Make the Wheel Feel Very Heavy and Strong due to Less Leverage because of the Smaller Rim Size...This Simple Point Has to be Considered it makes a Huge Difference in Feel... i believe High Masters Bring out the Best in the V2.

Gofast01

04-01-2016, 14:00

Thanks for a quick and good anser! 😀

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 17:03

poirqc

04-01-2016, 17:40

Haiden

04-01-2016, 19:30

My brain says that 1 set up should suit as the road doesn't change for each car/class. If I get in different cars I do not adjust my body senses to modify the feeling I get, my senses stay the same but the road feel signal being received is modified based on engineering set up and equipment such as springs, tyres etc that are fitted to the car.

I appreciate that different people can have different senses and therefore may have have different settings but not a different setting for each car or class

However I ran the Caper stock car last night and with my settings there was virtually no feedback what so ever where as the RUF was lovey to drive

That's basically what I'm feeling/thinking. For the most part, my tunes works in all the cars I love to drive--Formula A, C, Lotus 78, the Renault turbo, GT classes, etc. But when I was randomly testing cars, I noticed that there were a few that didn't seem to have enough feedback when it comes to things like understeer, and I don't think it was just because the cars are different. I expect a different feel from car to car, and don't want to change that. But I think a couple tweaks here and there (between classes, not individual cars) might be needed. Or is it realistic to think that race cars in the 70 didn't have any feeling of understeer?

poirqc

04-01-2016, 19:52

Or is it realistic to think that race cars in the 70 didn't have any feeling of understeer?

Google wasn't my friend today.

We need input from old coots! :)

morpwr

04-01-2016, 20:32

That's basically what I'm feeling/thinking. For the most part, my tunes works in all the cars I love to drive--Formula A, C, Lotus 78, the Renault turbo, GT classes, etc. But when I was randomly testing cars, I noticed that there were a few that didn't seem to have enough feedback when it comes to things like understeer, and I don't think it was just because the cars are different. I expect a different feel from car to car, and don't want to change that. But I think a couple tweaks here and there (between classes, not individual cars) might be needed. Or is it realistic to think that race cars in the 70 didn't have any feeling of understeer?

Race cars and tires of the 60-70s were a handful to drive in most cases. The tires if you aren't old enough to have ever driven bias ply tires were crap by todays standards. If you spit on the ground bias plys would spin.lol Yes unfortunately bias plys were still around when I started driving and being I own a shop that repairs a lot of old stuff I occasionally get a reminder of how bad the early stuff was compared to today. You can tell the minute you get in a car the has bias ply tires on it.

Haiden

04-01-2016, 21:10

Race cars and tires of the 60-70s were a handful to drive in most cases. The tires if you aren't old enough to have ever driven bias ply tires were crap by todays standards. If you spit on the ground bias plys would spin.lol Yes unfortunately bias plys were still around when I started driving and being I own a shop that repairs a lot of old stuff I occasionally get a reminder of how bad the early stuff was compared to today. You can tell the minute you get in a car the has bias ply tires on it.

I understand they don't have the same grip levels, but can you feel the understeer?

Jezza819

04-01-2016, 21:44

I created my tune with the Formula A, and then tested it in a variety of cars, even the classics. I do feel some minor oscillation in the Formula A at extremely high speed, usually near the end of a straight when I’m approaching max, but nothing I would call violent. I can hold the wheel loosely and prevent it from happening. In fact, it really only really happens if I let go of the wheel, which is obviously something I wouldn’t do in RL if I was traveling at that speed. :) When I tested the Lotus classics, I first tried them with the default settings. The steering is just slow, even with the defaults. I can't think of anything in my global settings that would affect the steering like that. I made very few and minor changes to the globals. And in-car settings, wouldn't have that affect. But like I said, it happens with the defaults, too. The vibration while braking , probably has to do with the mechanics of the older cars and how braking forces are coming through the spindle. You can try lowering Fx, if you want to get rid of it. In the more modern cars, heavy braking comes across as a slight pull in the wheel. Some people may not like that, but I do, because braking eats up grip, and the feeling reminds me of that when I'm cornering. The Lotus 78 is one of my favorites, and I drive it often. I don't have any problems with my tune. Steering is fine, and I don't get any shaking or vibration when braking. But I did notice that in some of the other classics, if I was braking or left it in a gear too high, the car understeered like crazy, and just wouldn't turn. I had to adjust my driving to brake hard first and come off them before turning in. That seemed to work, as long as I down shifted to the appropriate gear for the speed.

I'm going to see if I can figure out some way of maybe recording it on my phone so I can show what it's doing. I'm not the brightest bulb in the technical world but maybe I can do it.

GrimeyDog

04-01-2016, 23:12

Google wasn't my friend today.

We need input from old coots! :)

Dunno if I'm a Old Koot but i can tell you all about those cars... Ive driven My Fare share of 70's Muscle cars with Big Block Motors and Positraction Rear ends with 411grs... That's a real Wild Ride!!!

The cars were very Floaty ..Center Link Steering was sooo floaty that when Rack and Pinion steering came out its like the wheel had been Re Invented!!!
Try stopping 2+Tons with Asbestos Front disk Brakes and drum Rear Brakes!!! Lotta fun
There were No All season Tires you Needed a winter tire set for the rear and a Summer tire set....All season tire tec was new in the 70's .

Every 1 had big cars with white wall, Dollar Bill or if you waz da man you had Uniroyal Golden seal Tires...those weren't for racing just Styling and profiling...LOL

morpwr

04-01-2016, 23:41

[QUOTE=Haiden;1205604]I understand they don't have the same grip levels, but can you feel the understeer?[/QUOTEI

Ill have to try some again and see. If I remember correctly yes but the window of understeering and just sliding off the track is much smaller. But bias tires are like square rocks compared to radials. lol Yeah seriously if you parked your car for a week they would flatspot until you drove them and got them warm again.

morpwr

04-01-2016, 23:48

Dunno if I'm a Old Koot but i can tell you all about those cars... Ive driven My Fare share of 70's Muscle cars with Big Block Motors and Positraction Rear ends with 411grs... That's a real Wild Ride!!!

The cars were very Floaty ..Center Link Steering was sooo floaty that when Rack and Pinion steering came out its like the wheel had been Re Invented!!!
Try stopping 2+Tons with Asbestos Front disk Brakes and drum Rear Brakes!!! Lotta fun
There were No All season Tires you Needed a winter tire set for the rear and a Summer tire set....All season tire tec was new in the 70's you needed a winter set and a summer set of tires.... every 1 had big cars with white wall, Dollar Bill or if you waz da man you had Uniroyal Golden seal Tires...those weren't for racing just Styling and profiling...LOL

Old coot? At least I'm not the only one that remembers.How about 4 wheel drum no power brakes Grimey? Ever had the pleasure of driving those? Pound the brakes hard a few times and next stop was oh crap no brakes! Until they cooled off again. I actually think sms did a good job modeling some of the older stuff.

morpwr

04-01-2016, 23:52

Dunno if I'm a Old Koot but i can tell you all about those cars... Ive driven My Fare share of 70's Muscle cars with Big Block Motors and Positraction Rear ends with 411grs... That's a real Wild Ride!!!

The cars were very Floaty ..Center Link Steering was sooo floaty that when Rack and Pinion steering came out its like the wheel had been Re Invented!!!
Try stopping 2+Tons with Asbestos Front disk Brakes and drum Rear Brakes!!! Lotta fun
There were No All season Tires you Needed a winter tire set for the rear and a Summer tire set....All season tire tec was new in the 70's you needed a winter set and a summer set of tires.... every 1 had big cars with white wall, Dollar Bill or if you waz da man you had Uniroyal Golden seal Tires...those weren't for racing just Styling and profiling...LOL

How about trying to drive your l60 s in the new York winters?lol

morpwr

05-01-2016, 00:09

Back to the understeer question though. I think if you guys could find some data I know you young guys like that (poirqc)lol youll find the lateral grip is worlds apart even from a modern street radial. That's one of the reasons a lot of muscle cars had really low caster settings the tires couldn't take advantage of more back then so there was no reason to run it higher. Although some did move the upper control arms in the trans am series back then but that was with a race tire.

GrimeyDog

05-01-2016, 00:13

How about trying to drive your l60 s in the new York winters?lol

That would never happen!!! Total wipeout!!! cars were big Heavy metal Machines!!! No air bags, No crumple zone... you mighta thought you were safe behind all that steel until you hit another car...But they were all steel so it was like clash of the Titans!!! somethings gotta give so with No Cops enforcing seat belt laws out the front window you'd Fly!!!

i used to love Fish tailing the Posi Rear end in the Snow!!!

morpwr

05-01-2016, 00:20

That's was the best!!! First snowfall and empty parking lots. Donuts.lol Plus no stupid abs and traction control:D

GrimeyDog

05-01-2016, 01:06

I have a request GrimeyDog.

Could you update the first post with links to highlights of the thread. It's starting to get big it may be handy to search thru that. There's lots of good post. Or there could be some kind of recap?

Thanks,

Great Idea...I will do this on the weekend... i will try during the week if i get a chance....Rough first day back to work after holiday.

morpwr

05-01-2016, 01:07

GrimeyDog

05-01-2016, 02:22

Haiden

05-01-2016, 04:22

Well I just ran the 49c and the 78 and yes you can feel it. Its actually hard to get them to understeer they usually want to swap ends first. But its a different feeling then the newer cars have in the game when they do understeer. Plus the 49c and 78 are completely different that much time made a big difference in tire technology even though it was still bad. Even the 3 tire choices for the 49c act differently. I actually really like the 78 thanks for making me try it. Just needs one more gear. lol

Dude...the 78 is one of my favorites. It's nice. Sounds nice, too. A little bit to handle, you gotta be smooth, but it's a lot of fun. :)

I'm going to see if I can figure out some way of maybe recording it on my phone so I can show what it's doing. I'm not the brightest bulb in the technical world but maybe I can do it.

Before you do, check my tune. I made an update tonight. I had been tuning on Silverstone, because I pretty much consider that my home track. I've been driving it in so many games that I know every inch of it, which makes it perfect for tuning. But it's one of the smoother surfaces, and so sometimes issues get overlooked. I started testing the tune on other tracks, but hadn't got through the list. Tonight I went back to my career and the race was at Zhuhai. I felt the oscillation and was getting a little too much lateral vibration. I started playing with the scales--the usual suspects--but couldn't get rid of it. I hadn't experienced oscillation before, so I started thinking about the major differences between my old tune and new one. The FF/TF balance came to mind, and I had an idea. So just to test the theory, I bumped up FF to 55 (from 45) and the oscillation was gone. At first, I didn't understand, but I have a theory as to why that worked. I've always thought of FF as wheel weight. My theory is that if FF is too low, TF dominates the wheel, because it's lighter and gets manhandled by the tire forces, especially the laterals, causing wobble, oscillation, and excess vibration. Adding a little more FF gave the wheel more weight, and that weight prevents the tire forces from bullying it. Again, it's just my theory, but it makes sense to me. And, that was the only thing I changed to get rid of the oscillation. The FFB line is now pretty quiet on the straights of most tracks.

If you look at the updated tune, you'll see that I also made an adjustment to the RAC, raising it to 0.94 (from 0.92). That has nothing to do with the oscillation, though. Closing the range between RAG and RAC, just gives me a slightly tighter/more stable wheel with a little less play. I think like that feel better, but I'm not set on it. But if you raise FF to 55, you should get rid of the oscillation, regardless of whether you run RAC at 0.92 or 0.94.

Anyway, give that a shot, and let me know if it worked/helped.

morpwr

05-01-2016, 11:58

I don't know how it works with fanatec wheels but I found with gain there is a small window of getting it right. .92 is where I settled but too low and you lose brake and road feel especially uneven road surfaces too high and you exaggerate braking forces too much.

Haiden
I don't usually go for the open wheel cars much but I'm starting to enjoy them. Tried a race with the 49c the other night next time ill lay back and let the ai sort it out. It did give me a good laugh though. Huge crash fest on the first lap.

GrimeyDog

05-01-2016, 12:41

Haiden

05-01-2016, 17:33

I found that with Formula A that Fy 100 and Mz 10 or below Reduces Oscillation... Im Not a Huge open wheel Car Racer though.

I Need to do More testing but i have Not Had any problems with the Lotus or other open wheel Cars... I get bad Oscillation so far only with Formula A.

Im Starting to believe that the oscillation is Either in the Stock Formula A Suspension or its just a Game bug Like GT6... GT6 always has Oscillation with the V2 No Matter what i did i couldnt get rid of it.

Pretty sure I can't run Fy at 100 with my current settings. That'd be way too strong, at least for me. I like medium strength FFB--firm but not too heavy. :) I think you may be right about oscillation being more of an issue with the FA class. Because I wasn't getting it with any other open wheeler. Although, I didn't try the FB. There are a lot of things about the FA that make it hard to handle, though. Personally, I love the FA, and that's part of the reason. It's the closest thing in PCars to the current F1 cars. And I know real F1 cars have a strong amount of force at the wheel. I've often heard it said that it feels like the wheel is constantly trying to tear out of your hands. Like an F1 car, the key to driving the FA is to be smooth with every input. The less you disrupt the car, the easier it will drive. If you're not smooth with your inputs--steering, braking, accel. It's gonna buck like a wild mustang, fighting you the entire lap. I honestly think that's why a lot of people dislike the FA. Games like F1 2015 are great, but they only force you to be smooth on the acceleration and braking. IMO, the wheel is much too tame in the F1 series. But I understand why they do it--different audience.

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 04:10

FFB Lotus Type 51 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J23uB-9qDu8)

FFB Lotus 49c Cosworth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwMREqKcPKQ)

FFB Test Lotus 49 Cosworth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bA2RDdgTxw)
I Think The Lotus 49 Cosworth Has a FFB Bug Check the Graph at the end of the Video... Its still Moving and i'm standing Still... I just have my foot on the brake so i dont roll down the hill but it happens even when No pedals are pressed... I'm Not moving the Steering wheel at all.

FFB Type 98T Renault Turbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smyJn0MgFys)
This car is a Beast with No assist on!!! Gotta be very smooth with the throttle and brakes... I got a 58.xxx i dunno if its a good time or not for that car but i know i can push it down to a Mid 57.xxx or High 56.9xxx maybe even lower if i get used to the car...soo far I've only been test driving it for FFB feel tonight.

All test used same FFB and stock suspension, cars had No Oscillation other than road or bump feel... The FFB is really Good... All Graphs look Good No Clipping and you feel every line you see in the graph in the wheel. NICE!!!

1 thing i like about running High in car masters is i don't have to mess with Arm angle or any other suspension tweeking....i can run all cars stock and they all Drive and corner Nicely... i even had to counter and throttle steer to keep the car from spinning out with no problem a few time... you can see it in the video clips

gotdirt410sprintcar

06-01-2016, 04:32

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 04:46

How high you got mz and master you will get a line movement with mz real high .

same as i always run 100... this is the only car it happens with... check the video.
and this is Not the first time i noticed it... I even shut the PS4 off to make sure everything Loaded right... but same thing happened... it doesn't affect the cars Driving its Only when Standing Still... other than that the car Drives Great with really good FFB and Road Feel... check to see if your getting same thing with you settings.

gotdirt410sprintcar

06-01-2016, 04:50

I seen it your stopped on a bank turn that might cause it. I driven that car no problems drop mz down it will be gold

ProDriver

06-01-2016, 10:39

Push the Button to Reset the in Car FFB Settings... Then Try again... Some times the settings dont set in Right...Re enter the settings and Test... If still you need more Feel increase the Fy setting First then test... Increase the other in car settings as Needed.

If you Have Not Done a Total Reset/Delete of PCars after updates before it may be Needed... Total Reset = Deleting Game, Hard drive and Cloud Game save data and doing a Fresh instal... When they Make Big Changes to Tracks or Tire Grip levels i find this the only way to get Everything back to Normal for every Car and Track.

Maybe was a bug, now goes properly...
I use your setting and they are good for me and for my partners

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 11:40

The Car Drives Fine and feels Very Good... I dont think its the "MZ" becuse Its Happens Only when Stopped I get that wavey line you see in the Video... it happens on Flat Ground also.... Check your Telemetry and see if you get same thing but you have to be stopped.

morpwr

06-01-2016, 12:19

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 12:33

Grimey,
I don't get that at all with the 49c but I can say I it almost looks like an exaggerated version of what I got when playing with mz and fy on that car and some others. I really think that the ffb cant always make sense of the numbers we put in and this is what happens. Only time its happened for me is with one or both settings set to low numbers. Maybe try lowering mz some and raising fy a little and see if it goes away. From the time I spent playing with those there definitely needs to be a balance between them or weird things happen. As much as we have been told you can do the ffb anyway you like I don't really believe that I'm sure sms had a plan on how this should work when setting it up.

Do me a favor... Pull up the Telemetry and Check to See if its Happening while the car is Parked... you dont Notice it while Driving the Car Drives Fine.... thats just a Random thing i Noticed that only Happens with that Car while Standing Still... Its Very easy to over look because the Car and Wheel Fee Fine while Moving.

Those cars are Great Fun to drive with No Assist.... The Renault Turbo and 49c Cosworth are a Beast to handle with No Driving Assist!!! When that Turbo Kicks in on the Renault that thing Flys!!! But it will Spin you Quick if your Not Easy on the Throttle or in Wrong Gear.

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 12:36

Post some Telemetry Videos so i can Take and Compare Notes.

morpwr

06-01-2016, 13:30

Post some Telemetry Videos so i can Take and Compare Notes.

Ill try and get some up tonight.

gotdirt410sprintcar

06-01-2016, 13:51

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 14:27

There is nothing wrong with the car drop your 100 master and your 100 mz you will be fine I tuned this ffb in this car my self. If there was a bug it would of been out there already. I don't see why you need 100 mz anyway makes the wheel feel weird as shit or 100 master you gain nothing but huge forces that's it.

Thats the Beauty of PCars FFB system I Like the Feel of SoP and "MZ" with in Car Masters at 100... while you May Not Like your FFB so strong... but to each their Own.

The CSW V2 can Take it and Much Much More... I did a 30min Race in GT3 Last Night with My FFB Tweek Settings and 75% on Wheel FFB Strength...at the end of the Race wheel temp was only 93°F....and thats Really Good with such Strong FFB... I Love it!!! I use a infrared thermometer to Moniter wheel temp after long Races.

as I've been saying I Have No problem With the way the Car Drives... It Handles and Drives Great and if you Look at the FFB Graph i get No Clipping in the Graph Nor at the wheel.... The Question i am Asking is if any 1 else Noticed that when the Car is Stopped that the Lines in the FFB Graph are Moving or Getting Wavey Lines like in the Video i Posted.

Also I Drive all Cars Stock Suspension So No Changes were Made to the Car to Cause or try to Cure the wavey Line while car is Stopped without any Wheel input... I don't add Down Force,Tweek Arm angle etc on any of the Cars... i find once my FFB Tweek was Right for Me i dont have to Tweek or Modify the Suspension and i can Run Fast Laps with the best Racers... While SMS may have Left the FFB open for all to Tweek i think SMS did a Great Job with the Car Suspension Tuning. JMO No Need to Tune the Cars Suspension, Arm angle etc if the Wheel FFB and in Car FFB is set right.

Edit: i dont think its the "MZ" because that should only affect the car while the Car is Moving, Making Turns etc... I dunno... but other than the Wavey line while Stopped the Car Drives and Handles Great.

gotdirt410sprintcar

06-01-2016, 16:02

I will test that car and see i think fx smoothing is at 50 did you leave that alone ? If you put it at zero put it back to 50 probably where it needs to be came that way and lower mz to 88.

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 16:29

I will test that car and see i think fx smoothing is at 50 did you leave that alone ? If you put it at zero put it back to 50 probably where it needs to be came that way and lower mz to 88.

Aaaah Haaa... i dont use smoothing or damping... That might be it... but whats puzzling Me is Why doe's it Happen Only when the Car is Not Moving??? if you Look at the FFB Graph in the Video all is Normal while Driving with No Oscillation in the Graph or Wheel... Very Puzzling.

Edit: What wheel are you using???

Haiden

06-01-2016, 16:35

as I've been saying I Have No problem With the way the Car Drives... It Handles and Drives Great and if you Look at the FFB Graph i get No Clipping in the Graph Nor at the wheel.... The Question i am Asking is if any 1 else Noticed that when the Car is Stopped that the Lines in the FFB Graph are Moving or Getting Wavey Lines like in the Video i Posted.

Also I Drive all Cars Stock Suspension So No Changes were Made to the Car to Cause or try to Cure the wavey Line while car is Stopped without any Wheel input... I dont even add Aero/Down Force Tweek Arm angle etc on any of the Cars... i find once my FFB Tweek was Right for Me i dont have to Tweek or Modify the Suspension and i can Run Fast Laps with the best Racers... While SMS may have Left the FFB open for all to Tweek i think SMS did a Great Job with the Car Suspension Tuning. JMO No Need to Tune the Cars Suspension, Arm angle etc if the Wheel FFB and in Car FFB is set right.

Okay...you lost me here. What do you mean you don't need to tune the suspension? The default settings can't possibly be ideal for all tracks. Every track is different (consider the surface of Abu Dhabi vs Zhuhai or Watkins Glen). Even aero, which is why some tracks are classified as high downforce tracks and others as low downforce tracks. Now, I'm not saying you have to tune the suspension and aero. But I don't see how you can hang with the best racers in their well-tuned cars (unless by hang you mean simply keeping them in sight. :) ). But if you're saying you're giving them a run for their money, then this game shouldn't be consider a sim. Suspension makes a huge difference. Do a few laps on the Nordschleife with the default suspension, then soften the springs and do a few more. In most cars, that change alone will make a huge difference.

I'm not saying the defaults are bad or that they have to be adjusted to be competitive. But tuning is a huge part of being competitive in racing, assuming the drivers are evenly matched skill-wise. Which is why I find that statement a bit confusing.

poirqc

06-01-2016, 16:37

Aaaah Haaa... i dont use smoothing or damping... That might be it... but whats puzzling Me is Why doe's it Happen Only when the Car is Not Moving??? if you Look at the FFB Graph in the Video all is Normal while Driving with No Oscillation in the Graph or Wheel... Very Puzzling.

Below 10Mph, the 2 sliders above the SG will change the FFB. Coeficient of .75 will lower the FFB by 25%. Saturation of .75 will "cap" the FFB 25% lower than the normal max cealing of 1.

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 16:53

Okay...you lost me here. What do you mean you don't need to tune the suspension? The default settings can't possibly be ideal for all tracks. Every track is different (consider the surface of Abu Dhabi vs Zhuhai or Watkins Glen). Even aero, which is why some tracks are classified as high downforce tracks and others as low downforce tracks. Now, I'm not saying you have to tune the suspension and aero. But I don't see how you can hang with the best racers in their well-tuned cars (unless by hang you mean keep them in sight. :) ). But if you're saying you giving them a run for their money, then this game shouldn't be consider a sim. Suspension makes a huge difference. Do a few laps on the Nordschleife with the default suspension, then soften the springs and do a few more. In most cars, that change alone will make a huge difference.

I'm not saying the defaults are bad or that they have to be adjusted to be competitive. But tuning is a huge part of being competitive in racing. Which is why I find that statement a bit confusing.

Nope No Suspension Tuning...I Havent gotten that Far Yet to get into the suspension tuning... don't know if i Need to or will... For Me its about Knowing the Track and how the Car Stock un-Tuned suspension Handles it...then and only then i may decide to tweek to get faster laps because i will Know exactly what tweeks the Car Needs to get better Lap times...EX Laguna Seca i Run Stock Tune No Assist No Down force added and i can get a 1:23.5xx Easy!!! My Fastest is a 1:23.1xx i could have gotten the 1:22.xxx but i saw how far i was up on My Fastest time and blew it by being distracted...I dont Know how far thats off from he Fastest Gt3 time at Laguna Seca but its within a Reasonable Range for driving a Stock Suspension... To get a Better time 1:21.xxx yes i May Have to Tune suspension but as it is im fine for Now... I get Same and similar Results for Most tracks i Know very well... I like to Know the Track and Car First then Suspension tune.

Edit:I dont Do Save All... I set the in Car FFB for every Track and Car individualy... I Recomend Not to do the save all when settng your in Car FFB... the stock Suspensions are Not the same for Every Track.

ProDriver

06-01-2016, 17:15

Nope No Suspension Tuning...I Havent gotten that Far Yet tonget into the suspension tuning... don't know if i Need to or will... For Me its about Knowing the Track and how the Car Stock un-Tuned suspension Handles it...then and only then i may decide to tweek to get faster laps because i will Know exactly what tweeks the Car Needs to get better Lap times...EX Laguna Seca i Run Stock Tune No Assist No Down force added and i can get a 1:23.5xx Easy!!! My Fastest is a 1:23.1xx i could have gotten the 1:22.xxx but i saw how far i was up on My Fastest time and blew it by being distracted...I dont Know how far thats off from he Fastest Gt3 time at Laguna Seca but its within a Reasonable Range for driving a Stock Suspension... To get a Better time 1:21.xxx yes i May Have to Tune suspension but as it is im fine for Now... I get Same and similar Results for Most tracks i Know very well... I like to Know the Track and Car First then Suspension tune.

I totally agree with you,I don't like to tune the cars, I prefer to run with stock cars always, It's my own preference...

Haiden

06-01-2016, 17:26

Nope No Suspension Tuning...I Havent gotten that Far Yet tonget into the suspension tuning... don't know if i Need to or will... For Me its about Knowing the Track and how the Car Stock un-Tuned suspension Handles it...then and only then i may decide to tweek to get faster laps because i will Know exactly what tweeks the Car Needs to get better Lap times... I like to Know the Track and Car First then Suspension tune.

Yeah... I get that. You don't tune until you know the track well enough to run consistent laps. I think I just misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you don't tune at all, but I guess you were just talking about suspension. Suspension is definitely harder to tune and takes more time than the others aspects. However, that said, once you know the track and what the car is or isn't doing well, at the very least, I think you can easily (and should) make a quick adjustment to the front and rear AR bars. I'd even say spring rate, too if you're on a particularly rough track and getting slip over bumps. Everything else--Camber, Toe, Caster, Rebounds, etc.--can wait until you actually have the need to squeeze a few more tenths out of a lap. Well...actually... I might add Camber to the list, because it's pretty straight forward and can help improve cornering and deal with tire heating issues. But everything else, especially Bumps and Rebounds, I totally understand.

GrimeyDog

06-01-2016, 17:33

I always Learn the Cars on Bumpy Tracks First... My New Favorite Testing Track is Brathurst in the GT3 Ruff!!! That Track and Car Combo is a Beast to get Good Laps on... I been on Brathurst since Sunday im down to a 2:11.xxx i Need to get down to a Low 2:10.xxx with the Stock Tune... By the way i always Hated that Track but in PCars its Pretty Good!!! Great Road and Bump Feel.... Try it with the Gt3 Ruff and tell Me what you think.

Haiden

06-01-2016, 18:29

I always Lear the Cars on Bumpy Tracks First... My New Favorite Testing Trak is Brathurst in the GT3 Ruff!!! That Track and Car Combo is a Beast to get Good Laps on... I been on Brathurst since Sunday im down to a 2:11.xxx i Need to get down to a Low 2:10.xxx with the Stock Tune... By the way i always Hated that Track but in PCars its Pretty Good!!! Great Road and Bump Feel.... Try it with the Gt3 Ruff and tell Me what you think.

I started liking Bathhurst back in the FM5. It's funny, though, because the first time you drive it, it's hard to like. But if you give yourself a little time to settle into it, you really start to enjoy. It's got some tough spots. The walled areas are what make a lot of people shy away from it. But once you learn them and start taking them well, it's very rewarding. I usually drive open wheel on it. But the last racing group I was in had a GT3 series with Bathurst on the schedule. I practiced on it for about week, but then something came up and I couldn't make the actual race. Compared to open wheelers like the Formula C, It's much harder in the GT3 class, because you have to deal with the weight transfer in those tricky areas.

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 01:04

Below 10Mph, the 2 sliders above the SG will change the FFB. Coeficient of .75 will lower the FFB by 25%. Saturation of .75 will "cap" the FFB 25% lower than the normal max cealing of 1.

All the math is a head ache...LOL... i done with doing math to tweek.. The math only works when there the variables are Known, There are too many unknown variables with PCars FFB ... No one has the exact math formula if they did the FFB would have been done long time ago because 2+2 always =4.. I'm tweeking strictly by feel for the best feel.

poirqc

07-01-2016, 01:39

All the math is a head ache...LOL... i done with doing math to tweek.. The math only works when there the variables are Known, There are too many unknown variables with PCars FFB ... No one has the exact math formula if they did the FFB would have been done long time ago because 2+2 always =4.. I'm tweeking strictly by feel for the best feel.

Low Speed Spring Coeficiency and Saturation. Those were the settings i was taking about.

Let me give you another figure then. Let's say you lower Low Speed Spring Coeficiency by 3 chicken and Low Speed Spring Saturation by 1 ski pole, it should give you a feeling of a deflated basket ball.

Is this better? :)

The point is, you where talking about an issue while the car being stopped, and those 2 sliders affect that. You're old enough to tune them the way you like! :D

From the 3.0 Patch notes:

Controls & FFB
New – implemented the ability via menu sliders for the user to manually tweak the menu spring strength, stationary / low speed spring strength, and overall steering gain:
Menu Spring – the strength of the wheel centering spring in the front end and in-game pause menu.
Low Speed Spring Coefficient & Saturation – the weight of the steering at slow speeds (<10mph) and when the car is stationary. The saturation is the maximum force for the spring and the coefficient is how quickly the spring takes effect. To avoid "cogging / notching" effects when stationary its best to leave the spring coefficient high and lower the saturation.
Steering Gain – the gain (multiplier) applied to all steering effects (steering force, jolts, kerb rumble etc) after they have been mixed. For a clean more detailed experience set at 1.0 or below, for stronger feedback at the expense of clipping set higher (maximum value 5).

New – the Force Feedback Calibration screen now features a multiple force feedback profile selection system whereby the user can select a base FFB style that suits personal preference, and then tweak it further as desired. You can now switch between current FFB settings (Default) and pre-1.4 (classic) by using the FFB Calibration presets. These presets are available under Options > Controls > Calibrate Force Feedback. The presets are set on top of this page and the new sliders to control the spring/steering effect are at the bottom. Whenever you change these values it becomes a custom preset. You can switch back to either Default or Classic by selecting them at the top of this page.

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 02:58

Low Speed Spring Coeficiency and Saturation. Those were the settings i was taking about.

Let me give you another figure then. Let's say you lower Low Speed Spring Coeficiency by 3 chicken and Low Speed Spring Saturation by 1 ski pole, it should give you a feeling of a deflated basket ball.

Is this better? :)

The point is, you where talking about an issue while the car being stopped, and those 2 sliders affect that. You're old enough to tune them the way you like! :D

From the 3.0 Patch notes:

Its only that 1 Car that's doing that so I'm just going to leave it as it is because the car drives fine it only happens when the car is stopped and i don't plan on making too many stops in the middle of a race... i get the point though...LOL

i just wanted to know if any 1 else was Noticed or was experiencing that with that Car.

gotdirt410sprintcar

07-01-2016, 03:15

T500

gotdirt410sprintcar

07-01-2016, 03:24

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 12:08

I raced with him last weekend some I don't know about three races. I was tuning the z4 last race I was faster I think I was just pushing to hard. I only dropped ride height, some springs gears I was faster though just saying grimey. hehe we can have another go though

Blazing Fast even!!! LOL.. Vrooom Vrooom!!! Next time we Race i can i mean you can give me few Tips on the Fast Lines through Tracks... LOL... Some of the People i race with are Really Fast!!! you Gotta Push Hard then Push Even Harder to Keep up!!! ... Its all about Corner Speed... If i can Get as Little as .100 through 5 coners im 1/2 sec ahead in 5 corners multiply that by a 10 lap Race and thats a Huge gap by the end of the Race...I just try to take a Little at a time and Not over Drive...10 laps Most are gonna make 1 mistake so i try to be patient....its that 2nd mistake that kills your Race.

The more i get away from Tweeking the more i Realize what a Great Sim Racing Game PCars Relly is... I'm No longer Racing tryng to find Flaws or ways to Tweek FFB... I find Myself Very tuned into Road and Car Feel thinking Yeah I Can Push Harder through this curve and Knowing which curves to back off in... Because im Not Looking to get more and more Feel i Really Notice how detailed the FFB Really is. PCars is by far the best Sim Racing Game on Consol to date!!! I also play Assetto Corsa and Have played IRacing also but IMo i think PCars has better Physics....Maybe i didn't have my wheel set up right on them??? i dunno but PCars is the best so far.

I've been using this same Tweek since update 3.0 once i Readjusted the Global settings in septtember the Last few Months i have been at the point that every thing i Re-Tweek only makes the Tweek worse Not better... Its all about Re-Learing the Tracks right Now Ex: Brathurst, Laguna Seca, Silverstone the Lay out is the same but the Fast Line through the Corners are different from Assetto Corsa, Gt6, Forza Etc so i have to un-Learn Bad Habbits from other Track Models.

RomKnight

07-01-2016, 12:30

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 12:46

depends on the track...

With the Z4 with the underpowered engine it is somehow faster at tracks like Spa and Le Mans.

Too much Aero efficiency on that car or too much engine for specs?

If you drive the McLaren MP4-12C you won't have a chance.

I Dunno about this... I Love the GT3 Ruf... Its a Killer in the Corners!!! i Sacifice a Few MPH on top end but even with a Stock tune and just push the Last Gear to Max i get it to 176 on Lemans Straight 180 if im drafting...Then Go for the Kill in the Curves... Brathurst is a Problem Track for the Gt3 Ruf but im workin on it...But i dont know that track to well... Im still Learning it.

Fight-Test

07-01-2016, 14:28

Keep in mid the gt3 gear boxes are not homogalated for lemans and not a track they will run balanced. The audi is 30 km slower in straight than merc. Gt3's don't run at lemans. Paul Richard is the longest track they run and what they are homogalated for.

Haiden

07-01-2016, 15:15

Its all about Re-Learing the Tracks right Now Ex: Brathurst, Laguna Seca, Silverstone the Lay out is the same but the Fast Line through the Corners are different from Assetto Corsa, Gt6, Forza Etc so i have to un-Learn Bad Habbits from other Track Models.

I know Silverstone like the back of my hand, especially in PCars. I was playing for Forza last night and noticed how much different that track felt. I don't know if it's because of the FoV (Forza's cockpit view isn't really that good, unless your setup just happens to put your monitor at the right distance for that fixed FoV) or if the track layout is actually that much different.

gotdirt410sprintcar

07-01-2016, 15:34

I raced with snail for like two years on gt6 real fast drivers helps get you faster for sure.

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 16:01

I know Silverstone like the back of my hand, especially in PCars. I was playing for Forza last night and noticed how much different that track felt. I don't know if it's because of the FoV (Forza's cockpit view isn't really that good, unless your setup just happens to put your monitor at the right distance for that fixed FoV) or if the track layout is actually that much different.

There are a Few Factors with the Same tacks from Game to Game... While the Track Layout is the same From Version to Version EX: Brathurst/ Silverstone... FOV, Corner angles/Steepness, Track Width and Most importantly Road Bumps seem to be Different... I Noticed in PCars a Few Road Bumps/Dips in the Road, Curbs that will cause your Front wheels to Leave the Ground or Lose Traction and Skip around if you try to take the Same Cornering Line that your used to from other Game Versions.... The Differences will become Less and Less Now that the Tracks are being Laser Scaned... But then there will still be the Matter of Game Physics 1 sim you may Not Need to Hit the Brakes in a Certain Corner but the Next Sim you try that and End up Off Roading.

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 16:07

I raced with snail for like two years on gt6 real fast drivers helps get you faster for sure.

Next Time we Meet on the Track im Gonna Release the Dog!!! Vroom Vrooom im Not gonna Hold Back... Vrooom!!! LOL

Haiden

07-01-2016, 17:13

There are a Few Factors with the Same tacks from Game to Game... While the Track Layout is the same From Version to Version EX: Brathurst/ Silverstone... FOV, Corner angles/Steepness, Track Width and Most importantly Road Bumps seem to be Different... I Noticed in PCars a Few Road Bumps/Dips in the Road, Curbs that will cause your Front wheels to Leave the Ground or Lose Traction and Skip around if you try to take the Same Cornering Line that your used to from other Game Versions.... The Differences will become Less and Less Now that the Tracks are being Laser Scaned... But then there will still be the Matter of Game Physics 1 sim you may Not Need to Hit the Brakes in a Certain Corner but the Next Sim you try that and End up Off Roading.

The Nordschleife is a great example. In PCars, at the start of the last long right corner before the long straight on the back end, there's a dip/undulation that will cause your rear to slip if you trail brake into the corner. I used to run the Nordschleife all the time in FM5, and I don't recall that dip being there. Took some getting used to in PCars. :) Strangely enough, in FM5, coming out of the left-hander just before that corner, there was decline that stopped you from getting back on the power too quickly/hard coming out of the corner. In PCars that decline is there, but it's not nearly the traction hazard it is in FM5.

GrimeyDog

07-01-2016, 21:15

The Nordschleife is a great example. In PCars, at the start of the last long right corner before the long straight on the back end, there's a dip/undulation that will cause your rear to slip if you trail brake into the corner. I used to run the Nordschleife all the time in FM5, and I don't recall that dip being there. Took some getting used to in PCars. :) Strangely enough, in FM5, coming out of the left-hander just before that corner, there was decline that stopped you from getting back on the power too quickly/hard coming out of the corner. In PCars that decline is there, but it's not nearly the traction hazard it is in FM5.

Exactly that's where it comes down to the Difference in game the physics models.

Jezza819

08-01-2016, 17:40

I started liking Bathhurst back in the FM5. It's funny, though, because the first time you drive it, it's hard to like. But if you give yourself a little time to settle into it, you really start to enjoy. It's got some tough spots. The walled areas are what make a lot of people shy away from it. But once you learn them and start taking them well, it's very rewarding. I usually drive open wheel on it. But the last racing group I was in had a GT3 series with Bathurst on the schedule. I practiced on it for about week, but then something came up and I couldn't make the actual race. Compared to open wheelers like the Formula C, It's much harder in the GT3 class, because you have to deal with the weight transfer in those tricky areas.

You have to learn where the car bites at going over the top of the mountain. What I mean by that is the undulations will cause the car's front tires to lose contact with the track surface and then it will bite again when it regains traction. You want the tires pointed in the right direction when that bite happens to allow you to stay off the walls.

I love Bathurst in PCars but I've never raced open wheelers there. I've probably only ran a couple of prototype races. Most of the time it's some sort of GT or Touring car.

Rs60

08-01-2016, 23:38

GrimeyDog

09-01-2016, 07:30

morpwr

09-01-2016, 15:51

Well one thing I know for sure after spending 5 hours last night getting my sons tx working on xbone is 100 percent ffb absolutely doesn't work on either console. You cannot get the wheel to feel right set that high. 75 seems to be the sweet spot for the thrustmaster wheels on either platform. The one thing I found strange is there definitely are differences on what works between the two platforms and the thrustmaster wheels. Not huge differences but still things that cause odd problems like exaggerated wheel weight when turning even a little caused by relative adjust gain being too high on xbone but on ps4 it can be set much higher without negative effects. I can say after trying both you can get the same feeling from both platforms but they do need to be tweaked differently than the pc. 100 ffb doesn't work for either platform. You loose all the subtle stuff trying to use 100 in game because you have to turn everything else down to get a reasonable wheel weight.

Haiden

09-01-2016, 17:14

If the car and track are modeled correctly, when the settings are moved away from 100, it seems to me that you are really changing the configuration of the car. So I disagree with radically changing these - there may a few cars that have need of some tweaks because of modeling issues, but I think overall changes affecting the car's behavior should be made to the suspension settings, not the ffb inputs, if you want to experience the differences in the various cars on offer.

BTW really like haiden's globals but driving with the defaults + sop differential suits me just fine.

Thanks everybody!

I do agree that moving the scales from 100 changes the mechanical feel of the car. But I think that's fine if you apply the same FFB tune to all cars. Then you've just change it across the board and can still feel the individual nuances of each car.

Also, glad you like them. The SoP settings work with the globals, whether or not you use them is just a matter of preference.

You have to learn where the car bites at going over the top of the mountain.

Exactly. I think that's what makes the track fun, and rewarding when you get it right. Once you learn those spots, a good lap becomes all about consistency.

delahosh

09-01-2016, 17:22

Hi Grimey, i tried your csw-settings with my T500 and changed ffb=24 - feels awesome - THX!
I`v linked yor thread and pdf in a german forum https://www.pcars-forum.de/thema/2377-faq-t500rs-force-feedback-kalibrierung-setups/?postID=72109#post72109
..hopefully it´s ok !?

Greetings from Essen/Germany!

GrimeyDog

09-01-2016, 19:34

Hi Grimey, i tried your csw-settings with my T500 and changed ffb33 and Mz90 - feels awesome - THX!
I`v linked yor thread and pdf in a german forum https://www.pcars-forum.de/thema/2377-faq-t500rs-force-feedback-kalibrierung-setups/?postID=72109#post72109
..hopefully it´s ok !?

Greetings from Essen/Germany!

Yes that is fine...Happy you like it... Thanx... Keep Spreading the word.
Great Example that's Exactly How the Tweek works, it just took a few minor Changes to fine tune it for your wheel and FFB taste... This is how the FFB Tweek should be used.

tennenbaum

09-01-2016, 21:55

I have a request GrimeyDog.

Could you update the first post with links to highlights of the thread. It's starting to get big it may be handy to search thru that. There's lots of good post. Or there could be some kind of recap?

Thanks,

Edit - I did some tests this morning. RuF CTR @ Oulton Park, Foster:

With everything disabled, except TF 40, WPS 0,1, SG 1:

FxyzMz 1 / Master Scale 0,26
FxyzMz 0,5 / Master Scale 0,52
FxyzMz 0,26 / Master Scale 1
FxyzMz 0,14 / Master Scale 1,86

Franckly, i coudln't really tell any difference between those CarFFB. Keep in mind this wasn't a good driving setup, it was just to test the CarFFB. There was a big TDC deadzone. But as soon as i was out of it, the FFB was pretty clear. For the front wheel, all parameter have a nice number granulatiry. They're easy to fine tune.

That changed a bit with SoP. As soon as i added some, it quickly drowned that front wheels.

I think the tricky part is finding the right balance between the front and rear wheels.

We have 3 use case:

Acceleration
Keeping a steady pace(coasting?)
Braking

Under Acceleration, the load is on the rear tires. With to much SoP, the small movement from the front wheels will get drowned.

Under Coasting, understeering could be felt if there's not too much SoP. If there's no enough SoP, it may be harder to catch slides.

Under braking, front wheel movement will be felt greatly. Without SoP, it may be harder to catch the tail stepping out.

For SoP it seems the SoPScale got the same granularity of the SpindleMaster Scale. However, the SoPLat & SoPDif aren't as precise. So it may be better to move the SoPScale to fine tune instead of SoPLat & SoPDif like we would for FxyzMz.

Thoughts?

yes,

"
With everything disabled, except TF 40, WPS 0,1, SG 1:
FxyzMz 1 / Master Scale 0,26
FxyzMz 0,5 / Master Scale 0,52
FxyzMz 0,26 / Master Scale 1
FxyzMz 0,14 / Master Scale 1,86

"

they behave exactly like linear multipliers. At least when you use one force (e.g. Fy) turning the other 3 to zero. Forces add with each of the Fxyz vectors due to vector sum like that: 2 vectors each e.g. 1.00 adds up to 1,42. Three vectors (xyz) each 1.00 adds up to 1,71. If you are aware of how directional vectors sum up (Fsumxy = SQR(x^2 + y^2) - math:Pytagoras, you will find that even than the summed up forces from xyz (Mz is a torgue, it ads up separately) go linear with the master spindle scale. When you turn off RAG/RAC and SCHI/SCFO you will find that the multipliers "steering gain" also goes linear.

Beside, i tried a lot of different setting to figure out how to mix in Fx (braking and accelarating(only with FWD)), but i couldn't figure it out yet how to achieve a good result that doesn't interfere strangely with the other forces. Of course you can crank up Fx, but under braking you get an Fz change as well (more load to the front wheels), and then - remember - since FZ works inverse (negativ, meaning it turns the wheel into the other direction than Fx (and also Mz and Fy) Fx and Fz cannibalize each other.

Who got a solution?

tennenbaum

09-01-2016, 22:40

Great thread with a lot of great insights into the ffb engine. tannebaum's discussion on the math took awhile to sink in but one key point struck me. It was that the fxyz & sop sliders were a percentage of the values coming into the ffb engine, which drives the wheel. These inputs come from the simulation of the car's configuration - weight, stiffness, suspensions settings, tires - interacting with the track surface based on driver inputs.

If the car and track are modeled correctly, when the settings are moved away from 100, it seems to me that you are really changing the configuration of the car. So I disagree with radically changing these - there may a few cars that have need of some tweaks because of modeling issues, but I think overall changes affecting the car's behavior should be made to the suspension settings, not the ffb inputs, if you want to experience the differences in the various cars on offer.

BTW really like haiden's globals but driving with the defaults + sop differential suits me just fine.

Thanks everybody!

Exactly! Fxyzm 100/100/100/100 are the default values that are fed to the FFB computation. When you change these values you actually "mix" the forces to your taste. In a way that you find the FFB responsive, with out clipping, and somehow logical as you would expect from a real car.

Now, when you change these values, you only change what's fed to the FFB system. But it does NOT change the real forces at the contact patch of the tire. By changing the FFB values you only choose how you wann feel these forces at your steering wheel.

You got the feeling that by changing the FFB values Fxyzm (away from 100) the car's true driving physics changed?
No, it didn't. The physics of the tire and the suspension of the car didn't change at all.

Though your feelings were true anyway. Why?

By changing the FFB Fxyzm values YOUR feedback forces (done by your hands and arms steering) changed. So due to a different feedback pattern you're doing now, of course you steering is different then.

It's a quite abstract thing: the cars feedback trough the FFB system is in a permanent actio-reactio-non-stable-balance-finding state with your steering, which is -- the feedback to the FFB feedback.

The car's changing behavior, thus with its changing creation of Fxyzm forces at tire patch its FFB, and your steering (as a result to what you feel via FFB) is an ongoing regulation circle-process with permanently changing parameters.

NB: As much as it's true that you don't change the car's mechanical parts and tunes when changing FFB values, there might be at least one flaw in the game, that contradicts the logic: You can change the spindle arm angle (called arm angle) in the FFB system. Google "Ackerman angle" and you will see it definitely changes the steering geometry, resulting in different stiffness of the steering wheel during cornering as well as definitely changing traction behavior. Therefore IMO the parameter "arm angle" belongs to tuning parts - not to the adjustable FFB values. I guess it's a left over from early beginning of programming.

tennenbaum

09-01-2016, 23:13

GrimeyDog

10-01-2016, 00:24

Beside, i tried a lot of different setting to figure out how to mix in Fx (braking and accelarating(only with FWD)), but i couldn't figure it out yet how to achieve a good result that doesn't interfere strangely with the other forces. Of course you can crank up Fx, but under braking you get an Fz change as well (more load to the front wheels), and then - remember - since FZ works inverse (negativ, meaning it turns the wheel into the other direction than Fx (and also Mz and Fy) Fx and Fz cannibalize each other.

Who got a solution?

Since there is No Mathematical Blue Print Given by SMS for FFB tuning there is No way to Validate any Mathematical Formula Speculation/Theory as True...

Given the Nature of Console Gaming or Gaming in General being Plug and Play i find No Reason to Have to do indepth Mathematical Caculations to adjust the Car Physics that have allready been pre Programmed into the Game at Pre set Values... Once you Have your Globals Set Right...Just use the Sliders to + or - the FFB Forces you want to Feel Most in your wheel.

Solution: Just Tweek by Feel and if it Feels Good it is Good.

Edit: The Picture does do a GREAT Job at explaining what each of the fy,fx, SoP settings adjust though.

tennenbaum

10-01-2016, 00:29

Hi tennenbaum, I was using your exact settings (global and per-car) with the Ruf GT3 on Watkins Glenn, T300 & PS4. The feeling was very light, but I can feel brakes and some understeer, and there was a big big non natural snake effect on straights.

I'm using morpwr's global settings as reference, with JS's Classic without Sop, so I'm not coming from a "strong" or "heavy" feeling.

Hi spacepadrille,

You gave me a very helpful hint.

I have to adjust my settings in a next post. My low Fxyzm and low spindle master scale feeds the RAG module at a level not high enough. Not "choking" but triggering the RAG different than more saturated forces. Which results in a "weak" feeling due to not enough compression of the lower forces. Plus a low absolute FFB strength value, that made the result even weaker. (I was used to it, but it doesn't seem to make sense for most of us here.)

During my revision i found it interesting to see that in the forum two different approaches exist in friendly co-existence. Though, depending on which one you stumble across, you may get a headache, since both ways of how to adjust your FFB settings seem to contradict each other:

HIGH in-car spindle master scale VS. LOW in car spindle master scale.

You could also say: "Overdriving" Fxyzm VS. "Choking" Fxyzm.

EDIT: I'm not sure anymore if it really is "overdriving". Possibly there is some internal headroom that allows to computate forces higher than 1.00 without clipping. See a later post regarding this topic.

One stands for GrimeyDog's "philosophy" of high in-car masters (therefore spindle master scale around 100). I guess morpwr's settings are similar. (I couldn't find them.)

The other approach is represented by settings similar to Bmanic's approach, who goes with lower Fxyzm and low spindle master scale values (12-16).

Both ways result in a granular and well-defined wheel response, however GrimeyDog's "style" does it with a "heavier" wheel, while Bmanic keeps the wheel on a lighter side. With higher in-car masters you get a tighter feeling on straights, which is great. With lower in car master scale values you get a lighter wheel on straights ("boat feeling" ;-), but IMO a more subtle feeling while cornering. It's a very personal thing what you prefer, and IMO it depends a lot of what you're used to.

EDIT: Possibly there is some internal headroom that allows to computate forces higher than 1.00 without clipping. See a later post regarding this topic. The following text (in blue) might be not valid to some extend!

It may stir some controversial discussion when i say, when you go with high in-car spindle master scale (as e.g. 100) with Fxyzm each among 30 - 100, you definitely "overdrive" the 0.00 - 1.00 computation corridor to some degree, thus running the vectorized-summed-up signal into clipping.

That clipping doesn't get so obvious, because most people seem to use RAC (relative Adjust Clamp) close to a range of 0,96. So the clipping gets kind of softened: Instead of the graph hitting obviously hard top and bottom of the yellow graph box, the graph gets shaped in a way that you don't see anymore that the signal was actually clipping before.

And - third - the "detail-amplifing" differential first degree equation of RAG with its relatively high frequency interruptions coming mainly from Fz (and SoP-Diff, if used) "breaks" the clipping line (resulting from Fy and Fz) so massively that you don't see the original clipping line any more.

As a result thereof your wheel is basically closer to a stage of permanent saturation than you might be aware of, but interrupted by higher frequency rumblings (mainly coming from Fz and differential effects coming from RAG). That's what makes the wheel feel tight and heavy, though still with lots of details going on. Typically it leads to a graph that goes wonderfully wild across the entire spectrum using the entire bandwidth with lots of "spikes" on a greatly varying "snake".

Again, while the graph looks nicely "differential" the undergoing main weight of the wheel results from Fy and Fm(=Mz) saturation. It's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, it leads to a powerful and sensitive feedback feeling.

However you can do it the other way round as well by keeping the forces away from clipping: You lift only the lower signals with SCHI. While it's also a sensitive and granular differentiated force-feedback, it feels subjectively quite different (possibly even strange) compared to the other method. BTW. I found, that no matter if you come from the high in-car master scale value side or if you approach from low in-car master scale values the telemetry FFB graph look more or less the same - even if the steering feels different.

When you choose high in car masters you automatically lift all the weak forces: it's the natural way how you "compress" less strong signals (like in an audio compressor) to a higher level, thus in a smaller dynamic range. It's the same as with an audio compressor/limiter: you increase the gain (lift up all the signals), then you cut the then happening peaks that go over the top (1.00) - and you're fine. You get a tight steering with nice weight even while you pressed a lot of the higher forces in soft-clipping. Meaning, input signals between e.g. 60-100 got squeezed into an output of 95-100. Which is practically clipping. Well, this way you go already pretty "heavy loaded" into the RAG. In the RAG module a complex thing happens: it kind of breaks apart the saturation/clipping in a way that you get this specific GrimeyDog steering characteristics, without the feeling of having a "saturated" wheel.

If you do it the other way round - with lower in-car masters - you actually have to compress the signals as well to get enough differentiated FFB feeling. Though, you do it by compression at a later stage of the signal-chain. Doing it this way you can lift the weak forces without driving the stronger ones necessarily into the clipping. Which gives you a more differentiated response in the range of the strong forces. However, now that you feed the RAG with a not saturated range of signals the RAG operates and outputs quite different to the other method.

The entire FFB system might eventually be made more transparent, when a description of how the RAG really works will be available, and when the understanding has spread, that each module of the chain of siganls can only "digest" a signal strength that is between 0.00 and1.00. (I thought different before, but in the meantime i'm quite sure, there is no extra computation headroom for values over 1.00)

tennenbaum

10-01-2016, 01:58

Since there is No Mathematical Blue Print Given by SMS for FFB tuning there is No way to Validate any Mathematical Formula Speculation/Theory as True...

Given the Nature of Console Gaming or Gaming in General being Plug and Play i find No Reason to Have to do indepth Mathematical Caculations to adjust the Car Physics that have allready been pre Programmed into the Game at Pre set Values... Once you Have your Globals Set Right...Just use the Sliders to + or - the FFB Forces you want to Feel Most in your wheel.

Solution: Just Tweek by Feel and if it Feels Good it is Good.

Edit: The Picture does do a GREAT Job at explaining what each of the fy,fx, SoP settings adjust though.

Truth well told! ;-)

GrimeyDog

10-01-2016, 02:01

Just be aware that when you choose high in car masters you automatically lift all the weak forces: it's the natural way how you "compress" less strong signals (like in an audio compressor) to a higher level, thus in a smaller dynamic range. It's the same as with an audio compressor/limiter: you increase the gain (lift up all the signals), then you cut the then happening peaks that go over the top (1.00) - and you're fine. You get a tight steering with nice weight even while you pressed a lot of the higher forces in soft-clipping. Meaning, input signals between e.g. 60-100 got squeezed into an output of 95-100. Which is practically clipping. Well, this way you go already pretty "heavy loaded" into the RAG. In the RAG module a complex thing happens: it kind of breaks apart the saturation/clipping in a way that you get this specific GrimeyDog steering characteristics, without the feeling of having a "saturated" wheel..

It is important to Keep in Mind that using 100 In Car Masters is NOT Manditory when using My Tweek... The In Car Masters can be set to a level that you are Most comfortable with the FFB power Level... The In Car Fy, Fx, SoP can be adjusted to what you like to Feel Most... Even Some Have used the Tweek Settings and Set SoP to 0.00 because they do Not Like the Feel of SoP. there are Many ways to adjust the Tweek without Complicated Mathematical Formulas... Which IMO are Not Needed as i prefer Tweeking By Feel for Best Feel..

IMO the Most important part of any Tweek is to First....

1) Set the Game Master FFB set according to your wheel.

2) Balance your Global Settings according to how you are going to set your in Car Masters and Fy,Fx, SoP etc settings.

3) Set in Car setting by Feel for Best Feel.

4) Readjust the Game Master FFB for Final Desired at the Wheel FFB.

5) Play PCars and Enjoy

GrimeyDog

10-01-2016, 03:16

Truth well told! ;-)

Its Just My Method.... the only thing that is Certain with PCars FFB is there is No Right there is No Wrong.

I Love to Read and Explore all the different FFB tuning Methods but it always comes down to what FFB feels best at the Wheel for Me...

The Beauty of PCars is that we Can Each Create our Own Personal FFB Feel...My tweek is only a Blue Print of How i like My FFB it is Very Flexible and can be Adjusted to a wide Range of FFB Taste without Fear of Clipping....

FFB is Very subjective to many Variables Wheel used, Size of Rim on Wheel being used, FFB is even subject to Physical Condition of a person...Ex: a person with fitter upper body Strength can deal with or Need a Heavier/Stronger wheel.... In My Case if the Wheel Weight and FFB is Not Strong enough i find Myself constantly over steering.

The Heavy FFB can Easily be Reduced simply by Reducing the in Car Masters without Losing Dynamic FFB Range or Clipping.... The List of Variables that determine what each person would like in the FFB can be Limitless... My Method of Tweek is Very easy to adapt per wheel or per individual FFB taste.

poirqc

10-01-2016, 04:09

It is important to Keep in Mind that using 100 In Car Masters is NOT Manditory when using My Tweek... The In Car Masters can be set to a level that you are Most comfortable with the FFB power Level... The In Car Fy, Fx, SoP can be adjusted to what you like to Feel Most... Even Some Have used the Tweek Settings and Set SoP to 0.00 because they do Not Like the Feel of SoP. there are Many ways to adjust the Tweek without Complicated Mathematical Formulas... Which IMO are Not Needed as i prefer Tweeking By Feel for Best Feel..

IMO the Most important part of any Tweek is to First....

1) Set the Game Master FFB set according to your wheel.

2) Balance your Global Settings according to how you are going to set your in Car Masters and Fy,Fx, SoP etc settings.

3) Set in Car setting by Feel for Best Feel.

4) Readjust the Game Master FFB for Final Desired at the Wheel FFB.

5) Play PCars and Enjoy

A cheat sheat like that would be handy to add to the general "official" ffb guide. Something that would be accessible for new player. The first steps that take only minutes to set. Some kind of in-between the Default template and a more tuned FFB. When someone wants to dig deeper there's always the official guide, this thread, Jack's settings, the baseline thread, etc...

At the end of the day, i think most people contributing in FFB threads already have a good enough FFB. But it's always fun to talk about the subject. It render thing more accesible for everybody in the end!

@tennenbaum: You cheat man! I almost failed college because i was lousy at maths! How can i have a discussion with you when post elaborated stuff like that!(Great posts btw :D )

@GrimeyDog: You'll always be right on that front, the fine tuning can only be approved by feel. However, it's usefull to understand in witch direction you're going when fine tuning. It saves a little time.

I think there's some common ground for everybody, regardless of the platform and the FFB tuning approach taken:
CarFFB Balance: This part can probably be adapted to any wheel, to an extent.
Optimal wheel operating range: This won't fit right away for every Car FFB balance. Some will adapt the globals to render the Car FFB accordingly.

Cheers!

poirqc

10-01-2016, 06:27

The entire FFB system might eventually be made more transparent, when a description of how the RAG really works will be available, and when the understanding has spread, that each module of the chain of siganls can only "digest" a signal strength that is between 0.00 and1.00. (I thought different before, but in the meantime i'm quite sure, there is no extra computation headroom for values over 1.00)

I would think otherwise. Or at least, half way otherwise. :)

I think that up to the Soft Cliping module, there's no maximum sum of forces for linear modules(Stuff before Soft Clipping, RAs are an exception. RAG = gain(>1<) only, RAB = time constant, RAC = hole in my theory). After that, tools are normalised between 0 and 1.

The easiest way to see it with a given sum of forces that is clipped without SC will not be when enough SC is applied. From my understanding, SC only compress, it doesn't interpolate. If values above 1 would be clipped, when applying SC, the flat line would only be lower, but it would be still flat. It's not the case right now. When the FFB signal goes above 1 is still there to be processed by Soft Clipping.

Btw, big props to everyone in this thread! Nobody's trowing fruits at each others and the tone of discussions is still awesome after a whole lot of posts. It's refreshing to see something like this!

Keep it up guys! :D

delahosh

10-01-2016, 09:27

@GrimeyDog

1 Question, what about: Body Scale, Body LS, Body Stiffness, Body Damping... default or 0.00 ??

Haiden

10-01-2016, 15:30

@GrimeyDog: You'll always be right on that front, the fine tuning can only be approved by feel. However, it's usefull to understand in witch direction you're going when fine tuning. It saves a little time.

Definitely. In the end, feel is all that matters, getting it right for you. But knowing what the scales do, does save time. I've gotten to the point where I can just look at someone's setting/suggestions and tell whether or not they're worth exploring and testing. It's not about them being wrong or right, just that I know they don't suit my personal preference and tastes when it comes to feel. But, for the most part, I it's often more a particular facet of someone else's tune that I find myself wanting to test/try, like their Relative Adjust settings or the Scoop, Per Wheel Movement, or TF/FF balance. If you're fairly happy with your current FFB, I think cherry-picking other tunes is a great way to fine tune that setup. Because if you're happy with your current feel, why completely toss it out and start from scratch?

GrimeyDog

10-01-2016, 16:28

@GrimeyDog

1 Question, what about: Body Scale, Body LS, Body Stiffness, Body Damping... default or 0.00 ??

Yes that is Correct 0.00 i find that those settings dont provide any useful FFB Feel... Maybe they can be used with a Motion Simulator??? But they dont provide any Good FFB Effect at the Wheel that i Have Noticed.

GrimeyDog

10-01-2016, 16:42

Definitely. In the end, feel is all that matters, getting it right for you. But knowing what the scales do, does save time. I've gotten to the point where I can just look at someone's setting/suggestions and tell whether or not they're worth exploring and testing. It's not about them being wrong or right, just that I know they don't suit my personal preference and tastes when it comes to feel. But, for the most part, I it's often more a particular facet of someone else's tune that I find myself wanting to test/try, like their Relative Adjust settings or the Scoop, Per Wheel Movement, or TF/FF balance. If you're fairly happy with your current FFB, I think cherry-picking other tunes is a great way to fine tune that setup. Because if you're happy with your current feel, why completely toss it out and start from scratch?

I Agree 100% with the Entire Post!!! I too just Cherry Pick at Different set ups to see if i can find a Missing Link to FFB Perfection.

As Poirqc said its Great to See soo Many Ideas in 1 thread with No Nit picking or Cat Fighting...Exactly why i started the Thread a Place where we Can All Talk FFB from our own point of View in Search of the Final FFB solution. I Agree Great Job to Every one that Participates and Even to those that Just Read Through and Dont Post...the point is No post is better than a Negative post... But All Feel Free to express your FFB ideas in a Community Friendly Way.

I Haven't Had a Chance to update the OP yet i've been.posting from my Phone... But i will update soon as i Can.

Again Thank you all For Making this a Great post!!! Each person Has Contributed Great Ideas.

Haiden

10-01-2016, 17:41

I'm going update my tune settings later today. After running with them for the past week, I decided to bring the Master Scale down a bit, and did a little rebalancing of the spindle scales. I also put a little SoP Diff back into the mix. But I'm gonna wait a while, before reevaluating the SoP Lat. I want to get really used to the current feel first, so I can better judge the effect of SoP Lat.

I also realized that my globals work pretty well with the default in-car settings (if you turn the Wheel FF back to 100). Not quite as much detail as my custom in-car scales, but close enough that I can test drive and/or enjoy a new car without having to touch the in-car settings, making it easier to grab a quick session or let friends try cars I haven't touched, without a lot of fiddling around. That's a big plus for me. In fact, the differences were so minor that I actually went back and forth between my custom scales and the defaults, wondering if the ease of using the defaults was worth the slight difference in feel. In the end, I decided I'll probably use both, leaving some cars at default until I decide to get into them more.

tennenbaum

10-01-2016, 18:10

I would think otherwise. Or at least, half way otherwise. :)

I think that up to the Soft Cliping module, there's no maximum sum of forces for linear modules(Stuff before Soft Clipping, RAs are an exception. RAG = gain(>1<) only, RAB = time constant, RAC = hole in my theory). After that, tools are normalised between 0 and 1.

The easiest way to see it with a given sum of forces that is clipped without SC will not be when enough SC is applied. From my understanding, SC only compress, it doesn't interpolate. If values above 1 would be clipped, when applying SC, the flat line would only be lower, but it would be still flat. It's not the case right now. When the FFB signal goes above 1 is still there to be processed by Soft Clipping.

Btw, big props to everyone in this thread! Nobody's trowing fruits at each others and the tone of discussions is still awesome after a whole lot of posts. It's refreshing to see something like this!

Keep it up guys! :D

Guys you must think i'm obsessed with number-crunching. And YES: thanks to all of you for the candid attitude in this forum.

You're right there seems to be some headroom >1.00 before reaching Soft Clipper. I played around a bit with signals between 0.26 and 4.00 (e.g. Fy 200 and master scale 200). Since SCHI and SCFO are still a mystery to me, the results of my testing are... hhm, fuzzy:

With RAG/RAC and Softclipper turned off, tested with one single force values > 0.26 start to clip. (E.g. spindle master scale 100 and Fy 26, and TireForce 100). Al least this seems to be a given. (????)

With Softclipper it seemed to me that you can "catch" still healthy signals with a strength of approx. 1.50. Or is there more headroom ?

But even a headroom higher than 0.25 (normalized 1.00 ?) that goes up to 1.50 (normalized 6.00 ?) makes a huge difference. If that's true, my previous assumptions are pretty flawed. With a dynamic range that is perhaps internally 6 times higher than i thought i have to do some homework and re-edits, to say the least... ;) That would explain why e.g. GrimeyDogs and Haidens settings with high master-scales work so well, with RAC doing obviously also a good job to get the larger headroom down to 1.00.

What do we have to do that the devs will finally open their books... :D:D

For now I give up my reverse-engineering, and run some laps...

Rs60

10-01-2016, 18:55

I also realized that my globals work pretty well with the default in-car settings (if you turn the Wheel FF back to 100). Not quite as much detail as my custom in-car scales, but close enough that I can test drive and/or enjoy a new car without having to touch the in-car settings, making it easier to grab a quick session or let friends try cars I haven't touched, without a lot of fiddling around. That's a big plus for me. In fact, the differences were so minor that I actually went back and forth between my custom scales and the defaults, wondering if the ease of using the defaults was worth the slight difference in feel. In the end, I decided I'll probably use both, leaving some cars at default until I decide to get into them more.

I noticed the same thing. At first I wondered about the much higher master, but tried it and it wasn't as different as I was expecting. The convenience of using the default works for me for the same reasons. Curious to see your take on sop diff. I usually just add same master and diff at 100.

poirqc

10-01-2016, 19:10

Guys you must all think i'm obsessed with number-crunching.

You're right there seems to be some headroom >1.00 before reaching Soft Clipper. I played around a bit with signals between 0.26 and 4.00 (e.g. Fy 200 and master scale 200). Since i can't figure out how SCHI and SCFO work, the results of my testing left me with nothing more than a vague feeling:

With RAG/RAC and Softclipper turned off, with one single test-force > 0.26 you start already to clip. E.g. spindle master scale 100 and Fy 26, and TireForce 100. With Softclipper it seemed to me that you can "catch" still healthy signals up to 1.50 - 2.00. Or is there more headroom ?

But even a headroom higher than 0,26, that goes up to 1.50 makes a huge difference. (Normalized 1.00 - 6.00?) If that's true, and it looks like, my previous assumptions are flawed, and i have to do some homework... ;)

Btw: I always wondered anyway why clipping - without SC and RC - starts with 0.26 (instead of >1.00). TF set to 100.

I'm just extremely curious to see hopefully the solution of the riddle finally. It's probably stunning simple.

For now I give up my reverse-engineering, and run some laps...:cool:

I don't mind the number crunching at all! I'm actually jealous that i can't easily explain things with numbers as easy as you! :)

When i played with SC, i didn't go until the end of the SC scale, but it goes up to 10 for both SCHI and SCFO...
With SCHI and SCFO @ 5,0 / 10,0
I just tried to crank everything to their max(TF 200, Master Scale 200, FxyzMz 200, SoP Scale 200, SoPL & D 200) to see if SC could catch everything. Well, don't try this at home kids... My wheel is hooked to a PVC rack, everything started to shake like an earthquake! I didn't even try to get tires under load. I think my G27 would have exploded!

I lowered everything (TF 100, Master Scale 100, FxyzMz 100, SoP Scale 100, SoPL & D 100) with SCHI and SCFO @ 5,0 / 10,0 still. I could clearly see that everything was clearly compressed around 0,5 in the telemetry hud. It didn't went above 1 in the hud but you could clearly see everything was too compressed.

Even if SC can catch forces way above 1, from a practical PoV, it may not work well...
I see this a bit similar to SG above 1. Using just a small tad of SG above 1 can give some desired results. Using way too much of SG > 1 and clipping occurs right away. Let's say everything is good, but you want to feel forces just a bit stronger, you could crank SG just a tad.

Same thing may apply to SC. If with a given balance of forces from wheel, there's a small touch of clipping, SC can bring things below 1. But it's probably not optimal to use more SC just to crank wheel forces more?

About clipping without RA ans SC, i've always wondered if the max forces are the same for every wheel?

You're right about the testing. As soon as i'm fed with FFB testing, it's back to my working setup and i race again!

poirqc

10-01-2016, 19:20

I noticed the same thing. At first I wondered about the much higher master, but tried it and it wasn't as different as I was expecting. The convenience of using the default works for me for the same reasons. Curious to see your take on sop diff. I usually just add same master and diff at 100.

The first time i started to play with SoP, i was already using Jack's classic files. When disabling SoP altogether, i could see how much work he spent on his files because the front wheel balance was very good.

Back to SoP, with any given balance of SoP, play with various amout of SoP Scale against Spindle Master Scale. For RWD cars, if there's too much SoP, front wheel understeer feeling will get drowned at some point. As you lower SoP Scale, understeering will gradualy show itself. When doing that, i like to lower SoP Scale until i feel front wheel understeering just enough to keep as much SoP Scale i can.

This give just enough feeling of what both the front and rear of the car is doing.

The ratio of front and rear wheel forces will changed based on the type of car you're driving(Road, GT, LMP, etc...)

Haiden

10-01-2016, 21:11

Back to SoP, with any given balance of SoP, play with various amout of SoP Scale against Spindle Master Scale. For RWD cars, if there's too much SoP, front wheel understeer feeling will get drowned at some point. As you lower SoP Scale, understeering will gradualy show itself. When doing that, i like to lower SoP Scale until i feel front wheel understeering just enough to keep as much SoP Scale i can.

This give just enough feeling of what both the front and rear of the car is doing.

The ratio of front and rear wheel forces will changed based on the type of car you're driving(Road, GT, LMP, etc...)

That's why I dropped SoP. But I now question the rule about keeping the Master Scale and SoP Scale the same. I think that's part of the problem. I accepted that rule early on, because I didn't know better. It came from the devs, and I never really gave it much thought later down the road. But now that I have a better of understanding of how these scales work and influence one another, I don't see why the two scales have to be the same. In fact, it would seem that lowering the SoP Scale in relation to the Master, would help prevent SoP from interfering.

poirqc

10-01-2016, 21:28

That's why I dropped SoP. But I now question the rule about keeping the Master Scale and SoP Scale the same. I think that's part of the problem. I accepted that rule early on, because I didn't know better. It came from the devs, and I never really gave it much thought later down the road. But now that I have a better of understanding of how these scales work and influence one another, I don't see why the two scales have to be the same. In fact, it would seem that lowering the SoP Scale in relation to the Master, would help prevent SoP from interfering.

Like tennenbaum well explained, tuning the FFB wouldn't change the core caracteristic of a given car.

pCars FFB gives lots of lattitude to the user. I don't think the Devs sent a wrong information. It depends on what the user want to acheive. It's about finding the balance betweem an informative FFB and an immersive FFB.

In a real car, you can't change the force comming thru the stering rack. There's no need to change them because you feel lots of stuff from other parts of your body. When someone "only" has a wheel, changing the ratios makes sense. Someone with a 100k $ actuated rig would probably find the 1:1 Front Rear ratio good because there's hardware to simulate it.

tennenbaum

11-01-2016, 07:07

I don't mind the number crunching at all! I'm actually jealous that i can't easily explain things with numbers as easy as you! :)

When i played with SC, i didn't go until the end of the SC scale, but it goes up to 10 for both SCHI and SCFO...
With SCHI and SCFO @ 5,0 / 10,0
I just tried to crank everything to their max(TF 200, Master Scale 200, FxyzMz 200, SoP Scale 200, SoPL & D 200) to see if SC could catch everything. Well, don't try this at home kids... My wheel is hooked to a PVC rack, everything started to shake like an earthquake! I didn't even try to get tires under load. I think my G27 would have exploded!

I lowered everything (TF 100, Master Scale 100, FxyzMz 100, SoP Scale 100, SoPL & D 100) with SCHI and SCFO @ 5,0 / 10,0 still. I could clearly see that everything was clearly compressed around 0,5 in the telemetry hud. It didn't went above 1 in the hud but you could clearly see everything was too compressed.

Even if SC can catch forces way above 1, from a practical PoV, it may not work well...
I see this a bit similar to SG above 1. Using just a small tad of SG above 1 can give some desired results. Using way too much of SG > 1 and clipping occurs right away. Let's say everything is good, but you want to feel forces just a bit stronger, you could crank SG just a tad.

Same thing may apply to SC. If with a given balance of forces from wheel, there's a small touch of clipping, SC can bring things below 1. But it's probably not optimal to use more SC just to crank wheel forces more?

About clipping without RA ans SC, i've always wondered if the max forces are the same for every wheel?

You're right about the testing. As soon as i'm fed with FFB testing, it's back to my working setup and i race again!

we will puzzle it out! :)

i tested it the same way, but used only one of the Fxyzm forces to make it easier to interpret the results. No matter if the Fx Fy Fz summarize like direction-vectors, and no matter how the devs add Fm and SoP to the total computation, even by setting all the forces (Fx Fy Fz Fm SoP-Lat SoP-Diff) and bundling-multipliers (masters) to 100, instead of 200 (!) you end up with a minimum of approx. 1.70.

For this minimal number i do vector summarization of FxFyFz max values of 100. Since i don't know how the devs add Fm and SoPs, i leave that beside and define the minimal number by Fxyz only. To compare: If you set Fxyz each to 200 (2.00) then theoretically the vector sum reaches approx. 3.40. Setting the master spindle scale to 200 (2.00) you end up with close to 7.00. Setting TireForce to 200 (2.00) you reach 14.00 ;-)

I think i can say with some belief that there is definitely no headroom of 14.00.

But when you test it with e.g. Fy 150 only and spindle master scale 100 (or any other combination of forces and multiplier that result to such value of 1.50) it looks like as if the Soft Clipper and/or RAC can still deal with that value. (Under the premiss that you set TF to 100).

That is insofar remarkable, because without SoftClipper and without RAC, the HUD FFB graph definitely shows that you clip already when you set e.g. Fy to 0.26 and master spindle scale to 100. So you even clip at 0.26 ! 0.26 compared to 1.50 is a huge difference.

If you or others could confirm what i just assume, we'd progress a lot. The question is of some interest, because otherwise there isn't an explanation why settings with a spindle master scale settings between 70 and 100 and typical JS Fxyzm tweak values work well with no or only little clipping IF RAC is set to its default 0.96. Set RAC off and you're definitely clipping.

Why did the defs set the in-car FFB settings to master spindle scale 26 and the Fxyzm to 100/100/100/100, and some cars SoP master scale to 26 as well. ? And RAC to 0,96 (and SC off)?

Worst case (rumbling while breaking full speed over curbs in a tight corner, therefore creating forces that fill up Fxyz to 100% at setting 100), you end up with max 1.72 if vector summarization, or 3.00 when added linear. Add SoP with possibly max. 1.00 - 3.00 and Fm with another max 1.00. No matter how the devs summarize internally these forces its very likely you are in a corridor of somewhere between 3,72 and max. 7.00. Multiply by .26 (default master spindle scale) you get approx. values roughly between 1.00 and 2.00. I believe that is the headroom corridor the devs set. Doing so it needs the RAC set by default to a value around 1.00. But even when RAC is turned off, it's still kind of fool proof - as long as you don't dial in to much SoP, or set master scale to high values and Fxyzm to higher values than 100.

GrimeyDog was recently bringing up the question too, if there is 100+ ("overdrive") possible.

It's nothing that moves the world, but when aiming for cheat sheet for starters, I'd feel better knowing about the corridor in which forces can be set...

BTW: the output of the console or pc is always a normalized value.

the absolute strength of torque of the different wheels solely depend on their hardware. The game can't define an absolute torque. However the game can define a digital value of max. 100%. That happens when setting the master FFB (volume knob) to 100, and assuming that the signal chain delivers 1.00 (100) to that last amplifying stage, then you get a normalized maximum interface output value expressed in a bit quantization. And that max value can "overwhelm" a wheel.

Since console wheels must digest what they get (without having an input controller, while PC wheels use their driver software to adjust input) that 100% interface signal strength can stress the wheel. That's why e.g. the game's default FFB for PS4 is set to 75. Assuming that the majority of consumer wheels will reach their hardware based saturation maximum at that value. In other words, setting in game FFB to a 100 it's very likely that most wheels clip (and could get fried after a while ;-).

I don't want to be over-explanatory, but clippings / saturations can be of all kind of nature: mathematical, computational, digital, analogue-electrical or mechanical. And: If a clipping happens once in a stage of signals (even over different stages going from math to mechanical via different interfaces), the clipping won't disappear any more. That's why it's so important to avoid clipping at any stage and most important at the very beginning (which is Fxyzm and master spindle scale ;-).

However saying you should avoid clipping is only one flip-side of the coin:

Knowing the rules, you can break them: You can actually use clipping (at any wanted stage) as a kind of limiter as long as the clipping doesn't cause distortions, or fries some hardware! As a matter of fact most gamers (to my knowledge) have set their values - on purpose or not - in a way that the get some clipping/saturation. Because when cornering strongly a saturated wheel feels natural and not unrealistic. Even more, being compressed or mostly fully saturated with the higher forces lifts the weaker forces too. Which gives you more road feel, while having less differentiation in the higher range of forces is ok, because you don't need to feel subtleties with the strong forces. Insofar an idea of how relative and absolute values play together is a key to a deeper understanding how advanced sims like pCars function. Of course you can enjoy the game with or without knowing how it works. But discussing it in the forum is a kind of fun too.

Gamer82678

11-01-2016, 09:36

Telemetry HUD on shared YouTube broadcast vid: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26120-Zero-to-Hero-Trophy-and-general-Playstation-Trophy-thread&p=1209402&viewfull=1#post1209402

Thrustmaster T300 RS with F1 Wheel Ad On T3PA Pro Pedals.

Force Feedback was sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat ! :cool:

Love You Guys Here ! :cool:

Happy New Year ! :cool:

Haiden

11-01-2016, 12:28

Since console wheels must digest what they get (without having an input controller, while PC wheels use their driver software to adjust input) that 100% interface signal strength can stress the wheel. That's why e.g. the game's default FFB for PS4 is set to 75. Assuming that the majority of consumer wheels will reach their hardware based saturation maximum at that value. In other words, setting in game FFB to a 100 it's very likely that most wheels clip (and could get fried after a while ;-).

Some Fanatec wheels, like the CSW-v2 have onboard settings that can be used to attenuate the game's final output, like a PC driver control panel. My globals (and I think Grimey's) are based on that. I run the wheel at 85, but even with TF/FF at 100/75 and the in-car Master set to 50, I don't feel any clipping when I run the wheel at 100.

When I was using my TX/T300, my experience with Soft Clipping was that the compressed forces never felt as good as the uncompressed. The wheel felt heavier, but also like there was loss of range/detail due to the compression. For that reason, I tuned by globals to stay within the wheel's range without Soft Clipping. IMO, soft clipping is a last resort. I'd rather adjust the TF/FF balance. In fact, I'd recommend first find a good tune that doesn't use SC, before adding it. That way, you have something to compare it to. Otherwise, you'll never know the difference.

tennenbaum

11-01-2016, 13:06

Some Fanatec wheels, like the CSW-v2 have onboard settings that can be used to attenuate the game's final output, like a PC driver control panel. My globals (and I think Grimey's) are based on that. I run the wheel at 85, but even with TF/FF at 100/75 and the in-car Master set to 50, I don't feel any clipping when I run the wheel at 100.

When I was using my TX/T300, my experience with Soft Clipping was that the compressed forces never felt as good as the uncompressed. The wheel felt heavier, but also like there was loss of range/detail due to the compression. For that reason, I tuned by globals to stay within the wheel's range without Soft Clipping. IMO, soft clipping is a last resort. I'd rather adjust the TF/FF balance. In fact, I'd recommend first find a good tune that doesn't use SC, before adding it. That way, you have something to compare it to. Otherwise, you'll never know the difference.

Good point about the use of Soft Clip. I'm so interested in RAG/RAC and Soft Clipper because of a post from bmanic.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1145919#post1145919

I tried his settings and liked it very much. I also found his "fairly tiny signal" approach logical:

"
(...) I push a fairly tiny signal into the Relative Adjust system, this means I set TF to around 20 or 30 (or in my case I set the individual Master Scale on the various cars to around 6 to 12) and I then crank up Relative Adjust to 140 or so. I then set Relative Adjust Bleed to 0.25 (quarter of a second bleed time) and set Relative Adjust Clamp to 200 (to avoid the "clamp bug" that seems to happen with larger bleed values).

If you leave it as it is you'll have really weak forces, so what do I do? I use Soft Clip (half input) to bump up the low level forces to the range I want. In this case it's usually set to 0.2 or 0.3 (at this moment I have it at 0.2). Finally I set Soft Clip (full output) so that it further shapes the top peaks so that I have virtually zero chance of clipping. Usually I set it to around 1.79 or so. The last step is then to use Steering Gain parameter to bring up the overall FFB so that all my forces are right at the ceiling of clipping. (...)
"
Knowing about his approach it gets obvious how much different it is to approaches with high in-car spindle-master-scales in the range >70 and TF set to 100. When I saw bmanic's setting first, i thought that cannot work. That he would indeed "choke" the signals. But his settings works.

Since i tried your settings as well, and i also liked it, it made me even more curious what's going in pCars "black-box". Especially the question if there might be an invisible "100+ overdrive" headroom, as GrimeyDog called it.

And... I'd love to have a CSW-v2... :)

Haiden

11-01-2016, 14:23

Good point about the use of Soft Clip. I'm so interested in RAG/RAC and Soft Clipper because of a post from bmanic.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1145919#post1145919

I tried his settings and liked it very much. I also found his "fairly tiny signal" approach logical:

Knowing about his approach it gets obvious how much different it is to approaches with high in-car spindle-master-scales in the range >70 and TF set to 100. When I saw bmanic's setting first, i thought that cannot work. That he would indeed "choke" the signals. But his settings works.

Since i tried your settings as well, and i also liked it, it made me even more curious what's going in pCars "black-box". Especially the question if there might be an invisible "100+ overdrive" headroom, as GrimeyDog called it.

And... I'd love to have a CSW-v2... :)

That is a pretty different approach. The thing about the PCars FFB system is, it can be configured numerous ways to produce a good feel. In the end, I think how you go about, depends on how your brain's wired, and which method/path you take when learning how all the options interact with each other. If you've been exploring the options, leaving Soft Clipping for later, then it's probably less likely you'll find that as useful when you get to, because it doesn't work with the foundation you've already laid. I like keeping it simple. For me, the less overlap (forces shaping other forces) the better and easier it is. But there's are obviously other ways. :)

I ended up lowering my spindle master to 50. I was finding that, with the higher master setting, some of the other scales in the Spindle became problematic when they were set too high. For my personal tastes, I think I prefer the scales to all be within 15-20 increments of each other. That seems to give the wheel a fuller, smoother feel. The detail is there, but it just feels less clunky/grindy/chopping (don't really know how to describe it). One of the reasons I wanted a CSW-v2 was because it's smooth. It seemed counterproductive to not use a tune that allows that smoothness to come through.

Regarding the 100+ setting. I'm not so sure it's as much an overdrive mode as it is a setting for high-end direct drive wheels, like an Accuforce. It makes sense that SMS--thinking more about hardcore sim racers, than casual gamers--would leave some extra room for high-end hardware. I don't really think it's for the low-mid consumer range.

wahwah

11-01-2016, 14:38

Great to see this thread is still going! I haven't posted in a while because I found a setup that works for me several months ago and have been having too much fun driving! It's good to see that the realisation has finally landed that the in-game FFB master on consoles should not be set to 100 as suggested for PC players, but should be left at the default setting for the specific wheel, as Tim Mann from SMS pointed out many months ago, and has since been confirmed by Thrustmaster. That should save a few T300s from going into their head spinning routine!

Many interesting approaches here, from Grimey's total feel approach to tennenbaum's dazzling mathematics. What I settled on months ago is a setup that is so close to the Default Global setting for the T300 that it is really just a matter of a few small tweaks here and there and it's done, with a similar approach to Jack's Classic in-car files. As opposed to the first couple of patches, the game's global defaults are now good enough to recommend to any new player, without confusing the daylights out of them but still providing a great feeling result. I have subtracted a little from both the input (TF) and output (SG) to soften the feel a little, without drastically affecting the 'threshold' of the compression stages or the dynamic range. Combined with the correct setting of the FFB master, this also ensures a lack of clipping, either at the FFB monitor or physically at the wheel. Otherwise, the only other considerable change I've made is non-FFB related, an increase to the wheel sensitivity for personal preference.

The Global settings look like this. (T300RS/PS4)

FFB Master 75

Tire Force 90

PWM 0.00
PWMS 0.00
WPS 0.04

DRR 0.02
DRF 0.02

RAG 98
RAB 0.10
RAC 96

Scoop Knee 0.70
Scoop Reduc 0.15

Soft Clip HI -----
Soft Clip FO -----

Steering Gain 0.90

As you can see, very close to the Default settings, at least for the T300. I still find Jack's general sense of in-car forces balancing to be very usable in most cases, with a tweak here or there as required. If anything, I tend to back off a touch from his Fx, Fz and Sop Diff settings. (Classic)

All in all, not a setup I can take any credit for, but instead give credit to SMS for eventually making the default global settings functional, and fun!

GrimeyDog

11-01-2016, 16:32

Some Fanatec wheels, like the CSW-v2 have onboard settings that can be used to attenuate the game's final output, like a PC driver control panel. My globals (and I think Grimey's) are based on that. I run the wheel at 85, but even with TF/FF at 100/75 and the in-car Master set to 50, I don't feel any clipping when I run the wheel at 100.

When First Tweeking My First Goal was to Find the Right in Game Master FFB for the V2....I Chose 35 Game Master FFB because it gave Me Pleanty of Power with Great Feel from the V2... With My Tweek i find if i set Game Master FFB over 35 i Lose subtle Feel in the wheel because it gets drowned out by the More Powerful FFB forces... I also Find that 35 keeps the wheel operating Temp below 105F° even on the Hottest days... I suggest investing in a infrared thermometer their only $35.00 US or Less... Great Tool to have when Tweeking because Equipment Temp can Reveal Flaws in the Tweek that may Not be Noticable... Ex: You can overdrive a V2 wheel with FFB input... it wont Show its self as Clipping but the wheel will Create Heat because the excess Current you feed the wheel Has to go some where...Its Grounded out and Released as Excessive Heat!!! This will Have a Long Term Negative effect on your wheel...Remember the Belts inside the wheel are Rubber the Excess Heat Can Cause them to Stretch and Become Brittle Prematurely... or the Ecessive Heat Can simply just burn out the Electronics.... under powering your wheel can Burn out or Damage the wheels electronics also.... Its all about a Happy Medium.

When i was setting my Tweek i was using on Wheel FFB 100 and FOR 100 so that i could feel every effect at its strongest Level... I can use 100 on wheel FFB to Drive with but its just too Strong for Long Races... i use 75 FFB on wheel as My Standard FFB...Yes i Can Turn down my Masters a bit and use FFB 100 on wheel all the Time but i dont want to use the Wheel at 100% FFB output All the time it may or May Not Cause Premature wear... Note FFB 100 on wheel Makes More Heat also... i found the Happy Medium that works and Keeps wheel Temp Low 85° to 95° Even after Long Races and Hours of use.... I only use FFB 100 on wheel when i Have Friends over... LOL..The wheel Strength always WOWS them... LOL

I've been Testing Lowering the "MZ" to 70 and setting Wheel FFB 85 pretty Much same Feel.... Cant Tell fo sure PCars FFB Still Gets Buggy when you Keep Changing Settings Back and Forth to Test and it always results in Having to Restart the PS4.... Blaaaagh!!!!

In the Beginning when i was using Game Master 100 my wheel would Run 135° to 145° IMO thats too Hot!!! I contacted Fanatec they said it was Fine but No Need to Push the Equip at that Temp and i Can get the Same Power and Even More Feel at a Much Lower operating Temp.

Edit: The FOR Feature on te V2 wheel can be used to Lessen the FFB Effects Ex: Rumble Strips, Bumps,Curbs without affecting the overal wheel Weight.... I Keep FOR at 100 and adjust the FFB Effects Feel from the Game only.

I use No Damping, Smoothin, in My Tweek IMO Those settings Kill the Very Forces you are Tring to Feel.

Soft/Full Clip you dont Need them if you set your Global settings Right.

GrimeyDog

11-01-2016, 17:01

Regarding the 100+ setting. I'm not so sure it's as much an overdrive mode as it is a setting for high-end direct drive wheels, like an Accuforce. It makes sense that SMS--thinking more about hardcore sim racers, than casual gamers--would leave some extra room for high-end hardware. I don't really think it's for the low-mid consumer range.

Thats always been My Question... What are the Masters that Go above 100 truely = to???

100 = 50% Total Power or 100 = 100% Power, 101+ = Overdrive???... I could Never a figure this out....The V2 is Sooo Strong with 100 Masters That it will wear you out in a 20 lap Race!!!
Higher end Wheels like Frex, ECCI, Accuforce would Be just undriveable with Masters set at 200!!! you May Not Even be able to Turn the weel!!!

Gamer82678

11-01-2016, 17:34

All I can say is that with the Thrustmaster T300 RS that I have my experience is this.
I think 75 FFB is OK but, can be a bit too much.
I can play Project CARS for long periods of time with 30 FFB without the internal fan coming on with good FFB response.
Deadzone Removal: 0.27
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.0279
Scoop Knee: 0.51
Scoop Knee Reduction: 0.10
Steering Gain: 1.00

Tire Force: 75

This is on PS4. I can't remember what firmware upgrade from Thrustmaster but, it seems as though it increased the torque strength. Might have been V24. I'll have the wheel for a year next month.

Love You Guys Here.

God Bless.

Haiden

11-01-2016, 17:39

When i was setting my Tweek i was using on Wheel FFB 100 and FOR 100 so that i could feel every effect at its strongest Level... I can use 100 on wheel FFB to Drive with but its just too Strong for Long Races... i use 75 FFB on wheel as My Standard FFB...Yes i Can Turn down my Masters a bit and use FFB 100 on wheel all the Time but i dont want to use the Wheel at 100% FFB output All the time it may or May Not Cause Premature wear... Note FFB 100 on wheel Makes More Heat also... i found the Happy Medium that works and Keeps wheel Temp Low 85° to 95° Even after Long Races and Hours of use.... I only use FFB 100 on wheel when i Have Friends over... LOL..The wheel Strength always WOWS them... LOL

Thats always been My Question... What are the Masters that Go above 100 truely = to???

100 = 50% Total Power or 100 = 100% Power, 101+ = Overdrive???... I could Never a figure this out....The V2 is Sooo Strong with 100 Masters That it will wear you out in a 20 lap Race!!!
Higher end Wheels like Frex, ECCI, Accuforce would Be just undriveable with Masters set at 200!!! you May Not Even be able to Turn the weel!!!

I agree. I didn’t mean to imply that I ran the wheel at 100 with my custom in-car settings. I actually meant, “If I run the wheel…”.
When my in-car master was at 70, I ran the wheel at 75. I’m now running a lower Master Scale (50), and run the wheel at 85. The only time I run the wheel at 100 is when I’m running the default FFB in-car, which uses a very low Master Scale of 26.

Yeah... that's an interesting question. I haven't really given it much thought, though, because strength is strength. Whether 100 is 100% or 50% doesn't really seem to matter, because it's about how it feels. If 100 is too heavy, I'm not sure what finding out it's actually only 50% does, you know? :)

I can't even imagine what 200 feels like, but I know that in RL, anyone that's ever driven an F1 car, or tried a real professional team simulator, says the wheels are extremely heavy.

It might also be for people that are tuning from a different approach/mindset, like Bmanic, pushing weaker signals through, and then amplifying them. In that case, 100 might not be enough. Again, just guessing. I honestly don't know why it goes to 200.

spacepadrille

11-01-2016, 17:59

Higher end Wheels like Frex, ECCI, Accuforce would Be just undriveable with Masters set at 200!!! you May Not Even be able to Turn the weel!!!

I just had a look at the accuforce.... Wow ! What a dream ! http://simxperience.com/products/accessories/accuforcesteering/accuforcepro.aspx

GrimeyDog

11-01-2016, 18:17

GrimeyDog

11-01-2016, 20:22

I just had a look at the accuforce.... Wow ! What a dream ! http://simxperience.com/products/accessories/accuforcesteering/accuforcepro.aspx

Too Bad they don't work with PS4, XB1 i would Have 1 allready!!!
I wouldn't Buy 1 just for PC use only for that kind of $$$ because i do More console Racing right Now....it would be too big of a Head Ache to take it off My set up Every time i wanted to Switch Platforms...

Im Waiting Hoping that Fanatec come out with a Direct Drive wheel thats Cross Platform Compatible... as Long as it uses the same Wheel Rims i would get it faster than a Heart Beats!!!! I would be up all Night waiting to push the Button to get in on the First Order!!!

GrimeyDog

11-01-2016, 20:35

I agree. I didn’t mean to imply that I ran the wheel at 100 with my custom in-car settings. I actually meant, “If I run the wheel…”.

I know what you ment...LOL... Its just Not worth going back and Readjusting all the settings to use 100% on wheel FFB... i use My same #1 on wheel FFB slot for every game Pcars, GT6, Assetto Corsa, FM5 & 6 , Pcars for XB1 and i don't change a thing... if i remember i may adjust the ABS settings but most of the time i drive with the same wheel settings... i used to forget which slot on the wheel was for which Game... LOL... Not to metion after updating the wheel if you dont have your wheel settings for a specific game written down your Screwed...LOL

Haiden

11-01-2016, 20:49

I know what you ment...LOL... Its just Not worth going back and Readjusting all the settings to use 100% on wheel FFB... i use My same #1 on wheel FFB slot for every game Pcars, GT6, Assetto Corsa, FM5 & 6 , Pcars for XB1 and i don't change a thing... if i remember i may adjust the ABS settings but most of the time i drive with the same wheel settings... i used to forget which slot on the wheel was for which Game... LOL... Not to metion after updating the wheel if you dont have your wheel settings for a specific game written down your Screwed...LOL

I play PCars, FM6, and F1 2015. I need a profile for each. I leave the force at 100 for FM6, and then use the in-game slider to control the strength. Might just be me, but I wasn't sure if the wheel's attenuation would provide the same feel as adjusting the strength in game. But with F1 2015 it's not even an option. The game uses the "Auto" feature. If your wheel Sensitivity isn't set to "Auto" and the FF set to 100, the wheel feels like it wheels 100 pounds. Since I have the FF set to 85 for PCars, if I don't change to the other profile when loading F1, it's pretty much to heavy to play and would definitely burn out the motor. I could be wrong, but I think FM6 was made to use the "Auto" feature, too. But I don't think it responds as negatively as F1 when you don't have on.

skoader

12-01-2016, 01:24

we will puzzle it out! :)

i tested it the same way, but used only one of the Fxyzm forces to make it easier to interpret the results. No matter if the Fx Fy Fz summarize like direction-vectors, and no matter how the devs add Fm and SoP to the total computation, even by setting all the forces (Fx Fy Fz Fm SoP-Lat SoP-Diff) and bundling-multipliers (masters) to 100, instead of 200 (!) you end up with a minimum of approx. 1.70.

For this minimal number i do vector summarization of FxFyFz max values of 100. Since i don't know how the devs add Fm and SoPs, i leave that beside and define the minimal number by Fxyz only. To compare: If you set Fxyz each to 200 (2.00) then theoretically the vector sum reaches approx. 3.40. Setting the master spindle scale to 200 (2.00) you end up with close to 7.00. Setting TireForce to 200 (2.00) you reach 14.00 ;-)

I think i can say with some belief that there is definitely no headroom of 14.00.

But when you test it with e.g. Fy 150 only and spindle master scale 100 (or any other combination of forces and multiplier that result to such value of 1.50) it looks like as if the Soft Clipper and/or RAC can still deal with that value. (Under the premiss that you set TF to 100).

That is insofar remarkable, because without SoftClipper and without RAC, the HUD FFB graph definitely shows that you clip already when you set e.g. Fy to 0.26 and master spindle scale to 100. So you even clip at 0.26 ! 0.26 compared to 1.50 is a huge difference.

If you or others could confirm what i just assume, we'd progress a lot. The question is of some interest, because otherwise there isn't an explanation why settings with a spindle master scale settings between 70 and 100 and typical JS Fxyzm tweak values work well with no or only little clipping IF RAC is set to its default 0.96. Set RAC off and you're definitely clipping.

I'm not sure if you're assuming that the Fxyz components are all coming out of the physics system at a value of 1.0 for the sake of this excercise, or if we have a fundamentally different view?

In the case of Fy clipping at 0.26, this is my understanding -

STM Fy(4.0) * TireForce(1.0) * FyScale(0.26) * MasterScale(1.0) = 1.04.

Can you clarify?

GrimeyDog

12-01-2016, 04:11

Maybe im Just Not the Brightest Star in the Sky... But im Still Lost as to What Feel or What Exactly is the Goal of doing all the Math...Yes i can Follow the Math but im Lost as to what the end Result Goal is...

I have Spent Enough time with Math Equations and Sim Games it just Never works out right. There are just Too Many Variables that we dont Know... Ex: To Really Calculate The FFB Forces in PCars Mathematicaly it seems that you would First Need to Know Exactly what they Calculated Gravity at Ex: How much force does it take to Lift the wheel off the Gound, Then you Need to Know what is the Compression/ Expansion Force Value for Damper, Spring, Shocks per unit of Movement as Calculated by the Game... Then when thats all Added up you Need to Calculate the weight of the Car × Gravity × Down Force Generated at increasing increments according to Speed × The Effect all these forces have when Cornering Low and High Speed.....IMO if you gonna Do it by Math Do it all the way... But again its too Many unknown Variables... and No one Knows the exact #'s besides SMS and they aint Talking...LOL!!!

Who came up with the Base # for the Math formula??? Seems to Me that SMS just threw the In Car FFB on the Cars with No Rhyme or Reason... IMO it was just a setting to give general Feel and was Not Mathematicaly or Scientificaly engineered for best feel of any kind or Sort. JMO.

Edit: Also because i just Tweek by Feel using the Sliders as Volume Controls to get best FFB Feel, i dont have to do any Steering Ratio Calculations/Adjust Arm angle ETC and i get what looks and Feels to be 1 to 1 Steering... My Driver hands on Steering wheel Pretty Much exactly match where my hands are at Per wheel movement... while it may Not be Exact due to input lag its Really Really Close!!!

IMO The Stock suspensions in PCars are Very Good with the Right wheel Tweek.

Haiden

12-01-2016, 04:29

Maybe im Just Not the Brightest Star in the Sky... But im Still Lost as to What Feel or What Exactly is the Goal of doing all the Math...Yes i can Follow the Math but im Lost as to what the end Result Goal is...

I have Spent Enough time with Math Equations and Sim Games it just Never works out right. There are just Too Many Variables that we dont Know... Ex: To Really Calculate The FFB Forces in PCars Mathematicaly it seems that you would First Need to Know Exactly what they Calculated Gravity at Ex: How much force does it take to Lift the wheel off the Gound, Then you Need to Know what is the Compression/ Expansion Force Value for Damper, Spring, Shocks per unit of Movement as Calculated by the Game... Then when thats all Added up you Need to Calculate the weight of the Car × Gravity × Down Force Generated at increasing increments according to Speed × The Effect all these forces have when Cornering Low and High Speed.....IMO if you gonna Do it by Math Do it all the way... But again its too Many unknown Variables... and No one Knows the exact #'s besides SMS and they aint Talking...LOL!!!

Who came up with the Base # for the Math formula??? Seems to Me that SMS just threw the In Car FFB on the Cars with No Rhyme or Reason... IMO it was just a setting to give general Feel and was Not Mathematicaly or Scientificaly engineered for best feel of any kind or Sort. JMO.

I agree on the math. I can follow it. I just don't see what I'm supposed to do with the knowledge. And there are too many unknowns. Besides, the end result that we're looking for is a good feel in the wheel. Math doesn't directly equate to a feeling. You still need to test through trial and error to get the feel in the wheel. And you don't need to run through the equations for that. Like Grimey said, SMS has already done the math. What you're basically doing above, is back-engineering SMS' work. As a user, we just need a basic understanding of what the scales do and how they influence the forces we're feeling. Well...I should say...that's all I need to know. I can't speak for others. If you're able to somehow equate the maths to wheel feel, more power to you. But I just ran a 25 lap race in a Formula A at Brands Hatch, and the car felt marvelous. No math required...LOL

My problem is, I can follow the math. I just don't know what to do with the results. And, regardless of what the calculation reveal, I still need to test them by feel.

gotdirt410sprintcar

12-01-2016, 05:35

Stock suspension is for little boys grimey lol. But i do race thar way when i run with snail, W.R.R.C.

skoader

12-01-2016, 06:44

Maybe im Just Not the Brightest Star in the Sky... But im Still Lost as to What Feel or What Exactly is the Goal of doing all the Math...Yes i can Follow the Math but im Lost as to what the end Result Goal is...
I can only speak for myself of course, but I've always been interested in how things work. Tinkering and discussing results with like-minded individuals is fun. :)
The math becomes more important when we start talking about things like the compression components. At least if you want a solid understanding of how they work. This kind of approach obviously isn't for everybody, and that's ok.

On several occasions Grimey, we've had similar conclusions but explain them with different language. For example -

Also because i just Tweek by Feel using the Sliders as Volume Controls to get best FFB Feel..

STM Fy(4.0) * TireForce(1.0) * FyScale(0.26) * MasterScale(1.0) = 1.04.
My simple formula there shows exactly what you describe. TireForce, FyScale and MasterScale work just like volume controls on the forces coming out of the tire simulation. It also shows how settings higher than 100.0 would scale up or 'overdrive' as you put it, a given force at that particular stage.

You call them volume controls, I call them multipliers. We may be looking at it a little differently, but at the end of the day we're saying the same thing. At least in this instance. :)